When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Experiences with physical, mental and emotional forms of abuse by JZ Knight-Ramtha, RSE Staff, About student deaths.
Indigo
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:58 am

When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Indigo » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:44 am

I am curious as I left the school shortly after the first few tank and field experiences, and the first "all nighters" sitting in the field, in the rain and snow, and I think 3 Essays. I moved to Yelm before there was a school and stayed for about five years, but while I built a mostly self sufficient place out in the sticks in Bald Hills around other students (Zaffi, Mike Ault, etc) I kept working and never got into the poverty a lot of students did. There was no drinking, period, Ram was against that, and except for the first, crazy experience where we all were blindfolded and lined up on two sides of the field and instructed to run as fast as we could across the field, bashing into each other, I didn't see any physical abuse. (I remember all the serious injuries after that insane field exercise. Oh, and someone, a staff member I think, got a detached retina trying to get into the void by crawling on the floor in the tank and got her face stepped on. And various injuries as we did the silly "find the tank" starting at the top of the property and smashing through the woods and blackberries for hours and hours and falling into big holes. Yeah, that was fun. And I paid money for it, too. LOL ) But I am stunned to hear of Ram/JZ slapping and demeaning people. There was lots of physical demands, especially in the Essays, that we were sort of crazy to accept as I look back on it, but I am shocked to hear these stories of verbal and physical abuse. I remember when we started staying over and sleeping on the dust in the arena. We would all have terrible coughs after several days of that and we would say we were transmuting! I was there when JZ and Jeff broke up, for the horse auction we all volunteered to help with, and JZ kept denying to the end that she and Jeff were breaking up, even as JO was moving in. I remember Dr. Joe doing adjustments in his barn, the initial Happy Hovel, Vicki Cady, Glenn Cunningham and having tea at his place, and on and on. I remember when we all went to Estes Park, before there was any school. I was in Ak Men Rah (I don't even remember how to spell it!) I ran a B&B for events for a few years before moving further out into Bald Hills. Then, I just decided enough after a lot of thought, I was done, sold my place out in Bald Hills and happily left. Very happily left. I think it was all the underground dwellings that did it for me. And Lizard people. That was not on my "Time spiral", I would take my chances. I did leave a lot of money behind, as did most of us. Lately, with all the earth changes I got a bit curious to see what Ram was saying, found your site, and boy, what an eye opener. I remember when there were no photos allowed of Ram--now JZ is everywhere. And all the plastic surgery, jeez, I wouldn't have known it was her. What's up with that? When I moved up and then after the first school started, it was to be a 7 year school. Could someone give me a synopsis of the last several years (like 12 years I guess) and how this turned so dramatically? When I was around Ram/JZ it was a more supportive environment, if demanding. I would just like to understand the evolution into what is now taking place. What a strange experience. I do/did think it was authentic the first 2 or 3 years, then it seemed Ram left and JZ took over. But, hey, who knows. I did see Ram do 2 or 3 things that seemed to confirm extra powers at the very beginning. Perhaps it was a projection of my wishes for an authentic teacher. He sure told great stories at the retreats as we were falling asleep...anyone remember the Shambala one? .Thanks!

ex
Posts: 857
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:18 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by ex » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:55 am

i think the public wine drinking started at the end of the 90s. interesting to me is that you mention that the first few years were autentic then jz takes over. this get reported from several people in different time periods. did ramtha [or jz as ramtha] drink in a privat circle at your time? wasen't the school very strict with all the rules or did they develop later? thanks for writing here.

appealing
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:38 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by appealing » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:10 am

Wow Indigo, you certainly 'knew' a different Ramtha to me. I saw so many examples of JZ hurling abuse at some unfortunate being who was not confident enough to stand up to JZ and stop her demeaning behaviour. And many others encouraged her - I guess they were glad it was not them in the firing line! And huge amounts of drinking and smoking went on. I spent just a short time as a current student on an official basis, but I played along with the expected behaviours to show I fitted in for a bit longer. We were told that drinking opened the brain in terms of receptiveness etc. (more like reduces critical thinking ability and inhibitions.) Otherwise intelligent people still believe her rubbish, which is what I find most astounding now. It sounds like you have had your fair share of 'interesting' experiences there! :shock: What was the field exercise supposed to acheive?!?! Feel free to share more, it's a bit fascinating really. We have our own specimen of psychoticness to observe in JZ!

Appealing

User avatar
Robair
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:49 pm
Location: Nevada

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Robair » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:05 pm

Hello Indigo Welcome
A rude awakening for you in a way. I do remember everything yuo said .Many have use the excuse that Ramtha was there and Now gone. And that also was my first reaction in 07 when I got shocked with the reality of it all. I think now that the Estes Park bomb scare was a set up to move everything to Yelm. My wife was there not me we were living in Aspen Colorado at the time and one of us needed to stay at behind to take care of the ranch. The famous running in the field I do remember it well, I was not so scare myself I am a pretty big guy but like you I say many got hurt remember lot of them was sitting against the fence as we went by back to the great hall .
In a retreat in Yucca Valley in 1983 if I remember well maybe 82 I would have to go back to my old stuff to be sure but that close enough. The lying Dr Greg was there at that retreat also. A lady had brought her crystal for sale she had set up a small table at the entrance of the meeting hall, some of us had bought crystal from her before so no really a big thing. JZ came out as Ramtha and started to blast her told her to never bring that stuff to her event again and started to make a very big deal about that we did not need anything outside of us that we have everything in us to achieve Godhood or massterhood if you will. Now thinking back she was starting to protect her marketing turf. Since then she has promoted many products to help get to enlightenment, I myself left before all that. What do you think of the famous Ram promoting thing like Wine, Smoking Pipe, Swearing Drink sea 11 Water, and products like PROZAC and Twinkies to achieve Enlightenment.

