Child abuse at RSE The Tank...a disturbing experience

Experiences with physical, mental and emotional forms of abuse by JZ Knight-Ramtha, RSE Staff, About student deaths.
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David McCarthy
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Child abuse at RSE The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by David McCarthy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:17 am

A disturbing experience I encountered while in the RSE human maze also known as "The Tank"!

There was a small child I would estimate about eight years old in the tank desperately crying in terror for help that everyone was sheepishly ignoring... including myself.
After all, the RSE indoctrination's were such that even wee children created their reality, and besides
the all powerful and seeing 'Ramtha' would protect the child amidst the hundreds of 'hissings' C & E bodies crushed against each other!
But the child's cry snapped me out of my stupor, and despite the RSE rules not offer assistance to anyone in distress I searched blindly until I found the terrified child curled up in a ball in a corner.
I protected him from being trampled and pushed others aside from us both getting trampled while calling out for help.
Eventually a terse sounding voice ordered me to "re-focus master" and the child was pulled from my arms and taken away. To this day I do not know if it was a boy or girl.
When I left the tank that day I was still confused as to if I had done the right thing in helping the child such was the level of my 'assimilation' into the dehumanizing state of mind control I had been reduced to at RSE.
Yes..very small CHILDREN were in the tank, also the elderly, the sick and pregnant women.

When we as RSE students have become so convinced that "Ramtha" knows best! even to the point of ignoring the cries of a terrified child in an abusive environment then the nightmare scenario of the drinking of "Cult Kool-Aid" at RSE is neither so farfetched nor unlikely. In fact, as this example shows the recipe is being prepared by JZ /R.
Meanwhile it business as usual at RSE Inc. :sad:
David.
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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littlewiseone
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Unread post by littlewiseone » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:40 am

I don't think you have any doubts anymore, but just in case:


You Did The Right Thing!!!


:)
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make...

- The Beatles

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:03 am

Hi littlewiseone....

Perhaps...
I robbed that little one of the abuse it needed to experience to evolve...
It was all planned on "The Plane of Bliss"...don't you know that?
Hey...
Did someone just turn out the light?

very dark chuckle...

David.
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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The Tank...

Unread post by David McCarthy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:18 am

From the Original EMF forum link...

The Tank

http://pub43.bravenet.com/forum/3633497066/show/605122


********************************


Christel



Feb 13, 07 - 2:23 PM Re: the tank

The tank is a labyrinth. It is made of a reinforced vinyl material on sections of metal frame. The sections are bolted together. The walls are 8 foot high. The walls have secret openings in them and ladders going over them. It is built in a section of paddock that was right near some wooden horse shelters. These are also a part of it. There are also drainage pipes in there above the ground that people crawl through as part of the maze. These are referred to as "worms." In some Tank exercises ther have also been bales of hay in there.

I think the maze was originally called "the tank" as it was a small circular maze that looked rather like a rainwater tank.

The whole thing is quite large. Over 1000 people can be in there at the same time. Part of the tank actually is on the edge of a forest on the property of JZ Knight. Years ago I was at an event and Ramtha stated that part of the tank was underground (at that time).

Students are blindfolded either in a paddock some distance away, or years ago we were blindfolded in the forest. Duct tape is put over the blinders so students cannot cheat. The object is firstly to find the tank blindfolded from the starting location using the methodology described by Ramtha. Then the object is to find the entrance. This can take hours as the entrance is not the most obvious.......it can be a very small entrnace in the outer shell or you may have to crawl through it on your belly.

After entering the object is to find the "void", the end of the maze ....not necessarly the central point.
All this is to be done with hands in the Consciousness and Energy position without touching the walls with your hands or feet.

The idea is to find your way completely to the void from your starting location through the discipline of focus instead of a reasoning process of analytical thinking.

Ramtha and RSE staff are on top of the tank walking on scaffolding and watching below. Sometimes when someone is supposedly "focussed" the staff will briefly open a panel to let the focussed person through.

To say it is a battlefield in there is an understatement. I have been in those "worms" that had a crossroad......four tubes meeting head on and four lots of people all endeavouring to go the way of those coming towards them........
A near death experience to say the least. Hot, stuffy and no one able to move.

At one event I attended someone climbing over the walls (blindfolded) shattered her knee. She was screaming in agony. People push one another or there is simply not room in some situations. There are dead ends in there with lots of people trying to get in. There are narrow passageways with lots of people. If one transcends the part where lots of people are collected then one can be in an area with relatively few people.

In the early days Ramtha said the tank was designed like levels of consciouness that he describes.......the areas with lots of people were the first three seals and then the relatively free areas were the higher seals.

The tank was not used for some years for reasons unknown to me. Some people thought the authorities shut it down. It reopened at Assay 6 in 2005.
maryann



Feb 13th, 2007 - 2:36 PM Re: the tank

thanks christel - I keep hearing bits and pieces, but that's close to my interpretation. and the Consciousness and Energy position is what? between the pearls before swine excuse, and fear of retaliation it's often difficult to separate facts from emotions, let alone flat out lies.
Email: maryanross@aol.com

whatchamacallit



Feb 13th, 2007 - 3:12 PM Re: the tank

the c&e position is a way one holds their hands in front of them. in the tank, one is supposed to maintain that position and not "cheat" by touching/feeling any walls, etc. however, i think most people, if honest, have felt walls/openings at least some of the time. it's almost hard not to, as if the person in front of you suddenly bends over, you can just about be sure they are going through some sort of opening. of course you'll try it with your HAND before trying it with your HEAD ! hahaha

at its best, the tank can have a very few people in it, and only go on for a short time - maybe an hour or two.

at its worst, it is HOT and HUMID outside, and students can number 1,000 or more, and be left in the tank for up to 10 or more hours with NO food, drink or bathrooms. people get hurt in there all the time. women get groped by men who take advantage of nobody being able to see who they are.

"ramtha" has had to address this to the audience, telling women that if a man gropes them, slug him. that's a lot of help - AFTER you've already been groped, and there is no saying it won't happen again.

people have urinated and defecated in the tank. who knows what one is wading through when crawling on their belly, as christel described, through the "worms".

i know a student who had a really bad allergic reaction to the hay. that student sat down in a corner to try and be able to breathe, and was knocked, kicked, pushed and pulled. finally a staff person came to the student and asked if they were alright. they said NO, they were having a bad asthma attack from the hay. the staff helped the person to stand up, held their hand for a little ways, and let go ! left them there.

children have gotten broken bones in the tank, being in there, stepped on, etc., just like the adults.

there are students who have gotten "special help" in the tank by staff. doors that are not opened for most students, are opened to these special students. it was always a note of interest to me, that most of the students who made it to the void in the tank, were the "high profile" ones, to begin with. not a lot of the "regular students" made it, and if they did, it wasn't very consistent.

"ramtha" has admitted to the entire audience that some students do get helped into the void.

it's just a bunch of nonsense. there are "labyrinths" all over the U.S.A. that are delightful, calming experiences to walk through - usually graced in simplicity and greenery. natural, not green plastic walls.

for a number of years, the tank was shut down off limits. at that time, the teachings changed and students were told that it was the "new" disciplines that were the most rigorous and NOT the tank, because one had to master their mind/thoughts. they had to create by their mind, not walk the tank with their body.

now again, it has switched back and as christel said, in august 2005, the tank reopened for that event, although i have not heard that it's been used since then. it may have been that one event. just to stir up the pot a bit. a lot of people were not happy it reopened. there is an air of dread amongst most students about the tank.

so there you have it .... the tank !
Email: emailwhatchamacallit@yahoo.com

DanceTheWind/AnnMarie Parson



Feb 13th, 2007 - 3:23 PM Re: the tank

Re: Jan 21st another thread on The Tank. Also it was used twice for the Assay event in 2006.
Email: michaelannmarie@msn.com

Christel



Feb 13th, 2007 - 7:20 PM Re: the tank

Whatcha is correct.

I have personally been in the tank for periods between 6 and 10 hours. Usually there are a couple of Porta Potties some distance away. I would conclude not everyone can find them. Some people think they are a secret entranceway into the tank when they cannot find another entrance.

When we were let go in the woods in the early 90's.A friend of mine was stuck in a blackberry bush for 7 hours.
On another occasion a person I knew got stung by European Wasps (Americans call them bees...though they are not the normal honey bee).

We were told to turn around if we hit a wire fence (the boundary fence). One person did not (perhaps they could not understand the language....it happens).
They went under the fence and up 93rd St. (the street that goes into the student entrance) They were set upon by someone's Rottweiler.....still blindfolded; hands in C and E position....... The neighbour did not like JZ...........

I read in an article in Spectrum magazine (only back copies available) that someone got a detached retina. I think it was actually a member of staff. She had been sliding through one of those low entrances and someone in the crowd stood on her head.

At one event I attended it was stated at the end of the session by the Masterbuilders that a very overweight lady was on the roof of the horse shelters heading for the edge.......

No one knew how she climbed onto the roof....

I forgot to mention there is no talking in the tank either. The people who make it to the void (not very many) usually get some sort of food when they get there. I was told by someone who made it that fried chicken was on the menu on that occasion.

