flawed study does not rule out fraud

There are those who don't believe this study was a credible work. What do you think? Why?
joe sz
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flawed study does not rule out fraud

Unread post by joe sz » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:17 am


The above is the press report after the "scientists" and JZ held a by invite only press meeting with limited questions. A reporter who was invited called me before and after the event. She was disturbed by the lack of openness and lack of scientific skepticism on the art of the testers.

My contention is that the tests never attaempt to disprove or prove that Ramtha is an independent spirit or entity from JZ. The tests measure only her ability to dissociate [fairly high] and some somatic and brain functions. The tests have not been repeated with actors and/or other channelers.

No one on that team tried or dared to ask a series of questions that Ramtha should easily answer but that JZ could not possibly know.

If Ramtha cannot identify simple items or events in the room [or anywhere--R is "unlimited", no?] independent of JZ's awareness then there is no reason to believe or accept that R is other then JZ. If that is the case, then all JZ is doing is a form of acting via dissociation---she may or may not recall R speaking or using her body. Edgar Cayce was another case of an amnesiac channel. Just because a channel cannot recall what an entity says, does not rule out that some part of the mind is acting the part of the entity.

Fraud has not been ruled out.

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Unread post by joe sz » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:24 am

I wrote the following and it is from:

How to Test a Channel

In chapter eight, Melton concludes: "However, because the questions of pathology and fraud were answered, nonbelievers will have to come up with more creative alternatives" (156). Creative? Try simpler. Typical of parapsychologists who want to believe in the paranormal, Krippner and his colleagues missed an important opportunity to test the obvious. They needed wits, not instruments and psychological tests to see whether Ramtha was a separate, intelligent being. The Ramtha/JZ has produced many audio tapes, books, and videos to draw upon, along with interviews with members and ex-members. Ramtha/JZ has given private consultations to paying customers (Shirley MacLaine reports on these sessions in Dancing in the Light), so he is capable of private conversation. But Ramtha is trademarked like Mickey Mouse, meaning that no one can legally channel or use "Ramtha" without getting sued by JZ, so we cannot cross-check through another medium. But we do not need the opportunity. JZ/Ramtha walks and talks relatively freely among devotees, and s/he has appeared on television talk shows, publicly stating "outrageous" things and stroking his "beard." This is not a timid spook.

But he is oddly inconsistent. According to JZ (A State of Mind , 1987) in the beginning years [1977-80] Ramtha would follow her around asking odd questions like, "What be a Safeway," as if he just reappeared on earth after 35,000 years with no knowledge of our food market life. Yet he seemed to know the most secret details of our government, how the "Graymen" were running it and why we should avoid "debit cards." He demonstrates no capacity for another language, but speaks in an odd, British accent. Ramtha's accent and postures often resembled actor Yul Brunner his The King and I role. It is easy to note that Ramtha is suspiciously familiar with our culture and religions despite "his" clumsy affect in language.

We also know that Ramtha claims to be part of the Great White Brotherhood of ascended masters introduced to us mainly through Madame Helena P. Blavatsky and her Theosophical Society during the late 19th century. This is significant because these alleged ascended masters "do" operate spiritually outside of time and space. Through their mediums or channels, they claim access to instantaneous, "unlimited" knowledge and psychic power. Ramtha must know who his friends and enemies are. Ascended masters like Ramtha can communicate with one another according to the mythology. If an ascended master, or Ramtha, can describe complex philosophies, the airships of Inner Earth and extra-terrestrial civilizations (see Ramtha dialogues on Inner Earth and Jehovah ), they can certainly describe through their medium much simpler things.

This is my primary rule for this test: If the channel/spirit or either aspect refuses to comply with such a simple test, we automatically conclude that there is no spirit (or "autonomous complex" as Carl Jung called it) present. Normally, I have had to set up the channeled "spirit" to trap them into such a test. Most channels or mediums are a clever lot and will squirm out of the obvious traps, like "how is my dead sister" when you do not have one.

When asking a question it is important to know what the channel would not know about your question, but it must include something the channeled spirit claims to know. This is not unlike the tests Catholic exorcists have used to determine if a "demon" were present. Can the spirit speak in a language totally unknown to the possessed? Can the spirit move physical objects? Does the room suddenly turn cold for no apparent reason? Can the exorcist team rule out psychopathology? And so on.

But our test is not to determine the need for exorcism. We will merely try to determine the existence or quality of a spirit, not to judge or eliminate it. We already know that Ramtha knows another master called Jesus ("Yeshua ben Joseph" in JZ's jargon). Yeshua is an ascended master who JZ recognizes and has channeled, as indicated above. Ramtha may recognize another master if you ask-Blavatsky's KH (aka Koot Hoomi or Kuthumi) would do as the Ram should know that master well. After all, they are part of the same occult lodge, the Great White Brotherhood. In any case, the important factor is to get Ramtha to admit that he knows another ascended master, then ask a series of "yes" questions. Have you known Jesus (KH) for long? Are you aware of esoteric groups or persons that Jesus (KH) has worked with? Would you or Jesus (KH) be aware of people who are merely faking to be your channels or messengers? (JZ sued a European woman successfully to stop her from channeling Ramtha. Remember that Ramtha carries a trademark). All of these are "yes" answers because they are rhetorically sound-Ramtha has no choice but to answer yes, unless he wants to lie like an idiot. Do not put that past him, however. He may be "unlimited," but he can be "outrageous."

