The EnlightenMeFree (EMF) Online Debate Forum

joe sz

outonalimb I am not an ex-member of RSE but was in the similar CUT cult run by Elizabeth Prophet..I went through many months of anxious confusion in 1980 before i broke free...this is a shared expereince by many many cult defectors. I think the cheapest investment you can make now is buy: Take Back ...

joe sz

welcome RbtB.

you may want to post on this set of threads
viewforum.php?f=51

your story is valuable for anyone who needs more information about RSE
Joe

joe sz

i forgot we had this discussion re bonewits in 2009 w G2G. thanks for triggering memory LiS.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=650

joe sz

ponysong good to see some use of Elliot Benjamin. i recall his 'typology' when it came out. It is unique and could be a useful instument, but i have yet to read peer reviews. sorry, can't resist some comment. I recall reading Wilber's 'ReVision' magazine in the early 1980s--it came out in 1978. Wilb...

joe sz

in my business at the psych hospital, there as an old joke among staff that goes: How can you tell when an addict is lying? His lips are moving. ponysong, I think that poster of the girl pointing is creepy too. reminds of old Nazi propaganda for Hitler Youth...same in your face authoritarian, comman...

joe sz

AHEM..TRY THIS AGAIN AFTER MY ORIGINAL POST MAGICALLY "DISAPPEARED" cyber :evil: ? The video on Joseph Kony that has gone viral [50 million?] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4MnpzG5Sqc&feature=youtu.be was what I mentioned as speaking to David's post. here's a news update on the sensat...

joe sz

an early "channeling" cult with resources enough to become a major American religion Paul C. Gutjahr: Birth of Mormon, death of a prophet Special to National Post Mar 3, 2012 In a new book, excerpted below, Paul C. Gutjahr explains how Joseph Smith created Mormonism in the early 19th cent...

joe sz

I think it is about time to bring on the real Ramtha. Truth is ALL about personal EXPERIENCE, isn't it? "I will come to you as the wind" says Ramtha, is in effect a personal experience. Ramtha as the wind says this through me is a legit claim even by RSE standards. No channel around in the...

joe sz

we can revisit US vs Ballard, a fraud trial involving channeling and Ramtha's Great White Brotherhood that extended from 1940-46. The 1946 final judgement [case was thrown out on technicality of not enough women in jury, after all that!] Guy Ballard died 1939 of painful arterial sclerosis in a Chica...

joe sz

okay. here's one start for a solution. not one person that left RSE has published a book (which is easy to do nowadays thru many self-publishing options like amazon) narrating their "experience" and why they left. No need to morph into an expert on cults here or become a preachy pundit abo...

joe sz

class action suits are not criminal proceedings. they are about money not jail time. whoever launches a class action suit with their millions of dollars will be a person in a glass house. we have been thru this before--who out there is willing to put their lives on hold for many years while putting ...

joe sz

david, I am not merely being cynical here. since no one can predict the future, but prosecuting any abusive spouse or cult leader before an act of violence, misdemeanor, or felony occurs is well nigh impossible. It was well known and reported by ex-members of Peoples Temple that Jim Jones was condit...

joe sz

Ockham I hear you.. but tell that to the feds re leaders of Scientology, Landmark, Unification Church, Miracle of Love, John-Roger, etc for 3,000 or more "new religious movements" and bible cults. emf may not realize how pervasive this problem is and the frustration it causes. like I told ...

joe sz

good points Tree. CUT's Eliz Prophet would "ascend" core staff members in good standing that died, even giving them an ascended master name, but if a defector died, it was a sign of collapsing karma without ascended master protection, or, more cynically, the decrees for "judgement&quo...

joe sz

ovebreathing in C&E or yoga does not add oxygen to the body or brain...opposite: my colleagues studied this when rebirthing was all the craze back in the 70s and 80s here's a good article: http://www.normalbreathing.com/index-O2-transport.php Over 90% people believe that a deep or heavy breathin...

joe sz

ps Is There a Cure for Hepatitis B? When a person is infected with the hepatitis B virus, there is only one cure -- time. If signs and symptoms do occur, treatment is supportive, which means treating the symptoms and possible complications while the body fights the virus. Fortunately, in most cases,...

joe sz

hep b can be cured, and the "uncomplicated" Ramtha case mentioned above proves nothing about C&E curing chronic Hep B. "Treatment The symptoms of hepatitis B can be treated with medication. If you have an uncomplicated case, you can expect to recover completely. If you have chroni...

joe sz

LiS your Krishna friend is more typical than not re Hare Krishnas--most who I knew that were recruited back then were either misfits or came from dysfunctional family backgrounds, yet some were stellar students from wealthy families. and there was George Harrison, the Beatle, who supported the movem...

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LiS good question but no simple answer...did you expect anything less ;-) early in the recent [since 1970] wave of cult intervention, deprogramming meant both coercively initiated intervention thru house arrest and or kidnapping AND non-coercive, meaning that the cult member could call it off or lea...

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video 5 towards the end allows a female CUT member, Lauri, to complain about a failed intervention in which she "almost drowned"...Hassan mentioned "joe tried to save your life" yeah, that was me and i was on the case around 1987-8. Of couse, I saw the entire event differently UP...

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the last video. I noted Murray Steinem, who has been a staunch CUT ember, the guru's astrologer and lately was her co"guardian" with Erin until Prophet died of alzheimer's complication. the exchange between Hassan and Steinem brought back a smile-- I was suppose to be on that show....folks...

joe sz

this oprah show goes back a ways. I met Moira after she defected from CUT. She wrote a memoir w an author but later racanted her effort to expose her mother, so the memoir was scrapped. the 3 daughters have basically reconciled. The oldest Sean of course is an embattled atheist, and the 5th child a ...

joe sz

Robair you nailed it--a multilevel marketing scheme but with cultic features. The pyramid scheme applies to most any organization---wealthy owners, CEOs, ad major investors are at top and stooped labor, paycheck Jennies and Joes on the bottom. As long as the paycheck crowd is properly compensated, s...

joe sz

Ponysong I went through an Amway pitch once soon after I exited CUT @ 1980. I spent around 3 hours at his home--it took 2 hours before Amway ever came out of his mouth. I took some tapes home but returned them after listening to a few. The pitch as all about technique. There is a set-up with lots of...

joe sz

'NXIVM is a litigation machine' Criticize Keith Raniere or tell the public NXIVM's secrets and you'll be sued, several subjects say Albany Times Union James M. Odato , Times Union Copyright 2012 Times Union. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistribu...

