The Serial Killers Analogy

There are a number of ways that people of all walks of life get recruited into cults. Share your experience here.
Jingz
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The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by Jingz » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:03 pm

Years ago where I live there was a young couple who together were serial killers. They called them the Barbie and Ken killers because they were young and attractive. In total they abducted, raped and murdered 3 14 yr old girls, one being the sister of the Barbie. Why I bring this up is because the guy, Ken, was a serial rapist before he became a murderer. Once he met Barbie he convinced her to help him drug her little sister so he could rape her and she wouldn't know ( stay with me here) but something went wrong and the sister died during the assault. Her death was ruled an accident, and at that point Ken got away with murder, and the boundary was stretched, he couldn't go back to just a rapist, and he could use it against Barbie to get her to lure more young girls.

That explains to me the evolution of the jzk circus show. She keeps testing to see how far she can go, how much people will take. How much she can get away with. Like the discipline of running at each other?! Only happened once, total disaster, went too far. Once she read about the brain making new neurons while walking, tada new discipline, now it's not enough to walk talk the dribble, you have to 'self correct' by stopping and holding up your hand when your mind wanders, same as the candle, raise your hand when your not focused! What happened to being so still that the hungry lion wouldn't notice you? How come an all enlightened being wouldn't know the best way to teach the first time? I remember my family member who had been there for years and years and was so pissed that my first event I was caught up to all the teachings, the brainwashed believe that the new people are farther evolved so they don't need to wait 8 years for jz to find something new!

Jingz

Lost in Space
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by Lost in Space » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:40 pm

Hi Jingz
You must be in the same part of the world that I am; I know that "Barbie and Ken" case well. And where is "Barbie" now? I heard that she is a Mom.
I am not exactly clear about the analogy you are drawing - are you saying that the way in which she was coerced to go along with "Ken"'s sick and twisted murders was the same way in which RSE extracts cohesion from its followers?

Jingz
Posts: 86
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by Jingz » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:25 pm

Hi Lostinspace,

Yes we are from the same part of the world, in fact I was attending university in St Catharines at the time of all the horror! We were terrified making our male friends take turns staying over.

My point, however convoluted, is that Paul Bernardo evolved into the murderer by circumstance. It was enough fro him to be a rapist, until he got away with murder, now the rape wasnt enough.Jz has evolved into an abuser, and she pushes the envelope a little more every time. She takes it to the extreme and once people get seriously hurt she pares back. From what I have read here from the old-timers she started out with the peace love and Bobby Sherman schtick, no disciplines, just wisdom. Then c&e, gentle and meditative, short time periods, to the hyperventilation sessions that last hours and hours. Blindfolded field walks, again short periods of time, to all day mud fests, filled with stop hand up self correction, the tank, it's a great idea to let 1000 people into that thing at once, blindfolded and terrified. I only did it once, which was enough for me, we started at 8 am and it was called at 3 pm, and the experience brought out the absolute worst in me.

All in all, it proves that there is no master teacher, for why wouldn't he have known the best way to teach us mere mortals the first time? It makes me terrified for my family member who is waaaay down the rabbit hole, the evolution of buxdeluxe college just gets more and more extreme

Lost, I read on a post from you about a lady you knew who used Edgar Cayce to heal her cancer, was she by chance from our area?

Jingo

Lost in Space
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by Lost in Space » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:42 pm

Yes, she was. It was not so much "using Edgar Cayce" as it was implementing some of his home remedies and holistic ideas learned from studying his teachings that she used - She mentioned Olive oil and saunas, for example.
As it happens I have a close friend who is a devotee of the teachings of Edgar Cayce. There is an Edgar Cayce institute, and they have a website. There are prayer circles throughout the world set up in his honour...they exist, though, strictly on voluntary donations.

WofthesunEofthemoon
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:40 pm

For anyone really interested in researching Cayce and obtaining a realistic view of his life and works, please go to:

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1 ... 00593.html

Lost in Space
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by Lost in Space » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:14 pm

Hi, WE

Interesting little write up of Edgar Cayce. I must say, though, that naturopathy has many such detractors as does the very idea that anyone has psychic powers. Curiously, the poster is an anonymous one, and Linda Goodman is a popular astrologer. Many skeptics hold that there is no validity in astrology either.

WofthesunEofthemoon
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:44 pm

Thank you for your comments, as always, LiS. I believe the article on Edgar Cayce originated with the 'Skeptics Dictionary' rather than with Linda Goodman. Here is a link to some comments made in reply to the article, from that web-site, which includes one from Cayce's granddaughter.

http://skepdic.com/comments/caycecom.html

Had to have a chuckle at your thoughts that many do not believe in popular astrology, as I would be one of them. :D


W.E.

