Aussiegirl posed a question about Ramtha's teachings about judgement in another thread and I was thinking of starting one about "mirrors" based on some remarks by Swami Binton.
Here is the quickest summary on the teaching that everything is a mirror (oh and I don't mean the physical mirror used in the discipline, this "mirror" is one of Ramtha's core teachings)...
I'm rubber, you're glue - your words bounce off me and stick to you.
So Aussiegirl, the judgement-avoidance is based on this short version of the teaching...
You're rubber and I'm something sticky - my words bounce off you and come back to kick me. SM
How the "mirror" teaching is a brainwashing...And I just ran into this with a friend (maybe soon to be former RSE friend). When the Ramster is challenged, no matter how gently or appropriately, on their behavior or beliefs, then the mirror teaching is engaged. THEY don't need to change anything because what THEY are doing is just fine and dandy because THEY've created it that way. If YOU have a problem then YOU need to look at YOU and YOUR judgements because what YOU see in THEM is just a reflection of YOUR lack of integrity, or YOUR unkindness. THEY are just in YOUR life as mirror to YOU.
I even seen Ramsters reject compliments based on the mirror teaching. Instead of the life-affirming "thank you!" with a smile, they will say "Don't you know master that you are only seeing yourself? Hmmm?" Uhhh, whatever.
So Aussiegirl, by refusing to make a judgement, then your guy is keeping some karmicly magnified judgement from returning back upon him. If he shares that he thinks the dress makes you look fat, then he will end up putting on 30 pounds so he can gain the experience of how it feels to be fat and told so.
I would say that the word "judgement" is loaded and probably a trigger word for us old Ramsters. You might try usinig comparisons such as "which do you prefer - this dress or the jeans?" If he gets into "I can't judge you." You could say "I'm not asking you to make a judgement. I'm asking which you prefer? There's not a right or wrong." Having a preference is still having your own opinion which may help him hang on to his critical thinking.
Interested in other viewpoints on the mirror and judgement teachings.
Judgement and Mirrors
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Wakeup-Call
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swamibinton
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aussiegirl
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I'm not asking him to make a judgement generally about what I wear, I was just using that as an example. Can't he make a judgement as to whether he likes an orange or an apple to eat, this "fear" of using the word judgement is ludicrious, a judgement is defined in the dictionary as " the cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions". Someone tell me what is wrong with that? I guess you could say judging others personally is wrong but thats just one way of using the word, you could say criticizing others is wrong but there is nothing wrong with criticizing a film. If as you say its all based on the mirror principle then what is wrong with making a positive judgement? Judgement is and has never been only associated with negative outcomes.
I see these types of things whereby normal thought processes and conclusions are considered wrong a prime example of the brain washing going on at RSE.
Swambinton, again that is Ramthaspeak, I find that RSE loves to take ownership of words and give them a different meaning. Judgement isn't just personal and observation is just that observation - it isnt a conclusion, judgement has a conclusion and the two things are completely different processes, you cant substitute one for the other. I suppose if your child was raped and murdered and the prepetrator was in a court of law you would be happy for the Judge just to make an observation, after all didn't your child attract that to themselves? Lets have judges observing not making judgements and let those murderers and rapists run free!
I see these types of things whereby normal thought processes and conclusions are considered wrong a prime example of the brain washing going on at RSE.
Swambinton, again that is Ramthaspeak, I find that RSE loves to take ownership of words and give them a different meaning. Judgement isn't just personal and observation is just that observation - it isnt a conclusion, judgement has a conclusion and the two things are completely different processes, you cant substitute one for the other. I suppose if your child was raped and murdered and the prepetrator was in a court of law you would be happy for the Judge just to make an observation, after all didn't your child attract that to themselves? Lets have judges observing not making judgements and let those murderers and rapists run free!
I am not aware of the original post by aussiegirl here,
but just my two cents......
the word "judgement" is an entirely loaded word at RSE just as I can make
a list of other loaded words. ramtha, jz and rse makes new definitions however they want according to
any teaching they want.
It has been my experience that if you use that word in a conversation with a Ramster, you are only
inviting a huge argument, to which then, you can have a toast or three and then move on and say,
"I was in my emotional body."
