Is RSE A Cult? thread 1.

What experiences led to your opinion that RSE is, or isn't, a cult ? Address issues; no flaming tolerated.
Tyger

Is RSE A Cult? thread 1.

Unread post by Tyger » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:23 am

Is RSE a cult?

The only thing missing from RSE is a pentagram carved in the floor, and human sacrifices by the light of the moon.

Lost in Space
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Unread post by Lost in Space » Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:12 am

I hesitate for some reason to say this to you Tyger. One of my favourite neighbours is a Wiccan. She wears a pentagram. apart from that, she is sane, wholesome, decent, and I am pleased to have her as my neighbour.
The association I offer between pentagrams and human sacrifices is this - those who wore one were slaughtered by the Spanish Inquisition, or tormented, burned, or "dunked" by the local peasantry in merry old England.

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Unread post by Lost in Space » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:04 am

Notwithstanding that (yeah, still yapping) I too think RSE is a cult - and former members like yourself help non members like myself stay "non".

Tyger

Unread post by Tyger » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:04 am

I understand your hesitation. One of my great-great-great grandfathers was Richard De Lionheart. Hacking heads is a tradition in my family. Especially pagan ones. :wink:

Lost in Space
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Unread post by Lost in Space » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:10 am

:twisted: :) And such human sacrifice is contemplated, because???

Tyger

Unread post by Tyger » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:13 am

"human sacrifice"??? I may have missed your point. I started the thread with a vivid metaphor. If you are referring to my genetic predisposition to terminate bad guys.....I have no defense. I am what I am and it is what it is. Bad guys get targeted by good guys.....it's the way of the world and apparently the endless struggle between Good and Evil.

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Unread post by joe sz » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:27 am

Don't hesitate, Lost.
Tsk, tsk, Tyger :roll: Your response has value because it represents the common stereotype or gut reaction to "cult". I know you know better......you do, right, don't you, at least a little better, maybe?

If symbols [white hoods or pentagrams] alone are what someone looks for, that person will miss what Margaret Singer with Janja Lalich wrote about in their definitive book Cults in Our Midst (1994). Most members of otherwise harmful cults live and walk unnoticed in society. And as Lost mentioned, most Goth or Wiccan types that dress the part of eccentric believers are relatively harmless star gazers and dabblers in Metaphysics 101 without sophisticated mentors. I would even include self-proclaimed satanists I've known who were weird, self-centered and sassy but no real threat. The latter were too anarchic to be organized around a strong, pathologically narcissistic leader.

No one joins a "cult" or purposely wants to be "brainwashed" unless you are talking about initiations into street gangs or highly organized crime syndicates like the Yakuza in Japan. Those groups openly mimic military 'test and train' periods [boot camp] the sole purose of which throughout human history in every culture was to create unquestioning loyalty to a chain of command and to overcome fear of following orders that might lead to death if not the fear of dying.

The average totalist cult of the RSE variety is not that ambitious. The leader sets up just enough controls through a self-sealing belief system to sustain a flow of money to herself and just enough doting staff-devotees to keep the system running. Cults like RSE represent what happens when a non-peer-reviewed leader gets drunk on her own power over people willing to suspend disbelief and avoid doubt. Most cults like RSE present 'one trick ponies' that impress the hell out of a believer but leaves most outsiders scratching their heads and saying; "You've got to be kidding me---your paying money and leaving your family for that?

Nevertheless, the private experience of most cult members overwhelms their reasons for doubt, thus "mind control" rules their days that stretch into years and years of struggle to achieve impossible goals.

Lost in Space
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Unread post by Lost in Space » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:29 am

Just pulling your chain.
I see your point. But what am I expected to do, not being a guy?
See, Tyger, you have so many good points, then undo them in the next breath.
But, also, you have told us what's missing at the ranch - the only thing - instead of explaining just what it is that p*****s you off about it so much that you would like to murdelize em. :?

Tyger

Unread post by Tyger » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:34 am

Joe;

Shhhhhh..don't ruin the play. LOL!!!!

Lost;

If I pandered to the audience, I'd be on Fox Network by now. I just don't do that, because I don't experience life that way. It's all perspectives of varying shades of contrast. That's how God created it and even fools like Darwin can't undo that. (Opppps.....I did it again) :wink:

Tyger

Unread post by Tyger » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:39 am

Lost;

And where are you coming off with this "murderize them" print???? That's dangerous to put in a public forum. I used a common metaphor and was making a point. The only thing I truly wish for RSE is acute embarrassment and bankruptcy in the court of public opinion.

Like I said before, it is what it is. But printing felononious accusatory words in print is quite dangerous. Let's try and refrain from emotional responses....shall we? That's how small children get their own murder justified by a parent.

Lost in Space
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Unread post by Lost in Space » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:49 am

U thought I was gonna respond to that comment about Darwin, right?
I said "murdelize" because of your comment about genetic predisposition and taking people out. Excuse my misunderstanding.
The thought I had was that if you keep slamming other groups in the process of talking about RSE, then any helpful, informative and pertinent information you offer may be lost.
Emotional??? You don't think YOU sound emotional?????? And, a common complaint about RSE is it encourages you to switch off your emotions, right?

Lost in Space
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Unread post by Lost in Space » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:54 am

Also, is the word "Terminate" as in "Terminate" bad guys more PC than "murdelize"??

Lost in Space
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Unread post by Lost in Space » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:55 am

U mean, you would fire them???? :lol:

Tyger

Unread post by Tyger » Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:28 am

Hehehehe Lost;

Forgive me, dear lady. This flu is really wasting me and may have gotten the better of my literary skills. Give me a few days to get back to normal. I was just yanking your chain too. No harm, no foul....at least I hope.

<Sniffling>

Lost in Space
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Unread post by Lost in Space » Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:30 am

:roll: Get well soon, and get your bounce back Tigger.

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G2G
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Unread post by G2G » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:11 am

:wink: Tyger likes to stir the pot, right cubbie? :lol:
I do, however, agree with LIS and Joe re interpreting pentagrams, white hoods, etc. to imply "they are the bad guys." Ever been to Salem, Massachusetts? It was heartbreaking to see the headstones of those accused of "witchcraft" - when all they most likely were "healers" using herbs. I've been there and have pictures of each headstone. One poor person was crushed to death! However, I digress. I know people who are members of RSE who have openly told me they don't discuss it with anyone at home, ie, co-workers, friends, etc. They simply say they're "going camping" which isn't actually a lie. All they worry about at times is how to explain the "suntan" when the retreat is during warmer weather. These are people who play in major orchestras, are performing artists, health-care workers in yes, psychiatric units, doctors. And the beat, er, list goes on. Those wishing to express themselves by wearing a pentagram, well, I guess we'd better get on the masons as well, and stop using that dollar bill, because all of the thirteen stars linked together form a six-pointed star - you know, the involution and evolution taught by Ramith?

Tyger knows better, of course, but as I posted on the "older" board, I believe Tyger is employing an "Intergalactic Laxative," if you catch my drift. Thing is, one cannot generalize why people are inclined to go to RSE. First, we don't know it's a cult initially. Second, it's not presented accurately. You don't know what you're in for until you get there. Third, the beginner's groups seem to be fun, or novel. "Just keep an open mind for the time you are here." So okay, we suspend our critical thinking and keep a wide open mind for that beginner's group. Then we keep chasing the "high" we felt, of course, with the idea that there is much more "ancient knowledge" to follow if we pay the fee. Sadly, what occurs is we're more and more drawn into it, (unless you are able to maintain a bit of critical thinking), and students "excuse" the behavior one would term as socially unnacceptable in "the presence of the one and only R!"

:!: Another point. It's not always the good going after the "bad guys/gals." Sometimes it's the other way around. We can't possibly know what the thoughts are of every being in all that exists. When we generalize, we kind of, well, appear foolish to others and even though one might not give a hoot, it does reflect on the validity of whatever else one has posted. We can have the most brilliant, fluid flow of consciousness within any given post, and end it sounding like an impotent gorilla pounding on his thymus. It then could render the brilliant preceding words impotent as well.

On that note, anyone wish to see the lyrics to Donovan's "Intergalactic Laxative?" 8)

Oh no!!! I lost my halo! How will I ever find my posts now!!

:shock:
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972

Lost in Space
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Unread post by Lost in Space » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:45 am

G2G, no Halo anymore :( The old smilies are gone, alas.
In general though this is an improvement over the old site, as less vulnerable to 'infiltration' by current students or teachers who take exception to EMF's existence. And judging from the stuff those particular RSE members have posted on that old forum, they really have had their minds and lives taken over and rearranged, particularly in the area of hostility to those who don't belong to their group, and especially, those who used to belong, have left, and seek to honestly share their doubts, concerns and suggestions for healing.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:56 am

Smilies.

There is a place where more can (and will) be downloaded for use on this forum. It's on the "to do" list. Soon.

Tyger

Unread post by Tyger » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:39 am

G2G says;

"Tyger knows better, of course, but as I posted on the "older" board, I believe Tyger is employing an "Intergalactic Laxative," if you catch my drift. Thing is, one cannot generalize why people are inclined to go to RSE. First, we don't know it's a cult initially. Second, it's not presented accurately. You don't know what you're in for until you get there. Third, the beginner's groups seem to be fun, or novel. "Just keep an open mind for the time you are here." So okay, we suspend our critical thinking and keep a wide open mind for that beginner's group. Then we keep chasing the "high" we felt, of course, with the idea that there is much more "ancient knowledge" to follow if we pay the fee. Sadly, what occurs is we're more and more drawn into it, (unless you are able to maintain a bit of critical thinking), and students "excuse" the behavior one would term as socially unnacceptable in "the presence of the one and only R!"


Quite astute and so very true. A dedicated scientist employs a similar dynamic in the pursuit of their career as well. They search and search and search....never quite knowing where their search is going to take them. Hang out sometime with a few archaeologists and you'll understand EXACTLY what G2G is saying.

There is no "mold" or "fit" for any sort of victim in life....sometimes it simply happens when you encounter people with less than stellar motives....if you catch my drift.

One of the pre-requisites for being sucessful in the military is UNDERSTANDING that there are a LOT of very, VERY bad people in this world and someone has to deal with them. That requires the curiosity to seek them out and find out IF they are good....or evil. The Woodstock world-view that "everything is beautiful (or boot-a-fool....take your pick)" is a crock of poo-poo.

I think RSE and Scamtha's intentions have become self-evident over the years now.

There is NO NEED for any ex-"students" of RSE to feel guilt or remorse. It is what it is and we found out. That's it.

free2ctruth
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Unread post by free2ctruth » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:29 am

Hello all:

I wasn't sure where to post this on this new forum set-up, but this appears as good a place and thread as any. I've lurked on the old site for about a month now and just decided to register here today. First off, I am going to be straight out and say that I am a current student of 22 years (not staff either). I'm not here to hide anything -- I have no agenda -- and if that gets me banned, well...OK. I stand on my own merits. I got to EMF because of following my own research on NVN articles this year and I didn't have a clue about what all the fuss was about -- understandable, considering I've spent the last 3+ years caretaking (and losing) both of my parents ..... intensive issue that kept me busy and out of what has been going on in the community at large. Prior to that, my personal life was so busy that I just plain didn't have the time to connect with what was going on in the community regarding this RSE issue. Maybe I should have "gotten it:" one time when I was asked if I was in school and I said yes, the person said "Really, you don't act like one of them." OK.....what's that mean?

Secondly, I'll say that I am not here to sway anyone on anything -- my entire life has been based on knowing that my own mind was what counted. All my years in school, I have lived with family who never were in RSE and also were afraid it was a cult but never saw such behavior in me that warranted such concern. Actually, I loved having non-RSE folk in my life because it was a good check-point for me. To this day, I have many ex-RSE and non-RSE folk in my life -- we're just people who care about and respect each other. In a nutshell, yes....there are points where we just plain "agree to disagree" but I have never cast anyone out of my life so heartlessly as what I have read over the last month in EMF postings.

I have spent hours and days researching data presented on the old EMF site.......my personal view on that is that I find discrepencies and haven't found the sources presented 100% reliable (so far). As in all things, it remains a work in progress so in that, I literally have no opinion. I do appreciate the site, however, as I have always welcomed true data for consideration in reforming one's own model of life. I am also not here to work to sway anyone on anything -- i.e. I am not going to spend time convincing anyone of anything contrary of what this site is here for.....I will, however, investigate what is presented here for my own growth and personal conclusions of what is valid and what is not. That's important to me: if RSE is a sham, I should know that beyond a shadow of a doubt. So far, EMF has not done that for me, but I look forward to future data presented.

That said, if the webmasters decide not to boot me out....as a current student who doesn't believe that I am in a cult, I will not tolerate personal contact via PMs on here that flame where I am at -- I don't subscribe to that and I will let them know about that, so don't bother. I'm after facts and I've got the smarts and the professional background to know what's legit, what's suspect, and what's just plain garbage.

You probably won't see me post much here as I really do respect what the intended purpose of the site is about. You might see me post in places such as where others are having trouble connecting with "current" students if I can help at all in that venue -- that part has been really hard for me to read about over the last month....I'm not sure I even understand the perceived mentality of "current" students I've read about in some of the past EMF posts there. I will probably, however, push for credible material references (where appropriate) so I can continue in my own research on these issues. I have found so far in my lurking that some issues were misunderstood by the person with the complaint and are presented erroneously as a cover-up tactic by the RSE organization -- I know this from my professional background (i.e. my life before RSE). As I said, my research is a work in progress.

Anyway, best regards for everyone's personal well-being here,

Free2ctruth

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Unread post by Lost in Space » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:54 am

free2Ctuth
your post is decent and respectful, honest, and casts no flames. Would not put you in the same category as aforementioned current RSE members who have abused this forum, and have really been rather poisonous. I doubt you will be kicked off.

Tyger

Unread post by Tyger » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:02 am

Free2ctruth;

I will preface my reply by making clear that I'm not challenging you or flaming anything about your decision to be in RSE. Hell, I made the same decision myself years ago.

As near as I can tell, you are asking for "material references" regarding the "truth" or validity of the school, the channel, and/or the "teaching". I can supply that for you in spades, and it will ask very little of you.

I'm quite sure you either have lots of Ramtha tapes around your place, or have access to them. I'd simply suggest that you listen to a lot of the "Days To Come" material that was presented and recorded on tape from the 1988-1998 timeframes. If you listen with a discerning and critical ear, which should not be difficult since it's all recorded history now and long-after-the-fact, you will most likely see the absolute absurdity of the message that Ramtha was charging thousands of dollars to be taken as a literal truth and prophecy presented from what He/She/It called an "unimpeachable source"....that being the so-called mouth of an ascended master. If you would like a shortcut to all of that rather boring exercise, simply recall that there was no "alien invasion and war in your skies", no "economic collapse of your nation", no "vibrational frequency shifts", and no "mass acensions". To be honest, Ramtha couldn't even manage to predict a 6.8 earthquake that occurred in 1999, who's epicenter was a mere 2 miles from JZ's property. It cracked the dome of the Capitol building in Olympia, which you can also see for yourself. A rather amazing feat, wouldn't you say, for an "ascended master" who can predict so unerringly alien invasions, inter-galactic wars with "Jehovah", and economic ruin for a nation to miss the earthquake in it's own backyard??? The list goes on and on and on and on. All you have to do is listen to Ramtha and compare the words with the evidentiary reality that occurred.

To date: Ramtha's track record is an astounding 0%. Even my dog does a better job, and she's half blind.

Furthermore, you may want to ask yourself, ...if the incredible plethora of failed prophecies was so vastly off the mark, then what does that say about the rest of the "teachings"?? Is it possible or probable that a butcher who can't even manage to grind hamburger properly can perform brain surgery....and on anyone and everyone who would actually pay the butcher???

Simply listen to the words of JZ yourself, and you will have all the "material source" that you could possibly hope for.

Twinkies, gallons of red wine, and Prozac???? LOLOL!!!! I think not. Thanks for commenting. :wink:

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:47 am

Tyger said, "There is NO NEED for any ex-"students" of RSE to feel guilt or remorse. It is what it is and we found out. That's it."

Tyger, I agree with you about this, as it applies to my personal life. However, I also think that people react differently to the same situation. I saw it coming the 1-2 years before I physically left, and I had time to process it and dissect it all, before I actually left. When I did go to my last event, the months after that were emotional for me, but I had a very strong support system (still do), and it all worked out well. But, I also know about myself, that I have an "internal locus of control", which I think contributes to reaction and perception for me.

Not sure if this is a good analogy, overall, but this is what comes to my mind. When we consider the adults in our lives that we've met over the years, particularly the ones we've gotten to know fairly well, and look at their lives - their childhoods, we so much. I think it's fair to say that we've all met people who have come from well balanced, loving homes and who have turned out fine as adults. (Note: I am not equating any of this to being "successful", whatever that would be defined as)

We also have known, met, or heard stories about adults who have made something of themselves, despite the odds being stacked against them in their childhoods. Perhaps they came from abusive or neglectful backgrounds. Or lived in poverty, or with very ill parents. In some way they had some hefty challenges from youth. Yet, they pull themselves up from the bootstraps, dust themselves off, and keep on moving.

Others, who in the same environment, carry a banner for most or all of their lives, waving it around. It says, "I suffered due to....", and they just never, ever transcend it.

Why do some people have, I'll call it a resilience, that others do not have ?

Yes, realizing that RSE was not what it presented itself to be, can be, for some people, "just what it was", and something they need not feel guilt, remorse, ANGER, shame, a deep desire for revenge, etc., about. Yet, some do.

In any case, I'm basically thinking out loud about this.

