Are Cult victims gullible?

There are a number of ways that people of all walks of life get recruited into cults. Share your experience here.
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Sad Grandfather
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Are Cult victims gullible?

Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:01 pm

Well, does that sort of stuff effect you? I have never had the problem. To me it sounds like they just can't get their thoughts together, are lousy speakers and maybe a bit stupid. No one can control your mind unless YOU allow them to do so.
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by David McCarthy » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:44 am

SG posted...
No one can control your mind unless YOU allow them to do so.
Hi SG,
Do you believe there is no such thing as "brainwashing"?
I believe this is what we are talking about here...No?
Before I enrolled into RSE I assumed “brainwashing” was something more akin to what the North Koreans inflicted on US POW’s’ during the Korean War.
Also… I mistakenly thought I was too smart and “spiritually aware” to be brainwashed :oops:
that somehow because my intentions were good “God will protect me and my loved ones from harm!
Besides that..
If RSE was infact a destructive organization the US authorities wouldn’t possibly let JZ Knight stay in business as an international school....
Wrong-go in the Congo” on all accounts. :roll:
The type of “brainwashing” that occurs at RSE can be described as a hidden poison served as “spiritual food” on fancy phillosophical dishes seasoned with fear and paranoia. The food actually tastes nourishing 'especially if you are experiencing some sort of life crisis at the time” but slowly and surely the poison takes hold of the heart and mind until… depending upon the amount digested".. is very effective at destroying critical thinking no matter how smart you think you are, because this process takes place without the victim knowing they have been poisoned, in fact the RSE food tastes so good students will feed it to their children.
Meanwhile back at the ranch! JZ Knight concocts new levels of tasty "Ramtha" deceptions
totally indifferent to lives she has destroyed,
afterall...
There is always another customer who believes they cannot be brainwashed! :sad:

David.

Mind control - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control
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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by ex » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:26 am

yes we allowed jz knight to brainwash us. it might not mater that we had the best intentions and we got deceived. it was the beginning of my way out of my disorientation to understand that i said yes to this scam.

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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:24 am

Like my daughter, who has swallowed the whole ramster thing, hook, line and sinker, I believe it takes someone who is looking for answers to unanswerable questions. Therefore, they are open to the techniques used, because they are being told things they want to hear.

I am probably the worlds greatest skeptic, since I won't believe anything that I cannot prove by scientific method, including the story that it has all been "proved" by science and quantum physics.

Junk email is an example. Since my published email address is easily accessable, I get about 20 scam emails daily. Three or 4 telling me I have won millions in the beserkistan lottery, if I'll just send them my bank account info. I get 8-10 wanting to sell me fake viagra or make my penis 3 inches longer, designed to appeal to those obsessed with sex. There are a lot of others, just saying, "Have I got a deal for you!"

Obviously people are falling for this stuff or it wouldn't be sent out. I find it amusing to think of the type person who might fall for these scams, but it also makes me sad to think there ARE a lot of people that gullible.

My daughter once told me, "Daddy, you are just ignorant, because you haven't experienced the things I have. I know you are not stupid, but you are ignorant." My response was, "No, Nita, I have lived 75 years and have experienced things, good and bad, that you can only dream of. I am neither ignorant, stupid nor gullible, but if you believe all that stuff, I'm afraid you are all three."

I would not say that if I had been in a Korean prison camp and subjected to all kinds of physical and mental torture that I could not have been broken, but as ex said, those who fall into Judy's clutches do go there voluntarily.

My Mama told me to believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see. Whenever I have been scammed, it is because I didn't heed that advise. Now, with photo and video editors, I'd say NOTHIHG you see, unless it is live and in person, and only half of that.
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by Felicitas » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:37 pm

You have said it very well Sad Grandfather: people who fall for Scamtha's BS do so, because they hear what they want to hear. I know from personal experience: I fell for it, because I was at a point in my life where I really wanted this stuff to be the truth. Looking back now, I can see with perfect clarity that I turned to RSE to fill an emotional void. Some things had happened in my personal life, which caused that void and I allowed myself to think that it could be mended by implementing Scamtha's teachings. Sure, many people will say that I was vulnerable and RSE took advantage of that. But that is only half the truth. No doubt Scamtha preys on the emotionally unstable, but it is they who take the first step. Scamtha or anyone else from RSE never pressured me to become a student. I was the one who made that decision freely. Also, I was the one who suspended my capacity for critical thinking. So, in my mind I am just as guilty as the one who handed me the proverbial knife (= Scamtha). I am glad that I regained my senses and saw her for what she really is: a parasite I allowed to feed off of me. So, I have no regret or shame: I got myself into it and then I got myself out of it. The experience has taught me how easily human beings let themselves be manipulated, which is a valuable lesson for certain.

