Thank You for responding. It has been a point of confusion and major frustration for me.
No criticism here ( and i mean it) but what i am hearing is that it isn't real, is luck or otherwise dismissed entirely without answering a question because we all know RSE is crap.
It is important (imo) to be able to explain something to others who are questioning "reality" because they have had their head messed with. We cannot call RSE a cult and pseudoscience without having an explanation. That helps them regain their sense of self and trust in them self. Confidence.
It's sad to hear what Joe said about those who have looked at him to create reality for them. I have compassion for you Joe. What they are saying to you is-"am i safe". Is there a boogie man in the bushes. When someone has been traumatized through betrayal they are lost-for awhile. They are unable to trust their own judgement and simultaneously afraid to trust others.
The priority is to restore their self confidence so they can answer their own question.
For a few weeks i really went through it. It was rough. To comprehend the magnitude of deception? Wow.
Have to organize my thoughts to articulate. More on this later.
IMO RSE has taken what is indeed called "ancient wisdom" or hidden knowledge as it has been referred to in the occult. Created disciplines (techniques) to apply and to validate their teachings. That in reality are not theirs.
Occult information-knowledge being taught by non spiritual image oriented human beings is not going to be "realized" it's going to create confusion, discouragement, anger, frustration and failure. Not necessarily because the information is erroneous. It's the application. The intent, priority, agenda does not harmonize with what is endeavoring to be achieved. And cannot be achieved without a solid foundation.
The first aspect being integrity.
Consciousness and energy and "no such thing as a victim" being interpreted by a selfish human being and used to shun all responsibility for behavior has created the sociopath and psychopathic behavior and thinking at in Ramthaland. And is an abuse of information. Wrong interpretation and application. It's twisted.
Moreover RSE has cherry picked? from here and there from occult knowledge ( here ya go Joe ) much like if someone got in a bible and used various scriptures put together to create a new religion. Yes , the scriptures do say that but in a different context.
I am trying to get the cards.
Cards. The disciplines do not create finding of card on fence. Bear with me here please as i attempt to strighten out the association between C&E, focus being what takes student to their card. It isn't.
If you get in Third Eye examine and evaluate the idea of thought having vibration and frequency?
It's clear now what i have experienced.
My experience with cards. Didn't start well. I had a hard time being at school. Awful guilt. That i was being selfish. What would my kids think. What about the guy back home. What would he think of such insanity. I was wandering around lost in emotion. I gave up and quit. Removed bf (blindfold) and walked off field. Went to pit, brooding. Thinking i should just get my things and go. Leave.
At pit Robert came. BIG guy. Scary. Ask me what i was doing and i told him i couldn't do it. He said, 'yes you can don't you quit on your God". Ever seen him? I was sitting down and he was standing. He told me get back to field. I wasn't going to argue.
I got just inside the fence-put my bf down.....and cried. Because of the inner struggle between wanting to cultivate myself vs do what my family and friends would accept. Stood there and cried. In rebellion i embraced doing something for myself. At least try. Made a conscious choice to go beyond the shire. Immediately i had first card. Went to center field for it to be taped on. Seemingly minutes 2nd card. That fast. Nothing to it.
Here's the hook. From that point on in my mind it validated the teachings-pseudoscience. That people told me doesn't work. My family is science. Look at me and laugh. But here's me holding cards? Confusing. There was only one card i didn't find-$. Really.
Is it luck? In my experience no. Is my miracle?
Reading Third eye-i understand it. Wasn't the discipline. I wasn't doing the discipline when other things happened. Or even thinking how to make it happen using teachings or disciplines. Teachings have nothing to do with it.
When i went back to school months later i took the survey with me-to show Robert and thank him for pushing me. Glad i didn't quit. It didn't occur to me until it came up on EMF how peculiar it is that Ramtha didn't use it to show students teachings work.
I understand it now .
1. You imply that whenever someone truly seems to use paranormal powers of mind, JZ may not want to acknowledge it. You were a newbe, not a trusted choir member yet. No psychopath will trust a person unless they know they can manipulate them first.
