Jeff Adams

[Whatchamacallit]

Though I haven't had the pleasure of meeting Jeff Adams in person, we have some mutual friends/acquaintances. I believe he's a sincere person. Hopefully, he'll be a poster in the future, on EMF. After years in RSE, listening to religions be bashed by the Intolerant One, it's nice to see that a variety of viewpoints can be represented in one place.

Jeff spoke on behalf of the faith community. He has a blog that includes a post about his talk at the LARSE2 gathering at Yelm Middle School.

http://www.paramountchristian.org/jeff- ... peech.html

[Lost in Space]

Viewing the fifth tape of this year's LARSE gathering, I was impressed by Mr. Adams.

Begin to believe that the reason for JZ's speaking out against organized religion (and the reason behind much of what she says and does) has to do with her bank balance. Of course she would see organized religions such as Christianity as a threat - they give away for free what she portrays the school as selling. And people who are satisfied customers of a church, temple or mosque are poor prospects as clients. Conversely, disatified customers of hers are some of those seeking help from organized religions.

[Whatchamacallit]

Lost,

I spent many years of my younger life (childhood and young adulthood) attending churches. I was raised Protestant Congregationalist. As is common with families, my mother usually took us kids to church most Sundays. When I was about 12, she stopped attending and to this day I don't know why that is. She was very active in the choir, etc. For the most part, I enjoyed church.

When I got older, I had more questions. Especially since, at a very young age, and until this day, I had clairvoyant experiences with such frequency, that part of me was always looking for "more answers". Long story short, one day I asked my minister (naive I was), what he thought about the book, The Lost Years of Jesus. Oops. Wrong question to have asked him. I received a stinging reply about "not going there". That really bothered me a lot. WHY NOT "go there" ? I did go there. I got the book, and I stopped attending that church because I didn't like being felt to feel shame for asking him a sincere question. This was many years ago, and he was an elderly minister. Perhaps today, such a sharp response wouldn't be so common, but perhaps it would. I don't know.

In any case, one thing led to another and I ended up in RSE, still searching for answers.

In private chats with friends and family in "real life" (offline), I have shared something with them that I'll share here, too. Having met people who wouldn't, or didn't want to, settle for "it's a mystery", when they wanted to know more about the "why" of life, it has always bothered me to see people searching so sincerely but not coming up with answers. I mean answers that are more than asking us to accept that some things are a mystery. I'd prefer the concrete reason over the abstraction. Perhaps that was a weakness in my personality.

Still today, when I think about the numbers of people who attend all manner of religious institutions, or spiritual groups, or cults, all over the world, because they are sincerely looking for God and the meaning of life, it can bring me to tears. I also get angry at God for what seems to be a cosmic joke. It seems cruel to have people sincerely wanting to understand LIFE, from a spiritual perspective, and not get answers that are validated as true, in this physical world.
LIS, back to your comment about JZ speaking out against religions; yes, she sure left no religion unscathed.

Though I do not attend a religious .... place of worship, I have. I've seen some very human-ness and hypocrisy among the human beings from time to time. But, I've also seen a lot of caring, warm, sincere, sensitive people there, too. They work together to form a community, that reaches out to one another in their respective congregations. The people make the most of their current, very human lives. They weren't trying to be Gods-in-flesh, denying a human experience. They were living more "in the moment" than any student in RSE that I've ever met.

I think there's something to be learned from that - at least there was/is for me.

[Lost in Space]

Well, that is such a coincidence. I grew up in a Protestant Church too, but they have different names here in Canada. And my Mother left the Church when I was about the same age. But she told me why. She (like your Mom) was in the choir. The chief Minister and one of her fellow choir members had an affair - they were both married. Also, Mom was a volunteer at the after-school club for kids who otherwise would have gone home to empty houses after school. She put a lot of herself into that program (she had been a teacher). The Church closed down that program, and decided to do some interior decorating with the funds. Yes, religious groups, and their leaders are flawed human beings. We all are.
I am not a Churchgoer, except for weddings and funerals and such. I am not an atheist. I am not a Pagan. I have spent a lot of time searching for answers in the writings of a number of different faiths, philosophies, and also, have explored the occult. And know what? I agree, nobody has the definitive absolute right answer. But in all fairness, my Sunday school teachers and Ministers never refused to answer a question or got mad at me for asking. No matter how weird or irreverent my question was, they usually said "I'm glad you asked", it gave them a chance to hone their arguments against evil. Dunno what was with that Minister you had.
My daughter as a teenager has embraced Christianity. She wears a cross, belongs to a Christian youth group, and does volunteer work. I have done nothing to prevent her, and I won't, so long as she doesn't join the disciples of the truly terrifying Christian cult leader presently causing trouble in the town where she lives.
Anyway, in spite of nobody having THE answer, and in spite of the fact that I do not belong to any particular faith community, still, I BELIEVE. And I almost did join RSE, too. For me, it was my main personal failing, rabid curiosity. Also, I fell in love, but that's another story.
I like the idea of Mr. Adam's church being non-denominational.
And sounds like there are no trappings, or mumbo jumbo, just Bible study, discussion, and community. Hey, I wouldn't knock it.

