The EnlightenMeFree (EMF) Online Debate Forum

Lost in Space

Thanks David. Believe you knew him. I once had a dream that RSE friends were in their UG waiting for the latest foretold 'end date', the end was 'forestallled by the students changin g the timeline, but this group didn't get the message and stayed in their UG until a Lahar sealled up their air sourc...

Lost in Space

WOW! And here, having only a vague knowledge of Eckhart Tolle from speaking with people who have read his books, and having a brief glance at the write up of him on Wikipedia, I thought he was just another harmless new agey writer. "Staying in the now" sounded okay to me. Glad I was never ...

Lost in Space

My RSE friend and I met online, exchanged many emails, some phone calls, a few gifts, and actually eventually met in person and spent a few days together. I loved the guy, and he was a true friend. Originally he tried to indoctrinate me, but we agreed to disagree about certain things. He had been in...

Lost in Space

Dear Forever: I think Joe makes some valid points. I guess I can't judge between spirituality, religion and cults, except in terms of results, or impact on the believer or practitioner's life. RSE could be described as a doomsday cult, for example, but so could some Christian denominations, insistin...

Lost in Space

There may have been islands which sunk into the sea 35,000 years ago. There may even have been a Lemuria. And the date humans first became what we might called civilized or technologically advanced keeps being pushed further back. We cannot state categorically that Lemuria or something like it could...

Lost in Space

In short: There really are channellers, there really are masters of light who for their own particular reasons are choosing to channel through human vessels, but give your money to our group and not to RSE. Highly interesting, Joe.

Lost in Space

This is a very interesting topic, Joe. I suppressed some objections I felt, overriding them to finishing the article. I believe that any alternative to psychiatric medications is worth exploring for sufferers of depression and anxiety. And antidepressants probably claim a lower remission rate if you...

Lost in Space

My favourite source, http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_sci.htm, has published a long paper on The Christian Science Church. This particular quote may put some concerns to rest. Healing by faith: There exists a chronic state of tension between the Church, its practitioners, and medical doctors ove...

Lost in Space

In the original post, the primary beef against the Church of Christian Science appeared to be that they encourage people to avoid traditional medical care. I was not stating anything about your particular position on the subject, David. I simply question whether Christian Science is properly placed ...

Lost in Space

Very interesting references, Joe and David. Still, I don't think it is necessarily cultish to resort to herbal remedies or to try to ward off or treat illness with diet and life style changes, or to seek to avoid surgeries that pose serious risks and offer no or slim odds for improvement. And I don'...

Lost in Space

. I suppose that is true David, but this thread is about those groups other than RSE - and looking at Christian Science in particular, I personally do not think it is any more of a cult than, say, the Catholic Church, about which there has been some debate here. They have simply tried (perhaps simil...

Lost in Space

I always thought that Christian Science was a sect of Christianity, like Quakers. Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses also eschew at least some aspects of conventional medical treatment. So do holistic health practitioners, herbalists, natural hygenists and many practitioners of Shamanism...

Lost in Space

This is so funny - not sure of relevance but really amusing. Is Ramtha supposed to have been Ramses?

Lost in Space

Meditation using candles is probably not harmful in and of itself. Even new-agey, 'Esoteric' candle rituals can be okay. But, as you suggest, Paul, it's a question of duration - even my new agey meditation school, when I was in it, suggested cutting such practices short after half an hour and stress...

Lost in Space

"William H." has selected targets to attack in the sphere of so called pseudoscience and has selected, in this case, What the Bleep Do We Know?, although he calls it What the F____ Do We Know. His remarks are food for thought:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlPiXNlhKFo

Lost in Space

Sure, Joe, you are way more Catholic than me and I am way more New Age than you, but I think in the larger sense we could have a meeting of the minds - I just felt that your little comment re: "a few arrow heads and spear points" or whatever it was that set me off illustrated that until we...

Lost in Space

This article from the charmingly named joyofsects.com website explains what I have been taught and believe to be true about native spirituality and touches on the question as to whether it may be shared by non-natives: As American Indians emerged during the past century from the controlling influenc...

Lost in Space

Article about Archaological evidence touching upon Shamanism and the Neanderthals

staffwww.fullcoll.edu/mmonreal/Week%208.ppt

Lost in Space

I am not saying that language is irrelevant, I am saying that a culture or civilization may persist or elements of it may persist long after that language has vanished. Also, "a few spear points" is overly dismissive of the Clovis culture for which we have evidence - see article below. As ...

Lost in Space

Sure, but there is still such a thing as a real Navaho Joe. And many with Navaho ancestry must keep one foot in the modern North American world and one in their ancestral culture. And in terms of spirituality or religion, Judaism as we may know it from historical records (the Bible, for example) has...

Lost in Space

I neither entirely disagree nor entirely agree with what you have said Joe. Unlike many cultures which have been diluted, there is a sense in which Native North American culture has been insulated from the culture at large by virtue of the fact that many 'Indians' were involuntarily and now some are...

Lost in Space

I am not sure why that link to the really good LKL show with Tim Gunn and all is included, although I did like seeing it again. I think with that you have highlighted the fact that if gay bashing went on at RSE it was little different from the attitude of substantial portions of the general public. ...

Lost in Space

A less critical approach than they used to display was what I meant, David. Sure, cite examples and links if you like.

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While not disbanding, RSE has embraced a less critical approach to gayness from what I can gather. They have stated that at least one of their teachers is openly gay. I don't know how that is reconciled in the minds of students with what has gone before, although I believe even in the olden days gay...

Lost in Space

I was not suggesting that a white person can become "indian". Rather, we know of these practices from the native people themselves, some of whom are eager to pass on their traditions to those who will listen. And many a fine oral tradition can be relayed in translation. Do you speak ancien...

