I appreciate that you guys offer a different perspective, for me wisdom is the ability to consider all perspectives even the one's you don't personally agree with.
And I appreciate that you guys invite people to critical thinking.
In fact, I think critical thinking is DARN wise, in all things in life be it religion, media, education, politics..etc... So...to my point.
I have been a student of RSE, and to be honest, it was once the happiest place I ever knew,
I was not a blind follower, I am a college educated person with LOTS of spiritual exploration and study under my belt, so it is natural that I disagreed many times with some things that Ramtha said, but I was always with him on the basic in terms of self reliance, taking responsibility for one's experience, making the most with one's life, and allowing oneself to dream, to be the magic in their own lives. I am down with all that! And to be clear, I have nothing against JZ, I am not here to debate with anyone over that, I just have only had positive experiences with her, and I can only speak from my own experience. I respect other's experiences of her, and I also respect my own.
For me, if she were faking it, believe it or not, I would not care...if the message helped to empower people, I would simply look at it as far out experimental theatre.
However, I had my own personal experiences that proved to me otherwise, that indeed this Ramtha guy is real; what he is, where he comes from, what his true aim is, I cannot say. But, again, I am not here to debate that or to prove I am right or others wrong, or anything like that. If I had not had those experiences, I would think she is faking it too. I simply had my own experience, and believe me it was STRANGE!!!
I am bummed today because of the latest message. I am bummed that Ram thinks he has to take out 3/4+ of the world and send the 'great intimidation' of his ufo cronies (and who are these beings anyway, and what is their real agenda???) for us to have the enlightened future. He always pretty much lost me on this one. I am bummed because I saw progress in everyone, and he seemed to come out and trash it all. Just as we were making a great breakthrough... it was like our hard work meant nothing. People were beginning to actually see cards, not symbols, not marked cards, actually see, which YES is very difficult, and takes a lot of time to do, unless you have a natural gift. Which of course was the big thing we're all waiting for, because once that is happening, then we can actually start manifesting the more exotic abilities. And then all of a sudden it's time to just trash the planet now. Why did you do it RAm?? Why?? It's all I wanna know?? why did you trash up a good thing?? Believe me, I totally get it that JZ would want to be done, hell, the longest job I ever held was for 10 years, and I was cryin to get outta there. I can't even IMAGINE 30+ years of all this. Even if the money is good, after a while there are only so many shoes you can buy that satisfy. So I can totally get it about the "she is dying" thing, or that she is trying to find a way out.
>>>But I am just dissappointed, that's all. I have a friend who is a puny monkey human, who is out giving amazing light to her community by the simplest of ways...making people laugh, caring about them, supporting them in their dream. Now if this little monkey human who has very little money and NO fame can cause that much healing and love and change, what can the RAm do??? wow... but instead we're going to send the planet to hell. so sad, man..... it's so sad. (btw, the monkey thing is what Ram always called us humans, and that attitude I disagreed with) I would be at an event, having spent my last dime and then borrowed some just to be there, and he had to go on and on about all the people who WEREN'T there....well Ram, what about me?? I AM here, and for the days and evenings and I have put my life into this.... what about us who ARE here ready to do the work. I guess I am not important. WHY am I not important?? F**k you.
