Does it really matter that Ramtha is a fraud? - Death of hardcore RSE student Bodananda - EMF Forums 2007 - Debate

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Does it really matter that Ramtha is a fraud? - Death of hardcore RSE student Bodananda - EMF Forums 2007 - Debate

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:38 pm

Does it really matter that Ramtha is a fraud?
Pulled from our EMF Forums 2007.
*denotesmeaning
Oct 11, 2007 -

Throughout history, snake oil salesmen of whatever stripe, have soothed their tattered consciences with rationales like "what difference does it make if this is bullsh** or not, if it helps people that's what matters"
Chances are, Ms. Knight employs in a similar rationale in her private moments, it is impossible to say.
When I look at JZ Knight's behavior, I see a narcissist with an entrenched god complex combined with a penchant for self pity and a ravenous need to be perceived as a great martyr toiling for a cause,
Like all narcissists, she is convinced she has done the world an enormous favor just showing up.
Given the recorded evidence of Ms.Knights varied delusions [ channeling Jesus, actually having been JOAN OF ARC etc] she might logically conclude people have nothing better to do that worship her.

How odd it is, having been Joan of Arc, that she threatens to run away to France if people don't start "supporting [obeying/paying] her "school"
She wants you to know she is ready to go to France to get the attention a girl like her deserves:).
Of course, JZ/Ramtha tell you not to worship them/her. But they don't mean it. They crave it like the desert craves the rain.
Have you ever seen a little child say "don't look at me" when they really want nothing more than for you to look at them and pay attention to them.
Same thing with Ms. Knight. [and her buddy]

But does it matter? Does it matter whether a team of scientists claim they have documented physical changes to Ms. Knight as she assumes the personality of "Ramtha"?
Given that various forms of psychosis can probably reflect recordable changes in a persons physiology, is this really a testament of authenticity?
How does it speak to the veracity of her claim to be leaving her body and making way for an entity of greater consciousness and awareness?
It doesn't

But forget all that for a minute. Lets assume the greatest scientific minds descend on Yelm tomorrow and proclaim Ms. Knight as authentic as can be. Lets assume that science proclaims she is indeed channeling Ramtha.
So what?
No matter who is making Ms. Knight's lips move, the teachings are delusional, contradictory and create negative impact on the listener.
Consider:

1.The mind numbing message that you are god yet you are also a low life ingrate who just can't get it together.
2.The philosophy of "no pain no gain" taken to a punishing ludicrous extreme that manipulates the body's hormonal system to fool you into thinking you have had a spiritual experience when in truth you are experiencing your body's relief that it didn't die.
When under stress the body goes into flight/fight and when the fight or danger doesn't happen the body is flooded by a hormonal reaction that feels very good.
Like when in school you haven't prepared for a big test and you are all freaked only to find the test has been rescheduled for another day. The relief you feel in that situation is the same relief you feel after one of those body/mind bending "disciplines" Ms. Knight puts you through.

3. Telling people they are god and that their word is "law" and in the next sentence telling them the world is going to end and there is nothing you can do about it but buy a bunch of gold and canned peas is CRAZY MAKING.

4 the use of language is so baroque and so manipulative in itself. Ramtha/JZ creates a family dynamic even to the extent of naming people "My Daughter-en" [Ms. Knight' ]"My Brother" [Shirley MacLaine] then there is "Grandmother" and various members of "my army"

All of this is a technique of creating a sense of the familial and putting the follower in a childlike frame of mind.

This guy named "Dr. Greg" who has a radio show "Ask Dr. Greg" The language seems to be designed to elicit the childlike part of the personality that is impressed by titles and the familiarity of being on a first name basis with an authority figure.
Now I read he has named some character "Sir". Come on, this is just ludicrous and undignified.

5 Letting little gems like "I am a dark lord indeed" slip out at various moments. What the hell?? IF Ramtha were really a non physical entity, why would anyone follow him after declaring himself a "dark lord" who is feared on other planets because he might destroy them? THAT'S ENLIGHTENMENT>???

Fear is the reason. Forget gold, FEAR IS THE CURRENCY OF THE REALM OF RAMTHA AND JZ KNIGHT

6. The clear and simple fact that both Ramtha and JZ Knight are delusional mean spirited nasty people who don't give a **** how much heartache they engender because they are convinced it is for "your own good"
They threaten with "runners" or "days to come" or "moving to France" or any number of threats designed to put you in your place and keep them in charge. This is an undisputable dynamic. Please counter if possible

7. No good will come out of it. You cannot be happy preparing for disaster. It is hard to care about or think about anyone or anything else while preparing for disaster. It requires a singleness of focus.