2. The premise of RSE is that students will cultivate magical powers and create reality. Where is the beef after a quarter of a century of RSE? Outside the school, all they have are casinos and no way to verify the claims. A person with a 50 IQ and no sense of Ramtha can win in a casino.
The true test of cards would be outside the RSE theater.
How do you think you would do blindfolded if I (not you) were to pin 5 of your cards along a fence among say 500 others in a half hour?
If the mind really worked that way at all, it should take you only 5 minutes or less. And you should be consistent.
One theory I have thought of is that "miracles" are truly not a function of the human will. God or Benevolent Reality chooses when to perform or act. With that in mind, it is better not to even think of producing a miracle.
On the cards? Good question. Have not done it in forever-no pun
At the time i was so excited it didn't occur to me. Had no idea what RSE is. Well, can't really say that. Because first time JZ opened her mouth as "self"-i knew something was amiss. Saying something got me in trouble with other student.
I am NOT to be trusted if what someone is doing isn't honest. I am not a saint. Have no desire to be. But nothing makes me madder than intentional deceit. Despise it. Top priority in my life is foundation.
Right now i am analyzing foundation-mine.
The point is an ascended master would have already known about it.
Paranormal? There is no one size fits fit all. Meaning what's normal to one may not be normal to another. That's why i am cautious about others life-messing with their reality. Because if i am wrong....i am responsible for it.
Listen Joe-i would turn on my own mother if thought or knew she was scamming or manipulating someone.
The gambling at RSE. It isn't worth commenting on. It's sad. If that's the best they can do?
I really don't care about the specifics of the pedagogy at RSE. The proof is in the results. I may be convinced if RSE is able to produce a student that is able to perform something practical, and otherwise unexplained, repeatedly, in a controlled setting. The only evidence we have been given from the public relations machine of RSE is that some students play the lottery and win sometimes. That is done without any citing of statistics that show it is any better than random chance. If you go back to the newspaper advertisement that RSE ran about the winning students and look at the number of people and the amount of winnings (earnings?) is within the bounds of chance, assuming the lottery pays out about half of the revenue it takes in.
I agree with Joe that Ms. Knight and company are skillful manipulators and will not acknowledge attendees until sure an attendee is malleable enough to be manipulated at will and is not going to unexpectedly and embarrassingly question Ramtha publicly in front of an audience in way for which Judy does not have a prepared pat answer ready.
As far as, "Ramtha," picking somebody out in the audience: I am no expert, but I have some done public speaking, and it is possible to pick out people that are just itching to be acknowledged. I can't give you a specific word to describe it, but it can be read on their faces. Sociopaths are expert readers of body language, and I have no doubt Judy Knight can easily read the emotions of people sitting in the horse arena and then give acknowledgement as desired.
On miracles: by definition, it isn't a miracle if it is explainable via natural or scientific laws, which would include RSE teachings. The dictionary definition goes on to say it thus assumed to be through divine agency, but to me it could also be randomness. (Random does not necessarily imply Godless.) Given vastness of the universe, anything describable will eventually happen. There is an interesting branch of quantum physics called quantum information theory that tries resolve issues related to causality and the observer problem is the standard models. QIT apparently leads to the concept that the universe may actually be a holographic projection from an undiscovered information source. As far as I know, what the information source is has not been satisfactorily addressed. Still, that is an interesting concept, and it puts a check mark in the column of predestination, that everything that did or will happen is in some sort of Edgar Cayce like Akashic record. I'm not sure I buy into QIT, but it is interesting. That also suggests that we may be able to develop understanding of the universe, but we may not be able to change it. We are going to get whatever has already been decided we will be dealt. I am not sure that I personally agree with predestination, as that is a rather intellectually unsatisfying concept.
In a class of 500 we each made two cards. Placed in individual baggies. Not allowed to look at others cards. Goofs us focus if you do. Then on way to field students (suckers) exchange cards many times with other students. Each student hands two cards on fence. Blank side out.