[Jeff Adams]

Apologies in advance for the delays there will inevitably be in my appearances on here. My schedule is very full. However, I will make an effort to keep engaged with you through this venue. Sleeping is overrated anyway, right?

It is too bad that many of us have negative experiences with churches, preachers, Christians, and others. Yet, it all can serve to shape us and make us better people in the long-run. I don't know what was going on in the mind of the preacher that responded to Whatchamacallit in an ineffective manner. It's a shame it came down that way. Hopefully, we preachers will handle ourselves better than that in the future when people are simply seeking the truth - searching for something more than what they've found.

The amazing thing is that some who have been so mistreated still find themselves being open to someone like me. This is truly remarkable and it is much appreciated. Thanks for being open to having me here, communicating with you. My hope is that my involvement serves as a benefit to help at least some along in life. I am as flawed as any of you. My life is chock full of stupid mistakes, too. I never see myself as better than anyone else.

I still can see the facts when they are right in front of me. What about the "do unto others" passage out of the Bible. I have no problem with people exposing who I am and what I'm about, so I have no problem exposing others - especially scam artists who destroy others' lives. Enough is enough! I may not be better than them, but I never purposely try to scam people. Nor do I ever want to hurt people for my own personal gain. If frauds hurt because they are exposed for what they are, too bad. Didn?t they choose to be exposed like that in another life? ? I say that tongue-and-cheek.

Additionally, Lost In Space mentioned the money trail. May this be a tidbit of even more encouraging news about how we'll be doing church in Yelm: Paramount Christian Church does not pass an offering plate!

I am not trying to persuade anyone to attend our services, join the church, become a Christian or anything like that. This is just information that I thought would be helpful for you to know more about who I am and what I'm like. FYI: I think most preachers are alright - except I?m a goofball sometimes.

Relax. There may be a preacher on here, now, but he?s a fairly normal guy (if there is such a thing), who is likely the least judgmental preacher you?ll ever find. I have no issues with RSE students, but I do with the frauds behind the destructive money machine.

?Lock elbows with people that are going down, and you?ll go down with them!?

Thanks again for tolerating me. I?ll shut up, now.

[G2G]

Very refreshing to hear from you. I grew up catholic AND terrified. We weren't ALLOWED to question; it was a "sin." So as a teen when I had many, many questions, I found myself filled with guilt (hence my original posting name here). After I married into another culture and had children, I became a woman "possessed" with reading all I could find and learn about Jesus; and also, about the beliefs of other religions. I found so many similarities. Compassion exists, as well as the extreme fundamentalism existing still today-producing those willing to kill for God-something that is a near oxymoron to me. Where RSE confused me, more than ANYTHING I'd read about anything elsewhere, was the "Jesus doesn't give a hoot and he's not coming back" (even though I'd stopped attending mass years ago, I'd still bop in at night to have my own time with the Essence that Is, God. It surprised me that it "hurt" so much to hear that statement in a lecture, "Jesus doesn't give a hoot." I understand we are responsible for our actions. When I had a disagreement with my spouse the other day and found I had allowed myself to lose my temper, I was disappointed with myself and not my spouse-it's my responsibility and desire to look within and find the real "root" of what triggered my response. Truly, it would be wonderful to know the words of Jesus without the interference of those who did interfere, or worse, destroy. The reason for me is I honestly want to live the true words he spoke and taught, and where was he indeed during all of those years?! I've been to India (family still there), and there is a belief among the population that Jesus, or "Issa," as name there, was in India for a time. How do we know he wasn't, when so much has been excluded, tampered with, destroyed or misinterpreted? The answer I've always been given from the Christian community is that "no one can tamper with the Bible because it is said etc. " and of course, Muslims say the same about the Quran. Simply because it is "said so" doesn't imply no one tampered or destroyed. My feeling is mankind did indeed "tamper with the evidence." The only words of Christ I therefore, can practice, is this. "Love one another as you love yourself" and "do unto others as you would have done unto you."

