The EnlightenMeFree (EMF) Online Debate Forum

joe sz

This is a pretty good synopsis of NLP. I hope ity helps that some people are making too much of NLP's powers. It is not NLP that works but the belief in it that makes people more compliant within NLP workshops. http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html Do people benefit from NLP? While I do not doubt that ma...

joe sz

watcha

I will speak for myself. I'm not on any campaign to expose ICSA

shows what I know
I already wrote to carol....

Joe

joe sz

David, Watcha, I really had no idea you were yet on a campaign to expose ICSA. Goodluck..but I really think you are off the rails on this one about NLP and ICSA. You both really need to clear this up and soon. btw, I have no formal relationship with ICSA or any cultawareness organization. By that I ...

joe sz

Its also difficult to maintain that higher state of vibration, when you come in contact with people that vibrate at a lower level, one should be able to do diciplines, or exercises, like i.e. Yoga, meditation, be positive,... and I think thats the state where you can combine them more easily... But...

joe sz

I agree with Tree. Unless the evidence is offered here this remains a non-issue for me because I have no idea what to comment on. I recall trying to look into this conflict with ICSA a couple of years ago but with no resolution and frankly I cannot recall details. Watcha on the other hand has a righ...

joe sz

Be careful not to anticipate that Lee will end up in jail over this. For now, for the court, the evidence shows that he must be tried for crimes. The presumption of inncence prevails until then, that is why witnesses must be cautious in public statements. Based on what I know there is a good chance ...

joe sz

Carol G who works for ICSA has been one of the most consistent voices against using NLP since I can recall from the 1980s, if that is the reference.
I have no idea who you are talking about, watcha.
If you want to email me in private, go ahead. This may a misunderstanding.

joe sz

Do you know if (NLP) -Neuro-linguistic programming, has ever been used by ?exit counselors? or organizations? I?m curious about this, I heard mention that the (ICSA) International Cultic Studies Association does favor NLP to some extent within its counseling program. ICSA related exit counselors ha...

joe sz

good ? watcha. that site, wiliamjames.com probably has the famous proto-psychologist turning in his grave. It seems that the site is governed by Jeffrey Mishlove and others who ran the series Thinking Allowed. http://www.thinkingallowed.com/ Mishlove is a kind of intellectual newagemystic who fits i...

joe sz

Lee Harris did get out of jail on bond the next day. Seeing him in handcuffs was a major victory for the ex-members. The spell is completely broken. as far as aging channelers, the Prophet children have posted images of Elizabeth lately---she looks very much like someone smiling in a nursing home, n...

joe sz

this court session was to establish "probable cause" which was clearly done. Lee was taken away in handcuffs. Lee reportedly appeared as a withered old man [he's 60 I believe, a year younger than me---so give me a break. I still can climb low mountains and I am not a god like he is :lol: ]...

joe sz

Yesterday, Mar 20, in Clarksville GA, Habersham Co, Lee Harris-Onaxis had to appear in court to face felony charges of abusing group members and children in the group. One recent, brave ex-member, a middle aged lady [T] filed the charges and she had solid support from older ex-members as fact witnes...

joe sz

good point: Perhaps a greater issue is the acceptance that self-deception is a good thing. The skeptics dictionary has a really good over view on this topic, I refer to the Skeptics Dictionary often. I mentioned this before but in the Brainwashing book by research neurologist Kathleen Taylor she has...

joe sz

I get your point, but hmmmm...and what you do not know can kill you because you will not see it coming. Just watched DVD Into the Wild, a true story [for those who have not seen it] of a young 'romantic' but troubled fellow who disappeared for 4 mo from his family in 1992 after graduatiing college. ...

joe sz

correct: I meant "Arya Samaj"

BJP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharatiya_Janata_Party

joe sz

David, What you bring up goes to a core confusion when seekers take "miracles" too literally. JZ runs a fundamentalist camp of sorts, something I call New Age fundamentalism, not much different than Christian fundamentalists who believe that through "faith" and enough ritual pray...

joe sz

Confucius say "If you not scientist, stay out of lab" :wink: Interesting science, Watcha, but I am not sure of your point. Sure, science continues to tweek the facts about how we can grasp and manipulate reality. Science is never absolute or totalistic like some cult leaders we know. My re...

joe sz

Why undead humans can and will not walk through walls: http://www.kabbalahforwomen.com/what_the_bleep/index.html Kabbalist Rav Laitman was all over it in this Special Effects Bleep Zohar Lesson (video clip) where he is talking about walking through walls and how one thing can be in two places at the...

joe sz

Publisher: Sovereignty (June 1983)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0932201830

joe sz

Tree I just looked at my stash of archives--I no longer have the White Book nor the LYIL copy either, so I cannot comment. My memory may be flawed [and is] but I recall exit counseling someone around 1986 from Ramtha and she had these books. There were parallels in content. She knew Weinberg back th...

joe sz

ex
as for "rights", this is a muddled situation for Weinberg who wanted to complain about his copy "rights" being violated. If this ever came to court I would expect a judge to do a lot of this:

joe sz

I am not sure of this is original or another edited version

http://www.amazon.com/Love-Yourself-int ... 0932201830

for only $95

and as e-book
http://www.ebook3000.com/Love-yourself- ... _5505.html

joe sz

G2G The "original" of the White Book was not formally published. It was in the form of a trade size, 11x8 in. booklet of Ramtha's teachings called "Love Yourself Into Life", or something close to that as i recall. I had/have a copy from 1985 somewhere. To make the White Book, Wei...

joe sz

"A new experiment suggests that the enzyme telomerase can extend the lifespan of mice by about 26 percent. Some cells can keep dividing forever, essentially becoming immortal thanks in part to telomerase. But evidence for whether this enzyme affects aging and longevity in larger organisms such ...

joe sz

http://www.aarpmagazine.org/health/living_longer_science.html "But what if biologists could change life span by manipulating genes? The first breakthrough came in 1988 when Thomas Johnson of the University of Colorado extended the life of a tiny roundworm called Caenorhabditis elegans by 60 per...

joe sz

http://tmfree.blogspot.com/2009/03/free-web-event-tell-transcendental.html Join us for a lively, free Web Event, April 2, 8 pm EST, to learn a side of the Transcendental Meditation story they won't tell you. TM. Concerned scientists question research claiming benefits. Former members allege secret a...