That advise your mama gave you is very very important, even more so in the present times.
the future is unwritten

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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by freemysoul » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:35 am

When someone walks into the doctors office in pain, its excruciating, they haven't sleep comfortably in months, haven't been able to walk, stand, sit, lay, or move much at all without this pain, they go there with the IDEA that this doctor will help them. They make the phone call, set up the appointment, and then attend it, under the pretense that the doctor can help them with their pain. They don't 'know' the doctor will help, they just want him to, they desire to live pain free.
Is it gullible for a person in this condition to assume the doctor can help them if the doctor cannot find anything wrong? Would it be foolish of this person to go to this doctor with hope, and faith and an unbearable desire for this doctor to ease their suffering when the doctor cannot help them? Would it make this person insane if they continued to go to doctor after doctor with the same result?
I am making this analogy because when I first heard of JZ/RSE and read some material from there, it touched something within me. It could be described as gullible, foolish, naive, or feeble minded, me wanting to know more about happiness, love, joy, longevity, wealth and all the other things that JZ claims to offer her 'students'. I didn't want something for nothing, hell, I paid tens of thousands of dollars to JZ and put in days, weeks and months of grueling, diligent hard work to attain what she claimed was right there in front of us, if we just "do the work". Every morning for 12 years I 'created my day' and every evening for that same 12 years did my twilight/blue body/neighborhood walk/etc. etc. etc, delving further down that rabbit hole, chasing my tail, hoping, praying, working my ass off to try and receive what she said we would if we just "did the work". I wanted that eternal bliss, the unfaltering happiness, the immense wealth, yaddy yaddy yada, and I didn't want someone to hand it to me, I was willing to do whatever JZ said it took to get me there, knowing that I had to give to receive.
What I've found after all those tedious years, and months of rehabilitating my wounded spirit, was that there is no magic lamp, no fairy tale ending, no fabulous wealth or eternal bliss gained by all the crap that JZ claimed was the way to get there. She is a liar, and a predator, who gets great pleasure out of watching people like me, waste 12 years of my life, being the hamster on the wheel. She enjoys the control that I gave her over my life, and the fact that I paid her to deceive, manipulate and humiliate me with some, what I felt at the time, profound words and beautiful ideas.
Calling me gullible is a little insulting, because it insinuates that I am easily fooled. If this were true, I would still be a 'student' of JZ Knights, one of her many puppets that follow her without question.
The fact is that I saw through the charade, it took some time, but I saw through it. I didn't accept with blinding obedience everything I was told. There came a point where I stopped lying to myself and justifying all of the lies and untruths I had been told. There came a moment that, not just some of the things I was told, but everything I was told by JZ Knight about these beautiful ideas I was chasing the way she said to chase it, no longer held the weight they did in the beginning. This is because even though I followed through on what I was told, I didn't completely disconnect from rationale. Once I became willing to stop taking everything JZ Knight said as gospel, it became easy to decipher her manipulative game. With the help of loved ones that I had never disavowed, and the compassionate people on this site, I have reestablished common sense into my life, and with that, happiness.

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Psychological coercion that causes psychological breakdowns

Unread post by David McCarthy » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:25 am

Thank you freemysoul
Your post came as a breath of fresh air on this troubling thread.

For anyone to say Cult victims are somehow gullible to have joined a Cult such as RSE demonstrates a common and dangerous misconception in our society
of the techniques and power used by Cult leaders and Cults in their recruitment strategy of coercive persuasion.
With this understanding date rape victims have much in common with Cult victims,
the difference being.... a Cult rapes the mind and soul!
And then…
When the Cult victim reaches out for healing, understanding and accountability the stigma by the ignorant arrives to say..
Oh.. What did you do to bring this on?… :cry:

David
Psychological coercion that causes psychological breakdowns.
Some scholars such as Michael Langone or J.K. Ungerleider use the term coercive persuasion in the same sense as brainwashing, thought reform or mind control and connect it to methods of cultic groups in acquiring and retaining members.

Coercive persuasion comprises social influences capable of producing substantial changes in behavior, attitude, and ideology
through the use of coercive tactics and persuasion, via interpersonal and group-based influences.

Coercive persuasion - Wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercive_persuasion
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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:52 pm

freemysoul wrote:When someone walks into the doctors office in pain, its excruciating, they haven't sleep comfortably in months, haven't been able to walk, stand, sit, lay, or move much at all without this pain, they go there with the IDEA that this doctor will help them. They make the phone call, set up the appointment, and then attend it, under the pretense that the doctor can help them with their pain. They don't 'know' the doctor will help, they just want him to, they desire to live pain free.
Is it gullible for a person in this condition to assume the doctor can help them if the doctor cannot find anything wrong? Would it be foolish of this person to go to this doctor with hope, and faith and an unbearable desire for this doctor to ease their suffering when the doctor cannot help them? Would it make this person insane if they continued to go to doctor after doctor with the same result?
I apologize for inferring that you were gullible. You made a very good point with your doctor analogy. I think your point of going to doctor after doctor, seeking relief is well taken. I would point out that continuing to go to the SAME doctor, over and over, might be a bit foolish. Of course, once the doctor said he couldn't find your problem, it would be natural to go to other doctors, but the doctors admit they can't find your problem, whereas, it seems Judy just tells you, over and over, the same lies, and if it doesn't work for you, it is your fault for not working and becoming enlightened enough.

