restructuring beliefs

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cerulean
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restructuring beliefs

Unread post by cerulean » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:32 am

Ex-Ramtha students - I am curious - how much of Ramtha's teachings, if any, have stayed with you after your departure? In other words, in trying to undo and unravel the brainwashing, have you kept any of what Ramtha teaches within your belief system?

I am finding it very difficult to decide what to believe, from any direction, anymore; and it seems my entire belief system, even that which was there prior to Ramtha, is up for serious questioning now. I know things will settle down with time, but it sure is confusing right now.

I know that a lot of Ramtha's teachings were pulled or inspired from other sources, so just because it came out of Ramtha's mouth doesn't necessarily make it false, though it sure is hard *not* to toss it all and start from scratch. Seems like such a daunting task to restructure my spiritual belief system from ground zero, though, and a little scary.

Thanks for considering my question,
Cerulean

ordinarymind
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Unread post by ordinarymind » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:42 am

Hi Cerulean ?.yeah, good question ?for me, I found everything was up for questioning ?even to the point of questioning ?what is god? ?.and I?m still wondering about the latter ?I think there are postings on this board in other places where people describe the challenge of figuring out what to keep, what to let go of. Someone recently posted about keeping the baby but throwing out the septic water it was bathed in, which struck me as a pretty good metaphor ?although, I must admit to not being sure whether the baby has been so polluted by the septic waters that it can?t really be saved ?.in my case anyway.

So ?I?m still all over the map really ?I?ve spent time with Rumi?s poetry, time reading the Dalai Lama?s writings, time listening to Ken Wilber videos on you tube ?even a bit of time reading the bible ?I think the hardest thing for me after leaving RSE was not knowing what to trust ?it seemed like my internal barometer or intuition had been suppressed somehow from all those years of indoctrination, that I really no longer knew what I knew, or what I believed.

I still don?t know ?but that matters less to me now than in those early months of leaving RSE. I know I have become stronger and, at the same time, more willing to just sit in this place of ?not knowing? . ..and not expecting to have a pat answer for everything like it seemed like I had when I was a student of the not-so-great-Ram ?.

I doubt that this is very helpful in response to your question ?except maybe to know that you are not alone in your wonderings ?and also that eventually, I think anyway, the question of what to keep and what to throw away becomes less pressing ?it seems that the baggage does eventually fall away (especially with counselling as others have posted) . ..and what is left is tender . ..and it doesn?t have all the answers ?but I think that is a far better place to start than being an arrogant devotee/initiate with a mind that can recite all Rams teachings ad naseum, but never lives them.
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G2G
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Unread post by G2G » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:08 am

ordinarymind wrote:Hi Cerulean ?.yeah, good question ?for me, I found everything was up for questioning ?even to the point of questioning ?what is god? ?.and I?m still wondering about the latter ?I think there are postings on this board in other places where people describe the challenge of figuring out what to keep, what to let go of. Someone recently posted about keeping the baby but throwing out the septic water it was bathed in, which struck me as a pretty good metaphor ?although, I must admit to not being sure whether the baby has been so polluted by the septic waters that it can?t really be saved ?.in my case anyway.

So ?I?m still all over the map really ?I?ve spent time with Rumi?s poetry, time reading the Dalai Lama?s writings, time listening to Ken Wilber videos on you tube ?even a bit of time reading the bible ?I think the hardest thing for me after leaving RSE was not knowing what to trust ?it seemed like my internal barometer or intuition had been suppressed somehow from all those years of indoctrination, that I really no longer knew what I knew, or what I believed.

I still don?t know ?but that matters less to me now than in those early months of leaving RSE. I know I have become stronger and, at the same time, more willing to just sit in this place of ?not knowing? . ..and not expecting to have a pat answer for everything like it seemed like I had when I was a student of the not-so-great-Ram ?.

