From Point Zero to a God with a Character

If you are new to this forum and are looking for information that is particularly helpful and relevant to those who have recently left RSE and are starting their recovery process, this is a good place to start.
Duk
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From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Duk » Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:39 pm

Hello there im back in the forums, so since leaving RSE and trying to get back
to Christianity there are several things that has cause alot of trouble and one of
them is tryng to get back to the concept that God actually has a character, that
has cause me alot of trouble.

Anyone that have success on this kinda difficult transition?

Grace
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Grace » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:28 am

Brother Duk...
I asked the Lord what I might I share with you, Immediately 'the Prodigal Son' from
Luke 15
---Moderator Edit---
Likewise,
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DUK.... I believe God's Love for you is the healing balm for the wounded heart.
---Moderator Edit---
1Jo
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1
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One last thing, for any that hurt and are in despair: this truth has helped me over the years. If you are in trouble, know that the True God over heaven and earth is near.
---Moderator Edit---
There is so much more, nevertheless this is something good!!

Duk
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Duk » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:16 am

Thank you very much Grace, but really redifining the concept of God, is a very
difficult task, little by little Ive been learning from christian authors, and seems
like I got a message of hope that life with purpose is real, but it is like a ghost haunting me
that cant let go of quantum mechanics as philosophy, and all this moments I try
to get my faith back I instanly have thiese photons around me like saying "nah, you cant let
go of what you have learned", I just got to the conclusion that this is a difficult and large process,
but paciencie is the key, I hope someday I believe in God the way I believed in my childhood
and the holy spirit touch my heart as it has done somewere in the past.

One of the things I came o understand lately is how sin is completely ignored in RSE, "oh there is no
sin", and yet the first things that comes to mind when readings big r books is like sin, to be free from sin,
so if I can believe that sin exist as something that corrupts my instints and my self, then I am reconstructing duality, so there must be good in the other side, there must be a God.

Thats my personal experiencie, although Its difficult to believe that there is a hell and a heaven,
whoa what kind of a mess!!! :shock:

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proselytizing on EMF final warning!

Unread post by EMFWebmaster » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:07 am

Dear Grace,
Your insistence to continue posting Bible quotes on EMF despite our moderate requests that you stop has now resulted in your post being edited.
You will be banned without notice if you continue to proselytize on EMF.
Consider this a final warning,

The EMF moderators.

Duk
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Duk » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:35 pm

Dear Grace,
Your insistence to continue posting Bible quotes on EMF despite our moderate requests that you stop has now resulted in your post being edited.
You will be banned without notice if you continue to proselytize on EMF.
Consider this a final warning,

The EMF moderators.
I know Grace post didnt convince anyone on erasing point zero to a god with character, not even me.

But Grace post was very beautiful, and I'll tell you something if there is something that has restored my sleep,
that has bring peace back to my mind is the Bible, and Im not telling you, "hey go to the church and be converted",
no, and its hard to call myself a christian yet, I dont believe I am converted, but its my personal expierience, and is something that really has give me hope to a better life.

I personally dont believe JZK is a scam artist, I believe is posessed by something, not even the most professional master jedi NLP Hypnotist can talk the way big R do, and easilly create books from audiotapes with minimum edition with such seductive style, its impossible, to be done by a single human being, its something very bad, and the only thing that "something" wants is to us humans is to get lost in selfishness and self-obsesion.


This is my personal experience although Im having a bad time believing fully again, it gives me peace, and hope of a better life.

Is not fair to ban Grace or edit her posts in my own opinion, just because she posts Bible quotes doesnt mean someone is going to be converted to Christianity, even though I like the Gospel because of the messages it brings to me, it doesnt mean Im converted.


Anyways have a Good one.

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Robair
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Robair » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:53 pm

Hello duk
I have been out of RSE mind for the last 4 years and still struggling with the concept of God .
Your trouble with God has a character is a very big dilemma for me also, and the other problem with me is why we refer to God as a man by doing so we have no other way to see him as someone with a character, and if he as one that put him in position of judging therefore acknowledging that we can be judged according to the formation of it character in consequence his believe. That the way my simple mind see it, and someone quoting the bible to me make it even worst ,the concept of God to me is way behind the Bible. So like you I am still not really sure about anything .I sure would like to hear Joe’s take in all of this since he has struggle with it much longer than all of us and seem to have found a place of peace.
Oldone
I Value Things Not For What They Worth But For What They Represent

hidesert
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by hidesert » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:21 pm