joe sz

Thanks for the translation EMO. "full of scientific facts that were only to be discovered about 3 to 60 years after it was published in 1925... " From wikipedia: "Spalding discussed quantum physics years before mainstream science picked up on it. He was reported to have had contact wi...

joe sz

"However, David Bruton, Spaulding's closest friend and biographer revealed in "Baird T. Spaulding As I Knew Him" (DeVorss, 1956) that Spaulding's books were essentially fiction" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naacal I first realized that the entire "Masters of the Far East&quo...

joe sz

I think there is some confusion about this idea of having to experience something to know what it is. As a matter of utterly personal reference, of course that is true. To really know what death is we have to die. To really know what losing an arm is we have to lose an arm. To really know what the D...

joe sz

EMO asks a host of questions that could take days to cover with material and then that would only be an intro. iow, an exit counseling. Of course, as Sw Binton says, 'you'd have to experience it to know what that is' :? :wink: Not reallly. You can take your time, research, exchange notes with EMF fo...

joe sz

here is how a pro-JeaneDixon site makes her sound credible: http://www.euro-tongil.org/swedish/english/edixon.htm Note how powerful the selected "hits" from her prophecies can be on the mind of a true beleiver. Similarly, RSE believers will be very selective when addressing or listing ramt...

joe sz

ancient Indo-european languages tell us that 'pope' comes from papa or father. Middle English, from Old English ppa, from Late Latin, from Latin, father (title of bishops), from Greek papps; see papa in Indo-European roots.] JZ as pretend psychic is recreating the reality of oldtimers like Jeane Dix...

joe sz

I have no idea what happened to D Mahr after that book. I see it is "rare" now http://www.rarebookcellar.com/ap_douglas_mahr_ramtha.html Here is an evangelical theologian's report on Mahr: "Douglas James Mahr was the author of Ramtha: Voyage to the New World. Mahr had a significant pe...

joe sz

I can tell you that Steve Weinberg is not well the last I knew of him a year ago. he was living alone, struggling. He edited the 'love yourself into life' drivel [my word] by cleaning up the language and organizing it, thus creating the White Book. This gave "the Church I AM" of ramtha a l...

joe sz

Thanks watchamacallit
I wonder who posted this? It must have been someone with a critical eye to JZ.
Was not me if anyone suspects.
There may be efforts to counter or block some of the information by staff.

Good to see the entry there anyway.

joe sz

Is talk of 2012 still a big topic with RSE? I came across 2 possible sources that channelers and cult leaders anywhere can tap: http://www.vitalsignspublishing.co.uk/ http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/#top and http://www.metahistory.org/ENDTIME/Countdown2012.php This last essay is by someone I knew whe...

joe sz

thanks for the 2c Oldone. This emf forum is partially what I mean by all 4 points. I think it helps especially with strengthening thinking skills as well as offering a wider frame of reference, which we all need to stay sane. David, you remind us that the real story about RSE is in the experience of...

joe sz

Do you also have a list of world wide locations of 'cult' related intervention counselors you can recommend? No list, David. I have contacts all over the globe but I cannot verify how good they may be in any specific situation as counsellors or experts. My suggestion is to go to the usual suspects ...

joe sz

Maybe it is my diplomatic Libra sun, or nurturing Cancer moon or the aggressive storm chasing Scorpio rising sign [take your pick, they are all the same to me :roll: ] but I'd like to help sort out what Tree and David are at odds about here. Tree's point is well-taken that plugging someone she knows...

joe sz

Since 1987 I have been to Australia over 15 times to help with 'cult' related interventions because there is no one as experienced at exit counseling down under. That goes for many of my colleagues also. Having said that, there are scholars and resources in Australia who have addressed this problem ...

joe sz

I thought of this site when posting just before re the legal thread David started. Some one may find the expose on the Ballards interesting to compare with LARSE and EMF. http://users.on.net/~thefirstbruce/Ballards/index.html Many years ago I linked in with these ex-I AMers. see: http://users.on.net...

joe sz

CD said Joe, my experience is that at this stage of my recovery from RSE I am reluctant to believe ANYTHING that smacks of the supernatural. I can easily sympathize with that. There are more important things to do than sort out whether a historical figure experienced blood sweat and tears. but I sti...

joe sz

Nor does the law distinguish between cults and legitimate religious groups. Indeed, any attempt to do so would violate the First Amendment. In United States n Ballard (1944) the Supreme Court took the position that the First Amendments religious clauses forbid government from inquiring into the tru...

joe sz

Dreamin...as to "He even had a gimmick where he put an invisible "potion" on his forehead that would turn into a substance that actually resembled blood, and his followers believed they were witnessing an actual (if there is such a thing) stigmata event." Jim Jones used to fake s...

joe sz

To better understand why we fall for strange behaviors and beliefs read Kluge: The Haphazard Construction of the Human Mind Gary Marcus, Houghtin Mifflin, 2008 to be released in paperback later this spring 2009 Kluge = klooj [rhymes w stooge] n slang A clumsy or inelegant solution to a problem. I en...

joe sz

on recent case one of my "clients" follows another ascended master channeler [same milieu as JZ of 'you-are-the-god-within-you' hype]. The client said that Bruce Lipton's newly reissued book " The Biology of Belief: Unleashing the Power of Consciousness, Matter, and Miracles " pr...

joe sz

oh, I forgot to mention that back in the 70s and 80s it was a common reaction among observers to note that people went in one end of the est trainings with all kinds of normal issues, anxieties, or curiosities
and
they all came out the other end obnoxious...

joe sz

never took the est training or anything similar but I have over the years helped people recover. One woman client in Santa Fe invited me to come to an est/Forum/Landmark recruiting meeting after I exit counseled her around 1989. The esties assumed she was still "in." She wanted to see how ...

joe sz

I went out on a limb a bit with this reference to the Bonewits scale. fyi, Isaac and Phaedra Bonewits also operate a Real Magic neo-pagan "school" that most skeptics and conservatives in religion might view as spuriously conceived. I am not promoting the Real Magic school http://www.realma...