For a children's Tank they had them focus on a can of Coke instead of the void.
Cowboy



Feb 13th, 2007 - 8:25 PM Re: the tank

The tank was intended as a test of the student's ability to hold a steady focus through chaos and adversity. Once a group was "taped" (blinders taped to face with duct tape to ensure no peaking, and yes, it did hurt to pull it off when the test was over) the rules of the tank were reviewed and the test began from wherever you were. The rules of the tank are: no talking, always keep your hands in the "C&E" position, do not remove your blinders until you are told to do so, focus on the void.
So the first thing to do is get to the tank, the next thing to do is get inside and the last thing is to get to the void. Hours later, some or many people will have never arrived at the tank much less an entrance. They will be wandering around in the woods or large grassy area surrounding the tank. Some people will find an entrance into the tank but get spit back out again by taking a wrong turn. Once you get into the tank there are rooms of all different sizes and different ways to get from room to room. For example, you might crawl through a "worm" (plastic tunnels 3' diameter) or you might climb a ladder, one time there was a vertical rope ladder and another time I climbed through an opening made in bales of hay. There may be a window in a wall or a door which opens and closes.
Cowboy



Feb 13th, 2007 - 8:34 PM Re: the tank

Now imagine doing all of this blindfolded along with hundreds of other people. In these conditions, the tank really does test one's ability to concentrate under adverse conditions. When you come to a door, you might not want to go through because it may lead back to where you came from. The tank is a fantastic teacher in the sense that it reveals to a person what their propensities are under pressure. It also is an opportunity to learn emotional control. There were times when I thought I was going to suffocate or be crushed and I had to force my body to stay calm in order to get out of there.
whatchamacallit



Feb 13th, 2007 - 8:40 PM Re: the tank

Cowboy said, "There were times when I thought I was going to suffocate or be crushed and I had to force my body to stay calm in order to get out of there. "

Cowboy, I remember one time, years ago, when there was a crowd of people near the "doorway" to the tank, pushing and shoving. Ramtha was overhead, and he yelled to the students, "Welcome to the gates
of h-e-l-l."

Uh huh. That about sums it all up.

Email: emailwhatchamacallit@yahoo.com

Cowboy



Feb 13th, 2007 - 8:40 PM Re: the tank

I never encountered nor heard any reports of groping, urination or feces. How you handled yourself in every single moment was the most revealing part of the test and the learning was intense for anyone willing to honestly look at him/herself. The tank was harder then hell and my greatest teacher.
journeythroughramthaland



Feb 13th, 2007 - 8:49 PM Re: the tank

" The tank is a fantastic teacher in the sense that it reveals to a person what their propensities are under pressure. It also is an opportunity to learn emotional control. There were times when I thought I was going to suffocate or be crushed and I had to force my body to stay calm in order to get out of there."

Come on, really, just pay a couple of bucks and go for a ride on a NYC subway at rush hour in the summer!
Email: inkblocked@yahoo.com

M. McMillan



Feb 13th, 2007 - 10:10 PM Re: the tank

Hi all -- If you want to find out how you respond under pressure & learn to control emotions, there's no place like an operating room or emergency room. I worked in an operating room as a nurse for 14-1/2 yrs. I had already mastered focus under pressure & going long hours. I realize now I never needed to experience any of this in RSE, as I had experienced & mastered these things in that atmosphere, especially if there was a cardiac arrest or severe trauma. Thank my God that I no longer choose to put myself through that. M.
onehandontheelephant



Feb 14th, 2007 - 1:10 AM Re: the tank

Cowboy and others who have experienced the tank, please talk about this:

If you were in the tank, mastering yourself and all that, and you could hear that someone near you was in real trouble (like that lady with the shattered knee or the person having the asthma attack), were you supposed to ignore them and just focus on your own mastery? Were any instructions given to you about at least asking others if they wanted to be helped?

Do we have any posters on this site who have been through military boot camp and who would be willing to share their thoughts on just what the tank teaches vs. what basic training teaches?

If the tank is the path to higher growth, anyone wonder why Jesus didn't teach such methods?

Perhaps true mastery of self in the tank would be ripping off the blindfold to help a fellow human being with a broken leg or having that asthma attack... In other words, DEMONSTRATING LOVE!!!

Ever heard of stories from the Special Olympics like the disabled child who had struggled so hard to reach the finish line but just before he would have won, he went back to help another child? Now THAT is a demonstration of PURE LOVE, which is what Ramtha used to teach.

Now, it's apparently ok to step on someone else's head in the tank, as long as you reach the Void. It seems to me that the tank was/is DE-VOID of love, devoid of oneness, devoid of the teaching to "behold God."
onehandontheelephant



Feb 14th, 2007 - 2:00 AM Re: the tank

To add to what M. McMillan said regarding the tank ("If you want to find out how you respond under pressure & learn to control emotions..."), here are some other suggestions for doing something that would actually accomplish some useful purpose in the world:

Nearly every community is in dire need of volunteer fire fighters, and every year lots of people are needed to control forest fires. Instead of spending all those hours blindfolded in the tank in an artificial-mastery type of situation, why not learn to go into smoke-filled, burning buildings and save people? My brother did this for many years, and I'm so proud of him for demonstrating REAL MASTERY!

There are lots of other ways that people master their fears and develop their abilities under REAL pressure--just think of paramedics, search and rescue personnel, Doctors Without Borders, ER docs, Red Cross, police, military, or join one of the many organizations that help people in Third World countries, which can be pretty dangerous places. People who teach in inner-city schools right here in the U.S. also master real-life fears and pressures. I could go on, but you get the idea...
Marching on within



Feb 14th, 2007 - 2:04 AM Re: the tank

well said!!!! onehandontheelephant - I agree with you - I have never done the tank - didn't care much for field work - and it wasn't that I didn't find my cards because I always did but I felt it was awful that people would slam into one another, step on feets and get hurt just to find some silly card - sounds like a discipline "to erase all feelings for others" to me.
farm girl



Feb 14th, 2007 - 6:34 AM Re: the tank

Wow!!!The tank has value, from what I am reading. However, It should be a safe place to grow, and safe is not in place. yelm is full of large parcels of open land, someone could make a tank, make it safe. Reading about the person in the blackberry bush, for 7 hours. My hat is off to her, 1 hour of that, and my inner voice would of said, blind fold off, I am out of Dodge. Re: groping in the tank, lucky for the groper, that there were no martial arts students near them, because they would lose an eye for sure. Those trained in martial arts, are trained to react when in danger. When the safe tank in Yelm is ready, let me know. thanks
whatchamacallit



Feb 14th, 2007 - 6:55 AM Re: the tank

Yeah ! Excellent points. As with many things in RSE, it seems to boil down to where one is coming from. Service to yourSELF or learing for yourself while also loving others, not using others as stepping stones through your life to trod upon.

I had never thought about field work in the way mentioned above...as a training to shut down feelings about others. It makes sense, too.

The teachings, not in the early years, changed to where students were told that others created their own bad news if they experienced any, and to pay them no mind, and only focus on yourself/your own dreams. Also, to TRANSCEND YOUR EMOTIONAL BODY. If that's not a clear message to shut down your heart, what is ?

Even to the point, students were told to focus on the dreams they wanted, WITHOUT emotion. Every other manifestation material I have ever read, says the opposite - to FEEL it.

Interesting points on this thread - thanks ! Good food for thought.
Email: emailwhatchamacallit@yahoo.com

Cowboy



Feb 14th, 2007 - 7:05 AM Re: the tank

An aerial view of the tank can be seen at www.mapquest.com. Type in RSE's address: 14507 Yelm Hwy SE, WA, 98597. After the map appears, click on "aerial view."
Cowboy



Feb 14th, 2007 - 7:19 AM Re: the tank

Hello One Hand,
Your question is insightful, "Were any instructions given to you about at least asking others if they wanted to be helped?"
The instruction was "no talking" but that did not prevent me from assisting someone who apparently needed help. And I did help people. For me a large part of the test was to observe how indoctrinated I was/am to automatically follow the instructions of "authority" rather than think for myself.
Christel



Feb 14th, 2007 - 7:22 AM Re: the tank

Ramtha has told women that if they were groped then they had his permission to "punch the lights out" of the groper.

I have not observed that any mastery of the tank has any value in translating into every day life. Audrey and Joe Dispenza were both regularly on stage in the early 90's as having got to the void.