As I mentioned, I am probably the world's greatest skeptic. When my daughter first got involved with Judy, I tried logic, reason, and to me, common sense. When it finally reached the point where she said I was just ignorant of the wonderful world of ramtha, I responded, calling her stupid and gullible.

The last time I had an email exchange, she said she no longer "worshipped" ramtha, but is still involved to the point of giving Judy her money and planning to stay forever in the Yelm area. If she had only chosen to screw up her own life, it would have been easier, but I just cannot accept that she has dragged my only 2 grandchildren (teenagers) along to ramsterland. I guess I am just a bitter old man. :twisted: :roll: :sad:
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by joe sz » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:10 pm

I can't recall how many times I've lectured about the cult problem. No matter what the audience grouping, be they Mensa conf attendees, Freemasons, Native Americans, Police depts, college students, skeptics organizations, clergy, psych hospital staff---I am asked the same question:
What kind of person joins a cult?
Answer:
I am looking at them.

No one believes they are vulnerable to "that" kind of lunacy but that is the problem. It is easy to see how nutty the Ramtha cult is when we see it on 20/20 after hundreds of hours of editing and research done for us. But harmful cult behavior comes in hundreds of differing disguises. Eg, some skeptics found it hard to believe when I told them that a 1973 Nobel Prize winner in physics Brian D Josephson was also an advocate and believer in the Transcendental Meditation nonsense taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_David_Josephson
http://www.bookrags.com/biography/brian ... phson-wop/
An important turning point in Josephson's life occurred in 1971, when he heard a radio announcement for a lecture on transcendental meditation (TM). He attended the lecture, became an adherent of TM, and has since become a student also of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. As part of his daily routine (which may include walking, ice skating, photography, and astronomical studies), Josephson also meditates for about two hours.

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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:38 pm

not sure if this is the appropriate thread to raise the question -so trust the moderators will move as appropriate....
As much as I've appreciated and learned from info re cults, I wonder if in 'the literature' there is any distinction between pre-meditated scams and sincere leaders of a specific credo. Is there a distinction between sincere 'splinter' groups such as early Christianity from Judaism, and Jim Jones type groups.
And to those who perceive all of jz customers as people who chose, who are gullible, who are just foolish new agers, then what of the people fooled by Derren Brown - did the man who gave Brown his watch and wallet and keys and phone do so freely; did the executives who robed an armored car do so willingly. ....
The biggest Ponzi scheme on the planet today is insurance --- do you have any?

Millions of people have been scammed - from encyclopedias and vacuums to gold mines and stock market investments.
Is there a place in 'exit counseling'/the 'exit' process to recognize the dynamics of scams and manipulations/often known as sales techniques beyond the concept of cult.?

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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by Felicitas » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:27 am

In reaction to freemysoul's post: I have no problem with calling myself gullible, because that is - to me at least - exactly what I was when I joined RSE. And that is what I tried to communicate in my previous post in this thread. So, maybe we can agree on the fact that we have a different view of this. Of course, I completely respect that to freemysoul it is insulting to be called gullible. I have no desire going around calling others who have had experience with RSE gullible or anything else for that matter. I like to keep that kind of judgment restricted to myself. This is so entwined with the personal experience one has had with RSE, that it is impossible to make a general assessment about people who fall for Scamtha. As I can speak only for myself, I can say that I personally do not feel like a victim of RSE, because I have not been coerced into anything or done anything against my own will. At the same time, it is also clear to me that Scamtha preys on people who look for answers and meaning and feeds them lies for money. That is a horrible thing to do (betraying the trust of others) and for that she has to be held accountable.
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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by David McCarthy » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:12 pm

No doubt Scamtha preys on the emotionally unstable, but it is they who take the first step.
Felicitas I respectfully and strongly disagree with your above statement..
The first step was made by JZ Knight to deceive, without that we would not be having this conversation!
According to Margaret Singer ...
"No one joins a cult -- they get recruited"
Perhaps when you "joined" RSE you were kind of person that could be easily be deceived or tricked!
Really?

David.

Margaret Singer - Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Singer
gullible - naive and easily deceived or tricked;
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gullible
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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by Robair » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:53 pm

I think that when Margaret say that no one joint a cult, she mean that no one knowingly joint a cult, hey guys I have joint the RSE cult today, I don't think so.

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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by Felicitas » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:21 pm

Yes David, I believe dat when I joined RSE I was more easily tricked or deceived than I am today. The way I see it, I am the one responsible for my life and my actions and no one else. If I had been more discerning then, I could have seen the BS RSE is really about right from the start - after all the way RSE presented itself back then (I heard about it for the first time in 1999) is not very different from the way it is now. I made the choice to ignore the red flags that were there, when I attended my first event and after that. No one recruited me or forced me into RSE. That is the big difference between me and the children that have been dragged into RSE by their parents: they did not have a choice.