joe sz

http://icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/benjamin_elliot_5groups_en0703.htm "This article uses the Bonewits Cult Danger Scale to evaluate the author?s subjective experiences with five groups: Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, Avatar, Center for Creative Consciousness, Conversations with God, and ...

joe sz

tree I beg to differ Mafu was/is a MAJOR splinter group and practically a clone in the beginning. There are many ways around a stupid trademark. Many smaller ascended master workshop groups have appeared since 1980 with similar styles and content. Unless JZ specifically designates clearly in a will ...

joe sz

lurker the "cult" is inside the mind and "experienced" as true--that is what mind control is. JZ can/will die yet some true "experiencing" believers will continue to plow on with the Ram's teachings just as the old I AM Actvity cult has since the I AM leaders died [1939...

joe sz

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/08-12-23.html#feature Above is a longer version of Stephen Greenspan's "Why we keep falling for financial scams" that was in today's Wall Street Journal "Weejend Journal" http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123093987596650197.html worthwhile reading if...

joe sz

G2G reminds me of one of my favorite books for understanding the Hindu faiths, the autobiography of Agehananda Bharati "The Ochre Robe" (1980). He was an Austrian Leopold Fischer who as a teenager embraced the Hindu culture in Vienna, then traveled to India after WW2 where he became one of...

joe sz

Prem Rawat, aka "Mrajee" [that's how it sounded to me the first time i met a premie in the 1970s] is a prime example of a parent creating a spoiled monster of a child. This guy was picked at age 12 or 13 to succeed his dad as godman in his Radhasoami lineage of Sant Mat gurus, whish was a ...

joe sz

in the past most channelers including Liz Prophet saw Sai Baba as competition but this guy incorporates sai bab, a neo-reiki thing he calls Rising Star, and ascended master channeling. His movement is a patchwork New Age stew for indiscriminate seekers! It is significant that he was a hypnotherapist...

joe sz

Has anyone here heard of or encountered channel Derek O'Neill, his Rising Star Healing and Agni Prema? http://www.lightseeds.com/risingstar/rising_star_healing.htm http://www.rhapsodyinlight.com/ around 2004: "The Rising Star system was channeled by Derek O'Neill, a psychotherapist, healer and ...

joe sz

great find, David.
If you read Robert J Lifton "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism [1961; 1989] this documentary on N Korea compliments it "totally."

Joe

joe sz

this is what I wrote about santa claus in that freewheeling essay about the Amanita mushroom I mentioned above: http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/bolondgomba.htm "Folk legends and myths have a way of changing over time as cultures and generations adapt new images and characters to old stories. ...

joe sz

happy whatever to you all too... littlewiseone points to Newton's birthday but Newton was "religious" and Christian despite his denial of the trinity and various other church doctrines. Most of his adult life he privately pursued alchemy and believed in the potential of "sympathetic&q...

joe sz

The reason the Legend of the Seeker series intrigues me is its weird exposition of Ayn Rand's philosophy of the individual as prime entity. Rand, the author of Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead had a devoted following that resembled any self-sealing system that we often call a cult. The Seeker's i...

joe sz

http://www.legendoftheseeker.com/ Anyone following this new series on tv? I watched a few episodes on line. reminds me of my days with Liz Prophet's group when fighting evil forces with magic was ordinary reality. The series is produced by the same folks that brought us the recent Xena and Hercules ...

joe sz

http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/12/homeopathic-revolution-by-dana-ullman.html here is a sample from the review: "One part of Ullman's analysis I thought was particularly misleading. He says, After just a month of treatment, Charles had to admit that Gully's treatments were not quackery aft...

joe sz

http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/08/charles-darwin-and-homeopathy.html Unfortunately, his trust and friendship in Dr Gully took a turn to the tragic. His daughter Annie, who he adored, became very ill with extreme vomiting. Fearing she had the same illness as himself, he put her in the care of t...

joe sz

watcha I am aware of most of the basic arguments--believe me, and I did look into this years ago and the new ones you posted are also interesting and seemingly convincing. But this is my problem with homeopathy, whether in diluted form or in untraceable amounts in the remedies: If I drink a glass of...

joe sz

forgot this from 2007 above link Dantas F, Fisher P, Walach H, Wieland F, Rastogi DP, Teixeira H, Koster D, Jansen JP, Eizayaga J, Alvarez ME, Marim M, Belon P, Weckx LL. Department of Clinical Medicine, Universidade Federal de Uberl?ndia, Brazil. dantasfla@gmail.com BACKGROUND: The quality of infor...

joe sz

watcha I know you are not arguing with me or any person but you are arguing with the medical establishment and science. have fun with that 8) Here is a sample of what homeopathy is up against to this day: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17227742?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed...

joe sz

raw nerve?? :shock: :wink: Homeopathic remedies to me do less direct harm than common approved medicines because they also do little good in the long run beyond placebo, despite all that apologetic stuff you posted above, Watcha. Here is a sample of how I see it from Dr Steven Barrett in 1987: 4.4: ...

joe sz

careful with Price's pov. I reviewed one of his books: http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/top_secret.htm Top Secret: The Truth Behind Today?s Pop Mysticisms Robert M. Price Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 2008 ISBN: 978 1 59102 608 2 370 pages, hardback Review by Joe Szimhart, 2008 August Top Secret i...

joe sz

http://www.adidaarchives.org/corrupt_inner_circle.htm This controversial "teacher' [Franklin Jones] has littered the spiritual landscape with wounded seekers since he formed his cult in the 1970s, yet there are those who swear by his "enlightened" status all over the world today. Here...

joe sz

Some of you may know of this infamous "guru" who was "divine" to devotees: Adi Da Archives http://www.adidaarchives.org/adi_da_death.htm Adi Da dies - mahasamadhi - on Thursday, November 27, 2008 of a massive heart attack on his island in Fiji (death of Da Free John aka Franklin ...

joe sz

IGNATIOUS no buttons pushed--just that your comment was a common one and others might benefit from an answer. Obviously, people like Dr Cialdini who studies "Influence" and wrote a book by that name is less likely to get conned, just as a skilled stage magician/hypnotist [Derren Brown, eg]...