Lost in Space

Okay, well, phew. Must say the lady who wrote that didn't sound like an intellectual or spiritual kinswoman of yours. While it may be true that some natives "cash in" on their spiritual traditions and some non-natives use those traditions to enrich themselves or bolster their public image ...

Lost in Space

Are you saying you agree with this writer, Joe? She does not sound like the most rational impartial critic on the block to me. She sounds small minded and bigoted, and is sneering at New Agers, White People and Christians alike. There must be a better critique to be had.

Lost in Space

Cuellarm88 As an outsider what I am hearing is this - if I was raped it was because I was afraid I would be, I entertained the thought and therefore I brought that on myself. I think what you misunderstand is reality. When I was raped, I was living in a cheap apartment in a seedy part of town with p...

Lost in Space

Sounds like "the cone of silence" from Get Smart - a cumbersome hi-tech looking contraption that, rather than working, made everything more difficult for the folks at Control, lol. Also, though, I think that just because a person has a PhD we cannot assume they are either sensible or sane.

Lost in Space

Beam me up Scotty! Lol. I think this is fascinating, Ockham. However, the science fiction of yesterday may become the science fact of today - writings of Jules Verne are eerie because many of the at the time fantastical and improbable premises of his novels turned out to be possible, like submarines...

Lost in Space

There was a documentary I saw about a man who lived on basically water for 6 months. He did receive medical supervision and intravenous vitamins. He had weighed close to 500 lbs and this was a drastic attempt to get him to lose weight before his obesity killed him. He lost half his body weight. But ...

Lost in Space

I mainly know about Canadian law, but laws in the USA are quite similar. The only grounds for divorce worth pursuing, even if there was infidelity or mental/physical/emotional abuse, is separation of one year. There is often a division of property statement required and there may still be provisions...

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I have heard about his affair and subsequent marriage to Helen. Somewhere online is a lengthy transcript of his private thoughts about that marriage and also about his military service (which was not greatly to his credit) and his struggles with fidelity, his belief in his powers and his concurrent ...

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Well, he may well have been mediocre in a number of ways. I have done some research. But if it could be said that Scientology is Sci Fi, he has succeeded in gripping the imaginations and in some cases the pocketbooks of many! I have read that he founded Scientology on a bet that he could make a reli...

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My theory, for what it's worth, is that people do not want to see this movie because they don't like the central premise that we have had to leave Earth because it has been destroyed and is unlivable and not because they have moral or philosophical issues with the central tenets of Scientology. L.Ro...

Lost in Space

P.s. I wonder what the actual number of New Agers is, and also, how many people belong to Secret Societies - of course it's difficult to get that number because, of course, membership is supposed to be a secret.

Lost in Space

Google Chesterton's "39 Articles of Doubt", I know I saw that somewhere. Also, maybe read The Man Who was Tuesday - fiction but it illustrates the writer's views pretty clearly. About Religious Orthodoxy, I think it may present a paradox in that Religion is supposed to help us make sense o...

Lost in Space

Interesting stuff, Joe. And interesting especially about the United Church needed to change with the times. I grew up in it, and I can only say if it changed with the times any more than it has already - the first religious gay marriage in Canada was performed in the United Church and they have long...

Lost in Space

This whole chain seems like a powder keg for people in recovery. It makes me cringe, and I am not even somebody who ever belonged to RSE, I just have friends who are or have been. Could we change the subject? Surely we all have more pressing concerns on EMF than what is going on at EE, for good or i...

Lost in Space

OMG, Ockham and Vanilla, is that really what it's like for my friends there?? I think I'm going to hurl.

Lost in Space

Dear HeyV: It is true I never belonged to RSE, I just have people I love who are still there. It is also true that I know what it's like to have the entire underpinnings of your life up to a certain point collapse under you; I know how it feels to be suicidally depressed; I know how agonizing it is ...

Lost in Space

This is very interesting, Ockham. I am familiar with Edgar Cayce, a member of my family is a disciple. He said a lot of things on a vast array of topics, not sure he mentioned aliens very much, he was more inclined to believe in Angels and in the divine nature of man himself, created in God's image....

Lost in Space

Hi Cheryl

I am sure your experience speaks volumes. I wonder about the effects on children of having parents who live in constant anxiety and self blame.

Lost in Space

Hi Robair I am sure the pictures do not tell the whole story, since, after all, they are posted by RSE and not some neutral observer. I was thinking, though, that I would see something here that contradicts the idea that kids are thriving at RSE or that it's, at the least, harmless for them to parti...

Lost in Space

I'm afraid that, to me, the kids look happy and appear to be taken care of by their parents! Any shots of injured or depressed or neglected kids?

Lost in Space

Prozac is not the worst anti-depressant out there, in that the side effects are not as severe as in some others. However, for some it may actually heighten the risk of suicide and increase anxiety in the early weeks of commencing it's use. There are lawsuits against the drug company that manufacture...

Lost in Space

Dear SadGrandfather: I read the journal entries and it's made me cry! I would never have treated my folks the way you have been treated. I hope somehow your daughter finds out or at least grandkids, and they realize that you are still family in spite of any differences of belief. I see from the jour...

Lost in Space

About 80 survival bunkers have been built in Columbia, and attributed to RSE students:
http://todaycolombia.com/2012/12/20/col ... ld-bunker/

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I don't see, Roy, how anything you've said could be insulting to me. About the repudiation aspect we have no disagreement, just that there are degrees of repudiation and taking it to the ultimate extreme may be a form of self-injury. I would agree about the garden variety master being a good person ...