You can bring out Webster's or thesaurus all you want with a ramster, but they are NOT going to use it or mean
it the same way society does.
jz as ramtha even makes words up to show how enlightened his 'duaghteren' is and how well read she is
and tells the audience, "What? you have not read about the Count of Monte Cristo? You are not as enlightened
or have as brilliant of an IQ as my daughteren." To which then, everyone runs to the Annex, the new JZ Rose, or
the new Quantum Cafe and buy the latest greatest 3 books on the topic.
Same with Queen Elizabeth, Prince so-and-so, Count so-and-so, Francis Bacpn or anyone else you can think of.
It takes alot of time after leaving to actually re-orient oneself to main stream definitions.
but just my two cents......
the word "judgement" is an entirely loaded word at RSE just as I can make
a list of other loaded words. ramtha, jz and rse makes new definitions however they want according to
any teaching they want.
It has been my experience that if you use that word in a conversation with a Ramster, you are only
inviting a huge argument, to which then, you can have a toast or three and then move on and say,
"I was in my emotional body."
You can bring out Webster's or thesaurus all you want with a ramster, but they are NOT going to use it or mean
it the same way society does.
jz as ramtha even makes words up to show how enlightened his 'duaghteren' is and how well read she is
and tells the audience, "What? you have not read about the Count of Monte Cristo? You are not as enlightened
or have as brilliant of an IQ as my daughteren." To which then, everyone runs to the Annex, the new JZ Rose, or
the new Quantum Cafe and buy the latest greatest 3 books on the topic.
Same with Queen Elizabeth, Prince so-and-so, Count so-and-so, Francis Bacpn or anyone else you can think of.
It takes alot of time after leaving to actually re-orient oneself to main stream definitions.
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Wakeup-Call
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Dictionary entries for "judgement"
1) the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, esp. in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion: a man of sound judgment.
2) the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances presented to the mind: Our judgment as to the cause of his failure must rest on the evidence.
Aussie: yes, I realized you were using a simple example to make your point...I wanted to stay with it to demonstrate the bizarre conversational results that you're well aware of.
Swami: the general definition of word does include objectivity. I agree with you. But I think a person can still feel and express emotion even as they objectively form a wise opinion. To Aussie's point - objectivity does not necessarily mean laying low in the never-never land of "no opinion" "it's all good" - this is the same as free license for everyone to do whatever they want with no consequences. I'm not saying you support that personally, I'm saying that's where that kind of definition leads to.
I totally agree with Tree that the word "judgement" is completely redefined (bit by bit) in the minds of students. It's more like you're unleashing some form of karmic retribution on yourself if you "judge." Yes, Aussie, you're absolutely right that the opposite should be true!! That we should judge "positive" so that we can generate a boatload of positive karmic retributional blessings! It's just that Ramtha never uses the term that way.
Another aspect to the RSE definition, I think, is that "judging" ensnares you into some emotional drama. And the goal is to remain free from emotional drama, so we can "ascend." Yet at the same time we're taught that we're supposed to go out and have experiences for their "emotions." It's really a terrible catch-22.
1) the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, esp. in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion: a man of sound judgment.
2) the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances presented to the mind: Our judgment as to the cause of his failure must rest on the evidence.
Aussie: yes, I realized you were using a simple example to make your point...I wanted to stay with it to demonstrate the bizarre conversational results that you're well aware of.
Swami: the general definition of word does include objectivity. I agree with you. But I think a person can still feel and express emotion even as they objectively form a wise opinion. To Aussie's point - objectivity does not necessarily mean laying low in the never-never land of "no opinion" "it's all good" - this is the same as free license for everyone to do whatever they want with no consequences. I'm not saying you support that personally, I'm saying that's where that kind of definition leads to.
I totally agree with Tree that the word "judgement" is completely redefined (bit by bit) in the minds of students. It's more like you're unleashing some form of karmic retribution on yourself if you "judge." Yes, Aussie, you're absolutely right that the opposite should be true!! That we should judge "positive" so that we can generate a boatload of positive karmic retributional blessings! It's just that Ramtha never uses the term that way.