For this next step you will have had to encounter many serious students and channels of these same masters, facts about actual people who JZ would not know. There are literally thousands to choose from. Then ask: "Ramtha, I know of someone in [Indianapolis] who has studied your teachings and channels Yeshua. Her name is [Mary Doe]. Describe that person to me? Please tell me what she is working on now." Use real people and guarantee that the person and project is real. That is the kind of question, simple, that does not take a physicist or an occultist to answer.

If, by chance, Ramtha gives the right answers, then JZ is either psychic, lucky, or a spirit is really there. Or your questions were poorly designed. The "hits" could also be due to a number of weird explanations. I doubt this will happen, but you have to be prepared to probe further, set up new tests, and not be shocked by the results. During the early 1980s, when the Medjugorje visionaries were tested, they submitted to several doctors, scientists and theologians over a period of years. The tests were more thorough and the visionaries more accessible to scrutiny than JZ. Krippner and his colleagues have not eliminated fraud, as Melton claims. They have only opened the possibility to longitudinal studies by less credulous, more thorough scientists, but I doubt seriously that this will ever happen.

One gaping difference between the Medjugorje seers and JZ is that the seers were not "possessed" by the subject of a vision in the shamanic sense, whereas JZ is. Their vital signs and brain waves remained the same during the group ecstasy, whereas Ramtha/JZ showed a difference during the possession. Any research team should include tests for the integrity of a channel or visionary. If the "self" is intact and honestly presented as indicated in various tests of the Medjugorje visionaries, there may be a strong possibility that they are speaking truth. Still, this does not prove that the Virgin Mary in their vision is "real." The Medjugorje visionaries maintain integrity during ecstasy; JZ is disintegrated. With JZ/Ramtha we have a corrupted JZ who is "confused" with Ramtha when she is apparently possessed. This still does not disprove that some spirit is present in JZ, but it shows that she is an essential part of the message--no JZ, no Ramtha. And Ramtha has yet to prove that "he" knows anything that JZ does not or can not know, in my view.

No, Krippner and his team have not ruled out fraud in the case of JZ/Ramtha, if what Melton and the press release (Connell) have reported thus far is any indication.

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:45 am

Thank you Joe,

Carroll Cobbs told me that the ? Ramtha scientific study? was turned down for scientific review..
because the original test were not scientifically based ....!
By the way..
Carroll was the only RSE member in attendance during those tests.
He helped set them up.


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the testers

Unread post by journeythroughramthaland » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:42 am

Just wanted to add a few notes here.

I know Krippner has been quoted as saying the tests prove that she (JZ ) was not a fraud. I interviewed Kripner in this regard and he explicitly told me that his tests did not prove such a thing and that they were not intended to. Now, he may have been just saying one thing to me and another to JZ and her bunch, but when put on the spot that is what he told me. In addition, I had a much more in depth interview with Ian Wickramasekera who basicly said the same thing. Also during the interviews they both elaborated on what they felt were significant findings and in their behalf both of them were quite forthright about admitting that portions of thier studies were based on hypothesized measurements and theories.

In their study, they found that of the 7 (advanced) students tested they found the students had a high degree of Absorption which is defined in the study as "openness to experience emotional and cognitive alterations in a varity of situations"

They also found the group to have high hypnotic ability. ( meaning they have the ability to become highly suggestible) . They scored a 7 out of a possible 8 on the Mean eye roll sign.They go on to correlate this with verbal reports of ESP or paranormal experiences and found it to be positively related though they go on to admit that "...it is not known if high hypnotic ability is related to objectively measured actual ESP performance"(Honorton& Krippner, 1969). I guess they found not much had changed in the last 25 years or so.

Only JZ was submitted to the "gold standard" (Stanford Form C) of hypnotic ability. She tested in the top 6% of all people administered the test.

As far as the study groups ability to dissociate, where the mean average in the general population on the dissociative experience scale (DES) is 10.8 the average for the RSE group was 31.1 almost 3 times more then the general population! This is a rather telling discovery and might just point in the direction of why those in RSE and groups like them stay in an enviornment in which there is so much conflicting information and perhaps may be one part of the reason that they developed this ability in RSE.

If you think that this is a life enhancing device when used to the degree that was found in the students, read the definition given by the testers of Dissociation and decide for yourself.

"Dissociation is defined as a process that produces a discernible alteration in a persons thoughts, feelings and actions [empasis mine] so that temporarily select information can be isolated from other information in consciousness. Hence, people who score high on dissociative ability are able to temporarily blockade select information from consciousness or be un aware of it for adaptive or maladaptive reasons. [emphasis mine]
In other words, they can "Keep secrets from Self" [emphasis mine] (Wickerramasekera 1988,1993)"

They go on to state that "...High DES scores are often associated with a prior history of some type of trauma. (CHu& Dill, 1990; Spiegel& Cardena, 1991)" Could it be one of the the sources of trauma might be RSE??