This does not mean that I am excusing JZ/Scamtha in any way. To me, those are 2 things that stand side by side: my own choices and my own responsibility for my life (which to me encompasses having enough discernment to see when somenone is trying to fool me) and JZ/Scamtha's choices and her responsibility for being a dishonest, deceitful being. There can never be a justification for lying to people and abusing their trust in the way she has done and is still doing.

Also, I fully acknowledge that others may have been recruited into RSE in the way you have pointed out. That is why I said that it has very much to do with everyone's own personal experience. My experience was not one of being recruited, but at the same time that may very well have been the experience of other ex-students.

And again: when I say that I was gullible, I am saying that about me alone and not as a general statement about every ex-student of RSE.

Judging from my own personal experience with RSE I just cannot relate to or identify with the picture of someone who has been victimized. I do identify with someone who has been lied to, but I also see that I very much wanted to believe those lies. So I guess, I see it more as a kind of shared responsibility.
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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by ex » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:44 pm

i was believing jzr in the beginning. a peorsen i met just leaving rse seeded the doubt which kept me alert and finely woke me up. thats were the testimonies here come in. the chance to make a more informed decision. if people keep theire guard up they will look in about 3 years[my guess] after joining through the scam. i would love to see statistics about 1st customer getting staying customer over years.

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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by freemysoul » Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:36 pm

I really think JZ, in my mind at least, has turned the word 'victim' into her four letter word. The reason she always berated people being victims or victimized, and made it really clear from her standpoint that there was no such thing as a victim, is because she knew she was doing exactly that, and how better to justify your action than to convince your victims that: a) there is no such thing as a victim
and b) no one can ever be a victim and no one can victimize another. This is one point that JZ brings up over and over, in the literature, the videos, events I have been to. I think if people who have attended or read JZ's material will remember what a big deal she made of convincing others, and herself, that victims didn't exist. It is very convenient for a person to knowing do all the things that she has done, convince the people who her actions have affected, that everything is good for you, and there is no wrong, and no one is a victim. And if the amount of times that JZ brings up, talks about, or preaches on victims is any barometer of anything, it is the glaring and obvious shame of a guilty party.
There is nothing wrong with being a victim, or understanding that someone has victimized you, it isn't the dirty word JZ and society has made it out to be. There is, I think, the preconceived idea that people who are victims are crybaby douchebags that just need to grow a pair and move on, when in all actuality, it is perfectly ok to process and deal with the damage and emotional fallout of a traumatic experience that was the result of victimization. There is a huge difference in understanding what it means and letting it rule your life. If I spent my days huddled under my covers because boo hoo hoo, poor me, I'm such a victim, and that mean ol' JZ did this all to me, that would be very unhealthy. But to understand that by JZ's deceit and harmful practices, and my choices to believe what she was telling me was the truth, affected my life in a tremendous way. If that isn't the very definition of victimization, than Webster better spell check his own book.

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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by Lost in Space » Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:22 am

In the common ideas shared by many "New Age" or alternative religions, we cannot see ourselves as victims because, supposedly, we have not only chosen to incarnate at this time, but we have, prior to being born, set up most of the conditions of our present existence in order that we may experience those things our souls require for continued growth. I think perhaps this is how I would interpret JZ's reiteration that there are no "victims". I have friends who share this view, and when, as has happened, events occur which hurt or trouble me, they are not people I would look to for sympathy - perhaps for a bracing talk and being told to "buck up". Still, I think it's human to want sympathy, it makes us feel that people care, and those who feel none, appearing to place blame on one for setting up such events in one's own life do, at times, seem the opposite of compassionate.
The other view New Age adherents seem to share is that it does not matter what happens outside of you, it's what going on inside that matters - you can't chose everything that happens each day, you can only determine how you will view and respond to these events.
Looked at logically; if A has complete freedom and B also has complete freedom, there must be a point where A's and B's freedoms impinge upon one another - or, I can chose everything except as it pertains to you and your choices. So if you chose to do something to me I find hurtful or harmful, I believe I can chose to see myself as your victim, and also, feel excused from responsibility for your choices - only taking responsibiity for mine in responding. Hope this makes sense to somebody.
LIS

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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by freemysoul » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:40 am