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good business or mystical manipulation of the masses? This article shows how Amway reps blatantly manipulate devotees and buyers through "love" emotion. FEBRUARY 15, 2012 Inside the Amway Sales Machine Wall Street Journal By DENNIS K. BERMAN LAS VEGAS—Holly Chen is a former first-grade tea...

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Secrets of NXIVM Some experts say Keith Raniere, the guru behind an unusual training business, is really a cult leader Albany Times Union James M. Odato and Jennifer Gis, Times Union http://analytics.apnewsregistry.com/analytics/v2/image.svc/albanytimes/RWS/timesunion.com/CVI/20/CAI/2880885/E/prod/A...

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ex good point re JZ. Selfish instinct and experience [20/20 tv show in 1987] tells her she would be exposed as a fruitcake and manipulative b*tch if her cult again received national attention after she sued an ex-member--that is an ex-member with guts and sanity enough to withstand the legal and psy...

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Scientology hearing ends abruptly San Antonio Express John MacCormac , Express-News Copyright 2012 Express-News. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. By John MacCormack Friday, February 10, 2012 Page 1 of 1 A legal battle between the Church ...

joe sz

ex this is a good discussion because "labelling" without strong evidence is what cults do as propaganda. the video plays fast and loose with targeted folks that may or may not have the traits suggested as the narrative flows. One does not have time to think but the suggestion is that anyon...

joe sz

I got some feedback already from colleagues who all found the images and glib use of celebrities, religious figures and politicians offensive. the average viewer cannot sort out easily when the video indicates narcissism, unconscious social behavior and intentional manipulation. Also, there is a ser...

joe sz

thanks ex

caution: I watched this---interesting, but the glib narration is ironically a trait of a psychopath

illustrations and images are suggestive, subjective, and not definitive

but worth a look, I think
http://wideeyecinema.com/?p=11109

joe sz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cross ... emplar.svg

that is the Templar Cross on the banner, clearly a "sign" of a neo-Gnostic pretender cult.

joe sz

Ockham as usual, your analysis is great. we looked at solipsism before, but it is spelled out well here on wiki The term comes from Latin solus (alone) and ipse (self). Solipsism as an epistemological position holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure. Philosophical solipsism...

joe sz

But back to Sai Baba. If there’s one thing India does well it’s mass hysteria; it’s part of the charm of the place and just check out the deluxe ashram, the flowers, the crowds touching the feet, the colour combinations – who needs rock and roll when you’ve got gurus like Sai? http://www.roadjunky....

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Asoka lived and reigned in the Maurya dynasty in what is now India 2300 years ago, 3rd century BCE. Note the change in his life from a "warrior" who slaughtered and hacked , then 'got religion' and converted to Buddhism, creating one of the most extensive and benevolent regimes in history ...

joe sz

Lavigne had already completed 85 personal development seminars at the spa, for which she paid more than $18,900. To me, the above is the problem in a NUTshell. cultic harm comes as a result of bounded choice, or a certain amount of freedom to choose what the guru thinks is right. Yes, Lavigne chose...

joe sz

January 29, 2012 · Rethinking Religion After Latest Holistic Death · · Religion Dispatches · By Joseph Laycock · · In July 2011, Chantal Lavigne of Quebec died as a result of a personal development seminar. Last week, a coroner’s report confirmed that Lavigne was accidentally “cooked to death” durin...

joe sz

cd scientology has run ads for Dianetics auditing courses for decades, in past featuring an expoding volcano, a "hidden" reference to the "secret" OT3 myth (Operating Thetan) that humans are contaminated from birth by thousands of "body thetans" (BTs) that only scientol...

joe sz

You were not brought here by natural selection, you were brought here by (gods?) ..if you build it they will come. straight out of Blavatsky and 19th Century occultism post-Darwin. Republicans will start nuclear war…no respected republican can go without a war. VOTE fear factor. Elizabeth Prophet u...

joe sz

Robair
I reviewed this book for icsa and amazon by Geoffrey Falk, Stripping the Gurus. he's Canadian and included a chapter about Rock Theriault and his unbelievably sadistic control of his cult members, some children.

http://www.amazon.com/review/RV2X3514662N3

joe sz

http://www.examiner.com/culture-events-in-national/david-lynch-transcendental-meditation-documentary-unavailable-u-s-for-now-review Achtung: lawsuit prevents film from distribution in USA. I got my copy from Germany. Sehr gut! worth seeing for anyone who experienced Ramtha pseudo-science http://www....

joe sz

just viewed this recent documentary expose on Transcendental Meditation: http://www.davidwantstofly.com/ http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117942181/ I think all former cult members, especially those from New Age groups that claim a "scientific" basis for their teachings, need to to see thi...

joe sz

that's good insight, R. many true statements are twisted by cult leaders-- as loaded language to constrict the mind. even the idea of going "into the void" is accurate scientifically. none of us can prove what awaits after the change called death, so it remains a "void" or as we ...

joe sz

recall JZ's autobiography? A State of Mind looks like it has a new cover as of 2004 and is $65 new :roll: http://www.amazon.com/State-Mind-Ramtha-Adventure-Begins/dp/1578730023 That title made the cult myth obvious, to me at least when I first read it in late 1988. Ramtha is all in your head if you ...

joe sz

I want to add something regarding this interview. Other than the obvious--that I am not a great interviewer--this interaction between Jeff Knight and me was unrehearsed although we did spend many hours talking before, during and after the evidentiary hearing for the divorce settlement action. There ...

joe sz

Gong Hsi Fa Tsai!