I doubt that this is very helpful in response to your question ?except maybe to know that you are not alone in your wonderings ?and also that eventually, I think anyway, the question of what to keep and what to throw away becomes less pressing ?it seems that the baggage does eventually fall away (especially with counselling as others have posted) . ..and what is left is tender . ..and it doesn?t have all the answers ?but I think that is a far better place to start than being an arrogant devotee/initiate with a mind that can recite all Rams teachings ad naseum, but never lives them.
OrdinaryMind
That was simply lovely, OM (look at this, you're an "Aum!" So many of JZ as Ramtha's teachings were taken from elsewhere. I remember being in that very place, after, feeling spiritually lost, with an inability to trust anything. Yet I believed that there had to be something "greater than I am"
here, in this place and time. I read more of the eastern religions, and took what resonated with from that, combined with that there is *no* one entity watching our actions...other than ourselves. So the spiritual part comes in where I try and be the person I want to be-following what I've read in book after book-and which I know, innately, is so...and that is to just "love one another." I hope this helps, just a bit.
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972

Whatchamacallit
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:05 am

Hi Cerulean,

I do remember going through a period of time, especially intense, when I considered the teachings, and the RSE dogma as I understood it. I knew I couldn't possibly go through every single event or teaching and dissect it to decide what I discerned to be valid or invalid. The thought of it was overwhelming, especially when I considered the alternative; Not Knowing the answers ! Not as in "being a know it all", of course. But going from having faith that one has learned the answers to the Mystery of Life itself, to having to reevaluate all of it, was just too much.

In time, I decided to toss it. A big help for me was the deeper realization of just how much I believe JZ has plagiarized from many other sources, some of them ancient. The favorite religions in RSE, so to speak, were Hindu and Buddhist beliefs. *However*, Rambles had to have the Rambles "correct" spin on even those religions.

I know this: I do believe in God. I can't prove it, though. NOW, it's okay for me to have that belief, on faith alone. I just choose to believe that there probably is a higher order of intelligence at play in our lives, which have more purpose than we're humanly aware of. My husband, who considers himself to be a recovering Catholic ( alter boy, Catholic schools, attended every Sunday, the whole bit), told me from the get-go when I got into RSE, "We aren't supposed to know all the answers." I"m still not sure I agree with that, and, probably I do not agree with it. I believe science is going to learn all the answers. The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is slated to run very soon. It's mind boggling what is going to happen with those four major experiments. Even the scientists are already collecting more data than over 7,000 computers at ONCE, can accept data for ! It's an immense project that is fully expected to go into terrain that will yield more answers to the how and why of our overall creation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider without blowing for hours doing C&E, etc. ,etc. Not required. Those "seven years" we spent in RSE...well...nevermind.

I know this: I no longer "need" to know what I don't know. It would be nice, if we all had PROOF of our spiritual history and future, but what really matters to me is what I have choice about NOW. That is, my life as it is. One day at a time. Quality, when it comes to relationships. If I cross paths with a toxic person (negative), I just smile and move on. I had so much (well, we all did) negativity infused into me by RSE, with the doom and gloom, the constantly trying to my best and always falling short of that dangling carrot, the meanspiritedness in RSE toward others, the competition, etc., etc. None of those things have to do with the meaning and purpose of living my life.

I consider that many people are inherently good people. Many of them try on lots of religions. I look at the "authorities" within religions of all kinds. I'm not an authority, but I have studied world religions since I was in high school; my fascination was running full steam even then; wanting to know. Having to know ! But, what I know is, HUMAN BEINGS do not know. Theologians of all kinds, do not agree within their own religions, tides change, etc. I personally believe there are common threads that run among all religions, and those are the very core values (love) that we as a species, need to "get". When we feel insecure, threatened, jealous, lonely, scared, sick, angry, frustrated, we are hard pressed to live a path of love toward humanity. Sometimes, when WE are off center, we're hard pressed to tolerate ourSELVES, nevermind be a good role model for anyone else ! Yet, I do believe it can be done. Someday, somehow. I suspect that parts of all religion/spiritual views hold gems of truth, especially where they've been untainted by human beings intervening and altering, and "interpreting" for the rest of us. That's my opinion.

I know that despite the turmoil on this planet, in whatever way it exists, I need to take care of my own backyard first, and then reach outward from there. If I can do that, and do a sincere job, I've lived a good life. If I help others along the way, I'm blessed.

As has been posted, and I think it's fair to say that for a lot of us it's true; we slowly step aside from that "need to know" that initially drove us. The irony is, and I wonder if anyone else has noticed it; that in leaving RSE, one finally gets to the space inside, in many ways, that Rambles actually talked about, peaceful, in the moment, joyful, etc. I am closer to being that person now that I have LEFT the RSE drama behind, and become my OWN person !!!