Tyger

Unread post by Tyger » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:59 am

whatchamacalit says;

"Why do some people have, I'll call it a resilience, that others do not have ? "

Whatcha;

I cannot speak for any others, but my own resilence has been a faith in God that trancends my own available memory. According to my mother and father, I taught myself to read from the family Bible at age 3. My relationship with God has been the central focus of my entire life. Perhaps that is what gives me "resilence" when dealing with RSE.

However, I must also admit that this (RSE) has not been easy. It hurts. Big time.

Thus the "Lord's Prayer".

FreeNow
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Unread post by FreeNow » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:24 am

:lol: I just sat back down. I stood up and sang the song of the horrible Christians. And it felt real good to sing it, not that I believe in religion but it felt good because I bloody well felt like it! Yes, I do sing quite well, thank you.
Keep the greater good at heart.

free2ctruth
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Unread post by free2ctruth » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:26 pm

Tyger:

No, I was not asking for references regarding validity of the school. I was referring to the type of references that joe sz and david post (where possible) -- that's the short version of my reply, I lost my original reply to you on that one.

Whatcha:

I am intrigued by your point about resilience........I've wondered the same thing and currently speculate that it somehow may relate to a betrayal of trust. When a person places total trust in another and somehow turns over responsibility for their well-being totally to another it is a place of vulnerability -- especially if that trust is in an environment of intimacy with another. When a trust is perceived as betrayed, it hurts. Nasty divorces certainly could be one example of that type of reaction in folks....People who are of the type who seem to "defy the odds" in their life appear to trust themselves over the appearances of their circumstances.

anyway, just a thought -- could make an interesting thread of it's own.

Free2ctruth

ex
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Unread post by ex » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:28 pm

No, I was not asking for references regarding validity of the school. I was referring to the type of references that joe sz and david post (where possible) -- that's the short version of my reply, I lost my original reply to you on that one.

it allways blows me away that people who accept the fairytale of channeling and 35000year old worriers need validation for the obvious truth.22 years works on the brain.

Tyger

Unread post by Tyger » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:01 am

ex wrote:No, I was not asking for references regarding validity of the school. I was referring to the type of references that joe sz and david post (where possible) -- that's the short version of my reply, I lost my original reply to you on that one.

it allways blows me away that people who accept the fairytale of channeling and 35000year old worriers need validation for the obvious truth.22 years works on the brain.

Ca-CHING!!!!!! :wink:

Welcome to the forum ex. You got it right in spades.

Whatchamacallit
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:50 am

free2ctruth said, "People who are of the type who seem to "defy the odds" in their life appear to trust themselves over the appearances of their circumstances. "

In lots of situations, that is probably true. It may also be true that there are resilient people who "defy the odds" IN SPITE OF the appearances of their circumstances. Such people have been referred to as the type that will "pull themselves up by their bootstraps". They either don't have anyone to help offer support, or they have guarded against accepting support from others. Perhaps trust has been violated enough times, that they feel safer when they "do it themselves". It may give them a sense of control, albeit it could be a false sense of control.

I have seen a lot of parallels between children who have suffered significant abuse and-or neglect, and the resulting behaviors of people who exit "cults". Lots of parallels. I would like to write an article about it, and have notes made toward that end. I just don't have a lot of free time, so it will unfold in its own time.

I have come to believe that people are really very much alike in many ways. If they are in healthy environments, they will thrive. When the environment (all things included) starts to deviate too far from what would generally be considered healthy and normal, with basic needs being met, love being shared, people can really weather storms quite well.

Actually, a study was done on people in adulthood vs. childhood, and the evaluation was to determine which phase of life is the most resiliency to abuse/neglect. It was determined that the older a person is, when exposed to these experiences, the better they fare. The younger they are, the more skewed the perception of what "normal" is, becomes.

This could be very interesting data when one considers children being raised in cults, who leave them later in their childhood, or young adulthood.

Anyway, I think it's a very interesting topic. The more that is learned about it, the more tools we'll have to help each other, and for professionals to help clients.

AnotherDimension60

Unread post by AnotherDimension60 » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:35 pm

15 years after leaving jz?s arena (literally and figuratively), I still have trouble saying: ?I was in a cult?. It?s been helpful and hurtful to read the info on the old and new EMF message boards about ?coercive? groups and mind control and manipulation. Derren Brown?s work is stunning. If he can pay for expensive jewelry from a New York City jeweler with a blank piece of paper; how can I question that jz must know some of those techniques. And I search still for the ?aha? understanding of how I, who didn?t believe in or participate in ?groups?, gurus, ?Teachers/Masters? or following any one thing or Body, could have gotten hooked into the ramtha illusion. Whatever the explanation, I?ve recognized that I feel shame and embarrassment to ?confess?/admit that I was in a cult. Other less insightful people get hooked into cults, not me. HA!
With the perspective of years and the inspiration/information of this message board, I can also recognize that there are ?cults? within the cult within the cult. That is, there were (and probably still are), different ?groups?/clicks of ?ramsters?. When I was there I identified some of ?those? people as fanatics and mindless ?followers?. The ones who ate copper because ramtha said copper around your house was protective. The screamers and ?warrior criers? that seemed to believe the louder you yelled the more enlightened you were. Etc. I thought I was different. In some ways I was ? in that I felt capable of being in ?social consciousness? ? i.e I had a job. And I was there sincerely ? not for power for powers sake, rather, to find the peace that passeth understanding. Only after I left did I realize that the unbelievable amounts of stress I had been under, and how I literally burned out my body - - this was not peace, this was abuse.
P.S. When I was a regular attender of ramtha events (I hated the ?ramster? identifier), I was adamant that I was not in a cult.

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Welcome A-D-60

Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:51 pm

Your post is very heartfelt and honest. It's also very common for people leaving groups such as RSE, to feel just what you did. I expect that by now, since you've been reading through the posts, you realize just how "not alone" in your feelings and realizations that you have been.

I like your observation about how you came to realize that being in RSE wasn't bringing you the peace you would have expected (that glossy marketing campaign filled with promises), but actually is quite stressful and abusive. You chase a dangling carrot that is always kept just out of your reach.

I've posted this in the past - but it bears repeating now, I think. Before I left RSE for good, I was mentally and emotionally "leaving" even though I continued to attend the events. Unfortunately for me, I had also paid in advance because I just had to be seated in or very near the front. It only kept them there a little longer. Oh, well. My last 1 - 2 years there, I was witnessing such a deterioration in the teachings (abuse, sexual stuff, ridicule, child abuse, etc), that I used that last number of events to see the events through new eyes. I stopped almost all "participation" and during events when days were optional, I left and went off to do my own thing. During disciplines, I rarely participated anymore. I just observed the behaviors of people. NOW, in restrospect, I am glad it worked out that way, because it helped me to have a certain closure that I might not have had, had I left abruptly.

In the privacy of my home, and even in Yelm Library when I would duck out during "daytime optional" events, I would google "ramtha jzknight rse fraud cult". I found some very interesting information. That's how I came across the Factnet Msg Boards, where there was a folder for RSE. I read, and read, until 3 a.m. and I was falling asleep at the computer. Now, here I am. In part, I have Factnet and meeting up with David, to thank for my departure. But, also myself, for having the guts to take a look at the wrongdoing at RSE, and facing it. As YOU said, it is NOT easy to admit one was conned, and in a cult, caring SO much about the leader, the teachings, and being sincere - only to discover you meant nothing more to them than your next event payment. Easy come, easy go. It's a hard pill to swallow, but it truly is freeing. We really do get OUR life back. We're here to LIVE our lives and enjoy them, not stress ourselves out trying to uphold the elusive character role of being God.


At my last event, I knew it was over. Done.

The fallout from that over the next 4-6 months, then missing my "mandatory" event, making me officially non-current, still hit me fairly hard (emotionally hard). I had/have a great support system to get me through it. I read, read, read.

Now, two years later, I am VERY happy, centered, and have a quiet joy inside that has healed, leaving a scar that is strong enough that I can move on. But, I won't go away quietly - forgetting those that will come out of that place after me.

With all sincerity I say to you, THANKS for posting. There are more lurkers than posters, and we've heard from them how much READING helps them to heal, too. Your story will surely help others that you likely will never see. If you post for a short or long time, that's fine. Whatever works for you. I simply mean, we are real careful about not becoming the "anti-cult cult". There are divergent viewpoints at this site, and no strings attached. As it should be, respectfully of one another.

AnotherDimension60

Unread post by AnotherDimension60 » Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:46 pm

Thanks, Watcha for your response. Interesting that my leaving had a similar pattern, tho different time frame.- As I write this I realize that it?s actually really hard to tell when the ?cracking?/awakening began. A definite phase in the process is the schizophrenic separation of JZ and Ramtha ? in spite of having being told in ?84 what a Chirsted Being JZ is; and certainly in spite of hit you in your face evidence that she ain?t no Christ according to anybody?s manuel! There were many many, as you would call, ?red flags? along the way ? all rationalized until a moment when it was simply time to go. As you, I went to another event after that knowing. As you, I took that silly little millimeter step back in perspective, in observation?. ?. I?d listen to 45 minutes of a friend telling me why she?d left the ?School? and the evidence she had of fraud-ness. I discounted everything ? isn?t that just amazingly bizarre?!! We?re intelligent people!! How could I rationalize away black and white in print evidence?! ? What most struck me, ironically, was my friend?s statement about the FEAR ? how everything was about FEAR. My typical response to that was ? I?m not afraid of dying, it?s living that?s the hard part. Nevertheless, in my stepped back perspective, I saw the FEAR, I smelled the Fear, everyone was being run by Ramtha by FEAR. ?.. A major crack came at the event when Ramtha started out all sweetness and light and love and oh so Spiritually wonderfulllllll and suddenly, as in one moment to another it was an angry threatening judging I will bring you down Ramtha ? over smoking!!! ?. I smoked during that event, I wasn?t brought down. And I smoked at the next event ? maintaining that step back ? and the ?teaching? was so absurdly trite and empty and meaningless and everyone was proclaiming how awesome it was.!! It was at that event that I?d gotten that going to the ?tank? had become the ?social consciousness? of the ramster world?. I sat in my car ? ate, smoked, read, slept ? and experienced a Joy I have no words to describe. A liberation. A Freedom. A undefinable weight lifted from me. ?. Kinda like the particle/wave thing. ? Leaving was a process, and a single moment when I knew.
Meanwhile, your ?recovery? is much quicker and more informed than mine. And, there wasn?t the world of internet info in ?93 that there is now. And perhaps healing/recovery is similar to the leaving ? a moment of wholeness, and a process of cleansing?
Perhaps the single moment of knowing comes when a person decides/chooses to trust That Which Is within them more than the ?god? on stage. I?d be curious to know other people?s perspective on that?.

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Unread post by Tree » Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:51 pm

AD60-
A well thought out, poetic account of your experience.
I think for me, my last two years at RSE, I sat more and more to the back of the arena. And with every repetitious teaching of that damn horse Seabiscuit(no offense to the horse, of course), I kept thinking, "where is the meat of this teaching? why is "he" blabbering on like a drunk?"
This went on for event after event to the point, I finally got the nerve to walk out in the middle of a teaching thinking, "what the hell am I sitting here for listening to this AGAIN? " I went out to a quiet area, found a friend, and we drank wine and played cards and felt that liberating feeling you spoke about.I really didn't miss a thing in that 'teaching'.
I didn't really think about it again until after I decided to miss my fall required follow up. I felt I needed a break.
MISS MY FOLLOW UP AND NOT BE CURRENT??!!! omg! I FINALLY went with my gut this time, and three months later, ran into an ex-student and was referred to EMF.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:11 pm

Seabiscuit...

This brings up two memories for me, that may seem unrelated to others, but they are related to me. Perhaps that will become clear. What I state below was all witnessed by me, firsthand, in an audience of hundreds if not a thousand or more people, at the same time. It's also recorded.

Not intended by anything other than an observation here...

We all listened to how much JZ loved the movie, Seabiscuit, ...many... times. We totally knew her opinion about that movie and how many times she watched it.

We also listened to "Ramtha" talk about JZ's sex life with Blue Body, in detail. (children were present)

We listened to a story about for the first time, it was admitted that JZ drove cars without a driver's license. She gave a reason for why she chose to do that, though I don't recall what she felt she was above the law of. I remember her talking about how she wouldn't get caught because that's her reality.

We listened to her drama with ex-husband Jeff Knight. Our personal relationships were irrelevant.

We listened to "Ramtha" TELL US we had to donate to local charity for the holidays. (I personally resented this because if I have $5 or $500 or $5,000 I elect to donate, I reserve the right to donate it to my own neighborhood, not support the one I'm commanded to. Conversely, I've never told anyone at RSE they "had to" or even asked them, to support my neighborhood/town/county/you know what I mean)

We listened to what we should support, politically. Our opinions were irrelevant.

I could go on and on with examples that will support the point I'm going to make. As individuals, our personal lives and stories didn't matter to JZR. JZR's drama (good/bad/indifferent) was what mattered. That level of continuity with the same behaviors smacks of an unhealthy level of narcissism. It's a red flag in and of itself. But, when you have sincere people, searching for God, expecting, hoping and believing that what was MARKETED as a product/service (full God-man, God-woman realized in the flesh during this lifetime by just doing the disciplines which JZR designed to work), these people will tolerate more than they might in another situation.

I was at a conference fairly recently where the discussions all revolved around healing modalities for traumatized youth. I'm talking VERY traumatized children of all ages. The parents of such children who have them in their care, were spoken to about being careful not to "absorb" the emotional stress from the pressure one can feel from caring for youth who can/will act out in very disturbing ways. Studies have been done that have shown that the stress upon the caregiver, alters brain patterns.

Now, if we look at just how powerful AND how vulnerable our brains are, perhaps it can become easier to see how yes, INTELLIGENT people can...and do...get slowly, steadily, drawn into groups such as RSE. These groups aren't without some level of awareness about how to control groups of people. I was told (this is NOT firsthand info) that JZ sent staff to Europe I believe, to purchase a VERY expensive manual on how to control large groups of people. I'm withholding the details about what I was told, but it included names. I wish I had known that many years earlier. I just learned about it 1-2 years ago.

The red flags that are there for us to see, are blessings in disguise. The pain of looking, the pain of exiting, is so hard. It's like the final stages of delivering a baby, but then after the birth is over, it really is just that - we've really given birth to ourselves - not giving ourselves over, mindlessly, to be the puppet of some guru.

I remember JZR insulting the Catholic church because especially in confession, people were giving their power away by having a priest as an intermediary before ourselves and God. Welllll .... in similar manner, despite JZR saying we can NOT evolve without the help of "him" as our hierophant, who will do our bidding for us where we can't do for ourselves (gee, what about the dead students?), JZR becomes for current students, an intermediary. Thankfully, for ME, I still believe there is something called "God" - a supreme intelligent design to LIFE. I just do not at all believe I need any type of intermediary between God and myself. Certainly not a narcissistic, sociopathic 'teacher' like JZR (my opinion, not intended as a slam - just honest observation and conclusion).

Yes, the brain can do funny things. We were guilty of trusting, that's all. Because we're intelligent, we got OUT. No easy task.

Now (for me), it's like a scar in life. Losing a loved one - the experience is one we will never forget, but it also isn't going to cripple us from being fulfilled the rest of our lives in most cases. It's that "feeling" of loss (for me) that I have relative to the RSE experience, overall. While my overall life is very content and happy and filled with blessings, RSE left an emotional scar that I had to transcend or sink in the quicksand of.

A book I read , and a person I interviewed for a video, both said that people get sucked into and get out of, cults, in various ways. We each have a unique story to tell, though the STAGES, are similar to how it happens. I found that very interesting. I'm grateful when others share their stories. We're all different, and yet, we're really all the same.

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Re: Is RSE A Cult?

Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:48 pm

Tyger wrote:Is RSE a cult?
Since my daughter got involved, taking the kids with her, all my research on the web says it is primarily a SCAM, but for those who get hooked, it also seems to be a cult.
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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skeptic site on Ramtha

Unread post by joe sz » Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:14 am

This may interest some of you if you have not seen it already
http://www.skepdic.com/comments/channelcom.html
a portion is below:
3 Aug 2007
Regarding your article about Ramtha, I wanted to drop you a note regarding how people like JZ Knight harm their followers. My mother, along with many others, got hooked into Ramtha back in the eighties. They were told to move to Washington if they didn't want to be killed in the "coming earth changes." If you had other commitments.... Well, just forget about them. leave your spouse, don't worry about paying your bills, just leave it all behind and it will all work itself out. The alternative to this suggestion was very grim, explained as "I'll see you next time," meaning in your next life. My mother was so sure of these predictions she even bailed on my wedding, fearing certain death if she left the safety of Washington for even a few days.

After spending some ten years living in a place with little opportunity (Yelm), and spending all her money on Ramtha seminars, my mother finally left Washington feeling like she had been had, and she was. She threw away those important years, and capital that can't be replaced. She's now all alone, trying to scrape up a living on Social Security.

A co-worker of mine has a similar story about his aunt. She left her well-to-do husband because he didn't buy into Ramtha, took half his life-savings to live in Washington with JZ.

I remember vividly hearing many doom and gloom predictions that never came to be. Everything from a stock market crash to major earthquakes. A clever mix of truth and lies can be a difficult thing to resist for anyone who has lost their way. Your "misfit" term pretty much sums it up.

One more thing....fear is what drove many of these people to Washington: fear of death in the "coming earth changes." We see this tactic used time and time again.

Gary

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Unread post by HumblePied Piper » Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:20 pm

I would like to postulate that JZ's interest in bringing her "subjects" to Yelm has an alterior motive.

- Abusers and controllers flourish in an atmosphere of isolation. Moving folks out to Yelm, taking them away from their friends/families, also physically removes them from their support network. Now it is easier for the "subjects" to seek those affirmations, advice, human needs, togetherness, etc. from what they have available ---- the ranch.