Her is a thought about Ramtha being there and gone. Can someone explain to me why a so call powerful God would leave and let someone use and trashed his Good Name. Do they also have Trademark laws in his dimension that would bind him to do so, I guess JZ was Smarter then he, and Trademarked the name Ramtha before he thought of it and Voila the great white Brotherhood couldn’t do anything about it. :oops: :roll: :D
Robair
I Value Things Not For What They Worth But For What They Represent

Indigo
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:58 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Indigo » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:23 pm

Boy, this is my third try at posting a response....I hope they don't all show up. If so, please accept my apology. I must be hitting a wrong button here. LOL. So, here's the deal in a nutshell this time. I must have left Yelm around 1991 or 92 because in backing this up, I first saw him in San Diego around 1985 and moved a few months later. I hadn't thought of the school or Ram over the years, once I extracted myself, unless I came across a book I had stuck away in a box, or an errant Ramtha Dialogues tape. I got rid of almost all of them thinking "If I can't remember what I learned there without tapes, I didn't learn it."
I am speechless at the use of wine (is it true JZ drinks until drunk and vomits on the stage??!!), smoking, sea water (what the heck is that about?) and prosac? (sp?) Now, there is a clue, prozac? What are people thinking - they are drugged.
When I met Ram in San Diego which must have been around 1985 or 86,, I was extremely dubious. I held back My friend loved him and had done a workshop in Yucca Valley with him, so I went. There were maybe 40-50 people there in a hotel conference room. Ram went around the room, talked with most, if not all of us, hugged some people. Then he went back later to a very large, heavy man, maybe 250-300 pounds , over 6' tall, and lifted him up, not just for a moment but held him up for at least a minute or two, way off the ground. That got my attention. JZ is small, as you all know. So, I pondered if there might be something there to open up to, and spent the bucks to fly to Yelm for one of the small groups JZ was doing over the weekend at her house there. Fifty people max. I don't remember what she called it. It was before any school. Over the two days Ram went from person to person, asked why they were there, asked and answered questions for each person, and taught, as I recall. It's a long time ago. What I do remember is my interaction with him. then, at the end of the last day, he went around the entire room, pointing to each person without hardly taking a breath and summarized what they asked, what he said, what to do, bam, bam, bam. I just couldnt' see any way that could be fake unless JZ has an absolute photographic memory. I thought, does he have a mike in his ear and someone is cueing him, but no, he spoke way, way too fast for that. I went back home. I sold a house and moved, becoming very fearful of the imminent Days to Come and first 2 years or so lived near Olympia. I worked and went to the ranch weekends for any event that was going on. It was my community, and then, it was a lot of very supportive people. Ram was nice, too. Encouraging us on. Then the school started. (Oh, I went to Estes Park once, too, but I wasn't there for a bomb scare. I do remember on our flight home from whatever we were doing in Estes Park, C&E included, the plane had electrical problems (there were many retreat attendees on board that plane to Seattle and we had been doing hours and hours of C&E each day) and we laughed and laughed as they held up the flight because the electrical system wasn't working. I had forgotten that. Maybe coincidence...I am not defending my choice here to go to RSE - nor defending JZ--I think we look for excuses for some less then stellar decisions we make sometimes. I own my decision to go up there, to stay, and to submit to some things later on that now seem just plain stupid. But, there were some things I personally saw and experienced early on, that do make me wonder. What is going on out there now sounds like madness. Period. What kind of enlightenment is this, anyway? JZ drinks to where she vomits on the floor? Physical and verbal abuse? I hope someone who has been abused will file a legal complaint and end this. JZ has issues and needs help if what is being said is accurate. If there ever was a Ram, (and good point, why would he exit and let her market this "school"?) I have no clue. But, I did learn a lot, some helpful some not so much, to put it kindly
The point of the field work, as I understood it, was to develop both our psychic ability and inner vision ability to find our underground dwelling when the call went out to "run for the hills", so to speak. We were to communicate telepathically from those bunkers. I never could get into that....there was just no way I was going to live underground.
I am happy to write more about the early days if you'd like to hear, but i want to post this and see if it posts this time.

Indigo
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:58 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Indigo » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:51 pm

Ok, so it posted and I am still on my memory lane deal, I will finish. I wanted to talk about the madness of going out into the woods above the tank, blindfolded and spending hours thrashing around in the woods, bumping into trees and rocks and then blackberry brambles, trying to find the tank, then finally getting there (some unfortunate people fell into some very large holes out there in the woods and either sprained or broke limbs I recall) and once inside the tank the drama starts all over. After a few weekends or days of that, I started to be less than enthusiastic, even though i sometimes got into the void. I came to wonder if they just manipulated the tank to allow certain people into the void. The very first tank I whizzed right into the void and Ram told the ones who made it to the void that we would never had to do this again. Anyone remember that? Well, that changed! People got hurt in the tank. Are they still doing it?