At an event I attended Ramtha said there was an underground portion of the tank and that you could perish in there. Only those that made it to the above ground void were permitted in there. It was stated that Audrey was put in there but had to be pulled out due to exhaustion.
DanceTheWind/AnnMarie Parson



Feb 14th, 2007 - 8:00 AM Re: the tank

Re: Onehand
I was in the US Air Force boot camp in '76, I was 17 at the time. From what I remember although it was a challenge and stressful it was more of A TEAM EFFORT. I suppose the ultimate goal being that we would need to hold up under war-time conditions and still function as a co-hesive group. Certainly being able (willing) to follow orders was mandatory (and understandable) as everyones safety would ultimately depend on EVERYONES safety.
I actaully looked forward to doing the tank, felt I could see some advantages to undergoing such a "dicipline" etc. AND learned alot in the hideous experience of it... BUT as I talked about in my previous post on the same subject I TRULY felt the whole thing got way outta hand in regards to the staff (angels they called themselves?????!!!) and the manner in which the whole thing went down. At the end of it the whole thing reminded me of abuse, PERIOD.
Years ago I did a high ropes course, and I am NOT a big "adrenelin rush" kinda gal).There were about 30 of us in the course that day, it was scary, I cried alot, but I LEARNED WHILE on the course to just keep going, slowly at my own pace. We all treated eachother as BEINGS, as everyone had their own issues to work thru. I was the 2nd to the last person to make it thru and I INTIGRATED the learning AS I WENT thru it. It was wonderful and I am no longer afraid of hieghts.
"Pressure" doesnt have to include abuse, insults, lies, unsafe practices, etc. The most hideous part of all of this is (to me) since the students at these events are their by their own choice, one could assume that they already have a DESIRE to grow, to then treat them as though they are stupid ***holes, is some kind of (VERY VERY VERY) TWISTED crap.
Email: michaelannmarie@msn.com

Cowboy



Feb 15th, 2007 - 7:09 AM Re: the tank

Hello Watcha,
I was interested to read your comment about transcending the emotional body and shutting down the heart. I understood the emotional body teaching to consist of developing an awareness (the observer) of my emotional state to the point where I am free to make a choice about how I want to act instead of acting compulsively.

Although I encountered this teaching at RSE the original work was done by Dr. Candace Pert who clinically demonstrated that emotions are "nothing more" than chemical reactions in the body. Until I understood that, I believed "my emotions are me."
Not so.

And that is what made the tank a great teacher - it generated intense emotion which I had to mentally separat myself from while acknowledging its presence. From there I was freer to make a choice instead of acting out "knee jerk" behavior. From that vantage, I saw over and over again how indoctrinated my thinking was and it shocked me.
DanceTheWind/AnnMarie Parson



Feb 15th, 2007 - 8:58 AM Re: the tank

Re: Cowboy
Thanks, what you mention in regards to intense emotion and being in the tank, is very valuable. I know during my "experience" in the tank, as with the ropes course I mentioned above, that I was working thru emotional states that were not based in the reality of the moment.
And thanks for pointing out where the original information on that "teaching" came from.
I do feel that the tank could be a great dicipline, but as someone on this thread mentioned earlier, it also seems as though the credibility of the dicipline gets lost when those "attending" (as in staff, etc.) the tank are acting out and not really in alignment with the purpose of the disipline.
Email: michaelannmarie@msn.com

whatchamacallit



Feb 15th, 2007 - 1:16 PM Re: the tank

Cowboy,

First of all, let me say that I'm glad for you that the tank was a worthwhile learning experience for you. I see it differently for myself. I did learn something from it, as I would learn something from many of life's experiences - not just those at RSE. But as has been pointed out by several people, the ends don't justify the means, and the MISuse of what could be a good learning tool for those who choose it, is where it's no longer alright with me.


I have something to share re: your comments: "I was interested to read your comment about transcending the emotional body and shutting down the heart. I understood the emotional body teaching to consist of developing an awareness (the observer) of my emotional state to the point where I am free to make a choice about how I want to act instead of acting compulsively."

IN the earlier days of the teachings, we were taught, when manifesting, to use all of our senses when focusing about something. So, if for example, we were focusing on a loaf of bread, we should see it from all angles, hear ourself crunching into a bite, smell it's delightful aroma, feel it in our hands...you see? Also, to FEEL it...the joy of eating it. So, we were told to emotionalize the creation, too.

We were also told we could create ANYTHING we wanted. Not one person was so special that they could not create ANYTHING they wanted. No exceptions.


Later on, it changed. We were told we had to bypass our emotions, altogether and that we only "knew" repetetive, first 3 seal emotions, which were in duality and we had to get over that. We were to avoid emotions when focusing. To wait until a manifestation arrived before feeling the emotion from the joy of receiving it.

The teaching went so far as to tell us we don't even know what love is ! Well, fine. Ramtha can say that, but I don't "buy" it. It doesn't mean it's true (for me).

Yes, to develop an awareness of our emotional state (as you said), is part of it, too. But we were also told that our emotions are nothing more than chemicals, so we shouldn't trust them, as they can't BE trusted. I disagree with that, also. I think there are times when we can/should trust them and others when we can't/shouldn't. To pigeonhole ALL of our human emotions into one category isn't what I think is accurate (speaking for myself, of course).

I do understand your points about the tank. I assume that because you were/are sincere in wanting to grow/evolve, you did your level best in the tank as I did, too. As many/most of us did.

But in looking back on it, I can use the following analogy: I do not have to taste dill pickles to know that ice cream is sweet. I don't believe I need to experience things like the tank at all, in order for myself to evolve. I will evolve, because I am sincere in heart and want to, and make it my business to evaluate myself and hone my strengths and get myself back in line where I am weak. That's just my choice.

Thanks for sharing
Email: emailwhatchamacallit@yahoo.com

Christel



Feb 17th, 2007 - 6:22 PM Re: the tank

I know someone.....a 60 year old lady.....who urinated in her clothing due to a prolongued blindfolded experience and she could not find the latrines. I cannot remember if it was during a tank session but it WAS one of those Blue College intiations where they were blindfoled for days. This lady had a toilet in her tent. It was sort of like a food storage bucket with a seat on top and a screw lid that could close it.

One night she could not find her tent and staff did not assit her to find it thus she slept on the grass with only light clothing...a T shirt.

Ramtha stated at Assay 6 that three people teleported during a tank session. One teleported from outside of the tank to somewhere near the entry. Another teleposted from within the tank to a place much further within and the third supposedly teleported from outside the tank onto one of the worms....they were looking for the entrance. Has anyone viewing this site ever observed someone else teleporting?
whatchamacallit



Feb 17th, 2007 - 7:59 PM Re: the tank

Christel,

I recall that when a student claimed to have seen something along that line, that students were told by staff that ONLY certain people had the authority to verify a teleportation experience. STudents were not included in that level of authority - only some staff people were.

The person who claimed to have seen something, whatever it was, was effectively silenced.

That's not a direct answer to your question, but it may shed some light on the situation.

Whatcha
Email: emailwhatchamacallit@yahoo.com

Bliss



Apr 9th, 2007 - 7:16 PM Re: the tank

I was in the tank in summer of 2006. I was just healing from a near death experience. I was in the beginers tank and was one of the beginers who passed to the void and was invited back to the NONE Beginers tank the next day. Apparently it was the hardest tank ever created for that event. Lets just say - i cried alot that day. :laughs:

I was kicked, pushed, stepped on, cursed, growled at, smacked, shoved onto the ground, trapped against the walls among MANY other things. Actually, that day they forgot to tell the advanced group to remove their jewelry, and a good friend of mine got her wedding ring caught on one of the laders when she dropped down. She's one finger shy of a full set now. (yes, really.) they never even offered to pay for her medicals bills, AFTER they admitted whole heartedly that they were at fault since they FORGOT to tell people to remove jewelry. James toasted her at the wine ceramony that night while she was in the hospital having what was left of her finger removed. APologized for his mistake the next day when she and her wife arrived to pick up her belongings - and still, they didnt pay for her medical bills. That to me was quite shocking. Oh, i should also mention, she was one ladder away from the void (and her gold coin) when this happened to her.

For me, the tank was an awesome experience, same for my friend with her missing finger. We both learned a helluva lot that event, and i would do it again, personally. Even when i was in so much pain i was on the ground crying and begging for it to be over. :laughs: It was a worth while experience, and i felt a lot of accomplishment.

ALl that said, i also want to second my agreement with a few of the folks who talked about how we SHOULD have been told to help people who were crying/screaming/wheezing or in obvious distress. We should have been instructed to Help Small people on the ground get up (children) or just put small people in a completely seberate tank (which they did last year when i was there.) While the idea is really fantastic, it was missing some very basic teaching on caring for your ENVIROMENT as if it was YOU - which includes the folks who happen to be in your present enviroment.

So, i loved the tank despite its harsh attributes, but i do agree that they should have taken quite a bit more precautions for safety in the tank with folks, small people etc. :shrugs: Just my two cents, for what its worth.