I think many ramsters keep "trying" to get validation from JZ and the ranch.

I can associate that with how an abused spouse stays with his/her abuser. Or how a codependent is inevitably wrapped up in the life of an addict/alcoholic.


From the people I know that have attended RSE, I see many of these personality traits -- especially the codependency. I wonder if JZ has or was brought up with alcoholism?

food for thought
hpp
Stopped going to the hardware store to get milk.

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Unread post by Tree » Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:59 pm

Yes, Humbled, she was.
She even verifies it in her book.
Dang, I forgot the name of it. I guess that is a good sign :) :roll:

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Unread post by Tree » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:00 pm

I meant her autiobiography...
and now I remember :roll: A State of Mind
she said at one time she was going to do a second autobi but it would be too depressing.
omg
even millions of dollars does not make a person happy :shock:

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8 points characteristic to a cult

Unread post by Tree » Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:50 pm

Brainwashing, mind control, thought reform, coercive persuasion and totalism are synonyms referring to the psychological environment present in cults.1 UBF is not alone in employing manipulative and coercive tactics to deceive and ensnare unsuspecting recruits.2 In this page I present an eight-point description of characteristics common to cults.3


1. A cult is like a secret society.
There is something that members of the cult know that no one else knows.
This can be knowledge of the way to salvation, enlightenment, or some higher purpose.
This knowledge or purpose is presented as the sole source of easy answers to complex life problems.
Knowledge of these secrets is exclusive, and those outside of the group are seen as second-class, unenlightened, condemned, etc.
2. Cults have a controlled environment.
One of the goals of a cult is to cut the member off from ways of thinking that are different from cult thinking.
A very effective way to do this is to control the members' environment down to who they associate with, which types of media they read, and which other groups they belong to.
The world outside the cult is viewed with suspicion as something evil.
Thus, cult members are supposed to limit contact with alien persons (including family), activities and ideas.
In extreme situations, communal living provides the ultimate in milieu control.
3. Cults foster spiritual, emotional, and psychological abuse.
When someone uses your spirituality, emotions, or thoughts to further their own ends, without respect to your wishes, it is called abuse.
Typically, cults employ coercive, manipulative tactics to change members' behaviors or beliefs gradually and subtlely so as to conform to a premeditated goal.
Good manipulators can make you think that you came to a decision on your own when you were really forced.
Cults promote a lack of respect for interpersonal boundaries and individuality.
Such groups expect access to every area of their members' lives, making major and minor life decisions on behalf of the member.
In cultic environments, conformity is promoted and members become psychological clones of their leaders.
4. Sacred doctrine.
Questioning the system or the leaders is taboo.
All thoughts or experiences members have that bring the system into question must be quelled (thought stopping).
5. Intensity.
Cults are characterized by charismatic leaders, forced smiles, wearing masks (figuratively speaking), fanatical devotion, and extreme demands.
Intensity is a substitute for intimacy in relationships between leaders and followers.
Long, intense meetings overwhelm members' senses, resulting in a state of psychological dissociation or trance.
The psychological pressure within a cult is so extreme that it is easiest for members to follow the group's leading despite doubts and discomfort.
Cults attempt to engender a continual state of confusion in members by periodically changing the rules or making bizarre requests.
Also, members are coerced into making verbal or written commitments regarding their intention to pursue cult goals.
6. With loaded language, non-traditional meanings are given to normal words and phrases, and new special buzzwords are created.
Cults use this language to communicate complex, often confusing or paradoxical, ideas in simple words that seem reasonable.
Psychologist Robert Jay Lifton calls this loaded jargon a "language of non-thought" because details and logic are glossed over.
7. Deceptive recruitment.
Cults don't tell members upfront about everything that is entailed in group membership.
Initially, members are smooth-talked and smothered with love.
This is called the "love bombing" or "honeymoon" phase.
Later on, when members have at least partially committed themselves and come to trust the group, the more heinous aspects of the group are gradually introduced.
Groups that have established a reputation of being cultic often deliberately use a different name or otherwise attempt to hide their identity from prospective members.
8. Cult membership is a trap, meaning that it is easy to join and hard to leave.
Cult involvement may start out with something as innocent as an invitation to dinner or a lecture.
At the beginning, cults shower recruits with attention and love.
Gradually, members become psychologically dependent on and, many times, addicted to the group.
Also, members are conditioned to believe that to leave the group would do serious mental, physical or spiritual harm to them.
In addition, it is difficult for cultists to leave their group because of the amount of time, money and effort they have invested in membership.
Exiting cultists are faced with daunting challenges such as:
reconciling their mistakes,
reconstructing their identity,
and rebuilding their social network from scratch.
To make matters worse, those who leave cults can expect to be shunned and slandered by the group members.


http://ubfsurvivor.info/cults.html

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A new kind of cult??

Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:34 pm

From my research, since getting dragged into this, I seem to see one major difference between RSE and other cults I have read about. With Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate, Branch Dividians, etc, all the leaders seemed to totally believe their own BS, and died with their flock. In the case of Judith Knight, I suspect it is purely a money scam and she does not believe a word of what she is preaching. She is a multi-millionaire, and continues to extract huge sums of money from her faithful followers. If she believed the 2012 story, what good is all that money, since it will be worthless after the great global upheaval? Why take money from students, when she could just manifest it herself?? Why copuright Ramtha? Surely he can control the use of his own name? Why make students sign a very restrictive waiver of responsibility? Can't Ramtha take care of his students? Why sue other people for trying to spread the "gospel"? Isn't Ramtha only motivated by improving the life of the people of this world? Why wouldn't he welcome all the help he can get? If the idea is to improve people's lives, why would Judy refuse admittance to those who have already given her all their money??

Just my opinion, but I think for the "students" it is a cult, and a very insidious one, but for Judy Knight, it is just a highly profitable, highly successful SCAM!!
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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ICSA view of "cult"

Unread post by joe sz » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:01 am

http://icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/l ... m_cult.htm
On Using the Term "Cult"

Herbert L. Rosedale, Esq.
Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.


Even though we have each studied cults and educated people about this subject for more than 20 years, neither of us has ever felt completely comfortable with the term "cult." No other term, however, serves more effectively the linked educational and research aims of ICSA (International Cultic Studies Association, founded as American Family Foundation in 1979), the organization that we serve as president (Rosedale) and executive director (Langone). In order to help others who have asked questions about the term "cult," we here offer some thoughts on the definition and use of this term.

Review of Definitions
According to the "Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary"(1971) the term, "cult," originally referred to "worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings...a particular form or system of religious worship; especially in reference to its external rites and ceremonies...devotion or homage to a particular person or thing." More recently, the term has taken on additional connotations:

3 : A religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious...

4 : A system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator...

5 a. great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work...b. a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion." (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition, 1994)

Robbins's (1988) review of recent sociological contributions to the study of cults identifies four definitional perspectives:

(1) cults as dangerous, authoritarian groups;

(2) cults as culturally innovative or transcultural groups;

(3) cults as loosely structured protoreligions;

(4) Stark and Bainbridge?s (1985) subtypology that distinguishes among "audience cults" (members seek to receive information, e.g., through a lecture or tape series) "client cults" (members seek some specific benefit, e.g., psychotherapy, spiritual guidance), and "cult movements" (organizations that demand a high level of commitment from members). The Stark and Bainbridge typology relates to their finding that cult membership increases as church membership decreases.

Rutgers University professor Benjamin Zablocki (1997) says that sociologists often distinguish "cult" from "church," "sect," and "denomination." Cults are innovative, fervent groups. If they become accepted into the mainstream, cults, in his view, lose their fervor and become more organized and integrated into the community; they become churches. When people within churches become dissatisfied and break off into fervent splinter groups, the new groups are called sects. As sects become more stolid and integrated into the community, they become denominations. Zablocki defines a cult as "an ideological organization held together by charismatic relationships and demanding total commitment." According to Zablocki, cults are at high risk of becoming abusive to members, in part because members' adulation of charismatic leaders contributes to their becoming corrupted by the power they seek and are accorded.

Definitions proposed at various times by associates of ICSA tend to presume the manifestation of what is potential in Zablocki's definition. These definitions tend to emphasize elements of authoritarian structure, deception, and manipulation and the fact that groups may be psychotherapeutic, political, or commercial, as well as religious. One of the more commonly quoted definitions of "cult" was articulated at an ICSA/UCLA Wingspread Conference on Cultism in 1985:

Cult (totalist type): A group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it, etc.), designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders, to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community. (West & Langone, 1986, pp. 119-120)

Because this and related definitions imply high levels of psychological manipulation, many students of the field have associated cults with the concept of thought reform (Lifton, 1961; Ofshe & Singer, 1986; Singer & Ofshe, 1990). Although there are many similarities between these concepts, a cult does not necessarily have to be characterized by thought reform, nor does a thought reform program necessarily have to be a cult. Nevertheless, the two seem to go together often enough that many people mistakenly see them as necessarily linked.

Definitions advanced by ICSA associates imply that the term "cult" refers to a continuum, in which a large gray area separates "cult" from "noncult," or add qualifiers to the term "cult," such as "destructive." These definitions suggest that there may be some debate about the appropriateness of the term as applied to a specific group, especially when available evidence indicates that the group is in or near the gray area of the continuum. This debate can become more acute when the group in question is one that varies among its geographic locations, has different levels of membership with correspondingly different levels of commitment, has changed over time in the direction of greater or less "cultishness," or is skilled at public relations.

Because they tend to focus on certain practices and behaviors, the definitions advanced by ICSA associates are implicitly interactionist. Like all psychologically based models, they presume that different people will respond differently to the same group environment, much as twins can respond differently to the same family environment. Cults are not all alike. Nor are all cult members affected in the same way, even within the same group. Nevertheless, a huge body of clinical evidence leads ICSA associates to contend that some groups harm some members sometimes, and that some groups may be more likely to harm members than other groups.

Using the Term: Considerations
The concept "cult," as with other concepts (e.g., "right wing," "left wing"), is a theoretical type against which actual groups are compared as best as one can with the information at one's disposal. The theoretical type should serve as a benchmark, not as an organizing structure that selects only those observations that confirm a stereotype. It is vital that each case be evaluated individually with regard to the group environment and the person(s) interacting within and with that environment.

Much as people may wish that it were so, the fact is that, at least at present, no scientific "test" incontrovertibly establishes whether or not a group is indeed a "cult." Although ICSA's Group Psychological Abuse Scale (Chambers, Langone, Dole, & Grice, 1994) is a useful and promising tool for assessing groups scientifically, this self-report measure needs further psychometric development and should be supplemented by observational measures yet to be devised. Cult research is in a stage similar to that of depression research when the first objective measures of depression as a mental and emotional state were being developed. The lack of objective measures didn?t nullify the utility of definitions of depression then in use, but the development of such measures enhanced definitional understanding and classification reliability. In the years ahead, we hope to see similar progress in cultic studies.

Because of the current ambiguity surrounding the term "cult," ICSA does not produce an official list of "cults," even though some people mistakenly interpret any list (e.g., a list of groups on which we have information) as a list of "cults." Such a list would have little utility because there are thousands of groups about which people have expressed concern, yet scientific research has been conducted on few groups. A list could even be misleading because some people might mistakenly think that the label "cult" implies that the group in question has all the significant attributes of the hypothetical type "cult," when in fact it has only some of those attributes. Conversely, some people may mistakenly assume that because a group is not on the list, they need not be concerned. Thus, when inquirers ask us, "Is such and such a cult?? we tend to say, "Study our information on psychological manipulation and cultic groups, then apply this information to what you know and can find out about the group that concerns you." Our goal is to help inquirers make more informed judgments and decisions, not to dictate those judgments and decisions.

We try to direct inquirers? attention to potentially harmful practices, rather than to a label. In essence, we say: "These are practices that have been associated with harmful effects in some people. To what, if any extent, are these practices found in the group in question? And how might you or your loved one be affected by these practices?" One of us (Langone) tries to focus a family?s concerns by saying: "Assume, even if only for the sake of argument, that your loved one were not in a `cult.' What if anything about his or her behavior would trouble you?" After the troubling behaviors are identified, then the family can try to determine how, if at all, these behaviors are related to the group environment. A label tends to be superfluous at this point in the analysis.

Thus, we advocate a nuanced, evidence-based approach to definition and classification. We do not ignore or disparage evidence indicating that some groups may closely approach the theoretical type, ?cult.? Nor do we deny the necessity to make expert judgments about whether or not a particular set of group processes harmed a specific person or persons, a judgment that mental health clinicians and other professionals sometimes have to make in therapeutic or forensic contexts. We do, however, advocate that these kinds of judgments should rest on careful analyses of structure and behavior within a specific context, rather than a superficial classification decision.

Such analyses sometimes result in the conclusion that some groups that harm some people are not necessarily cults. A new age group that is neither manipulative nor authoritarian might harm some people because it advocates a medically dangerous diet or psychologically harmful practices. A church may harm some believers because its pastor is domineering and abusive. A psychotherapist may harm some patients because she or he doesn't adequately understand how memory works and may, with the best of intentions, induce false memories in clients. These are all examples of individual harm related to interpersonal influence. They are all examples of situations that might understandably arouse the concern of the harmed person's family and of ICSA. But these situations are not necessarily "cult" situations, even though they may have a family resemblance to the concept "cult." On the other hand, because appearances can deceive, especially in cults, further investigation of such cases may reveal the presence of cultic dynamics. The important point to keep in mind is that classification decisions should be based on the best available evidence and should always be subject to reevaluation.

Even though the term "cult" has limited utility, it is so embedded in popular culture that those of us concerned about helping people harmed by group involvements or preventing people from being so harmed cannot avoid using it. Whatever the term's limitations, it points us in a meaningful direction. And no other term relevant to group psychological manipulation (e.g., sociopsychological influence, coercive persuasion, undue influence, exploitative manipulation) has ever been able to capture and sustain public interest, which is the sine qua non of public education. If, however, we cannot realistically avoid the term, let us at least strive to use it judiciously.

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Unread post by joe sz » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:13 am

I posted that last entry to help focus this discussion but such an involved academic position can also obfuscate it.

sad grandfather wrote
"Just my opinion, but I think for the "students" it is a cult, and a very insidious one, but for Judy Knight, it is just a highly profitable, highly successful SCAM!!"

Unfortunately, scam is only a partial reality. JZ is is saturated with this one-trick-pony Ramtha show. Nobody escapes from self-delusion with her behaviors these past 25 plus years. I believe she's trapped as much as any narcissist-addict is trapped in a damaged personality.

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Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:14 am

I defer to your expertise, but do you think when she is accumulating all that wealth she is really deluding herself that it would still have value after 2012, or is 2012 just to be the reality of the rest of the world, and not hers? I'm sure it is quite a power trip for her, knowing she has total control over such large numbers of people, but it seems she is hardly delusional, since she controls her business so effectively. Being an outsider, and likely one of the world's greatest skeptics, I'm sure I have trouble "getting it", but I need to learn the thought processes if I am to be able to talk to my daughter and grandkids.
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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Unread post by joe sz » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:00 am

my 'expertise' is dubious in the academic world but I do know that whenver anyone heads up an experiemnet to set up a cult like atmosphere, the experiementer can easily get caught up in it too.
1. In the real story of "The Wave" docudrama, Ron Jones did get caught up in his 1967 classroom experiment to teach the high school kids about Nazi Germany --in the film he is called Mr Ross.
2. Look at Philip Zimbardo's "prison experiment" of 1971
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
these experiements are impermissible since the late 1970s in social psychology research because they not only work to change the psych of the "volunteers" but they also change the psyche of the experimenter.
In both the cases I cited, the wives of the men intervened to let them know how carried away they had gotten.

yes, the cult or "scam" leader knows that if he/she cranks up the fear of the future and the oppressive social environment and intensity of the cult rituals then the true believers will give more effort and time but the leader also gets caught up in the energy of the drama and half believes in it because it seems to work so well. That world envelopes the leader so that anything else gets real fuzzy. The leader develops a dependence too.
Joe

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Unread post by joe sz » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:28 am

re delusional does not mean ineffective or dysfunctional. Ineffective, dysfunctional cult members are generally left behind or kicked out by the cult that only encourages. Most cults I have studied among many hundreds want to retain deployable agents not nutcases with schizophrenia or some other "unmanageble" disorder.

Think "Perfect Soldiers" as in Al Qaeda
http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Soldiers- ... 0060584696
I have this book.
"McDermott's detailed biographies of the hijackers go far beyond the characterizations of the 9/11 report, and he is skeptical of accounts that portray them as deeply disturbed: all came from intact families, most were middle-class, few were deeply religious, none were abused or estranged. Recruited for the hijackings and informed they would die, they thought it over and agreed. "

To change the mind of a cult member as an exit counselor I must treat them as an equal, as a human being with the same basic feelings and desires that I have. I assume that if they knew what I knew they would not be where they are. Of course, my assumptions are not always correct!

hope this helps

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Unread post by joe sz » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:33 am

oops----needed to finish this: Ineffective, dysfunctional cult members are generally left behind or kicked out by the cult that only encourages the best to remain. It takes enormous skill to rationalize bizarre teachings like RSE's and convince oneself that it is real.

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Sad Grandfather

Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:07 pm

First of all, Sad...keep on posting ! I didn't reply to you as promptly as I could have, but life happens.

Nevertheless, I want to make a few quick points before I take my son to his doctor's appointment.

* It doesn't matter if JZ Knight is/isn't delusional. She's continuing to do what she's doing. She's either and doesn't care one hoot because her allegiance is to herself, and perceived power and love of money (narcissistic sociopathic guru syndrome...google it). Or, she has, as Joe said, become the role and is deluded into believing she can pull it off, since people reflect to her that this is so. ( I personally don't believe that; I vote for the sociopathic explanation)

* I strongly believe we should not tiptoe around the use of the word CULT.