I know If I were going to test a group of psychics doing the same thing, I would definitely not allow them to handle the cards among themselves……JMHO
I do not see any way to skew results. You can see in you tube.
Some people go to RSE to get something they don't have. Others go to receive an explanation to understand what they have already experienced.
For some people RSE was an opportunity to understand something within them self.
I could not generalize what all the people go to RSE for, except perhaps since it could be called an outgrowth of the human potential movement people would go there with the intention to better themselves.
According to your statement above, they all would be going to get something they don't have, only some would define that to be an explanation for what they have experienced. For the life of me, I find it hard to understand going to a school to explain to me my past experiences. Why would I want them to explain to me my first love? My first day at school? My first experience of snow? etc…
As far as Grandma goes, I am confident she would have found her way with no more difficulty then the rest of us. As far as going through life as different, besides being a woman in a mans world, she was 6'1"!! In fact, one of the great lessons she taught me was to not worry about being accepted or having ideas which differed from others, just worry about the consequences of ones own actions.
Common or "normal" events such as first kiss, first day of school need no explanation. Not to me. I went there thinking to have freedom to explore and understand what isn't "normal" in our society. And in a round about way i now understand it.
I have had a very diversified life. Hands in the dirt growing food. Dairy farm and milking cows. Head in the clouds flying a plane and everything between. Some people are driven to know more while others are content with where they are. Both are okay. It isn't good or bad, right or wrong either way. It's just choice.
People have a tendency to label and organize anything and everything. It splinters and fragments rather than unites. IMO
I respectfully disagree with you on the difficulty for your grandmother. I know of a five year old prodigy that's bored with the "babies" his age. People have to have room to grow and at that own pace. Stifle it and it's hell for the one trying to find value in something they are bored with. Put that same person in an environment where everyone else is perfectly happy/content and it causes problems for the one that's different.
One more time.journeythroughramthaland wrote:I meant that all the participants have the belief that they have, are learning to have, and are attempting to demonstrate that they have obtained some sort of paranormal ability and that they think that they are under conditions that are valid, so that the results they get cannot be questioned.
The theme of RSE used be;
That we are a spirit...
in a physical body.
Experiencing and expressing life on a physical level.
That we are capable of more than we are aware of.
Field work is to prove to the student they have undeveloped capabilities. That if developed they can create life as they want it to be.
"Psychic" is something entirely different. Psychic is seeing the future. Knowing something before it happens.
I am not sure what is meant by "valid conditions"? No one hangs their own card. No one has any idea where their card is-or even the fence for that matter. The fence has three rails. Cards are placed on all three.
The idea isn't just to find a card. It's to become aware of what's in their head.
Why am i here
I can't do this.
I am stupid.
Should be home
What will people think
People have to wade through what's in their head first in order to even think about their card. And wander around field caught up in their emotion and thoughts. It isn't a matter of "demonstrating"? Rather that by finding their card it's proof to them that they have capabilities they are unaware of.
Focus isn't easy.
The DECEPTION is people then associate that experience with RSE and teachings. Not realizing it's the situation they are in that allows them the experience. RSE isn't giving them anything. Rse just puts em a situation to experience what's within already.
Example: Someone sees a child has wandered into the street and there's a car coming. Somehow they manage to close the distance and pull the kid out of the way. A distance they would not normally be able to close in that amount of time. Afterwards all they remember is the realization/danger of kid about to be hit and then having the kid in their arms. Nothing in between. Focus.
Finding a card convinces student RSE is legit. Not realizing the deck is stacked against them. The student has just been indoctrinated with;
They have just been indoctrinated to believe that "focus" created it. WOW so now they think all they have to do is FOCUS. Then the doing the disciplines becomes their life. Focusing on something they want to "manifest". Because they have deceived into thinking they "manifested" their card.consciousness & energy creates the nature of reality.
Bo focused on getting his electricity on? Same thing.