joe sz

Years ago, 1986 I think, I gave a lecture about cults to a skeptics group in Albuquerque. The same question came up as to "intelligence" and educational level of "typical" cult members from a scientist. He would not believe me when I used the example of Brian Josephson who became...

joe sz

Thanks for pointing out the new website http://jzknight.com/. Sometimes irony has a way of exposing the truth. "JZ Knight responds to developer claims that RSE sewer is overtapped"........"Knight, one of the greatest minds of the 21st Century and recently featured on CNN?s Larry King ...

joe sz

when it comes to kids and their irrational fears, I believe patience and doing nothing at first but sitting and listening, letting them talk it through calmly first is a good start. Reasurring them that you are not afraid of the snake is good. Sometimes these things pass on their own--kids figure th...

joe sz

Last night, my wife, 18 yr old daughter and I watched the MSNBC documentary on Jonestown. An excellent presentation in the words of the witnesses. No "experts" appeared on the show. There was no need. When the Jonestown tragedy hit the news I was just getting involved in Eliz. Prophet's cu...

joe sz

Around here, you will pay a fine of $300 if caught: http://www.phila.gov/philacode/html/_DATA/TITLE10/CHAPTER_10_600_PUBLIC_PLACES_P/10_609_Public_Urination_or_Def.html ?10-609. Public Urination or Defecation. [92] (1) Definitions. (a) Private Property Used to Accommodate the Public. Any building, s...

joe sz

here is something from Martin Cannon who did primary research on the "myths" of Cathy OBrien back in the day... http://blather.net/blather/1999/03/here_be_dragons.html +Addendum, February 4th, 2002+ From: "Martin Cannon" mjcannon137@yahoo.com To: Mark Pilkington Mr. Pilkington, G...

joe sz

http://www.amazon.com/Trance-Formation-America-Cathy-OBrien/dp/0966016548/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225522125&sr=8-1 I bought and read this book, Trance: Formation of America by Mark Philips when it first came out. In would retitle it "Transparantly fictional trance-formation ...

joe sz

http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/erin_prophet%202008.htm Prophet?s Daughter My life with Elizabeth Clare Prophet inside the Church Universal and Triumphant Erin Prophet, 2009 Guilford, CT: The Lyons Press ISBN 978-1-59921-425-2 286 pages, $24.95 hardbound Review by Joe Szimhart, October 2008 Ten ye...

joe sz

G2G hey, laugh all you want. I do. This stuff IS funny except to those who take it seriously and a few cult apologists and sociologists that want to see all religions and new religious movements as somehow equal. Consider this 'Venta retro' from a freaky band that celebrates "cults" and th...

joe sz

What fascinates me about studying Krishna Venta and his group is how well it illustrates the granfalloon in operation. I mean who would believe this story?... "Venta who claimed to be Christ, was said to have come from the planet Neophrates many years ago and landed in Nepal. He was teleported ...

joe sz

I brought up Kishna Venta to illustrate a concept I learned when reading Age of Propaganda by Pratkanis, Anthony R., and Elliot Aronson. . Rev. ed. New York: Owl Book, 1992. I have had this excellent book since it came out in 92 and recommend it to everyone. One chapter explains "How to become ...

joe sz

watcha I'm reviewing the book for ICSA. In that review I will list the flaws I found in the book and how Erin leans away from anything to do with what her favored scholars call the "anti-cult network".....wherein they lump moi. btw, I am nowhere mentioned in the book, which is fine with me...

joe sz

I just read an essay by someone about to release a book about this "old" cult. Fascinating--never heard of it before. http://www.answers.com/topic/krishna-venta Krishna Venta 1911-1958) Religious name adopted by Francis Heindswater Pencovic, founder of the now-defunct WFLK (Wisdom, Faith, ...

joe sz

watcha: I understand your concern but after reading the book I think Erin does a remarkable job telling the story and she does fill in with critical information about why she came to reject her mother's world view and the group. You will get a clear idea of just how crazy Mother became and behaved.....

joe sz

I just received and read much of Prophet's daughter by Erin Prophet---well done despite some things I see quite differently about the group. I think anyone who has been close to JZ for any length of time and left RSE will identify with Erin's experiences and insights. Erin "exited" the gro...

joe sz

xindy welcome and thanks for the support you give emf with your words. Recovery goes in stages for everyone with some using various strategies. I was never in RSE but as most folks with emf know, I had spoent some time with a similar but much larger cult in the late 70s to 1980. I lost a marriage ov...

joe sz

:( I meant you can buy it for $7.40.. http://www.amazon.com/dp/1884979017/?tag=clearspringspres Hopkins first published in 1985 Introduction to Mind Sight and Perception Research Lloyd Hopkins Publisher: Mind Sight & Perception Research Center (1985) ASIN: B0006EKBTK 99 pages which dates it easi...

joe sz

This American native Indian never charged for his 'mind sight' classes. Hopkins died in 1994. http://www.clspress.com/mindsightinfo.html You can by the book cheap now for $1.94 http://www.amazon.com/dp/1884979017/?tag=clearspringspres Another Dimension60, was this the guy you meant? If so, there is ...

joe sz

a more immediate reinforcement of the blindfold thing is that a man in the next town over from Yelm was teaching blind people to "see". That would make more sense that JZ just grabbed on to what this guy was doing, ie teaching remote viewing with such incredible suckcess that the whole wo...

joe sz

I was looking up info on new Sant Mat "cults" and came across this German video production re Thakar Singh, now dead but notoriously successful and 'abusive'. see the first German produced video "blindfolding kids in the name of god": http://vclass.mtsac.edu:930/phil/gurufile.htm...

joe sz

By RSE standards, Glen cannot lie and did not if it was "his experience" that what he said was true.
jflick and company cannot have it both ways.

joe sz

oops----needed to finish this: Ineffective, dysfunctional cult members are generally left behind or kicked out by the cult that only encourages the best to remain. It takes enormous skill to rationalize bizarre teachings like RSE's and convince oneself that it is real.

joe sz

re delusional does not mean ineffective or dysfunctional. Ineffective, dysfunctional cult members are generally left behind or kicked out by the cult that only encourages. Most cults I have studied among many hundreds want to retain deployable agents not nutcases with schizophrenia or some other &qu...