Jan 23 begins year of the Dragon!
http://www.chinapage.com/dragon1.html
happy new year, again...

joe sz

COULD THIS BE MERELY THE IMPULSE OF A LONELY ALCOHOLIC WHO DOES NOT WANT TO DRINK ALONE??

joe sz

tree, you are absolutely correct about insurance payment and diagnosis. i deal with this as one aspect of my job which is to "pre-certify" payments with insurance companies for patients being admitted. Ins Co will not pay for inpatient treatment for "character disorder" or Person...

joe sz

tree thanks for the lead on Dr Marsh Linehan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsha_M._Linehan she herself suffers[d] from 'borderline personality disorder' and went through many years of manipulative, suicidal and self-destructive episodes. I have dealt with many [women mainly] who have this diagnosis...

joe sz

this is a the classic "sociological" argument made by Dr Rodney Blackhirst. he got "some" things right, like no one knows where the "3000 cults" number comes from---its been bandied about without much evidence by anti-cult orgs for decades. In my limited experience over...

joe sz

Tolerance should extend to cults Dr Rodney Blackhirst Email: r.blackhirst@latrobe.edu.au First published in the Bendigo Advertiser on 5 January, 2012 Australia has an admirable tradition of religious tolerance in a secular framework. Religious freedom and separation of Church and State are explicit...

joe sz

ditto: so far, so good in 2012!
best wishes to all

joe sz

THE 2 WOMEN REPRESENTED THEMSELVES
nxivm went through several highpowered firms
again, good judges see through the games. evidence and fact wins out

joe sz

some followup on this: comments are interesting
http://saratogaindecline.blogspot.com/2 ... stmas.html

joe sz

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1441326/ http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1810174142/info saw this 2011 film yesterday and attended a discussion about it with 25 people. Martha Marcy May Marlene is very well done, remained within its intention of a deep character study, not ovedoing the cult stuff but reve...

joe sz

And last but certainly not least, the city will make another determination of water availability at final subdivision approval as it is required to do by state law.” They way I read this, in the end, if the city finds and offers enough water, the subdivision goes ahead anyway. In this poor housing ...

joe sz

" What do you expect when you guys live in fear" and he also said, " I was just giving you guys what you wanted" a play on "you create your own reality" nonsense taught in newage cults this harks back to the old ramtha dialog teachings in audio re "Children and Pa...

joe sz

new on youtube of Douglas in Trinidad being interviewed by Joe Szimhart in 1990. Douglas was a deeply committed member of RSE when he was introduced by surprise to 2 exit counselors by his family. He was about to leave his children, wife, and thriving business to move to Yelm because "Ramtha&qu...

joe sz

neat hovel but I would want a secret escape tunnel in case the house were surrounded by chinese commies from mexico and alien zombies from jehovee's ships, no to mention rogue scientologists who were shut out of the sea orgs and celebrity centers after the apocalypse and angry fundamentalists who we...

joe sz

rse/jz is not in same position to sue ex-members or 'emf'. AoL is huge compared to JZ, thus can intimidate more, but those ex-members need some good legal advice. Countersuits for infringing on free speech can be very powerful, esp if the speech is backed up by evidence. I went through this with ex-...

joe sz

Mayans never predicted world to end in 2012 - experts The West Australian Pepe Cortes, Reuters December 2, 2011, PALENQUE, Mexico (Reuters) - If you are worried the world will end next year based on the Mayan calendar, relax: the end of time is still far off. So say Mayan experts who want to dispel...

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ex-members with on line forum being sued by cult: http://aolfree.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/im-being-sued-by-a-religious-cult/ http://artoflivingfree.blogspot.com/ I have had many complaints over the past years about this one and its leader/founder SrSriRaviShankar. Similar in style, manipulation via ...

joe sz

unfortunately, to my way of thinking, most "alternative" medicine amounts to faith healing with a twist: Faith traditionally was not physically toxic and did not pretend to be "medicine." However, since the advent of 19th century New Thought, faith is now called "mind scienc...

joe sz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neSYqdyYKgQ (DEAD LINK)

joe sz

it is possible that JZ had not lawyered up properly at the time of the Mafu challenge. RSE was changing to C&E/Void era at the time and I suppose she wanted no more legal wrangling, esp on the heels of the 20/20 expose. yet it would have been interesting to see Mafu and Ramtha being called as wi...

joe sz

Ponysong patent was a poor choice of words. I meant by "patented" as in anything trademarked, patented, or copyrighted under law. I have no idea how "legalized" bikram hothouse yoga is. The currrent TM suits are more about trademark infringement. JZ/R does get touchy about tradem...

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Franchising "yoga" as an "excercise" or workout in a spa atmosphere was first presented to popular America in early 1900s by an American, aka the Great Oom (Pierre Bernard 1876-1955). Pete Seeger as a kid lived with his folks and siblings at the Oom's spa in Nyack NY. Much later,...

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Below, a comparative example of legalism in guruland. Patanjali is credited for established yoga principles 2000 years ago. Bikram hothouse yoga is merely an eccentric variation. It will be interesting to note how US law handles this essentially religious "Hindu" conflict. [aka 12-2-2011]...

joe sz

for the skeptic in you
http://www.youtube.com/user/stormmovie

joe sz

robair, I get your point, but my point was not about Elvis [God rest his magnificent soul] but someone channeling Elvis at end of his career---he was on uppers and downers. not a drinker, nor did he smoke like JZ, so no, no comparison beyond his bloated body struggles and mood swings at the end. J G...

joe sz

Ockham
I wonder when this occured as well??

reminds me of someone channeling a bloated Elvis at the end of his career
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObUNSGv2 ... re=related

joe sz

Back during their doomsday cycle [1986-1991], CUT was selling 'space' in their huge shelters for $6,000 per person. This was supposed to guarantee 1 year of food and supplies. Of course, the toilets never operated properly. Aroma therapy anyone?

joe sz

and do not forget Harry Potter's magic hand movements with his wand CUT had specific hand gestures with decrees: some with palms up in front and others with palms extended outward from chest. The CUT salute was similar to Nazi's but with palm sideways, not flat down. The Castaneda cult as mentioned ...

joe sz

Liz Prophet used to do or mock "mudras" or symbolic hand movements developed in India as ritual.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudra

JZ probably does something like that with a mix of gestures adopted from Yul Brynner in "The King and I"...SO BE IT

joe sz

CUT/Summit Lighthouse had this same immigration problem esp during late 1980s thru 1992 or what came to be called "the doomsday cycle" when they concentrated on everyone moving to Montana to partake of the enormous survival shelters there. Suddenly there was a rash of "marriages"...

joe sz

talk about moving the goal-posts :roll: The Jehovah Witnesses moved it many times since the 19th century and are still using the technique to keep followers on their Paranoia Express . Proto-orthodox, early 2nd century Christians at least figured it out after 100 years of waiting for "this gene...

joe sz

Drinking the Kool-Aid: A Survivor Remembers Jim Jones The Atlantic By Jennie Rothenberg Gritz Nov 18 2011 Teri Buford O'Shea fled Jonestown three weeks before all its inhabitants committed suicide. Here, she explains why the tragedy should be a cautionary tale for everyday people. On November 18, 1...

