I've been skimming posts to find out about cults in general and RSE specifically after finding a friend is also starting to become involved, reading books and intending to go to the next event.
In reading that JZ has been dumped by a lover and drinking more, what do you former members see possibly happening when she finally goes over an edge and can no longer function?
Declining health--physical or mental, at some time she will die, I suspect sooner rather than later in age, or some dramatic event that exposes her and the school breaking the structure of the school apart.
Eventually she will be gone or unable to control the school. So will the school fragment into splinters following separate master students or disband completely? Is there a probably chain of command for either Ramtha to channel through next or some master to pass on the teachings without channeling?
And how will this affect current students and members?
Churches have had many scandals that have rocked the membership and hierarchy. Yet there is a structure that can handle changes and I do believe many of those in the church structures are good people whose faith and integrity show in their actions. Those who misbehave have been too often sheltered but are more often now being held accountable for their behavior and those who protected them also accountable. And the structure can keep fairly stable.
But what happens to an organization dependent on one person? What will happen if JZ becomes seriously ill, injured or in some other way incapacitated or dies? Who took over Scientology after elron died? But that isn't as dependent on one entity.
How can I help my friend if something like this happens? She seems determined to become deeply involved. Or if she gets in and then opts out, any special way to offer support?
as I had been a student for over 19 years,
NO ONE ELSE WILL EVER CHANNEL RAMTHA
I think she must set it up so the newly appointed teachers
and video archives will be the main source for a few years.
She is SO egotistical,
NO ONE ELSE will EVER replace her.
current staff will have no re-course.
They will be left to fend for themselves after some time as
they will see, it will be financially impossible to go on
without 'new' information from the channel.
It sounds as if your friend is already fully immersed.
Not good news.
They will not see inconsistancies for quite some time.
There are some factors currently that I think are indeed cracks in the foundation
1) JZ is aging - she's at least in her mid-60's now - can't keep up the pace or keep her story as straight
2) The "teachings" are not so unique anymore and so many other people offering similar coaching at a much lower price - note that JZ now offers a "home study" course - no reason for new folks to pay $1200 for a retreat with Ramtha
3) The biggest hook JZ has into the students at the moment is the claim that "the end is nigh" and the safest place to be is in Yelm, WA where Ramtha will protect his people. The last 2-3 years Ramtha has been saying the long predicted Earth changes are here. So I personally think she can only carry that on for another 2-3 years before people say "what the ...?"
4) The existence of the forum where ex-students critique the whole program JZ is running
My hope is that JZ lives a good long time - I agree with Tree that she is too egotistical to ever truly develop a succession plan - and that the whole thing fizzles out as she and the teachers age and little is truly accomplished in the school.
There are some of the teachers that, in theory, would carry on the school. But I suspect that when JZ is gone that they will not hold together but splinter. A lot of big egos in that crowd and little teamwork and even less servant leadership. Someone will have the videos that wil be shown for a time - but hopefully it interest in the movement will fade in time.
I think JZ tries very hard to appear "the martyr" and plays up every perception she can that she is persecuted in Yelm which is hardly true. Best thing would be for her to fade away of natural causes so the devotees see that she and Ramtha were not able to conquer aging and death, as promised.
Hopefully your love and loyalty to your friend will give her a place of solid ground even while she pursues RSE. If you have questions about what she's talking about at times, please post and we'd all be glad to give your our perspective.
I find the competition aspect interesting. That people drawn to various teachings are now finding easier and more affordable access to classes, books, etc.
I wonder if perhaps she will simply choose to 'ascend' in some form, going out in a blaze of glory while truly disappearing to get plastic surgery changing her appearance and retire somewhere with her money.
And also if she's stated some definite deadlines for earth changes, that do not occur, I can imagine many people becoming disgruntled and leaving.
the "cult" is inside the mind and "experienced" as true--that is what mind control is. JZ can/will die yet some true "experiencing" believers will continue to plow on with the Ram's teachings just as the old I AM Actvity cult has since the I AM leaders died [1939 and 1971] with over a thousand folks still meeting for annual conferences. At one time by the late 1930s the I AM had nearly 50,000 followers. I mention the I AM because JZ/R borrowed a lot from that ascended master sect in jz/ramtha's "Church I AM" days in the early 1980s.