So yeah... IT IS WHAT IT IS. The cool thing is, I am sooooo done with spiritual teachers. sooooooooooo done. Ramtha was not my first. But I think he is my last. I have stopped looking outside myself for help, for answers, for relief. Sorry guys, the answer is YES, I had a freaky childhood and was so shell shocked into adulthood, I was desperate for answers and desperate to find some sense of peace and security, so I searched deep and wide for help in all kinds of things.... books, seminars, teachers, and a few groups. And now I am done with it. So if Ramtha was my pathway to that, then I owe him great thanks. Your mind is the most precious thing you have, the most precious thing we have. We can give our body, even sell it, but when we give our mind to someone, it is the ultimate trust and the ultimate danger. PEACE. -whatatrip
Welcome friend. I appreciate your post and like you, was a student at RSE, myself for many years current/blue college/dedicated. I at one time gave complete control and responsibility for anything that happened in my life or the world to Ramtha/JZ. I prayed to R/JZ, asked for his/her help, begged for protection and wisdom, understanding and peace. After many years of this, I came to the understanding that RSE had become my church. I had become a disciple rather than become a "God" as R/JZ contradictorily portended me to be. For years my friends and family outside of there tried to persuade me to see it as they did, they levied every reasonable and proven fact about RSE they could find or knew about to open my eyes to what I was involved in. None of it ever did anything but push my friends and family from me, because I was convinced by JZ's word, that she was who she claimed to be, and I wanted it so bad to be true, that I was willing to overlook any inconsistency or discrepancy in the "teachings". It was not until I became willing to honestly look at these discrepancies and inconsistencies in a true light of my own choosing. When I became a member of EMF and began reading other ex rse members stories, I was blinded by the truths I had for so long ignored. I was overcome by the similarities between my own experiences and those of the members here. Not only did I realize that I had been lying to myself and holding on to blissful ignorance, I understood that I had been lied to and deceived in the most malicious way. I saw through the layers of blatant contradiction and deceit that is ever present at RSE, stemming from JZ Knight, and her leadership of this den of iniquity. I opened my eyes to the harsh reality and blatant falsehoods that I had for so long ignored or justified. JZ Knight uses peoples natural desire to become greater, to insinuate herself in your life like a parasite. Once she has attached herself to you, she convinces you that its good for you, and without her leaching off of you, impending doom is your only recourse. She also convinces you, that through her, you can obtain the unobtainable: eternal life, invisibility, bio location, all of the things that are physically and scientifically impossible. She convinces you that through paying her large amounts of money, and spending your life performing ridiculous routines and dogmatic rhetoric, it will all be yours, and without her, you are less than what you really are. This is the epitome of MIND CONTROL, MANIPULATION, and SKULDUGGERY, and she is a master.
I wish you the best in your life's journey, and please know that there is great healing here, and vast experience in exactly who JZ Knight really is.
I considered myself to be an intelligent and educated degree holder as well. I found the 'knowledge' that JZ spouted forth to be intriguing and they appealed to my childish fantasy of possessing some sort of magical ability. I experience much more magic in my life on a day to day basis now that I don't have to force myself to focus on anything, do any disciplines etc. Reality is great. Yes there are hard times occasionally (they were worse when I was in the school as I had less ability to deal with them mentally and financially!) Like you, I found that there were a few things that I disagreed with, and it seemed that I was always able to pick up on inconsistencies that my fellow students were not. At the time I was not strong enough to say such things to them. I think if I was back in front of JZ now I would have a really hard time not calling her out on those disagreement points.I was not a blind follower, I am a college educated person with LOTS of spiritual exploration and study under my belt, so it is natural that I disagreed many times with some things that Ramtha said, but I was always with him on the basic in terms of self reliance, taking responsibility for one's experience, making the most with one's life, and allowing oneself to dream, to be the magic in their own lives
I wondered what you meant about 'Ram' taking out the world. Is JZ claiming that Ram is responsible for the natural disasters in the world lately? And is the message being given to the students that 'Ram' is going to be the perpetrator of the earthquakes and tsunami that she is predicting?
I also wonder if you are thinking that the catastrophic future that JZ has prophesized is actually going to happen? In answer to your question regarding 'what can Ram do?' after telling us about your 'puny monkey friend' I can only answer in all honesty from my own experience of JZ, Ram and RSE and say 'not much other than separate people from their money very effectively!'I am bummed today because of the latest message. I am bummed that Ram thinks he has to take out 3/4+ of the world and send the 'great intimidation' of his ufo cronies (and who are these beings anyway, and what is their real agenda???) for us to have the enlightened future.
I hope that you enjoy and continue to expand your new space in life and enjoy living each moment with increasing freedom from fear of the end of the world. It's great to have you here.
thanks for this.
The Ram is real???...an enlightened being that s/he states and pretends to be? You gotta be kidding! If Ram is enlightenment, we have absolutely nothing to look forward to and strive for. A drunken baffoon, cussing..who is physically, emotionally and verbally abusive....anything but enlightenment and and a demented, inferior demonstration of "love". Huge, huge red flag!
"Ram" very well could be JZ's alter Ego as far as personalities go, but enlightened,wise being...never.