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Self-help guru gets 2 years in sweat lodge deaths By FELICIA FONSECA, Associated Press – November 18, 2011 PRESCOTT, Ariz. (AP) — A charismatic self-help author who led an Arizona sweat lodge ceremony that turned deadly will serve two years in prison. James Arthur Ray was sentenced Friday to three,...

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Guru apologizes to families of sweat lodge victims By FELICIA FONSECA, Associated Press November 17, 2011 PRESCOTT, Ariz. (AP) — A self-help author convicted in the deaths of three people following an Arizona sweat lodge ceremony expressed remorse Thursday, making his first extensive comments in ope...

joe sz

correction; Dieter does not channel Kuthumi--he promotes Rae Chandran (India Indian) who channels Kuthumi and other GWB entities
http://www.signsandsymbols.net/index.shtml

joe sz

just came across another Great White Brotherhood channel, Dieter Braun who claims to be Canadian Indian :roll: and channels messages from "Kuthumi", 2012 predictions, 11/11/11 portal, etc http://crystallizeyourlightbodynow.wordpress.com/2009/11/26/kuthumi-crystals-and-their-functions/ http...

joe sz

David and all this discussion is healthy I think to put purpose in perspective. I am not an ex-member of RSE, so I have little to say as an eyewitness to actual abuse during events and beyond. Nearly every controversial cult these days has ex-member forums on line and nearly every cult continues to ...

joe sz

robair, david and others. Are you kidding me? where did you get the idea that I have changed and now am more moderate about "cults" as in the Langone/West definition posted by Ockham? Yeah, I have become more "nuanced' but all that means is that i study my target before shooting. I kn...

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Robair. The definition you supply works for emf and the anti-cult movement in general. I get that. but here is a good sum of how problematic it becomes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult the best rule is always define what you mean---do not just say "cult" when appearing before a reporter,...

joe sz

rooster that is THE problem. Cult as a descriptive term has been mangled in popular usage for 100 years now. RSE has some cult characteristics according to the original definition which was: a system of devotion to "take care of the gods/deities/ancestors" as in Greek gods. an ancient Gree...

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this addresses David's plea above for government to make some kind of law: Create special laws for cults: DPP Adelaide Now by: Catherine Hockley in Canberra The Advertiser November 03, 2011 SA's chief prosecutor Stephen Pallaras is calling for new laws to thwart the rise of cults across the nation. ...

joe sz

did anyone see the msnbc show on a Christian youth cult sunday night? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/45131666#45131666 check it out lots of parallels in the teen mania boot camp to RSE "events" this is the cult website: http://www.teenmania.com/ for $8000 or more you can send your...

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good posters, David. calling ramtha a frawd is good but make sure when you describe that you mean the "entity" and not the group or jz and you will stay our of legal sh*t. If ramtha the entity wants to sue, let the spook appear in court in his jz body suit. I'll be there to help the attorn...

joe sz

Cults like this are more like a rabbit hole occupied by a reticulated python. Constriction of the self occurs deep down inside, not confrontation with a manic bunny that leads to a mad queen. There are no helpful caterpillars or amused Cheshire cats after one's mind is in the coils of the python. Re...

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David, et al... what Nixiummmmm did was a SLAPP suit. A strategic lawsuit against public participation (SLAPP) is a lawsuit that is intended to censor, intimidate, and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or opposition. [1] The typical...

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when you got nothin, you got nothin to lose -- Bob Dylan "Like a Rolling Stone." this is not about losing or paying off debt though. it is about gaining something, about shedding light on an abusive and deceitful enterprize. If you make the effort to expose a cult and it sues you, publicat...

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David, Scientology is a kind of lightning rod of the cult world because it has had a rep of "not turning the other cheek" (that is one of Co$ slogans) and the chronic tabloid celebrity thing. This author punked out because, as the review states: He mentions as influencing factors the threa...

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this is book by Hugh Urban is a recent expose [softish] of scientology. but it does reveal that the Co$ is in decline from "55,000 in 2001 to 25,000 in 2008". nevertheless, the Co$ counts difrently and claims over 6 million members!!! some people call that BIG number the total mailing list...

joe sz

Those key words that have to do with focus. From the day you step in. Know just know. It's all about knowing. It's a strong part of that program. You ask how do you know this? " I know, I just know, I feel it Self-hypnosis [the suggestible state] is generally defined as a heightened state of f...

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kensho look up Manly P Hall: Secret teachings of all ages http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/index.htm this impressive, filled with hoary info book by a Theosophist maverick is one of 3 things that got me into the cult mess I ended up in with CUT. I found it in a friend's Santa Fe art gallery in 19...

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I've read and heard the bizarre Ramtha/JZ teachings since 1984, but this may make some of you who once took all that seriously feel better: Summit Lighthouse/Church Universal & Triumphant taught us: Mark Prophet, the founder claimed that ancient aliens mated with apes in Africa to create a slave...

joe sz

Just Wow I have lots of other titles but I'd have to know what background experience may have led the person to readily accept the Ramtha message. any prior group or religious affiliations or spiritual orientation? other books or gurus that had an impact? any history of anxiety or mood disorder beyo...