Towards the end of my 5 years I was doubting, and feeling guilty about doubting, it had taken a lot to get up there and get all (well pretty much) set up for the DTC...I knew JZ had lied to us about not divorcing Jeff when it was about to happen, I saw the expensive cars and all the money she spent on her appearance, I saw other people living in the woods, in tents, or in little huts with no heat, no plumbing, sometimes no food, and it just gets to you. Why is this level deprivation necessary? So, my last interaction with Ram/JZ. I was on the field and it was twilight, there not too many people there for some reason that time. I worked up the courage to walk up to Ram, finally and trying several times to do it.(He turned his back on me as I was directly approaching him but I just kept on). I don't recall who the two bodyguards were that night, I was focused on Ram. Then I got there and asked if I could hug him. I had always held back around him and never really hugged him. He/she took me and held me tightly for quite a while, one hand on the back of my head like you would hold a small child, and finally said "Go and learn." What? I was on the field, what did that mean. I went home that night. Well, the next day I was dazed and found all I could do was go outside of my little place, way out off of Bald Hills Rd , and sit and watch Mt. Rainer when it was out, listen to the birds and wind in the trees, and cry. The tears flowed, gently, continuously for 3 days. I couldn't speak, just sit. I felt like my body was vibrating at a high rate. Only one other person knows this story until now, as I post it here. . Donna Nickerson, who may still be in Yelm and,if so, must now be in her 80's. She stopped by, worried about me, she had seen me hug Ram the night before and guessed something was up. She just sat for a while in silence. Later she told me that when Ram has physical exchanges with people like that it is not uncommon for the body to react. I cannot explain it...perhaps I made it up. But, something did happen. I never went back to "school", listed and sold my little place to a new student, a make up artisit from Hollywood who would come and go between doing movies in Paris with big name stars. I was done.
Back to the trademarks, photos, commercialism...all of these, to me, smack of a money making consciousness. I went to Yelm thinking I was one of the select few, the ones chosen to move to the woods and go to an ancient school of wisdom (which, when the school started was going to be 7 years!) Hmmmm, taking a while longer.
Thanks for those of you who remember some of this. It is therapeutic to write it down after all these years. I just left and moved on and didn't look back. All the recent earth change have caught my attention though, hence my pulling up RSE and then finding you guys, Glenn's video and the video with the man who does cult deprogramming. All were very enlightening. Glenn never once, in all the years I knew him, and we would often stop by for tea at his little house, let on he felt Ramtha was a fraud. Interesting. There were so may plots and subplots going on!
Best to all of you. Does anyone know if Nancy Spain and Roberta are still up there? And Tobi Perkins? Name from long ago....it is hard to believe people are just now starting the experience in Yelm. Yikes.

Indigo
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:58 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Indigo » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:28 pm

One final (I promise) last thought from.Robair's question to me. If Ram was real and then left, (pure speculation here for fun)...the thought occurs to me to ask.... .Did the wine drinking, drugs and smoking, verbal and physical abuse start about 7 years after the original school opened? Just curious, that could be interesting to give a little thought. I imagine, if he were real, he is wherever, laughing, thinking, "I gave you the tools, now use them. You don't need to do all of this other crazy stuff." I guess that comes from my yoga training, and the quote I love that "The teacher appears long enough for the student to realize the real Guru is within. All knowledge is within." You do not look outward too much once you get that teaching. But, that's just me and one of my many paths of interest in my lifetime of seeking. And, clearly, it would not be good for JZ's business dealings to spread that around. Did Ram ever say something like that? It seems like he may have, early on, but it is a fuzzy recollection. All these old memories are coming back that I have not accessed in so many years. At the risk of sounding batty, what the heck, I probably already do, the last experience I had with him that was a big "Whoa" and soon after I had move up there. I was on the field with a few students around him in the early days, and Ram turned and pointed up to the sky (it was an unusual sunny day in Yelm, I couldn't hear what he said) and the clouds came up right way over that small circle I was in and the rain came, just there... So, for whatever, there is my, pretty much whole, story of why I think he may have been real at first. (The other 2 are in the earlier postings. You be the judge. I am not hung up on it either way.) People used to say he doesn't want to show/flaunt his powers s he isn't over run with requests for miracles-- but, I don't know, it's all most unusual and probably not worth spending too much time on. I seriously doubt he is sending any vindictive demons out after former students if he is real andif that is now the teaching. I think just use whatever wisdom or tools we got while there, get on with it and release the past. What do you think?

We were all brave enough to step out into something pretty wild and strange, (was the word outrageous one used a lot there?) ie hungry enough in looking for spiritual truth to try something off the path. We just took a detour...maybe a big detour, maybe not so much, but hey, think of the stories we have to tell now if we want to risk it! Not, in any regard, to make light of those who are currently suffering up there now, or those who committed suicide. Their families must be so torn between the terrible feeling of guilt of not being able to save their loved ones and anger at JZ. For me, I do believe in karma and reincarnation, so I tend to take death a bit less seriously and not as a final thing. They will be back. I think/believe we keep coming back, over and over, until we finally get it right. But I digress.

Om Shanti.....or what did Ram use to day, oh yeah, "So Be It"....now there's a blast from the past. We haven't led boring lives in a corporate cube all the time at least! Would love to hear what all of you think..especially those who were there about the same time frame.

User avatar
Robair
Posts: 696
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:49 pm
Location: Nevada

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Robair » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:10 pm

Hello Indigo
No you are not ranting, you have shared with us some of your personal experiences while in RSE, even though we do get on JZ case and telling the truth about this crooked 9 faces Oil salesman, this site is about helping ex Ramster with their recovery after discovering the truth. Many have gone with their life not looking back but many have been destroyed by this Charlatan.
To respond to your questions the wine ceremonies Started around 99-00 , I was not there anymore when that came up. So it was long after the 7 years school, so you still special :-)
Yes on the video you just put on it has been on our site the last 10 days. On that Video she had left the comment part open, I was able to post about 30 posts myself, but I guess after 3 days JZ woke up from her drunkenness and realized that she had screwed up. I myself think that she will eventually take it off You tube sometime if not well it is a great tool for us.
Many things you said resonated with me I moved to Yelm January 2 1990.
Yes about the tank they had secrets door that they would control and open them to whoever they wanted to and that was going on for a longtime. If you were a friend O f Mike halt he did not share that information with you, he knew about them so is J.O. and Don Marshall the master builder they were the one with the secret . I don’t think Glen knew about that we can ask him someday, when JZR (JZ has Ramtha) was on the top of the tank she did not need body guarding.
Robair
I Value Things Not For What They Worth But For What They Represent

freemysoul
Posts: 362
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:40 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by freemysoul » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:01 am