As far as JZ' s physical changes during the "channeling" of the big dude while they say that the findings were consistent with JZ's verbal reports that she has no awareness of the big dude when "channeling". They go on to state that there were several "naturalistic" explanations for what they found occuring and that "...sympathetic activation does not prove [empasis mine] that consciousness is blocked or attenuated." They go on to state that there are further tests that could be done in the future to test the "...apparent state specific learning hypothesis proposed by J.Z. Knight (Knight 1987)" Guess she never invited them back for that one!!!!

They also went on to say that by using replicable protocols it would be possible to verify or reject the reasons for the lack of perception of stress shown by the subjects as well as their ability to numb themselves from this stress. This could be done by using blood chemistry studies. With regard to this they specifically state "But, out of mind is not out of body or behavior"

In addition, they also found that JZ's sympathetic activation (physical activity) increased. during meditation and channeling. They stated that this was opposite of existing research. "The typical finding during most types of meditation is a decrease in sympathetic activation. [emphasis mine],(Benson,1975)" It is interesting to note here that in lie detector studies, when someone is deceiving, their sympathetic activation increases.(MARK A. de TURCK, GERALD R. MILLER (1985) DECEPTION AND AROUSAL. Isolating the Behavioral Correlates of Deception
Human Communication Research 12 (2) , 181?201 doi:10.1111/j.1468-2958.1985.tb00072.x )

There are many other interesting findings in the study which challenge RSE's presentation of its findings (what else is new?) including but not limited to many suggested tests to falsify or verify the rate of progress or "drop-out" from the RSE program, ( I guess Greg Simmons didn't like that one.....) as well as the long term consequences on ones health due to continuing RSE practices.

In conclusion, they mention that of all of the people tested, JZ had the highest rate of sympathetic activation, in order come the next highest:

James Flick
Audrey Wolfe
Greg Simmons
J.O. Alt

Maybe they might consider consenting to a lie detector test the next time.......

The quotes listed here come from a paper titled "On the Psychophysiology of Ramtha's School of Enlightenment"
Ian Wickramasekera, Stanley Krippner, Judy Wickramasekera, Ian Wickramasekera the 2nd.
It is undated, but is post 1996

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:58 am

JTR mentioned lie detectors, and "As far as JZ' s physical changes during the "channeling" of the big dude while they say that the findings were consistent with JZ's verbal reports that she has no awareness of the big dude when "channeling". "

Approximately in 2003, maybe 2004, JZ was in audience talking about how she's just so evolved that when she's out of the body while Ramtha's in it, she was watching from The Other Side. She went on to say some things about preparing a place for Blue Body, and some other preparatary comments, along with vague info about what SHE has earned the right to learn over there on the Other Side - that - she could not share with us students because of course we were beneath it all and just wouldn't understand.

My point being, she lied, as far as I can tell. For years and years, she claimed to have no awareness of what "Ramtha" was teaching. But, in those later years, she claimed she could hear/see it all, in this dimension below where she goes when she's out of the body in la-la land.

Curiously, her intergalactic OBE travels coincided with Dr. Joe and Audrey being bounced out the door. It became all about her, in ways previously unseen.

She's about 62 or 63 years old now, and curiously enough, is marketing her private stock options for a mere $6 billion, to those who have the money to invest. For someone who claims to have had the experiences that she readily cites, she's sure willing to put a price tag on it all, and sell it.


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Unread post by swamibinton » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:10 am

very interesting read i must say.

Dont you think now that Audrey And Joe are not members that they may come public about any information that may be a threat to these studies or anything else.

(these moderator blokes get around)

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Unread post by Tree » Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:52 pm

Audrey is still a current student,
and Joe is still an ardent believer in Ramtha.

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JZ interview

Unread post by Robair » Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:10 pm

Hello guys
In that interview with In Light Times.

I.L.T How the scientiffic community respond to Ramtha?

JZ. I'am fortunate in as much as I had opened up myself for two years of testing and reviewing by the best scholards and scientists whose fields included religion,world religion,history,quantum physics, physiologists,physicists, medical doctors,and reserchers. I underwent a battery of tests,from the Stanford Gold test,to physiological and medical testing and finally being wired to computers having my 'baseline' determined. This included my heart rate,blood pressure, body temperature,brain activity in all nine channels.
One determined that these were my readings,I channeled Ramtha and his baseline was determined with astonishing results.
Both Ramtha and I were tested on three different occasions ending with the very same results.
the medical team determined that I could never have changed my baseline in a time faster than the computer could modulate the changes into another more dramatic baseline of Ramtha's.So I underwent all this testing (as Ramtha so long ago said would happen) and came out with sort of a Good housekeeping Seal of Approval of being genuine.


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Unread post by Wakeup-Call » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:42 pm

It would be great if 60 Minutes would get on this as an expose. She's getting so out there in her marketing and so far beyond "stretching the truth" now that she's outright lying.

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