So many of us want to know because we truly want to do the right thing as humans, and not mere animals.

Thank you for taking the time to offer assistance to those in need. Now that is God at work, in action. :)

[David McCarthy]

With pastor?s Jeff Adams and Russ Blake..
there has not been a featherweight of judgment nor Bible preaching ever spoken to me.
They have a genuine desire to understand the workings of RSE to assist former members gain back their hearts and minds.
It will take many hands to lift and remove the RSE rock that has crushed so many lives.
I have come to regard Jeff as a good friend,
And in time..
Goddess willing?
A fellow pagan..

Chuckle

Welcome to EMF Jeff?

David

[Jeff Adams]

It angers me that so many people have been hurt by leaders of the compound just outside the west side of Yelm, WA. This anger is stirred all the more as I meet more former RSE students. My observations thus far are that the vast majority of former and current RSE students are nice people. Sure, I know there are many experiences former RSE students have of mistreatment, abandonment, etc., when leaving the cult. In my opinion their misbehavior is born from the manipulation of their selfish and self-destructive leaders. Hopefully, they will become increasingly uncomfortable as they are "mind-controlled" into ruining more and more relationships. I hope they come around, too.

Seeking the truth is a good thing. Asking questions as you seek the truth is wise. Far too many Christians have blindly accepted what they've been told. Christianity is not a blind leap into the dark, but a conscious step into the light. It is a thinking religion that requires engaging the mind.

Thank you for all for opening up on subjects related to the field with which I work on a regular basis. I will try to use caution so as not to make everything I discuss all about religion. It is reasonable that I would engage with you in this, but I know that my "preaching" is best left to church services. However, if you'll patiently remind me of the urgent questions/difficulties you have with the Bible, Christianity, Jesus, or whatever things you may want to send my way, I'll try to get to them. If any of you feel neglected, know that it is not intentional. 'Just remind me. I've got a lot on my plate, and sometimes I simply forget.

Occasionally, I may have to answer a question with, "I don't know." I'm constantly learning, and hope to be sufficient with the answers I provide.

Now, I must let you know (if you don't already) at least one other thing that I bring to the table that may benefit former RSE students. For whatever reason I have become fairly networked. If any of you need to be connected with others, but don't know how, I may be able to help (e.g., law enforcement at various levels, lawyers, doctors, political representatives at different levels, news media, etc.). If you have sensitive issues, please exercise extreme caution in this forum. Sometimes a face-to-face in special circumstances is best, and we certainly could have a third party, mutually trusted, involved. Be careful not to choreograph your moves by posting private matters/steps on a highly visible forum such as this.

Thanks G2G and David for your kind words. David, I've come to appreciate your humor. Too many of my uptight peers miss what you're doing/saying sometimes. You illustrate the ineffectiveness of some of our methods very well.

[Whatchamacallit]

Jeff said, "If you have sensitive issues, please exercise extreme caution in this forum. Sometimes a face-to-face in special circumstances is best, and we certainly could have a third party, mutually trusted, involved. Be careful not to choreograph your moves by posting private matters/steps on a highly visible forum such as this."

Thanks for this reminder. This is very true. There is much going on, that never makes posting here, nor should it. Discretion is important, as is self restraint. As moderators, people come across our paths who have their own agenda, but they never stand the test of time. It's sad. Maybe in a new day, things will change along that line.

Jeff, you are an inspiration. You're well spoken, and your maturity in handling tough situations is self evident by your few posts, and from what I've heard about you through mutual friendship.

Joe and Hal are other dedicated-to-the-cause people, who could easily walk away except it's not in their moral fiber to do so. I'm so happy to have crossed paths with all of you, directly or indirectly.

I do have a Bible question for you, but I'll ask it later. No time now.

[littlewiseone]

Nice to 'see' you here, Jeff! I'm Alexandra, one of the speakers at the LARSE evening. I enjoyed meeting you and appreciate your contribution to the community and the solidarity you have shown to our 'cause'. For anyone who's interested, Jeff struck me as a very genuine person who has his heart in the right place.

[Jeff Adams]

I consider it quite an honor to be trusted and welcomed, here. We preachers have been bashed quite a bit in modern gnostic circles such as RSE. It's refreshing to know that the basic goodness of mankind can overcome such far-reaching manipulation. People here have overcome the bitterness that was forced upon them towards the church, ministers, etc.
It was nice to meet you, Alexandra. Thanks for the warm welcome.