Hey Duk, I understand where you are coming from but the EMF moderators have to utilize some boundaries and rules to maintain the clarity and function of this site and they are right in their action to Grace even though she is well meaning. She and others can personally mail you quotes if that is what you want. This forum is not to promote their cause, they can create their own web site to pursue that, this is not the place.
Personally, after growing up in the Bible belt, I truly tried to make The Bible work for me and the more I tried, the more my life fell apart. I have, and it has not been easy and has taken tremendous amount of courage, developed my own belief system, picking and choosing from other religions and more predominantly my life experiences to map what works for me. So in response to your initial question to this particular forum, I found what the churches were trying to teach about somethings in the bible, didn't feel right or make sense to me. You have to think about the history of the bible, when it was actually written as well as the numerous times it has been rewritten and that it's meaning is subject highly to interpretation (and there are almost infinite interpretations). If you are having trouble with someone's interpretation, contemplate why and do not doubt your intuition/common sense. Your own wisdom which you are re-developing post RSE will help you. Although other people are sincere and well meaning, they have their truths, you have yours and as for myself, lots of times, the truths may not correlate. Perhaps that may be the reason for the "trouble" you are feeling.
I am not a part of any organized religion or school but have and I am continually developing my own "community" (as it is an on-going process) which I think we all in sense are looking to belong to a community and which is a strong binding force for any organization. My community happens to expand a wide geographical location and a diversity of multicultural, open hearted, sharp minded loving people which is culturally a change for our world due to the development of computers/intenet connecting us in ways we have not been able to connect historically.
I, like the EMF moderators, do not care for Chrisitians to quote scripture. Most of us know what the Bible says as we had to memorize it as kids and there is certainly enough info out there to find anything in the bible on-line if we wanted to know more about the Bible. I know scripture quoting people mean well, so do the Ramsters quoting JZ/Ramtha. So interesting how those two groups are alike! Each quoting something from someone else. This is why when people respond to the "quoters", we want to know what they "think " not what they've been taught. People seem to lose some of their capacity to think for themselves which is an underlying theme at RSE and other religions/schools/organizations. Each group thinking the have found the way. What I do NOT find in most groups is that people are not comfortable letting people walk their path (not an easy thing especially if you are emotionally involved and spirituality is highly emotional subject). It is difficult to be in a community if your beliefs/thoughts differ from that of the majority. I think this is particularly true in organizations in which ritual behavior conflicts with your own and ther is an underlying sense to conform. It is diIfficult to be comfortable in environments of conflict. Many, many groups do not exhibit the behavior that they are comfortable with their beliefs AND have the confidence within themselves to allow others their beliefs. To me, this exhibits not being at peace with oneself. It doesn't help that many organizations teach or enhance the sense that it is their spiritual duty to convert others to their way. This is also human nature. We feel better when others share and confirm the commonality in our beliefs. People talk of peace and want to stop war; and yet, most people are not at peace with themselves, their lives, their beliefs....we are at war with ourselves, families, communities, spiritual practices...have war on drugs, crime, cancer, etc. ...is it no wonder that we are not a peaceful world and won't be until we create it within ourself.

Duk
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Duk » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:42 pm

No , bible is not for repeating and memorizing lines, is for instant applcation in life, and it does, maybe not for you
but for me it does, anyways Im not here from debating if the Bible or christianity is the answer, thats not my question, my purspose of this threat is to find someone that have succeeded in the transition from Point Zero to Christianity God, not someone that doesnt care for the Bible or Christianity, so please just post things that help, thats why I believe Grace post was totally ok, because thats what im expecting people who now believe in God in christianity so I could get a little help, any other posts that just bring more doubt are really not desirable , so now you know.

There should be a Christian part in the forum were people who believe thats the answer can post there and only there. What do mods think?

I dont think banning is the answer, give people space in the site were they can express freely, yeah put rules like not proslytising in the wrong part f the site, wtf this thread is going to a completely different direction.

Grace
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Grace » Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:20 pm

I am so sorry if I offended anyone with the scriptures. My son, our friends and I chat daily and often our chat is very scriptural.... kind of like water flowing... it's the way we are.

I guess all I can say most simply is that Love, Peace, Joy, Healing are all gifts from God that are available.... and HOPE... these are not hurtful things. Not everyone chooses to open and enjoy these gifts.

Duk, you commented:
"to be free from sin,
so if I can believe that sin exist as something that corrupts my instints and my self, then I am reconstructing duality, so there must be good in the other side, there must be a God."

Jesus was sent to the earth to solve the sin problem, we have been reconciled back to God. He accomplished this on the cross. The Apostle Paul addressed this quite a lot, too.

Your comments about "duality" were my very thoughts, too, the days before I came to know the Lord.... so I was excited to see you write that. I believe the more you seek truth... the quantum thoughts will be healed, God is able to help you.... and it's an inward work. This is an ongoing work of God... in all of us in various areas of our lives

Comment to Oldone: I have enjoyed your many comments, I have learned a lot about RSE thru your posts also on 'Wide Eye'. You have a talent in saying much thru few words. Not only you, but many others who post help us to understand. Those of us who have family members at RSE need to know. So thank you, Oldone and everyone. I know you don't appreciate what I have to offer in the Word, but I am very grateful for your information.... Thank-you!!
God Bless you all

ex
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by ex » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:21 am

whats the problem? just change the white book into the bible . if you don't make your OWN sense out of it you r just a cult hopper. [like i was] ...quoting bible or ramtha without your own integrity is just converting. it takes sometime to find your own ground after rse. don't give up or go too much backwards.

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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by joe sz » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:01 pm

I sure would like to hear Joe’s take in all of this since he has struggle with it much longer than all of us and seem to have found a place of peace.
Oldone
Just lost my elaborate answer to this---took too long and the 'submit' kicked it off :-x
I'll save this one before trying to post....