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justwow not sure how old or how experienced a new age seeker your partner is, but some folks of all ages I've encountered broke free of RSE-like attachments merely by reading a relevant book or two I recommended through their significant other eg Madame Blavatsky's Baboon by Peter Washington Bounded...

joe sz

http://www.history.com/shows/ancient-aliens nevertheless, History channel keeps showing Van Daniken on newer shows on aliens and as a credible witness.....this nonsense will not go away because most people who watch it have little idea how to apply skepticism--it is hard work---much easier to "...

joe sz

Co$ claims that their expensive programming can make you into an "operating theta" or OT; theta means soul in Greek but OT stands for "immortal god" in the cult. this new C0$ facility makes RSE look quite shabby in cultland Superpowers HQ The Sun visits Scientology cult's new £50...

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ps

Camping is truly pathetic, yet there will be followers who stick by his 'prophecy' that this end of the world will not be noticable

he needs to be put out to pasture

is there a nursing home for overthehill, clearly delusional preachers, gurus, channelers, cult leaders, prophets, etc

joe sz

ockham
yes, I think that's the same social mechanism at work.
How many of us will stay in a theater or glued to a tv to see the end of a bad movie? We hope at some stage the plot is rescued and there will be a pleasant surprise, a reward for our effort.

joe sz

I wrote a 'blog' regarding this recent political use of "cult" but I also explain the origin of this pastor's fundamentalist perspective

http://jszimhart.com/blog/christian_cult_controversy

joe sz

ps there is that teaching of Jesus that we must become like children to enter the kingdom of heaven. Then there is the followup from Paul who said though we are like children in the beginning of our conversion, we must put away the ways of a child and grow up as disciples. This innocence before the ...

joe sz

Ponysong.. here's one pont of view: Arthur Deikman addressed this urge to let someone in authority take care of us in his book The Wrong Way Home (1992) later relesed as Them and Us]. He used a Peanuts cartoon of the kids w Charlie Brown in the back seat of a car wondering what terror they might fac...

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more selacia. she was purportedly a "foreign correspondant" for the Wall Street Journal, thus has decent writing skills she is on a promotioal tour for her 2011 book "YOUR GUIDE TO EARTH'S PIVOTAL YEARS: A Direct Path to Enlightened Living" The Earth is at a precipice; there is a...

joe sz

re Sealacia: Selacia: a channel for The Council of 12, is internationally known for her work in the inspirational/ transformation field. In her book, The Golden Edge, readers are provided with guideposts and cutting-edge tools for moving out of fear and into joy and wholeness. She provides private s...

joe sz

sg, we all have those reactions. but if you think it through, getting rid of a leader never got rid of the following unless the following submits to or receives extensive upgrade in education and "chooses" to reject what the leader poured into their heads. Also, extermination is a nazi &qu...

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Sad grandfather thanks for lead on venus project. and zeitgeist. been a long time since I paid any attention to the failed, paranoid zeitgeist film and movement. I watched several interviews with this guy Jack Fresco incl one from 1974 w Larry King :lol: --Fresco has not really evolved since those o...

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sadfriend to carry ockham's pt further, propaganda appeals to a primitive part of the brain, much as advertizing does, when it is done "right." it is also that part that wants to believe that the next roll of the dice will be the winner or the part that "knew" it when something c...

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The way I se it, Ratha developd in 3 phases: 1977 -1980 JZ crafted her channeling act w the help of Ann M Bennstrom who ran a Hollywood spa thus attracting film stars like Rich Chamberlain, Shirley MacLaine, etc. 1980 she meets Jeff, changes name via marriage, and moves into workshop phase w Ramtha ...

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ockham that 'touchdown jesus' going up in flames article was LOL funny. bad art deserves to be burned. I think Zeus was pissed. to me, religion is more about aesthetics and elegance than science and fact. I mean, if you are going to make a statue of a great hero, hire Michelangelo or Bernini. Do not...

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do not dismiss the statue idea. The Agni Yoga sect out of Theosophy in Russia, now 3 million strong, followed this pattern in Great White Brotherhood worship by erecting statues of Helena and Nicolas Roerich who were the channels for Master Morya: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/...

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yes, Kensho! limitless as the imagination :lol: no two artists paint alike and no two preachers preach the exact same religion. ex the Boddhisattva was a late development in Buddhist mythology, in the Mahayana tradition, around 5 centuries after the buddha. The earliest textual evidence of "Mah...

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reincarnation is problematic for a strict Buddhist. If all that is 'samsara' or just an aggregate of forces, emotions and properties that form a "self", there is no evidence that that "self" is the same identity or person reincarnated, Tibetan Buddhism and the re-appearance of a ...

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So I ask you? What is Ramtha doing still attached to all the sin and suffering of this life in the Spook world? Getting drunk, selling bogus horses and having sex or yearning for the old days when sex was easier and all that through "his woman" thus complicating a host of lives in more and...

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Once upon a time there was a teaching about the Light. Every good Spiritualist since the 19th Century knew, and all good Spiritualists today know that one must approach the Light after death to avoid getting trapped in the spook world with attachments to Earth life and sin and suffering. Helena von ...

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this UG business with cults has been a sham for most of them primarily because none of them actually sustains true, long term practice/training sessions to work out the flaws in the systems and in the folks using them. eg, ther one time CUT members actually went underground en masse in 1990, over 70...

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I see UFOs and aliens whenever I watch Men in Black

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hello NoBS. as above, so below that's an occultist aphorism of old used primarily by astrologers but I mean it as a pun----I ditto what was said above. Jim Melton called RSE a neo-Gnostic "new religion movement" for good reason--one of the few things that makes actual sense in his book abo...

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the key to understanding 'harmful cult' as 'abusive relationship' is in this one statement i made: In a sense, cults create a transcendent experience that “stops time” for the follower who feels the aura of a final answer to life’s questions. Thereby, “the original exploratory impulse” that got them...

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the key to understanding 'harmful cult' as 'abusive relationship' is in this one statement i made: In a sense, cults create a transcendent experience that “stops time” for the follower who feels the aura of a final answer to life’s questions. Thereby, “the original exploratory impulse” that got them...