[joe sz]

Good to see you here too, Jeff. You may be interested in this comment too about Jesus in India...

above was writ:
"there is a belief among the population that Jesus, or "Issa," as name there, was in India for a time. How do we know he wasn't, when so much has been excluded, tampered with, destroyed or misinterpreted?"

Both the Agni Yoga group and Eliz Prophet's cult I followed for a time claimed that the St Issa legend of Jesus in India was actual fact. I wrote a long paper about the evidence 20 years ago. It IS a legend but the modern one stems mainly from a bogus 19th century manuscript concocted by Nicholas Notovitch after he left Hemis [or Himis] Monastery in Ladakh. I wrote to a native Tibetan scholar myself in 1984 to see if Hemis Monastery ever had the manuscript. The Tibetan was a close friend of the current historian at Hemis and assured me in a letter that his historian friend affirmed that no such manuscript ever appeared in Hemis. Notovitch's publication in the mid 1890s, "Life of Saint Issa, Best of the Sons of Men." was a strong seller in Europe at the time, but Sir Archibald Douglas, a scholar went to Hemis to see for himself soon after it came out. Douglas came back with evidence that Notovitch made it up even though he was at Hemis briefly. Others have claimed to see the same manuscript but all claims are bogus as far as I can tell. I wanted to believe in this Issa legend at one time too....

It is hard enough to verify what we do know of New Testament events as fact but adding legends like the one about St Issa only confuses an already complex foundation story that Bible scholars still debate.

The legend persists even among Hindus some of whom claim that there is a grave of St Issa there.

[Lost in Space]

I took a course, Legend and Myth History. In it, I learned that many of the legends and myths of old have since been shown to have been based on fact. For example, the legends of Troy were inspiring, but not actually credible to a lot of people, until archaologists found it. Same with Babylon.

Just because that manuscript was faked, it does not prove, to me at least, that Jesus did not go to India.
Just because there is no evidence of some of the wonderful tales in the Bible, that does not mean they are not true.

I like the Legend of Issa, as it is likely to promote religious tollerance.

Joe, Joe, don't take it away from me! :o

[joe sz]

:? can't take away what was not there......

Notovitch version of St Issa was most certainly a fraud.
I'll stick with Dr. Nawang Tsering's view in a letter I have from him that no Issa manuscript ever existed at Hemis Monastery in Ladakh.

In 1987 I wrote a critique of E C Prophet's 'Lost Years of Jesus' book. My paper was maybe 8 pages long. CUT's staff wrote a 35 page, single spaced criticism of my paper and me and sent it to one of my very wealthy clients in Australia whose wife was being recruited personally by the cult leader, Elizabeth. Prophet found out I was flying down to exit counsel the wife and she did everything in her power by phone, fax and mail [not to mention the occult decrees or spells] to trash my reputation before I got there---took me 3-4 days alone with the man and his wife in a voluntary session. In the end the lady dropped CUT totally. That one prevented the cult from getting $millions!

Here is a better refutation of Prophet's book that relies heavily on the Notovitch story:
http://www.irr.org/cut1.html#Return%2086
This Christian research scholar also mentions JZ Knight and her Jesus---see sentence with note 86.

A zen Buddhist site also agrees that the Notovitch tale was a fraud but it neverhtless sees many similarities between jesus' teachings with Buddhism.

These similarities may be coincidental but there may also have been a cross-fertilization through Greek and oriental influences on Judaism during the second temple period BCE, thsu influencing Jesus---at least that is what the zen Buddhist site claims.
http://www.thezensite.com/non_Zen/Was_J ... dhist.html
"However, the main problem with Jesus being in India is that its chief source, Notovitch, probably was a fraud. As already stated, the abbot of the Himmis monastery, when later interviewed by J. Archibald Douglas, denied that Notovitch ever visited the monastery. Pali was never used in that area, although Notovitch says this was the language translated for him into French. Himmis had been visited previously by other Westerners who never heard mention of Issa. Jesus' presence in India is not mentioned in any of the established sutras. (29) And most importantly, the sources cited by Hassnain and other supporters are all dated well after Jesus' life. "

[G2G]

Joe, thank you for your response and I respect your experience and opinion. But I still cannot dismiss the idea because of my own "Indian" culture.

I know from my family how Asian-Indians reacted to those who were not from the east, due to their prior experiences. There are people who are of Indian/Nepalese/Tibetan ethnicity who claim they do know of the manuscripts. People from the western world were denied access because the lamas knew it would be taken from them, along with their distrust due to previous experiences or at least, what they had heard of such.