Lost in Space

Hi RoyG From what you have said you sound rational, not rigid. My RSE friends are all still "in" or perhaps still just keeping up the appearance of not being "out", and it makes me sad to think they are caught up in something that detracts from their quality of life to a large ex...

Lost in Space

Hey, W.E., I wasn't thinking of that when I said what I said. I was thinking more that in an argument about the issues pro and con for any belief we need to take into account that rational thought and scientific inquiry can be short circuited by clinging too much to a position either way. What spran...

Lost in Space

Thanks, that is fascinating reading WE. I agree with neither of the writers in this somewhat playful little debate, lol. Which makes sense as I neither ardently agree nor am I all that skeptical. I just study religions and groups but have yet to join one. I think there is not enough evidence either ...

Lost in Space

Hi, WE Interesting little write up of Edgar Cayce. I must say, though, that naturopathy has many such detractors as does the very idea that anyone has psychic powers. Curiously, the poster is an anonymous one, and Linda Goodman is a popular astrologer. Many skeptics hold that there is no validity in...

Lost in Space

Yes, she was. It was not so much "using Edgar Cayce" as it was implementing some of his home remedies and holistic ideas learned from studying his teachings that she used - She mentioned Olive oil and saunas, for example. As it happens I have a close friend who is a devotee of the teaching...

Lost in Space

Hi Jingz You must be in the same part of the world that I am; I know that "Barbie and Ken" case well. And where is "Barbie" now? I heard that she is a Mom. I am not exactly clear about the analogy you are drawing - are you saying that the way in which she was coerced to go along ...

Lost in Space

From NASA:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/2012-mayan-apo ... 08647.html

It's about teens killing themselves because of doomsday predictions surrounding December 21, 2012. But what do they know? They are in social consciousness and are just scientists, ahem.

Lost in Space

Thanks, Cheryl, I figured that. But I thought Phoenix Rising was a new school? What was it called when you taught there?

Lost in Space

I learned Oh Canada everywhere - from my parents, and also, at movie theatres, lol. This seems beside the point. I meant, are not regular American kids (and RSE is, after all, in America) enculturated at school, and taught values outside of reading, writing and arithmetic. I do see regular schools a...

Lost in Space

Well, I suppose if you go to school somewhere else, along with your regular academic subjects you are socialized in a mould that your culture dictates and are fed other stuff like nationalism and politics as a matter of course. America was only an example. Looking at my Brother's school days (we lef...

Lost in Space

I would assume that most of the kids at Phoenix Rising have parents in RSE, and that any indoctination there is nothing to what they get at home. As someone with some issues with regular schools which are, in part, indoctrination instuments themselves, (salute the flag, be encouraged to serve in the...

Lost in Space

As well, if we apply your standard of reality testing, all religions and many philosophies would be thrown out as failing it. We can't PROVE, for example, or see with out own eyes, that Christ ever existed, or that Mohammed was for real. And science has become a religion for some. " There are m...

Lost in Space

Dear Freemysoul: I believe that Interested HAS expressed doubts about Ramtha, insofar as he or she is somewhat critical of the current state of the teachings and the school. In spite of the "New Age" mindset, which many non-Ramsters also share by the way, I do not think that Interested is ...

Lost in Space

Freemysoul, I understand the points you make. I did kind of think, though, that Interested's comments were in keeping with the theme of this particular part of the forum: "RSE Supporters Debate Forum". I guess it is only to be expected that some posters here are actually RSE Supporters, ri...

Lost in Space

I like the way you say things, Okham. And, Interested, I find your post interesting. I see some sense it what you say, yet also, the circular argument about "buying into your own victimhood" which should somehow justify those who actually have done wrong and caused injury to others. "...

Lost in Space

Hello

I was never in RSE, just have friends who are or were. I wanted to respectfully ask you how your blue body experience is so very different from regular meditation?
LIS

Lost in Space

I am totally fine with Joe being Catholic, even though I am not, and usually I don't see any problem with his scholarly, somewhat impartial discussions on the topic. I just don't read them if I think they don't fit with the discussion thread in question. Because several members of EMF, most of whom ...

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I am reluctant to say anything, however, I feel I have to. I think if someone who is not a long term member or a moderator is reading this, or has noticed that the thread has been moved, they will hop around until they find the contested topic thread, werever it has been moved, and it will get, as a...

Lost in Space

I understand that many former members of 'New Age' groups, and many lapsed Christians as well, wish to repudiate anything that smacks of magical thinking. And also, that what we choose as a spirtual path once we break free from a closed high pressure group is a highly individual choice. I think, Vir...

Lost in Space

He signed up for this group in a big way, met a spiritual partner there, and had commenced what amounted to a three-year retreat which included living apart from society and also, silence; three years worth. He and his partner, though, not too long into the thing, were asked to leave, and ended up l...

Lost in Space

You are right, David, I can no longer pull up the link either. Too bad, it was a good balanced video, and showed interviews with the man's sister and mother. However, perhaps the story in the New York Times is also of interest: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/us/mysterious-yoga-retreat-ends-in-a-g...

Lost in Space

This terrible story shows the impact that exclusive high impact groups may have on families, as well as the importance of support after leaving what amounted to a cult. This is not garden variety Yoga, which proves beneficial for many lay people. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/mysterious-yoga-retrea...

Lost in Space

Thanks, Delavie
And if you go through that link, you see the RSE South African website is at: http://www.windsofafrica.co.za/

Lost in Space

Good point, Okham. Why are the disciplines in general geared towards making students efete, and unlikely to survive in tough times? Possibly, out of touch with the real world? I acknowledge that blind archery may be of some use during a zombie attack, but the neighbourhood walk would be fraught with...