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Ponysong,
I posted a version sans short intro here on my site
http://jszimhart.com/blog/inside_the_cult_controversy

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ponysong,
Do you mean the hospital one? not yet--it is in editing...I'll let you know when/if and where it is published asap.

but you have permission to cut and paste what I wrote above.
Joe

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lookin for love in all the wrong places :?: again :?: why are we surprised? sex for pleasure works with battery toys as well as boytoys, but for Love that demands mutual and mature selflessness/self-denial solidly in the mix, a virtue unknown and uncultivated by RSE and its grandly wrapped but cheap...

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Whenever I lectured about the cult problem RSE was one of the best of ten good examples to illustrate "the problem." here's some more of that paper I mention above (sorry for the length, but cut and paste is so easy :D : Janja Lalich, PhD, a professor of sociology (and a personal friend) d...

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sadfriend, cult confusion reigns without definition. I recently wrote a brief 9 pg article for a hospital website about the "cult problem". This is what I used as a definition: Cults, properly defined, have been around since human beings devised devotional and sacrificial rites to influenc...

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Liz Prophet was almost always hours late to channel a featured Master, keeping everyone up after a looooong day of activity at the major events. CUT members at conferences yearned to "hear the Masters" speak, so the BAIT was easy to dangle without losing the audience. Only, it was by that ...

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Pita, Atta and Vata are elements, or concepts, from ancient Vedic medicine TM: MIU--Maharishi International Univ. at Fairfield Iowa teaches this Ayurvedic stuff. yes, some bits of useful "science" there but there is also a lot of cow urine and feces bits in the traditional Ayurvedic pract...

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as David and ex indicated it takes only one or two people to ruin an Internet forum just as one lousy juror after a criminal trial can make it hell for the other eleven for days. Sure, people are devastated in many ways and degrees from the RSE experience but we all have observed people who are A-ho...

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CUT called it "Summit University" making it sound like an esoteric college with courses---lots of spoken out loud decreeing/rapid chanting of mantras and pages long invocations for power, health, money, wisdom, political change, judgment of enemies [moi! for example] at least 2.4 hours a d...

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LiS was CUT expensive? Not so much to get in to conferences, their main indoctrination enterprise, but once you were there, the magic began to work and people could/would be writing checks for everything imaginable. CUT had several levels of 12 week indoctrnation courses that were affordable for mos...

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Temple of Presence leaders are former CUT members, breaking with the group in the early-mid 1990s about the time Eliz Clare Prophet was losing members like rats abandomning a siunking ship, esp after the precited and failed "apocalypse" never happened in 1990 and the her dementia slowly to...

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:lol: how a closed-minded, vitriolic, obnoxious organization responds to criticism: August 31, 2011 Scientology Strikes Back at The New Yorker New York Times By JEREMY W. PETERS The Church of Scientology is certainly no shrinking violet when it comes to defending itself. Known for its aggressive lit...

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thanks for that Ockham---maybe Ramtha measured from the other direction :lol: from california moving closer to asia/europe :roll: Since I moved back east in 1993 I can recall at least half a dozen 4.0 or over earth tremors. There is a minor fault near Reading PA where I live. Back in 1972 in Philly ...

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thanks for comments above I listened to some of this---skipped around----she sounds like every droll psychic I know who talk about themselves and their "interesting" lives. she admits to voraciously reading R directed books in the early days---schooled in the occultism that appeals to so m...

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Justice served? Members speak on Union County sect, leader's appeal The Taos News By Chandra Johnson Monday, August 22, 2011 As the Eighth Judicial District waits to hear if the New Mexico Supreme Court will review the case of a church leader convicted of sexually touching underage girls in 2006, ma...

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DUK, you are not by far the only one with these recovery anxieties. Most of the people I've encountered since 1980 who have left RSE-like cults have anxieety and panic after leaving. One lady I know who left a small channleing cult that used "transformative" techniques, a therapist now, ca...

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Zimbardo has been trying to 'get past' his 70s image as the "prison experiment guy" but it is still relevant http://www.zimbardo.com/zimbardo.html http://www.lucifereffect.com/ below is an example how this same malignant process occurs in naive "boot camp" style therapies no matt...

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diaper :?: that depends.... ;-) from the beginning the original Ramtha raised the barre of purity [you are God] so high that every "Master", including famous movie stars like Shirley MacL who could dance, could never reached that high no matter how far she could split her legs or high kick...

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on another thread MC and pseudoscience I mentioned a reform sect of CUt called Temple of the Presence. here is a very short clip and a longer one of the leaders talking about "the God within, the I AM http://www.youtube.com/user/TOPGreatCommission#p/u/3/T70cNYdY_pI http://www.youtube.com/user/T...

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vanilla, not sure where the woman who was bitter about Ramtha yet ran MC is today there are often very intense squabbles within movements, sometimes leading to a schism. The schisms generally take the shape of reform or "getting back to the roots" of the movement. eg, almost all Bible cult...

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as a stereotype, yes it is pushing the envelope to compare rse students to nazis and peoples temple members but we all know, or we all should know, that stereotypes are almost always misrepresentative of the particulars and individuals, be they Nazis or devotess of Jim Jones. I've been around long e...

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oops...meant "vial" not vile

still

at that stuff after all these years

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I glanced at this site again http://www.mastersconnection.com/ for the h of it the equivocation inherent in RSE abuse of science facts is remarkable eg, this site posts realm new breakthroughs in science like Using data from the VISTA infrared survey telescope at the European Southern Observatory's ...

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thanks, fms, but you also added something to be considered... any "hit" when dealing with occult or hidden from the senses effects is always more impressive than what we can predict with science or conscious logic. Astrology is impressive if it seems right 10% of the time, whereas modern m...

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unwritten rule of thumb for "professional" astrologers and prophets: if you say what, do not say when if you say when, do not say what (or at least be very vague about it). btw, I learned how to cast horoscopes in the early 1980s and had "readings" done by a few high level [publi...

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Plan all you want but unless you want to live in today's North Korea you have no immediate and ready option to end RSE. Hell, mighty Rome could not wipe out the crazy quilt of Christian and Gnostic cults---but without persecution the more unstable Gnostic groups tended to implode from their own lack...

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LiS good choice, American Woman ;-) in that vein I thought "Look What They've Done to my Song, Ma" is appropriate for recent ex-members http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqg3kcwAgso Look what they've done to my song, Ma Look what they've done to my song Well it's the only thing I could do hal...