Another aspect to the RSE definition, I think, is that "judging" ensnares you into some emotional drama. And the goal is to remain free from emotional drama, so we can "ascend." Yet at the same time we're taught that we're supposed to go out and have experiences for their "emotions." It's really a terrible catch-22.
well said.Another aspect to the RSE definition, I think, is that "judging" ensnares you into some emotional drama. And the goal is to remain free from emotional drama, so we can "ascend." Yet at the same time we're taught that we're supposed to go out and have experiences for their "emotions." It's really a terrible catch-22.
especially that ensaring part.
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swamibinton
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Agree with all that is said but i for one as a student DO NOT use the word as you have defined that the school does, it simply helps to pin point personal hang ups which free us from those dramas being produced in our thoughts.
Common sense prevails. your partner really needs to look at this as it can be destroying if applied to everything without common sense.
Ram as I heard was far deeper into personal abservation on the negative attributes than a casual use of the word.
soemtimes the students are their own worst enemy,i see it as well but i dont buy into it as i see it as they sometimes miss interpret what is meant.
You may see my comments as Ramtha speak as that is how you observe them allready judged.
Aussie girl is your partner ....[moderator edit]
Swami..
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Swamibinton
you are asking for identifying information. Please respect the privacy of the other posters.
Particularly as you are our guest on EMF.
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Common sense prevails. your partner really needs to look at this as it can be destroying if applied to everything without common sense.
Ram as I heard was far deeper into personal abservation on the negative attributes than a casual use of the word.
soemtimes the students are their own worst enemy,i see it as well but i dont buy into it as i see it as they sometimes miss interpret what is meant.
You may see my comments as Ramtha speak as that is how you observe them allready judged.
Aussie girl is your partner ....[moderator edit]
Swami..
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Swamibinton
you are asking for identifying information. Please respect the privacy of the other posters.
Particularly as you are our guest on EMF.
The Moderators
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California Dreamin'
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SWAMI says:
"A judgement is only when you comment on someone and it has emotionally content which is actually bothering you, if no emotional attachment than it is only an observation."
"Ram as I heard was far deeper into personal abservation on the negative attributes than a casual use of the word. soemtimes the students are their own worst enemy, i see it as well but i dont buy into it as i see it as they sometimes miss interpret what is meant."
It appeared to me to be an emotionally-driven judgment/statement when Ramtha once singled out Lady Star in the audience and asked her to stand up and judged/announced that she was jealous of her sister's legs. (Come on, give me a break. What a petty statement for a hierophant to make.) By so stating that "judgment/opinion (and other petty comments about her beauty)" Lady Star was placed in an embarrassing situation (standing, with the entire school watching for her reaction, and she was taking it like a champ) as the whole school craned their necks to watch her reaction. He also admonished her about other aspects of her glamour [aspects which JZR was quick to emulate in her own life].
My experience of Lady Star is that she was never arrogant or uppity in spite of her fame and status in the inner circle, and she was always gracious and humble, at least to me (one of the "outer circle"). Could it be that JZR was jealous?
Well, IMO that was another useless mean-spirited judgment/opinion for Ramtha to make, and it more than likely originated directly from JZR'S personal insecurities about herself. (Has anyone ever observed JZR wearing a dress or skirt, i.e., revealing her own legs?)
Pardon my digression from the main subject for these social conscious comments, but AkMenRah that I was [ha ha], a comment like this can be expected from me.
"A judgement is only when you comment on someone and it has emotionally content which is actually bothering you, if no emotional attachment than it is only an observation."
"Ram as I heard was far deeper into personal abservation on the negative attributes than a casual use of the word. soemtimes the students are their own worst enemy, i see it as well but i dont buy into it as i see it as they sometimes miss interpret what is meant."
It appeared to me to be an emotionally-driven judgment/statement when Ramtha once singled out Lady Star in the audience and asked her to stand up and judged/announced that she was jealous of her sister's legs. (Come on, give me a break. What a petty statement for a hierophant to make.) By so stating that "judgment/opinion (and other petty comments about her beauty)" Lady Star was placed in an embarrassing situation (standing, with the entire school watching for her reaction, and she was taking it like a champ) as the whole school craned their necks to watch her reaction. He also admonished her about other aspects of her glamour [aspects which JZR was quick to emulate in her own life].