* I would not give credence to ICSA for definining "cult"; as they have some skeletons in their own closet that affect credibility. I'm willing to "go there" in conversation if anyone wants to. It's probably long overdue. What I see going on there only makes it more suspect, not better. I also know others who have silently witnessed what I have, and more.

* If you 'google' WIKI CULT, you will come up with an excellent, non-biased viewpoint of what a cult is or isn't. The bottom line is that people have been arguing the semantics of the word cult from at least 1920. Personally, I'm not willing to engage that debate; if it looks like a cult, acts like a cult, leaves a trail of damage like a cult, the leader acts like a control freak with all the cult control trimmings, etc., then it IS A CULT, and that is my firm opinion, having been there for almost 20 years.

* Sad G, YOUR QUESTION was about what, how and why your daughter and grandchildren think as they do, so that YOU better understand. I will address this issue when I have time later on today/tonight. I have a lot to say about it, because as I mentioned, I was there, at far too many events, for almost 20 years. I know exactly what the "message" (brainwashing) is, and the effect on one's thinking that occurs. I'll "let you in" on the inside workings of a student's thinking.

Sad G, you mentioned you're around 85 years old if I recall correctly. This is my OPINION, but at the end of the day, I think that you need to put yourself first. You have limited control, so I hope for YOU that you don't waste your Golden Years going overboard with something that is beyond your control. Having said that, I'll give you plenty of clues into their heads, to help you as much as you are going to be able TO help. You can lead a horse to water, but it's not going to drink unless it wants to. That's a key thing to remember. Really. My family will vouch for that. It took me FAR too long to get outta that place and that was WITH red flags !!! I even had the audacity to be non-compliant, but I didn't manage to get myself kicked out. I think I was partially hoping that I would.

More later.

Whatcha

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Re: Sad Grandfather

Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:21 pm

* It doesn't matter if JZ Knight is/isn't delusional. She's continuing to do what she's doing. She's either and doesn't care one hoot because her allegiance is to herself, and perceived power and love of money (narcissistic sociopathic guru syndrome...google it). Or, she has, as Joe said, become the role and is deluded into believing she can pull it off, since people reflect to her that this is so. ( I personally don't believe that; I vote for the sociopathic explanation)

I agree "is/isn't delusional" Is irrevelent to the problem at hand.

* I strongly believe we should not tiptoe around the use of the word CULT.

* I would not give credence to ICSA for definining "cult"; as they have some skeletons in their own closet that affect credibility. I'm willing to "go there" in conversation if anyone wants to. It's probably long overdue. What I see going on there only makes it more suspect, not better. I also know others who have silently witnessed what I have, and more.

* If you 'google' WIKI CULT, you will come up with an excellent, non-biased viewpoint of what a cult is or isn't. The bottom line is that people have been arguing the semantics of the word cult from at least 1920. Personally, I'm not willing to engage that debate; if it looks like a cult, acts like a cult, leaves a trail of damage like a cult, the leader acts like a control freak with all the cult control trimmings, etc., then it IS A CULT, and that is my firm opinion, having been there for almost 20 years.

* Sad G, YOUR QUESTION was about what, how and why your daughter and grandchildren think as they do, so that YOU better understand. I will address this issue when I have time later on today/tonight. I have a lot to say about it, because as I mentioned, I was there, at far too many events, for almost 20 years. I know exactly what the "message" (brainwashing) is, and the effect on one's thinking that occurs. I'll "let you in" on the inside workings of a student's thinking.

That would be appreciated!

Sad G, you mentioned you're around 85 years old if I recall correctly. This is my OPINION, but at the end of the day, I think that you need to put yourself first. You have limited control, so I hope for YOU that you don't waste your Golden Years going overboard with something that is beyond your control. Having said that, I'll give you plenty of clues into their heads, to help you as much as you are going to be able TO help. You can lead a horse to water, but it's not going to drink unless it wants to. That's a key thing to remember. Really. My family will vouch for that. It took me FAR too long to get outta that place and that was WITH red flags !!! I even had the audacity to be non-compliant, but I didn't manage to get myself kicked out. I think I was partially hoping that I would.

I am actually 74, but with my disabilities from a bad accident, 30 years ago, and effects of radiation (cancer) 20 years ago, mean I likely won't make it to 85. I am realistic enough (I can't create my own reality) to know I have practically NO control over the situation, so am pretty well resigned to the idea that I may not live to see it resolved. My grandson (18) should be going to college next year and I hope this helps him to escape. My grand daughter (14) has been homeschooled since 2nd grade so is totally controlled by her mother, snd has 4 more years before she can go away to college. My daughter and the kids left Monday, driving to Yelm, with intent to stay there. My son-in-law, who says he does not buy into the whole ramtha thing, but is in denial, has been left behind under orders to sell his business and all their property and join them there. He has always been inclined to "go along to get along". I think the economy being in the tank, may be a plus, since I don't think he will be able to sell everything any time soon, and I think he is overly optimistic as to what it will bring. I have strongly encouraged him to hold back most of the money, if he is able to sell. He says he knows he will have to keep control of the money, but his track record, to standing up to my daughter, is not great.

Again, I know I have done all I can do and "what will be, will be". Unfortunately, my wife has been slowly descending into Alzheimer's for the past 2 years, and this mess, which became known 4 months ago, seems to have accelerated her decline, as she is not as pragmatic as I am. I'd like to live to see my grandchildren escape, but if my daughter wants to stay there, intending to live forever, until she dies, well "so be it".

More later.

Whatcha[/quote]
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:04 am

Sad G,

It sounds like you have a very realistic handle on your role in this situation.

74 isn't old !!!!! (hehe)

You sure have an ally in your son-in-law. At worst, as you said, he's going to follow the directives your daughter gave him. At best, the economy will help him to cool his heels and it will give you time alone with him, to spoon feed him some info to strengthen his backbone. It can't hurt.

Yes, it's great that you have the one grandchild going away to college !! The other one, being four years away, may well be very ready to go by the time four years comes and goes. We'll see. Being under her mother's thumb might work against mom, in the long run. As we all know, kids tend to grow up and exert a mind of their own !!! SHE may be the one, after all, who puts your daughter in her place if daughter gets too pushy with her Ramtha drama-demands. Kids just want to fly free. Time will tell.

When one gets enticed into the Ramtha fold, they are lured with "science". It's partially hard science; partially pseudoscience. Especially when it gets blended with metaphysics, and doing your disciplines to create your reality, it's just this big pot of soup that leaves one unable to see where what's real starts and what's "Ramtha's model of reality" starts. Totally blurred boundaries, and the less a person knows about science, the more easily the boundaries blur. It's taken at face value by many people.

So, you quickly are taught that your thoughts affect the quantum field, such that it is imprinted with an electromagnetic signature that YOU alone, own. Thus, the reality that you focused upon, has no choice but to congeal in the physical world, on your daily timeline. It will come right to you. It is this belief that justifies SOME students behavior of slacking off because they think everything they Think Upon, will simply show up on their doorstep. Including healing the physical body. There are plenty of dead students; long time students. So, the theory, even if one argued that it's true, does not work all of the time, so it's FLAWED. Or, it's total crap. (my two cents)

Nevertheless, JZR takes care of that lil' problem.
If you don't get what you focused upon, then it's your own fault. You either did not focus in sincerity, you held doubt (which acts like an eraser), or you don't reallllllly want it. Of course, those are excuses that attempt to take the light of accountability for a FAILED TEACHING off the teacher, (or scam artist), and deflect it back upon the student ~ who aptly blames themselves. The fact is, the students who focused dutifully, with terminal illnesses, WANTED to be healed. They all would have given much, for their teacher, who has the power (allegedly), to grace a healing upon t hem. But, it was denied. If the teacher failed to see them worthy of healing, IRREGARDLESS of their doubts, etc., then in my opinion, it's a bold hypocrisy for the teacher to then expect a student to see value in themselves, and/or their ability to be healed. It's a double standard message. There is no UNconditional love in that equation. It's about judgement.

JZRamtha screamed Vicki C., in front of a thousand people, when she was dying of cancer. Vicki, despite her harsh personality, was nevertheless a HUMAN being, who admitted her weaknesses (I heard her do so, myself). If I had the power, there would be no illness for anyone on this planet. Even those I'm not terribly fond of. We don't need or want illness on this planet. Yet, JZRamtha blames the students, lets them die, and then tells the remaining living folks that the dead are with HIM in the 23rd universe. There is no PROOF offered of this CLAIM, either.

Students are told repeatedly, that their doubt will stop their evolution, so they work hard to stamp out their doubt. That effort leaves them in a state of malleability and complacency and compliance that is, to me, nauseating. At the time they are full of themselves, thinking they have the most knowledge on the planet, and are SO special because of it (unlike the rest of the swine in the world...and yes, non-students are called SWINE), that the student just keeps trying harder to do The Great Work and Behold God in themselves.

There is competitiveness amongst the students to PERFORM successfully. "How many of you did your disciplines ?", JZRamtha asks the audience. Raise your hands !!! The students becomes driven to do DAILY disciplines, up to many hours per day. They want to shut out anything not of equal status in their mind, as it will put them at risk of being tainted in their mind.

What's really going on, is the student is unknowingly suppressing their own critical thinking, and alienating themselves from friends/family who are not in the "school" (I use that word loosely).

The teachings are, in my opinion, incestuous. By this I mean, that they are a closed system. They take care of their own, from within, and they have an unseen wall around their "kind", despite meager attempts at being interested in their overall community. They're not. I have heard JZ Knight ASK STUDENTS TO PROMISE TO ONLY DO ALL OF THEIR BUSINESS AT HER STORE. I was so disgusted. It was around 2003-2004 she did that. I believe it was at a spring REQUIRED event. Yes, "required". Your attendance is ONLY worth your ability to PAY HER THE MONEY. If you can't pay, you suddenly revert back to swine status as you are cut off from the teachings. Students are told they are NOT to talk about the teachings, and are even pressured into signing that gag order they put out, with no prior notice.

She confers with her attorneys and does her best to keep on top of the control at that place.

But, students will usually, at least for a while, dismiss it because "Ramtha knows best". They subjugate themselves to their belief in their Ramtha, and all else, everyone else, is secondary, or a "no-thing". They are encouraged to leave their past behind. ALL of it. Whatever it is, and WHOMever it is !

Students develop an arrogance of spiritual superiority and look down their noses, through their fake smiles, at outsiders. Even if they are icky sweet about it, they think they are better that the poor, ignorant masses. They are the special, radical few. They have their dreams, such as winning the lottery, having perfect health, attaining christhood (at least), and keeping what the Scientologists call "suppressive people", at bay.

Right now, however polite they may be about it, and however they may love you, you Sad G, are a "suppressive person". Suspect. Ignorant. When the family attains God Realization, then they can come back to you and show you what you missed, and hope you'll get on board. They believe they are doing the best for themselves, and in the long run, they are also going to be able to help you, too. But, only when THEY are ready. Of course, they're never ready; they can only get lucky enough to get out.

If you have any more questions, keep chatting !

On a more personal note, you might want to do some homework on getting your body's biological terrain into an alkaline state. All cancer thrives in an acidic terrain, and most Americans, with their unnatural diets, are acidic. Read about pleomorphism, and how unhealthy cells can reverse themselves to become healthy cells given the proper pH balance in the body. Alternative healthcare practictioners have been saying this for a long time, and the allopathic community is starting to "get it", too. Woohooo. Party on.

:D :D

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Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:18 am

As to the cancer, I have been cancer free for 21 years, and the only problems, I still have from that, are a result of the radiation. My other problems are a result of my auto accident in 1978 and several falls and broken bones, since then.

I thank you for your insights, and have come to see it about the same as you do. I have even started to understand the thought processes my daughter is going through. Now that is REALLY scary!! Since my major was math and science, I knew from the first time I heard the Quantum Physics thing that she was being taken for a ride, but she was already totally obsessed, and I was just told that she knew so much more than I did and that I could not help being ignorant! :roll:

I will continue to participate on this board, as long as I am welcome. I appreciate everyone here for your support.
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:58 am

Sad Grandfather....

Your participation on this board is very much appreciated,
I am sure your posts will help others find their way...home.

Thank you Watcha...Joe...some very insightful posts..
I would like to start a new thread soon... regarding the use of "NLP"...Neuro-linguistic programming
and its possible use by cult recovery organizations..

Neuro-linguistic programming -

Wikipedia..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-ling ... rogramming



On the subject of ?Cults?..
I make no apologies for calling RSE a cult with a capital C, by avoiding the word publicly I feel
this has led our society somewhat into a ?let?s not go there? syndrome, that ignores the red flags until it is too late,
keeping the word ?Cult? in context with the behavior and practices of organizations such as RSE is always wise....

David.

To call a spade a spade -

Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_call_a_spade_a_spade
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:52 pm

NLP was taught as sales techniques - it's more than likely JZ learned these techniques when playing in the world of sales - and it's very likely she's used these techniques while playing in the world of Ramtha to manipulate participants. i.e. there's reason for certain word patterns, gestures and postures Ramtha consistently uses -- programming listeners....

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Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:26 pm

David McCarthy wrote: I would like to start a new thread soon... regarding the use of "NLP"...Neuro-linguistic programming and its possible use, by cult recovery organizations..?

Neuro-linguistic programming - Wikipedia..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-ling ... rogramming
To me, it sounds like more psycho-babble, but I tend to be a simple man, and when I say something, it generally does not have hidden meanings. When I am told something, I take it as said, but with a huge amount of skepticism as to the veracity of the sayer. At this time, however, if I thought it might help my daughter and grandkids, I might consider exorcism or even waterboarding. :lol: :roll:
David McCarthy wrote:On the subject of ?cults?.. I make no apologies for calling RSE a cult with a capital C, by avoiding the word publicly, I feel this has led our society somewhat into a ?let?s not go there? syndrome, that ignores the red flags until it is too late. Keeping the word ?Cult? in context with the behavior and practices of RSE is always wise....

David.
To call a spade a spade -
Wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_call_a_spade_a_spade
I think beating around the bush, calling a spade by any other name, people wearing a chip on their shoulder and their feelings on their sleeve and general "political correctness", have become a real problem in this country. As a result, I do not refer to myself as a physically and age challenged senior citizen, but as a "crippled old fart". My motorized physical assistant I refer to as my "cripple cart". :lol:
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:10 am

Sad,

"I think beating around the bush, calling a spade by any other name, people wearing a chip on their shoulder and their feelings on their sleeve and general "political correctness", have become a real problem in this country. As a result, I do not refer to myself as a physically and age challenged senior citizen, but as a "crippled old fart". My motorized physical assistant I refer to as my "cripple cart". "

You are just too funny ! I love your sense of humor !!

I also agree with you (and David). There's enough sweeping under the rug that goes on in too many areas of society, personally/locally/nationally/internationally. Us old farts don't always want to be so dang politically correct. We just want to speak out...though I do TRY to at least be respectful. But, I'm human. Sometimes, especially with the whole RSE thing, I get more than frustrated and disgusted.

99% of the rest of my time, I'm skipping merrily along !!!!

That McCarthy is just such a snob; he can't just call a spade a spade, he has to use a capital "C". Some people. (insert HUMOR)

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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:47 pm

Whether or not RSE is a cult or a Cult :wink: a religion, a school or just another New Age 'thing', the bottom line is that it's a scam, an abusive manipulative for profit lie that kills people emotionally, mentally, spiritually, physically. If using the word cult (small or large C) hinders people from hearing the facts about RSE then it becomes self-defeating to use the word in some circumstances. If attempting to communicate with a Ramster then using the word cult will close their mind to anything else you have to say. Even impartial non-Ramsters may accuse you of not allowing freedom of religion or speech. To point out the consistent pattern of classical abuse, the lies, the inconsistencies, the drunkeness cursing accusing ceremonies, the irrelevance of finding or reading cards etc is perhaps more effective. No cult, in the use of the word as a brainwashing organization, has or ever will admit that it's such, nor would any of its participants. It doesn't matter to me if it's a cult - it kills people, that's what matters.

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Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:16 pm

I don't use the word when talking to my daughter since, to her, it just shows that I am "ignorant", attacking and trying to manipulate her. The best tactic seems to be to let her rave on and occasionally, feigning interest, ask an embarrasing question. This displays my ignorance, and gets a very condescending reply, but doesn't shut her down. Of course the result is the same - - I am ignorant and she is enlightened, but I hope, someday, if doubts occur, that she will recall some of my stupid questions.
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:07 am

AD60, I agree with you. It would be fruitless (in a positive, constructive way), to use the cult word in a name-calling way, or an I-told-you-so way.

There's certainly no reason for folks (imo) to be in someone's face, waving a banner that says the "C" word on it, just because they can.

But, the flip side of that is, and what I think a few of us were attempting to say, is if we are afraid to acknowledge the elephant in the room because we're in fear, or being politically correct, that's not going to help, either. By all means, using discernment about when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em, so to speak, so as to not "lose" someone who is going to be volatile if they hear the word when we're trying to help them, is counterproductive.

Yet again, when I was in my last year at RSE, one of my adult children said in response to my critical comments about something I witnessed, she just softly, gently said to me, "That's because it's a cult." Nobody in my family had ever said that. It was clearly not intended to be antagonizing, yet it DID sting me. But, it was judiciously used and properly timed, in that instance. It was being used "against me", but with hope for a "red flag" reaction IN ME, which it did do.

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Unread post by xindy » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:39 pm

I usually post on Friends and Family Members Forum. I've been reading so many posts from so many other Forums and wanted to see the responses to "Is RSE a cult?" For those of you who don't know me, I'm the sister of an ex-RSE member. I have NEVER been in a mind control group and I'm quite ignorant as to the how's and why's of individuals getting hooked by JZ.