Probably not all that we learned was untruth.

I love science; I follow leading trends in science every day. As JTR posted many months ago ~ a brilliant post ~ nevermind what the Ramsters are not doing (while they chase that dangling carrot waiting....), look at what science is doing, NOW ! While Ramsters are walking the field, walking a fantasy, REAL scientists are hard at work, CREATING in the REAL world, incredible new discoveries. It's happening at a pace that I just don't know how they're keeping up. Well, actually, they're not keeping up with how fast it's happening.

Nanotechnology alone is making big discoveries and inventions at a rate of 400 per MONTH, globally. WHAT they are doing, is just mind bending. Life is changing.
Medicine and nanotechnology advances are amazing. The overall applications are amazing. Things Ramsters never thought of. They waste their time doing those disciplines, while LIFE is unfolding in front of them and they sadly, haven't the eyes to see it because they're in their fantasy world.

At worst, we die and go to the ground. At best, we do live in our spiritual bodies, eternally, with "God". We (collective we) can read what the atheists have to say, or the faithful who believe in a God-higher order of intelligent life, and debate it until the cows come home, like the theologians do. IN MY OPINION, to get caught up in doing so is yet another trap that actually is a parallel to learning the mysteries of life, in RSE. It's still searching, selecting a dogma, believing you have found the Right One.

I am steadily learning to trust my own intuition again; the same intuition that didn't warn me strongly enough, to run from RSE.

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David McCarthy
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Unread post by David McCarthy » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:06 am

Thank you cerulean,
A wonderful thread..

Just yesterday, my five year old daughter turned to me and said.....

Papa, Do you know what...
Even if we are alone, we are never alone, because God is with us.


So I asked her tonight, what is God?
she replied,
The grass and the trees, Carroll, everybody that just died.
I am curious - how much of Ramtha's teachings, if any, have stayed with you after your departure?
"teachings" Agrhhh...

I really disdain that word, and just about everything it stood for.
But...I will contemplate more about this, and see if there was anything salvageable from "Ramtha's teachings,"

Agrhhh... I think I feel sick..

Dark chuckle........

David.
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

Tree
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Unread post by Tree » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:26 am

I think this is a very profound thread for thought.
I really appreciate everyone's responses.

Thus far, I am in about the same place as ordinary mind.
I still can't define god and am reading a book called Zen and the Brain
(it has taken me a year to even break the cover open as anything to do with the
brain made me highly skeptical and nauseous).
I am still trying to see what and why are the sources of religion.
Is there an inherent part of the brain that drives us?

I found I was totally floundering without any spiritual base
because my moods were very depressive because I was so wishy
washy in my thinking.
The things that have kept me on track are listening to podcasts by
Thich Nhat Han and keeping some kind of physical regimen: walking,
yoga, going to the gym.

I will definitely give this some thought today. Thank you.

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Robair
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Hello evryone

Unread post by Robair » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:16 am

Hello Cerulean

Thank you for all your posts

first Just a little background on us
We (my wife an I ) started this aventure in the summer of 1981 listening to tapes and getting together with few friends to talk about our new fond knowledge.Our first live encounter with Bubba was March 1982 the San Francisco Dialog,45 peoples in the audience, and an experience that I Istill have to figure out.
We did all the Yucca Valley retreats and my wife did Estes Park.We moved to Yelm all stock an barrel in 1989 to be close to the teaching.

We left Yelm in 1997 to go out in the world to replenish the Bank account, witch took us 10 Years of very hard work, since focus an blowing was not working all that well for us we had to go back to the old fashion way Hard work, Summer of 2007 while working on our houses getting them all up an permited an ex Ramster that was doing work for us told us about this site. Test Over.

Even though we were not current,we can safely say that we were still very strong Ramster as we kept the teaching in our daily life and many of our Current friends kept us somewhat informed we knew about the wine ceremonys but they never share all the happening there with us.

Where are we now in our thought process

Like Ordinary Mind for now I am putting all things about God and the hole concept of so call world of Spirituality on the side line sort of speak for now.