If one could consider the possibility that JZ is a scam, "Ramtha"'s behavior makes sense.
This is a classic classic classic and repeated ramtha technique - it's called abuse. (in the very beginning days of this message board there was a post "Cycle of Abuse" that describes this overly used technique.
Other people have had experiences which have led them to believe that Ramtha is real. Too often they have been 'booed' off the message board - unfortunately, and a great loss for everyone. So to posters who have not had such experiences - let's give a break to those who have - can we be un-ramster like and in fact 'allow other people their truth?"
Learning can happen in the worst of environments and situations, even concentration camps and abusive relationships - that doesn't mean that such are the optimal choice for growth, nor validate their perpetrators or actions.
Peace and Blessings to you WhataRide - welcome out of hell.
Thanks again, -whatatrip
Yes it has been a Trip for most of us also.
What pleased me in your post is that you have seen what JZ is all about, I never did like JZ even when I was in the school, so that was not hard to get on her case and if you look at my posts you will see that I have not much respect for her,but when came down to Ramtha it was not so easy it took me some time to process it all and be able to see that it was one and the same.but it took time, reseach inside of me and out side.Sometime some of us (Including I ) jump to fast in with out thinking much when one student come one here, our eager to show them what we know many time is done because we want to share what we have discover and know, and not always remembering that we were in that same situation.
I Thank you to have shared your inner thought with us. Everytime someone share he/her experience with us on this site is very valuable for the many.
Personal experience is not truth, which is the opposite of what the school teaches.
To the EMF Board
A neutral position, moderation and caution regarding RSE
Over the last few days, I have read many of your well-meaning, insightful, and thought provoking posts. Thank you. At the same time, it saddens me to hear about some of your negative experiences. I appreciate your willingness to come forward. Your honesty and ‘red flags’ have given me a reason to take a second look and to be cautious.
I am not too sure if I have much to offer to your on-going discussions and so, will keep my first posting remarks brief. I am not here to defend or criticize---just provide another perspective. I believe that your website welcomes viewpoints from all sides: Good / Neutral / Bad / Indifferent. And I like your openness.
RSE: Yes, I have been aware of the school and the program for 20 years. I do have friends that are current students and it was only after retirement did I take an interest in the program and then, I started to read and study the RSE. Mostly, I was curious.
Imho: What I noticed was that many of the RSE teachings have been assembled thru-out the ages from various sources/authors: ancient beliefs, the Bible, myths, customs and religious practices etc.. The History, Discovery Channels and Talk Radio also touch on many of these topics. It just happens that JZ found a way to market herself and her product. Good for her as she has become a ‘business success’ $$$. I do admire that concept.
Like most people, I want to belong, join and have a common interest---to ‘Believe’ in something—a common goal!! The Teacher in me wanted to become a Student again. The quest to learn, try something different, go outside my comfort zone… And so, a year ago, I attended my first event, an ‘Open House Week-end’. For me, it was a nice experience and I enjoyed my time at the Ranch, Saturday and Sunday.
I have now attended 3 events with JZ/Ramtha speaking at the most recent one. Who’s Who? JZ or Ramtha?? I really do not know and do not care. The challenge for me was to keep an open-mind, hear the message and to put aside all the negative comments that I have heard over the years. I was there for me, my personal growth/development and to apply “some” of the teachings to my daily life. Yes, I did pick and choose.
a neutral position…moderation…caution…
Just because I can respectfully listen to another’s viewpoint that does not mean that I ‘buy-in’ to everything that is said. As time has gone by since my first event, I found some of the concepts to be of interest and helpful while other topics were not with-in my personal belief system. I tire of the ‘Doom and Gloom’, question the predictions and feel dismayed when I see students dependent upon JZ/Ramtha. However, I did learn and that was my goal. Moderation!!
No, I do not do daily disciplines. No, I do not stay the nights. Camping was fun when I was 10 years old---not now. Sleeping in a cold tent in the snow and mud--Forget it—that’s not for me. No, I did not find my card in the ‘field’. No, I have not attended a ‘wine ceremony’---sounds like fun 30 years ago—not now…
Even though, my overall experience has been worthwhile, I may or may not attend again. It saddens me to learn about some of your RSE experiences. You have given me reasons to take a second look and to be cautious. Thank You.