joe sz

my 'expertise' is dubious in the academic world but I do know that whenver anyone heads up an experiemnet to set up a cult like atmosphere, the experiementer can easily get caught up in it too. 1. In the real story of "The Wave" docudrama, Ron Jones did get caught up in his 1967 classroom ...

joe sz

I posted that last entry to help focus this discussion but such an involved academic position can also obfuscate it. sad grandfather wrote "Just my opinion, but I think for the "students" it is a cult, and a very insidious one, but for Judy Knight, it is just a highly profitable, high...

joe sz

http://icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/langone_michael_term_cult.htm On Using the Term "Cult" Herbert L. Rosedale, Esq. Michael D. Langone, Ph.D. Even though we have each studied cults and educated people about this subject for more than 20 years, neither of us has ever felt completely comf...

joe sz

http://www.eonline.com/on/shows/thsi/index.jsp

first showing was Sept 26, I think. Anyone see it yet?

joe sz

eye witness is a great source but Glen's testimony is more than just his opinion as it is crossreferenced by so many other views and published evidence. I first heard Glen speak about these things when we met before LARSE gathering 1. Thanks for posting it. Good, honest effort.

joe sz

here is one test the 'scientists' did not use on JZ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_possession It is also believed in Haitian Vodou and related traditions that there are those who feign possessions because they want attention or a feeling of importance, because those who are possessed carry ...

joe sz

In earlier posts people were directed to the work of Derren Brown http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/ If you are in recovery from RSE you should look further at what stage magicians call "mentalism" wherein they can fool scientists with so called powers of the mind. http://magic.about.com/od/fam...

joe sz

We noticed that communicating acceptance of a supernatural claim tends to promote cooperative social relationships. This communication demonstrates a willingness to accept, without skepticism, the influence of the speaker in a way similar to a child's acceptance of the influence of a parent . Anthr...

joe sz

thanks journey....too good. says it ALL about RSE.

joe sz

[I believe I remember 'turn to your neighbor' from romper room and kindergarten days. It's just plain crazy and a violation of our constitutional right to free speech. So be it was around for eons] Yeah, in my research days I attended many 'turn to your neighbor' New Age sessions pre 1988/RSE. I'm p...

joe sz

If they find that Weaver even out of naivete used and "sold" trademarked info without permission, then JZ will win. My advice is to not second guess the jury on this one. And I would not make ad hominem remarks toward the court or jury. If they got it wrong, then Weaver and company can ap...

joe sz

Unlike biased sides in a jury trial, jury members are to stick with instructions from the bench regarding a case based on the rule of law. Even if a jury member finds JZ and her cult to be despicable and this whole lawsuit to include harrassment, they will have to overlook such feelings. If they fin...

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Tree. Science did not show up to test JZ. A few apparently biased scientists did. Yeah, I'd like to get them all on record now about those tests but that could be done simply through email. The way to resolve this is not to fly anyone in because that would be a waste of time. Scientists that are qua...

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"And science proved in 1997 that Ramtha was not me." This is an admission by JZ that Ramtha does not exist. If Ramtha is anything "he" must be JZ. JZ has provided no other evidence that Ramtha exists and she has even trapped herself by a legal maneuver to trademark Ramtha. No one...

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I am reviewing a well-written biography written by John Farrell, 2005. The Day Without Yesterday: Lemaitre, Einstein, and the Birth of Cosmology is the story of a Belgian Catholic priest, Georges Lemaitre (1894-1966) whose cosmological theory based on brilliant mathematical calculations changed Eins...

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california dreamin'

thanks for the feedback. let me/us know if or how your friend takes it in.

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I was browsing for info on antedeluvian myths [pre-Noah flood] and came across this apparently Hindu-western New Age hybrid movement that calls 2012 a Planetary Ascension Year. Something to do with the Mayan Calendar and a Venus conjunction on 2004 that repeats 2012. The lengths some people go to ma...

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David quite a 'hit' you took but as you said all is reparable and no one is hurt. I recall when I first took on Liz Prophet's cult back in the early 1980s, "things" would happen regularly. Once the front wheel of my old Fiat crumbled when I made a turn. For a month or so after I "betr...

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that interview reminds me of a journalist, Lynn B, who called me in Santa Fe once around 1984. She had interviewed Liz Prophet and wrote a nice article for her syndicated "Women in Religion" for a Mother's Day column about a woman who "had her own religion." She got many complain...

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http://www.assap.org/newsite/htmlfiles/ ... ml#Diagram

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http://www.nccg.info/source/complaint2.html

This where Streiker lumps me in with prominent deprgrammers in the 1980s. Despite some good points, the entire article is filled with errors and his weird bias.

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tree EC Prophet had 5 kids, 4 of which (Sean, Erin, Moira, Tatiana by Mark Prophet) are grown adults and some with children. The youngest, a son around 13 now, was reportedly conceived with in vitro and egg implant assistance so ECP at age 55 could have the predicted and long-awaited "fifth chi...

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thanks for tip on the new Erin Prophet book due in Oct. I am already wary of the content, however, because of the endorsement by Lowell Streiker, Ph.D ---

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tree
how was What the Bleep produced then if not by RSE "operatives"? I cannot imagine any film including JZ/R unless Ramtha folks were behind it?
Joe

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swamibinton consider what a Buddhist "views" as reality and free choice http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html the first principle of eightfold path is "right view." "Right view is the beginning and the end of the path, it simply means to see and to understand...

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Marie, Just saw your post and just yesterday finished, more or less, my critique/review of Top Secret by Robert M. Price. NB: I let loose a bit with my opinions in this that all of you may not agree with, but I hope it helps. I posted it on my site and also pasted it below. JZ is barely mentioned an...

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David,
Jim was a musician, something you might enjoy knowing.
http://www.answers.com/topic/a-sultry-serenade
http://www.judikjazz.com/images_gallery ... ighbor.jpg

obituary:
http://www.thedukesofdixieland.com/stor ... beobit.pdf

He was a truly 'remarkable' man.

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David. Interesting you found this. What was your reason for posting it? I knew Jim Beebe [he passed away some years ago] and knew of his trials as an outspoken ex-member of LRHubbard's org. In interview part 6 that you recommend Jim mentions how the old CAN was infiltrated by a Scientology operative...