Leaderless ascended master cults tend to be run by committees that honor the dead founder with shrines and legends. Usually they proclaim that the leader is now "ascended" too. The sects tend to split and shrink but true believers remain. I imagine that JZ's inner core will see a reason to go on if for nothing else the money to be made---hell, they still have to make a living
There is yet the business and properties. It all depends on who inherits/grabs the copyrights to the 'R' trademark, etc. When LRon Hubb'd died, David Miscavage grabbed up the copyrights immediately thus he was able to trump all other sub-leaders in Scientology and he took over as 'de feuhrer'.
I predict the change when JZ dies will involve some politics and legal wrangling.
So, it all depends on how emotionally hooked your friend is as to whether her mind-world of Ramtha will adjust to life without JZ or not. Or she may just seek out the next channeler du jour that meets her taste for another fantastic and elitist ride through an ascended master amusement park. iow, the cult in the mind will not go away just because a leader dies. Sometimes it even gets stronger unless new information enters the brain to process reasons to let it go.
THIS will be the big straw.her death will be a big blow to the school.there r enough teachers who will runn it.<the>will be theire scripture
And as Joe said, the original followers will still follow.
There will be no legal haggling in this case. JZ has seen to it.
And there will be no "splinter" groups.
if anything, it will make these people's visions even stronger, or go mad and kill themselves. Honestly.the cult in the mind will not go away just because a leader dies.
I have seen where jz threatened to leave....no more rambles.
one month later, after all emotional hell broke loose and people were so despondant,
she held a "special" weekend of disciplines.
And because they(we ) had been such horrible students, there
was little or no teaching......ALL OUTSIDE WORK in the crappy field in winter.
Abuse at its' finest.
As for her gliding away, I think this is very possible as well.
South of France is my only educated guess.
BUT.....I don't think her ego can really handle no attention.
She would literally DIE in that situation.
No, she would have servants cater to her.
And several would be honored to follow and comply, which I am sure they will.
We can only hope her mental capacities implode at some point to show
her for what she truly is.
I beg to differ
Mafu was/is a MAJOR splinter group and practically a clone in the beginning. There are many ways around a stupid trademark. Many smaller ascended master workshop groups have appeared since 1980 with similar styles and content.
Unless JZ specifically designates clearly in a will what RSE is and if it will continue and under whom, I imagine her children will "inherit the Wind"-- and the properties. The rest will be history, as they say. Whoever owns the copyrights can sue new Ramtha channelers until the rights run out. But why would they bother unless there is money to be made?
The old I AM spawned 5 groups by 1958 including The Bridge to Freedom, Mark Prophet's Lighthouse of Freedom [later CUT], and several smaller ones I knew of. The most active today that split from CUT is the Temple of the Presence in Tuscon AZ
her children want nothing to do with the ramtha thing.....just the money it generates.I imagine her children will "inherit the Wind"-
She goes to great lengths legally to set things in place for herself only.
The ex lovers only have a decent severance package and a gag order not to talk.
The only way this will go will be the marketing director
and some form of
year 1: show these videos
year 2: show these videos
Having been a member of RSE
while all her legal hagglings were very much included in the teachings,
no current student would dare make some ramster spin off.
They might do something akin to
what White Wind Weaver did ( I know, she had her ideas a long time ago)
or what Dance with the Wind is doing.
If you consider those splinter groups,
well, then, you are right.
i remember in audience a number of times, we'd listen to the talk about how "after i am gone" (rambles) that the school will carry on and people will talk about the stories they have to share when they sat in front of the great master teacher in person...and...how those people would regret that they hadn't the experience of it. whatever. just sharing that we were told that. more than a few times. i wondered about it. who comprises the board of directors of rse ???? what about those that have been solicited to purchase the private stocks she was selling ? what stake would they have in it all ? jz said to the potential private investors that SHE would still remain in "power/control" even if they invested. it's amazing to think that people bought into that...but...then again... i was a student there for too long, so who am i to comment ! eeek.
there is a statute of limitations for copywritten material...i may be wrong but i think it's around 20 years, give or take a little. once that time elapses, those who want to start their own Empire (rolling eyes), can. but then again, all one has to do is google "new age movements" to see that with or without jz knight/rse, there are thousands of such movements called by whatever they are. whether they are direct spin-offs of an identifiable group, or more indirect, i don't see how jz can control who starts what, beyond explicitly using the names she has slapped onto her teachings via the copyrights she has. she's not teaching anything "new"; it's all old !
i have also heard that her children aren't the least bit interesting in sustaining the BUSINESS once she's gone.
as joe said, it's really not so hard to get around jz's copyrights. SHE did it ! she's marketing old news with a new cover. others can do the same.
in any case, we can theorize, and one day, it will be interesting to watch. or not.
tree, remember when we were told that they'd (students) be coming from all over the world and she was going to build dorms to house all the people as there would be up to 5,000 people per event, in rotating schedules ??? yeah, right. LOL
and...s/he said that students would have to pay for it, because it is "their school". reminds me of that new carpet in the arena...and stupid me...i donated toward it. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack !!!!
the prophecy of "all of you that have travelled here to live in this blessed place
with dorms, etc, will be STILL doing C +E when the world around you is caving in."
oh yeah- the carpet....
it was slated for installation for 2 days, one of which was my son's 16th birthday.