Indigo,
Thank you so much for your post. It is very interesting to me to hear about the early years there, and just how much it has changed over the years. I started attending in 1994/1995, just before the wine ceremonies took hold. This was about the "you need Prozac", or "vitamin P" as it was called coyly by JZ, times took hold. It was at a Boktau in the summer of 1998 if I remember correctly, that JZ pointed out to the crowd, and ordered every student to drink wine. She went on to explain the health benefits and went on a rambling unintelligible speech about the effects on the brain, the history of wine, etc. etc, and after the first half hour, everyone was hammered, passing out, heading off to the trees to get it on, fighting, everything drunk people do. The wine ceremonies were a great excuse to get hammered, hook up, dance, or whatever, most of them turned into a giant party, with JZ portraying herself as a martyr or picking someone out of the audience to bash on emotionally or sometimes physically. JZ is a mean drunk. The wine ceremonies were the beginning of the end for me, and helped swing my pendulum of doubt all the way to, this is a crock of shit, what am I doing here. I continued to attend because I had dedicated my life to this, my whole emotional and physical selfs were tied to RSE in a way that I would have to change all of it, to return to the real world.
By the way, Glen Cunningham, and several friends from school who knew JZ personally have all said that she has a photographic memory, and retains information for extraordinary lengths of time.
I was intrigued by your stories of JZ picking up the large man, and the rain cloud. Personally, I have heard many, many stories that were similar to yours from lots of other people, but have never experienced in my 15 years there, one single extraordinary thing that couldn't be explained. I know that while I was there, I wanted those things to be true to justify my reason for being there, and to displace the doubts I had with proof of the magic JZ claimed to have.
What was it that made you decide to leave? Do you still practice the philosophies you were taught by JZ? Do you at least entertain the thought that JZ has made all this up? Just curious. Thank you for your posts.

Indigo
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:58 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Indigo » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:23 am

Thanks for the kind responses. I guess I had a lot bottled up inside on this topic and once I got started it just kept bubbling up. To answer your question, no I don't practice anything I learned at RSE. Some of the early teachings about creating your own reality are found in many other "religions" and I clearly believe what we think about and focus on is what we ultimately draw into our lives. I do some simple yoga meditations, focus boards on occasion, journal sometimes, and practice being grateful each day for all the wonderful things in my life. I practice Ahimsa to the best of my ability, (the non harming of living creatures by action or thought) I couldn't help think about Karma as I watched the video from April 2nd with JZ--at first I was dumb stuck, I literally could not believe my eyes and ears, then horror is a good word.Then sadness, and finally a feeling of embarrassment. And, she has aged terribly, all that bad Karma and booze, smoking and drugs catching up with her, perhaps? Clearly, she needs professional help. Sad.

I left because of all the fear and negativity pervading the area, and the lack of joy. I no longer fit with the school. And, I think I was just done there and internally and knew there was more for me someplace else. The thrill was long gone. It was a hard decision, because, like you, I had built my life mostly around the survival/school and preparation for the imminent disasters JZ kept hammering on the last five years. But, I had family and friends in California and I just sold my little place and left. A funny phrase just came to mind in regards to leaving as in...."Gone With the Wind." I consider it a very wise decision to leave after what I viewed today.

What is taking place at the ranch now stuns me. How is it that she is allowed to do this? I had thought that people may have been exaggerating about the drinking, wow, was I wrong. Sorry!

As for the early days, yes, they were radically different. No drinking, strict rules, overall a nice sense of community, but that was starting to change when I left. Of course, there were some crazy practices and lots of gossip if you wanted to listen. It seemed some of the staff began to have a condescending attitude towards the students. Not all, but certain staff really stand out in my memory. Yelling, treating students almost like cattle. Subtle things, also, like having to stand in very long lines in the rain and snow, being treated with rudeness and a lack of consideration began to happen.

Robaire, Mike Ault was a neighbor of mine. While I didn't hang out with them, I did know them. I believe they left the school shortly before I moved. Good to know the secret to getting into the void is contacts....LOL.

Thanks everyone. If you have any questions I'm happy to answer them. Oh, and good to know JZ had a photographic memory, does that work for live interactions as well? That would explain one of my early experiences.

Indigo
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:58 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Indigo » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:42 am

BTW, after I watched that video of JZ today,, I turned off my pc feeling quite sick and shaken. I had a little talk with myself and then took myself to my yuppy Sports Club for a sauna and jacuzzi, to immerse myself in happy vives. My, how life has changed from RSE days and living in the woods with a generator, wood stove and batteries for lights. Oh yes.

We are all very fortunate to have come out of that experience and moved on successfully. Thanks again. You are doing good work here.

As for one last question, I don't know if JZ made it all up...I can't explain her lifting that very large man in front of me, nor the rain in the field, nor, really, the type of teachings Ram would give and the stories he would tell in the early days. If she can make that all up, she is wasting her talents trying to fool people. As for now, from what I saw today, I am totally convinced it is JZ. Even the mannerisms are different in this video than when I went to the ranch, not to mention voice and delivery. (taking into consideration she is drunk.)

Take care.

freemysoul
Posts: 362
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:40 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by freemysoul » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:41 am

Thank you Indigo. It is wonderful to have you here. Your experience and wisdom will be added to a treasure trove of compassionate insight that this site has accumulated. EMF is, free of charge, built on love, logic and sincerity, has brought me back from the brink of being completely lost, to understanding that I am not alone in the confusion and doubt that filled my life upon leaving RSE. I am once again productive, compassionate and full of life thanks to the people just like you who have taken their time to generously help those who suffer from the devastation JZ Knight brings into peoples lives.
Again, Thank you.

appealing
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:38 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by appealing » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:41 am

Hi Indigo,
I just want to say I have really enjoyed reading your posts. It's also lovely to read such balance is there (my interpretation of the way your writing portrays you :-) ) I particularly love that you headed for your yuppy sports club lol. It's been an unusual time for me as I have been re-entering what I would consider to be a more normal pattern of behaviours for me without deeming everything to be 'social consciousness' in the negative sense. I have really enjoyed getting to know people and seeing them all as equally as wise and aware in their own ways, and many times more so (after all it was I, not they, who wasted time and money on buying sacks of wheat for the end of the world etc!) :lol: I guess I'm just learning to allow the experiences I have had to be what they have been without wasting energy on worrying about them now.