Very well thought out LIS. This post has been very informative and helpful to me, seeing others perspectives and enriching my life because of it.
JZ's whole idea of 'you are god' is based on the idea that we choose everything. From our birth, throughout our life and even leading to our death, that we choose also. This was a ridiculous philosophy that I struggled with for years, never fully accepting it because it was so nonsensical. I could never get away from the fact that other peoples choices influence our lives both directly and indirectly, from birth to death, therefore, regardless of us being in complete control and accepting complete responsibility of our lives, you cannot get away from others choices or influences. This, of course, JZ explained away as she always does, that this was also your choice, that you drew people into your life to make these choices. Such a mind tripping bunch of horseshit.
I agree that sympathy was something that I was searching for after my financial, physical and emotional downfall in the wake of my years at RSE, because without a common understanding of the emotions that come up in me, without a recognition of why I made the decisions I did, and without comprehending how I could ever allow someone to mislead me into such a deep dark abyss, all I would end up with is bitterness and anger, resentment and apathy, and I got all I needed of that from JZ. Without the recognition of why I am feeling what I am feeling, which I can only get through sharing the experience or one similar to it with others who've done the same, I just spin my wheels, and leave myself vulnerable to falling prey to another scam just like the one I've pulled free from. Sympathy and compassion have given me back a healthy perspective to my JZ experience, and helped me become more sympathetic and compassionate to others, enabling me to help those who will inevitably encounter exactly what I did when they recognize the lies JZ has told them, and the great scam they have just pulled themselves free from.
It is people like David, and Robair and Kensho, and everyone on this site who have dedicated a part of their life to helping others escape the nightmare of RSE, that gave to me their experience and wisdom and common empathy to share with the next group to see behind JZ's ever failing curtain, and I thank you all.

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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by ex » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:07 am

after being confronted with positive thinking over years i questioned this all the time. in rse the 'victim thing' drove it too far. now i believe that riding this aspect just stops every critic on ramtha and jz in the beginning. you don't wanna be the victim on the ranch thats realy not fashionable there. dissplaing distress is definitely not wanted. every 'negative' feeling heightens our awarnes that something wrong. we shoulden't go into despaire about it but it helps to asses oure situation reallisticly .to bury this warning singes seems not wise to me anymore. if you r the victim of brutality you didn't choose thou you might have shown weakness to a predator and he took advantage. to not acknowledge that there r victims prevents that we take their side and help them toward a better world. to find this lines is difficult otherwise we wouldn't need a juristic system. if we don't get altogether ahead nobody does.

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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:48 am

Thank you ex,
Felicitas
Yes David, I believe dat when I joined RSE I was more easily tricked or deceived than I am today.
Yes..With the benefit of hindsight I think most of us feel the same.
But one is not gullible for the lack of hindsight! and joining RSE does not mean one is gullible...human yes.
What we were subjected to in RSE was a terrible betrayal of trust, I would go so far as to call it a "sacred trust"
A trust that was a virtue.. unless viewed through the distorted lens of JZ Knight's mind then seen as a flaw in humanity to be exploited .

This has been a very challenging thread for me to navigate because it also brings up facing those rocky issues
of my personal responsibility for abandoning my wife and two beautiful daughters in NZ in exchange for seven years in the RSE "teachings".
I understand now what I did was terribly wrong but how could I have become so heartless and misguided?
It is this that I call JZ Knight for accountabilty.
I believe we were all deceived and controled under the influence of a very powerful coercive persuasion induction process at RSE fronted by JZ Knight,
then much like a spreading virus I re-enacted this betrayal upon my loved ones..under the RSE banner of truth and enlightenment :-?
Much to ponder still...
I really appreciate everyone’s contribution on the thread.. :idea:

Thank you :D

David
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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by Felicitas » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:50 pm

Reading the reactions of Freemysoul, Ex and Lostinspace, I get the impression that they automatically assume that my view of myself as not having been victimized by RSE comes from Scamtha's teachings regarding the concept 'victim'. I just would like to make it clear here that this is not the case. I am aware of those teachings, but be assured that my view did nog spring from them. Why is it so difficult to believe that it is possible for someone not to feel victimized by RSE. Maybe, it is necessary to elaborate on my RSE-experience a bit more: I heard about RSE from my mother. What I heard made me curious, so I had a look at the website and then ordered some Scamtha-books. The next thing was that I registered for a Beginner Event in Belgium. While I was at that event, my experiences with the appointed 'teachers' (I remember Greg, Michael, Joe and Mike) was okay: they behaved nice and civilized and there was no pressure at all. To be honest, I had a great time at that event. What made me start to doubt Scamtha and RSE, was the way my mother started to behave. She had been to several events by then (in Yelm) and had decided that the school was going to be the most important thing in her life. She has always been someone who, when she truly believed in something, went for it 200%, meaning that she can be very extreme/fanatic. So, when she heard the teachings about the wine and tobacco, she began to do wine ceremonies the whole friggin' time, starting in the morning, first thing when she woke up. Also, she was so into the 'unlimited thinking' thing, that it became impossible to have a normal conversation with her, because she would respond to everything I said by saying that my thinking was so limited.. :roll: So, the way my mother applied the teachings, made me see it all in a different light. By that time I had already registered for a follow-up event in Europe. My mother was also registered for that event. The thought of having to spend a whole week at an event with my mother, while she behaved in this totally exaggerated, over the top way, was unbearable to me. So I e-mailed RSE asking to cancel my registration and to return the fee I had already paid. That was done without any problem. So with that too, I did not have any negative experience with RSE. If I was victimized by anyone, it was by my mother, because she gave me the feeling that Scamtha was more important to her than I was.