Lost in Space

Not an expert, but hope my little suggestions will make sense to you. Whatever you have given up in order to be able to afford live streams, tapes and books for RSE, do that now. Buy yourself a little present, just because. Instead of a neighbourhood walk, go for a stroll and instead of 'telling you...

Lost in Space

Surprised it didn't show up before, Joe. Very useful, that scale.

Lost in Space

Bonewits is cited in the above article. I posted his evaluation checklist in October, 2010, thinking people here could make up their own minds about RSE. The Checklist: The Advanced Bonewits’ Cult Danger Evaluation Frame (version 2.6) Factors: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Low High 1 Internal Control: Amount...

Lost in Space

Maybe pitching a tent was part of the problem, although, she could have been doing that for fun somewhere else. Still, for the amount paid for events, and after paying that for many years perhaps the more elderly students could have slightly more luxurious accomodations? We do not know if any effort...

Lost in Space

The deceased master is mentioned, and her picture is shown, in the lastest edition of the Masters Connection newsletter.
And, she died before the event had properly begun.

Lost in Space

Thanks, Joe, that does clarify the difference. In the case of my Krishna friend, from what he said I take it that he was actually grabbed and muscled into a car, and driven to an isolated, barnlike structure. This was in the late 70's. There was no physical or sexual abuse. He said the most distress...

Lost in Space

Joe, I wonder if you want a chance to explain the difference, raised in the show but heckled to pieces, between exit counselling and deprogramming? I do believe there must be a considerable difference, but I am not precisely clear about it. I had a school mate who joined the Hare Krishnas, and disap...

Lost in Space

I was a target for the Moonies when I was in my early twenties. I was approached by two really personable, well groomed and professional looking people who asked me if I wanted to attend a "philosophy seminar". I went. I was the only one at this so called seminar - pickings were slim for t...

Lost in Space

Both of my exes sold Amway for a while. One of them really did well with it and enjoyed it. The other, not so much. I did listen to the tapes owned by the one who did well. They really go for the emotional reaction, as you say, Robair. One of them moved me to tears, all about a couple of Amway stars...

Lost in Space

I will elaborate a bit, just so we are clear. What it isn't, as far as I know, is a Church, because a church is a not for profit organization, and the School (yes, I guess I think of it as a School, in that lessons and classes take place, knowledge (right or wrong) is imparted to participants, and p...

Lost in Space

Why do I call it "the school"...because it's name is Ramtha's School of Enlightenment", and I am using a short form. This does not represent a weighing in on its validity or modus operandi or raison d'etre. If someone introduces themselves to you as "a Chelah", do you correc...

Lost in Space

Very well, David, although we are straying away from the topic at hand. Insofar as the teachings of "Ramtha" are also the teachings of The Upanishads, The Bible, The Nag Hammadi Scrolls, The Vedas, and various Pagans, Yogis, Sages and New Agers and pop psychologists, yes, to some extent I ...

Lost in Space

I do not support RSE. I am supportive of my friend in RSE. I have listed my various objections to RSE over the years, anybody who doubts my position can check out the link I posted from YouTube, "How to be a cult leader". And I ask you, would listing all of my objections here be of any ser...

Lost in Space

Dear David: I offered contact through the PM system because I know what it's like, as an outsider, to have someone you care about in RSE. My wish for privacy was in order not to give things away about the person who still is my friend, and is still in the school, and also, out of deference to other ...

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David, I expressed my measured opinion. I condoned nothing, I said that the bad behaviours I listed might turn him off, for good. I don't think anything is all black or white. The good thing about the events at the school, if I could be excused for saying so, is the people one may meet there. Whatev...

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Hi Sandy: I came to this forum the same way you did, having befriended a long term student of RSE. I consider it a hopeful sign that although your friend has been following the teachings for 20 years, yet they were open to friendship with a Christian. Some good and strengthening things go on at the ...

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I suppose I am being too harsh on the article writer, who was actually writing from a religious, not medical, perspective. I do think that not all religions whose practices differ from conventional medicine should be labelled cults. I admit, I don't think really hot heat therapy or any extreme form ...

Lost in Space

That is fascinating, David, about detecting physiological differences indicating psychopathy. I always thought that psychopathy resulted from environmental factors, and that the things that separate most of us from them were sociolo/psychological. Regardless of what you have to say about cults, and ...

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David and Joe: That really is a fascinating article, and shows that when it comes to alternative therapies, buyer beware. Playing devil's advocate here, how many people die or suffer really adverse effects each year from conventional medical practices? We all, surely, know someone who has had their ...

Lost in Space

And OJ Simpson is accused of having his wife stabbed and her friend stabbed, which goes way beyond a case of manslaughter. If JZ/R actually wilfully and deliberately murdered a student, we would not be having this discussion and she/he would be behind bars.

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I expect there is always the claim of a pre-existing condition on the part of the person taking their own life to fall back upon. I did not claim, because I do not know, that the school is blameless, morally, ethically. But in order to make a legal charge stick there would have to be a clear case th...

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Robair, you are right, Canada has it's share of toxic cults and wicked seeming cult leaders, not just in Quebec!

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"How about using the best PR marketing in the world? JZ Knight and her "Self Help Group at RSE" has been getting away with killing its members for over twenty years!" Thanks for all replies, Joe, Rooster, David. David, I am alarmed by what you say here. I do know that as a result...

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One woman died from an intense detoxification exercise involving hyperventilation and sweating:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/self-help-grou ... 36736.html

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Hi Just Wow Like Okham, I am an outsider and have friends in RSE. I think if you love your boyfriend, you will at least for the time being have to accept him as he is, or find somebody more suitable. I am far from unsympathetic, I just think that if you push a choice between the 'big guy' and the te...