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sane islamists will most likely stay away from any criticism of this rse goofiness and merely point to it as a prime example of american decadence.. but Scott McKenzie must be horrified to see how his gentle, moving song has been hijacked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_McKenzie it reminds me of ...

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vanilla I think you bring up a good point re spiritual people of course many of these folks are humble and good citizens but there is a "disease" [already noted in other posts] among the self-proclaimed spiritually enlightened: enlightenment = entitlement. that old zen adage about 'chop wo...

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LiS I think you are closer to why indigo used that handle---makes sense but the indigo child movement has definite parallels to JZenter-prizes there's a channeled entity/group being called Kryon [I read/have a couple of Kryon books channeled by Lee Carroll] that augmented belief in this alleged 'ind...

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fyi, ex is referring to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_Children
and
http://www.dmoz.org/Society/People/Indigo_Children/

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Even Oprah talks about how she uses this process daily to guide her life. Here is a small example of results in my life and my close friends' lives, from this practice ,over the past 8 months or so. It is not witchcraft, delusional, or evil, in any way. indigo began this thread incl quote above. I ...

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David, Chandler got much of this story right, I think, but I agree that he missed on the lack of religious upbringing leads to experimental religion. I was an altar boy in the days when we still memorized/said the mass in Latin! Today I wear catholicism like an old battered coat with a splendid lini...

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http://www.ccel.us/newage.ch6.html ch 6 P 54 Headliners and Honchos The expression "New Age" swept into vogue in the 1970s and 1980s, helped along by circulation of the New Age Journal and a book by Mark Satin called New Age Politics. Marilyn Ferguson's best-selling Aquarian Conspiracy, a ...

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ex some good points you make... Unconditional love can be perpetual only between rocks. Human beings are not rocks. Therefore, unconditional love can not be perpetual between human beings. how's that for a ;-) syllogism :?: I think we human folk can approach instances of unconditonal love, but to as...

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yes, Iknow----all channlers will resort to that "out" so using the fortune cookie message test: if ramtha says "I am limited by JZ because I am using her brain/voice box now" then we would kindly request that the entity Ramtha who by self-definition sees all including stuff hidde...

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Speaking of JZ/R's accent: I understand that, "Ramtha," is supposedly takes over and JZ goes to the void while, "Ramtha," is using the body. So, "Ramtha," is supposed to have control of the brain at a low level, so, "Ramtha," should have direct access to the ...

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it's been over 30 years for me when I broke/struggled away from CUT which had many parallels to RSE one year before that I was deep enough into the cult milieu that I entertained leaving my then one yr old daughter and wife but my wife of 7 years had enough of my spiritual bs and elitist behavior an...

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yer welcome kensho as exciting as brain science has become due to advances in technology and biochemistry the scientists are cautious with conclusions. Cults and armchair intellectuals however are not! eg, Eagleman's work has broad implications for the judicial system that is already applying certai...

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fascinating lecture. I learned something I did not know about the esalen connection and est helping to support physics proper by investing in the "mystic" or Hippy end of the discipline's spectrum. a parallel comes to mind: the porn industry was highly responsible for initially stimulating...

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Years back when emf started i got into "tension" with some emerging RSE members with my positions, which I hope are understood as more than mere opinions to people reading. One of the most damaging blocks that I have seen in the past 30 years to recovery from RSE-like cults is to hold on t...

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To me it is important to recall where all this 'positive thiking" and "law of attraction" came from. Specifically it hinges on the work of Phineas Quimby who had a deep infleunce on Mary Baker Eddy and a host of neo-religionists like Dresser, the Filmore's that started Unity church, C...

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well put Ockham the law of attraction as stated in New Thought/The Secret is inept and inadequate...is easily dismissed as nonsense when put to a test. yes we attract certain reactions from people and the environment depending on our behavior. but their is an infinitely vast reality out there that w...

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I work in a psych hospital so we use "advanced directives" and "wills" if a patient has or supplies them. However, these "wills" are more for medical treatment, not psych, wherin an incapacitated pt usually has a guardian with power of attorney to sign all that stuff. T...

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btw, Lenz would rant and rage at his students often for hours at their monthly meetings, and they would sit there and take it. he lived alone save for a girlfriend or two at any time, and avoided personal contact with "students" as much as he could....he had to be "staged" in som...

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all the above is possible as there is a level of unpredicabilty in someone as imbalanced and calculating as JZ. Alcohol alone without all the other "pills" is disinhibiting----any one in a fit of rage can take a gun while half-drunk and cause considerbale damage to others and self. My skep...

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Marie, Most of the "suicide" cults in recent hstory [past 100 years] actually practiced or rehearsed for it. At least the leaders knew what to do---Koresh apparently ordered the place to be torched by his top men when he knew it was "over". Jim Jones had 'kool-aid' sessions many ...

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ex I watched that video you posted---good one. Then I clicked on this one of R/JZ teaching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOIgQcVlnkA&feature=related :lol: truly a trance inducing style or delivery---like a sunday bible preacher with a "serious" homily.....they teach this stuff in Bibl...

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I think the more you look, the more similarities you will find among all channelers. When I baled from CUT in 1980 and researched this, I found three primary influences in the channeling trade stemming from the 19th century: New Thought, Theosophy and Gnostic/apocalyptic Christianity = New Age Movem...

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V this is less about crazy than convincing to some people. after all these years of looking into channeling and why people believe, it seems to me that some large portion of the human race is more "hardwired" to believe in ghosts or believe in channeled spooks than others. JZ like all chan...

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clarification...what I meant by MKULTRA'a trash heap was a series of failed covert governemnt experiments in creating social control, truth serums, and deployable agents that nevertheless had some success but did more harm than good. Many of thse techniques migrated into the ever curious civilian po...

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If RSE is/was one great CIA type experiment, then we could easily lump every New Age cult that uses social control techniques into the same question. Altho MKULTRA was officially ended in the late 1960s, I am sure that the "government" continues to research ways of influence and getting &q...

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vanilla, not that I have THE answer, but I learned long ago that for intervention to work, the thinking mind has to be engaged. Most often when skeptics argue with new agers, skeptics come across as "having the answer" or the disconfirmatiom and often argue through conclusions. It is like ...

