This topic posted by forever was moved from our - Cognitive dissonance thread
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Yep. How else can someone defend "the teachings" and that Ramtha is real? Someone, something they love and believe in.
It's like a kid living with alcoholic parent. Parent gets drunk and does awful things. But they don't blame the parent-they blame the alcohol.
Speaking of alcohol, i remember Ramtha talking about " i don't lose that kind of control". In reference to him being able to drink bottles without it affecting him. While students couldn't drink a bottle.
The teachings: We know Ramtha isn't real. We know where the "ancient wisdom" came from. Here's my question and dillema.
So what created the miracles that i automatically attributed to RSE?
- David McCarthy
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Hi forever,So what created the miracles that i automatically attributed to RSE?
I know you posted on a previous thread about this.
Can you post/describe here in detail what you believed those miracles were that you attribute to "Ramtha" and RSE?
I was given a small piece of undeveloped land. It was in 2 sections. One was .75 of an acre and the was 1.5 acre.? It's been awhile and this was 18 years ago. I framed the survey.
I have a real estate background so surveys, land descriptions and sub dividing isn't complex to me. The problem was i couldn't get a straight answer on if it could be divided. I kept hitting a dead end. I even spoke to city attorney and he couldn't answer my question.
I got out the survey and stared at it-daily. Intent and intensely knowing there had to be a way to divide it into building sites. I walked the land. Talked to it. Talked to my God. This went on for months.
One day i called city hall to ask about my property. I had the survey and because we were not communicating well on phone i said i would bring survey and come in. I got there and she showed me my property on the plat map-theirs. At city hall. She looked at me confused. Not understanding why i was asking about dividing it because on their map it already was divided into building sites.
Confused i unrolled my survey and to my astonishment it was also divided on it. I was speechless. Not to mention looked like a nut case. I went home and humped up and down.
The person that gave me the land had gotten it several years earlier from a real estate broker. Not from that area and not wanting to deal with it i contacted the broker that once owned it to help me with it. How to divide? He had been at the property 2 days prior going over the survey with me.
I called him immediately and told him never mind about how to divide the land into lots-because it already was. Except he knew it wasn't. He had owned that land and had the survey. As well as 2 days earlier had been at my house and we had it out going over it. He knew the land wasn't divided.
He came over and i showed him the survey. He was confused. He said he isn't able to understand how he could have overlooked ...? I explained it to him-that he didn't overlook it. It wasn't there. Then i told him about the school. And to go and look at the plat map hanging on their wall.
THAT is a miracle. However, i doesn't end there. I had given a cop a copy of the survey too. He had looked at it-gone over it. Was familiar with it. I called him and told him about it. Ask him to get his copy and look at it. he did. It was changed on his copy too. I didn't stop there. I then contacted the surveyor that had done it years earlier and ask if i could come and get a copy. I wanted to see what his copy read. Sure enough. The kicker is that the person that gave it to also knew it wasn't divided.
There's several witnesses.
I automatically attributed it to RSE. Consciousness and energy or Ramtha.
After that experience i knew anything is possible. That's only one of the things.
The cop that had a copy of the survey knew about RSE. I was giving him information. He was skeptic-at best. From 2500 miles away having learned of remote view i decided to try it-on him. I did. What i saw was him with a motor home that had an awning down and doors open. he was looking for something in the cab and muttering/mumbling.
I called him the next day and told him what i had seen. he said he has a motor home but it doesn't have an awning. Then he it hit that it wasn't his motor home i saw. It was a stolen one he had picked up and was looking for finger prints.
I had a goal. To get myself into a sovereign position so i could have an environment that would allow me the space and privacy to go within and focus on Christ Consciousness.
All the mind boggling ....i have experienced i attributed to the teachings and Ramtha. Only to discover Ramtha isn't real?
I'm not being sarcastic. I'm serious as a heart attack. The only explanation i have is that consciousness and energy...?
I do believe i have a holy spirit. That i am soul and spirit in a physical body. Religion teaches that. And i believe that we are individuals yes. But an aspect of a totality.