Lost in Space
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by Lost in Space » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:18 pm

Thanks, that is fascinating reading WE. I agree with neither of the writers in this somewhat playful little debate, lol. Which makes sense as I neither ardently agree nor am I all that skeptical. I just study religions and groups but have yet to join one. I think there is not enough evidence either way in a lot of cases. Perhaps what strikes a chord with me is the idea that we needn't agree to respect one another's positions.
The people who write for SkepDic (as opposed to the people who write TO SkepDic) are not noted for being open minded or even scientifically impartial. To be ardently against something is on a parr, I think, with being ardently for it. Just my thoughts,
LIS

WofthesunEofthemoon
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:33 pm

On your very last point, I think I would have to agree with you, LiS. :D

WofthesunEofthemoon
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:41 pm

Except I should add that if the situation involved is causing palpable and provable harm to others, such as with RSE, then there is every reason to be ardently against it.

W.E.

Lost in Space
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by Lost in Space » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:21 pm

Hey, W.E., I wasn't thinking of that when I said what I said. I was thinking more that in an argument about the issues pro and con for any belief we need to take into account that rational thought and scientific inquiry can be short circuited by clinging too much to a position either way. What sprang to mind was a psychological truism - if you marry someone who is the opposite of your Mom, is your choice of partner any less determined by your feelings for your Mom?
And I also thought that a position of extreme skepticism could be just as limiting as rigid adherence to a religion or philosophy. As in that argument,
I suppose this same idea could be applied to RSE in the abstract: If upon leaving RSE you embrace ideas and beliefs which are the extreme opposite of everything RSE stands for, are you any the less having your choices ruled in some way by RSE? I hope for better things for former students.

RoyGBiv
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by RoyGBiv » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:53 pm

ah, that nasty pendulum swing of compensatory distance. Point taken.

I would consider RSE to be a kooky yet harmless thing if I could, but to back up from the :abstract: point and simply look squarely at results, the negative effects of RSE participation are undeniable. Were it simply a faulty belief system with unclear origins it would be a sad thing, but in a cult like RSE there is a single causative agent and blatantly abusive overtones.

JZ is surely aware of the stress, fear, poverty, broken families, suicides, untreated illnesses, and psychosocial isolation her students are suffering but apparently to her and her cadre the money and the power rush are more important than that. Encouraging doomsday preparations and panic in an already compromised group of students is beyond irresponsible, beyond mere greed, and beyond dedication to a fictional teacher. It has been called spiritual rape aptly, and it has been consciously and systematically applied for the dual purposes of profit and power; this is the only way I can evaluate RSE as an organization based on its results.

RoyGBiv
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by RoyGBiv » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:15 pm

To take this point further, I believe it is not productive to stratify the RSE student population into classes of those who are happy and those who are not. Why? in my 26 years here, I have never seen a person become prosperous, happy, healthy and whole as a direct result of their practice of the "teachings"... Except maybe the MLMers, Ponzi schemers, and those who built businesses catering to the doomsday fearporn teachings. And I consider them to be less than whole or healthy inside :cry:
very sad.
Some students arrived wealthy and managed to hang onto most of their assets and some arrived with good life skills and managed to continue to practice those skills; these types are folks who will talk about how great the school is, because Wrongtha takes credit for their success. And they foolishly suscribe to that.
But there are an equal (perhaps greater?) number who arrived desperately seeking answers at vulnerable points in their lives, and faithfully practicing RSE doctrines resulted in disastrous consequences to varying degrees, and usually on multiple axes of function.
At both ends of the happiness continuum, there is an absence of good result and a plethora of bad ones. RSE is societally damaging and should be shut down.

This my opinion, go ahead and sue me for it! :lol:

Lost in Space
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by Lost in Space » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:21 pm

Hi RoyG
From what you have said you sound rational, not rigid. My RSE friends are all still "in" or perhaps still just keeping up the appearance of not being "out", and it makes me sad to think they are caught up in something that detracts from their quality of life to a large extent, as you suggest.
You would know better than I do about all the effects of membership.
I was speaking more in general terms, which on this site is perhaps innapropriate. I do believe, though, that tossing out what amounts to years of one's life and hours of dedication (perhaps futile dedication, but still...) to such an extent that you reject every single solitary thing you experienced and every person that you knew during that time, and every single idea or teaching would strip you down to a very basic and sorry existence. Especially since some of what is taught is not exclusive to RSE and represents the entire evolution of human potential and consciousness. I will not list here what I see as potentially good things that could have come from the experience - that would be offensive to many. Just saying that I think former students are salvageable and that some of the learning that went on, however flawed it may have been, can be adapted to life outside of RSE and, also, the energy spent on extreme repudiation of it would be better spent rebuilding one's life and focusing on things that have been let slide as a result of membership.