I had requested the day off to be with him 2 weeks prior.
I was denied the request because "they needed everybody hands on to
get the job done."
They had over 15 volunteers PLUS the 4 guys who were paid by Sully's team.
At 3 o'clock in the afternoon,
the powers that be, Blue Body,
granted me the last 2 hours off of work.
I was in utter shock.
"How can I plan for a birthday NOW on such short notice??!!!"
He looked at me and said,
"you could always work some place else. You should be happy we gave you these 2 hours."
The threat of a pink slip on my son's 16th birthday
and they had all these volunteers to get this project done.
As if this carpet was the be all, end all of all time.
The jz and james made this little mole hill into their own mountain of self importance
There went my son's 16th birthday.
For ever imprinted with that stupid carpet.
I would like to address this issue here,I've been skimming posts to find out about cults in general and RSE specifically after finding a friend is also starting to become involved, reading books and intending to go to the next event.
and maybe Sara can contribute.
Your friend, has been steeped in tapes and books but has not attended an event yet?
I am wondering how much of her critical thinking faculties have gone awry yet
having not attended an event.
Although it would be helpful for a "critical thinking" meter to display itself above one's head
would be helpful, I have no way to tell unless having a conversation with this person.
I could tell by the way they speak (the words), I could tell by any doctrines they espouse
(creating their day, preparing for earth changes, living 'closer to the earth', etc)
IF she is not thoroughly steeped yet,
I think a few web links will be of use
to get him/her to look rationally at their upcoming choices.
Any ideas, anyone? About ones that will not glaringly say:
BEWARE! RSE IS A CULT! ?
If I were in the position in this person's immediate vicinity,
I would offer to meet them at a coffee house and just chat.
I would not to there to convince them of anything.
I would just let them get a chance to see how I talk
and think and that I might illicit some
thought provoking simple being-ness to
help them open up to moving onto other things; NOT convincing
them it is a cult, although,
my story might send a shiver or 2 down their spine
let us know how things progress lurker.
And thank you for your time.
If someone had said to me in the first few days or maybe weeks, "Look, this is an abusive, destructive organisation", and shown me the evidence, I could probably have heard it.
If it had been later, I would still probably have been able to hear anyone who could first show me that they understood what I thought I was getting from it. I did hear my healer colleague after the one and only retreat I did. I told her how I had managed to break through some pretty difficult emotions and find some joy and light-heartedness again, and she said that I could have done that much more easily, quickly and gently working in the way that she and I did together - I didn't need to do all those very active, dynamic disciplines. I heard her because I trusted her, and the experiences I had with her - I did have the knowledge of the work she and I did before I got into RSE.
Lurker, it sounds as though your friend is further into the teachings than the first stage or the first few weeks - although, as Tree says, you can't be sure where someone is with the teachings until you talk with them (some people can make a powerful emotional connection with a teaching almost immediately, if it meets a need or a desire; some can explore things for months without getting as hooked in.) Does your friend have any other positive experiences of spiritual teachings or forms of personal/spiritual development? I mean healthy, gentle, life-giving ones, not other destructive cults! If she does, you might be able to talk with her about how they are different from RSE. If RSE is her first experience of a spiritual path that has moved her deeply, it will be harder. I imagine that she will need to feel that the other person has some understanding of what she's found in RSE, and the other person will need to be able to suggest that what she has found, or what she's learning, can just as well come from elsewhere. She will need to feel some confidence or trust in that person to be able to hear that.
Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help, and keep us posted!
perhaps an approach with the person you're referring to would be not to say "you're in a cult, run outta there", but to point out the discrepancies in the core claims of such a new age teaching.