Anyway, thanks - your insights and experiences are valued.

Appealing

Another Dimension60
Posts: 291
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:28 pm

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:35 pm

Thanks for your sharing Indigo - and perhaps more aptly named "Gone with/from "the Wind"!
I ditto the remarks re attributing 'powers' to Ramtha - as I've written previously on this message board, it took me 15 years to realize that what I experienced at my first Dialogue(1984) as an ocean of love was not because of ramtha, but because of the Spirit of those gathered. My rationalization of Ramtha's 'reality' was the exquisiteness of the 'dance' movements - which I later learned was Tai Chi. It was decades later that I found out that jz works out, alot.
It's also fascinating to me how I and others keep figuring a time when ramtha was and wasn't. For me, and others, the demarcation was at the infamous "Gathering of the Eagles" event in Yelm - JZ called specific people to Ramtha's audience - it was at this event that "The School"/RSE began. ... I believed it was when jz took over - until I listened to the tape of that gathering repeatedly - until I finally heard the same pattern of behavior that was throughout every 'event' - where the bottom line was that although we/the audience had potential, we were lazy or not sufficiently passionate, or whatever but he ramtha was our only salvation/teacher to enlightenment and our full potential. .... Then, a year or so ago I heard the author of the White Book describe that pattern even in the early early Dialogue days--- Also in the early days of emf there's a post re the Cycle of Abuse = ramtha's behavior. Why would an enlightened Being need to resort to psychological/emotional abuse to teach truth. The abuse became more evident and physical with the wine ceremonies, but the abuse has been present since day one.
An unmentioned horror of the wine ceremonies is the number of ramsters who have become alcoholics and the ramifications of that on their and their families lives.

Another Dimension60
Posts: 291
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:28 pm

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:44 pm

The 'teachings' of the Dialogue and Intensive days -i.e. prior to 1989/The School - are 180 degrees different from those of RSE - the differences all explained away by ramtha claiming to have lied - for our own good.
In the early Dialogue days - at the end of the weekend, there would be a glass of wine for everyone to be drunk at a Ramtha toast -- a very very big point was made how jz hated it when ramtha drank. Juice was an available alternative for non-drinkers, even though jz/ramtha drank the wine. Years later, in Yelm, at the RSE bookstore, a book on making drinks or some alcohol related book had come to the bookstore - when I commented on it to the employee, she responded that it was a mistake and how jz was allergic to alcohol and didn't drink blah blah blah.... Years after that I recognized another pattern in jz/ramtha - she always tells on herself via proclaiming the opposite.....
apparently, though I have no personal knowledge, jz has been a drinker of alcohol for a long time....

Indigo
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:58 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Indigo » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:14 pm

I am so overwhelmed by the lovely, kind, articulate and thoughtful responses to my posts. It was like waking up to Christmas here today. I have enjoyed your posts immensely and you have touched my heart and made me smile. Perhaps this is why we were all drawn to the RSE experience, to exchange learnings many years later. I want to answer each of you separately, and took a few notes this time, so hopefully I will do your emails justice.

Appealing:

Your posts are beyond wonderful and if I have been of any small help in casting some hope, light or thoughts of new options as you walk away from the old life in Yelm, I am thrilled beyond words. Re-entering the "normal" world is a process, be gentle and kind to yourself. I would say don't be afraid to take new classes, dance (literally, I do a Latin dance class I have grown to adore), be around and in nature, music, travel, cook, learn a new language, whatever makes your soul smile and makes you feel good. I have been out of RSE over 20 years and it has been a process. If I have some level of balance in my life, it is from all the years and years of seeking and trying new things. I fell down a lot and I still do, but I get up faster, finally. :-) Here's a little of my history. After I left RSE I moved to Corona del Mar, a little beach town, and my daughter moved in with me who had just graduated from UCI. I had her to divert my attention, which any child, even a grown one, will do. But, I felt empty spiritually and went to The Chopa Center, joined a Chopra meditation group locally, poked around, checked out the Tibetan monks who were visiting UCI and creating a sand mandala for world healing (loved that, and I went every day for the 7 days they were there to just soak up the peace and spirituality as they created this mandala), read a lot, Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer, Ram Dass, Abraham, (channeled but much less dogmatic) yoga journal, Rumi, Tao te Ching, Vipassana, etc. etc., hung out at Whole Foods, farmers markets, walked the beach,(soaked up the sun after Yelm,) and anyplace that felt good to me. I traveled as well. I went back to work after a couple of months. Later, So. Cal. did not resonate with me and I moved to No. Cal. where I loved the ability to get away from a pleasant suburban setting into wine country, Yosemite, Tahoe or Big Sur. I had a job offer, too. (vision board results) It was also close to a yoga center I had found that was very authentic and I liked spending time at. I attribute a lot of my growth to that center and their loving and non dogmatic acceptance of all religions and paths. It was a process. Hence, my joining the health club which is another major part of my life the past several years. It is so rewarding to walk through those doors into a lovely club filled with happy, healthy, fit people - it inspires me to take care of myself physically as well as mentally and spiritually. (Note, yesterday after viewing that video of JZ from earlier this month, I felt physically "yucky" is the best word, and man, off I went in a hurry to the health club immerse myself in some positive energy.)

You just came out of a difficult time in your life. Congratulations for moving on!!! Did you leave the area? Just curious.