Sad You are incredibly funny!
I don't use the word when talking to my daughter since, to her, it just shows that I am "ignorant"
Your reference to not using "the word" got me thinking about what I feel a cult is. Here goes:
  • C = Control
    U = Until
    L = Life
    T = Terminates
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:01 am

xindy said, "C = Control
U = Until
L = Life
T = Terminates "

yeah, that is an apt description. you should copywrite it, you know ! giggle

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xindy
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Unread post by xindy » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:34 pm

Watcha :lol:
yeah, that is an apt description. you should copywrite it, you know !
You're so funny Watcha! In my readings about RSE and other cults, they all seem to have the same purpose and that is to KILL whatever "goodness" a person has embedded in their belief system and turn you into mindless, unfeeling, empty shells. She's an expert in mind control.

She uses the same tactics as our military uses when training especially the Special Forces such as, Navy Seals, Army Rangers, Green Beret, etc. They build you up then smash you down and continue to repeat that cycle until you are just a lump of clay and they mold you into a KILLING MACHINE! The soldiers are stripped of their humanity b/c if they had any, they couldn't do what they are ordered to do.

JZ Controls Until your Life has Terminated. She has you in her clutches as her "slaves" to carry out her dirty work until you finally die (or run out of money). The day will come when you finally hear that "small voice that's embedded in your soul" telling you how "twisted" she is. When this epiphany occurs, you are free to say, "JZ/Ramtha you are an unholy person/entity and DEFINITELY NOT GOD. You can pretend to be whoever you want through your speeches but ACTIONS speak louder than words...make one of my deceased loved ones arise, like Jesus made Lazarus arise from the dead. YOU ARE A FRAUD...sucking the lifeblood of anyone and everything around you."

That's the courage you need to finally leave RSE, and DEAR FRIENDS, that's what JZ/Ramtha has tried to KILL in you. BUT, she doesn't have power over the one true GOD and he's in you always, God is in each and every one of His creations and He will open your eyes to the "false god" that JZ/Ramtha is.

Maybe those of you who finally had the extreme courage to leave RSE have experienced "The Small Voice" and opened your eyes to the reality of who and what JZ/Ramtha is. Maybe if there are some RSE members on EMF and are wavering as to stay or leave, just ask God to help you with your decision.

I pray for all ex and almost ex followers of RSE. May God Shine His Light Upon You and pull you out of the DARKNESS.
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by California Dreamin' » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:35 pm

A very disturbing aspect of the RSE teachings is that one must absolutely guard all of their thoughts, as thoughts are the seeds of reality.

Have you ever tried not to think of the elephant sitting in front of you in the room? It's impossible. Just as it's impossible not to have certain random thoughts. If these thoughts are "lofty," then you are creating your evolution and reality the "right" way. If you happen to have any negative thoughts, or thoughts of doubt, etc., or think badly of another person, you are setting yourself up to negatively impact the reality of yourself or of the someone you were thinking about who happens to be less "enlightened/powerful" than you.

It's really very arduous having to guard each thought and re-train your thinking process, because certainly not all thoughts arise out of conscious intention and awareness. There is lot's of guilt around worrying about your loved one's illnesses etc. because if you worry without doing a blue body healing on them, you are empowering the illness.

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Unread post by xindy » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:32 pm

A very disturbing aspect of the RSE teachings is that one must absolutely guard all of their thoughts, as thoughts are the seeds of reality.
Your reality or the reality that JZ/R's brainwashing techniques have made you to view reality the way He/She/It wants you to perceive it? I am totally uneducated in RSE's teachings but know its foundation is built on false promises that NEVER come to fruition & NEVER will.
It's really very arduous having to guard each thought and re-train your thinking process, because certainly not all thoughts arise out of conscious intention and awareness. There is lot's of guilt around worrying about your loved one's illnesses etc. because if you worry without doing a blue body healing on them, you are empowering the illness.
Dreamin, I have a question. When you speak of having to guard each thought and re-train your thinking process, is this the backlash of RSE's teachings? If a person isn't under the control of anyone, free thinking is just a normal activity of our brain & our brain doesn't need to be TRAINED to do this just as our brain doesn't have to tell our heart to beat...it's automatic!

I think I've witnessed a blue body healing...didn't know it until what you have said. My youngest sister was in Stage IV cancer, was dying and my other sister who is an ex-RSE member would scold me and all others that we were ruining what she was learning to do at RSE. She told us we shouldn't be near our dying sister if we had any negative thoughts as that's what (even in her practically comatose state) she could feel. While at the hospital, I was praying over my youngest sister & was crying. My ex-RSE sister became angry with me so I just sat down in the back of the huge ICU room. I saw & heard my sister talking about the blues surrounding our dying sister and that our sister knows she can heal herself b/c God gave her that power. She kept moving her hands all over my sister's body, saying, "You are radiantly healthy, your cancer is gone." She did this for about 30 min.

Was this a blue body healing I witnessed?

Also, I'm pretty thick. :roll: The elephant thing, is the elephant representing something you know to be false but the harder you try to make it go away the more impossible it becomes? Is this why RSE members can't tell what is real or an illusion?
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by G2G » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:26 pm

Xindy says: " I think I've witnessed a blue body healing...didn't know it until what you have said. My youngest sister was in Stage IV cancer, was dying and my other sister who is an ex-RSE member would scold me and all others that we were ruining what she was learning to do at RSE. She told us we shouldn't be near our dying sister if we had any negative thoughts as that's what (even in her practically comatose state) she could feel. While at the hospital, I was praying over my youngest sister & was crying. My ex-RSE sister became angry with me so I just sat down in the back of the huge ICU room. I saw & heard my sister talking about the blues surrounding our dying sister and that our sister knows she can heal herself b/c God gave her that power. She kept moving her hands all over my sister's body, saying, "You are radiantly healthy, your cancer is gone." She did this for about 30 min.
Was this a blue body healing I witnessed?"

I don't know since that sounds more "Christian healing" to me, at least. The "blue body" healing I learned was a dance...and rebuilding of your own body first..(uh yeah, I'd have taken off a few kgs!) Also, there are the index cards where people are/were? taught to draw a body with blue webs and focus on it with a candle? This was a teaching maybe someone else can explain, since they didn't teach this to my group and I'd only heard from others ("blue star") etc. (can someone help me here?) I, personally, *do* believe in the body's energy centers, and did before RSE. Just another thing "Judy stole.".... But it's certainly not done in yoga the jzrk way!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972

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Unread post by G2G » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:31 pm

Xindy says: "your cancer is gone."

That's something someone wouldn't say, I doubt, in RSE, or even those who are somehow "true healers" if it does exist. They claim to only focus on the person being healthy, so one saying, "your cancer is gone" is then in RSE speak, acknowledging the cancer, if I understood it correctly. The "faith healers," according to a member of my own family who is Lutheran, only focus on the person being healthy and viewing them this way. My brother informed me a person from their church did this to my sister, the "laying on of hands." In my own experience, I didn't see this at RSE, but again, someone with more years might know.
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972

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Unread post by Tree » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:35 pm

xindy said:
When you speak of having to guard each thought and re-train your thinking process,
From my own experience of being IN the group, and in particular my process exiting,
I can tell you the freedom FROM guarding my thoughts was I think second in
my epiphanies.

To answer your question, I believe the guarding of the thoughts is a by product of mind control
(whatever form jz uses). honeslty, I don;'t think she even knew that to be the case,
otherwise she might have even upted the ante even more.

I just know, I'm thinking maybe about 3 months after I realized RSE was a cult (not quite entertaining Ramtha was
real or not yet) that I realized I was still guarding my every thought. Then one day, this guard was just POOF!
gone. And it it was THAT morning that I realized how I had been OVER MINDFUL, to a LUDICROUS degree,
to EVERY SINGLE thought that went through my head. The good, the bad, and the ugly, if you will.
And then of course, if there WERE any "bad" thoughts, to use sooooo much energy in re-directing and focusing those
thoughts so the "bad" ones didn't manifest ( I don't even think one can count the sub-by-product emotions of guilt
or remorse or anything else at that point because we were too busy trying to set our per-chance "negative thoughts"
straight!!) This insight alone was astounding. And in subsequent days, when my brain went down that path of trying to
guard the thoughts (and of course it tried because that is what it was used to for 19 years) I would literally laugh at
myself (that was my tool of choice I guess :lol: ) because I could finally see the lunacy of it all.

This unseen facet in a person's brainwashed mind , because I personally experienced both the brain washing and
un brainwashing, is something even some counsellors can't see, much less the popluation in general.
I do know of a few good counsellors , who upon hearing something like, " OH! I stepped into a hole today and I broke my
ankle and I KNEW i just created that from a thought I had two days ago" from a Ramster can help one
re-assess one's critical thinking skills. The counselor can't quite define what it is that is not normal (of course, this is not including counselors who have cult information and experience dealing with such), but they can help the client weave
their way eventually OUT of such thinking.

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Unread post by Tree » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:50 pm

Blue Body healing was first taught as a dance.
It then evolved to making an outline of a body on a 5 by 8 card and drawing inside the body, blue webs
(because jz read somewhere that some scientist found these blue "carbules").
These two later evolved to a healing "off" of hands.,....by this I mean doing the C+E breath, then focsuing
in your mind the blue body (on the card), then placing your hands about 4" inches above the person's body.

I eventually , in a public setting (but this was NOT the norm at St Pete's hospitol in Lacey where blue body dancing
could be seen being done in the various rooms of ill students) could focus in my head and then lay my hands on
a body. At least that's how I did it. I am sure there were many variations on a theme.

(and I bet if you took a poll of St Pete workers you would get some pretty funny responses!! :shock: )

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Unread post by xindy » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:57 pm

Xindy says: "your cancer is gone."

That's something someone wouldn't say, I doubt, in RSE, or even those who are somehow "true healers" if it does exist. They claim to only focus on the person being healthy, so one saying, "your cancer is gone" is then in RSE speak, acknowledging the cancer, if I understood it correctly.
G2G you're probably correct in saying that my ex-RSE sister probably didn't say, "your cancer is gone." This was just a confusing time for me & sometimes I only heard bits & pieces of what the priests & my ex-RSE sister said. My sister who was trying to heal our dying sister would tell everyone to only think positive thoughts and to surround her with this positive energy. I heard her say something I thought to be about the color blue & that's why I thought maybe this was a blue body healing. If I recall correctly, she also told us we all could heal as that was a God-given gift. Since I am unknowledgeable to the teachings of RSE, G2G thank you for pointing out that my ex-RSE sister did NOT do a blue body healing.

I have witnessed the laying of hands on very sick people and everyone praying over the person to ask Jesus to heal them--this was at a Christian ritual.
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by xindy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:16 am

To answer your question, I believe the guarding of the thoughts is a by product of mind control
(whatever form jz uses). honeslty, I don;'t think she even knew that to be the case, otherwise she might have even upted the ante even more.


Thank you Tree. I think it would be an impossible feat for a person who wasn't under some type of mind control to be able to suppress the automatic thought process.

I can just imagine the FREEDOM you felt when you realized you no longer had to guard your every thought. You are a remarkably strong person.
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by California Dreamin' » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:31 am

Xindy:

I only speak from my personal experience. There are as many personal experiences at RSE as there are students.

RSE's teachings were compatible with and reflected many of the beliefs that I already held at the time I joined. My replies to your questions are based on my interpretations and experience of the teachings.


"When you speak of having to guard each thought and re-train your thinking process, is this the backlash of RSE's teachings?" If a person isn't under the control of anyone, free thinking is just a normal activity of our brain & our brain doesn't need to be TRAINED to do this just as our brain doesn't have to tell our heart to beat...it's automatic!"

We had it driven into us that consciousness & energy create the nature of reality (C&E=R). We aspired to become fully conscious of all our thoughts, since thoughts coupled with actions directly impacted our individual realities. We were taught that all thoughts reverberated and had an absolute effect (be it visible to the naked eye, or invisible) on whatever it was we were thinking about. Therefore, whenever something happened to us be it good or bad, immediately or eventually, we took responsibility for that experience.


"Was this a blue body healing I witnessed?"

In my opinion, you could have been witnessing your desperate sister's personal version of giving a blue body healing treatment. She may have been pulling out all of the stops of any and all healing techniques she has ever learned or been aware of throughout her life and in effect, "going for broke."

As for moving her hands all over your sister's body, we were taught to hold our hands inches above the body being healed. Keep in mind, everything taught at the ranch (RSE) was subject to an individual's own interpretation, thus there were many different ways each single discipline was performed. For example, an RSE student working on their own disease would most likely say "I Am radiant health." "I am cancer free." Thus your sister saying "you are radiantly healthy" and "your cancer is gone" when doing a healing on your sister makes sense from a student's standpoint.


"The elephant thing, is the elephant representing something you know to be false but the harder you try to make it go away the more impossible it becomes? Is this why RSE members can't tell what is real or an illusion?"

No, my comment wasn't about making something that is false go away. What I meant by the elephant thing was simply that when I'm told not to think, all I can think about is "uh oh, I'm thinking," or "don't think, don't think, don't think" all the while I'm still thinking.:wink: :wink:

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Unread post by xindy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:34 am

Dreamin said,
We had it driven into us that consciousness & energy create the nature of reality (C&E=R). We aspired to become fully conscious of all our thoughts, since thoughts coupled with actions directly impacted our individual realities. We were taught that all thoughts reverberated and had an absolute effect (be it visible to the naked eye, or invisible) on whatever it was we were thinking about. Therefore, whenever something happened to us be it good or bad, immediately or eventually, we took responsibility for that experience.
So in other words, your thoughts created YOUR reality. If you fell and broke your ankle, it was b/c of your thoughts & you were responsible for breaking your ankle & not the deep hole in the muddy field.

Thank you so much for your explanation of the elephant. How in God's name were you able to suppress your thinking? How long were you involved in RSE and what finally made you leave?

God Bless You
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:19 am

xindy,

i agree ! short n' simple !

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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:39 am

In the 90's it was called ultraviolet healing. Prior to the dancing. There were events in which we'd be in small groups doing ultraviolet healing on each other - hands over the body. People sometimes gathered away from the ranch and did so.
The thing about controlling one's thoughts must have started in the late 90's - it may be an adaptation of the practice of mindfulness, along with her plagiarizing and twisting the neighborhood walk. There's a world of difference between mindfulness, and attempting to control one's thoughts and emotions.
Just as "you create your reality" is a superficializing bastardinzing of as you sow so shall you reap....

And Xindy - don't think about pink elephants...... :D
now stop thinking of pink elephants.... :D

and what is the "nature of reality" we're supposed to be creating? what does "nature of reality" mean? Is it the essence of all there is? Is it the molding of the clay - or is it the clay.? How many can create a nano? We can manipulate nanos - but not make them. The nature of something is its essence, isn't it? ..... We who were Ramsters never questioned the truth of a non-nonsensical statement.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:15 am

ad60,

do you remember doing the UV healing while still using the 8 x 10 inch sheets of UV colored construction paper ? we'd work on our "colors" so we could get the correctly and that morphed to "being the blue body" to effect healing.

NOW, think about how silly it sounds that one of us would think we'd heal someone's dreaded disease with a piece of construction paper !!! but there was SO much hype prior to having us do that, it seemed a big deal at the time.

scanning from head to toe, etc. well, that's nothing new; it's along the lines of reiki and therapeutic touch. that's not all bogus, either. i know major hospitals where i live who have classes for both as they've seen good results. therein lies the rub. i had a long conversation with a particular person post rse, discussing the issue of "discernment" and trying to ferret out what was true and what is over-the-top. there are gray areas, where jzr blurs the lines in the teachings. then one gets into the situation where one could throw the baby out with the bathwater, when that's not the answer, either.

getting one's spirituality back, after a cult experience, is tricky business !

at least, that's my two cents.

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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:25 am

oh yeah, I remember the colored sheets of paper (and I think Glen referred to where she got that idea in his interview) --- And ala Debbie Christie - just after the first time we did colors, I took my first journey to Lake Tahoe and gambling -- introduced to roulette - I'd just worked with 7 colors, so two was a piece of cake - i.e. red or black --- I did well at roulette!!! :D And I also "got" my keno numbers on the way there - won my first game ever played! Oh how can I ever thank our Enlightened Heirophant for teaching me to win at gambling!!!! (is there a cute little icon for barfing?)

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Unread post by xindy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:19 pm

And Xindy - don't think about pink elephants......
now stop thinking of pink elephants....

AD60, you're a hoot!
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by California Dreamin' » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:21 pm

"How in God's name were you able to suppress your thinking? How long were you involved in RSE and what finally made you leave?"

Xindy -

I've posted this before on an earlier thread, so I don't wish to bore anyone who has already read of my particular situation. I'll abbreviate my situation for you:

I was an active member from 1988 - 2000. Stopped attending events in late 2000, however I still considered myself a member of the RSE studentbody. In June 2008, during a very low point of my life, I stumbled across this website and dared myself to begin reading it. (At that point in my life, I was very afraid to allow "doubt" to enter my consciousness, and was afraid I would somehow be taken down by Ramtha if I read the various EMF postings.

Something began to light up when I started reading this website, and I have been waking up from the RSE induced sleep daily ever since.

I initially stopped attending events because (1) I wasn't learning anything new anymore (certainly believed it was because I was defected), (2) began to hate everything about the "camping" experience of living in a tent and being mostly blindfolded, (3) only wanted to attend to keep current with my friends. Also, I got to the point where I couldn't endure hearing about the days to come anymore. The energy of so many students was becoming focused on doom and gloom. Like a bolt of lightening one day in October 2000, I had my airline ticket and time off work approved and was ready to make the trip to Yelm when I heard something deep within myself tell me not to go to Yelm. I listened to that intuition, and announced to my fellow RSE student friends that I would not be attending that particular event. After making that decision, I felt like a lead balloon had been lifted from my head and chest, and was giddy in the freedom.