An old friend of mine was into a zen Buddhist center [not a cult like RSE] for 10 years, then he converted to Christianity after a 'born-again' experience just before we met in Santa Fe in 1985. He and I had some good discusssions as I was a recently 'unlapsed' Catholic. We were part of an Christian interdenominational cult education group [of which I was Chairman for 7 years]. He saw his 'walk' as wrestling or struggling with his faith. He used the inexplicable tradition of Jacob (Genesis ch 32) as reference:
That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."
But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
The man asked him, "What is your name?"
"Jacob," he answered.
Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, [e] because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob's hip was touched near the tendon.
This inexplicable tale is a lesson in Jewish tradition. "God" is a "man", and angel (as this is illustrated in many paintings as Jacob wrestled with an Angel <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Wres ... _the_Angel>). Though Jacob sees this man [God] face to face he does not know the man's name. Traditional Jews do not speak the name YHWH but struggle to know it. Like Jacob, those who do get "wounded" before being blessed. iow, "God" in this story only reveals God because Jacob struggled with spirit and matter and he overcame--remained steadfast. There is a saying in the Bible: You cannot see the face of God and live (Exodus 33:20) but Jacob/Israel saw God through his struggle with a messenger of God, or an angel.

Anyway, this idea of struggle with the faith has stuck with me. For proper Muslims [not taliban types] spiritual struggle is the true jihad.

I have to be careful what I recommend for my clients. I only direct them to appropriate sources and rarely recommend books or sources on catholicism or Christianity. A current client however just broke with a Fundamentalist missionary sect. She's a friend of my wife's, was raised Catholic but was in no position to defend her faith when assailed by the Fundamentalist stereotypes about popes and Catholic tradition. So for her recovery, I recommended "Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic" by David Currie (1996) who was a Protestant theologian raised by parents who taught at Moody Bible Inst. His struggle was with facts and real hiistory, so his book clears up a host of issues regarding what Catholic tradition really teaches. In doing so he does not condemn fundamentalists/evangelicals.

if this forum sets up a specific thread for a Bible related discussion, be careful, moderators. Fur may fly :shock:

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Robair
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Robair » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:56 pm

Hello everyone
This is for Grace, after reading your post I am starting to think that you are the same one that have been posting on W.E C and have hijacked it with your quoting of the bible be honest are you?.
For everyone sake on here I will be using part of what I wrote in respond to poster (Sherri) on W.E.C and also explain a bit more about my background.
First I am not a Hater of Christians or Christianity and nothing I have written would claim that. What I have problems with is the self appointed preachers or savoirs that feel the need to convince others to their believe forgetting what this forum and this site is all about and for some reason they feel the need to come on here and preach, completely ignoring the harm they might be doing By PUSHING their completely out of context view and believe on other that don’t want to hear it.I think that is clear enough.
I am a old man 63 years old born somewhere on the Canadian East coast, raised Catholic went to church every day for a good part of my childhood and served Mass for 5 years, got married in a Catholic church to still my wife of 43 who still the light of my life, Two of my hero are My wife’s sisters Catholic NUNS one that have spent 30 years of her life in Africa living in a brick hunt with no doors no windows no running water and no electricity, helping anyone in need with simple daily chores ,teaching many necessity like cleanness, sowing, cooking and many other things the others one working 50 years with the unfortunate cooking and helping them get back on their feet. I can tell you with certitude that they have NEVER preached to me even knowing that I have not practice the Catholic religions for most of the 43 years they have know me, they are in their 80s now kind retired and I must admit that they are living a pretty good live in their respective Convent. They have dedicated their lives not to preach but to teach by their actions even though I do not agree with their organization on many subject I have the highest respect for them, my wife and I treat them like Queens when visiting them or them visiting us, My values are Christian base I am pro-life ,my favorite charity is the Catholic Church here in the States because I do think they are really helping a lot folks in needs and have seen it myself, but do others internationally.
I don’t know or claim to understand why some have the need to preach and other not.. What I have discovered the last few years is that many do not seem be able to see when they are getting over zealous and start preaching, do I believe that they are doing it on purpose to hurt.? Absolutely not they are basically loving people I am pretty sure, that been said I will not let them get away with anything and if needed can and will get down to business ,because I do know that preaching to a recovering cult member is absolutely not the way to go. After they have been somewhat over their experiences of life in a cult and are really ready to look for something else it should be their choice to decide when, who, and what . At that point they are not confused, angry and are physiologically more stable , have a much clearer mind and can make better decisions. Whatever they chose at that time and point in their lives it is ok with me, myself all I want is for them to get there with all their ability to choose ,What you guys are doing when trying to preach is completely counterproductive and are taking their right to choose. HERE this and HERE it WELL if you keep doing it on here knowing very well that you are doing more harm than Good,I will treat you like Evil Self Center Egoist Preachers and will act accordingly .AGAIN THIS FORUM AND THIS SITE IS NOT ABOUT YOU AND THE BIBLE. And on here I do have all the buttons necessary to send you into hyper space.
Joe thank you for your respond, I do know and understand that it is a very slippery slow for you to comment on. As you can see I am also struggling with all of it and have been ever since I have left RSE, will I find peace and understanding someday I certainly hope so but if and when I do it will be for me and me alone.
Myself do think that people that try to convince others to their believe are THEMSELVES not convince of it and are reinforcing their own believe that way.
To respond to Duk about having a forum on here for anyone to be able to express their self about religious subject or any other believe. ABSOLUTELY OUT OF QUESTIONS. Please do not come and tell us about free speech and the right of others to express them self anyway they want. This site is privately own and supported by no others then our self, and the mission has been is and always will be to help cult members their family and friend get a start at recovering from their ordeal, by providing them support, information, and a safe place for them to be able to express them self and share their experience with others likeminded people without having to put up with so call self appointed saviors. Duk a site like this one is very hard and costly to keep on the net, it is very time consuming and take time away from our loved one. We keep it free of everything from commercials to spammers and also from preachers of any kind.We have been very tolerant so far, but have come to the conclusion that is a lost cause trying to be understanding and nice with self appointed Saviors. No more
If you are not happy with the way we are doing thing on here I would suggest that you start your own site and I guaranty you that you want see me on it trying to push my views or demanding equality time and space.
Thank you everyone
Oldone
I Value Things Not For What They Worth But For What They Represent

Duk
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Duk » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:44 pm

Totally understand.