It isn't just focus. Heck of a lot more than than involved.
Please note what i just said-described. It goes from spirit/God to physical. Rather than the LOVE of God. LOVE being the key word. Everything becomes about being able to focus. Emotion is bad. human. Lower rung on ladder.
The sad part is there's a heck of a lot more involved in growing, "evolving". It isn't about finding a card or getting to the void. What i know as the teachings? It's about CHANGE. Getting honest. Looking at self. Taking responsibility. Seeing where you have been wrong-hurt someone. Go to em and address it. It's about addressing issues. Baggage. Letting go of attitudes. It's about going to someone and telling them you lied-about them or something else. Cleaning up the haunts. Integrity. Keeping your word.
It is my opinion no one evolves/grows without first cleaning house. Cleaning out the closet.
I do not know RSE. I am not in any way affiliated and do not want to be. It's an experience long ago. It's the past. I have to move on to happier things.
I get what forever is saying. We cannot dismiss the results without an objective observer(s) present during field work over time. But I think overall, chance is the rule and certainly not the exception by all accounts I've heard over the years.
But people do this "blind" search and find things all over the world and come up with astounding results...sometimes.
A minor example is everyone reading this has lost or misplaced their keys, told someone, then that person looks in an odd place the next day and finds them. Maybe the dog moved them, or you just had a "senior moment."
More so, blind people can have something called blindsight
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/healt ... .html?_r=0
The card game at RSE is different.The study, which included extensive brain imaging, is the most dramatic demonstration to date of so-called blindsight, the native ability to sense things using the brain’s primitive, subcortical — and entirely subconscious — visual system.
What I do not accept is the purpose of the blindfolds and the C&E hands and blowing wind.
There are many ways to disguise the cards and place them at random behind same shields or envelopes, then let sighted folks just wander randomly with no C&E to try to find their cards first. This would obviously go much quicker, but it amounts to the very same thing that field work with blindfolds is.
Adding C&E and blindfolds is no different than making everyone walk backwards or ride a giraffe while looking around. It is just silliness.
The blindfolds slow things down a lot, so my guess is that this is about filling in time so you get your money's worth, and making it more like a fun house or amusement park, making it seem more mysterious, making seem like you are overcoming a lot more.
Do you what's taught at RSE? In depth?
It's about "resolving the image". I have met people from every walk of life. Doctor, lawyer and Indian Chief-literally. People know more about what's happening on survivor show than they do about them self. Precisely why people are going to a therapist. To understand them self. It's work.
Emotion surfaces. Things people had no idea was there.
RSE put a package together. Theme is-know yourself. Things change in a blindfold. You're alone. On a field with 500-1000 people all in blindfolds. Lost in their own thoughts. Running into others-or not. Some wander for hours i heard. Some don't ever find their cards. In that wandering around what's in their head is in their face. Remove the blindfold and it goes away.
If there was a way for RSE to rig it i would tell you but there isn't. There's absolutely NO way to rig it. Not with new students.
There's an entire teaching/class given prior to field.
Idea is that frontal lobe is throne of God. Mind. What sits in frontal lobe through focus becomes reality. Focus on the symbol/picture on card and you will go to it-blindfolded. It's focus that's difficult. Ever try to still your thoughts?
Reason for hand position. There's 7 "seals" taught by RSE. Each one representing a different consciousness. Journey said it well; a ladder. Each rung has different frequency/consciousness. The ladder is the light spectrum.
The 4th seal is center chest-bridge consciousness. Energy flowing out of hands positioned there.
The breath is used prior to field to "raise energy". In my beginners we did that (on ground) then told to get up, put our arms straight out and spin. First one way then reverse. Like you see kids do? Then i was told-now focus. No one has any idea where they, the fence or their card is.
There's no way for RSE to rig it Joe. That's what i am saying. Yes, JZ is a fraud. In my own experience it wasn't luck or random.