So it is great that you open this subject,as you will find that most of us very much still struggling with that, you are not alone.

One think is sure for me is that I am not looking anywhere else to find a replacement to fill the empty space that it has left in my life, like other kind of spirituality or religion, I see it this way, it would be like someone that has stopped smoking after 25 years and is substituting with candy or food to replace the need of the addiction.You only get fat that way and the addiction is still hidden somewhere witting you.

So I am going about it one day at the time,I must admit that it is getting easer to accept the fact and reality that I was in a cult for so many years.You known Haltered Ego thing :lol: :lol:

My wife is different then I,after the initial shock of finding out that she has been HAD all those years she seam to have put the hole experience behind her and is very content with her life now,
Not like me she thanks God for finding out just in time before going back again with all stocks an barrels , we retired instead. :D :D
We have a pretty good life now witch help a lot to cope with all of this mess.
We talk about it often she never show any sign of anger,but has few very interesting words to describe the school and Bubba.
For now I am going to keep it that way it is a safe place to be.

My Anger lye more on the fact of waking up and realizing true this site the devastating effects the school has done on so many sincere and innocent Peoples.
:cry: :cry:

Oldone

cerulean
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Unread post by cerulean » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:02 pm

Thank you all for your very thoughtful replies.

I have decided to toss all that Ramtha taught, and only revive it if I find it from another source which I find trustworthy (and my judgement of trustworthy has gotten much stricter, that's for sure) and from which it still rings true.

Even if Ramtha was somehow an enlightened alter ego of JZ, I feel that too much of the teachings were twisted, contradictory, or just plain unhealthy, to really trust any of it on its own. I think more likely he/she was just well-read, clever, and lacking of a conscience. Whatever. Doesn't matter what Ramtha was, really -

JZ is an enigma, indeed. So be that. :roll:

cerulean
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Unread post by cerulean » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:07 pm

Whatchamacallit wrote:As has been posted, and I think it's fair to say that for a lot of us it's true; we slowly step aside from that "need to know" that initially drove us. The irony is, and I wonder if anyone else has noticed it; that in leaving RSE, one finally gets to the space inside, in many ways, that Rambles actually talked about, peaceful, in the moment, joyful, etc. I am closer to being that person now that I have LEFT the RSE drama behind, and become my OWN person !!!

I am steadily learning to trust my own intuition again; the same intuition that didn't warn me strongly enough, to run from RSE.
I really appreciated your reply, Whatchamacallit. I still have that "need to know" feeling, but I think I'm going to just dissolve myself into my family and work, and just try to enjoy my life as it is again, and see where it leads me. (for now). I have been enjoying reading some buddhist teachings, but I'm trying not to take anything too seriously. My confidence is slowly rebuilding :) What you said about science was really intriguing too. I am going to look into that.

Thanks again, everyone! This is a great forum!

Whatchamacallit
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:14 am

cerulean wrote:I have decided to toss all that Ramtha taught, and only revive it if I find it from another source which I find trustworthy (and my judgement of trustworthy has gotten much stricter, that's for sure) and from which it still rings true.
.... and my judgement of trustworthy...has gotten much stricter....

Exactly. My two cents...that's what I call not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Good for you, Cerulean ! You're on YOUR own way.

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:38 pm

Cerulean,
I agree with Whatcha. You are on your own way. For what its worth I have found it a great help to relate my personal experiences to what has been posted here. For me it takes quite some doing to do that because for many years before RSE the "I" was not seen as important. Individuality and personal experience was not encouraged beyond a certain contemplative point. Certainly discussion of one's personal experience was not openly expressed in public or on a public forum. Personal experiences and insight were for personal contemplation and guidance was only given if asked for. All of this was part of a religious philosophy that I had adopted. I see similarities with that mind set and the denial of the knowledgeable self encouraged at RSE.

RSE did teach me that there is validity in expressing individuality but how that was supposed to be expressed was based wholly on what that school dictated was acceptable. The past was to be disregarded completely and we were encouraged to jump off into a complete state of self delusion. Whoa.

I can pass along some advice that I have found helpful since leaving RSE.

Gather information that resonates with you, consider why it does so and what do you plan to do with the information before diving head first into more of it.

That might help you to keep moving in a direction that you truly desire to travel in.

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