I dont know if Grace for example has gone through all the RSE brainwash, because if she didnt I would totally understand you, I have talk with a couple of priests, and friends about how to believe again after a being on a cult,
and really I cant find many answers after talking with them, because they just wouldnt understand all the process of being at RSE and then leaving because they havent been there. And the Bible will be very scary or annoying specially if it is throwed like a baseball at 100mph is very hard to see it and understand it, it is not as big R books which is instantly seductive.

Although the gospel explained in books have been great for me, not only quotes, but is very funny, when people find the bible annoying is because there something wrong with them, and when I see christians friends who have been alcoholics, drug addicts, sex addicts, and now the gospel have mantein them sober for years, then I say there must be some kind of treasure there, yeah is difficult to find out, is not easy specially after being on a cult, I havent found it yet I dont know if I ever will, but hope is still there.

Duk
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Duk » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:00 pm

Anyways, Ive listen there is someone named Jeff who
helps in these kind of topics I think, does anyone have his email?

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Robair
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Robair » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:53 pm

Hello Duk
Thank you for understanding and hope that you find peace,something we are all longing for.
I think you are talking about Jeff Adams he is a good friend of David and David will probably be able to help you with that.
And never forget that all of us at EMF are also struggling With the same problems that everyone else.
Oldone
I Value Things Not For What They Worth But For What They Represent

joe sz
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by joe sz » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:06 am

I agree w Oldone: This discussion could be fruitful in the right context. There are many 'christian' related sites on the Net. perhaps Duk and others can join one of them.

Those recovering from RSE and similar groups like Prophet's CUT in my case, have special needs. ex-CUT members find catholicism and protestant fundamentalism troublesome due to so many similarities in CUT doctrine that ripped off many Christian and Catholic ideas. Some of those ex-members joined evangelical churches and others tried Catholicism. Some I know found peace in their local churches or parishes while others soon dropped out due to too many 'triggers' related to their cult experience. There is no absolute message that will suffice for everyone. A real turn-off is the penchant for witnessing among evangelicals who become obsessed with saving souls [le Great Commission ad nauseum]. I have sat for hours listening to evangelical preachers trying to convince me how wrong the catholic church is, for example. It is like listening to a lousy song stuck on repeat...yet I try to remain patient.

ex- RSEmembers would find the fundamentalist endtimes doctrines especially offputting. The Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsay sold millions back in the day and despite its horrible Biblical flaws remains the basis for Left Behind series of books popular with millions of evangelicals.

Oldone, I am 63 also, although my financial circumstance dictates that I continue to pretend to be younger w no plans to retire until dead. I have a 13 yr old to put through college before the psych hospital sends me packing! My one ace is to continue to help with exit counseling as long as my brain remains alert enough. My other is to return to steady art production. I mention this because I find the recovery process from cults as an opportunity to learn and "stay forever young" [Bob Dylan] learning new things and improving on old ideas. Every client is a new challenge.

I think that EMF thrives on that premise as well.

Another Dimension60
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:30 am

Duk - I wasn't there for the specific of the "zero point" teachings (I wonder if she stole that from Greg Bradden?) - and I'm not sure I understand what you're looking for re God as a character..... Do you want God to be the old man with a beard sitting on a throne character?.... .... I do believe that the Ultimate is not a Being, per se - rather All That Is/ Principle/ Essence -- most importantly and specifically = Love. True Love is beyond the egoic personal/or specific character -- although we can learn/experience Love through a specific person or character. And, Love is very personal = is the Who we truly are, Is Present everywhere as the everywhere/every what.
God as Principle doesn't mean not personally Present or not personally concerned -- and, I think we humans all have the need to feel as if we're personally/individually recognized/listened to/helped - and that is why in all the true Spiritual Traditions there are the Saints, the Buddhas, the Prophets, the Teachers/Gurus/Masters who continue to Be present and attentive beyond the death of their bodies.
Anyway - can you elaborate a little more on your concern?

freemysoul
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by freemysoul » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:44 am

Call me paranoid :lol: , but I think Duk and Grace are the same person.

I am one of the ex-RSE members that is now a user of this site, so thoughtfully created to ease my transition from full blooded Ramster, back to reality, who finds the preaching and bible quoting offensive. Someone using a quote from the bible to make a point as Joe did, doesn't offend me at all, because after listening to Joe and reading the things he has written, I believe I understand his intent.
As I reflect on my time at RSE and what has happened since, it isn't the leaving that has affected me nearly as much as deciphering and clearing the thoughts and emotions from my time there. It isn't not being there that keeps me awake at night, its the memory of finding my card, or the joy I remember feeling upon walking into the great hall, and how I go about making that all ok in my soul. Its also the disgust I hear in the voice of current members when I tell them exactly what I think of JZ/Ramtha now that sticks with me to process later. Tell me how a bible quote fits those situations? Strike that, it was a rhetorical question.
What has helped me through this experience has been reading about how other people have done it, or just knowing that there are others who have. It puts those couple thousand people who believe like I use to into a better perspective with the rest of humanity, and allows me the freedom to express to others that there is life after RSE.
To me, preaching and bible thumping are repulsive. Not because I hate religious zealots or their philosophy, but because they remind me so much of the quagmire I just pulled myself free from.