You know about the forest? Doing the tank? If you say that the same principle/discipline; focus that's used on field can be dismissed as luck or random. And people have said, EMF that getting to the void is tampered with? I can believe that but it does NOT explain getting through a 40 acre forest-no path. In a blindfold to even get to the tank much less find the door and even get inside. The door can be knee level. Or a slot. And hands are not used. Wouldn't help anyway.
Imagine you're a new student. Never seen C&E, don't know a soul.
We didn't question it because students it had already done by other students. PROVEN. So we believed it's possible and did it.
I can't even relate to Davids experience. The carnage? The trauma from that alone would have been enough for me.
Finding the card is the result.
The priority is focus.
The obstacle is the steady flow of chatter in the brain.
Did i remember to shut and lock door. Turn coffee pot off. Are the kids alright. Homesick. I'm sorry i was such a ......my back hurts. My feet are tired. I wish i had eaten breakfast. This is nuts. How long we gonna be out here. Is it time to quit yet. Have to pee. Man what i would give to sit down. Naw, i am leaving. How am i gonna explain this to anyone. Hope mom is alright. Have to go to ATM. It's hot out here. I'm cold. Hope he calls. Did i bring my coat. How many jeans did i bring. Don't forget to call the library.
To give you an idea. Focus? With that steady stream of thought?
The "lesson" is for people is to become aware that everything they think about is physical, ordinary. Deals with the physical life. Not spirit. That our entire focus/mind is on our physical life. And that's why there isn't room for anything extraordinary. Where would we put it?
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Interesting thread… Hey JTRL..good to hear from you...
Hi forever, everyone..forever..
Davids group laid the ground work for group i was in. He was part of implementing field, i wasn't. It was already established.
This "ground work" I apparently helped implement...was nothing more than a sociopaths testing ground to learn how far she (Judith) could push the groups into a deeper 'self-sealing system' -Thanks for that Joe ) into a more perverse and destructive submission RSE followers would bend and break to her will.
Oh yes… it also served to fill those 5 Gallon Buckets with cash Judith had stacked in a secret basement.
But I digress…
I suspect that Judiths "RSE ground work" started at Middle School, Perhaps even kindergarten...Heck...that was fun hurting that kid, Heck… those lies really paid off!".. Heck…playing God really really pays well and I can hurt and use people all I want and nobody suspect a thing.
An RSE insider once told me that JZK wanted to clear all the rocks from her paddocks because they were a hazard to her prize horses. That's how she came up with "Rock Work" the field work soon followed...Go find your rock masters.. I remember feeling cheated that all the best rocks were taken by the "ground work" of the more advance groups for no matter how much I search those horse paddocks they were cleared of rocks.
A rock from RSE's sacred ground was highly treasured...I eventually found one in the Nisqually river..
but it was my rock and I would make it sacred....
I suspect Judith came to realize that "field work" was also an excellent tool for of classic sensory deprivation BRAINWASHING) (no breaks, no water, no food...combined with physical exhaustion (10 hours straight) to break down the will of participants. Yes... there would be "unexplainable" experiences. The sensory deprivation exhaustion can induce hallucinations. Judith had already weaved the "unexplainable factor" into the RSE indoctrinations, then for good measure introduced the shills to seal the deal
I had several unexplainable finding my card experiences just like yours forever...but nothing "manifested" from finding those cards.. just blood, sweat and tears.
Heck....I had an unexplainable/wonderful experience walking my dog on the beach today..
Perhaps my dog is God…? OK..no more 'hecks' ..I promise
Back to the topic question…Is it a fantasy that people in a blindfold find their card?
Yes, in my opinion...more than likely it is a fantasy if believed to be a miracle.
However, unexplainable experiences are possible at RSE, but if we are convinced to call it a 'miracle',
then I would qualify it by saying.... it happened despite RSE, not because of RSE.
OK.. wheres me sacred Rock gone?
(EMF) Online Forum • View topic - Rock Work!
I had never thought of field work as miracle because it was explainable by pseudoscience.