1) we all create all of our reality by our thoughts, which are things
2) we can heal anything
3) we can bilocate, dematerialize, etc., etc., etc.
there are all sorts of common thread new age claims, that are just not truthful. they dangle as carrots that human beings chase, sometimes for an entire lifetime. the hook becomes the times one thinks, "aha ! i've got it now!", only to later realize that a certain experience was but a momentary human experience. that's not the same thing as consistent, complete, immediate results 100% of the time. therefore, we do not always create our reality. that being the case, one can be led upon a false path based on theories that don't hold up, making huge life decisions based on a faulty foundational premise of what's "real".
it's that same level of "faith" that allows people to invest in money scams, or defer, if not out right refuse allopathic medical treatment when it is clearly indicated, or even taking an herbal "medicine" that has been studied as beneficial for a certain condition. rse has quite a few DEAD students because of just that level of "faith" that "they create their reality". blaming the victim isn't the answer, and saying that they really had a hidden agenda to die, which is the standard new age response to that scenario. i know some of those people and they wanted VERY much to live and to attain the god-realization in the flesh, complete with ascension into a blaze of light with their physical bodies, to be forever with ramtha in the 23rd universe.
ramtha told ALL of us, "just focus on my eyes and ask for healing in my name and it WILL BE GIVEN TO YOU."
those people are D-E-A-D.
so, coming at the issue of "cults"...really is coming at the issue of being DUPED into a false doctrine. build a case for the ISSUES, and then the name of the GROUP no longer matters; fraud is fraud by any other name.
If I were to predict, I'd say that there'll be a number of the looooong timers who will "hear" Ramtha speak to them - perhaps not for profit, but for self-aggrandizement and emotional security....
something else popped into my mind, to share with you, also.
along the line of "we create our reality" (which i don't believe is accurate, but a partial truth), perhaps you've read the thread(s) where myself and others have addressed the multiple times when jz and jzasrambles rambling to the ramblers (sorry...just tickles me that silly play on words) talked about the december indian ocean tsunami when/where so many innocent people got dead.
either every one of those pregnant women, children and infants, men, and yes even the animals that did die in that tsunami, deserved...DESERVED to get killed, because they were too stupid "spiritually/psychically" to know in advance that the tsunami was coming.
BOTH of them made that statement, quite matter-of-factly (coooold hearted).
anyway, it is my OPINION that all of those people did not have a conscious or subconscious desire for that fate. so that is the level of love and compassion that one places their spiritual growth into the hands of, when joining ranks with the likes of rse.
EVEN IF those who died in the tsunami did "choose" or "agree to" it - that is so different from saying that they deserved it because they were too stupid/unaware to see it coming. I've never heard that view anywhere else than from RSE! According to the view that they "allowed" it to happen, that would be considered a choice that we couldn't possibly understand or judge from our viewpoint, and would be respected...
Welcome back! Sara
Oh, yes, I understand that view. I've been to many channelers in my day, in their audiences, and I've read/listened to the resources of many more than that.
JZR did use the words "deserved it". That tells me that we have people who are unaware that they create their reality consciously. Given that, it begs the question of whether or not they are really creating their reality when they are unaware of it.
Having said that, I am only making a point. I am not saying I agree that we create all of our reality, all of the time.
It's akin to the Ramblers accepting, carte blanche, whatever Rambles says/does "because he knows best". Critical thinking, or forming one's own view after educating oneself on multiple sides of an issue/viewpoint, commonly ceases. The dogma is accepted without scrutiny or request for proof of veracity. Therein is the mistake that many cult members make. Blind acceptance = faith in what the leader tells you, is or is not.
Thanks for the reminder about that viewpoint. It's really important. I'm going to start a new thread on just this topic ! It's worth further exploration.
My friend lives in Canada so getting her to have a cup of coffee to discuss RSE etc. would be a bit difficult. She has had experience with other spiritual or religious traditions and her discussions with me on the subject have all ben loving and uplifting in tone. I don't know what the draw is to this other than having heard from someone who attended an event that it was worthwhile. I don't know who that person is or if they have attended anything else.
One theme that seems to be coming up is relationships and sex. She and her significant other have a strong romance going with the physical aspects giving them that lovers glow as well as having a strong connection in daily life. I don't know where he stands on the RSE stuff. What might balk her would be information on anything putting down sex and physical connections as being unimportant or negative to spiritual connections and higher personal development. People can and do get stuck that way yet in romantic relationships, sex is part of the deal. If it wasn't, you'd have a platonic relationship.
What about romantic relationships in general? Does RSE or JZ encourage loving relationships or discourage them as interfering with personal development? And what about relationships with people not in the school? If someone outside the school has some spiritual or religious tradtion of their own, is there room for acceptance or are RSE members locked into looking within the pool of members for love interests? What I've read seems to indicate that such differences often lead to discord between partners as well as families overall.