There are real issues in the world that could use some spiritual attention. Just everyday kindness makes a difference in a holographic universe.
Preparing for destruction that never happens over and over turns you into a frightened ,solipsistic judgmental ,hoarder who has no sense of power and no sense of peace and safety.

Who would WANT to live in this subhuman world "Ramtha" predicts will emerge after all the disaster?
And after all, there is the truth that if you buy an expensive umbrella you start praying for rain.
After making all those preparations, you start praying for the disaster to strike in order to justify the effort.
Is that the earmark of spiritual enlightenment. You decide.
Here is a little story, Sufi in origin, but I am paraphrasing it, that makes the greater point.

A seeker approaches a wise teacher and begs the teacher to take him on as a student.
"Ok" says the teacher "but you must do everything I say and obey me"
"of course" says the student "anything you say, I want to be enlightened"
"very well" the master says "go and find me a big stick and bring it back to me"
The seeker returns with a stick and the master begins to beat the seeker harshly with the stick. After a while the master stops and says
"return tomorrow and bring the stick"
for many days the seeker returns with the stick and the master beats him, each time he tells the seeker
"return tomorrow an bring the stick"
One day the seeker returns but he does not have the stick with him. The master is angry and says
"Where is the stick, I told you to bring the stick"
The seeker says " you will not beat me anymore, if this is what it means to be enlightened, I don't want it"

"Congratulations, says the Master, you are enlightened"

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Tree Oct 11, 2007 - 8:13AM

Re: Does it really matter if Ramtha is a fraud?

i guess it does not matter who she is , in the scheme of things.
The thing that DOES matter, is that people have committed suicide because of her,
people have severe mental disorders as a result of participating in her scheme,
people have left families, countries,
businesses, (brought their money with them
of course, only to hand it over to her)
have basically given up anything that ever meant anything to them
to come to that god-forsaken , invisible
prison of the mind.
The aforementioned are RESULTS of a product.
THAT, in itself, should be enough of a
warning.
93rd street should have a warning sign
upon entering the grounds:
warning, may cause severe mental dis-orders, may cause suicide, may cause you to lose everyone you love,
may cause you to lose your former livlihood, may cause you your life.
Enter at your own risk, because we don't really care one way or the other how it turns out for you.
Have a nice day.

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*denotesmeaning Oct 11, 2007 - 8:24AM

Re: Does it really matter if Ramtha is a fraud?

Tree,

Without naming names or betraying confidences, is it possible for you to relate some of the stories of destruction you have heard?

I think it might help give people a reality check thanks

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joe sz Oct 11th, 2007 - 8:24 AM

Re: Does it really matter if Ramtha is a fraud?

*d, your sufi story rendition puts all RSE like groups into context. Gurdjieff [died 1949] and all the "Fourth Way" cults that he generates have this as the "chief feature." Submission to a "master" is necessary to accelerate your "soul" growth, and the "cazywise" [outrageous in Ramthaspeak] adept or master can do anything in the name of enlightenment to you. Adi Da [Frank Jones] who has his main ashram on a Fijian has been notorious for his abusive, lurid and sexual manipulation of close devotees, yet his devotees, some quite wealthy, swear by his enlightened status. imo, Adi Da makes JZ seem second rate when it comes to "outrageous."

In his fine study on Gurdjeff and Ouspensky[The Harmonious Circle] James Webb states exactly what your sufi fable teaches, esp in his last chapter, Of Masters and Men.

p 560: "The reader will ask: why if the pupils of the Fourth Way are in effect taken for a ride by their teachers, are there not more open denunciations of their real methods? The most obvious reason is that the victims are afraid of looking ridiculous--although, as every individual is ridiculous at almost every minute of the day, there is really not reason why such exposure should be feared. The second reason for the victim's silence may be that they have been converted to a belief that the Grand Inquistors [cult leaders] are right; that with the passage of time they have come to value their experience. This argues that a justification can be found for the apparently brutal methods which the Work sometimes used; and that this justification goes beyond a superficial attempt to reform people's personalities."

562: "The pupil must be thoroughly entangled for the trick to work, and the guru must first discover the unconscious premises on which each student bases his life: 'The secret that there is no secret. The Man Who Knows does not know.'

iow, there is no Wizard of Oz...he is a fraud. The question remains, what kind of fraud? Narcissistic and cruel or bossy but ultimately kind.