My experience of Lady Star is that she was never arrogant or uppity in spite of her fame and status in the inner circle, and she was always gracious and humble, at least to me (one of the "outer circle"). Could it be that JZR was jealous?
Well, IMO that was another useless mean-spirited judgment/opinion for Ramtha to make, and it more than likely originated directly from JZR'S personal insecurities about herself. (Has anyone ever observed JZR wearing a dress or skirt, i.e., revealing her own legs?)
Pardon my digression from the main subject for these social conscious comments, but AkMenRah that I was [ha ha], a comment like this can be expected from me.
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HumblePied Piper
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Humans are emotional. Whether you judge or observe, you do so with feelings. That is our nature, is it not? To conform to a teaching that we should not listen to our emotions tells me that my emotions are invalid. What societal value does leaving our emotions out play? If not for our emotions (guilt, pride, shame, hope, etc), what is there to keep our conscious in check?
here is a passage from Martha Stout's The Sociopath Next Door
http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/spath.htm[/u]
here is a passage from Martha Stout's The Sociopath Next Door
http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/spath.htm[/u]
Stopped going to the hardware store to get milk.
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journeythroughramthaland
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Aussiegirl,
Fact is we make judgments on a daily basis, some are conscious and others are not. I do not think anyone on this forum would say that their lives have been full of judgments which turned out to be correct ALL of the time.
The way Judgment is portrayed in RSE is an example of "Demand for purity" which cannot be attained. As others have posted, are we only to believe JZ/r's words that it is "free" from their emotions so that they are only "observing" and because of that disregard their behavior when they do definitely judge and claim it only to be an observation?
Swami, take a moment and think and perhaps share, How do you view a future society that only "observes" instead of judging? how would this work? Is it speech that is devoid of emotional context that is one of your goals?
The re-inventing of a "new" definition of judgement is a bait and switch way to get one to focus internally on their thoughts, becoming in a sense their own thought policeman/woman only in the context of the doctrine that the group (in this case RSE) presents.
We all learn from our good and bad judgments, this is a process essential towards our growth and evolution.
Swami,
You said you use common sense yet it appears with the acceptance of this "new" definition of judgement you are in defiance of common sense. What might happen to you should you choose to stay out of your shell in discussing this? No one is asking you to get out of your shell forever, it is always there should you want to get back inside. What I see happening here is that others are saying: Are you able/willing/unlimited enough, to drop your use of RSE lingo,definitions,doctrinal thought and simply have a conversation outside of those terms?
It is like switching to another language. Surely, you have not always expressed yourself in this manner. I would not want you to do so if you thought it might be harmful to you, so, if you feel it might be please explain.
You are absolutely right on here. Swami is caught up in the evaluation and reinterpretation of semantics via JZ/RSE and fails to realize he/she is making judgments in arriving where he presently is. If something is only an observation, in RSE parlance it then is subjective; once again creating a shell that one can snap back into like a hermit crab for protection when the question becomes difficult to entertain within the world view which has been indoctrinated."Can't he make a judgement as to whether he likes an orange or an apple to eat, this "fear" of using the word judgement is ludicrious, a judgement is defined in the dictionary as " the cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions". Someone tell me what is wrong with that? I guess you could say judging others personally is wrong but thats just one way of using the word, you could say criticizing others is wrong but there is nothing wrong with criticizing a film."
Fact is we make judgments on a daily basis, some are conscious and others are not. I do not think anyone on this forum would say that their lives have been full of judgments which turned out to be correct ALL of the time.
The way Judgment is portrayed in RSE is an example of "Demand for purity" which cannot be attained. As others have posted, are we only to believe JZ/r's words that it is "free" from their emotions so that they are only "observing" and because of that disregard their behavior when they do definitely judge and claim it only to be an observation?
Swami, take a moment and think and perhaps share, How do you view a future society that only "observes" instead of judging? how would this work? Is it speech that is devoid of emotional context that is one of your goals?
The re-inventing of a "new" definition of judgement is a bait and switch way to get one to focus internally on their thoughts, becoming in a sense their own thought policeman/woman only in the context of the doctrine that the group (in this case RSE) presents.