So, this is my personal experience with RSE and I hope that it shows why I - speaking for myself - cannot say that I have been victimized by Scamtha. At the same time, it is perfectly clear to me that many other ex-students have had different experiences with RSE, Scamtha and her 'appointed teachers' and have really been victimized by them. So, my view does not come from an allergic reaction to the concept 'victim'. Indeed, there is nothing wrong with acknowledging that someone is a victim. And I certainly do not think that a victim is a 'crybaby douchebag' as freemysoul said. The point I was trying to make was simply that not everyone has had the same experience with RSE and that there may be also those, like me, who do not feel victimized. Why was that important to me: because for me, with the experience I had, it feels wrong not to acknowledge the part I played in falling for Scamtha's dog and pony show. So, while it is a very important part of the healing process for others, with other experiences, to acknowledge that they have been victimized, for me it is exactly the opposite. If I said that about myself, I would not be honest and would give Scamtha more power over me than she really had.

I never intended for this to become such a big issue and I regret that it did, because it has shifted the attention away from something that is far more important (and which we all agree on): that Scamtha is a liar, who delights in deceiving people and that others must be made aware of this.
the future is unwritten

ex
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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by ex » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:58 pm

i never meant to devaluate your point of view. the victim....bla bla or limited thinking bla bla... are deeply ingrained in rse students. students which r no longer in rse might hader still with this issue. so we might have reacted puzzling to you sorry. the verbal conditioning get used extendedly in later events. beginners are fun kind of new info lots to think about. the generals r nice. you r customer which they wanna have back. there is mostly not much talk about the survival scare. in fact its the best to make a beginner and than get out of there. you did very well. and thanks for not thinking that we r all going overboard with our assasment of rse.

Lost in Space
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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by Lost in Space » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:55 am

Hi Felicitas

I was just wondering aloud, and was not directing my remarks to you specifically, nor responding to your post in particular, but I can understand your irritation. And thanks for sharing your story here. Sometimes I am a bit of an ostrich when it comes to negative information shared respecting RSE. That's because I have a dear friend who remains deeply involved, and I don't want to face the thought of him being duped. Also, I think perhaps it's helpful to speculate about the victim role here, for anyone sorting out what does and doesn't ring true for them now that they are no longer enmeshed in RSE.
Here's hoping your Mom and my friend find a wholesome path that works for them - preferably one that doesn't cost very much. :-)

freemysoul
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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by freemysoul » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:49 am

Hello Felicitas,
I have rarely directed posts at anyone on this site, and when I do, I make it clear as to who I am alluding to and why. As far as my posts are concerned, I am just speaking out loud about my own experiences, not trying to convince anyone, or read into anyone, or diagnose. To be honest, I had to go back and read your posts, because I wasn't sure what you were talking about, but I understand now.
I hope this clears up any confusion or misunderstanding.

Felicitas
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Location: The Netherlands

Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by Felicitas » Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:50 am

Thanks Freemysoul, Lostinspace and Ex for your understanding. I agree that this discussion has shown how difficult it is to navigate in words when it comes to RSE. Scamtha's twisted ideas about various concepts, such as the concept 'victim', are present in the back of our minds and so it is logical to assume that these ideas still have a hold - in various degrees - on us, even though we have turned our backs on RSE. So, even though your replies have not been directed specifically at me, I guess I understand why the word 'victim' reminded you of the way Scamtha talks about it. And yes, I consider myself lucky to have gotten out of there after te Beginner. It was a strange twist of fate that my mother's fanatical behaviour 'triggered' (another word abused by Scamtha) me to see it all for what it really was. And even that wasn't done in 1 day, but a lengthy process that took several years. It started with cancelling my registration for that follow-up event, but even after that, for a long time I was like 'okay, maybe it doesn't suit me, but my mom is still so totally into it, maybe, just maybe there is something to it..' In hindsight, I can see that this view had everything to do with me finding it too painful to acknowledge that my mother had let herself become a fool (in the sense of abandoning her common sense). The things that helped me most with finally acknowledging that, was simply that passage of time and with it the painfully obvious facts: after more than 7 years in the school she still couldn't manifest anything from thin air, levitate, bilocate and all the other stuff. Also, the pattern of Scamtha's predictions about various disasters NOT coming true, started to stick out like a sore thumb. It has gotten to the point where it is the other way around: when Scamtha says so and so is gonna happen, you know for sure that it is NOT. :lol:

Anyway, one final note on my RSE-experience: a couple of years after I cancelled my registration to the follow-up event (which was in 2004), I visited my mother (who lives near Yelm). Coincidentally, on the day I arrived there was also one of Scamtha's special evenings (one of those short events that aren't part of the curriculum, but extra). My mother saw this as a sign (of course), that I was meant to attend that event. So somehow she arranged that I could go too (even though I wasn't a current student) and seeing how enthousiastic she was about this, I couldn't bring myself to say no. Also, part of me was curious, since I had never seen Scamtha live (she wasn't at the Beginner I attended). So, there I was, sitting on the grond in the 'great hall', with all the others and then the dog and pony show started. Seeing everyone rise to their feet and cheer like crazy, when Scamtha entered the 'hall' was a very freaky experience. I felt like a stranger in a strange land. Once Scamtha started rambling, I lost interest quickly (as had happened to me so often when I saw a Scamtha-video or listened to a teaching on tape). I then fell asleep and slept through the whole evening. My mom woke me up, when it was time to go home. She wasn't disappointed that I'd fallen asleep, because, in her own words 'my god had heard everything'. :roll:
That was the last time I attended an 'event' and it was also the beginning of my disentanglement from the last loose ends of Scamtha's BS that had still had a hold on me until that time.

The reason I cannot turn my back on this, is the fact that my mother is still totally into RSE. So yes, LostinSpace, I do hope that my mom and your friend wake up and find a much more wholesome path!
the future is unwritten

Another Dimension60
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Re: Does Jzr use Double Talk-Confusion Tecnque Used-Stage Hy

Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:56 pm

Joe - perhaps you can answer my question: As much as I've appreciated and learned from info re cults, I wonder if in 'the literature' there is any distinction between pre-meditated scams and sincere leaders of a specific credo. Is there a distinction between sincere 'splinter' groups such as early Christianity from Judaism, and Jim Jones type groups.?

Mr. Wizard
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How many of you have listened to Dr......

Unread post by Mr. Wizard » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:35 am

.....whomever. Be it a motivational speaker at a conference, a self help "expert" on the television, a new "guaranteed" way to improve your financial circumstance....what have you.

People, by nature, are not happy with their lot. It is normal for people to want more tomorrow than they had yesterday. Whatever their individual tastes and preferences might be, all people want more OF SOMETHING. Wealth, power, love, friendship....they all want more of something.

OK, so what is the first hook that all of the above programs involve:

1. Identify a personal weakness that YOU may perceive or better yet convince you that you have a weakness that you, in fact, never considered. (Oh gee whiz that is what is wrong with me!!)
2. Squeeze that weakness until YOU "realize" that is what is holding you back from achieving whatever that SOMETHING is that you want.
3. Exploit that discovered weakness that you never realized you had and now that you are so impressed with this program that they were able to diagnose this problem for you, you jump in feet first and say,,,,,,ok fix me at any cost.

Gullible,,,maybe.
Foolish,,,maybe.

Self esteem problem,,,I would put money here.

Regards,

Mr. Wizard

freemysoul
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Re: Are Cult victims gullible?

Unread post by freemysoul » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:15 am

Have you ever been or are you currently a student of RSE Wiz?

Mr. Wizard
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Answer to free my soul "NOT GUILTY"

Unread post by Mr. Wizard » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:34 am

not guilty

Another Dimension60
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Re: Are Cult victims gullible?

Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:28 am

hey Mr Google Wizard -- have you googled Derren Brown?

Mr. Wizard
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Mr. Google Wizard

Unread post by Mr. Wizard » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:07 am

Darren Brown - No. Why?

Kensho
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Re: Are Cult victims gullible?

Unread post by Kensho » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:35 am

QUOTE: "Self esteem problem,,,I would put money here."

I respectfully suggest that you not do that; for you would likely lose it.

IMO it is always a safe bet to not judge at all; but to judge those whom you have not interacted with, or that which you have not experienced first hand and thus do not know in the way that you have, may be revealing characteristics in you that are well...quite simply breathtaking. :shock:

If they are present, may you find an easy path to be free of them and perhaps find compassion and understanding in their stead. :D

With love, Kensho
"Don't let any person bring you so low as to hate them."
Booker T. Washington

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David McCarthy
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Re: Are Cult victims gullible?

Unread post by David McCarthy » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:05 am

Darren Brown - No. Why?
Here ya go Mr.Wizard
'EMF' Message Board • View topic - Derren Brown
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=965
Placez vos paris s'il vous plaît
Joe posted...
I can't recall how many times I've lectured about the cult problem. No matter what the audience grouping, be they Mensa conf attendees, Freemasons, Native Americans, Police depts, college students, skeptics organizations, clergy, psych hospital staff---I am asked the same question:
What kind of person joins a cult?
Answer:
I am looking at them.
Thanks for that Joe.
This may sound strange coming from me but..
Some of the most wonderful and amazing people I have ever met in my life are and were cult members!.
However...
Once upon a time in a town called Yelm "The Pride of the Prarie" in Washington State USA...
I spoke to a City councilor with an invitation to talk about the JZ Knight/RSE "problem"!
he brushed me off completely with a curt remark....
quote.. if people are so stupid to have gotten involved with RSE then they deserve what they got!
Basically he didn't give a damn.
Mr.Wizard,
there does exist a huge public misconception that cult members are "stupid" and or just fringe elements of our society.
Even more disturbing.... many have the same opinion as that ignorant Yelm City councilor who judge cult members to be as guilty as the cult leader.
We at EMF are constantly running into a wall in our efforts to warn the public and the authorities about RSE and JZ Knight.
It's as if they don't give a damn either. But when a tragedy inevitably occurs in a cult such as RSE! the press and the authorities will claim they didn't see the Red flags.
Besides.... they were just a bunch of foolish fanatics :sad:

As if it's not tough enough to recover from cultic abuse.