Duk
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Duk » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:21 am

@ad60 Well basically being at RSE was a spooky breakthrough experience for me, because in one side it kinda opened my subconcious and I became supermegaconciouss of everything in my life and it was out of control (specially my mind) and in the other side it blinded me for my real thruth, my real story, my real needs, and after going to therapy for weeks, cause I was literally going crazy, I remove the blindfolds and I was able to see the real stuff that was going on, on my life, and I remember then one catholic retreat I went on my youth, and remember all the simple stuff I got in there, the amazing experience it was, completely different from an RSE event, I could make a masive list of things that were completly diferent, but the diference was in the heart, I was able to experience massive love, uncontainable love, that I could hug anyone forever and make friends easily enjoy life, just wake up fully alive, it was amazing.

I stayed with that experience like for 6 months, little by little I was loosing it, getting obsesed with stuff and getting away, and getting away...until the white book came across, dang! horrible thing!

So you get the picture now, not the whole picture of course, but a little more clearer I guess, so I think that is the treasure of the gospel, but I cant find it with my mind, I cant, is not with the mind, RSE is a lot of mind, bunch of mind but zero heart.

So thats why is that I want to return to believe fully in the God that Jesus talks about in the bible, maybe that way I could experience again that unconteinable love, btw thats why some preachers do preach because they cant contain their experience for themselves and want to share it, the problem is that they preach like throwing 100mph baseballs, and thats a problem, BIG problem.

Duk
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Duk » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:31 am

Call me paranoid , but I think Duk and Grace are the same person.
PARANOID!!!! HAHA 8)

Chill out bro there no way we can be unless you believe we all are one..one...one.. haha just kidding.
Tell me how a bible quote fits those situations? Strike that, it was a rhetorical question.
I have no f*ckin freackin idea bro.

As I said before this thread has gone completly to another way; "preachers, no preachers, proselytising, banning, bible, no bible blablablabla" lets all stick to the thread ok?

joe sz
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by joe sz » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:51 am

god as character could mean what are god's traits?

Traditional Islam gives 99 'names' or traits of Allah:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Islam

only one is truly harsh, the Avenger. This also comes from Jewish tradition: Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord.

one post used that old canard of the 'old man with the beard' in the sky which has been a crude stereotype used by anti-religionists and unschooled atheists to put down believers as if that is what they believe in.

Look to JZ--her brain produced her god as an 8 ft tall 'you are so beautiful' male with radiant clothes and black eyes. As time wore on, her creature's mysteriousness wore out. Once the big guy was trademarked, he totally became JZ's mind puppet. All a devotee could see of him was JZ's face and body in a costume. Great theater if you like that kind of thing...a short male impersonator pretending to be 8 ft tall on stage with an invisible beard.

The 99 names of Islam have a richer indication of the character of God or Allah as character if that is what you are looking for.

As for a Hindu approach, there is Advaita which indicates that all we can say or express re the 'character' of Brahman in the negative: Ineffable, infinite, incomprehensible, not-limited, invisible, etc. Any thing said in a positive or affirmative sense is wrong in advaita philosophy.

I find these approaches helpful because they remind me of my speck self in an infinite universe---awesome!

and sometimes scary, like a lion roaring at a mouse...

the character of the 'numinous' according to Rudolf Otto can cause the mysterium tremens:
...elemental experience of apprehending the numinous itself. In such moments of apprehension, said Otto,

we are dealing with something for which there is only one appropriate expression, mysterium tremendum. . . . The feeling of it may at times come sweeping like a gentle tide pervading the mind with a tranquil mood of deepest worship. It may pass over into a more set and lasting...

Another Dimension60
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:44 pm

Duk - did you get my pm? - check at the top of the web page where it says messages.
I used the bearded man/God thing to see where Duk was coming from or what he meant by 'character' -- -- I understand a little better.
My first Dialogue experience i described, for years, as being in an ocean of love - and attributed that to Ramtha -- it took 16 years for David, not necessarily a Christian, to point out the reality of 'where two or three are gathered' for me to realize that it was the gathering of like minded/like spirited sincere people in the name/way of love that I was experiencing - not Ramtha.
Even though this may be off this topic, I'd like to address a few things here that are also spoken of elsewhere. First, the White Book -- David did extensive interviews with its editor who, as it turns out, was really mostly the author - who used what he referred to as "the perennial philosophy" to make sense out of ramtha's incoherencies. (do a search here on White Book for more info on that). The "teachings" since the Dialogue/Intensive/White Book days are 180 degrees different with the establishment of "The School"/RSE. The functioning and degree of abuse and brainwashing techniques of "The School" are also 180 degrees from the content of the White Book.
Finding one's card - is simply that - = when we find a card, we are drawn to our energy on that card - whether it pictures a Toyota truck or a million dollars or a colored scribble - i.e. we're not "manifesting" the content of the card nor does finding our card mean that we'll manifest the content of the card - --- The irony for me is that after i left ramthaland and was physically exhausted to the point I sought medical help and went to a naturapath - she started to explain to me how we are drawn to where our consciousness is!!! -- for her that was about making healthy food and lifestyle choices! - she couldn't hear that I knew that principle better than her!!! So the principle is valid -- it just gets twisted in ramthaland. So - for all those who feel special or accomplished or that ramtha's teaching are proven by finding their card -- be aware -- you were drawn to a card, period -- if you had held that 5x7 for awhile and drawn nothing on it, you could have still found the card. It's more relevant to look at your everyday life and be aware of what you're drawn to. .... For instance - those of us who have been in abusive relationships will more often than not be drawn to another abusive person until we become aware; and, if we're sincere in our wanting to experience God's Love, we'll be drawn to loving experiences. ... or, often for me, as I sincerely want to know and understand God/God's world, I'll be drawn to a book, or tapes, or a conversation, or a person that illuminates for me. - and I don't have to be bombarded by a 1000 other people in bitter cold or sweltering heat through mud and horse poo to be drawn to what I need!

