The following post(s) have come out of a challenging spiritual mental emotional journey ? the decision to post did not come lightly. My intention, my hope, my prayer is that the posts are helpful.
This message board has been a continuous learning for me. The articles about cults and cult leaders and personality types are informative. I?m learning to recognize the many different methods JZ uses to make people do what she wants. Although I don?t have the education, training, skills, or experience to label or diagnose anyone, through reading on emf over the last few years I have come to see that there are consistent characteristics and predictable behaviors in the personalities of people (like JZ) who somehow hook and manipulate and ?feed? off others. They are people who so easily charm us, draw us into their world. They?re not necessarily cult leaders ? (I?ve had stunning realizations about someone I?ve known for over 40 years ? and didn?t fully see the patterns until now.) They can also be a ceo or bar stool alcoholic, car salesman or school teacher, minister or politician or whatever? ? For weeks (long prior to reading anything about narcissism) I?ve been working on putting together a list of these characteristics and behavior patterns that I?ve been observing. To me the label doesn?t matter as much as learning how to recognize the pattern of behaviors and not get suckered in AGAIN? to an individual, a ?leader? or ?Teacher?, a group, a so-called friend, car salesman, whatever.
Behavior Patterns
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Another Dimension60
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:28 pm
Although people with these personality traits may have valid reasons for being the way they are, I?m coming to recognize that these reasons are no longer acceptable as excuses to hurt others. So many of us have been abused, so many of us have been betrayed and not loved quite enough in quite enough ways, we?re all human and humans mess up ? that doesn?t give us license to hurt others, or ourselves, or allow others to hurt us. The following post listing characteristics is my perspective, observations, opinions. And, I remain still mystified. I have been suckered too many times in my life ? different scenarios, different people, but as I finally recognize, the same characteristics and behaviors.
I also look into me and consider what it is in me that has so consistently and characteristically gotten hooked. I too am responsible for the ?dance? of cultleader/ramster; hooker/hookee? ? At the least, I?ve come to realize, I must love and trust and believe in and listen to me as much as the other; to love honor and serve That Which Is That Speaks Within ?the still small voice? Finally I?m coming to another progression in my growth that can say enough. For me, recognizing these characteristics have helped me separate from and/or not get hooked by such personalities, and to share.
I also look into me and consider what it is in me that has so consistently and characteristically gotten hooked. I too am responsible for the ?dance? of cultleader/ramster; hooker/hookee? ? At the least, I?ve come to realize, I must love and trust and believe in and listen to me as much as the other; to love honor and serve That Which Is That Speaks Within ?the still small voice? Finally I?m coming to another progression in my growth that can say enough. For me, recognizing these characteristics have helped me separate from and/or not get hooked by such personalities, and to share.
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Another Dimension60
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:28 pm
Following are the consistent characteristics and predictable behaviors I?ve been able to identify in people/personalities that somehow hook and manipulate and ?feed? off others:
- charming, likeable, loveable, charismatic ? you?re somehow immediately drawn to that person
- Information ? they have knowledge you don?t ? wow you with (their) knowledge- interesting and just beyond our usual knowledge base
- Suffering and sacrificing ? we?re constantly told about their suffering ? somehow implying that their suffering is worse than ours, that although our suffering is our fault we somehow are responsible for their suffering and sacrificing.
- good story tellers ? poetic prose revelations
-can spout profound philosophical, theological, psychological ?truths? ? living them is another story
- present selves as having a good sense of humor ? but you?re somehow not included in the laughter, almost as if the joke was on you ? humor usually based on mockery of someone else
- highly skilled, exceptional intelligence, talented, special ? which they immediately and repeatedly let you know about - always making you feel slightly ?less than? ? not as skilled, not as knowledgeable, not as insightful, not as humorous, not as?
- utter self-centeredness - manipulating every situation to be about them - even in appearing to reach out to someone, it?s about them
- self-righteous proclamations as if they were expert in whatever area they decide to proclaim about
-sudden changes of personality ? nice lovey dovey to threatening
- Intermittent bashing ? you never know when the person will turn on you, accuse you, judge you, blame you, curse you, criticize you, demean you, or ?attempt to sabotage you.