Lost in Space

Hi Ex Yeah, and when you click "more" underneath the first video whose link you have provided, you get this, with mention of Ramtha and a quote about the "fiery forms" attributed to JZ Knight: Pyramid power by patriji uploaded by Shajahan@Vizag A Place of Love and Light New life:...

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Or, maybe the good aliens shot down some of the bad aliens?
I don't understand how my dear friends in RSE can buy all of that, especially since the story keeps changing on a dime!

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I just read in a science article that, due to it's having made a close approach to the sun, Elenin is much diminished; is fading away. So, the death star Nibiru or whatever is hiding behind it, the mothership(?) will have to relocate to a less obtrusive spot.

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Hippy stuff, hunh? Pita, Atta and Vata are elements, or concepts, from ancient Vedic medicine, still practiced today in India by some. It separates us by personality type, and states that depending on what type you are, different things will cause you and your body to thrive. Like many forms of anci...

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Twelve weeks??? And how did they convince people to spend twelve weeks? This boggles the mind. Sounds a bit like boot camp. And, giving up one's inheritance does not sound like something one would ordinarily do with one's free will intact. Thanks for your answer, Joe...I wil look into CUT further - ...

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I goofed...I have discovered that they do have conferences and gatherings...and I expect they are paid for.
Still wondering, Joe, was CUT expensive?

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I also see differences...their broadcasts are free. And there is no mention of any events or gatherings or conferences that I could discover, although, maybe I didn't look hard enough.
Joe, was membership in CUT expensive? I mean, financially, as opposed to other intrinsic costs?

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But my RSE friends are decent friends! Seriously though, I was never "in" so I never had to get "out" and I just am speculating. And, Sad Grandfather, apart from your family members enmeshed in RSE, how many Ramsters do you actually know? I think it's pushing the envelope a bit t...

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I don't see it quite that way. If I had to pick a silver lining attaching to the cloud that is membership in RSE, it would be the sharing of group values, the mutual support and sense of community it affords to members. I do see that this makes it much harder to leave - one's whole social life is wr...

Lost in Space

Children are not supposed to be given any salicylic acid (aspirin) because of the risk of Reyes syndrome: "Reyes Syndrome, a deadly disease, strikes swiftly and can attack any child, teen, or adult without warning. All body organs are affected, with the liver and brain suffering most seriously....

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I think it is a real pity that AD 60 is leaving. True Blue, your four stages are spot on. As a coach in training, I learned five stages of group development: Forming, storming, norming, performing and adjourning. In groups which do not adjourn, the tendency is to repeat the first four, and they corr...

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Happy Birthday, W.E. - Athena!

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Thanks, David, for clarifying things.
The respect I spoke of was not for your opinion, per se, it was for you as a person and for the other moderators, and for the purpose of EMF.

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Showing considerable restraint out of respect: David, what I am gathering from the whole fiasco is that anyone who posts anything about their RSE experience that could be considered at all positive will automatically be placed in the RSE supporters forum, even if they have made it clear for years th...

Lost in Space

Perhaps some questioning people who are leaving RSE or considering it, or who still keep some of the ideas of RSE or consider that some of it was worthwhile could figure out a way to ask their questions in such a way that people who are sensitized to the school and all its works would not get 'set o...

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I'm sure you know much more about this than I do. Still, I don't think this is a good sign, considering the erosion of rights it implies for the average law abiding citizen (which I own it does not sound like he is)...North of the border here, I read too many stories in the American news about arbit...

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My oriinal post is lost - trying again. This is quite an interesting article, Ex, and perhaps there is a common mindset between the South African couple and the couple in this case, but I still don't quite see the parallel. The man may be a miscreant, a tax cheat, a loud mouth, not a good citizen, a...

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Interesting about Scott McKenzie, Joe. I reacted more to The Guess Who's (Canadian Band) 'No Time Left For You' - seeing all of those students signing that, and thinking of all the people they may have left behind because those people are still in "social consciousness"... I wanted to reto...

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Nice that you came back and responded, Indigo. W.E., I think that the kooks and absolute Zanes in the article bear little resemblance to some of the other supporters of the Indigo child idea. I also take issue with the idea that giving a hyperactive child ritalin, with all of it's side effects and p...

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The entire clip. We can say that JZ/R appears to be drunk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbleQv1e0-8

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This is only a small clip - I have seem the entire thing...I have to say, the person or that would be people I know in that audience look healthy and happy, and this particular clip is by far the worst - that and the "I am the God of Egypt" part.

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That toon of JZ looks more like Sara Palin or Tina Fey...
Wonder if the maker has every seen JZ. Not bad as a lampoon though

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"This is viewed by skeptics as a way for parents to avoid proper (and generally pharmaceutical) pediatric treatment or a psychiatric diagnosis which implies imperfection." From your article Joe. Taps into my pet peeve - why is medication considered the answer for children's learning disabi...

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I imagine that Indigo was thinking more along the lines of Blue Body Healing and such.

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The originator of the term Indigo children was Dr. Barbara Bowers, who created a personality test called "What colour is your aura" - complete with career path advice, relationship advice & c. There is a section towards the end about a "new breed of kids, Indigo kids", who gr...

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I found this video while browsing on YouTube - by Carey Butt. I'm afraid that it did remind me somewhat of RSE. Appologies if somebody else already posted this here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJfm71I0OyU

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A humorous interpretation of "It's all in the way you look at it":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqerQZObl58

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That's not quite it: I think people meet my expectations because my expectations and my interpretations of other people's behaviour are all 'in my head', self generated, and also probably if I expect the best from others, that expectation is transmitted to them by some nuance in my own behaviour. To...