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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Kensho » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:07 pm

What if God is perceived as a verb (as action), rather than as a noun (a personality or thing with fixed characteristics)?

When I left RSE one of the deepest struggles that came forward was reconciling the reference to god as something that lived within. In RSE, it seems that there were two gods; a personal one and an all pervasive one. Most of the so called disciplines had to do with attempting to program or communicate with the personal-god thing. That personal one was often defined as the sub-conscious mind and although I do now disagree with the philosophy of RSE that promotes that by simply focusing on something, the personal god or sub-conscious mind can be programmed to deliver that object of focus, I do believe that what one rests in the mind most consistently may ultimately hold sway over subsequent thoughts, speech, behaviours and physical actions. Thus it may be more of a cause and condition thing coming together on a relative level than a power of divine nature that is responding to a command.

With respect to the all pervasive God, RSE pretty much skipped over addressing that subject, other than to say it was the state of enlightenment or of omniscience. That state was not further elaborated upon during the time I was in RSE other than to say it was the state of the highest frequency, referred to in RSE as "the unlimited unknown". It seems to me that one who claims to have attained and further claims to exist in that state (Ramtha) would be able to offer a better description than that. So I am led to believe that JZR has no idea of what that state means or even what that state would be like. Surely one who exists in a state of omniscience would not be troubled by the things that the Ramtha character often is. Similarly the RSE followers that I have questioned, both while I was in RSE and after leaving, with respect to how will they know that they have attained the ultimate destiny (RSE's words, not mine), still refer to themselves in that state as an individual with qualities such as power to....

Only when I contemplate God as a verb can I find peace, understanding and harmony with all views, be they religious or even perhaps delusional (as in RSE). So now when in conversation someone refers to God as this or that, having this or that quality or even taking possession if it as in RSE's references to 'my god', I find it helpful to consider that what is perhaps being referenced to is a verb - or even a potential action. That action may be as simple as the expression of an innate all pervasive, loving compassion that is not dependent upon an ego, a personality, character or story line.

Just my thoughts.
With love, Kensho
"Don't let any person bring you so low as to hate them."
Booker T. Washington

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Robair
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Robair » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:23 pm

Hello everyone.
What a great tread this is turning out to be with everyone expressing them self and letting their felling and understanding (not believes ) how they feel and what they have been true and learned .That kind of exchanges is most welcome and really encourage on EMF.
Freemysoul ; Let me tell you what I think about Joe and keep in mind that I have never met him in person only on video,I am not sure about that 63 years old claim he does not look anywhere close to that and his mind is incredibly Sharpe and match his knowledge. I know that Joe is a Catholic since the start, Joe do not preach in anyway, but He has thought me a lot by is action his writing and understand of our physiological not so stable mind coming out a cult. Joe has probably brought me closer to the Catholic religion by not pestering me or anyone with his believe but instead have been on this site from the get go sharing his vast knowledge and understanding with all of us. So if he one in a while he use a an extract of the Bible it is not to preach but perhaps to make us understand something. He mentioned something earlier about what Scammers and Charlatans like JZ use the religions mainly Catholic to brainwash us even farther by finding all that is wrong with it to boost their own market. As you can see on one of my earlier post I have found some good in one religion I think what I am trying to say is that this days my understanding seem to be coming more from knowledge and less from hate perhaps that mean that my mind is less clutter so think clearer. (Hey JZ don’t take this as a weakness on my part, you still a Scam, a phony, a Charlatan I really don’t like you and never will and not going away anytime soon.)
Anyway Joe I hope I am not putting pressure on you far from that I am just expressing my appreciation and acknowledge your work in helping us. I know you have lot of courage and dedication ,at 63 putting your obligation as a father first, a great quality that most Catholic men have, as I can testified to it having been raised by a wonderful father and mother.
And to Grace and the like of you; don’t get me wrong I still do not like or even pretend to like Preachers of any kind and bible quoters so don’t come on here you will be send into cyber space. :twisted:
Thank you everyone
Oldone
I Value Things Not For What They Worth But For What They Represent

joe sz
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by joe sz » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:56 pm

JZ/Ramtha and her "Church of the I Am' actually did thrust everyone of you (and me by default) into this discussion on this thread.
You all bought into her claim that "Ramtha is Christ for you for this age", an early White Book era teaching. You bought the idea that some big guy with a beard in the sky was your "god," and that he would remain 'invisible' so you would not worship him or his "image."

This is a parody of the very religious Christian culture JZ so came to hate because it somehow betrayed her, did not 'protect her' from all the alleged abuse she talks about in her books and self-stories.