So really, we in the west, imo and experience, might wish to remain open to something people in the very regions and those in the "hills" state as history, then hide, preserve, and even deny. A westerner would have to gain an immense amount of trust in order to be given such information. I know south India has a high Christian population due to St. Thomas. However, when in north India, people noticed the cross around my neck, and would say, "Issa," and then tell me in Hindi they were believers of Issa.

It took a long time to gain trust if you weren't part of the culture years ago (and still to some degree, today), and I can't say I blame the people after all of the invasions from so many places. I'm not talking about a GeeSims visit to Varanasi. I'm talking about being inundated and loving and sharing with these people for over twenty years, living, working and sharing with them.

My college kid took a course in Buddhism last year. We were recently all talking about Buddhism and how it's an offshoot of Hinduism as is Sikhism, and my kid's college prof neglected to mention the Buddha was a Hindu, had a wife and son, had a father who was king to which the Buddha was heir, and Siddartha left this all behind in search of more. The college is highly respected, but the prof didn't include this?

By the same token, so many Christians, which I do still consider myself to be in a very unique manner, but NOT believing we know everything, and believing we WERE indeed lied to, - well, so many Christians so often forget Jesus was Jewish, and practiced as such, most likely.

Anyway, I tend to believe what my India family tells me. My husband and his oldest brother speak and read Sanskrit and my father-in-law, who was a refugee during the separation of India and Pakistan (sad), delights me with his perspective on philosophy-yet does not include religion. I have to add, he's well into his 90's and is still kicking. His stories are truly gripping as well as information that I'd never have learned had I not been multicultural.

In the Himalayas from Nepal and west to the Hindu Kush, and also including what was Tibet - we have no idea of what is actually known and preserved by those who protect their history-nor do we know all of the locations-which can be exceptionally remote.

Will we ever know? The US supported Pakistan back when, and India was non-aligned, turning to the SU for military support. So there were not always the best of feelings toward US and other westerners. All they knew was someone came, killed, plundered, took the gold, jewels, tea, spices, and that was that. Ladakh, in northwestern India, is quite close to what was (sadly) once Tibet, high in the hills--who knows what might have occurred? The people there had reason to protect their innermost secrets from westerners and others back when.

I suppose we might never know, but from my experiences in that part of the country, and that of my own family, I know there is much more to learn about this and there is reason for the people in these areas to protect themselves from researchers. Their entire way of life would be upset with people coming in from everywhere, they would imagine. (and it would be so, not to mention those who would wish to make the documents their own.) The quite life of solitude and peace would be disturbed forever.

There are a lot of people over in Northern India who believe Jesus was there, regardless of who denies it. That's all I know, but will be back over there in two months and always try and learn more. Bookstores in India that are not in the modern malls are very interesting and one could spend a month looking through all of the stacks of books. It's not organized. You have to look through each and every one. And that's just one of thousands, not to mention what is written and hidden in the villages.

We might never really know, but I find it difficult to dismiss it. The people there believe it as fact. So who knows.

(I should scan in a picture of a bookshop in Delhi, and you'd have an idea of what I'm talking about - or maybe you already do.)

Of course, I respect and am always grateful for your help, advice and experience. This is just my own experience over years of being part of that culture and having the good fortune to be able to spend a lot of time over there. It's a country of vast differences-including languages. If I'm in Tamil, Hindi won't help. It can be crazy-but a very colorful crazy. :)

[joe sz]

I've been to bookshops in Delhi--no need to scan any :) I thoroughly enjoyed being in India and Nepal for a month in 1981. Sadly, I never had or made opportunity to return.
But I did visit the Hindu culture in Trinidad since then.

I doubt the Issa legend will cease in India as we know it. Personally I have no problem with it. I just no longer believe it because of the lack of evidence. The anecdotal tradition stretches credulity too much.

After all these years only 2.4 percent of the Indian subcontinent calls itself Christian. Says a lot about the strength of indigenous ethnicity and social structure in India.

[Leemar]

Joe uses proper arguement:

He points out that anecdotal evidence is weak at best.

He points out that pier review and repeatability is essential to achieve a generally accepted view.

These are very key points in critical thought:

Can my hypothesis be argued effectively?
Can my position be measured?
Can my measure be repeated?

To me this is the entire failing at RSE.

I remain Leemar - and worried about Astro's ear. Popped up out of nowhere -