Bliss
GUILT2GUILTNOMORE



Apr 13th, 2007 - 11:17 PM Re: the tank

'the teachings, not in the early years, changed to where students were told that others created their own bad news if they experienced any, and to pay them no mind'

Sounds to be directly from the old caste system in the east. You feel no thing toward the less fortunate for it is THEIR 'karma' from a past life. I never ever would've been able to walk by the 250 injured in the field after both sides of 500 ran toward the others. No sympathy, nothing? Is that what Jesus taught? And Ramtha(copyright)/Judy claim to have taught Jesus? I refuse to give up my concern for others. Addiction? No. I know it is not so. Is helping someone not making known the unknown? There are many manners of helping, a constant making known the unknown. Under pressure? I worked intensive care units where people were helicoptered in. Grateful to say I was never in the tank. The labyrinths of the eastern worlds are so much more peaceful and contemplative. Oh my heck, I KNOW I can handle pressure. Raised children and shocked people when their hearts stopped. When I help otherwise, it is done anonymously whenever possible, and that's the end of it. But I will never walk by another in need of medical attention or in need of the dignity of their God. Call it a judgment, but I believe it's CRUELTY to ignore in the circumstances described. We are not androids. This cannot be an ascended master, or if so, shall we continue to wreak havoc upon the others in this world via war? Is that not what he/she speaks of? At least be consistent, one ought demand. I believe the entity is gone, for a master, even one who likes wine and smoking is fine by me, but was critical of human intolerance and subjugation. How is this tank and injured people behavior any different? Or, was the entity looking for those who did not follow everyone else? Even so, the methods are contrary to our humanity. Are we to forget what being human means? Sure we fight. But we ALSO HELP. And if being human means ripping off blinders to aid someone, then what exactly is divinity? Standing on a roof and watching people become injured? Jesus healed those who believed he could. How can I even believe this at this point! Let's all jump out of the sandbox.
Email: ramyana_sita@yahoo.com

David McCarthy



Apr 14th, 2007 - 3:25 AM Re: the tank

G2G?

You have touched upon many of the controversial aspects of RSE with thoughtfulness and compassion.
During my time in RSE most of us believed we were once in ?Ramtha?s? army, that we were once again embarking on a great march.. But this time it was a march into enlightenment, we were taught there were going to be ?casualties?? and much like a battlefield? we kept marching.. Believing that those that fell would be taken care of,
They Were Not.
The tank is an instrument of deprivation to exhausts the participants physically, mentally and emotionally thereby weakening their ability for critical thinking, while increasing suggestibility while in an exhaustive state, a common technique of mind control.
A former RSE staff member described to me how Judith would instruct him to assist certain students via a radio receiver connected to his earpiece,.
Panels were moved aside to allow entry to the void for certain ?Focused Students?
I remember a common ?Ramtha? statement at the time was?
To be in one's humanity was a limitation?
What kind of teacher would encourage us to abandon our humanity?
If we allow our humanity to be stripped away? we become weak and addicted to the next ?spiritual? fix that further wreaks havoc and heartbreak in our lives,
all the while.. Our lives are harvested to serve as sustenance for the overlord.
Now I understand this much,
Life is the spiritual experience?
And enlightenment is simply the ability to love.
No big secret really?to be Hue man

Chuckle

David
Email: LARSE@fairpoint.net

Christel



Apr 14th, 2007 - 4:44 AM Re: the tank

I personally know two people who got broken noses in those episodes where students were told to run at one another blindfolded on the name field.
Christel



Apr 14th, 2007 - 1:46 PM Re: the tank

Doesn't the way we treat others boil down to how we would wish to be treated under like conditions?
What is confusing to many people is they cannot distinguish between being "nice" and being honest.

A typical example is participating in things are are uninteresting from one's own viewpoint for the reason of perceived obligation.

"Nice" people wear a mask they present to others. Honesty does away with the mask.

It is honest to participate in things that bring joy according to one's own viewpoint. If the UNDERLYING joy is absent it becomes obligation.

Would the teacher like to be treated the way of some of the exhibition at RSE ?


The Tank

http://pub43.bravenet.com/forum/3633497066/show/605122
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

Another Dimension60
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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:39 am

One of the epiphanies in the process of leaving JZ's world was that going to the tank was "social consciousness"!! I sat in my car - smoked, ate, slept, read - it was the most joyous 'tank' experience and day at the Ranch I ever had!! It was my last event.
I learned some incredible lessons in the tank - including, don't crawl into a tube that smelled -- the smell of fear, the smell of stuckness.
Even though I found my way "to the void" (and how stupid is that concept - how can focusing on the void which is everywhere by definition, be a specific location in a specific area?) - and even though I got to walk proudly out of the "center" holding Linda Evans hand, I'm certain it was always "fixed".

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xindy
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Re: The Tank

Unread post by xindy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:18 pm

David McCarthy wrote:A disturbing experience I encountered in the RSE Labyrinth, also known as ?The Tank? . There was a small child in the tank crying that everyone was sheepishly ignoring, including myself.. :cry:
After all..the RSE indoctrinations were such that even children create their reality,
and the all powerful "Ramtha" would protect the child amidst the hundreds of "hissings' C & E bodies?!
But it snapped me out of my stupor, I searched blindly until I found a terrified child curled up in a ball.
I protected him from being trampled and called out for help..eventually a terse sounding voice ordered me to "focus master"... and the child was taken out. To this day I do not know if it was a boy or girl...When I left the tank that day I was still confused as to if I had done the right thing in helping the child, such was the level of my "assimilation" into RSE. Yes..CHILDREN were in the tank, also the elderly, the sick and pregnant women.

When RSE ?students? become so convinced that ?Ramtha" knows best? even to the point of ignoring the cries of a child in an abusive environment., Then the ?drinking the ?Kool-Aid"..! is neither so farfetched nor unlikely. David.
Whoa...David you still had some emotions in you that even JZ/R couldn't suppress. What a wonderful thing you did! You have my eternal admiration for this (going against the rules) action.

With every post I read, I want to learn more about the abusive exercises RSE demands of its members. Even though, I must admit, it scares the shite out of me. Is there anything more abusive than the TANK?

God Bless You Valiant Man!
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

California Dreamin'
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THE FOREST

Unread post by California Dreamin' » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:01 pm

Why no mention of "The Forest?"

Different experience than the tank, but certainly a whole new type of abuse :twisted:

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xindy
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Re: The Tank...

Unread post by xindy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:09 pm

David McCarthy wrote:the Original EMF forum link...

The Tank

http://pub43.bravenet.com/forum/3633497066/show/605122
Thank You so much for this link. I have been searching & searching all forums & the old EMF forum for information about what the TANK actually is. I was lucky enough to read about some ex-RSE's about their personal experiences inside the tank but this link hit the Jackpot for me.

This is by far the most frightening & unbelievable exercise perpetrated by JZ/Ramtha. She achieved her goal by telling everyone entering the tank to focus on the void, don't speak, don't remove the blindfold, etc. & the RSE members ignored cries for help...Oh how happy JZ/Ramtha must have been when looking down on a bunch of ants carrying out her/his/its orders & to become "Rambots."
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:20 pm

California Dreamin'
a whole new type of abuse Twisted Evil
so very true.

A former staff member who manned the tank told me how he would receive direct instructions from Judith as to who
was to "make it to the void" via a secret door he would open for them.
The forest "initiation" was introduced just after I left RSE,
perhaps someone will share their experiences on this thread.
It is very important to publicly document on EMF what goes on at RSE Inc.

David.
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

Another Dimension60
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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:05 pm

the first woods to the tank experience was in 92 (I think) - we were walked in groups to the fence bordering 93rd street and told to make our way to the tank - blindfolded - We, at least I, and probably most of us, hadn't been in those woods before - hilly, rocky, trees, briars, undergrowth -- Some people got turned around and climbed over the fence and were wandering down 93rd street, blindfolded - fortunately not a heavily trafficked road. We all had multiple bruises and scraps - some worse than others.

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Unread post by littlewiseone » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:50 pm

Wow, the forest tank... that was actually the first time I made it to the void...

I think I was among the first 50 people to make it out of the woods (I knew some of the people on top of the tank at the time and they told me). It was actually an amazing experience for me because it felt like I just b-lined it right to the field and then into the tank and the next thing I knew I was in the void. When I came to the last ladder leading into the void I guess I hesitated and a voice from up above (the tank, not heaven) spoke: 'engage it master'. I guess he meant the ladder because once I was over I had made it to the void. Pretty empowering experience at the time but what if he had said 'that's your past, master'...? Just goes to show how controlled we were, but we were so sure we were the ones in control...

Of course, the next time I was in the woods a few days later I wandered aimlessly for 8+ hours. One of the worst experiences at the ranch. Ever.
...and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make...

- The Beatles

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xindy
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Unread post by xindy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:06 pm

JZ Knight's greatest achievement was the PERFECT HUMAN...

THE RAMBOT


I can see through most of the posts that you call yourselves Ramsters or ex-Ramsters. It sounds so much like a hamster. Running on a wheel & never being able to reach the end, for there is no end for the hamster. But as all ex-Ramsters know, there is an END. You're are all survivors of the most intense training imaginable even more than military training for Special Forces.

May you all celebrate your well-deserved FREEDOM!
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by Tree » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:46 am

as was stated earlier, I loved the tank.
I did not liken myself to the group with Lars (Master of Roses), Billy (william of Orange) and Vicky Cady, etc.
I made every trek and every decision without the aid of the powers that be above.

THEE most memorable trip for me was the year we were "allowed" to bring our children with us blind folded and holding hands.
The child had to be at least ten ( if I remember correctly).
Of course, I had the confidence of over 40 previous trips (if not more) to the tank, including the woods.
But this trip, being wholely respsible for my son on some other level was beyond,,,,,,

They duct taped us up.
We walked 20 to a group with one hand on the preceding person's shoulder down the road, meandering to the back woods.
My son was behind me.