I use a lot of affirmations (I need visuals) posted around my house sometimes, and I also do vision boards to keep me focused on what it is I want to draw next in my life. (I have some amazing personal stories from vision boards as do many of my friends. It works.) I do aromatherapy, candles, flowers, healthy food with herbs grown in my garden, music, etc.

Abraham, while a channeled energy, very gently makes it clear that what we think about is what we get. (That was many years ago, now they are quite popular and more commercial, but the message is still there.) So does Wayne Dyer, Tut, and Louise Hay to name just a few. So it is so important to guide those thoughts to the future and focus on what we want next in life, and not dwell on anything in the past. I get a daily reminder via email from "Tut" which is fun, Abraham has one, too, and the yoga center I attended sends out a Daily Sutra. It's a good way to start the day and set a conscious tone. Sometimes I will put one on a Post It note if it really resonates and I know I need to work on that.

I would love to hear what is next for you, how you are doing, and what adventures you have planned as you continue with your new life.

Wishing you all the best!

Indigo
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:58 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Indigo » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:26 pm

Free My Soul:

I loved your post. It is inspiring and wonderful to hear how you have moved on, leaving the RSE experience in the past, to a new productive, happy life full of gratitude and compassion. Now, how could you go wrong with a focus like that? Gratitude is everything. Love it, you inspire me. Your email truly touched me and confirmed what I always felt I had found at first at RSE, and why I moved to Yelm, loving, kind, wise and compassionate souls searching for truth. And, we came out later knowing that the truth is inside us, not outside us. Funny that! A little karmic joke, perhaps.

Please, stay in touch as your journey unfolds. I love happy endings! A dear friend of mine, and old love, who taught Comparative Religions and Philosophy used to say "Into, through and out of." That is how I view RSE and many life learnings. The point is we tried, we endured, we emerged. Cheers! (Oops, perhaps cheers is a bad word choice, given the wine ceremonies that took place after I left.) To new adventures and learning, then! I applaud you.

Bravo,

Indigo

Indigo
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:58 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Indigo » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:52 pm

Another Dimension:

I agree with you. As I remember it, I found RD much different from RSE, when that began. Ramtha Dialogues was kinder, more encouraging. Do you remember the event in Yelm where we all made a huge Father's Day card and signed and gave it to Ram on Father's Day. We perceived him in that way then. Loving, sometimes demanding more of us, strict. Funny you mention The Gathering of Eagles....I honestly cannot recall if I was there or not, how's that for selective memory. But I sure remember that event taking place Was I an Eagle?? Dang, I don't remember.r. I know I didn't go to the event where he named Elohim, I think I was out of town visiting family. I missed out on being in the "first born" group. Oh well. I usually went to everything. I went to the second one where he named that group Ak Men Rah---I've forgotten how to spell it. We had the tee shirts with the rising sun and 7 stars I think it was. JZ came up with some good names, there, Gathering of Eagles. Wow.
I do recall JZ talking about liking Asti Spumoni (sp?) several times in events, I don't know how much or if she drank or if she drank. I remember her clearly complaining about Ram liking to drink and she disapproved. I was never in the inner circle of her friends, but did have close friends who worked for her for years and I occasionally heard stories. Nothing too dramatic. Some stories about Jeff leaving, and how sad he was, too. I was not at any RD events when they closed with wine, I think that was before my time. Listening to all of this, and seeing the shocking video yesterday makes me speculate that JZ has had a drinking problem she has struggled with for years. I never saw her appear to be drugged or drunk in any event when I was there, then, she seems to have slid down a slippery slope, so to speak, into some very ugly business. That video hurt my soul, it sounds crazy, but it was like going back to a place you had loved as a small child, perhaps a beautiful meadow or wooded glen that you treasured and spent many happy hours in, only to find it paved over with concrete and a big, ugly factory built or slaughter house on the site. Ugh. (time marches on, eh?) I am ok now, but it hurt yesterday to see that.

I threw out all my RD tapes and RSE literature except for the White Book (full of my notes) and Love Yourself into Life, when I left Yelm. It has been enjoyable and interesting and thought provoking exchanging posts with all of you. It sounds as if you. Another Dimension, were into Ram before I was, but we must have been in Yelm at the same time for some years. Those old names, Mike Ault, Glenn, Vicky Cady (is she still there in that office?), who was the lady who played the music at events, Beth? Dark, short curly hair. Dr. Joe. What a group of varied personalities. And JZ was the star.

I do have some fond memories of RD and RSE, then it no longer fit in my life and I (all of us?) left when the time was right Sold that hovel and all the supplies of wheat, rice and whatnot in the barrels we all had stashed away. I find it hard to imagine that there are still some of the same people out there, doing the same things, living like that all these years, and new beginners starting the RSE journey. I don't know about Boktau and the other new things. I did 3 or 4 Assay, as I recall and l left before Blue Body and the other things some talk about.

Wishing you the best,

Indigo

Indigo
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:58 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Indigo » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:51 pm

PS to Another Dimension

Ahhh, the dance of Ram you mention, I forgot to comment on that. What a day. Were you there the day Ram first did the dance? It was quite an amazing thing for me at the time. As I remember, he just started to dance without warning when we took a brief bathroom break in an event, right? I had no clue up until I read your posting it was Tai Chi...I've never studied that. My oh my. Live and learn. I just remember how majestic it all seemed when he/she did it, and then we (the lucky or chosen few thing, yet again) performed it the next week or at the next event for others to see, whichever it was. My oh my. I think your comments about the ocean of love you experienced and attributed to Ram, but were really from those who were there, seeking, is also are absolutely correct. That was an "aha" moment for me in your post as well. Thanks! I appreciate your knowledge and insight.

That also reminds me of another thing in an event, were you there when we first started the long, long, hours long, focus sessions on candles? I remember JZ/Ram put out big candles with the palm of her hand, just held it there for quite a while under the flame? I now wonder what she had in the palm of her hand to protect it. Growing suspicious, or is it growing wiser?.....LOL.