I have not been to school in 15? years. Or had contact with students. On my own i have plodded along. NOT doing disciplines to speak of over all these years. I listened to tapes. I wasn't working on Christ Consciousness. I was working on emotional baggage. Healing. It's only been in the last 6 months i really hit the disciplines as well as went outside of the "teachings" that i quickly discovered are wrong. imo. To me the focus has be on love. Genuine, pure love of God. And that is not RSE focus. It was very confusing to see RSE is all about image and more concerned about validating whats taught at RSE. Like the card thing and gambling? Enlightenment?
The disciplines do NOT manifest anything. Spirit does.
I was shocked after all these years and my moral Ramtha becoming a ......!!!! To me the focus has to be on spirit. I was already forming a sovereign connection with my God as source rather than Ramtha. Isn't that how it's supposed to be?
This isn't the forum for this conversation. But I cannot lie to you or anyone else. You couldn't pay me to say anything complimentary about RSE JZ or the rest involved in the fraud. I also cannot deny and simply throw away what i have experienced not because of RSE rather despite it! RSE has been the biggest obstacle of all!!!
As i posted, when i saw the RSE International and JZ as Ramtha saying, "let's toast to it after all it's what made you what you are" ??? BS. Excuse me but the only one that's made me what i am-is me. Because regardless of what's been done to me, for or against me, it's my reaction, comprehension and choices that makes me-me. Good,bad,right,wrong or indifferent. I am responsible for myself, my life, words and actions. I am the one that accounts for my life.
- David McCarthy
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Hi forever,One day i called city hall to ask about my property.
"The problem was i couldn't get a straight answer on if it could be divided."
From experience dealing with City hall by phone is unreliable at best.
Could it be that person who gifted you the property may not have not known a
application for a subdivision had been submitted and was between processes...These things take time...
perhaps that's why it wouldn't turn up with a phone enquiry?
Surely for every sub division submission there is a record of a complicated code ordnances that are gradually ticked off and fees pain by the person who filed the application with the survey plans?
Who was that person? surely the county has to keep records of this information.
What city hall was this?
I understand if you would rather not dig deeper into this..
but I am sure with some investigation there is a rational explanation...
It did happen. And the people that knew, that had previously owned the property and the survey were speechless. as was i. And like i said, i have depended on what RSE calls "manifesting" for my survival. It wasn't until last 6 months i discovered RSE isn't unique. i discovered it by learning how to use computer. Get on you tube.
What works for me obviously isn't known (or practiced) at RSE or them wouldn't be marketing on card focus. It's pathetic.
Worse yet they get caught up in the hype and competition, power and pride. Completely lose sight of why they went there in the first place. But then it's a much different theme these days. It's on the same level as Anthony Robbins.
It's a blessing to me to know the truth of Rmatha/RSE. To have the rug so utterly pulled out from under my "reality" is an opportunity to not only free myself from RSE but an opportunity to grow and know unequivocally what i believe and why.
I had no idea there's so much out there. Everyone channels someone. Barf! I don't want any part of it. It's all for $$$$$. No different than JZ/RSE. They are the grey men.
Christ consciousness? Jesus turned the water into wine and feed the poor. He didn't steal from them.
I think your "miracle" is whatever you want it to be as a private matter.
Corroboration outside of your story will be very difficult, as you have given no compelling reason for anyone else to believe it. It is just your story.
I do not disbelieve in miracles or anomalies in reality as we experience them, but I have yet to find anyone who can create a miracle on demand (and I do not mean magic tricks).
I have a continuing stream of weird coincidences that happen in my life as most people do. Some i can explain later, some I cannot.
Bad cult leaders are those that try to trap and create the power to make miracles.
They have ALL FAILED.
The cult I was in did the same thing only more elaborately that RSE.
CUT/ Summit Lighthouse "students" like Transcendental Meditation students try to use mind and mantra power to create miracles, to change reality. They started this crap long before JZ thought of it and have far far more members than her little cult. Nevertheless, no one in those cults has ever been able to produce on demand a miracle. NONE.