We were told to sit in the woods.
I was scared to near death.
We did C + E. I then sat quiet, as that served me better to be silent.

The order was given to go.
And here my son and I were. Holding on, not allowed to speak to each other, me trying to talk to him through the
touch of our hands.
I had to hide all forms of fear, for if I did not, my son would feel this.

We bumped into some trees.
Stumbled through some leaves and briar.
My son was panting and was very hot and whispered, "momma! i need to take my shirt off."
I told him to tie it around his waist in a very hushed voice.
my first time EVER talking in the test of the tank. The fear of repurcussions of talking were inexplicable.
But I HAD to. It was my only child.

We continued on.
We scrambled down the hill to which my son whispered in glee, "Momma!! I know where we are!"
We crawled thorugh the fence.
High tailed it to the tank.
At which times, James Flick told us to let go of our hands.
I was stunned.
We were one of the first to make it to the tank and yet I was petrified my son was going to be trampled to death (he
was on the tiny side).
I zip zip zipped through the tank, to the void in utter flabergastedness.
I asked the master builder where my son was.
"He asked us to take him out the first five minutes he was in. So we did. He is out in the kids' name field."

omg.
The worst tank trip of my life EVER!!

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Unread post by Tree » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:49 am

I just read and re read this post as I have never told this story to anybody.

I find it UTTERLY amazing I even consented to this at all.
And the utter fear of not being able to talk because we were told not to.
How brainwashed is THAT?

And to DEMAND my son and I not got any further once we arrived at the tank is utterly
beyond my comprehension from this side of the group.
Who in their right mind would acquiense to such ______________?
I am seriously at a loss for words.
How brainwashed a person can be.

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Robair
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Hello

Unread post by Robair » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:59 am

Hello Xindy
One exercise that we did just a few time my self did it twice,was the running at each other bindfolded,it went like this we will all gather in the name field, around 900 of us we would split in half go to each end of the field,and put our Blinders on an wait for JZR to give the orther and when she did we will all run as fast as we could acrose the field.
You can imagine the rest.
Oldone

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:49 am

Tree..

Just a quick note to thank you for posting that account.


David
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

California Dreamin'
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My Worst Forest Experience

Unread post by California Dreamin' » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:38 am

My worst forest experience was my first forest experience.

Firstly, I was bundled up and fully clothed/prepared for any type of weather. I even had my rain gear (unbreathing rubber top and bottom) on. Because I was so layered, I was sweating up a storm. I didn't think to bring water with me, being my first time and all, and not wanting to have to pee, I was critically dehydrated by the end of the day. (Must have been 8 hours or so.)

To make matters worse, impeccable master that I was, I refused to be lured through the forest to the tank (which was where we were supposed to end up) by the sound of the music that was emanating from the tank. I thought the music was a trick to deceive me, so when I heard the music, I actually walked in the OTHER direction. I was out all day in extreme heat and way over-dressed and so thirsty and dehydrated that all I could do for comfort was to rest my face on the mossy stub of a tree. The moss was cool and comforting on my face, and I really thought I might die (and probably could/would have) if the forest test hadn't been deemed over for the day.

The scary and unbelievable aspect of this is that although I felt certain death MIGHT be imminent, it didn't occur to me to rip off the duct tape and my mask and surrender/give up. I would have "gone down/died" with my face fully taped. I had to be impeccable at any cost.

When this test was finally over, I was offered some water and drank it so greedily that it didn't even occur to me to share it with someone else. I just guzzled it, and couldn't get enough to drink.

I also learned that the same day I had this experience, another student named Clyde XXX was dehydrated, too. When he got back to his supplies he guzzled his wine (how much I don't know). Anyway, he became very ill and left the school and never returned.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:28 am

" Even though I found my way "to the void" (and how stupid is that concept - how can focusing on the void which is everywhere by definition,"


Yes, exactly !!!!
One time I found my way back OUT of the tank, and I refused to return to the inside. I twirled around for a short while, just because I was So tickled to be outside instead of crammed in there any longer. I was thinking that; the void is everywhere so Ha ! They can stay inside and I'm glad I'm OUT.

Ohhhh, and NOW I understand <wink>...I created the future of myself leaving !!

Anyway, it's just another discrepancy.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:43 am

CD, being that dehydrated, you're lucky you didn't end up like others did, in the hospital.

I don't recall a lot of forest experiences, just a few. I remember going very slowly, so I wouldn't fall/trip/who knows what !
I remember getting to the fence, knowing the tank was just on the other side so now I was out of the woods; yeah !
Then, one time, I remember thinking, "the hexx with JZR", and I sat down on a nice log in the forest, and I hid there for what is, I am sure, many hours. I nearly fell asleep and eventually I heard a staff person yelling at me, "Lady in the red !!!! GET UP and MOVE."

I ignored him. (It was Robert; I knew the voice) I was left alone for a long time after, until someone came very close to me and yelled at me to get up. So, that time, I did.

As has been mentioned, though I did contemplate it, I didn't DARE to remove my duct tape and/or blinders.

Maybe the smartest ones were the folks who dared to put the pinholes in their blinders so they could see !!! In a strange way, one can see what courage it took to do that; they had to over ride the fear/guilt factor.

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Unread post by xindy » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:19 pm

Tree wrote:I just read and re read this post as I have never told this story to anybody.

I find it UTTERLY amazing I even consented to this at all.
And the utter fear of not being able to talk because we were told not to.
How brainwashed is THAT?

And to DEMAND my son and I not got any further once we arrived at the tank is utterly
beyond my comprehension from this side of the group.
Who in their right mind would acquiense to such ______________?
I am seriously at a loss for words.
How brainwashed a person can be.
I am so sorry I made you relive the most terrifying of your experiences. I didn't intend to draw out these hurtful feelings.

Tree you've been such a pillar of strength to me & I'm sure to others on EMF & I will not be the one to hurt you or anyone else who is responding to my posts & telling me about their worst experiences. That is not why I came here. I have my own personal experiences unrelated to RSE that I don't like to talk about publicly, as it hurts.

If I've caused anyone to go backwards in their recovery process, then PLEASE STOP answering my posts & just give me a link to help me find what I am searching for.

Tree & everyone, you are the most incredible, courageous human beings I've had the pleasure to talk with.

God Bless You All!
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by Tree » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:39 am

I ignored him. (It was Robert; I knew the voice)
if anyone angers me at RSE, it is Robert with his holier than thou attitude that has been ever so prominent at the ranch.
INCLUDING the children's field.
This guy is a piece of work.
To this day, if I ever hear "ARISE!" or "follow my voice" from him,again I would want to shoot him.
Robert is the epitome of abuse in the flesh.
jz is much subtler.....

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Unread post by Tree » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:41 am

xindy-
not to worry about any steps back or whatever, by any of us.
At any given time, we can not answer, or not come to the forums if we are not up to it.

You never know when a one-liner will spark an "a-ha!" for someone.
Your contributions make for a larger view. Thank YOU! :)

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Unread post by xindy » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:57 pm

Tree wrote:xindy-
not to worry about any steps back or whatever, by any of us.
At any given time, we can not answer, or not come to the forums if we are not up to it.

You never know when a one-liner will spark an "a-ha!" for someone.
Your contributions make for a larger view. Thank YOU! :)
Thank You Tree. I was so afraid I was doing more damage than good with my questions. I had NO IDEA that ex-RSE members are still carrying a "fear" in them that somehow JZ/R will hurt them. Her brainwashing techniques must be so powerful that even after leaving RSE some still carry the FEAR she instilled in them.

My Heart goes out to everyone who found their way back HOME & to those still on the edge of returning HOME.
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by Tree » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:43 pm

I had NO IDEA that ex-RSE members are still carrying a "fear" in them that somehow JZ/R will hurt them.
I think this is one of the most difficult aspects to work through.
I truly think it is according to each individual, just as their experiences were at the ranch were as well.
That fear, I think, prevails for a very long time and in varying degrees.
And I believe if one does not deal with it well or have help, then it could very well turn to anger.

It is more imbedded than one thinks when they get out.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:30 pm

tree,

why do you connect robert-abuse-especially the children's field ? what happened ?

now he is one i think would drink the kool-aid. it's ALL about jzr for him. his poor kids were raised in this cult and now it's generational ? sad.