- accusing judging condemning mocking criticizing of others ? always a ?we/they?
- always will at least demean or mock, if not attack anyone who appears ?more? anything then them?
- no criticism of them, however mild, is allowed - always always always make an/other feel wrong, less than, somehow ignorant, emotionally immature ? you?ve got the problem, not them
- always setting people around them against each other
- demand to be seen as superior ? in knowledge, in suffering, in importance, in ability, in everything; ---
-ultimately inaccessible ? appearance of intimacy, but no true ?connection?/intimacy/closeness/we-ness;
- responses to situations are predictable
- deaf and blind- unawareness of how hurtful their behavior is to others; unable to hear or see their behavior - denial denial denial ? often claim not remembering - Never an apology, never taking responsibility for their actions.
My hope in sharing here is to help others become more aware and alert so we are not used (again) as fodder for someone?s ego needs. For me, it?s not about judgment or blame or diagnoses or even explanations, it?s how do we learn to help each other not hurt and be hurt. In the Disney cartoon movie ?Jungle Book?, the boy is saved from the hypnotic lure of the snake because he is loved and protected by love, by ?family?. From that heart of adopted Family, let us help protect one another. ? and as someone said to me ? the snake in the movie is obvious, the snake in our lives isn?t.
- charming, likeable, loveable, charismatic ? you?re somehow immediately drawn to that person
- Information ? they have knowledge you don?t ? wow you with (their) knowledge- interesting and just beyond our usual knowledge base
- Suffering and sacrificing ? we?re constantly told about their suffering ? somehow implying that their suffering is worse than ours, that although our suffering is our fault we somehow are responsible for their suffering and sacrificing.
- good story tellers ? poetic prose revelations
-can spout profound philosophical, theological, psychological ?truths? ? living them is another story
- present selves as having a good sense of humor ? but you?re somehow not included in the laughter, almost as if the joke was on you ? humor usually based on mockery of someone else
- highly skilled, exceptional intelligence, talented, special ? which they immediately and repeatedly let you know about - always making you feel slightly ?less than? ? not as skilled, not as knowledgeable, not as insightful, not as humorous, not as?
- utter self-centeredness - manipulating every situation to be about them - even in appearing to reach out to someone, it?s about them
- self-righteous proclamations as if they were expert in whatever area they decide to proclaim about
-sudden changes of personality ? nice lovey dovey to threatening
- Intermittent bashing ? you never know when the person will turn on you, accuse you, judge you, blame you, curse you, criticize you, demean you, or ?attempt to sabotage you.
- accusing judging condemning mocking criticizing of others ? always a ?we/they?
- always will at least demean or mock, if not attack anyone who appears ?more? anything then them?
- no criticism of them, however mild, is allowed - always always always make an/other feel wrong, less than, somehow ignorant, emotionally immature ? you?ve got the problem, not them
- always setting people around them against each other
- demand to be seen as superior ? in knowledge, in suffering, in importance, in ability, in everything; ---
-ultimately inaccessible ? appearance of intimacy, but no true ?connection?/intimacy/closeness/we-ness;
- responses to situations are predictable
- deaf and blind- unawareness of how hurtful their behavior is to others; unable to hear or see their behavior - denial denial denial ? often claim not remembering - Never an apology, never taking responsibility for their actions.
My hope in sharing here is to help others become more aware and alert so we are not used (again) as fodder for someone?s ego needs. For me, it?s not about judgment or blame or diagnoses or even explanations, it?s how do we learn to help each other not hurt and be hurt. In the Disney cartoon movie ?Jungle Book?, the boy is saved from the hypnotic lure of the snake because he is loved and protected by love, by ?family?. From that heart of adopted Family, let us help protect one another. ? and as someone said to me ? the snake in the movie is obvious, the snake in our lives isn?t.
narcissists
Dear AD, I understand completely how you are feeling. I too had to wake up one day to a find out that my "best friend", "my friend who was like a sister to me", was nothing other than a con-artist. It took me a long time to work through that. I finally prayed for understanding, and a book came my way: "The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout. I highly recommend it. It's an easy read, and it really helped me. It comes to many of the same conclusions you did.