With my newfound freedom I got to do things I had always wanted to do but never could, because all of my free time and money was spent in Yelm.

I even got the dogs I had always desperately dreamed of having. (sidebar: At one time Ramtha had discouraged us from having pets as they took up too much time and energy, and prevented our 100% focus and dedication to the teachings.) :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

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Unread post by xindy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:18 pm

Dreamin said
With my newfound freedom I got to do things I had always wanted to do but never could, because all of my free time and money was spent in Yelm.

I even got the dogs I had always desperately dreamed of having. (sidebar: At one time Ramtha had discouraged us from having pets as they took up too much time and energy, and prevented our 100% focus and dedication to the teachings.)
Thank you for answering my questions. I'm so happy for your FREEDOM! What breed of dogs did you get? DOGS...I have 3--a Bichon, a Pomeranian & a Golden Retriever & I call them my little babies. They are with me when I'm happy, sad or sick. They reflect what I'm feeling & cuddle next to me or if I'm happy, they dance with me. LOL

Have a Wonderful Life!
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Blue Body & Pets

Unread post by See&E » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:01 pm

One additional period, post Construction paper "UV" healing, and the analogical dance, after you created an index card with blue webs (like a spider...) connected to blue body...
We were told to draw blue pentagrams on each others foreheads initially. This was a variation of the original C&E breathing technique (years after the rocks on the head era).
Still later, with blue (UV blue) ink, we were to physically draw webs on those parts of our bodies we needed healing. Talk about LA Ink! Students had tattooed eyes, necks, knees, on their chests, you name it. Then you put on your blindfolds while very loud decible music was played (like Rave or German music popular at the time, that went on and on and on) and you visualized the blue webs of one of our 7 bodies (a blue body like the woman in X-Men movie) and when you finished, your knee, neck, shoulder, foot, fingers, hand, heart, liver, cancer, AIDS, whatever would be healed. These pens, were of course for sale at on site, and then, before you left, you had to scrub them off. No one was allowed to leave the premises with any webs on them... but they did.

The placebo effect, the energy/movement of dancing, of believing you were being taught a healing method of the Aborigines, or (Mutant Message Down under book was out the same time) was a welcome change from having to sit cross legged, without moving while you huffed & puffed and "shhhusshhed" for hours upon hours, until "Ramtha, the Lord of the Wind" deemed the energy was "just right".

In the beginning of the school, all disciplines, originally were to be only done under the Rams watchful prescence, in his audience. Then doing the disciplines at home became encouraged, and at least daily. Then, during the divorce trials, we were allowed (for the first time) to listen to the (Audio) tapes replayed while we did C&E inside the great hall for the whole event, and every war cry and hollar, and "yeaa--aahhh" bellowed by the Master Teacher (JZR) was echoed by most in the room.

Originally "supplies" in the school, necessary to become a Master (fill in the blank, Avatar, Healer, Master of the Elements, Levitator, Walk thru Walls, Read Minds/ESP, Remote view, Time Travel, Travel in our Astral Bodies with special "Wings" we were told when we'd earned, to go into a guided imagery "Giant Opening and closing Eye of God" coming out in/thru worm holes, and going down into different realities... all of that only needed:

Water,
Toasting with Water,
Doing the C&E discipline
Have your Construction Paper (of different colors of the Roy G. Biv Visible light Spectrum)
Your colored pencils (for drawing pictures, visualizations, your 'dreams' or things you wanted to "blow" away)
Acquire New Age Music or Movie Soundtrack Music (Cusco; Robinhood, Prince of Thieves; Braveheart; J. M. Jarre; A plethora of New Age Atmospheric Music)
Your pillow
Your mat (for napping)

Sounds more like going to preschool or kindergarten with our colored crayon/pencils, pillow, nap, and blindfolds oh and yes,
The most important thing
Originally you had to pay CA$H or certified check in the

"drop box" and no record of the evil debit card, credit card of the grey men of the world.

Of course, like when the Mormons were allowed to drink caffeine after the purchase of Pepsico in the 70's, one fine morn, credit cards, debit cards, all manner of funds were okay.

Then, one had to obtain an ever changing "Membership Badge" payable in cash, at 10 bucks each time, because the group name, organizational method changed from spring to fall, or year to year..

The group names, vanished without explanation or reason
Then "Primary" or "Secondary" followed the "Beginner" "Advanced" era
then the "Blue College" Badge, etc.

Course then, you didn't have to pay ?xtra to sit up front, it was all "random" (uh huh) and wherever your loyalty, focus, consciousness, C&E was "at" is where you'd be divinely assigned by "Bertha" the random generator computer.

Unless you were one of the "chosen ones" from Paradise Beach or Focus Beach, who got put into "free" groups, and then this didn't apply, where is the logic in that? That one had to "pay their tally of gold in order to gain value in the teachings? )

Ahh,
owa tagu siam

Yup... just found an old UV Blue marker pen here in my desk...
maybe I can create the end to the economic collapse, mortgage crises, create a few million jobs and recreate dignity among 'we the people' ..

I'll let you know how that goes

*"p

See&E
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PETS

Unread post by See&E » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:05 pm

oh yes, ... the PETS

Pets (Cats & Dogs) were only for those people who wanted to be in first three seal consciousness (wanted to CONTROL their lack of love live). Those who had failed relationships, (women and cats was often used as an example) kept the cats, because it allowed affection on their own terms, without any "lip" or feedback, or consequence. They could control if, when, where, those chose to have unconditional love. It was not what a Master would do...

Of course acquiring a special blood line Arabian Horse... that was just a Wise Master who would do that, preparing for the times when no auto-ma-chines would be around any more.

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Unread post by Tree » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:01 pm

cats , in particular, were for women who lost all love interest in men.
The more the woman had cats, the "worse" in a Ramster's eyes they were.

in the most recent years, there were teachings that cats were predators
(looked down upon by ol ramtha lord of the wind)

side note:
I found it odd in Glen's videos he asked ramtha THEN if they had any dogs back in the days of his army.
"ah yes, jackals"

several years later, maybe near the Legacy teachings, we were told his army had stallion sized Rottweilers :shock:

and guess how many Ramsters went out and got Rottweilers? because again the local people
knew when events were and were stealing left , right , and center from Ramsters.
We were told to get either Rottweilers or bear traps (illegal in WA state btw)

this having just a bit earlier been told to NOT have animals as they took too much time away from our
disciplines and becoming enlightened.

Tree
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Unread post by Tree » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:06 pm

"supplies" in the school
would later included:

a 4 foot flourescent tube
bow, arrows
wine, cheese, bread
then chicken, any red meat, olives
Blue College Blinders (oooh-so so special :roll: )
fiberglass pentagram for making cards
fully self contained tents, raingear, food, water and wine for a week to ten days in your tent

we were told at one point, because the classes were evolving, we would be required at every event to bring whatever
the lastest "required" thing was whether it was the latest 3 books that now jz recommended (not to mention the one's
"ramtha" recommended) , new blinders, etc


ps-the flourescent tube we brought to the event in 4" long PVC pipe was never used.
I had heard through the grapevine that the discpiline is we were to focus holding these in our hands
and we would eventually light them up :roll:

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xindy
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Unread post by xindy » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:29 pm

Tree said, "cats , in particular, were for women who lost all love interest in men. The more the woman had cats, the "worse" in a Ramster's eyes they were."

How would JZ/R know if you had pets of any kind? You couldn't bring them to RSE could you?
and guess how many Ramsters went out and got Rottweilers? because again the local people
knew when events were and were stealing left , right , and center from Ramsters. We were told to get either Rottweilers or bear traps (illegal in WA state btw) this having just a bit earlier been told to NOT have animals as they took too much time away from our disciplines and becoming enlightened.
Wow, I can so see the twisted teachings of JZ/R. After allowing you to own dogs (Rotties), wasn't it feared that you would now have an object of affection, showing your emotions which he/she/it tried to smother?
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:34 am

CD said, "I was very afraid to allow "doubt" to enter my consciousness, and was afraid I would somehow be taken down by Ramtha if I read the various EMF postings."

So glad you mentioned that !!

Just want to comment, for anyone who doesn't already know it; it is very, very common for ex-cult members to leave and feel scared that the "leader/guru" (whatever they called themselves) is "gonna get them".

That's addressed (I sound like a broken record now) in the book, Take Back Your Life.

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xindy
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Unread post by xindy » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:42 am

Whatchamacallit wrote:CD said, "I was very afraid to allow "doubt" to enter my consciousness, and was afraid I would somehow be taken down by Ramtha if I read the various EMF postings."

So glad you mentioned that !!

Just want to comment, for anyone who doesn't already know it; it is very, very common for ex-cult members to leave and feel scared that the "leader/guru" (whatever they called themselves) is "gonna get them".

That's addressed (I sound like a broken record now) in the book, Take Back Your Life.
OMG, I feel like I've made you relive something you'd rather forget. I'm so sorry if I encouraged this through my questions.

Not being in RSE myself, I truly didn't know that any ex-RSE follower would probably continue to have FEAR in responding to my questions...FEAR of JZ/R still out there waiting to "Take them down."

If any questions I should ask of you all, please don't feel obligated to respond. Maybe just give me a link to the information where I can look for it myself & not bring back bad memories for you.

I wanted to help you ex-RSE & almost ex-RSE members by bringing out into the open, your experiences. I DO NOT WANT TO CAUSE DAMAGE by requesting info that HURTS YOU.

God Bless You All
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by G2G » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:36 pm

I can say one thing. I *know* "ramtha" cannot "get ME." But, jzrk is sure going to be "gotten" at some point...be it karma or a class action lawsuit!!!

I never felt that "the big guy" would "take me down," because I knew when I left there really was "no big guy." Let's say even if there were, then in RSE lingo, I, too am a "god." So, "god to god," I'd hold my own ground and go toe-to-toe. Had *I* known of all of these things prior to going to RSE, well, rear view mirror stuff, for I never would have gone. However, had I been aware the guy in the audience in the back was being "punched out" by "jz as the big guy," I most *DEFINITELY* would have shouted something and then been tossed out on my butt. I say "bleep you very much, jzrk." I learned a very expensive ($$$) lesson.

Counter with "there is only love, there is only life"..for to me, there are the only true things....
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:07 am

xindy,

don't worry about me; i'm FINE !!!! trust me when i tell you i am one tough broad ! haha human, but with a hefty dose of strong inner constitution and will. ask my mother; i came out that way ! some things never change. (giggle)

i went through my "hell" before and after i left.

now, i'm back to life as normal. i have a delightful life, thank you ~ and i'm very happy !! for me to recount the rse experiences doesn't rattle me at all. if jzr were standing right in front of me, i'd simply tell her what a loser i think she is. she can have all the money in the universe, but it doesn't change who she is.

in my opinion, she's a highly manipulative, evil minded, narcissistic sociopath. that is stated very plainly. factually, in my mind.

my rse experience wasn't all "bad"; there was good there, too. because a lot of the info is taken from eastern philosophy anyway, i learned a lot along that line that i was able to segway into on my own. as far as the bologna she inserted to twist the teachings to her own suitability, those are the things that i worked through. i do not have "flashbacks" or any other manner of negative repercussions in my life from having been in that cult. i consider myself fully recovered.

i CHOOSE to participate in EMF because I choose to volunteer my time shining a light to others when i KNOW they have nowhere to turn. one does not express "doubt" while current in rse !!!! you do that privately, and now people have a place to go, TO do it, with the specific focus on rse-related issues.

however, like a number of other ex-students, if i left emf, i would miss some of the people, but i know full well that the most important thing we can all give one another is what we did not have in rse; true freedom. we purposely don't encourage people to "stay and post" here. we want them to do what THEY need to do. some never post and they only read. some post for a time and move on; some have been posting here from the get go. emf will be two years old on january 1st, 2009.

i went to a cult "recovery" group ONCE (for a number of reasons; there's more to that story). anyway, there was, without a doubt, pressure to RETURN to future recovery events. when i stated that I KNEW (and i did know and i was correct) that i would not need to return again, i was chastised. long story short, i have since learned far more about that organization that supports my experience along with even more that i have learned (not complementary to them). so, in discussing this with key EMF people, we realized more than ever what certain priorities we needed to have here at emf.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:11 am

holy smokes, batman !!!

i just clicked to go back to the main thread so i could go read some more new posts...and i realized that this thread has been viewed over 4,200 times !

apparently our OPINIONS and EXPERIENCES are of interest to others and more importantly, is that they're found of value to those blessed with DOUBT !!! your critically thinking mind...or what's left of it !
bless it and keep on asking questions and demanding answers, current doubt filled students. don't be afraid to call "ramtha" on the carpet for misdeeds. "he" is not "more than" you.

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Unread post by G2G » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:57 am

Can you just see them all "coming into realization" they've been "had"....while at the ranch?

Look out big "guy/gal" ramtha. "As it is seen now, you might be cruisin' for a bruisin."....

8) 8) 8)
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972

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xindy
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Unread post by xindy » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:57 pm

Whatchamacallit wrote:CD said, "I was very afraid to allow "doubt" to enter my consciousness, and was afraid I would somehow be taken down by Ramtha if I read the various EMF postings."

So glad you mentioned that !!

Just want to comment, for anyone who doesn't already know it; it is very, very common for ex-cult members to leave and feel scared that the "leader/guru" (whatever they called themselves) is "gonna get them".

That's addressed (I sound like a broken record now) in the book, Take Back Your Life.
Re what CD said about being "afraid...if I read the various EMF postings." Is this a "fear" that as Tree said is embedded into Ramtha believers or is it more? Does RSE have "people" watching EMF? If so, are ex-RSE members afraid they'll somehow be turned in?

Is there a web site where the followers of JZ/R post? Is it the FACTNET site? Also, isn't JZ/R concerned that her spies (if there are any) may start seeing "The Light" when reading EMF posts? I'd think she'd do anything to not lose a single member ($$$).

BTW watcha, I ordered the book, "Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships" by Janja Lalich. I can't wait to receive my order. It's rated 5 Stars on Amazon.com.

Thank You Watcha for your honesty in stating what you experienced & your insight as to what ex-RSE members feel even AFTER being FREE when they come back HOME. :D
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by Tree » Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:50 pm

Does RSE have "people" watching EMF? If so, are ex-RSE members afraid they'll somehow be turned in?

Is there a web site where the followers of JZ/R post? Is it the FACTNET site? Also, isn't JZ/R concerned that her spies (if there are any) may start seeing "The Light" when reading EMF posts?
yes, jz has some staff in the marketing department monitoring our posts, but not nearly as actively as before because a "new teaching" came about concerning being "frequency specific" with EMF if you come view here.
But, if you are a paid staff member, it is just part of your job :shock: so that doen'st count :wink:

the only site ramsters have to post on is http://www.mastersconnection.com/ on the bulletin board.
They are not very active. Most people in school do not concern themselves with blogs or forums, they have better things to do like finish their UG's, or do disciplines or drink wine and laugh at the "only two disgruntled ex-RSE members" :shock: :)
In all honesty, most RSE members are concerned with their finite world, and for the most part do not participate much with
like I said, blogs or forums. Only social interactions with other people at the ranch or the occasional dinner party.
They have enlightenment to attain, don't you know? so they can't be bothered with such trivial matters.

I would like to think that between last summer and the stories in the Nisqually Valley News a few weeks ago did get a few people interested in just skimming the site. You never know ......

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Unread post by Tree » Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:56 pm

and further refecting about ramsters using the internet....
I would liken them to what John McCain's views are regarding the internet-at least the baby boomer age people.

They just don't get it.
And Obama has ACTIVELY pursued the avenue of the internet for his campaign with great success.
I do think John McCain is behind the times in his endeavor.

So in that respect, I think Ramsters are definitely behind the times Internet-wise and seeing the power and capacity
OF the internet.
Myself, I think this is where the misstep is.
JZ did not count on the internet being a foiling in her continuation of her charade. It will just be a matter of time.

All those small minded ramsters can write all the letters to the editor they want in the NVN.
They will NEVER carry the weight the internet and one -on-one interactions (like Glen Cunningham was speaking about).

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:40 pm

xindy,


when most people leave a cult ... any cult ... they go through a period of time when they are at least nervous about the cult leader "getting them". most/all cult leaders imbue their followers with a sense of the leader being divine and powerful. so just like children will believe that momma has eyes behind her head, and catches them being naughty, it's sort of like that.

some, like me, were actually threatened by the all powerless cult leader-who-can't-control-his/her-emotions (ahahahaah), and while that rattled me, moreso, it angered me. but, as others commented to me, it scared the xxxx out of them. as others, i reached a point when i knew that i was safe from the BULLY. because that's exactly what it is...an impotent bully. strong, effective people have no need to cast threats about and humiliate others in from of audiences. bad karma, jzr ! LOL

xindy, i'm just laughing out loud....does rse have people watching emf ?? YES !!! absolutely. without any doubt, yes. emf has earned the dubious honor of being slammed by folks at rse. while they deny the allegations, we've heard from a NUMBER of people that earlier this year, david was accused of being in cahoots with the local building authority because at long last, the building authority was finally investigating the UNDERGROUND BUNKERS that ramsters have built for the doom and gloom that will never happen. they think they will have to go live underground to stay alive, while the rest of us suckers die. of course, it's ridiculous, and living in such paranoia is a place i don't elect to "create" (insert humor). isn't it curious that they are so unevolved and powerless after as much as 30 years of not living life while they do Disciplines all the time...and they can't stop the doom and gloom predictions ??????? hmmm.

there is a website where some of the current students (masters ?) post to. the site is HEAVILY regulated and controlled. we've heard many reports, including from people who have come to emf to post, that anything "off" is immediately deleted. so, those open minded, free thinking, open-to-discussion students prove their hypocrisy on that website's message board as it's ONLY allowed when one sustains the closed minded cult-think that is acceptable to the teachings. having said that, at least they do say that it's for followers.

oh, great ! i'm so glad you ordered that book. you'll enjoy it. very well written. janja lilich and madeleine tobias were both cult members at one time, long ago, just like joe szimhart. so, there's a lot of "a-ha" moments when reading that book as an ex-student, due to having gone through the phases in the book.