What ultimately mattered to me when I discovered this through my CUT/Prophet experience was what kind of fraud did I absorb? In my case, it was a major mess of egregious misrepresentations of all major religious traditions, science, diet, prayer, history, sexual conduct, language, literature--------

I think *denotes and others may agree with me, that while sorting this out, it helps ex-members to study other cult formations, history, science, religious ideas, and social psychology to finally shrink one's cult experience into perspective. Healing comes from expansion into reality tested territory in many disciplines. Too much focus on one's ex-cult can cause spiritual and social myopia. I went through that angry obsession for a year or two....

JZ may be some kind of fraud but she's merely one face in a crowd, one crooner in a cacophony of cons, and one hurting little girl struggling for recognition and revenge.

Joe

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*denotesmeaning Oct 11th, 2007 - 10:00 AM

Re: Does it really matter if Ramtha is a fraud?

"* Adi Da [Frank Jones] who has his main ashram on a Fijian has been notorious for his abusive, lurid and sexual manipulation of close devotees, yet his devotees, some quite wealthy, swear by his enlightened status. imo, Adi Da makes JZ seem second rate when it comes to "outrageous."

Agreed Joe, Agreed. The use of self flattering language to describe what would generally be considered just plain bad behaviour in other contexts is definitley a feature of JZ's technique.
Being "outrageous" can, of course, be a marvelous thing. But when it is really just boundless baseless arrogance displaying itself without check, thats not so pretty :}
Calling it "outrageous" elevats it and implies there is some secret spiritual dynamic producing the arrogant, smug and often silly behavior that you are just to unevolved to grasp.

I think this is a danger of groups. period. Any group runs the risk of arrogance, insiderness, smugness etc.
The difference is that many other religious movements do have some self checking mechanisms in the form of teaching humility or some form of self questioning is encouraged.
With Ramtha?/JZ, any kind of real self reflection is considered a weakness.
Students are encouraged to punish themselves for their failings but not to really reflect.
Its all this pain/reward/suffer/punish matrix that keeps people from looking inward in any real way and always looking outward to Ms. Knight/Ramtha for guidance and approval.

"I think *denotes and others may agree with me, that while sorting this out, it helps ex-members to study other cult formations, history, science, religious ideas, and social psychology to finally shrink one's cult experience into perspective. Healing comes from expansion into reality tested territory in many disciplines. Too much focus on one's ex-cult can cause spiritual and social myopia. I went through that angry obsession for a year or two...."

I definitely agree. It can be much easier to see the dynamic when it is played out against a backdrop of dogma you don't necessarily believe.

"JZ may be some kind of fraud but she's merely one face in a crowd, one crooner in a cacophony of cons, and one hurting little girl struggling for recognition and revenge."
Exactly, a hurt child seeking revenge and recognition.

Exactly

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Terra Oct 11th, 2007 - 10:22 AM

Re: Does it really matter if Ramtha is a fraud?

It does matter because of the demands that the fraud JZ places on the students.

As a constant seeker of truth and the meaning of life, I have "tried on" different religions. I discovered that as a whole, each religion was not for me but that I liked parts of each.

Think of it this way:
Two paths through the woods, each path purports to lead the path-taker to a glorious kingdom. I choose one path, let's call it the Buddhist path, along the way I smelled lovely flowers and enjoyed birds singing...but at the end of the path, no kingdom. Well, I am disappointed but I enjoyed the walk and got something out of it.

The second path is the JZ path...It also promises a kingdom. I walk it and along the way I am bitten by a snake and lose an eye to a low hanging tree branch. I get to the end of the path and find no kingdom...not only am I disappointed, I am horribly injured too!

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Tree Oct 11, 2007 - 6:16PM

Re: Does it really matter if Ramtha is a fraud?

Without naming names or betraying confidences, is it possible for you to relate some of the stories of destruction you have heard?"
just for starters, in the group of kids my son hangs out with on a regular basis, nearly all of the kids have parents who go to RSE. That is how the kids met.
1) one mother committed suicide 6 years ago.
2) another mother is STILL recovering from metal and toxic poisoning as the result of ingesting the Sea-11 water
3) one young girl , when "r" said, no one had ever died in his audience, her father keeled over at an event, and I was the lone mother not at that event who had to convey the message
4) on young man, his mother has been diagnosed with PTSD and borderline personality disorder, as a result of involvement with said group
5) one mother has serious bronchial complications, and refuses to see a doctor because "she and Blue Body" can heal herself.