Have a good day.

Ambrosia
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:02 pm

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Ambrosia » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:23 pm

Hi Indigo,
I dont know if you will get this reply as it is over a year since you wrote your last comment.
I bought your wonderful little house on Elbow Lake Rd from the makeup lady who worked in Hollywood.
I owed it for 10 yrs ... She never really lived there full time.. I did. It was soo beautiful ...all the trees and the beautiful view of Mt Rainier. I heard of you through my best friend also her family had known your family when you and they had lived in Hawaii. The mother is no longer in RSE but the daughter (my best friend) is still very much a part of RSE. I no longer am and I have moved back to my country of origin. I regretably sold my beautiful little house and 5 acres that once belonged to you. It was the first house I ever own and I will always love and remember it.
I cam to RSE as a child and I remember the days you talkedd about where RSE was kind and supportive. I stayed for 20 yrs and I experienced the new harsh RSE and the wine ceromonies... I loved reading your posts and hearing about your life. When you described the property you had once had I immediately knew who you were and that we had shared the same house and land in common.. There were reminders of you everywhere and it was lovely to see and inherit what you had originally created... Even the cute little pump house with the generator! Much love and take care of your sweet self Adrian. I am glad you love the life that you now have <3

rhiannonj
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:13 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by rhiannonj » Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:06 am

Hi Indigo,

I like, yourself, was a part of RD and then later RSE and experienced the same things you did. I remember a different "Ramtha" that most know these days and I'm appalled at hearing about the abuse going on in this "so called" School these days.

I was at the Gathering of Eagles event. The arena was filled with energy. It was like a high that you didn't want to come down from. I too was a part of Ack Men Rah.. think we were named that at an event at Estes Park.

I attended an event back in 1987 in PA. Then later went to Yelm to attend a few events.. one of which was a Personal Day with Ram.. maybe 50 people or so. I remember "grandmother" was there. Ramtha went around to everyone and addressed their questions. When he came to me his/her eyes were so penetrating. I was hooked. Later on I went to Yucca Valley for an event, very small. Ram came up to me and hugged me and he stroked my back several times. I could feel some sort of energy going through my body. Afterwards, a friend came up to me and said something to the effect like, "you should've have seen what he was doing".

I moved to Yelm in 1988 right before the School started. I was a part of JZ's Horse Show. And if I recall, not much later the School started. It's a bit foggy now.

Later on I became a bit of the tight knit group. I published a local paper called Master Networks which helped people advertise etc. Then I later went on to publish the book "The Spinner of Tales". I was proud of that book. It was all about the Ram's stories and was brilliantly illustrated by a good friend. I remember the night it first came out. It was at an Assay, I'd say maybe summer of 1991. I was so excited. I went up the the Ram on the field and asked him to sign it. He didn't understand but Glen explained that I wanted his cartouche.. so he scribbled on my copy of my book.

Those were the days when we were camping out on "paradise beach". I remember one night.. the Ram was there and I jokingly said to him to tell us a bedtime story and he looked at me in disgust. Something was different.

That's when I began wondering. Something had changed but I couldn't put it into words.. I just knew something wasn't right. The Follow-up of 1992 was my last straw. My dad had suffered a stroke and was in the hospital in Olympia. I was on the Field and couldn't leave and all I could think about was my Dad. Well, when I got home later that weekend after the event I was in my bedroom with my window cracked open and a breeze came through. Ten minutes later Mom called and said my Dad had passed.

My times in Yelm were for the most part joyous, but that was back in the early days. I remember coming out of the Arena after an event and some of us would gather in the "smoking circle" and laugh.. it was like we were on a high. This was WAY before the wine ceremonies. I was never a part of them.

I was an early Ramster. Back in the days of Beverly Dietrick who produced those papers.. and later Love Yourself Into Life. Can't remember if that's her full name. Then there was the original Happy Hovel and so many other original establishments.

It hurts me so much to hear of the abuse that has gone on these past years. That's not the times I remember. Somebody needs to wake these people up to what JZ is really all about now!!

Megan, if you read this.. I am so very sorry hearing about your sister. She didn't deserve that treatment. She's now with the Angels.. and my Mom is one of them watching over her.

God bless and thanks for listening all.

Rhiannon

rhiannonj
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:13 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by rhiannonj » Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:30 am

Also want to say.. through Master Networks.. I got to know Jeff Knight somewhat. He advertised in my paper a few times. I was impressed with his smile and just an all around loving nature. RIP Jeff Knight

Tree
Posts: 974
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 12:31 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Tree » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:07 pm

rhiannonj-

you would never recognize RSE now from the Ahk Men Ra days ( I was as well).

it has escalated to something formerly unfathomable.

rhiannonj
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:13 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by rhiannonj » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:10 am

Tree,

After reading through some of these threads I can only imagine what is going on there now. It's so sad that JZ/R continually preys upon young people for her own selfish advantage. I am so thankful I got out when I did. I would've been horrified to witness some of what I've read here.

I sold the rest of my "Spinner of Tales" books to JZ. Tried to sell my business (Master Networks). That didn't pan out so I finally left in early summer 1994. Mom followed me back and moved in with her sister and niece. I lived in the Annapolis area for awhile and then in 1997 moved to Deale in a home that I rented and it was right on the shores of the Chesapeake Bay. Absolutely beautiful! Landlady died in 2004 and in 2006 Mom and I decided to buy a home further down in southern Maryland. She lived here with me all that time and I became her caregiver. Those are some of the most memorable times of my life. We laughed. We fought. We cried. We shared. The day she passed (Aug 17, 2011) I remember going into her bedroom and she was already up and sitting in her chair looking bright-eyed and bushy tailed. She looked better than she had in weeks. She motioned me over to her.. smiling, and said "I love you" and I said "I love you too Mom" and kissed her nose. I gave her her meds and went downstairs and got on my pc. Went back up a half hour later. She was dressed and sitting in her chair. I was so happy! But when I looked again she was slumped over in hair chair barely breathing. Called 911 and about a dozen paramedics came. They picked her small body up and put her on the floor to give her cpr. She was limp and I knew she was gone. They kept her alive for another week via machines. She passed away Aug. 23, 2011.