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Another Dimension60
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:28 pm
Ramthaland
Oh yes, AD, I did journey through Ramthaland, I was Akh Men Ra. I was in from 1987 to 1993. My awakening came not from realizing that she is a sociopath (although she is in fact that), but another way. After many strange experiences at the Ranch, I came to the conclusion that Ramtha is demonic, which is the ultimate sociopath, of course. Prior to all this, I had never believed in that stuff. But Ramtha made me a believer. Thank you Ramtha.
I just discovered this forum, what a wonderful place! When I left in 1993, I had to labor in isolation to make sense of what I had just gone through. It took me years. The people here now have this wonderful place to come to, to share their experiences.
I hope you can heal from your interactions with the sociopath. Only someone who has been the victim of one can understand how long it takes to heal.
Interesting tidbit: psychiatrists study sociopathy NOT in order to heal the sociopath. The sociopath NEVER feels they need any help in any form, they are fine and dandy just the way they are. No, they study it to be able to help the VICTIMS of the sociopath.
I just discovered this forum, what a wonderful place! When I left in 1993, I had to labor in isolation to make sense of what I had just gone through. It took me years. The people here now have this wonderful place to come to, to share their experiences.
I hope you can heal from your interactions with the sociopath. Only someone who has been the victim of one can understand how long it takes to heal.
Interesting tidbit: psychiatrists study sociopathy NOT in order to heal the sociopath. The sociopath NEVER feels they need any help in any form, they are fine and dandy just the way they are. No, they study it to be able to help the VICTIMS of the sociopath.
Oh, and btw, you described my "friend"/con-artist to a T. She was oh so charming. Smart as a whip. It's taken me all of 3 years now to finally feel free of the trauma she caused me. I was so gullible though, so trusting, taking people by their word. My "friend" helped me to grow up. I will never be the victim of a sociopathic con-artist again. Thank you Ramtha/Prince of the Void. Thank you my old "friend".
Thank you AD60
I somehow didn't see this post until nimbus replied to it. Thanks nimbus and welcome to EMF.
It is actually a little shocking to see how well the character traits of Judith (as JZ & Ramtha), as well as some of the the main characters at RSE have been described in this post.
I applaud you when you say that it is not about judgement, but rather that there must be ways of helping others who are both afflicted with and affected by these types of behaviours. To just have the courage to recognize them in ourselves and choose to correct them; if nothing else out of respect for others' freedom, is a HUGE step in my opinion.
In reading your post I became more aware of how manipulative just one of the characteristics could become, never mind what the effect would be if all were given expression in one individual. It seems that in a state of delusion (mind-control inflicted or otherwise), followers of RSE are encouraged to respect, celebrate and adopt these behaviours. I know that I certainly did when I was active in RSE
Seeing these characteristics and behaviours brought to light so clearly, will surely alert others to the potential of being manipulated by those who make them a part of their personality.
May all people be free of such deluded thinking, both within themselves and from the effect of them.
Much love, unbound
I somehow didn't see this post until nimbus replied to it. Thanks nimbus and welcome to EMF.
It is actually a little shocking to see how well the character traits of Judith (as JZ & Ramtha), as well as some of the the main characters at RSE have been described in this post.
I applaud you when you say that it is not about judgement, but rather that there must be ways of helping others who are both afflicted with and affected by these types of behaviours. To just have the courage to recognize them in ourselves and choose to correct them; if nothing else out of respect for others' freedom, is a HUGE step in my opinion.
In reading your post I became more aware of how manipulative just one of the characteristics could become, never mind what the effect would be if all were given expression in one individual. It seems that in a state of delusion (mind-control inflicted or otherwise), followers of RSE are encouraged to respect, celebrate and adopt these behaviours. I know that I certainly did when I was active in RSE
Seeing these characteristics and behaviours brought to light so clearly, will surely alert others to the potential of being manipulated by those who make them a part of their personality.
May all people be free of such deluded thinking, both within themselves and from the effect of them.
Much love, unbound