FACTNet is only for cults/cult-like groups to be listed. the owner of that site is a former scientology member, who sued them and won something like $8 million and then started factnet to help others. sounds like a good plan !

xindy, you asked if rse watches emf. yes...but what you didn't ask is do "others" watch emf ? it is monitored by some very high forces in the country. there is more going on behind the scenes, and like the turtle and the hare....there is more going on than makes it to the message board.

did you know that jz admitted to NEVER having channeled jesus christ ? she recently admitted that in court. despite the fact that she led all of us, worldwide, to believe she did channel jesus and even sold audios (i have them all) of the "jesus teachings". she's been reported by several people to the attorney general and she has lied in response, too. she's gotten away with certain lies, but it won't go on forever.

we could have a thread on "jz's lies" and THAT would be very interesting !

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:51 pm

Tree !!! Stop it ! Say it isn?t so ! Are you kidding? LOL !

She?s now teaching that if they read EMF they are going to become FS with it, as though that?s something they CAN?T CONTROL ? You mean, they don?t create the OPTION of both reading EMF ? and? sustaining their RSE beliefs ? OMG !!! That?s just like the church instilling fear via the Devil-gonna-getcha. (no offense intended?it?s my opinion)
Don?t students see that ???

Well, really, jz gives EMF a lot of power. Thank you, jz. That tells me you (jz) know we?re speaking the TRUTH here, which we are, of course, doing.
Yeah, well?staff can read emf and stay safe from it being ?catchy? just like staff can Not do all the work of the disciplines that the regular folkies do, cuz they?re exempt. They?re working !

Tree said, ?JZ did not count on the internet being a foiling in her continuation of her charade. It will just be a matter of time. ?

I agree with that. She has no idea what is going on behind the scenes, and has been. (I guess Ramtha didn?t tell her, LOL) The whole EMF thing has grown way beyond EMF. There are WAY more than ?two disgruntled ex-students?. It?s behind anything JZ and her cronies can control. The best part is that she did most of the damage by her own hand. We only help to shine a light on it. ?We? being all of us on here?it?s exponential in its effect.

In a way it?s sad that there is a list of things we can?t post about ? now. I expect a day will come when we?ll have much more to be typin? about.

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RAMTHA NEEDS SPIES???

Unread post by xindy » Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:37 pm

Hey guys,

OOP!

Forgot to mention this was done in humor, not serious. Something you can laugh at or respond.

:wink:
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:29 pm

xindy,

you sound like ramtha at a wine ceremony ! ROLF !!

be careful, she'll get jealous if she has competition. just ask audrey and joe, to name a few discarded competitors.

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Unread post by xindy » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:41 pm

Whatchamacallit wrote:xindy,

you sound like ramtha at a wine ceremony ! ROLF !!

be careful, she'll get jealous if she has competition. just ask audrey and joe, to name a few discarded competitors.
Do you think I got her shakin. :evil:

Hey anybody can imitate her, just watch her old Merv Griffin show. I learned some of her lingo from you when you went to the Tank. You said you heard "Welcome to the Gates of Hell," or something similar. Ramtha's booming voice INDEED!

Competition? The God of Creation is her competition. She scares so many people by puffing up her chest to appear manly & deepening her voice & that stupid accent which comes & goes. Wine ceremony...I hate wine maybe because I'm allergic to roses which I understand many people get a bad reaction when they drink wine. I wouldn't have been much fun at one of those Wine ceremonies which most descriptions sound like some sort of orgy from the days of Caesar.

I wonder how many people became alcoholics from these Wine ceremonies & how many have liver disease.

Watcha said
xindy, you asked if rse watches emf. yes...but what you didn't ask is do "others" watch emf ? it is monitored by some very high forces in the country. there is more going on behind the scenes, and like the turtle and the hare....there is more going on than makes it to the message board.


JZ Knight is a force of EVIL and needs to be exposed! What I can't understand is, why she hasn't been taken DOWN, especially since "others" are watching this message board. Why is it taking so long, surely there's enough evidence that she's a fraud & a sadist.

She practiced medicine without a license with the Sea-11 water (which was like drinking Draino), giving Prozac to people who may have been bipolar, subjecting children to filthy sexual talk & perhaps those children viewing (unmentionable behavior). She's a CANCER...eats away your insides slowly; putting her followers through a living hell through her tortuous exercises such as the woods, the tank people running into each other full-force while blindfolded, the disciplines, etc.

I'm positive that 99% of her RSE membership are people who want to help others. They NEED to be rescued from the toxic babble of JZ/R.
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:58 am

xindy,

sorry that's all i can say about what's going on...i'm sure you can understand why that sort of "stuff going on" isn't going to be posted on here. why it's taking so long...well...that's relative. i see it as a lot has gone on and much has been exposed. there are a lot of websites/blogs/ex-cult groups/etc that are of the mind that it's a fraud, and they're writing about it, at least. we've had people contact us with stories from around the world. some people prefer to work behind the scenes, too. but, they are doing their part to educate others about what they're getting involved in. there are lots of layers to this whole thing.

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Unread post by xindy » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:19 pm

Whatchamacallit wrote:xindy,

sorry that's all i can say about what's going on...i'm sure you can understand why that sort of "stuff going on" isn't going to be posted on here. why it's taking so long...well...that's relative. i see it as a lot has gone on and much has been exposed. there are a lot of websites/blogs/ex-cult groups/etc that are of the mind that it's a fraud, and they're writing about it, at least. we've had people contact us with stories from around the world. some people prefer to work behind the scenes, too. but, they are doing their part to educate others about what they're getting involved in. there are lots of layers to this whole thing.
So happy to hear this...I understand the confidentiality required. Just so happy "something" is in the works!

Doing Happy Dance with my 3 dogs.! LOL
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RAMTHA NEEDS SPIES???

Unread post by xindy » Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:12 pm

I see all the Moderator edits on my post & request that my post be removed in its entirety. This was a really dumb post & my WORDS set off a chain reaction on another Forum.

This post does not belong on a site dedicated to helping ex-RSE, those thinking of leaving RSE or other cults.

EMF Moderators Would you please remove MY POST? I don't want anyone to get the impression that EMF condones "REVENGE."

Thank You.
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:01 pm

Hey, Xindy, it's just my personal opinion, but you seem to be overly afraid of offending someone. So the moderators edited your post. Big deal! If they thought it needed deleting they can do so. Stop apologizing so much. Some of mine have been editied and so be it. Whoops! aren't those last three words copyrighted by someone? Ah well, let 'em sue me! :lol:

This isn't my site. It's for the victims of this scam, but I guess we are secondary victims. If we offend anyone, they are free to say so and we can just turn to our neighbor (whoops, there I go again with the copyright violations) and apologize, but speaking freely (I think) is a way toward healing, for everyone. SO stop apologizing for everything you post and let's just rave on and let the chips fall where they may.

I can tell you are a very nice person (probably nicer than I), so quit apologizing for everything you do and say, both real and imagined. That should go a long way toward your own healing. If we get too rambunctious and obnoxious, David can always tell us to take a hike!

If others disagree with my assessment, well, SO BE IT, and they can just tell us how they feel!!
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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Unread post by xindy » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:49 pm

Sad Grandfather wrote:Hey, Xindy, it's just my personal opinion, but you seem to be overly afraid of offending someone. So the moderators edited your post. Big deal! If they thought it needed deleting they can do so. Stop apologizing so much. Some of mine have been editied and so be it. Whoops! aren't those last three words copyrighted by someone? Ah well, let 'em sue me! :lol:

This isn't my site. It's for the victims of this scam, but I guess we are secondary victims. If we offend anyone, they are free to say so and we can just turn to our neighbor (whoops, there I go again with the copyright violations) and apologize, but speaking freely (I think) is a way toward healing, for everyone. SO stop apologizing for everything you post and let's just rave on and let the chips fall where they may. I can tell you are a very nice person (probably nicer than I), so quit apologizing for everything you do and say, both real and imagined. That should go a long way toward your own healing. If we get too rambunctious and obnoxious, David can always tell us to take a hike! If others disagree with my assessment, well, SO BE IT, and they can just tell us how they feel!!
Yes, I am overly sensitive & really I shouldn't have said what I did. That entire Post should have been deleted b/c talking about one's fantasies, (if violent) & joking about it, doesn't make it right. Venting is good but I chose the wrong way to go about it. If anything, AD60 & Dreamin opened my eyes as to how others viewed my Posts & I really needed to be told about it before it got way out of hand.

WORDS can be dangerous depending on their interpretation. EMF is such a wonderful tool for ex-RSE & those thinking of leaving RSE & some of them still hold allegiance to JZ/R & reading Posts about revenge & violent actions could actually turn them away from this site & I DO NOT WANT THAT TO HAPPEN as I'm sure you don't also.

I'm gonna try to be a "good girl" LOL & think before I Post. :wink: The Devil Made Me Do It! :lol:
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:10 am

xindy wrote: The Devil Made Me Do It! :lol:
Hey, maybe ramtha made you do it! :P

I agree that we should not say things that would turn off prospective escapees, so you give 'em the soft touch and I'll give 'em a dose of reality. The violence thing we probably overdid, so if I get out of hand again, the former students should feel free to call me on it.
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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Unread post by Tree » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:59 am

.....So the moderators edited your post...
honestly, I take offense to this, as this has occured to me as well here, so then I just back off posting.

I peruse at least 3 other forums and post regularly and not one of them is moderated or censored like EMF is.
So I go back to: I don't own this site and if I really wanted to post more information about RSE and
it's evil ways, I can make my own website. I just can't be bothered with people spltting hairs here sometimes.

Anyway, xindy, your sinceritly and sweetness do come out in your posts, so keep on truckin' GF :)

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:56 am

Tree,

I have posted a response to your concerns here...


The EnlightenMeFree 'EMF' Message Board :: View topic - Censorship on EMF..!

http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... =3492#3492
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Unread post by California Dreamin' » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:16 am

Tree -

My two cents:

Please know that I really value your postings here on this forum. I sincerely hope that any irritations you experience on EMF from time-to time won't result in your abandoning this forum.

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Unread post by xindy » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:41 pm

California Dreamin' wrote:A very disturbing aspect of the RSE teachings is that one must absolutely guard all of their thoughts, as thoughts are the seeds of reality.

Have you ever tried not to think of the elephant sitting in front of you in the room? It's impossible. Just as it's impossible not to have certain random thoughts. If these thoughts are "lofty," then you are creating your evolution and reality the "right" way. If you happen to have any negative thoughts, or thoughts of doubt, etc., or think badly of another person, you are setting yourself up to negatively impact the reality of yourself or of the someone you were thinking about who happens to be less "enlightened/powerful" than you.

It's really very arduous having to guard each thought and re-train your thinking process, because certainly not all thoughts arise out of conscious intention and awareness. There is lot's of guilt around worrying about your loved one's illnesses etc. because if you worry without doing a blue body healing on them, you are empowering the illness.
When I Post on EMF, I feel I have to "guard everything I'd like to say" for fear of offending someone. I sometimes feel that no matter what I Post is going to offend someone, somehow. I should probably just view this web site like so many non-posters do. After all, EMF is basically for ex- & almost ex-Ramsters & families & friends of loved ones living in Yelm or somehow still involved with RSE. I don't fit that profile.

Is this what it feels like to be in RSE? Having such fear of saying or doing the wrong thing that your mind just shuts down! :roll:
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:37 pm

xindy wrote: When I Post on EMF, I feel I have to "guard everything I'd like to say" for fear of offending someone. I sometimes feel that no matter what I Post is going to offend someone, somehow. I should probably just view this web site like so many non-posters do. After all, EMF is basically for ex- & almost ex-Ramsters & families & friends of loved ones living in Yelm or somehow still involved with RSE. I don't fit that profile.

Is this what it feels like to be in RSE? Having such fear of saying or doing the wrong thing that your mind just shuts down! :roll:
This is my take only, and I stand to be called down by those whao have "been there", but the folks on this board are no longer RSE robots. In my opinion, the recovery process would include relearning NOT to expect everyone to walk on eggshells for fear of offending. Having folks disagree with you, and even maybe hurt your feelings, is the way the real world is, and is just part of the adjustment process of returning to the real world. I won't intentionally say things to hurt someone's feelings, but also feel if someone is constantly getting hurt over what someone else says, it is their problem and not mine. I will readily apologize, for the hurt, but will not pretend to believe something I do not, because someone gets hurt over what I say. I will NOT personally attack anyone, since they have as much right to their opinion as I do to mine. I believe it's called "tolerance".

So, Xindy, don't leave just because you are afraid of hurting someone's feelings. I have read all the posts and have not seen anyone speak of you hurting their feelings, but in your desire to empathize with others, I suspect you are imagining that you are saying hurtful things, in the course of civil discussion.

I have total respect for everyone who has been under JZ's spell and had the fortitude to take back their lives. I have not been through that experience, so am happy to take my lead from those who have. If I am out of line, by all means, jump on me with both feet, but hey, I am part of the real world that I believe everyone here is making great strides to reenter, so just take me as a (maybe unpleasant) aspect of reentry into the real world.

So, Xindy, get a grip! These folks have invited us to participate on their site and have every right to ask us to leave. Until they do, I think they'd just like us to be ourselves, and paticipate fully.

If I am wrong, everyone feel free to tell me. I promise I WON'T get my feelings hurt.
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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Unread post by xindy » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:05 pm

Sad said:
So, Xindy, don't leave just because you are afraid of hurting someone's feelings. I have read all the posts and have not seen anyone speak of you hurting their feelings, but in your desire to empathize with others, I suspect you are imagining that you are saying hurtful things, in the course of civil discussion.
Dear Sad,
You ARE too kind. :D You appear to be the sunshine in a cloudy day for me. Thank You. {{{hugs}}}

Your daughter & grandchildren are living in Yelm, my sister has recovered competely from the teachings of RSE & no longer needs my assistance/support.

You belong on EMF b/c you fit the profile of Friends and Family Members. I no longer fit that profile. It's hard to be myself when I have to worry about hurting someone's feelings. I'm actually a silly kind of person with a weird sense of humor & love to watch "Family Guy." As I stated, I am overly sensitive (NOT b/c my feelings are hurt but b/c I worry more about other's feelings being hurt) but I see there are quite a few ex-Ramsters that are also sensitive. But they've been through an unbelievable experience that I haven't, so they can justify their sensitivity to certain Posts.

I just don't want to ruin all the GOOD that EMF has done for those ex-Ramsters where this site has been their lifesaver as far as recovering from the abuse they've gone through & are maybe still working through it.

I've read AD60 & Dreamin's Posts so many times I've almost memorized them. They felt such talk (which MY Post started) wasn't appropriate for EMF. I can see where they're coming from...NOW...but not before. I don't feel they were being overly sensitive--I feel they showed me what was & wasn't appropriate for EMF.

Hey Sad, I'm not going anywhere unless I'm kicked off this web site. I'm just going to be very careful as to what I Post & how I Reply. Also, since my ex-Ramster sister has recovered fully & enjoying life, which I am totally elated about, I won't be discussing her in any Posts. LOVE YOU SIS!

See You Around Gramps! Love You! :wink:
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by xindy » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:03 pm

Tree said:
Anyway, xindy, your sinceritly and sweetness do come out in your posts, so keep on truckin' GF
Thank You so much. I can't even begin to tell you how much light you've shed on me by telling me of your experiences when you were still with RSE. I still get shivers when I think of you walking your dog & the experience with you son & the Tank.

CD said:
"Please know that I really value your postings here on this forum. I sincerely hope that any irritations you experience on EMF from time-to time won't result in your abandoning this forum."

Couldn't have said it any better CD...My feelings exactly, Tree!

Much Love Coming Your Way :arrow: {{{hugs}}}
"I was CULTivated since my birth unintentionally by Parents following Catholicism."

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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:19 am

Dear Sweet Loving increasingly endearing Xindy -- fear not!!! Your sincerity of concern as well as your intelligence and in depth study and increasing understanding of JZ/Ramtha/cults shines through everything you say. As folks keep telling you - you haven't hurt anyone. I agree completely with Sad Grandfather when he says - get over apologizing. "Belonging" on EMF isn't about having been, or having someone in JZ's world - it's about an open heart that wants to reach out in love and concern to those who've been hurt or may be hurt by JZ's or any scam. There's a world of difference between being overly self conscious and worrying about what to say or not to say and simple mindfulness - You're not responsible for other people's reactions or posts.
If you're going to memorize something - in my opinion - memorize: I am an asset to EMF and all who read it. Blessings to you.

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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Tue May 26, 2009 1:28 pm

from another perspective, and as Joe always encourages - the point, for me, is not so much the labels re RSE or JZ's personality -- but the behaviors - of the 'organization', or individuals within the organization.
The word and concept of 'cult' is difficult for me - and I know others have strongly differing opinions re the use of the word cult. Seems recently on tv there have been programs regarding cults. Seems to me there are some groups which form around an individual who has a 'connection' to the Divine which the rest of us don't believe we have - and often that individual sincerely believes in this 'connection'/God talking/Visions/whatever -- the gathering of folks around them and the forming of community is out of sincere belief by all concerned. And it's called a cult. Some organizations are formed around an individual with a connection except the individual is consciously pretending to have the special connection, and consciously use manipulative techniques to keep their followers. Some of the behaviors of the leaders and followers of both the sincere and the schemed are the same. Although interesting to learn about psychopaths and sociopaths and borderline personalities and other such labels, including cult, what's more important to me is how do I recognize the behaviors which are really not healthy - however I define healthy.
One such 'behavior', 'red flag' as referred to here, is: am I speaking group rhetoric or my own thoughts - and can I tell the difference.?