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I think that Joe would agree that anything that draws us to investigate is all consuming and thus limits our greatest potential. Wolfman, you nailed it. Have you ever read Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco? [The Name of the Rose author]. Foucault's Pendulum is a riot ride into the esoteric in the ...

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What the bleep! So that whole bleepin' LK episode was a bleepin' dog and pony show from the same bleepin' folks the produced What the Bleep?
No wonder it was so bleeping bad.
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[I think that there are many gifts in China and that as the Marco Polo of RSE science, I hope to bring back more than just a few spices. quote] This self-aggrandizement is beyond pitiful. It is embarrassingly so. She will take on China as a scientist? Does anyone know what "treasures" of h...

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This may interest some of you if you have not seen it already http://www.skepdic.com/comments/channelcom.html a portion is below: 3 Aug 2007 Regarding your article about Ramtha, I wanted to drop you a note regarding how people like JZ Knight harm their followers. My mother, along with many others, g...

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wakeup-call said: "Fortunately for me, I am very close to my sister. She was the only Christian (to church on Sunday each week) to stay friends with me when I started up with Ramtha. We both always looked for common ground between our belief systems." I applaud your relationship. It is tru...

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unique and impressive cases of possible reincarnation exist no doubt like this one that watcha offers: http://www.reversespins.com/proofofreincarnation.html My problem with all of these is how ill-defined reincarnation is. What is reincarnating? A person/soul? A memory of a person? Aspects of a huma...

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I like that 'chicken little' story. Thanks for link, See&E TDTC is a red flag for brainwashing in action. How does it work? Let's look at what Bruce Perry, M.D., Ph.D. says in The Boy Who Was Raise as a Dog [2006]. Perry is a child psychiatrist. In one chapter of his book he describes how he wor...

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Lost wrote: "Then, there are modern Dianic and Gaiea worshippers, who exclude the male principle entirely...I was asked to join a Dianic group, but I could not see dispensing with men entirely. And having surfed the Raelians now, they do have a female branch...though, about half of them are sex...

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Tree: A person is NOT the same once having been in this "invisible" prison. Even though JZR conveniently says, "you can leave at any time, there are no seat belts here." Well, the bars are invisible to the naked eye, But very much in place in the brain." Tree also indicates ...

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It is interesting to me at least to compare the foundation myth of Rael with that of JZ-Ramtha. We all know the JZ myth about meeting the 8' big guy with dark eyes in her kitchen in 1977. Claude [Rael] met a small guy from a space ship in 1973: "The group is headed by Frenchman Claude Vorilhon,...

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This is a good thread...thanks for information Watcha said: "He" has also said that the Aryan Race IS the superior race. "He" excused Hitler's behavior, because if one could wrap one's wits around "truth", Hitler meant well because he understood that the Aryan Race (blu...

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watcha--- To prove your point, can you or anyone name specifically [not globally as christian, buddhist, muslim, hindu, etc] what other religion [Mormon, Tibetan Buddhist, Goswami Hindu traditon, Orthodox Jewish, etc] or new religious movement [Mafu, Lazaris, Self-Realization Fellowship, Miracle of ...

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RSE by nature is anti-catholic in a religious sense and by that I mean anti-"universal". RSE is a self-sealing system totally dependent on the disintegrated, radically dual personality of JZ Knight for direction and meaning. There also seems to be an inordinate hatred for the Catholic Chur...

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I invite anyone involved with Geis and 'the process' and thinking of leaving his 'school' to contact me. Confidentiality promised. jszimhart@dejazzd.com Also, a great book to better understand the effects of childhood abuse and trauma on the brain is "The Boy Who Was Raised As a Dog: What Traum...

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Breathe in: Guru is coming Spiritualist whose methods focus on breathing, meditation is headed to Indy Indianapolis Star By Robert King July 7, 2008 In a world wound too tight, Shalin Desai believes the guru coming to Indianapolis on Tuesday has found a way to unbind the knots. Desai, an engineer fr...

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"If I can at least plant a seed of doubt with her, perhaps she will think twice before doing something which even in her surrendered state of mind, she would question the wisdom of it." In my decades of work with intervention, "seeds of doubt" almost never work because the path o...

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re alice miller, this review from amazon.com of "Gifted Child" is a good one, I think: "227 of 236 people found the following review helpful: Who am I, really?, December 19, 2000 By Boris Bangemann "boyse" (Singapore) - See all my reviews When I read this book (which was ori...

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Ruprecht It's been a while since I have posted. forgot my emf id for a minute there! Your "open letter" to mom is quite a statement. Shows me you have thought this thru for some time. As someone above mentioned the letter is really for yourself and "us". RSEMom will most likely f...

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http://www.buzzle.com/articles/the-law-of-attraction-loa-and-magical-thinking.html I thought this article explains the problem with fans of "the Secret" well. "The Law of Attraction encourages "magical thinking". Magical thinking is one of the hallmarks not only of pathologi...

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Prosecutor demands 12 years in jail for sham healer 11.06.2008 MOSCOW, June 11 (Itar-Tass) - A prosecutor demanded 12 years in jail for pseudo healer Grigory Grabovoi, accused of grand fraud, the defendant? s lawyer Vyacheslav Makarov told Itar-Tass. On Wednesday, Moscow's Tagansky court opened the ...

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walk in the park
well stated, poetic account of an all too well worn path out of empty promises
if only we had a rewind button so we could tape it over
the best revenge is recovery
may that path serve her well

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Holy Communion or Eucharist (give thanks in Greek) has a wide variety of interpretations in Christian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist There are different interpretations of Holy Communion among Christian sects. The Lutheran and Anglican are closest and nearly identical to the Catholic sacram...

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I enjoyed this presentation too. Well done, clearly expressed and a great prop! After her final remarks the skeptical antennae in me rose up like like a cat that just heard a familar noise. I do not doubt this scientist's sincerity and her "God" or nirvana experience as being real. But, as...

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I have yet to see the new Ben Stein movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed but the controversy parallels the one around What the Bleep. Pseudoscience and misrepresentation of facts abound in this documentary-like film that attempts to prove that Intelligent Design "scholars" are being den...