How is that for starters?

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*denotesmeaning Oct 11, 2007 - 6:30PM

Re: Does it really matter if Ramtha is a fraud?

Just for clarification. I want it understood that my position on JZ Knight is that she IS a fraud and it certainly is adds a dimension to the whole list of her "crimes" that she is a fraud.

My intention in writing this post was to cut off at the knees the one [and evidently only] line of defense die-hard Ramsters like to offer when you criticize their beloved leader.

It seems they have been programmed to refer to that "study" Stan Krippner did as proof she is authentic.
My point was simply even if she were authenticity experiencing a genuine channeling [ and I believe at the present time she most certainly is not ] the material is still riddled with delusions, contradictions and dangerous conclusions.
Thats all. I hope it wasn't misinterpreted as some kind of apology for her deceit. I know some would argue it doesn't matter if she is for real or not as long as people are "helped"
I say forget whether Ramtha is real or not, this is a harmful set of teachings that diminish not enhance a persons spiritual life.

Regards,
DM

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whatchamacallitOct 11th, 2007 - 6:30 PM

Re: Does it really matter if Ramtha is a fraud?

DM posted, "I say forget whether Ramtha is real or not, this is a harmful set of teachings that diminish not enhance a persons spiritual life."

I so agree with this and have posted same in the past, myself. It just doesn't matter who is speaking as Ramtha. What matters is the message and actions, which speak for themselves, and don't bode well for remaining a current student. Or, validating a teaching that is true to it's core principles. It's hypocrisy when one can stomach to look.

DM, to add to your info, I want to reiterate something that has also been discussed on this forum, which was pivotal for me, in leaving.

After the December tsunami in the Indian Ocean, when so many people drowned, "Ramtha" AND "JZ" addressed the audience during two separate events. They "both" stated that EVERYONE who died in that tsunami DESERVED TO BE DEAD because they didn't have their intuition honed enough to know they needed to get out of the way, as the animals did, that the tsunami was coming.

Upon hearing that, I was speechless. Shocked. Deeply disturbed. To this day, even beyond "Ramtha" verbally abusing me in audience, that tsunami comment took the cake. In my opinion, that was sheer evil talking.

Just wanted to be sure you were aware of that experience.

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littlewiseone Oct 11th, 2007 - 7:02 PM

Re: Does it really matter if Ramtha is a fraud?

****Terra wrote:
Two paths through the woods, each path purports to lead the path-taker to a glorious kingdom. I choose one path, let's call it the Buddhist path, along the way I smelled lovely flowers and enjoyed birds singing...but at the end of the path, no kingdom. Well, I am disappointed but I enjoyed the walk and got something out of it.
The second path is the JZ path...It also promises a kingdom. I walk it and along the way I am bitten by a snake and lose an eye to a low hanging tree branch. I get to the end of the path and find no kingdom...not only am I disappointed, I am horribly injured too!****

This is a great analogy!

As Tree said, many people have suffered in various obvious and not so obvious ways. I can add that a (previously) very close friend of mine became ill with cancer and even until the day that he was screaming in pain for days in his home he did not seek out medical care of his own accord. Of course neither was he encouraged to do so by the people close to him, but that's another story.

Some of you know who I am talking about, and you didn't have to know him very well to know that if he was screaming from pain - he was r e a l l y in pain. The sort of person who could sit 'in focus' for hours on end.

He died only 3 weeks after being admitted to the hospital.
Until the last moment he asserted that he was not going to die.
I blame the teachings for his delusion.

He was the most dedicated person ever to go to that school, and I am not exaggerating. JZ/ram even told him that he was going to be one of the first Christ's. I don't need any proof for the fact that the teachings are a scam but I tell you, he is the ultimate proof.

If he could not do it - I promise you: N O O N E E V E R will.

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Cowboy Oct 11th, 2007 - 8:26 PM

Re: Does it really matter if Ramtha is a fraud?

Hey littlewiseone,
You must be talking about Bodananda. I was in the audience when JZ/"Ramtha" talked about meeting Bodananda after his death.
JZ/"Ramtha" said, "Bodananda was so surprised to see me. He said, 'Oh, so you are real, after all.'"
JZ never misses an opportunity to mess with people's minds.

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littlewiseone Oct 12, 2007 - 6:54PM

Re: Does it really matter if Ramtha is a fraud?