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Personally, I have an analogous belief, that people, and 'the Universe' if you will, tend to fulfill your expectations of them - but nothing would induce me to sever ties from my daughter, my syblings, or my extended family, ever, under any circumstaces, at any time. The same with my friends, whatev...

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Okay, I see what you are saying David. However, I don't think believing that thoughts create reality or some variation on that theme, in and of itself, is responsible for people being alienated from their families - that is from a different section of the RSE 'menu'. Also, there is a difference, IMO...

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Hi Marie: Regardless of what Indigo believes, I still wish Indigo well, and I am grateful for any information I can get about the current state of things at RSE and also interested to hear about how people fare once they have left and try to make their way in the "real world". I see nothin...

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Naturally most of my own ideas and beliefs, held long before I had ever heard of JZ/R, cannot be credited to RSE. And I do see that there is a uniform pattern to some "new age" and "gnostic" ideas to which nobody can clay claim as the originator. You don't bug me ex, and I respec...

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SO sorry, Ockham, my bad! Never heard that expression, thanks for clarifying.

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:shock: A very erudite dissertation to be sure, Ockham, and quite clear on how the school has taken bona fide scientific theory and warped it to fit their own particular groove. I humbly suggest though that you take your own advice, and if you wish to call WE sophomoric, perhaps that would best be r...

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Quote from the WIkkipedia link you posted about Guru Maharaja:
Gartrell and Shannon noted that people appeared to seek out such religious organizations to get answers to questions about ultimate meaning as well as answers to more prosaic issues

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Thank you David...and glad that at least your experience at the Ashram was not so bad. I did put that comment about how you must have felt about Christianity in the past tense because I think your alliance with Joe, a stated Catholic, testifies to the fact that you have moved past your early impress...

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I was not suggesting that everybody be muzzled because Indigo has stated the intention to leave, rather, I was saying that perhaps we could hold our fire on that account and save it for people who keep on arguing for the validity of JZ/R/RSE (which, in fact, it didn't appear to me that Indigo was do...

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That's horrendous, David! What a vicious institution the Christian Church must have seemed to you. I grew up in a much kinder, gentler version of same, and with two parents who were good to me. Still, it was not enough for me, and I quested for years, before developing my own personal brand of belie...

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I believe that since Indigo is leaving us, and trying to do so with grace and dignity and blessings, that there is really not that much point in taking exception to any aspect of that fond farewell with which some may disagree. I was a little taken aback to hear the tune of the Yo Yo Mah song, which...

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Go in peace Indigo, and may your life be harmonious and beautiful. I have enjoyed hearing you perspective on things And thanks for the Yoyo Mah track.
LIS

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This is really interesting stuff, Joe, and shows the early days of the RSE phenom... I wonder though whether that's right, that followers of so called New Age or Channeled ideologies and entities never had much religion in the first place? I don't think that could be true. Look at JZ/R, whose mother...

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Is still upset and confused. This is the place, I thought, where people who have just left and even people WHO ARE STILL IN THE SCHOOL could post "safely and without fear of flaming and ridicule" - they have been explicitly invited to post on this topic. Some of the discourse here does not...

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Conflict of any kind is distressing to me, so I suppose I should stay off the debate forum in future. I expect I am a little blind to the sensibilities of former students, who naturally dislike anything that smacks of RSE. I did not see what connected that particular phrase with the school. I don't ...

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Not to split hairs here Freemysoul, but what is wrong, what is so Ramster like, about this particular statment of JustTruth's that you have offset: "With all my heart, I desire consciously to create love in all walks all of life, day by day, moment to moment and I know I have the free will and ...

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A very thoughtful and comprehensive essay, Joe, and I agree with much of what you have said. However, many authors of the "Think Positive" school were Christians, not new agers. And we only have our own brains to work with. But, according to Christian thought, we were created in God's imag...

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Thanks JustTruth Yes, it's a Catch22. You can be filled up with wonderful ideas and goals, and really get the sense that you are on the right path at the ranch, and that in and of itself is not at all a bad thing. But then, to be berated repeatedly because, although Yelm is safe and R will protect '...

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Excellent point, Ex.

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I am wondering where the line should be drawn; between thinking positive, positive self talk and affirmations, and motivational messages on the one hand; and believing you can cause gold to materialize out of thin air by sheer force of will on the other. Napolean Hill's book Think and Grow Rich spri...

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My pretzel logic: Either R is real or not real. If R is real, why do the predictions and timelines keep shifting that way? If R is real, we should sink all of our money into preparing, because eventually the timeline thing will be tapped out and we really will be pleased that we prepared, and can ri...

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That is just heartbreaking, David. Good that her sons saved her. And wonder who will save my friends if their common sense completely deserts them. I once had a harrowing nightmare about one of my RSE friends; that he was in his UG, having got the word that it was time, and wouldn't come out even af...

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Hi David I am sorry to hear about your friends, I am not surprised on hearing about them that you are more inclined to believe that RSE is deadly. I won't argue too much with your opinion, which I respect. I speculate that a) the difference between a suicide cult and a survival 'school' is that the ...

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Hi Ponysong: A very interesting article! And the French organization that is investigating is the same one, seemingly, on the trail of Ramsters in France. In all fairness, perhaps the zany guy who is writing those emails believes that he and his brethren will actually be "beamed up", and a...

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Bless you Kensho.
I never thought your posts were harsh! You are a shining light.

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Hi Just Truth: Often the things you've said have crossed my mind as well when reading here. On the flipside, I must say that just as newly questioning RSE students deserve to be heard and cut some slack, so too do those whose lives have been turned upside down and are not quite in one piece still, a...