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About Robert

Unread post by Robair » Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:33 am

Hello Whatcha.
My self I do not belive that SIR Robert (how do you become a Sir) belive in Ramtha I am pretty sure that he is part of the the few that know the hole story.I have been told of his escapades in Vegas gambling large some of money,and buying very expensif Jewlery, Yes yes the booths and Robe also my friends (current Ramsters and Very good friend with him told me that he an someone else had some kind of way to make money that did not make any sense at all, did not want to get in an argument with them so I just when along with that charade.
I think his Money come from JZR ehter Black mail or the have some kind of contract with each other.
I made that statement before,David does have a good take on him also.
When he said he get up at 4 am to do discipline I have hard time to belive the way I know him (worked for Me) he is to lazy for that

Like Tree said sometime ago Don't get me started on him an DR Greg
Oldone

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:06 am

oldone, thanks for sharing that.

i didn't know SIR (hahahaha) robert very well...just a little bit.
a few times he seemed pleasant enough. i understand he and a woman (not his wife) created a baby together during a wine ceremony. that woman raises the child as a single mom. correct me if i'm wrong about this, as i don't think i am. anyway, just to say i lost respect for him when i found that out. in my last years at rse, he left me alone when i would leave the field, things like that, when students would typically get yelled at to "participate". he didn't nag me. but, there were a few times when i found his aggressive tone, barking out orders to others, quite offensive. once, he lied to me about something....ahhh...i won't elaborate, but it's the truth. it was connected to his book, a while back. lied to me to shut me up and then never fulfilled his promise...which he owed me. tsk, tsk.

greg ????????????????????? don't get me started, either !!!! yuck.
in my experience, he is more abusive, rude, contentious, than robert. or maybe they're tied for first place ?!

so you really think that he is in on jz's scam !? perhaps you're right. he always struck me as a believer/fanatic. :roll:

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Unread post by G2G » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:35 am

"Sir Robert" (I had no idea that was what he was called while I was there) approached me one time, when I was muddy, wearing an old rainproof oil-coat someone loaned me, I obviously had no makeup on, my hair was wet and dripping, and I looked and felt as though I'd crawled out of a swamp - looking like a swamp monster. "Robert" walked over to me while I was washing off my boots and said, "Master, you look so peaceful." I laughed...because if he only knew for a moment just how ticked I was about the condition of the field, another "teachers' " abusive remarks to all of us earlier, and the fact that I now was certain I was never coming back... Just *how* "evolved" was he? lol...

And Greg? The epitome of arrogance. Would love to see a "south park" episode with these characters on it!!!!!!
8) 8) 8)
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972

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Unread post by Tree » Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:10 pm

why do you connect robert-abuse-especially the children's field ? what happened ?
my son and his son used to hang out together as kids. When your kids hang out with other kids, you usually get to know another household fairly well or at least how it is run.
Robert is very very abusive in his own household.
I cannot tell you how many times his verbally abusive ways ran amok when jz put him in charge of the separate
children's field years ago. I just thank god I made sure I told my kid to avoid any situation with Robert.

Robert is a retired vet.
Other than what oldone and David have said (and I do not know for myself) , I have always found it amazing he has such a crap load of money on a vets'
pension. Not to mention his womanizing. I think he hit on nearly any white female in the audience at any given time.
"Ramtha" used to go on and on personally to Robert about his escapades.

He is such a lazy _________.
And he is a rotten poker player.
Great bloke to make a ton of money from on the felt. :shock:

In all honesty, I think Robert is really really superstitious,
So, unless he has a personal agreement with JZ to buy all these robes in public with her funding that,
I think he totally believes in and is in fear of Ramtha. Just the nature of the beast.
I am not sorry to say that when he was quite ill last year and the year before, I wished he would have
kicked off. The kids and the people at the ranch would have been less abused verbally speaking.
His abuse rates right up there with Joan Crawford.

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Re: The Tank

Unread post by Vanilla » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:56 am

I was pregnant and I fell off a ladder on my bum and started crying. It was raining and I slid off top rung.
I was not given sympathy by guards when I just needed it that moment. It was very cold. I thought I had failed and let emotions take over or something.


Why did I go in?

I was told its good for baby, to go in pregnant, and told all these stories of pregnant mothers, and babies come out and they go to the tank very early on and find the void.

I will tell you it was an experience. I never felt so helpless. So incapable.

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Re: The Tank

Unread post by California Dreamin' » Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:46 pm

Maybe the smartest ones were the folks who dared to put the pinholes in their blinders so they could see !!! In a strange way, one can see what courage it took to do that; they had to over ride the fear/guilt factor.
Question: Did people really poke pinholes in their blinders??? I could never believe that theory.


CD

candle
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Re: The Tank

Unread post by candle » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:30 am

I have a couple of things to add to this thread. Firstly, Vanilla, I find it incomprehensible that the red guards didn't step in when a pregnant woman fell. It adds to the body of evidence that makes me fairly certain RSE isn't the place to go for spiritual nurture.

Secondly, in regards to the tank experience, I heard a couple of weeks ago a story that reinforced, for me, the absolute cliquish nature of RSE. I, of course, like everyone else, knew that some "masters" were helped to the tank. Didn't seem fair, but it wasn't hidden. You can hear the red guards telling the privileged few where to turn and when to climb.

I have a friend that was recently in that tank and she related the following story to me. She found herself on a ladder climbing up, when someone yelled at her to GET DOWN OFF THAT LADDER, right now!! She thought she'd made a bad turn and was being guided as some are and immediately got off the ladder. (She happens to be on a friendly basis with several of the red guards...) anyway, after yelling at her the guard in question recognized her and realized who she was. He told her to go ahead and climb that ladder. It took her to the void. So as I see it, SHE HAD FOUND THE VOID. SHE HAD COMPLETED THE TEST. But she wasn't going to be allowed the victory of reaching the void because they didnt' realize who she was. How many others reach the "void" and then are denied the right to enter??

It's strange what little thing is the deal breaker in our minds. Even though I'd already reached the conclusion that I was pretty sure I was completely done with RSE, that story helped to cement my resolve.

I really appreciate this forum, while I haven't posted much it is a place I come when I feel the community trying to pull me back in... I read here and wonder what I was thinking when I thought about going to just one more thing.

Candle

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Re: The Tank

Unread post by Vanilla » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:54 am

I broke down and cried when I came out. I laid in the mud and cried.. Just the thought of losing my baby really hurt me to the bone.

I had failed and knew it. I failed because I did something wrong. I didnt leave my body. I didnt see infrared. I was there from morning to 6 pm. Blindfolded. During the tank, I pissed myself. I couldnt hold it. For a few hours I didnt know how to piss myself, and I was wondering how. I never did that before. Maybe when I was in diapers.

I also got yelled at, told to focus and someone got mad at me when I couldnt find my way out of a box. When I ignored the guard, he came up to me and said, " You know I am talking to you?". Then he said he wanted it to be the last time he helped me. Well, I didnt want his help!
I was just not used to strange men being mean to me. I am a nice girl.

I failed at the tank. I let me emotions take over. I couldnt hold my focus. My focus on nothing. I couldn't and I didnt have any help from my god, or my higher self. Nobody was there. But me blindfolded and confused.


Then some beginner was the only one who made it. I was so angry.

I did, Candle, go up ladders and told not to go up them. I do remember this. A few of them. Except the one I fell down from. From the top, no lie.


It felt like a childrens playground.

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Re: The Tank

Unread post by Indigo » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:06 am

What a trip down memory lane this topic was for me. I was at the very first tank, and the first forest walk you all have been discussing. I had forgotten all about these things until I read the posts, which are so accurate and descriptive. As I recall the first tank was sprung on us as a surprise at either a follow-up or Assay. We all wondered what that structure was on the property as we drove into the event that day. I don't remember all the details clearly, but I do remember I did get into the Void that day, and there were benches to sit on, and Ram told us that we would never have to do the Tank again since we had found the Void. Wrong. Then, shortly thereafter there was either a follow-up or an Assay, which is when we did the first blindfolded, forest walk. I remember we were lined up in the arena, put our masks on, taped, and were led out in a single file line and taken to different places on the property by different staff members to start from. We were to find the tank, get inside, and find the void. I was way up in the forest, close to the fence. I bumped around into trees and rocks and whatnot for quite a while, then I heard music so I followed that, as it turned out a few other lost souls did as well. It was one of the neighbors or their kids with a boombox playing music to draw us up to the fence and laugh at us. Time to turn around and head in the other direction, with a red face! Getting through the blackberry bramble was a good sign, because they were close to the tank as far as I knew. (A friend and I had gone to the War Surplus store and bought fatigues that were blackberry thorn resistant, which was so worth the investment!) Then I finally found the tank, got inside, and did not get to the void. I remember Ram yelling at me "What took you so long." when I got to the tank that day. I do remember a bunch of shoving, pushing, crying and being stuck in the worms. UGH.
I can confirm the staff member who had a detached retina from the tank is true, she told me about it personally. She was crawling under a "wall" in the tank and someone stepped on her face. I do remember the instruction to not pay attention to anyone else's drama while in the tank, (ie injury, crying, etc.) and we were not to talk, EVER. The staff would yell at you and still you could not respond. Frustrating. Now I wonder what on earth I was thinking.
I was also there for the first "run across the field as fast as you can, blindfolded" experience. I remember having some real concerns about this one when the instruction was given. Linda Evans was right next to me and she ran as well. I did not get hurt, but the number people lined up along the fence that were injured after this run was very sobering. They were seriously hurt, some of them. And we filed back into the arena past them,being told by staff not to look at or help the injured. We were taught, at that time, that they created their injuries, and if we emerged from this crazy exercise unscathed, we were somehow "superior" or more advanced. A friend who was on staff told me later that they took the injured to the hospital (St. Pete's?) and when asked what had caused all the injuries they told them a soccer or football game.
I saw a lady on the field the next day with sutures all over her forehead into her scalp, totally black and blue and swollen, who had come back and was walking around the field, blindfolded, while injured like that. I shuddered and my heart went out to her when I saw her. She needed to be home resting, not risking more injury walking on the field.
So, in thinking back over the years to what I allowed into my life, in search of what I felt was enlightenment and truth, I certainly have nothing but compassion for those still doing these crazy exercises that are so terribly dangerous. I cannot believe that children and pregnant women go into the tank, or that no one has sued for damages after all these years.
I hope this is helpful to some.