R became her substitute YHWH---'no one sees the face of God and lives'---except her 8)

two or three struggles come to my mind: If JZ (or her spook Ramtha if you see an independent demon/angel/god there) deliberately distorted the traditional teaching of Christianity to "right it" in her view, what was that original teaching?
I have struggled with that one as CUT/Theosophy not only skewed and skewered Christiniaty but Hinduism and Buddhism and science and history as well. My struggle has been to try to "right" that whole mess in my spiritual world.

most ex-members choose not to go that route---it is enormously time consuming and dismaying especially when one finds one "expert" disagreeing with another in scholarship. But also rewarding when one finds a chunk of gold or real wisdom here and there.

A second struggle is to sort out what the experience of the cult did to me/you socially, intellectually, financially, politically, and emotionally.

A third is science and history. What did JZ distort to fit her singular, psychic intuition about how things are? How much of that distortion is yet buried deep in your head :?:

as an aside, for Duk, there is a quote from Paul in Corinthians that states: Do you know that we will judge angels.?

Whether as skeptic or as theologian, according to that we are following NT scripture by "judging" this angel Ramtha and its teaching. We have that right no matter how you cut this issue. Keep in mind that exercising good judgment is not being judgmental...

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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Marie » Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:31 pm

My "bible" for the past year or so has been "Losing My Religion" by William Lobdell. I used to have what I considered a strong faith in "something" prior to losing my family to rse. I generally believed in god, attended a christian church, although never entirely subscribed to all the dogma, but it made me happy and I liked the principles as they encouraged mostly healthy emotional living. I am not bitter, angry or disillusioned about religion or god, it just become "clear" to me that people believe whatever they want, it doesn't necessarily "make it so" no matter how fervently they believe. It just means it's what they believe. It actually makes more sense to me that there is no god and I am really ok with that. It is in fact, somewhat freeing for me. It scared me somewhat at first, as I also have belonged to a certain 12-step group in which a belief in god is a cornerstone. But as Lobdell also describes in his book, I just can no longer emotionally justify a belief in god... In other words, I just don't feel it anymore. I am of the belief that people have been believing in gods, singular or plural, since the beginning of time... as a means of giving one hope, justifying their actions, controlling societies, explaining schizophrenic audio and visual hallucinations, and a means for sociopathic and narcissistic personalities to feed their insatiable need for adoration, power and control. It's just used as sort of a catchall for things that we don't want to accept or understand.
"That's me in the corner -- losing my religion" -- REM

Duk
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Duk » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:43 pm

It been an intersting thread, the other day I came to nice conclusion, well, several conclusions:


1) RSE basically twisted my ideas so bad, that is almost impossible to believe again another set of beliefs, if it is possible it would take a lot of time, so is not healthy to try to adopt forcefully another beliefs like the one that God actually has a character and that he can get mad or jelous.

2) I wont be able to find or comprehend God with my Mind, or even believe in my Mind, I think that, at least inthe short term, but I can find him and begin a personal relationship with him in my heart which is truly different, I think that should be the major and basic goal of every religion, because if we see how all religions begin to debate with each other on who has the ultimate thruth or not, it becomes a mess, a real mess, I think you get what I mean.

3) I think all is matter of choice (dont wanna sound quantum though), a lot of decisions have to be made, because everyone has the freedom to believe in what he wants to believe.


4) This is a nice forum.

freemysoul
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by freemysoul » Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:20 pm

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone.
This has been a great forum, with so many different perspectives and opinions that have managed to remain civil.
This discussion could go on forever as all of our understandings and beliefs in 'god' or something grander than just our human body is in a state of constant flux. Growing, waning, becoming more educated through the ideas from another's experience. However you slice it, and the reason I know this discussion has stirred up emotion in me, is that it is such a personal thing. God. God to me, or you. When you have lived through a great bastardization of something so personal, that leaves you with more questions than answers, it becomes even more so.
With rse, I thought I had found all of the answers to the 'god' question. It all was delivered in such a way to make complete sense, and being disillusioned with the church and understanding of 'god' as I had been raised to understand it, I bought into it hook line and sinker.
When that bubble burst, and I saw through the lies, manipulation and outright mind control, I had only added more questions to the ones I had prior to rse.
Will I ever have a better understanding of what 'god' is or what it will mean to me? I don't honestly know.
What I do know now, that I didn't know then, is what I want god to be, and for right now, that is enough

WofthesunEofthemoon
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:22 pm

I have hesitated before adding anything to this great thread. So much has been said, and so much of it very meaningful to me, too, in many ways. I have always found it very difficult to express my deepest spiritual thoughts and feelings in any other way than verse, or poetic prose, which usually comes to me when I am not immersed in my daily round, or comtemplating that there may be 'nothing out there, at all'. (A useful exercise, in itself, though, if one has ever had a tendency to believe that one has to be 'good', or God won't approve, or one will lose one's place 'up there' after one dies. I always wondered if I had been using God as a 'crutch', and/or final arbiter, as it were, and not doing/being from my own heart and ethical value system, just for the sake of being true to myself, with no hope of reward. As Marie has intimated, however, that view-point can be a little frightening to begin with.) I digress. To go on, I do know that there are many who hate poetry, as it is not their thing, so to them, I apologize if I am adding my four-pence worth to this thread with, yet again, more poetry.

THE NAME

In the rocks and in the trees,
And in the whisper of the breeze,
In the meadow, on the plain,
Or in the lashing of the rain.