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http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/inside/3401/Overview "Doomsday cult leader Michael Travesser prophesied that the world would end October 31, 2007 -- but what happened? Go inside Travesser's cult to meet its leader, its followers and the dynamics that shape cult behavior" this ...

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"About Trudeau, he is more of an alarmist, everything he does is for money,so I take everthing he said with more the a grain of salt. Oldone" I agree. 'Turdeau's' approach is 21st century snake oil salesman style. Sure there is some "truth" to what he says but that merely is the ...

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FreeNow this is in response to helping a child understand if they have experienced mind control abuse. I recommend you look at the work of Dr Bruce Perry. He is the authority on treatement and neurology of brain function in children. By reading his research you will not only learn an enormous amount...

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For ex-members seeking followup therapy in the Seattle area, I have some names given me by mental health professionals. I cannot vouch for their availability or approach but they do understand cult recovery issues. John Goldhammer (206) 306-0322 jgoldhammer@mindspring.com Leland Shields (206) 568-00...

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You picked a good day to post "Jovial Jester" Jokes are best when the punch line reveals a trueism or educates us by surprise. False Prophets must get stoned but Jesters will get canned when they do not entertain well. You make a good point Jester re clique-clique behavior among the School...

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Storing, tossing, burning, selling are common ways ex-members get rid of stuff. Some of the cult stuff is good for "archival" material for scholars and students of the topic, especially people who write critical histories of these groups. I got rid of most of my Theosophy related material,...

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I did not know Yates blamed anything on a "black man"???? Where did you get that? She admitted she did it because she was a "bad mother" and did not raise her kids right. "I killed my children." Her eyes were blank. "Why did you kill your children?" "Beca...

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Lately I've been reading books by Gary Lachman both for personal edification and review for Cultic Studies Journal. Anyone recovering from 'the sixties' and the New Age cults they generated will benefit from this great journalistic effort by Lachman: "Turn Off Your Mind: The Mystic Sixties and ...

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Without true information to challenge what is ingrained in your brain by false belief, it will not easily go away. There is no "Truth Within" as so many in the occult world have been conned to believe. One way to look at this is to consider WW2 Japanese soldier holdouts. Until 1974 "t...

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re fundamentalism. This is a complex often misundestood phenomenon worldwide. fyi, refer to the excellent, thorough study by Martin Marty, PhD, the head of religious studies at U of Chicago. [Marty took over as chair for the illustrious Mircea Eliade when Eliade died in 1986]. http://www.press.uchic...

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more on Henson http://www.free-dvd.org.lu/clams/keith-henson.html I'm posting this about Henson because it is an example of what can happen to an activist that takes on a large, controversial cult or group by any other name. It is such bizarre, fringe territory that most of the population, press and...

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http://www.statelawyers.com/Lawyer/Prof ... eyID=18865
it is Keith but I wonder if there is a relation?

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the keri brenner article mentioned that JZK is represented by a "Keith Moxon".
A well known Scientology lawyer [who I know personally from a deposition] is Ken Moxon---was Keri's article a typo or is there no relation between her Moxon and Ken Moxon?

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Scientology critic free after serving four months; Former Brantford resident ordered to avoid negative contact with group Brantford Expositor, Canada Posted By Susan Gamble March 6, 2008 It's been close to three years since Keith Henson left Brantford and ran for the border, just ahead of the author...

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G2G. Your comments on the 'Gita' in realtion to how RSE behaves shoiws a remarkable insight. The common cults tend to pervert the meaning of the ancient scriptures for their own ends. I recall an ex-Hare Krishna man I know wh was in the group for 10 years and studied the Gita there say that the ISKC...

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There are some similarities between JZ K and Eliz Prophet including how their adult children might view the mother's cult. I just reread this statement by Sean Prophet, Elizabeth's first child who defected from the cult in 1993 after "totally" growing up in it and being groomed to possiby ...

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thanks, voidgate. That's more or less what I recall.

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what/when was the Ramtha dialog teaching on 'analogical mind'? I recall hearing a tape about that nearly 2 decades ago.... Despite some internally logical elements, occultism has always thrived on the pseudo-logical utilizing inference, magical correspondances [as above, so below], metaphor, sympath...

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ex is right---this becomes tedious to argue politics---too many circular patterns, same as arguing religion and cults---except with me and Tyger :lol: one LAST point Sonny Bono, the 'new agey' Scientologist ran and won as a Republican http://www.adherents.com/people/pb/Sonny_Bono.html also from wiki...

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:?: Our goal is to destroy the Wayne Allen Geis cult forever????? :roll: The post above mentioned my name and website page re Geis 'process'. http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/wayne_allen_geis.htm My intention has nothing to do with destroying "the Wayne Allen...cult". My intention is not ...

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"And...of course....there is still the glaring omission of a single person on this site bothering to explain why 95% of Scamsters either vote or sympathize deeply with the (D) agenda and party. Kitty made you pretty, or what? " Totalist cult members tend to follow like sheep whether their ...

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Good question, Lost. I have no answer that will satisfy this complex issue. I just went over this in Texas with a client. One way I look at it is through the identification process. A mysterious or powerful "experience" can shake our identification with our environment and psychological or...

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One of the most common hooks that get people into cults is personal experience. "My experience tells me that it is true." "You can't criticize my group util you've expereinced it for yourself." "In order to understand it you have to experience it." You have all heard th...

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A common question I am asked regarding 'cult' activity is how do people get duped into such seeming nonsense? I reverse the question by pointing out that all people rely on and tend to believe to some degree the evidence as presented, even very smart people. A good way to prove this is to look at th...

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Here's the article: Anons plan `polite' church protest Demonstrations ? sparked by viral spread of Tom Cruise promo video ? planned in 14 countries Toronto Star Feb 10, 2008 Murray Whyte staff reporter They are anonymous. They are legion. And they are either an elaborate, viral Internet prank played...

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Was it something I said? :(

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Scientology insider turns on church The Daily Telegraph (Australia) - February 07, 2008 THE Church of Scientology is facing two major battles, as the niece of the cult's leader has gone public about bizarre rituals she was forced to endure while an anonymous group begins an online war. Jenna Hill Mi...