Davids group was the core nucleus of school. What my group called "old timers" and advanced students. They were used to establish and implement field discipline, "prove it" . So when next group comes they have it to fall back on. I don't know when tank/forest was implemented.
I understand now the progressive shift in teachings that over the years took the heart out of the teachings. Reduced to gambling rather than the you can do anything i was in.
Joe ask about where Judy got the blindfold idea from. Probably wouldn't have to look far. The idea is to remove the distraction of external environment. Ashram?
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We have touched upon this murky subject elseware on EMF....
Perhaps the' truth' of R$E is hidden within the bizarre… a perfect no-go-zone hidden in plain sight!
I suspect the “unexplainable” experiences at RSE (Such as Remote View Success and Fail Rates) were given over to a US Governmental agency.
This may help explain how JZK has been given a “free license” to operate R$E without Governmental interference.
We are talking about a country with the most powerful men on Earth who were 'born again evangelicals'
who believed in 'the rapture' while in the WhiteHouse...
Cue song ... Onward Christian Soldiers...
The Men Who Stare at Goats - Wikipedia
Rapture - Wikipedia
Remote viewing - Wikipedia
How born-again George became a man on a mission | World news | The Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/o ... georgebush
Pentecostal church believed in "rapture". Didn't think of it until now-quantum?
I am without the answers. Best i can do is have an open mind.
You have broached an unsettling ....i think i ask about this?
It's all frightening. People have wondered about RSE being a testing ground? Hard part is everyone pointing a finger-at someone or something else. The answer is-we don't know.
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I think its plausible... but a waste of time trying to prove.I think I would tend to downplay any covet connection between RSE and the US federal government as some sort of secret mind control experiment.
I've researched enough information to believe Governments have explored/experimented with all sorts of bizarre covert
studies. Social Engineering and ESP as covert weapons/tools for Military/Industrial/Political/espionage is on that list, if even just to rule it out as a threat
OK.. cue sinister music now > ....
Where else in the world could a Government have the opportunity to data harvest the results of > Human Experimentation < of literally thousands of dedicated "volunteers" from all walks of life... Religion, Ethnicities, Ages, Gender and Wealth.... subjected to the most extreme ESP test imaginable other than at RSE?
Given if its true...
Anything 'useful' to such a study covering over twenty years at RSE I am sure the results would have shown ESP to be useless and a dead end...
just like "Ramtha"
Can you elaborate please on why a ug needs to be regulated or should be a concern?
I guess that is called ex-member bias!
Anyway, blindfolds were used in "dynamic meditation" by the Rajneesh (Osho) cult back in 1970s.
http://www.oshorajneesh.com/osho-dynami ... wnload.htm
Rajneesh was a master hypnotist--he could entrance thousands in his audience and with techniques he introduced and they thought it was enlightenment.
forever, the stated purpose was "focus" in fieldwork but I think David was indicating the hidden agenda which was basically to get the students to get used to self-hypnosis which is defined as "focusing on something to diminish peripheral awareness, thus inducing trance states."
In trance, people are much easier to manipulate especially by the authority figure who placed you in trance (as in stage hypnosis, for example).
It is much easier to not notice what kind of sleight of hand may be going on when entranced even without blindfolds on.
Fieldwork for extended hours, sometimes called "mindfulness" in our "spiritually evolved" sub-culture of smart seekers ( I am being very facetious here), is an obvious ploy to outside observers that JZ is getting students used to being hypnotized, thus reducing the "chatter" in the mind (monkey mind). That chatter may be annoying thoughts but it also includes pre-frontal cortex discursive thinking that is our executive function, that part of us that makes us adult humans with free choice.
You can argue all you want that there is no "cheating" in field work, but in fact eyewitnesses have noted cheating, esp in the "tank" when people were blindfolded. If you were blindfolded, you have no way of knowing what happens with the cards all the time.
In any case, the blindfolds have nothing to do with true mindfulness or clarity of mind.
I do not buy that explanation.