Good thoughts and prayers to those that struggle to find peace in their daily life.
ps RSE produces lots of drama—what a great ‘Reality TV’ Program this school could become. $$$$
Also, yesterday, after reading a recent post on your website, I ‘Googled’ the name of a current RSE instructor. The search provided a curious finding. Fact or Fiction?? Don’t know… Another ‘red flag’?? Don’t know…
I have such a hard time swallowing your evaluation of JZ Knight's "business success" in that I am not sure you understand the far reaching implications of 'herself and her product'. I do appreciate your post, and this is a site where all people's opinions and perspectives are respected, yet after the devastation and fallout from 14 years of JZ Knight, the last thing I could ever admire is RSE and JZ Knight. JZ has single handedly destroyed countless families with her 'doctrine' and created financial collapse to thousands of her 'followers' by convincing them, while pretending to be 'Ramtha', to invest in scams and schemes, getting rich along the way from the trust and belief she has conned people into. She encourages her followers to leave their families, children and spouses especially, with the cruel idea of 'they are holding you back from everlasting life and happiness'. For 30 years, JZ Knight has used her gift of a photographic memory, and great acting skills, to perpetrate heinous acts of deceit upon any person willing to set aside their critical thinking long enough to be sucked into the RSE abyss. Everyone has the freedom of choice in this world, and each of us is imbued with free will, yet when you convince people, who are searching for happiness and the answers to life's most difficult of questions, that you have those answers, and that you can provide people that happiness they long for when they do everything you tell them to, and then you take advantage of that trust, in my book, you are the worst kind of person there is, and that is exactly who JZ Knight is. She preys on peoples most primal desire, happiness, and once she has obtained control of their life, she uses them in a sick and twisted puppet show of sorts, where only the lucky few are capable of cutting the strings and wrenching control of their life back from her.
I am glad you had a good time there, and also happy to hear that you are at least questioning what JZ is saying. I was in that same position years ago, and made the decision to believe that JZ Knight was who she said she was, and that I could have those things she claimed to offer, then followed her lies to my own regret. I hope you don't make the same mistake I did.
Thanks so much for your considerate remarks. I would like to think there's space here for allpoints of view. I think we're all mature enough to be respectful. I am not an RSE participant, but some of my friends are. One has really jumped in all the way and takes TDTC literally and is busy constructing a UG, sweating to get it habitable by June 15. Other friends I have are a little less immersed in the RSE teachings, going to a class every year or two.
My take on RSE is that one can see in the teachings an amalgam of christianity, bhuddism, 1960s beat poets, Vera Stanley Alder and a lot of whatever has recently been on History Channel and AM Coast to Coast in the teachings.
RSE is like getting a house. You can build your own piece by piece, or you can get your house completed and ready to go from a builder for a price premium. Some people like the do-it-yourself construction because they can build exactly what they want: philosophy or a house. RSE is the pre-built house, and if the message squares with you, you're set, but you do have take it or leave it. I believe virtually anything I've read in the JZK books to which I have access could also be found at my city library with the specific exception of the story of Ramtha in Lemuria. For me the high cost of RSE is a stopper. I'm willing to build my philosopy and beliefs through my personal learning.
I think if you take a beginner course and stop right there, that might be the best thing you can do. The message of self worth is laregely positive, and not too much of the TDTC gloomy message is brought out in the beginner session. The TDTC seems to be a cultish manipulation in primary and above that is used to keep stuents coming back, lest they miss some critical disaster instructions.
I'm not sure Ramtha is real. To me, on the tapes, Ramtha just sounds like JZ. Sometimes JZ as Ramtha lowers her voice and has british-like accent. Sometimes Ramtha slides back to sounding just like JZ, though she started out with the accent at the beginning of a recording. As a few people pointed out, JZ and Ramtha mispronounce some of the same words. For instance, they both say, "Labernith," instead of Labyrinth. Supposedly JZ dies to her body and Ramtha takes over her cerebellum (I think) while JZ is out of the body. You'd think Ramtha would have control on the body and it would say Ramtha's words and not use the pronunciations stored in JZ's cortex. I'm inclined to suspect that JZ is emoting Ramtha rather than channeling Ramtha some of or maybe even all of the time.