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The Beatles wrote Sexy Sadie to mock the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexy_Sadie_(song) Finally, he done transcendented..... news excerpt: "The Maharishi lived out his twilight years in an ashram on the Dutch-German border, heavily protected by a high mesh fence ringed wi...

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In 1973, long before we met, my wife travelled to Spain with a strange group called AMRA led [Ancient Mediterranean Research Assoc] by a channeler/psychic who claimed to have knowledge of Atlantis and where ancient scrolls were under the ocean. They arranged a diving expedition and thought they came...

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Lost, No not the same "Lee". Harris-Onaxis is in his 60s and was born in Alabama in 1948. No connection to Story. btw, I listened to the channeled blurb on that site you mentioned. Dull stuff for me.... Due to the ponderous repetition of 'you are the god within you' and other patterns in c...

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Lee Harris once was with Ramtha and later around 1992-94 started his own odd cult: http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/onaxis.htm note this from Common Ground Aug 1995 article on Ramtha, Part 2: "Lee Harris, a former student of RSE and a personal growth facilitator, began holding weekend therapy ...

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For comparison, see how other ex-members handle criticism of their "enlightened" gurus:

http://www.adidaarchives.org/
http://essentialwhatenlightenment.blogspot.com/

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took time to watch the Zeitgeist film. sheesh.. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331&hl=en The film brought to mind the same propaganda techniques used by Elizabeth C Prophet, my old cult leader, in 1978. ECP sounded real intelligent to devotees as she played fast and loos...

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Leemar, Lost is right: "there are few social groups I can think of that don't adopt their own Lingo." In-group jargon is not the problem but what kind of group it ties us to and how much the jargon constricts reason is the problem. Robert Lifton in his analysis of Chinese Communist "t...

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Lost, I did buy a copy of The Secret....it's taking up space on the same shelf as 'bleep'. Here's a better secret: " In framing an ideal we may assume what we wish, but should avoid impossibilities." ..................... Aristotle :wink:

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that was a true Aussie hoot, littewiseone. Thanks.
lmao

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I meant "100 yards" not years

Hell, I'd still be in there.....

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Once in Santa Fe one of our cats, Arco, got chased by something into a sewer tube near our house. A day after she was missing we heard her meows under a grate in the street. The grate was sealed. While my wife kept her attention, I crawled into the 2' diam. corrugated metal cave using my elbows and ...

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Lost, I have the dvd too. At least I could use it as a tax write-off due to my consulting business, so it was not a completely useless investment. I have shelf full of cult related productions like that. You bring up good points but the gist of reactions to Bleep depends on what beliefs the person b...

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"Eagerly pushing a New Age agenda this is less Stephen Hawking, more Oprah Winfrey: the self-help manual for the multiplex audiences of the 21st century. It feels like an advert for a cult,..." http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/2005/04/14/what_the_bleep_do_we_know_2005_review.shtml "Possibly...

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I took LSD a few times in the late 1960s, last "trip" was around 1971. The first one was the most profound, then they diminished in impact. My last trip was boring because I knew what to expect and the cosmic insights became more two-dimensional like cartoon psychology. I could not wait to...

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sorry, took me a while to find this. Stan Grof and his wife Christina Grof organized their Marin Co based Holotropic Breathwork soon after LSD became illegal. Stan was the Tim Leary of Europe, in a manner of speaking, but he had better medical cred. Grof discovered that he could cause a similar 'exp...

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I've been to bookshops in Delhi--no need to scan any :) I thoroughly enjoyed being in India and Nepal for a month in 1981. Sadly, I never had or made opportunity to return. But I did visit the Hindu culture in Trinidad since then. I doubt the Issa legend will cease in India as we know it. Personally...

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I read that article on channeling. here's how it ends: "What this means is that you, a "mere" human being, have the potential for far, far more knowledge and insight and truth and wisdom than all the Ramthas and Mafus and Lazaruses and Ascended Master Jesuses and all the rest rolled t...

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I wrote the following and it is from: http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/ramtha.htm How to Test a Channel In chapter eight, Melton concludes: "However, because the questions of pathology and fraud were answered, nonbelievers will have to come up with more creative alternatives" (156). Creat...

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http://www.ramtha.com/coasttocoast/research.pdf The above is the press report after the "scientists" and JZ held a by invite only press meeting with limited questions. A reporter who was invited called me before and after the event. She was disturbed by the lack of openness and lack of sci...

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watched a History Ch piece on "doomsday" http://www.history.com/shows.do?episodeId=214250&action=detail --a repeat and a popular one. The date 2012 is featured as somehow predicted by Mayan calandar, by the I Ching hexagrams, by a Web-bot cultural and language analysis software program...

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watched a History Ch piece on "doomsday" http://www.history.com/shows.do?episodeId=214250&action=detail --a repeat and a popular one. The date 2012 is featured as somehow predicted by Mayan calandar, by the I Ching hexagrams, by a Web-bot cultural and language analysis software program...

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:? can't take away what was not there...... Notovitch version of St Issa was most certainly a fraud. I'll stick with Dr. Nawang Tsering's view in a letter I have from him that no Issa manuscript ever existed at Hemis Monastery in Ladakh. In 1987 I wrote a critique of E C Prophet's 'Lost Years of Jes...

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Good to see you here too, Jeff. You may be interested in this comment too about Jesus in India... above was writ: "there is a belief among the population that Jesus, or "Issa," as name there, was in India for a time. How do we know he wasn't, when so much has been excluded, tampered w...

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C&E falls apart immediately whenever I haul back and sucker punch [metaphorically or verbally even tho I might fantasize the real thing ] a "I create my own reality" devotee. JZ/R never follows this un-philosophy of hers anyway. She sues people who dare channel any being called Ramtha....

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I learned in art classes, Michelangelo's famous scultpure of Moses with "horns" on his head was actually a mistake caused by a mistranslation of "rays' or halo on face as "horns in the Latin Vulgate Bible. http://www.romaviva.com/Santa-Maria-Maggiore/Moses.jpg "The mistake i...

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free2ctruth I make no excuses for Tyger's humor but you will soon learn that some of his posts follow the advice in the Talking Heads 1984 movie "Stop Making Sense." You must have come across something interesting in your hours of search? Perhaps his joke had some value? Think of a zen koa...

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