In the thunder round the hills,
In the song the sky-lark trills,
In the desert's baking sands,
Or in the touch of gentle hands.

The heart is hard, the heart is light,
Or quiivering with lion's might.
The heart is heavy, or is sure,
Or gentle, loving, kind, or sore,

But of the things the heart may be,
The Heart of Hearts begins with Thee,
And Thou art in All Things, the same,
The mystic, silent, nameless Name.

Another Dimension60
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:48 am

Joe and WE - each of your last posts, each in your own way, eloquently spoke to/ articulated the heart essence of our common journey. Thank you.

joe sz
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by joe sz » Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:09 am

let us keep paddling.....

marie, I reviewed Lobdell's Losing my Religion on Amazon/if interested scroll down:
http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Religion-R ... geNumber=3
I ask at the end of my review what might Lobdell report about his spiritual status in 20 years or so?

adding to this God or noGod debate, I often wondered if atheists were merely responding to what God is not because all our ideas of God sound so "human" and contrived to them, especially when one reads Dawkins 'The God Delusion'

Humor tends to even out this discussion for me---- I often turn to this prayer from Robert Frost:
"Forgive, O Lord, my little jokes on Thee
And I'll forgive Thy great big one on me."
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/ ... bert_Frost

WofthesunEofthemoon
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:58 am

Hi, Joe,

I had lost touch with what a great poet Robert Frost was. I have been online at the Literature Network tonight catching up with his work. For anybody who is interested, amongst so many others, "Tuft of Flowers" is well worth reading, and rich with deep insight.

Keeping on paddling with the God v. no God debate, having followed up the link you offered with regard to reviews of Lobdell's "Losing my Religion", I hope you will not mind me quoting here from your review: "faith in God relies on a slim intuition at the borders of our testable reality." Mmmm, yes, I do agree.

Marie
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Marie » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:42 am

faith in God relies on a slim intuition at the borders of our testable reality."
Mine's been tested... god lost... ;-)
"That's me in the corner -- losing my religion" -- REM

joe sz
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by joe sz » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:03 pm

I hope you will not mind me quoting here from your review: "faith in God relies on a slim intuition at the borders of our testable reality." Mmmm, yes, I do agree.
did i really write that? Some insight must have slipped in...

The corollary is that faith implies an awarenes of some kind of relationship or exchange, but this is where things get tricky. When is it "God" talking?
At least one Mormon scholar has agreed.

"Our blessing is that we believe in personal revelation. Our curse is that we believe in personal revelation," Robert Millet, a religion professor and former dean of religious education at Brigham Young University, told the LDS Church-owned newspaper Deseret News in 2003, soon after Mitchell's arrest. "There is a risk associated with the position we take toward God's ability to speak to you and me."
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/1 ... al-action/

Duk
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Duk » Mon May 30, 2011 5:32 am

Been there, done that..

Thank God, now believing in a God with character, is not a problem anymore, now I do believe, how I did it? by alot of discernment, time, effort, and the culmination of my effort was my approach to the Word of God and the Sacraments, and.. Im so happy about that..(sigh)


:D

Vanilla
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Vanilla » Mon May 30, 2011 9:44 pm

I question all religion and all spirituality after finding I have been deceived by RSE.

Not about to let someone else tell me what the unknown is. Anymore.

I think its called that for a reason.

I think we are raised with parents and when we become adults we look for our parents again-in religion.

There is such a thing as right and wrong..good and bad..that which hurts and helps us..RSE taught us there wasn't and to be god you had to be unthinking, unfeeling and nonjudgmental.

Imaginary friends/parents/god are there for a reason, to help us out of hard times.

Ramtha was like a parent to us, helping us out of something we needed escape from.

God to me, is something that will always guide me to the right decision. But I have been looking to this all my life. I still make the decisions using my past- and what I know- to guide me. I have never had a revelation or heard a voice. If I felt intuitive, that was just my feeling of the circumstances weighing them...based on what I know.

I have no proof, just a wish. Kind of like what drew me to RSE.

Ramtha used to say we are god --yet not how we are.
Ramtha used to say god know what you know..I never understood that. So vague.

Jeff Adams
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Re: From Point Zero to a God with a Character

Unread post by Jeff Adams » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:02 am

As I sorted through some things on EMF, I saw some posts I missed - posts which mentioned me.
Yes, as you all know I am a Christian pastor, and from time to time some of you ask me things about spiritual stuff, confidentially and privately. However, this thread is open to many. The main thing I would like to say to any person leaving any cult, church, or other spiritual organization is to not quickly jump into any new spiritual organization of any kind. It is far better to skeptically look into things, first. Get your critical thinking back before you go jumping down any other rabbit holes.
Yes, I do fully believe in my own faith, but it is dangerous to jump out of a dangerous cult such as R$E and then into something else, somewhat blindly. No one should enter into any religion or spiritual thing without using good reason to evaluate validities and potential consequences. Even if one did jump right into a healthy religion, blindly doing so can seriously take away from one's own emotional, mental, and spiritual stability.. Blindly jumping into things is seriously risky. Why would you want to do that regarding spiritual things? As a pastor, I recommend everyone weigh the evidence before concluding things. There really are churches and other wholesome-looking other organizations out there that operate and function just like cults, and have the same dangerous and negative impacts on individuals, families, and communities. That's my take on it. I hope it helps.

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