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Dear Scamtha: I think this sounds ultra familiar to me, the whole pattern of absorption and involvement with RSE and the subsequent severing of ties to "outsiders", in spite of in some cases life long friendship and intimacy. I am not a former RSE student, I am instead in the family and fr...

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So glad to see you back on the EMF board G2G, although the circumstances of your learning of your friend's death are tragic. From time to time I have read your wise and compassionate posts here and wondered what became of you. Sounds like you are doing fine, and perhaps you have moved beyond recover...

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Ponysong: My broken heart is healing; I leave it to you to find ways and means for that, you've made a good start. I have a lot of empathy for your situation, believe me! Yes, Robair does talk about the Bufon. Your pic. reminds me of the Foo, seen at a buskers fest here - it would stop whining and s...

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:roll: :P :P Wow, how did you find that pic? Glad to see you can laugh about the whole thing. Just gotta say though, that can't be the "Big Guy " who would not be caught dead wearing that red outfit (red is so 1st seal, don't you know?). Perhaps that is the Holy Giant Radish from the Mille...

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I am a little troubled with the tone of some of the responses here. It does not appear to be enough for some EMF members for justtruth to have repudiated the more recent teachings at RSE; no, he or she must devalue every single aspect of the entire experience for however many years he or she was inv...

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Dear Just Truth: May your decision sit well with you in time. It can't have been easy. If it's not too personal right now, could you say what you have noticed about the differences between the original teachings and what Ramtha is saying now? I think it may help others who have questions about the c...

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Ockham, you are awesomely knowledgeable...I did not mean to stray off topic, I was responding to what Joe had said. I think there are a number of threads here that are relevant to EMF: Why is engendering fear becoming an increasingly common modus operandi among various faith communities, including, ...

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Ooops, that sentence was incomplete:
Perhaps the best effect of believing that sending out positive thoughts and good wishes towards others can make a difference is on the thinker/wisher.

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That is certainly your perogative, Joe. A circular argument though, IMO. If you suggest prayer works, isn't that enough? Guess it's just the word "magic" you find objectionable. How about the power of positive thought, does that sound hooey to you? I choose to go through my life thinking I...

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The magical power of prayer, taken up by most world faiths, is possibly science based, or at least, can be validated by medical science - cancer patients who are colletively prayed for do, for example, show statistically better outcomes. And believing that by sending forth Mantras or positive though...

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The Left Behind series. I bought all 13 of the rather expensive books, because I wanted to know what fundamental Christians believe - a hobby of mine, exploring other faiths. Not bad, if read as sciene fiction! Somewhat trying patronizing attitude to the Jews, though. The interesting thing for us he...

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Hi Vanilla:

If they truly are your friends, they will still be. You said on another post that your boyfriend's mother is not keen on the school. Perhaps she could also be a source of support. And there is a community of people here who know what you are going through. Sending a hug, LIS

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Wow, Kensho, when you give an answer it is always comprehensive and well thought out! Certainly makes me think. And thanks for reminding me why I did not join RSE. It was the thoughts that people there may tend to: a)Turn their backs on those who love them who are not in the school; b)Be encouraged ...

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This is very interesting, Kensho. Unfortunately, in my attempts to better understand my friend in RSE, I may now attempt to see this film - don't worry though, I saw What the Bleep and enjoyed it as entertainment, yet I have not joined RSE. I humbly suggest, though, that for the same reason I did no...

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Hi Felicitas I was just wondering aloud, and was not directing my remarks to you specifically, nor responding to your post in particular, but I can understand your irritation. And thanks for sharing your story here. Sometimes I am a bit of an ostrich when it comes to negative information shared resp...

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In the common ideas shared by many "New Age" or alternative religions, we cannot see ourselves as victims because, supposedly, we have not only chosen to incarnate at this time, but we have, prior to being born, set up most of the conditions of our present existence in order that we may ex...

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I would not wish their fate on anyone, even though they killed somebody.
I am trying to believe that they were not typical of RSE followers, and that most students would not go to such extremes unless faced with a life or death situation.

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Maybe the issue is, developing a healthy form of faith or dispensing with faith alltogether? I expect that values and ethics are enough for some, philosophy and scientific inquiry for others...I don't begrudge There the conspiracy theory bent, we all have our own way of dealing with trauma and angst...

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I knew there was a reason I don't drink pop! Seriously, though, There, most Wiccans don't believe in demons - they are in the Necromicron, and also in Catholic theology, although many modern Catholics, I believe, regard them as superstition, or analogous, as in "the demon alcohol" or "...

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The thought of JZ dying does not make me happy. I fear that it will cause major upset for those in the school, and will not, in fact, result in an improvement in their llives...perhaps they will be encouraged to turn JZ into a saint, and instead of "liberating them", it might further solid...

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Hi W.E. Yes, I'm sure you are right, they may not be an appropriate place for such discussions, confined as they are to the interests of a few. However, as this topic broached by There concerns demons and orbs and such, it naturally tends towards issues of faith, belief and differing viewpoints, and...

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Not just to patients, W.E. It's the Medical Model I take issue with, because it involves medication. And, major pharmaceutical companies are being sued because of the drastic effects of some of these pills. Further, it's not just people deemed to be psychotic or hospitalized for bizzare behaviour wh...

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Hi Joe: I guess for sane we could substitute rational, or we could substitute socially acceptable. I appreciate your not taking offence from my remark. My argument with DSM is that it represents the Medical Model way of looking at various troubling (to individuals or those around them or both) behav...