Yes, that's who. I heard about the 'teaching' she gave after his death. To this day, that infuriates me. What an insult to the person. It's so cowardly to talk about someone after they've died in order to re-invent reality. I wish I had been there, what a slimy piece of excrement. Ugh.

It saddens me too, because say what you want about Bo, he was a unique individual who had hung his entire existence on this journey. We can not fault him for not giving 100,000 %. JZ didn't know him. She used him and he didn't know it. That makes me sad.

Just the whole way people had to put him down in death in order to make themselves feel better for being the ones who were still here, yuck. Of course he could only have died because he somehow didn't 'get it', never because it was all just a crock of ****. Obviously, I still feel a little sore about it.

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Tree Oct 12, 2007 - 8:22PM

Re: Does it really matter if Ramtha is a fraud?

she did not know him JZ only heard through her staff and friends
she made a frigging TEACHING out of his death.
GAWD!!!!
can she be gone yet??? go to France, you beyotch.
and good luck. you are only fluent in English.
and on top of the teaching, "r" said, only "Blue body was the only one to go see him."

You know what???
Blue body would go no where unless it was in his best interest....
and he has his bills paid...
so what are his interests?
poker...drinking...fishing.....

you really think he gave a crap
about Bohdananda?
you have GOT to be kidding me.

(even though, and this might be another tacet here...
Charles/aka Bohdananda belonged to the Shree Rash Neesh before he came to Yelm.
and he was his "own" cult, within a cult, while here in Yelm. He asked that the people in his group, pay for weekly yogic/exercise/energy lessons, he slept with many in this small circle...
he was just a product..of two very
powerful products.
In the end...."r" gave a teaching about
Charles' arrogance- how it was misunderstood because in a previous lifetime, he was a prince...and he came to Yelm, still thinking he was a prince.
And then, upon his death, "R" met him.
And then Charles/aka Bohdananda..."knew"
that "R" existed)

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littlewiseone Oct 13, 2007 - 12:11AM

""Blue body was the only one to go see him.""

Grrrrrrrrr (in a very deep and growly voice). The words I would like to use are not allowed on this forum. http://images.bravenet.com/common/image ... _angry.gif

Here's what I can say: what a liar.

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Tree Oct 13, 2007 - 11:42AM

Blue Body refers to 1) a discipline of healing (cough)
2) One halloween, James Flick painted himself entirely blue, and "R" has since called him Blue Body.

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G2G Oct 14, 2007 - 5:40

LOL. Probably both. I can only imagine "James" all "blue." That would be entertainment! I wonder, too, what the videos look like of all doing "blue body dance (TM)" with blue stars and webs drawn on us, all blindfolded, and dancing FOREVER! (and expecting to wake up in the am with new eyeballs, or a head full of hair!

"Blue Body" is a discipline in the form of a paganistic? and partially "east Indian" (snake dance). It's supposed to do away with the old, and "build a new body." So very, very similar to the Hindu God and his partner, Parvati - the "Dance of Destruction and Renewal." It's a typical temple dance in India. If you've ever seen a round, flame-like figurine with a 'sticklike' figure in pose in the middle, that is the Nataraja- Shiva doing his dance.

Something else "borrowed." Only Hinduism does not claim the healing of the body of an individual, but the doing away with all and renewal of all.

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EyesWideOpen Oct 14th, 2007 - 5:40 PM

Never heard of the Blue Man Group.

At RSE "blue body" is a "so called" method of healing
which involves focusing on "shimmering blue webs" (borrowed straight out of a book by Vera Stanley Alder titled "From the Mundane to the Magnificent.")
This dogma (something put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds) was introduced in 1993 and I was there.

At best it may qualify for the placebo effect but beyond that it doesn't work.

I recall an event where JZ-pretending-to-be-Ramtha referred to her current boyfriend, James, as "Bluebody." "He has taken the teaching to heart more than anyone else," she crooned. (She must have wanted something...) Ever since then "Ramtha" has called James "Bluebody."

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whatchamacallit Oct 14, 2007 - 8:21PM

EWO posted, "I recall an event where JZ-pretending-to-be-Ramtha referred to her current boyfriend, James, as "Bluebody." "He has taken the teaching to heart more than anyone else," she crooned."
That's totally true. I was there, too. I heard it.
Yeah, well, Audrey used to be "more of", too. Look where it got her.

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Pulled from our Bravenet EMF Forum - 2007
http://pub43.bravenet.com/forum/static/ ... 9&cmd=show
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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