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Re: The Tank

Unread post by seriously » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:40 pm

This was a trip down memory lane for me as well. It had to be 20 years ago. For years, the smell of duct tape always made me think of the tank and the dread of knowing I was going to be blindfolded for 4 hours or so. Uhhh.

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Re: The Tank

Unread post by Indigo » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:12 pm

seriously wrote:This was a trip down memory lane for me as well. It had to be 20 years ago. For years, the smell of duct tape always made me think of the tank and the dread of knowing I was going to be blindfolded for 4 hours or so. Uhhh.
Funny, that! What I realize I still do is rush ever time I have water running because when I first moved out to my "hovel" off of Bald Hills lane I could only have running water when the generator was running...and that was over around 20 years ago. That meant slogging out to the pumphouse through the rain, ice/snow and mud, starting the generator, slogging back, doing the dishes or taking a shower and rushing back out to turn off the generator before it ran out of gas. Crazy. Odd how it is that certain things stick with you from RSE over the years. Yours is duct tape----for a few years I couldn't stand granola and yogurt because we all took that to the Ranch for required follow ups and Assays....that was about all that would last in cooler for that long. We usually get a couple hour break somewhere mid event so we could rush out and buy more ice for our coolers. UGH...aren't you glad we are liberated from all that? When I look back on it now it seems sort of like adult kids playing survival games or in a secret fort, though we were dead set on enlightenment and saving our skins from foretasted imminent disaster. I still wonder about how/why I put my brain on hold and my body though that kind of trauma and those field exercises. Here's to today, in the sunshine, no duct tape!!

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Re: The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:20 pm

I still wonder about how/why I put my brain on hold and my body though that kind of trauma and those field exercises. Here's to today, in the sunshine, no duct tape!!
Thank you for your posts everyone.... :idea:
I understand full well why I put myself through those torturous and inhuman practices..We were all brainwashed and abused by a religious cult...
But my main point of starting this thread was to expose JZ Knight of child abuse at RSE, that we as parents were not only willing to subject ourselves to physical and psychological deprivation at the commands of JZ K/Ramtha…. we also surrender over our children to the same abuse.
EMF has submitted documented evidence of child abuse at RSE ,
The Seattle Child Protection Services (CPS) consequently submitted a report but the Thurston county police department "who have the final say if a complaint of child abuse at RSE is to be investigated" They have buried the CPS report....not even a call to EMF.
And people wonder why cults such as RSE stay in business….. :-? $$$$$


David
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Indigo
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Re: The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by Indigo » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:20 pm

This is most disturbing. I discussed the situation with a close friend from Washington. He suggests contacting the Sheriff's department. Clearly the local officials and newspaper appear to be bought and paid for by RSE, or, they just aren't doing their jobs. Not being familiar with these type of things, I post this for those who are local to comment on, and perhaps take action, by reaching out to the Sheriff's department. Surely someone up there with some power to take action has to care before more injury and death occurs. I hope!

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Re: The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by ex » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:07 pm

my first tank: we got duck taped in the tank field. the entrance was one of several tubes. i needed a long time to get into the tank. i anyway couldn't understand let say grasp the concept.find nothingness no mapping no touch no.......when i finally got in i diden't advance very far i ended up in front of the tank again. garola was there and ask if i wanna give up. enthusiastic as i was i said no and went back. i kind of accepted the thought of just letting go. i ended up at the entrance again. i decided to quit the exercise. my reasoning was if i end up at the entrance i don't wanna do it. i diden't associate failing or anything with it. i stated to garole that i am done and wanna quit. even so he offered me the way out the first time he refused to let me go. and said i can't quit. that was the first time my free will got denied at the ranch. i see this today as the breaking down phase of the cult.just like in the sweat lodge if you wanna out there is a guy who don't let you.up to now nobody got murdered at jzs grounds. i had more experiences were rse staff clearly denied free will. i associated this with the there present military structure but i see more clearly now what it realy was. the first glimpse that the carrot hangs too far away of ever getting it. most staff nows whats going on and just wants a bigger peace of the cake.

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Re: The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by Ockham » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:26 am

For those of us who aren't in RSE, the following part-2 of an RSE promotional video have some pretty good clips of students wandering through the tank. Note the narrator mentions that it has, "colorful walls." I wonder how many have sensed the colors while blindfolded. I'm not necessarily a skeptic; truly wonder if anybody was able to sense the colors, and if the colors were hints to the solution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdozeVvO ... re=related

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Re: The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:18 pm

Note the narrator mentions that it has, "colorful walls." I wonder how many have sensed the colors while blindfolded. I'm not necessarily a skeptic; truly wonder if anybody was able to sense the colors, and if the colors were hints to the solution.
Ockham,
What the narrator fails to mention is:
There are certain "doorways panels" that are moved aside to allow entry to "the solution"..........
But only for those students deemed worthy.
Just one of the many deceptive "initiations" JZ Knight uses with the full collusion of certain "trusted" staff members
to groom RSE students ever deeper into the mire.

David
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

Indigo
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Re: The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by Indigo » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:33 pm

This is interesting. Thank you for posting the link. I only watched part of it and it all looks so peaceful and calm. My, the tank has grown if it is over an acre now. I was in the very first tank and did make it to the void. I don't know why so I cannot address that, I was not part of the "in" crowd but did know some of them. Did anyone else have that experience that first tank day? Ram told us, as a group while we were in the Void, that we had passed this test and never would have to do the tank again. Which was not the case later and that promise was never addressed. The several times I was in the tank after that there was mass pushing and shoving, some hysterical crying, a few injuries and it was just plain uncomfortable. The tubes were dreadful and claustrophobic, especially when you ran into someone going the other way. Ugh.

I must say, I couldn't help but notice how good JZ looks in this video, different, from all the plastic surgery and botox or whatever she uses, but rested and good. How long ago was it taken?

Ockham
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Re: The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by Ockham » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:34 pm

The credits at the end, say (c) 2001. The video's title is apparently, A Look Within, produced by Julie Backlow. The credits also call it a, "modified version." My feeling is that it is at least several years older as originally produced by Ms. Blacklow. (She was with KING channel 5 through 1992, and apparently an independent producer after that). Seems like RSE did with this video like what they did with Ramtha (the white book) where they take it over, minimizing and perhaps eventually expunge attribution of the original creator.

The video is certainly sanitized promotional propaganda, but an interesting tour of the tank and ohter things anyway.

The RSE web site also has a link to the video, but the domain name hosting the content is an expired domain: http://www.ramtha.com/cgi-bin/greetings/LookWithIn.asp

JZ Knight certainly looks younger and more chipper, but not a bouncy and bubbly as she looks in the 1985 Merv Griffin intervew.

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Re: The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by Indigo » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:37 pm

Thank you for the information. Funny how time tends to alter the bouncy and chipper appearance and exuberance, eh?

I like how you use sanitized to describe the video. I lost interest ipartway through the video, but enjoyed, sort of, the part I did watch. My memories of the tank and the field are not happy ones, despite some success in both. It is just not my path. When JZ or the student, says it is not a comfortable school that certainly speaks volumes. Take heed. It is just new people (and I did, too) see that as a challenge and see yourself as one of the select students, and once you are immersed in the "challenge" it takes quite a while to realize it is, imo, futile and filled with fear, not a path to knowledge and enlightenment. Rather is seems to be a path to poverty, sadness and isolation.

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Re: The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:18 pm

I was in the very first tank and did make it to the void.
Congratulations Indigo,
You were selected to reach the void . :-?
Imagine if you will… a farmers cattle race where "the sheep" are herded into a narrow and constricted path where from above the farmer swings a gate to direct the sheep to the pen of his choosing.
Yes.... you "made" it to the void and the "Ram" personally assisted you....
but at what price, what methods and by whom...?
Would you have stopped to help an injured person or a crying child while you were in the tank?
Good for you if so.
David
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

Indigo
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Re: The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by Indigo » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:03 am

Hmmmm, clearly not looking for congratulations in my post. The intent was to ask of others who had been there the first day, if any are on EMF, and confirm my memory of the promise given that we would not have to do the tank again. Were "doors" opened for me? I have absolutely no clue, dunno, and it is not of any importance that I can see at this point. It was many, many years ago and a hazy memory, David. There certainly are far more important things to think about. Would I have helped an injured person or child? I don't recall any children being allowed in the tank any of the times I went; an injured adult would have been a real conundrum as we had been given strict orders not to speak under any circumstance. Would you have, then? At that time I was a good soldier and I did avert my eyes from those injured on the sidelines after we ran across the field, at Staff's insistent direction. Did you help them? I also have no medical training and am not good in crisis situations with blood and guts. A serious weakness of mine. I did make sure Staff was there before I went inside the arena, though. Susie told me they were taking them to the hospital. I don't know what my response would have been then in the tank to an injured adult. I expect I would have stopped to offer physical comfort if I could find them in the mob with blinders on, and I would have thought the staff were there on the roof to help, and that they would take care of it. I know I could not have passed by a small child in trauma.