I don't know why I'm rambling on about all this. But I know I am so blessed with those final moments with her. She always called me her Angel, and now she's mine.

I was mom and dad's only daughter. I have 3 brothers. When I moved to Yelm in 1987, a year later they followed. Not for the school. They had visited WA before because my one brother lived there and loved the area. They settled down in Lacey in a beautiful home. But Dad wasn't well and the upkeep was too much so they moved into an apartment in Olympia. They knew of my involvement in the school and never once voiced any opinion about it and were open to listening about it, especially Dad. He always loved a deep conversation and we had many which I will always cherish. They had the grace and patience to let me live my own life. God bless them both for giving me that freedom. They even funded me with publishing my book "The Spinner of Tales"! Dad lived long enough to see it printed. He was so proud. I remember us all celebrating at Arnolds! God I miss that restaurant. :)

I'm still living in the home Mom and I bought and it's been 18 months since I paid the mortgage and somehow I've been able to keep going. I have two wonderful roommates. That's my only source of income. I just turned 60 and trying to find work is like.. well, nearly impossible. But every time something of a bit of a crisis comes up.. it always works out. Miracles do happen!

I have no regrets about being in the school. Maybe it's because it was before all this later BS happened. Anyways, I'm enjoying being a part of this forum and reading everyone's experiences during their time there.

Hugs,
Rhiannon (aka Debi Kerins)

Ockham
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:15 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Ockham » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:03 am

Hi Rhiannon,

Thanks about sharing the memories from your life, especially your time with your mom in Maryland.

What a difference there is from the Ramtha Dialogues time of the early 1980s described in this thread to the BS media machine that RSE has become now. It is sad to see the organization that seemed to have a lot of love and substance in the beginning transform to the money hungry me-too New Age cliché that RSE is now. The silly pseudo science and apocalypse obsession is such an incredible turn-off. Ms. Knight's alcohol fueled rants and encouragement of Prozac abuse only make it worse.

A prime example of the decay is the approximately 20 minute video that RSE itself posted on YouTube featuring Ms. Knight obviously very alcohol intoxicated, slurring her words, culminating in Knight proclaiming herself, "I am Ramtha, God of Egypt." I believe that bit of blasphemy would not please the Muslim inhabitants of the countries Ms. Knight is addressing. I find it stunning that RSE would be so thick-headed to post a video that casts itself such a bad light. Syria is now a huge humanitarian disaster: a lot of good Uncle Ramtha did there, no? So be it.

rhiannonj
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:13 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by rhiannonj » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:19 am

Ockham,

I did a search on youtube and could only find a vid called Multiverses in 2012. Is that the vid you're referring to? Don't know what JZ/R is babbling about but found it funny when asked "how many of you understand" and there was no response. LMAO. Duh. Where is JZ getting this stuff from?? And people are buying into this!!?? What in the world is she talking about!! OMG... it's the doomsday stuff about Dec 21, 2012. Oh,, woops, JZ, don't you mean Dec 22, 2012? I managed to watch the whole vid and laughed and shook my head. I bet she's gonna make a big deal out of that meteor that hit Russia recently. That should be interesting. :P

She looks horrible and definitely seems intoxicated. Wonder how much longer she'll be able to go on with this.. but I'd be willing to bet Greg Simmons or Ledwith will take over.

This is the youtube vid I'm referring to. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJOKOJYV ... 9Q&index=2

Rhiannon

Sunshine
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:51 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Sunshine » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:13 am

I'm sorry, but I thought Ledwith was being hunted down for child abuse? Did they not find him? Or was he not found guilty? Please don't tell me he got away...

User avatar
David McCarthy
Site Admin
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:09 am
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:26 am

Here ya go Sunshine....
yes he got away...and set up shop in RSE as one of JZK's 'handlers'... > :evil: <

(EMF) Online Forum • View topic - Miceal Ledwith
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1064&hilit=Ledwith
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

Ockham
Posts: 790
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:15 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by Ockham » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:27 am

Hi Rhiannon,

This is the video I wrote about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbleQv1e0-8

I am surprised RSE hasn't taken the video down because the video has attracted a lot of criticism for how culturally unaware it is and how drunk Judy Knight is.

That would be a hoot seeing Simmons trying to pull off being a Ramtha channel. Simmons is such a dweeb!

rhiannonj
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:13 am

Re: When did RSE start the abuse and drinking?

Unread post by rhiannonj » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:54 am

Hi Ockham,

I've seen that vid before! I wonder if those peeps in the audience realized afterwards how they look like a bunch of drunken fools, not to mention JZ herself. She's more than drunk!! She sure doesn't hold her liquor well. Like you said, I'm surprised that video is still up on youtube. If she had an ounce of dignity left in her she would bow out gracefully. Unfortunately, she loves being in control and raking in $$s for her own selfish needs.

As I watched the vid I scanned the audience and didn't see anyone that I recognized. Hopefully they woke up and left and have found their way to these boards.

What an awful way to represent these beautiful songs.

LMAO.. Greg Simmons a dweeb. You're being a bit polite... hehe. I always thought he was full of himself.

Rhiannon

P.S. As a side note... I watched a vid she did back in Sept 2012 where she talked about the upcoming elections. Very interesting. I hate to say this but I have to agree with what she was trying to get across, and that is simply to get out and vote and become aware of the parties platform. Gotta admit, she had me chuckling at times. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2uR08tvatE

Post Reply

Return to “Student Deaths. Suicide Prevention Resources Abuse at RSE.”