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:-) WE, I knew it was a typo, believe me...I reacted to iamgod vs iamagod because the distinction is important in my way of seeing this. Long ago when Shirley MacLaine was a Ramtha devotee she later aligned with Kevin Ryerson, a channeler also, who was in her movie "Out on a Limb" as himse...

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Ramtha/JZ is small potatoes compared to the immense cult empire left behind by magician/miracle-man/god Satya Sai Baba who would/did not appoint a successor and was found to have 'hoarded' millions in gold, silver and cash. A guru's legacy: Death threats and scandal The passing of Sai Baba has left ...

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did WE make a froidian slip with

iamagod

meant iamgod17...

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iamgod17 your expressed 'confusion' is eloquently if so personally stated. It reflects what so many experienced, as you can tell from EMF posts, with Ramtha. But this is the most common reaction ex-members of most cults have--"It was so beautiful [for me] in the beginning" No one would joi...

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tragic story, indeed, G2G. Vanda in no way deserved this, no more than John Lennon deserved to be shot by that nut Mark Chapman. Mentally ill/psychotic folk do not follow any rule but that from "within" when they commit such horrendous acts. Having Schizophrenia means to be "split&quo...

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http://www.proxywhore.com/invboard/lofiversion/index.php/t219983.html Authentic Drama QueenDec 22 2010, 02:38 PM A visit to Bugarach is said to have inspired Steven Spielberg in his film, Close Encounters of the Third Kind – although the actual mountain he used is Devil's Tower in Wyoming. It is als...

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Ponysong

good on you!

I had not heard of "Magic Mountain" either but it appears to be another one of those "secrets" that entered the New Age survivalist mythos many years ago.

Mt Shasta in Calif enjoys the same superstitious abuse

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French village seen at threat from Apocalypse sects Reuters By Vicky Buffery PARIS | Wed Jun 15, 2011 PARIS (Reuters Life!) - The tiny southern French hamlet of Bugarach has drawn scrutiny from a government sect watchdog over droves of visitors who believe it is the only place in the world that will...

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I added this section on new research re "optimism" to the paper, a work in progress..... it goes after 'addiction, habit, devotion and belief" section Cult members and optimism Research in neurology and sociology agrees that human beings have an “optimism bias.” We are hardwired to be...

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jt My impression: JZ and the male problem may go back to Judy at age 4 or 5, an alleged "rape" abuse by an uncle--she wrote about it in her autobio A State of Mind [revealing title as far as objectivity, eh :?: ], then abandoned by abusive father, later her first husband was abusive..so we...

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:roll: Black Supremacist Nation of Islam Pushes White-Dominated Scientology Hatewatch | Southern Poverty Law Center By Leah Nelson On June 7, 2011 Two of America’s better known UFO-friendly religions, Scientology and the black nationalist Nation of Islam [1] (NOI), now have more in common than unusu...

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Expanding on The Transtheoretical Model regarding Exit Counseling and Cultic Studies ( :sad: the footnotes did not come linked or numbered below, but I will notify this thread when I post this later on my website) Joseph Szimhart, 2011 Abstract People form groups of various kinds from planned or eng...

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freemysoul I finished a draft of a paper for the ICSA conference coming up in Barcelona in July http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_respond/event_conferences_workshops.asp I am not going but I will be represented on a panel with Spanish psychologists addressing the same topic-- the paper is about why c...

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justtruth If I may. I suggest you ask yourself some questions: What are "original" teachings of Ramtha? recall that JZ said "he" or it appeared to her in 1977. Her partner/husband at the time said in an interview in 1984ish http://www.amazon.com/Soulmates-Jess-Stearn/dp/055325150...

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I didn't realize this would become such an interesting thread, but again, the skeptiko question drives us into the heart of what is wrong with ramtha. Ockham makes the point well, I think: That's also the difference between a ramster, platonist, Catholic priest or physicist. All the latter are willi...

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KENSHO thanks for feedback the same or similar rational principles operate whether one is defending membership in a cult or in an established religion however the so-called great religions are wide-ranging and include a history of conduct codes and social governance sorely lacking in new religions a...

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I've been in many "cult" related diners over the decades and some mentioned in the article. One not mentioned is Father Divine's " Peace Mission" with cafeteria in Philadelphia where a setting and meal is yet served for Fr Divine though he's been dead all these years. Good food a...

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Where Food Is God How fringe religious groups helped launch the healthy eating movement. Slate Magazine By Daniel Fromson June 1, 2011 Sri Chinmoy: Near the buffet at Annam Brahma (Sanskrit for "food is God"), a white-robed Bengali man played the flute on a muted TV. As I sat down to eat v...

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Godzilla appeared after WW2 as mythic adaptation of Japanese to ever present threat from nuclear energy and danger from "out there" in ocean. The popularity of freak creature films with Godzilla morphing from killer to protector in some shows demonstrates how the Japanese psyche has coped ...

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similar experience in RSE 8) :?: Ms Rainer had previously said that she was told by senior Scientology members that abuse was punishment for being bad in a previous life. "She said, 'Just say no, keep repeating that'," Ms Rainer told the ABC in an interview last year. "They told me it...

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ponysong welcome to the discussion! if you have not come across this, one good book that has helped a number of former members is Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Lalich and Tobias http://www.amazon.com/Take-Back-Your-Life-Relationships/dp/0972002154/ref=sr_1_1...

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LAB there is a story here but nothing as big as the 20/20 expose in 1988 has been done again. Perhaps to the really BIG networks Ramtha is old news or just another two-bit sideshow like the Camping thing a week ago. If it won't grab ratings, no producer will waste their time or the network's money. ...

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AD no, but I read thru Lena Phoenix web site---I wonder if that is her given name?? the inst where she learned to "write" has a colorful history---it is based on a school/cult run by Chogyam Trungpa, one of those "enightened" tibetan buddhist's who charmed the pants off american ...

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had someone come by in time to save ms paulsen, I am sure that rse would claim that the big guy sent a "runner" or heard her desperate calls. tragic, no matter what the context, but revealing. The utter selfishness of trying to be totally self reliant and hiding all alone to survive in a s...

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