My question to you is why do you ask me these questions?

In peace.

Another Dimension60
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Re: The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:30 am

one of my breakthroughs in awakening from ramthanosis was the realization that 'the tank' and 'making it to the void' had become/were in fact the 'social consciousness' we thought ourselves too enlightened to be bothered with. That instead of 'the tank being' about 'analogical mind' and a superior altered state of consciousness it was/is the essence of the ugliest of social consciousness. And one day I decided that not going to the tank was the nobler choice - it was a very very scary decision in an environment of threats by ramtha to 'bring us down' should we disobey orders. It was one of the most liberating moments/experiences of my life - sitting in my car, smoking a cigarette, while everyone else was playing tank.
Another grand learning in the tank was don't go into a tube that smells - that's where fear is - and the tank is the epitome of fear.

And has anyone ever questioned what 'the Void' has to do with the center of a maze?

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Re: The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by Marie » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:42 am

I love when she breaks out in that little hobbit-like voice! hahaha.
"That's me in the corner -- losing my religion" -- REM

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Re: The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by David McCarthy » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:43 am

Were "doors" opened for me? I have absolutely no clue, dunno, and it is not of any importance that I can see at this point.
But you do have a clue Indigo... I just explained to you the tank was/is fixed.
to most "Ramtha" believers it is of no importance...
Who tell me "Even if the tank is fixed I still created the reality of reaching the void :-?." There is no right or wrong....
an injured adult would have been a real conundrum as we had been given strict orders not to speak under any circumstance.
Would you have, then?
No..
I often ignored the screams of panic and pain from other "Masters" while in the tank, why should I be concerned… they created that reality... right?
Afterall..the all powerfu "Ram" knew what he was doing..right ? :-?
Here is the truth that I hope means something to you while visiting those faded memories of your RSE tank expiriences...
The tank was concocted by JZ Knight as a very successful method "innitiation" to break down a human beings mental capacity “Men, Women and CHILDREN to think critically by using physical and psychological deprivation practises, thus rendering those minds more pliable to her control.
I was a good soldier and I did avert my eyes from those injured on the sidelines after we ran across the field, at Staff's insistent direction. Did you help them?
No.... I did not reach out to help anybody ...
And No...We were not a good soldiers at all..rather.. we were a bunch of brainwashed RSE cult members that couldn’t see what was hidden in plain sight..
And one day I decided that not going to the tank was the nobler choice
It is never a noble choice to follow the commands of a cult leader.
Especially from JZ Knight... a sociopathic fraud wearing a concocted personality called Ramtha.

David
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Re: Child abuse at RSE The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by bromia » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:19 pm

My very last tank experience was, I think, in 2004. It was a pretty long tank--maybe 8 hours, maybe longer--and I (with my characteristic lack of interest in that particular "discipline") wandered around and tried not to get stepped on/step on anyone. I remember that event was particularly fun because so many Italians were in attendance, RSE having begun the international events. The guards were going crazy because the Italians were holding hands and talking and singing instead of focusing. It was pretty funny. Anyway, the most memorable moment was when they called the tank. There was total silence. (And keep in mind the tank had been really loud because of all the talking/singing/weeping Italians!) All I could hear was a child crying. Suddenly I was perfectly capable of navigating the tank. I went down a hall, through a worm hole, under a doorway, through a window, and found the kid. We hugged and I grabbed his/her hand. We got out of the tank. I never saw him/her. I was 22 at the time. Don't have any maternal instincts to this day. But there was no way I could leave that kid crying in the tank!

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Re: Child abuse at RSE The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by freemysoul » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:53 pm

In my opinion, based on almost 20 years of rse indoctrination and many years of evaluating those experiences, the only purpose that JZ's 'disciplines' have or ever will have, is to condition a person to follow unquestioningly the words/advice/commands of their 'teacher', detaching critical thought and reason from those being 'taught/trained'. They are highly advertised by rse to be some lofty tool to bring forth enlightenment, when in actuality, their purpose is to mold peoples behavior and attitudes for the desired effect of convincing the 'student' they have accomplished something magical or out of the ordinary, when in reality, accomplishing any of JZ's manipulative techniques is no more magical or enlightened than calling a coin toss, except the coin toss doesn't lead to the inevitable brain washing and harmful effects JZ's mind games have on those initiated. Also, being taught that the way to 'god' involves doing WHATEVER the 'teacher' commands, leads to becoming a slave to JZ Knight and her shyster dogma, leaving 'students' vulnerable to whatever malicious hokey nonsense JZ wants to make them do.
JZ uses 'disciplines' like advertisers use their manipulative techniques, not out of some noble purpose, but for a specific effect, TO GET PEOPLE UNDER YOUR SPELL SO THEY WILL DO WHATEVER YOU WANT THEM TO.

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Re: Child abuse at RSE The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by freemysoul » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:27 am

Including: Investing in scam after scam, that JZ convinces people will make them rich beyond belief (omega, clustered water, blue vitamins, seawater, her horses, gold coins, etc.). Convincing people to take Prozac to expand their limited minds. Convincing and commanding people to drink red wine, in excess, while under the influence of Prozac. Making people sit in the wet and cold Washington weather for hours and days at a time, to attain true enlightenment of course. Convincing people to not pay their taxes in the late 80's/early 90's. Convincing people that aliens are not only real, but if you believe as the rest of the social conscious non believers, ie. the rest of the worlds population that understands JZ Knight is a con artist and charlatan, these aliens will hunt you down then kill you and your entire family. Convincing people how corrupt our political system is, including the conspiracy theories galore in the 90's like the Bush family being child molesters (tranceformation of America), the Clinton's being sexual deviant drug addicts, and then going 180 degrees recently to convince her 'students' that Barack Obama is the second coming of Christ, and the only salvation to America's woes, and they must become good 'democrats' and vote like she does. Convincing people of the new world order conspiracy nonsense with fear filled hours long 'important messages' she would call every weekend, intoxicating the 'students' with commanded glass after wine filled glass, until the entire audience is drunk and scared to the point of hording guns and food. Convincing her 'people' they must move to Yelm, within her imaginary 20? mile border of protection from her 'days to come' scare tactics, then telling them how they must build underground bunkers, going as far as providing detailed lists of what you must store, stockpile and be afraid of. Convincing people, days after the 9-11 attacks on the US, that there were terrorists, as she spoke, in 10 major cities across America, with suitcase nuclear bombs, ready to detonate them, and expounding on the 'list' of necessities people must have to survive this new 'attack', and the ones that were sure to follow.
Please add anything I haven't included, as a posting such as this, that shows the nature of rse and jz, had it been available to me before I joined, would have at least educated me to the nature of jz knight and her 'school', and given me information that took life altering years of abuse and manipulation to figure out. This site is the only thing that stands between JZ Knight and any person unlucky enough to go to rse uninformed, and could very well be the catalyst for people awakening from the nightmare that is rse and jz.

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Re: Child abuse at RSE The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by Sunshine » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:30 am

BRAVO Freemysoul!!! Bravo! This site has improved my recovery from r$e more in the last 2 months since finding you all, then in the last 15 years I have been recovering alone. I am forever grateful to the owners, operators and members here. Thanks so much everyone. ❤

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Re: Child abuse at RSE The Tank...a disturbing experience

Unread post by Ockham » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:34 pm

From the way it appears to me as an outsider, the disciplines and and information presented at RSE don't really do all that much, if anything, for the benefit of the student. The RSE participation track is designed for one objective, and that is to keep devotees coming back to spend more money at RSE. That's the problem with RSE being a commercial enterprise; by definition, the company has to attend to reason for its existance, which is making money for people that invested in the company.

I don't see much result from people I know that have taken RSE course work for a decade or more. They still have pretty much the same lives as ever, other than parting with a large portion of their financial security to be part of RSE's customers. I could excuse the RSE fees if I saw eveidence of RSE making anybody a better person - more loving, better able to cope in the world, being able to have more security. I haven't seen any evidence of that.

If you want encounter situations to hone your coping skills by being thrown into tough situations, there are a lot cheaper and better alternatives to RSE's, "tank." Try looking into Warrior Dash (http://www.warriordash.com). It is a lot cheaper and better and available all around the world.

If you want to expolre your inner self and check out your own god inside, try a Zen meditation class. If you live near any moderate size city, you can probably find that for free if you check your city's social network resources. You'll probably get something much more reasoned and educated than C+E and candle focus, and you probably won't have to listen to that damned frog recording CD!

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