David
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

Mr. Wizard
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Try this another way:

Unread post by Mr. Wizard » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:16 am

Tell me why you INITIALLY went to an RSE event or bought a tape or book or whatever first enticed you to even inquire into RSE. What is it that you WANTED from RSE and WHY. I buy food because I WANT to not be hungry. I buy a diamond ring to satisfy my vanity. I buy a better stereo because I WANT better sound. People volunteer as it provides the feeling of being helpful. You must have bought into RSE because you WANTED something. What was that "something". Remember, at this point, you have no idea that this is a high demand group. I am curious as what that benefit you were searching for is. If you engaged in RSE with no anticipation of receiving any benefit from it..... well....you can figure that out.

I think you are parsing words. I for one would prefer to stand up and say:

"I went to RSE because I was in a period of low self esteem and thought I could gain from the way they initially presented the program."

as opposed to

"I was gullible and stupid and ate the snake oil and every other dish they laid out on the table. In fact I was so stupid, I spent months and years trying to explain the simple with the most complex."

Didn't JZ say "I will get you over the ditch." What was your personal ditch that lead you to go there. I am simply saying you had a ditch in your life OR she convinced you that you had a ditch in your life and she hooked you. Reference back about three posts on this and I clearly state that all of the self help programs, motivational speakers etc. operate the same way. Convince you that there is something wrong with you and reel you in. Otherwise, why bother to go!!!

Cheers,

The Wiz

ex
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Re: Are Cult victims gullible?

Unread post by ex » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 am

wizard i think you hit the nail on the head. either way.to the other question further up. maybe cult leader go down the road they start by accident the same way we fall into their trap.start with good intention and then they get greedy and criminal on the way. just like other overly successful people who lost a win win situation completely out of sight. how do you wanna differentiate them ? on the amount of money they haul in?

freemysoul
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Re: Are Cult victims gullible?

Unread post by freemysoul » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:04 am

Wiz,
Do you really believe that all the people who attend or have attended RSE have done so out of their lack of self esteem? There is no other reason for people to want to know more about the fantastical world that JZ has created there than the fact that they are having self esteem issues? I'm also curious as from what knowledge or experience do you draw this logic. I'm assuming that your answer of 'not guilty' to my earlier post means that you have never been to RSE, so I don't think you are very qualified to generalize such a complex issue either, but you may know something more than what I am giving you credit for. I am interested to hear though, what brought you to such a broad blanket analysis? Also, I don't get the Dr. whoever connection , are you saying that RSE and Dr. Phil are the same?
Just curious.

Kensho
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Re: Are Cult victims gullible?

Unread post by Kensho » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:58 pm

Wizard,

Why don't you tell us... "why you INITIALLY" posted on EMF "or whatever first enticed you to even inquire into" EMF. "What is it that you WANTED from" EMF "and WHY.?...You must have come to" EMF "because you WANTED something. What was that "something". ... I am curious as what that benefit you were searching for is. If you are engaging in" EMF "with no anticipation of receiving any benefit from it..... well....you can figure that out." ;-)

With love, Kensho
"Don't let any person bring you so low as to hate them."
Booker T. Washington

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David McCarthy
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Re: Are Cult victims gullible?

Unread post by David McCarthy » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:27 pm

Leemar..
RSE is a complete and total joke and the people that manage to get sucked into this organization likely needed some professional psych testing before they ever walked through the gate.
- A Bravenet.com Forum
http://pub43.bravenet.com/forum/static/ ... gid=665986

We have been down this road before ...
No need to keep banging our heads on a brick wall :sad: ..

David
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

ex
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Re: Are Cult victims gullible?

Unread post by ex » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:58 pm

it is a reason to join rse. that doesen't mean for everybody. and it doesen't mean that jz who definitly has a selfesteem issues is free of it. nobody leaves theire social environment if he isen't fooled into presumably upgrading it. comercials pray on this too. so otherwise why can ramtha yell frivolities into the audience and 600-1000 sit down and listen and not stand up and leave? she lied and beat up people. she drives people into suicide. and gets away with it. i don't mind if i get called on my sh... of the past it doesen't determine what i am today. i have learned. otherwise one time pointing this possible mechanic out is definitly enough.

Kensho
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Re: Are Cult victims gullible?

Unread post by Kensho » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:02 pm

Oh no.... Leemar is back? :shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8105U1WY ... re=related

With love, Kensho
"Don't let any person bring you so low as to hate them."
Booker T. Washington

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