We all learn from our good and bad judgments, this is a process essential towards our growth and evolution.
Swami,
You said you use common sense yet it appears with the acceptance of this "new" definition of judgement you are in defiance of common sense. What might happen to you should you choose to stay out of your shell in discussing this? No one is asking you to get out of your shell forever, it is always there should you want to get back inside. What I see happening here is that others are saying: Are you able/willing/unlimited enough, to drop your use of RSE lingo,definitions,doctrinal thought and simply have a conversation outside of those terms?
It is like switching to another language. Surely, you have not always expressed yourself in this manner. I would not want you to do so if you thought it might be harmful to you, so, if you feel it might be please explain.
"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."
-William Mizner
-William Mizner
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Whatchamacallit
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JTR said, "We all learn from our good and bad judgments, this is a process essential towards our growth and evolution."
Well said, as usual
I'd like to make a quick comment (no time for posting much right now).
Ramtha teaches the students that they need to transcend their emotional body in order to release the dramas of this world, and be light as a feather (done with emotional drama and reactions and attachments and feelings of the first three seals) so that they can ascend their bodies into a blaze of light, back into the Void. If you ascend your body then you are immortal and are free to materialize at will, and dematerialize at will.
Now, for the foolishly sincere at heart students, they take this command seriously ! It is, in my opinion, this very goal that they so desperately wish to attain (an emotional attachment in itself, LOL) that fosters the attitude of coldness in students. It's this attitude that allows them to coldly watch as the ignorant villagers "create their reality" and die in a tragic tsunami. Or, die in RSE because Blue Body failed to produce promised results. It's very much a sign of one's evolution, to act as detached (a word commonly used at RSE) from all worldly activity, as possible. They're told to be the OBSERVER (withOUT any emotion).
Sound sociopathic to anyone ? Or like antisocial personality disorder traits ? I believe so. Then, they call it being in the fourth seal and "allowing" nature to take its course with the lowly, ignorant villagers. Not.
They criticize how the christians have slaughtered, etc, human beings over the years, in the name of religion. Hello ??? RSE students who are so detached, that they have only Observed in a cold, emotionless manner, the pain and trauma in the world, are every bit as guilty. Buying into the Doom and Gloom makes them guilty, when they could choose to live their teachings and focus that there never was any Doom and Gloom upon the land. Ever. As long as I remember....
Judgement ? RSE students will define that word as they are TOLD TO and are allowed to, by Ramtha. Period. Ramtha thinks for them; they do not think for themselves.
Well said, as usual
I'd like to make a quick comment (no time for posting much right now).
Ramtha teaches the students that they need to transcend their emotional body in order to release the dramas of this world, and be light as a feather (done with emotional drama and reactions and attachments and feelings of the first three seals) so that they can ascend their bodies into a blaze of light, back into the Void. If you ascend your body then you are immortal and are free to materialize at will, and dematerialize at will.
Now, for the foolishly sincere at heart students, they take this command seriously ! It is, in my opinion, this very goal that they so desperately wish to attain (an emotional attachment in itself, LOL) that fosters the attitude of coldness in students. It's this attitude that allows them to coldly watch as the ignorant villagers "create their reality" and die in a tragic tsunami. Or, die in RSE because Blue Body failed to produce promised results. It's very much a sign of one's evolution, to act as detached (a word commonly used at RSE) from all worldly activity, as possible. They're told to be the OBSERVER (withOUT any emotion).
Sound sociopathic to anyone ? Or like antisocial personality disorder traits ? I believe so. Then, they call it being in the fourth seal and "allowing" nature to take its course with the lowly, ignorant villagers. Not.
They criticize how the christians have slaughtered, etc, human beings over the years, in the name of religion. Hello ??? RSE students who are so detached, that they have only Observed in a cold, emotionless manner, the pain and trauma in the world, are every bit as guilty. Buying into the Doom and Gloom makes them guilty, when they could choose to live their teachings and focus that there never was any Doom and Gloom upon the land. Ever. As long as I remember....
Judgement ? RSE students will define that word as they are TOLD TO and are allowed to, by Ramtha. Period. Ramtha thinks for them; they do not think for themselves.