The James Randi Foundation has an outstanding $1 million for anyone who can prove a paranormal power. His test conditions are reasonable, as both his team and the claimant agree on the parameters. No one in the past 20 years has been able to prove anything. If JZ wants a quick buck, she could send her best student there and try. She never has.
We need to stop being so impressed by this miracle manufacturing sh*t...it is not for sale.
Quite frankly it didn't occur to me to use RSE BS on it. My background was real estate and i was going through that process/procedure. Completely unprepared for what occurred. Stunned. And automatically chalked it up to Ramtha/RSE. "Teachings" that i hadn't even applied. I don't do anything i don't believe in. Remarkable things happened when i was in church too. No one has a copyright on God. The disservice to unsuspecting seekers is the the theft of their trust and energy that goes to empower the guru and enslave a persons soul.
I am not familiar with the groups you mentioned-and don't want to be. I just saw you on you tube two days ago. David too on his interview with Mansfield? I am awful with names.
The people that know about the land -it blew em away. Including me. And is not something i share. And hesitated to do so-for obvious reasons. As i read others post "what to believe"...the point is i hoped to make is to not give up on ones God, whatever that is to someone.
- David McCarthy
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- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:09 am
- Location: New Zealand
Good points...extra rum rations for you me matey...
yes absolutely Joe,I think your "miracle" is whatever you want it to be as a private matter.
'but' in the context of the thread question,
perhaps I misunderstood that forever was not presenting the 'miracle' for questioning and respectful scrutiny in order to explore the question posed...
forever...Have I misunderstood your question and intentions?what created the miracles that i automatically attributed to RSE?
it was not to question the miracle, but why you attributed it to RSE?
Surely if a miracle is to be attributed to anything/anyone then one must first establish that something extraordinary and unexplainable has taken place and not accept it at face value...yes, no?
noun: miracle; plural noun: miracles
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.
then the question has a bounded fence to fully explore an understanding and answer.
then I would like to see all the county > public< records explored and posted on EMF.
In NZ the history of all documents affecting title to a property is called a (LINZ) 'Land Information New Zealand'.
And again...I fully respect forever's choice if an investigation was not intended nor welcomed.
Then I would answer (in my opinion) that attributing this event as a miracle to RSE/Ramtha
is a classic example of Confirmation Bias.
What Is a Confirmation Bias?
http://psychology.about.com/od/cognitiv ... n-Bias.htm
Dan Ariely: Are we in control of our own decisions? | Talk Video | TED.com
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_ask ... _decisions
Glossary | Land Information New Zealand (LINZ)
http://www.linz.govt.nz/land/land-regis ... m/glossary
The question wasn't "if" something not only improbable but impossible occurred. That's a given.
I wasn't trying to "manifest" anything. I was in an unhappy situation and angry. I didn't even want the property after discovering that i had been lied to, stabbed in the back and used by the one that gave it to me. It was humiliating. All i wanted was out of that relationship. Give it back and walk away. He refused to take it back. Humiliated i got out the survey and studied it. What to do. It was a painful and embarrassing situation overall. I picked myself up and dug in. Got busy with the land and what to do with it.
When it occurred i thought Ramtha must have done it. It hadn't occurred to me to "focus" and use what's taught at RSE. I talked to what i know as my God, not Ramtha. And all these years i have attributed it and other things to Ramtha, RSE and the "teachings". Only to discover there is no "Ramtha", JZ is a fraud and RSE is a corporation. Through process of elimination i came to the question, ,,
if there's no Ramtha and the "disciplines" are a farce....what did make it happen?
I was confused when i went back to school and no mention was made of it? At the time i didn't understand why Ramtha didn't use it to validate teachings. yeah, now i understand. It's because there is no Ramtha and RSE had nothing to do with it. So........?
I was reluctant to say anything about it. It's tumultuous trying to identify and clarify to myself, what is..and isn't. It isn't something to prove to others but to myself. So i understand it. What did cause it?
In all the confusion people coming out of brainwashing and abuse, control, the comfort and "reality" is that YOU are not copyrighted. You are not property of or an extension of RSE, Ramtha or JZ inc. That's the brainwash. That because customers are called students they they think they are part of something as a group. The truth is the only thing they are a part of is lining pockets of grey men/women.