I'd hate to see the posts here get lost in verbal ping pong: 'it's a cult - it's not a cult'.... In one sense of the word - i.e. in the sense that cult can represent a legitimate sincere gathering of people - RSE is not a cult. So what. The behaviors demonstrated and elicited by the leader are unhealthy, to say the least. The environment in every way is abusive. .... Call it a friggn garden club and we can tit for tat that it is or isn't -- because one of the 'behaviors'/red flags/indicators of 'unhealthy' is the manipulation for division among those gathered.
To those who have died - by their own hand, for lack of medical treatment, for any reason related to their involvement with jz/ramtha - it doesn't matter what their experience was called - dead is dead beyond the label. To those of us who still live, too many among us have been damaged mentally physically spiritually - and have damaged others in our path... ... what does it matter if I recognize/acknowledge the label cult? what matters to me is recognizing the 'weapons'/tools that did the damage.

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Looking for information on court case ...

Unread post by Caterpillar » Tue May 26, 2009 3:09 pm

Hi all

The following is copied from an old RSE website (Dec 2000).

http://web.archive.org/web/200012090721 ... out-jz.stm


1992-1993: The reopening of JZ Knight's divorce to Jeffrey Knight's case built up a great deal of media coverage and controversy surrounding Ramtha and his school. Pierce County Superior Court Judge Bruce W. Cohoe ruled out all references describing Ramtha's School of Enlightenment and/or JZ Knight in terms of "cult activity, brainwashing, and mind control." The court rejected every argument advanced by Jeff Knight. The judge did award Mr. Knight $750,000 based on the property value of JZ's organization at the time of the initial divorce. The Washington State Court of Appeals later reversed this decision. JZ Knight's attorney, Doug Kaukl, stated on July 20, 1998: "The trial court did not award Jeff any money on his various 'brainwashing' claims. All of those claims were thrown out as meritless. The award was instead based on the trial court's interpretation of the property settlement agreement between JZ and Jeff, an interpretation that was overturned on appeal."



Did the court actually make a ruling that RSE is not a cult OR was it deemed irrelevant and so no ruling or definition of cult is described in the transcript of proceedings? This is an important distinction for RSE?s case. Does anyone know, have seen the actual transcript or have references? This is the basis RSE supporters use and get very defensive about their beloved RSE. JZ/Ramtha frequently reminds the students that RSE is not a cult according to the court case. This is one of the reasons I joined RSE because it wasn?t a ?cult?.

I?ve now discovered that RSE is a destructive cult from reading about mind control and cults by cult experts. However, I would like to know if the above court ruling is another lie fabricated by Judith. Is there proof out there or did Judith just have a manipulative lawyer?

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Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Tue May 26, 2009 3:40 pm

By their very nature, and the nature of their profession, lawyers are "manipulative". The more important question might be whether the judges involved were subject to manipulation, either by coersion of bribery. The law is a strange beast, in that, once the first judge threw out everything related to RSE, the burden then falls squarely on the plaintiff to have that ruling reversed and judges are very reluctant to reverse another judges ruling.

No, I am not a lawyer. My experience is from having been screwed by lawyers, including the ones I was paying. :evil:

I'd think he might have gotten farther by filing criminal charges that made ramtha the centerpiece of the case. She falsely promised him he would be healed, and he was now dying because of those false and misleading promises. Of course her lawyers would have made the defense that Judy was not responsible for his own gullibility, but that would have made it harder to just throw out the ramtha factor.

I would presume his motivation was money rather than discrediting ramtha. Perhaps he was still a "believer" at some level and accepted Judy's word that he just wasn't "enlightened" enough to heal himself? :roll:
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Tue May 26, 2009 3:45 pm

PS: I have decided not to capitalise the "R" in ramtha, since to do so would imply that "he" is a person and that the term "ramtha" is a proper noun. Since ramtha was a figment of Judy's imagination, I consider it a thing, not a person. :lol:

To each his own! ;-)
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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Evidence of false statements made by JZ Knight in court

Unread post by Caterpillar » Tue May 26, 2009 4:37 pm

Sad grandfather, I?ve just found this article dated Sep 30, 1992 about the initial court case. This article shows that Judith is a liar as we know the truth about Jeff Knight and Ramtha?s teachings. She also hired a better manipulative lawyer.

For RSE supporters, the notion of the court ruling that RSE is not a cult may be based on FALSE statements made by JZ Knight in court.

http://www.seattlepi.com/archives/1992/9209300056.asp

Copied from the above link:

CHANNELER `SHATTERED' BY REMARKS ABOUT RAMTHA
By Joe Mooney P-I Reporter
Wednesday, September 30, 1992
Section: News, Page: B2

New Age channeler J.Z. Knight broke down and cried several times yesterday as attorneys questioned her in the fourth week of a trial to determine if her former husband's $120,000 divorce settlement should be increased.
Knight said she was shattered by a confrontation with Jeffrey Knight in late August or September 1988. She said Jeffrey told her he planned to expose her as a fake and a fraud, and that she would end up in prison.
``I don't think you know what kind of trouble you're in," she said her husband told her. ``You're going to prison. You're a fake and you're a fraud. Nobody believes you channel the Ram."
J.Z. Knight claims to channel a 35,000-year-old warrior from Atlantis named Ramtha who began appearing to her in her kitchen 20 years ago.
Since then, she and Ramtha have become world famous, attracting thousands of followers, including celebrities Linda Evans and Shirley MacLaine. (MacLaine has since disavowed the movement.)
Jeffrey Knight contends his wife used Ramtha to build a financial empire worth millions and to deny him a fair share of it. But she claims her financial empire has been in a state of collapse, if not ruin, since the early 1980s and that her personal life has been equally disastrous.
J.Z. Knight said she denied her husband's later request for $10,000 per month in spousal maintenance because of his remarks about Ramtha and fraud.
During yesterday's lunch break, Jeffrey Knight disputed his ex-wife's story, saying her tears and her testimony were faked. He agreed they discussed terms of their breakup, but said it wasn't confrontational and that it occurred months earlier, on July 30, 1988, their fifth anniversary.
Among the pressures leading to the couple's breakup, J.Z. Knight said yesterday, was the discovery in 1985 that her husband was HIV positive and that she was in danger of becoming infected. Other pressures included the collapse of their Arabian horse-breeding business and her son's battle with cancer and then with drug addiction.
J.Z. Knight also testified that Ramtha never taught people to avoid conventional medical treatment.
That contradicted Jeffrey Knight's earlier testimony that Ramtha told him not to seek medical help for his illness.
J.Z. Knight said Ramtha taught that faith could move mountains, but she pointed out that her son had extensive radiation treatment and that she currently receives medical treatment.
J.Z. Knight also described the couple's financial desperation in the mid-1980s. Adverse publicity about their horse business caused attendance to decline at Ramtha Dialogue events. Also, they discovered they owed huge tax bills for 1985 ($500,000) and 1986 ($1.6 million). They were also forced to buy back several expensive horse partnerships.
``I frankly felt we were lost," J.Z. Knight said. ``We didn't know what to do."
In the end, the Knights borrowed money from Linda Evans and other friends and got a loan on their home near Yelm.
Testimony resumes this morning in Superior Court.

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Unread post by Robair » Tue May 26, 2009 4:47 pm

Hello Everyone
Hello AD60

I will agree with you that the word Cult Has been Way over used to include lot of different group like religions, MLM, etc etc.
Should we not use the word Cult at all to protect certain groups that have been unjustly included in that category i.e. religions. I like you think that looking at the behavior is the way to determine how to properly classified a group,when we have made that determination ,How do we call that group. What would you call groups that behave like RSE
I think I am confusing my self,better stop before total melt down :lol: :lol:
My two cents
Oldone

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Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Tue May 26, 2009 8:35 pm

Well, I can see where "define cult" could get in the way. Would it be safe to just call it a SCAM, since she is making millions off the backs of her followers, or would we have trouble with "define scam"?

I would define scam as taking people's money under false pretenses. The only thing needed to prove that, would seem to be - - Are people getting what they are paying for? Has there been any documented case of someone stopping the aging process, curing a terminal illness, flying through space and time, or even creating a reality other than the actual REALITY?

From what I hear, there have been people who were injured or died during "disciplines", thousands who have recognized the whole thing as a scam, and left (without their money and a few years of their lives). It would be interesting to know if there have been suicides by followers or former followers, brought on by the realization that they have been scammed?
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

Caterpillar
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Evidence of non-enlightenment

Unread post by Caterpillar » Wed May 27, 2009 4:03 am

RSE is definitely a SCAM but it also shuts down the brain?s ability to critically think while immersed in its recycled teachings.

There is a website called Masters Connection for RSE students and friends.

http://www.mastersconnection.com/forum2 ... ?id=22&p=1


The two pages from the above link have FAILED to demonstrate RSE advertised ?remarkable? achievements. They show the deaths of students (RSE language ? passed this plane) and students needing help not unlike any other non-RSE humans. This is appalling record for a 35,000 year old ?enlightened? being who should know how to teach better!!! Where is the enlightenment??? (Of course, Ramtha is only a fictional character?)


Sad grandfather, I know of at least one student who suicided because he wanted to find out if Ramtha was real or not. Ramtha promised to meet his students at the ?Light review? ? a teaching on death, copied from various sources.

There is enough evidence on EMF that RSE is a scam (or ?cult? academically speaking) and far from enlightenment.

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Unread post by Sad Grandfather » Wed May 27, 2009 4:39 am

Why does the law not have enough proof to arrest and charge her with negligent homicide, fraud, contributing to the delinquency of minors, and a few dozen other charges?

Somewhere on this board is a copy of the letter I got from the FBI, in Tacoma, offering me sympathy, but saying there was a difference in knowing in my heart she is committing fraud, and actually being able to prove it. I have a handicap, in that I have not personally been scammed by Judy, and none of my family has died (so far) as a result of her abuse and manipulation.

At this point I would not seem to have enough to file charges, myself. Perhaps the family of the person who was inticed to commit suicide, or persons who were directly scammed and lost money, due to her false pretenses, might have grounds to file criminal charges. I don't see how they can allow her to claim religious persecution, when she is on record as saying her scam is not a religion.

Could it be she not only has a manipultive lawyer, but also owns a manipulated judge, or two?
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!

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There is still hope...

Unread post by Caterpillar » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:24 am

Sad grandfather, there is still hope. Manganiello sued JZ and won (see below). The truth does prevail sometimes.

Copied from John Crutcher's article:

http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... utcher#991


"In 1982, a psychologist named Dr. Jamei Manganiello attended a Ramtha seminar. Ramtha singled out Manganiello during a session, and told him that he had been a student and follower in a past life. Ramtha said he was glad to be reunited with him. The psychologist felt special and "euphoric."
A week later, J.Z. called Manganiello on the telephone with a proposal. How would he like to invest in an Arabian horse? Ramtha himself had created the investment for his people, and by investing in it Manganiello would obtain "financial freedom." The horse's name was Palantir, and Manganiello could buy shares at a cost of $10,000 per share. Manganiello was undecided. It was a lot of money, and he knew nothing about the horse business.
A few weeks later at a seminar in California, Manganiello was approached by somebody on J.Z.'s staff who told Manganiello that Ramtha wanted a personal audience with him. The audience was to be free of charge, a significant gesture in light of Ramtha's $500 per hour fee for "personals."
Ramtha told Manganiello that he had personally "created" the horse Palantir, and encouraged him to invest in it. Ramtha explained that the horse would earn $29,000. He repeated J.Z.'s earlier assertion that the investment would bring the psychologist "financial freedom." There were about thirty investors in the syndicate who would each own shares of the horse. Manganiello bought two shares for $20,000.
As time passed, Manganiello became concerned about his investment, but Ramtha personally assured him that it was sound, saying "I keep all my promises."
In November of 1985, Jeff and J.Z. sheepishly announced that Palantir was not making a profit. They offered, "allegedly out of the goodness of their hearts," to buy back Palantir.
What J.Z. and Jeff neglected to mention was the fact that the Washington State Securities Division had issued a Cease and Desist Order in January of 1984, while they considered possible racketeering charges against the two for possibly defrauding investors of their money. The magnanimous gesture to repay the investors their money had little to do with moral rectitude and everything to do with pressure from the state.
There were four syndicates mentioned in the Cease and Desist Order. Each involved a different horse into which multiple investors had apparently been cajoled by J.Z., Jeff, and Ramtha, in a fashion similar to that experienced by Dr. Manganiello, into investing tens of thousands of dollars.
When Manganiello realized that J.Z. and Jeff had been less than forthright in the syndicate affair, he sued. As a consequence of his lawsuit and pressure from the Washington State Securities Division, J.Z. and Jeff paid all of the investors in the four syndicates back."
The story continues ...


My husband agrees with your signature "Down with Judith Hampton Knight!". It's called Class Action!

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Re: Is RSE A Cult?

Unread post by mike king » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:36 pm

OK Guys,
Lets look at this in a different way. What if JZ suffers from B L P D? Yes she is a border line. So she has created the perfect situation for her. There will all ways be a conflict she can play the victim role but guess what she will all ways set traps for herself. The trap right now is that her other part has gained more importance or value than JZ and that will become a hugh problem for her. It might all ready be underway. Now borderlines do not read or place them selfs in the environment well and that is why they have to control in order to percieve self value. That control has led to this cult. The stage shows are scrips all ready played through her mind. She has no value with her students because they have become part of the game and will be played with relative to her rules of the current state of mind that she is playing through! There will never be a conclusion to her goals as she can never reach them so there will never be anybody from the school that will achieve. Remember that she is the observer and she will only create her state of mind! :idea:

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Re: Is RSE A Cult?

Unread post by ex » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:32 pm

thanks for pointing this so clearly out realy makes sense. since i always think about jzs exit stragegy i guess she will one day come down as ramtha and give herself the credit that she did some events as jz and reached a high level of accomplishment so that there will be question about the legitimation of her role. can someone like jz ever live without the glory ramtha get? i think part of her wants out other parts enjoy the ramtharole too much. how is her move dieing in spring 2011 play into this?

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Re: Is RSE A Cult?

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:55 pm

Welcome to EMF mike king
Thank you for your very insightful post
Just a quick comment on what ex posted..
how is her move dying in spring 2011 play into this?
This subject of concern has been at the forefront of my conversations with others.
I believe it dovetail into what mike king has just posted..
The trap right now is that her other part has gained more importance or value than JZ and that will become a huge problem for her.
I was told of a psychologist who observed some “Ramtha” video’s and asked if she thought “Ramtha” was real?
She replied no, but neither is JZ Knight! both are fractured personalities of Judith Hampton!!
I think the ongoing death talk is a desperate attempt to maximize attention getting... that could also be a precursor for a destructive RSE meltdown....
Judith’s final curtain to drag as many "JZRamtha" followers as possible to enact a “suicide script".

David
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Re: Is RSE A Cult?

Unread post by California Dreamin' » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:59 pm

I think the ongoing death talk is a desperate attempt to maximize attention getting
JZ Knight will be 74 years old in March. I imagine on some level she must be getting very weary of this charade she has created. She has created her very own Hell on Earth, and now she must dwell in that hell as long as she has breath in her lungs.

It must be awful for her to look into a mirror and have that face staring back in reflection.

Nowhere to run, JZ. Nowhere to hide.

Another Dimension60
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Re: Is RSE A Cult?

Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:38 am

a death prediction for March will bring many special events to be called - which will pay for April's WA state property and IRS taxes....
maybe i'm wrong - but it's certainly a ploy used many times just prior to tax time.....

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Re: Is RSE A Cult?

Unread post by Robair » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:34 am

Hello everyone
Here is my 2 cents
JZ is not going to kill herself she is way to chicken for that she is afraid to die, so is everyone in the school main reason to built UGS.
California Dreaming JZ will be 64 years old not 74 typo I presume

The way I see it she is starting to prepare them for her departure, and need a very gullible excuse. Faking some kind of Malady that will disable her to channel her imaginary 7 foot God from the imaginary land of Mu, is probably her best choice. She already started the ball rolling few months ago when she came out as the 7 foot Buffon and told her audience that she was going to die this year, so it has been in the work for a while she also came out later and contradicting the Buffon by telling them that HE should not have told them that and she was going to heal herself of this Malady. I see this from my very simple mind nothing very complicated she is a crook and a scam artist and think and act accordingly , I myself do not buy that she has some kind of personality disorder, the one that are putting any value on this are only helping her get away with it .I also do not buy the children abuse stuff. If the so call experts buy into those charades they can only re-enforce her own plan and help her achieve her goal and will probably be the first ones call on the stand By JZ Lawyers to support her defense if it come down to that.
So prepare to see her best acting Yet. In JZ the victim, the abuse childhood, and the personality Disorder, coming out and simply tell everyone , I haven’t be myself for the last 30 years. VOILA.
Oldone
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Re: Is RSE A Cult?

Unread post by Vanilla » Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:18 pm

Tree- I remember feeling it was sacrilegious to play card games like rummy, with your smiley deck. That is so funny. Going to the back of the arena to play a card game with your friend!

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Re: Is RSE A Cult?

Unread post by freemysoul » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:57 pm

Vanilla,
That's probably the best use those cards ever got, you actually having fun with them and using them as they were intended to be used. I remember feeling the same way about all my 'rse' crap. I looked at the white book as if it were a bible for years.
I am so grateful to be free of the fear and the control that I felt for far too long. Thanks Vanilla

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