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I think this thread is really several threads! I want to thank There for stimulating a lively discussion. Orbs, demons, Witches, Satan and Lucifer, social pressures, persuasion, departures from the norm, group interventions... I have to make the comment, though, There, that the Satanist or Lucifer s...

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Hi There Why must it be demons? Isn't it PEOPLE who deliberately put subliminal symbols in advertising? Isn't it people who persuade us, at times seemingly against our will? There is a book I read in my teens - Subliminal Seduction - about this phenomenon in advertising. And, besides the actions, we...

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Hey Joe: I am not the one who made any connection between believing in demons and mental illness! I just don't, myself, believe in demons, but I was not calling There a coo coo person for believing in demons, instead, I suggested a website where people expound upon some of the same ideas he is touch...

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Hi, There. I think Ex is right, they only have the power over you that you give them. I think that what demons there are result from negative thoughts, and can best be combatted by positive ones, and a rational or even a scholarly approach. You appear to be interested in conspiracy theory, and so yo...

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Dear People This is directly cut and pasted from the bottom of my screen on the forum here: You can post new topics in this forum You can reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum So, that must mean that either I have fewer priv...

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Dear Webmaster:

These events, truly repugnant and reprehensible as they are, may in fact have the effect of driving more people away from RSE.

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Guess my science background is sadly lacking - but surely, if ELFs produce these effects, shrinks would have jumped at the chance to alleviate their patients' symptoms of malaise and depression, and addiction counsellors would be touting their benefits in giving addicts an alternative to harmful dru...

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Thanks for explanations, Ex and Freemysoul. At least they are positive affirmations, and not "you are worthless", "you are just a speck", "you are feeble".... Am trying to comfort myself about the fact that my friend is probably headed for the Ranch right now. Maybe the...

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Thanks for heads up about Geminids!
Please tell me you're joking about "The List", and, also, what is on "The List"? Sounds ominous.

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Orion is visible here for most of the year...not sure how that can be, but it's great. Wishing on a star that it's not too cold right now there on the Ranch - people without RVs have to sleep in the stables, and I heard a rumour that subliminal tapes are played there - not sure I believe it. I have ...

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Striving for some form of middle ground, I present to you "Unitarian Universalism". By it's self definition on a website I visited, it encompasses Judao-Christian traditions, Humanism and Shamanism. And there is talk of that brotherhood of man and oneness - and it is not considered a cult,...

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But I like the Queen! She bears a striking resemblance to my Mom. Thanks for that story, though, W.E., it does graphically illustrate that our monarchs are human, like the rest of us. I am not so much, for myself, afraid of death. I am afraid of losing people, though. And seeing the Earth torn apart...

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Just to throw us off, some appear in the form of inedible objects, like Frisbees....Appealing and W.E., this is such fun, seriously though, I am dealing with a family member who has so lost his usual good sense, he really does think that the end is coming soon. I doubt that he would even have found ...

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Angst and disatisfaction may strike anybody, especially the disillusioned. It is hard to have bought into something you think is going to transform your life; to believe that if you just work hard enough, focus hard enough, believe hard enough, practice hard enough, exert your will hard enough, that...

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Kensho, you have such a gift of lucidity, and this Board has suffered from your partial absence! I had scrambled thoughts along the lines of what you have said, but your thoughts are crystal clear and beautifully expressed. And, I thank you Grace for the blessing you have offered here at EMF. As Ken...

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Hi Grace: I am respectful of the fact that you are a Christian. I too was raised a Christian, although, not a fundamental one. What my parents taught me, and I honour them, was that the old testament was, as pre-Christian Judaism of it's times and places, quite patriarchal and unforgiving, and that ...

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I reversed E and W in your name, WofthesunEofthemoon. I'm sorry. Can I just call you W.E.?

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Hi, EofthesunWofthemoon: Yes, I have heard those criticisms too - can only briefly state that I am fascinated by ancient civilizations, archaeology, and the subject of evolution and how we got here, as well as religious studies, ancient and modern. I just said Sitchin's books were interesting, not s...

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Hi Ex You mean, Nibiru has been and gone, and we missed it? Nothing much happened? Are you saying that Ms. Knight reads this page? I would think she would have too much else to think about. If Nibiru has already been, it will be centuries before it's return, according to Zecharia Sitchin, so we can ...

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Further, about Nibiru - I have read for of Zacharia Sitchin's books based on theories of Nibiru. I think they are fascinating. True that there is no proof of most of what he says, it's still interesting. Two articles on Sitchin and is confreres if anyone is interested: http://halexandria.org/dward19...

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Hi David Very interesting, although, it is unfortunate that the two articles seem to contradict one another a bit - firstly, 2012, and particulary, December, may not be the date to worry about, according to Ms. Pappas, whereas, according to Mr. Radford, that is the date at issue, but it may not have...

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Great article, Oldone. Very reassuring. Just as with this article, dispelling fears of an imminent appocalypse, when as a child I first read the Book of Revelation, I expected to hear bells and trumpets, but I was reassured by a scholarly article which stated that all of the events outlined in that ...

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You are most welcome Felicitas. I hope it helps.
I fear it would be futile to do this for my friend, who is deeply enmeshed in the school and has been for over 15 years. Better luck to you with your Mom.

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Yes, students are encouraged to believe that Yelm is the only safe place, and to build underground shelters. I approach this from an academic perspective - I would not like my friend or your relatives to be underground at the time of a pyroclastic flow from a volcano, or flooding from volcanic debis...

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Isaac Bonewitz is a Neo Pagan/Witch/Wiccan. That being said, he is not pushing anything on anyone, and has come up with a really useful, IMO, tool by which to evaluate high demand groups/cults. I have subjectively rated a number of groups, including RSE, using this checklist. Mr. Bonewitz's website:...

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