I am not selling anything and how would "collaboration" answer the question that out of the confusion and TRUST i posted. For you to make it suspect? Allow me to point out that it CAN be "proven" with-through and by public record. Easy. However, THAT is not and was not the question. And for you to say, "it's just your story" ? I have given no "compelling" reason for anyone to believe me?
I am beginning to question your agenda and priority. I am sorry you got burned in a scam. We all did. Isn't it the reason for EMF? Maybe since NO religion can "collaborate" the existence of God a persons experience is "just their story".
Your comment is insulting and hurtful. Not only to me but to others that hope to have a safe place to ask honest questions.
I am not dismissing your story as untrue, and if you have evidence, all the better. But on this thread, it is no more than a story.
In any extraordinary claim (and yours is extraordinary in my view) it is up to the teller to provide the evidence that backs it up. It is not up to the hearer. If it were the other way around, we would all be chasing chimera's to "prove" something that may not be true at all.
I get your point that RSE does not own miracles or psychic powers, but JZ uses a seeker's belief in these things to manipulate them.
I only want you to appreciate why anyone might be skeptical of your story...please do not take it as an insult to you honesty.
Look at it this way: JZ tells the story of meeting Ramtha and has some corroborating evidence from her then partner Burnett as well as a long history of people claiming to have epiphanies of angels, gods, spooks, etc. Her story is believed and has been believed by many thousands because in their "experience" it is true and history bears out similar stories as having validity.
To clarify my point.
It would take a lot of work for you or anyone to provide evidence of a miracle claim. Links to county records, certified affidavits from reliable witnesses, etc. Even at that rate, you would have to be open to an alternative explanation after all the evidence is provided. I hope you see where this is going. I think David was exploring that issue as well, the one of confirmation bias...tat has to be ruled out.
No one here is expecting you to so this. I am certainly not.
fyi, of all the tens of thousands of miracle claims at Lourdes in France, the Roman Church has ratified only a mere 60 or so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_LourdesApproximately 7000 people have sought to have their case confirmed as a miracle, of which 68 have been declared a scientifically inexplicable miracle by both the Bureau and the Catholic Church.
iow, an outside committee, not necessarily Christian, looks over these miracle claims. Without that rigor, they are just stories to others who were not involved directly with the alleged miracle.
To prove a miracle wasn't and isn't the question or answer. Proving an extraordinary event does not identify or prove the source, cause. That was the question.
My point to you is that EMF is a place where and for people to go that are questioning and waking up to mind control and brainwashing. Struggling to connect and disconnect dots. There are buzz words and concepts on this board. One of them being, CT, critical thinking. And to undermine someones experience because it isn't proven or to even put it in that light is to suggest that you, i or anyone else is playing God with another persons experience, life. As we all know that's a dangerous thing, isn't healing and defeats the purpose of EMF.
You have referred to the Roman Catholic Church as an investigative source on proving a miracle? Have they proven the existence of God? Thank you for pointing out your point of reference as it gives me a better understanding of your reaction to my question.
It could, should and would be helpful on EMF to have a dictionary as reference so we can all speak the same language? And the first word to be defined would be God? And the second would be reality. In contrast to an intellectual understanding of something being an opinion. Whereas "reality" is an opinion derived from a personal experience.
There is no science that defines miracles or reality. Only opinion. And that isn't fair to place on others whose experience is different than yours. To undermine, attack, demean someone on those grounds is counter productive and destructive to EMF and those coming here at a critical time, turning point. Clarification is important and misunderstandings or insulting responses can best be clarified with IMO.
A question to you is what is your agenda? Is it to debunk anything that doesn't fit within the realm or your experience?
Question: In mental health how is delusion defined? Would you consider someone that talks to them self or has an invisible friend as delusional? If so how then how do we reconcile faith and prayer?
I do not know of any religion (Christian) that doesn't teach and preach that God, an unproven and invisible source can heal anything. All you have to is believe. Is that pseudoscience?
It's an honest question.