RoyGBiv
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by RoyGBiv » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:24 pm

yes, LiS, that's the pendulum swing I referred to. In another life I would have called it fanatacism, but I avoid RSE jargon when I can.
I agree with the above premise- as do many experts- that completely discounting or vilifying one's own cult experience is to be avoided. It would simply be a self-propagation of the cult's black and white, us and them thinking. Getting used to the humongous grey zone of life is part of the challenge of recovery... so you will find folks here sensitized against statements even remotely supporting RSE as we strive to get back to the middle.

In my time in RSE I made some of the best friends I ever had, had lots of laughs, got laid a lot, and yes, I did learn a lot- (at a buxdeluxe price instead of $12.95 from Amazon :shock:) ... so there was a balance of good in that part of my life.

But like I tried to explain, organizations like RSE should be judged by their primary effects on the students, secondary effects on their families and social contacts, and tertiary effects on the local community. RSEinc fails those tests.
The garden variety master is a wonderful, giving, sensitive, intelligent, noble person. They wouldn't be there if they didn't have high ideals. Does their presence make the organization less corrosive? Maybe in the eyes of an outsider, but those of us with scars from the Tank might feel differently. In fact, it doubles the insult to our souls.

Let's just be sure to draw a distinction between the worthiness/value of the average student vs. the deceitfulness/manipulation for profit/irresponsibility/hypocrisy of the RSE power structure and those who model themselves after them. The fact that it has attracted some really good human beings -who are uncommon in their own right- in no way can be seen as a redeeming aspect of the school itself.

Speaking from the inside of this, I want to share with you that the repudiation aspect is an act of inner rebalancing that must take place, and though it may be hard to watch from the outside or may be easy to misinterpret, it has to take place. It's how we reclaim our own brains. That's my take on it and I hope I didn't insult you.

Lost in Space
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by Lost in Space » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:50 pm

I don't see, Roy, how anything you've said could be insulting to me.
About the repudiation aspect we have no disagreement, just that there are degrees of repudiation and taking it to the ultimate extreme may be a form of self-injury.
I would agree about the garden variety master being a good person - and in my own mind I do draw a distinction between the individual student and the 'school' as a whole.

RoyGBiv
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by RoyGBiv » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:29 pm

Thanks for understanding LiS, I appreciate your concern and sharing.

I, too, have thought at first glance that recent attacks on the school were simply overcompensation, etc. and I have to agree that there is risk for psychic injury from that sort of swing. However, I have since found out the third stage of recovery for many people is activism and self-exposure as a recovered cult member, and an effort to help others who are having difficulty extricating themselves from the trap. When seen through that lens a lot of the public flap around RSE makes good sense and a lot of the postings on this board do too.
When I first started reading this forum, I thought "boy, these posters are like mad dogs, they're so pissed I can hardly believe it!" Now it makes sense to me; those posts really hammered their way through my denial where some more ambiguous or lovey-dovey verbiage might not have.
If I was still in the trap or had never been, the value of that might not be clear, but one thing to remember about RSE is the most basic guiding principle- never question, never doubt, the channel is a saint, etc.- so after repressing those impulses for half of a lifetime, it feels unbelievably good to unleash the big dogs and get into some meaty critical thought. It's very healing. Very empowering and freeing. And it just might get through to the current students reading this, because deep down they all know they are being screwed royally.

Jingz
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by Jingz » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:03 am

Man, loving this discussion, intelligent, insiteful, and therapeutic! Roy, you're well on your way, your writings show that.

In the beginning, when I first started rse, it was all about me, my development, my choices, that's the motivation,it's reinforced by the way scrambles explains away the biggest doubt we all have of whether or not he is real, he can't prove it because then it would all be about him,and we would worship him, blah,blah,blah.

After a short period of time you are made to relinquish yourself, because your inner voice is screaming at you, but you are told that it's emotional, you can't get there if you want comfort and serenity, the path is brutal, you gotta suck it up buttercup, no complaints, deny yourself in a 5 hour field, cold wet and tired, deny yourself in the tank when people are pushing and pulling like savages, deny yourself at the end of the tenth c&e tune and you hear another song starting, deny yourself when rambles repeats the teaching for the fifth time during the same rambling when your inner voice is saying okay I heard you the first 3 f-ing times! Jzr promises the map, if you follow it intentionally, it will take you 7 years and all your dreams come true!

What I ended up learning was that I will never let anyone manipulate me to turn off my inner knowingness again, just like Dorothy in the wizard of oz, everything has been with you all along, that's the reconnection that heals, calms and clears the bullshit. That's what I mean by waking up, trusting your own mind to know what's healthy for you. It was an expensive lesson, but hey I learned it!

Jingz

RoyGBiv
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Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by RoyGBiv » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:23 am

yes. yes. Jingz, you rock!

you have clearly clicked the heels of your ruby slippers together thrice. My hat is off to you! go sistah

Jingz
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:52 am

Re: The Serial Killers Analogy

Unread post by Jingz » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:33 pm

Hey Roy, you rock too! Everyday on this side of the ug is a good one! :D

Jingz

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