Some people that have been following JZ / Ramtha since the 1980s have proposed that JZ really did channel Ramtha in the early days. Then Ramtha left when JZ's bad behavior and drinking got in the way of the teachings. Some time around the late 1980s the teachings grew darker. Ramtha may have left, or JZ may have even become possessed by a lower spirit that speaks in the name of Ramtha.
One great thing is in this corner of the planet here in the US, you are still mostly free to think whatever you wish. It is up to you to decide if the 35,000 year old guy in Yelm, who looks like JZ, has the message you like. If so, you can pay the fee and comply with the nondisclosure agreement RSE requires. Personally I have a problem with that. I have a platonist viewpont that there are some things that are ultimate truth, and they will be truth whether it is I or Ramtha that teach them to you.
As for me, I still gotta like JZ's business savvy—no different than most US , International Corporations—Bankers---Oil----all about the $$$$. Good bye to ethics and a solid moral code to live by.
And you are right. ..It truly is sad to learn of the devastation and hardships that you describe. Life is a learning process and I will heed your warnings.
Thank you for your respectful replies.
Some of the teaching doesn't square well for me because it seems like (to me) a noephyte's misunderstanding or a misapplication of what I learned studying Modern Physics in college. That a skewed representation of quantum mechanics is used as a basis for parts of the RSE curriculum makes me cast some doubt at the validity of some upper layers of understanding RSE steaches.
I believe one may create her or his day. What I don't believe is that what one may create is completely arbitrary and limited only by one's imagination. For better or worse, we are mapped into our four dimensional space-time and there are only certain objective realities possible. One of the biggest problems is that time is only known to flow from past to future and the one immutable constant that caps everything is the speed of light in free space. These facts ultimately limit outcomes to discrete possibilities that move forward in time. Despite the likely existence of dark matter and dimensions beyond just four, nobody has yet offered a lucid proof that we have a way of accessing them. That isn't to say they don't exist, it is just to say that as yet there is not compelling (to me) mathematical proof we can access them. If so, what will we find there? The idea is exciting. I don't think anyone has yet to explain why time flows only to the future either.
So, what RSE teaches may be possible, but they don't seem to be offering a basis for it that squares with the way the mainstream science presents quantum mechanics. RSE cherry-picks phases that sound good and calls them quantum physics, then justifies nonsensical RSE interpretations by saying mainstream scientists are misguided or lieing. I find it tough to believe that candle focus, C&E, or the other disciplines are able to do what can't be done any other way. I don't see anything, "quantum," about the disciplienes - they're all real world Newtonian physical activities.
All of this is very expensive to the students. $1500 or more each year. I think students would be better off taking some philosophy and and physics courses, possibly even on a non-credit basis from a local university. At a university, you'll probably get more than just one point of view.
The business success of RSE is unquestionable. Just keep in mind that Entertainment Tonight and American Idol are also quite financially successful franchises. That doesn't mean either of the latter are particularly enlightened.
No offense Ockham, but for many people, RSE is more like getting an incurable disease than getting a house. I do understand your analogy though, and can see how some people could see it that way too.
Also, I don't ever recall a message of 'self worth' being a positive one. As a matter of fact, on many occasions I sat in the front row and listened to JZ berate, curse and criticize her entire "student body" for hours on end. How lazy we were. How stupid we were. How we weren't worth her even sharing an audience with. How we were all "going to fucking die, and we deserved it because we were a bunch of stupid fucking lazy assholes who didn't give a shit about anything but jerking off and beating our spouses".
JZ Knights whole deal is to break people down so they will do anything and everything she tells them to. Convince enough people that they are worthless, that they are nothing without her, that unless they do everything she tells them to, they are doomed. Then, they are easily led down any path you want to lead them, and as of late, that path is a very dark and dangerous one in my opinion.
Thanks dearly for the correction. That is proof that one should apply skepticism to second hand knowledge. What I said was second hand. I had been told the beginner's was more about the disciplines and being god like and not as much TDTC.
I can see at that from a business perspective that it makes sense to introduce TDTC early to have a hook to make sure students return for additional events so they can get fresh updaates on any looming disasters on a regular basis.
Your lucid remarks and correction is much appreciated.