This and my next questions might be getting off topic and need a new thread. But what if anything former members picked up at RSE was worth keeping after leaving? Were there any positive experiences?
there are posts where people have posted on here that rse was not "all bad". however, they don't then equate that because it was not "all bad" that it then justified what was/is bad. personal viewpoints and choice.
as for relationships, the teachings have been contradictory (as usual). the beauty of relationships has been addressed, especially in long term (life long) faithful relationships. then again, it has also been taught that it's not natural to expect to be with the same person as we evolve, because as we are living multiple lifetimes in this one lifetime, we will change so rapidly that we may not remain in resonance with our partner...so...we need to free us/them up and move on. that attitude has catalyzed a lot of bed hopping as you might imagine. ALSO, it has also been taught that when you are REALLY evolving, you evolve beyond the need for sex.
imagine that ????
Especially since the school's inception, I would say "romantic" relationships are frowned upon because one has more
enlightening things to do that be sweet to your partner or share intimate times.
At one point in the school, the book Bortherhood of the Third Degree was recommended reading.
It had a definitely romantic, initiate appeal.
But then a few months down the road, another wine ceremony chastised sex of any kind.
Very very contradictory throughout the years.
Does RSE or JZ encourage loving relationships or discourage them as interfering with personal development?
Definitely DISCOURAGES them because they interfere, especially interfere with your own time tiles and how YOUR reality
rolls out. There can be no room for others esp if other's desires do not coincide with yours.
And what about relationships with people not in the school?
Very very frowned upon. Many past teachings on people not in the school not understanding the great work you are doing.
If someone outside the school has some spiritual or religious tradtion of their own, is there room for acceptance or are RSE members locked into looking within the pool of members for love interests?
Mostly within, unless something extraordinarily freaky coincides with a happenchance meeting and a recent teaching.
Then it is a "manifestation" and a runner from Ramtha.
Hubby was willing (and was actively pursuing and had an offer) to transfer to WA. Ironically enough, after a particular event ~ thought not at all in a time frame where I was ready to leave RSE ~ I was seriously looking at real estate. I couldn't do it.
I'm going to share something here and I know full well that some readers are going to frown upon what I am going to post. However, I have a right to my choices and I will ask that if what I post is offensive to your personal choices and tastes, then please let me have MY say about MY choices. I don't expect ANYONE else to do what I did. This is not being posted to spark a debate here. I'm giving a truthful answer, albeit an unpopular one.
I went to ......... giggle........gasp........ a psychic, and asked ONLY about what she saw with regard to a possible move out of state that I might make. That is ALL that this person knew about the thought of a move.
Her reply was, "If you do this, you will be very happy for a period of one to two years. However, I see that you will be surrounded by people who consider themselves to be very openminded, when in fact, they are very closed minded. There is something connected to that perception of being closed versus openminded, that will cause you to shed many tears of sadness for you and your family if you remain there." There are even more details she gave me, but I'm not posting them on here; that's the main point.
I was mad at her for saying that to me !!! I expected her blessing !!!! But, I know this person's track record and it's very DETAILED and very accurate. Despite this, hubby was willing to go if it meant THAT much to me. I think it might be true that he also was a bit worried that if he didn't support me, I might just leave. I wouldn't have done that, or I'd have done it a long time ago. As I've said many times, I wasn't a socialite in RSE. No, thanks ! I was about "family".
Be that as it may ... I had returned to RSE, and AT FIRST, it seemed to be good. Lots of emphasis on science, studying, doing one's disciplines. I could handle that. I had left RSE at the very start of the wine ceremonies and was out for most of it. Then, it was kicking up again. Uh oh. What I witnessed, AFTER I had been looking at real estate, caused me to slowww downnn.
The words of that woman never left me.
NOW, it is my belief that had I purchased the real estate, made the move...been happy for another year or so...I WOULD have ended up just exactly as I did; realizing RSE is a fraudulent teaching. Then, I would have been stuck living amongst the closeminded people who thought they were openminded...and...it would not be pretty. Who knows how long I might have been trapped there. Now, make no mistake. I am N-O-T bashing YELM. I met lots of great people there, and most of them were RSE Outsiders, who showed me more depth of character, honesty, compassion and sympathy than I ever saw among the cut-throat "masters" in the school. I'm sure some of them are nice people, but the pervasive, competitive, "you deserve what you get" mentality of many/most students, is in my opinion, very narrow minded, indeed.
I'm a very lucky woman with a dedicated family. I don't take it for granted. But, we ALL suffered emotionally for what I intended to be a helpful cause. Fortunately for me/them, we made it through the rain. The sunshine is bright and warm !!!