Could we talk about education?

What experiences led to your opinion that RSE is, or isn't, a cult ? Address issues; no flaming tolerated.
ignatious
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Could we talk about education?

Unread post by ignatious » Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:35 am

I don't mean common sense, quickness of mind, etc., I'm referring to formal academic achievement from accredited universities where a student studies history, philosophy, mathematics, religion, etc. My only experience with Ramtha followers was a family with very limited education. If not Ramtha, some other shaman would have hooked them. They had no basis in historical data with which to compare what they heard at the Ranch. When Ramtha punctuated every sentence with the word "Indeed" and a silly bastardization of Old English, they took such play acting as proof of her authenticity.

Can anyone guess what proportion of Ramtha devotees have completed university degrees and what role, if any, that plays in drumming up numbers for the flock?

Another Dimension60
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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:03 am

There are literally rocket scientists, doctors(MDs and DVMs and chiropractors and acupuncturists), PhDs in a diversity of fields, people with MAs, teachers, nurses, social workers, therapists, etc etc etc ---- The ignorance seems more to be yours - re how people sincere in their desire to be servers to the world, get hooked into scams.

Whatchamacallit
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:33 am

ignatious said, "When Ramtha punctuated every sentence with the word "Indeed" and a silly bastardization of Old English, they took such play acting as proof of her authenticity."

what basis in fact do you have to make this statement ? i will assume it is your opinion, which of course you have a right to. i would agree with AD60, though, that there are lots of degreed students that have attended rse. i will also say that i HAVE heard current students challenge "ramtha's model of science", during audiences, while talking to other students. it was not the norm, but it did occur. i was one of them and another man that i crossed paths with a number of times also did the same, although he was far more vocal about it.

*if* you can trust melton's stats, the number of students with assorted levels of education, has been documented. do those stats hold true during any given calendar year based on the student population at those times ? i don't know.

i do know there are plenty of folks who got involved short/long term in rse with degrees. i'm one of them and my highest level of education (of multiple degrees) is at the doctoral level, which i graduated from having done very well all throughout college and university education, thank you. being "educated" isn't mutually exclusive from searching for spirituality in one's life. nor does a university education preclude one from being duped by a cult-fraud. not everything taught in rse is bullxxxx. a lot of it is taken from eastern mysticism, which we all know has a very long history. it's the TWIST that gets spun from the fabric of antiquity, that almost imperceptibly at first, pulls one into the snare more and more firmly. getting out is not just a matter of academically looking at "the facts" and "knowing better"; it's far more insidious than that. one gets ensnared in the trap of a cult emotionally, mentally, spiritually...far more so than intellectually. that's why one of the first stealth moves the cult makes is to STOP one's critical thinking processes as best they can. they then move rapidly to capture you on the other levels that i mentioned. it is when you allow that intellectual, critical thinking side (DOUBT) to come forward again, that you leave the cult.

i also know that there are some phenomenon that we cannot (yet) fully explain, because as i've posted before, i have had "psychic" abilities since i was a very young girl. i still do. therefore, i wanted to know "more" and i was what i call, open minded because i'm humble enough to know that there is a lot that i don't know. i'm willing to listen. i'm not willing to believe "just anything", however.

i am not alone. there are plenty of "me" in rse, past, present and perish the thought; future.

Wakeup-Call
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Unread post by Wakeup-Call » Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:25 am

Hi Ignatious,

My experience is that the group as a whole is pretty well educated. I have a B.A. in Accounting from a Big Ten university and a masters in Telecommunications Management. Was the chief of staff to the Chief Information Officer of one of the largest insurance companies in the US.

Certainly there is a portion of the group that is not educated and I would say, lean toward mental illness even.

J. Gordon Melton's book, Finding Enlightenment from the late 90's had some stats along this line. The number of well-educated people I met when I first got involved in RSE was one of the illusions that made the school seem credible.

I would say that this kind of formal education does not provide anyone with the necessary skills to recognize an actress or someone using the tricks of a magician as well as neuro-linguistic programming. Combine that with being disappointed with what religion and the American consumer society has to offer and the message and information is appealing.

Also, keep in mind that JZ apparently wasn't making up stuff out of her head - she was referencing scientific literature and hard to find metaphysical literature. So she mixed in a lot of truth with her own Ramtha spin.

Whatcha - what's the name of the book again that you recommend for understanding the cult experience? It has information about how intelligent, well-meaning people get hooked into a cult.

Believe me, it is hard not to judge myself for falling for this crap, but I did get some good things out of the experience - but at a very expensive price.

joe sz
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nobel prize winner

Unread post by joe sz » Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:45 am

Years ago, 1986 I think, I gave a lecture about cults to a skeptics group in Albuquerque. The same question came up as to "intelligence" and educational level of "typical" cult members from a scientist. He would not believe me when I used the example of Brian Josephson who became an avid follower of Maharishi M Yogi and TM. I sent him documtation fro TM and Cult Mania by Persinger. [an excellent book, btw:
http://www.amazon.com/Tm-Cult-Mania-Mic ... 822&sr=8-1


Brian Josephson co-won the nobel prize for physics in 1973.
"for his theoretical predictions of the properties of a supercurrent through a tunnel barrier, in particular those phenomena which are generally known as the Josephson effects"
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/phys ... ates/1973/

"An important turning point in Josephson's life occurred in 1971, when he heard a radio announcement for a lecture on transcendental meditation (TM). He attended the lecture, became an adherent of TM, and has since become a student also of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. As part of his daily routine (which may include walking, ice skating, photography, and astronomical studies), Josephson also meditates for about two hours."
http://www.bookrags.com/biography/brian ... phson-wop/

There is nothing "typical" about cult members because there is no such thing as a typical cult. It is like asking if there is a typical animal. In relation to human beings, some critters are quite attractive and benign like butterflies, while others are like great white sharks eyeing you up from below as you swim in the ocean. Several high school students interviewed me recently and all asked the same question about "typical" as if cult members are somehow dumber than most. I told them that I have exited persons from cults with only flight attendants as members, only male medical students, only black male athletes, only insurance salesmen, only martial arts instructors, only well-educated white women, and so on.
The average new age sect or cult stemming from Theosophy or RSE attracts more women than men and usually men with a "sensitive" side to them, but that does not account for everyone in such New Age groups. A significant number of recruits, in my estimation, have anxiety and other insecurites as "seekers" with perhaps an inordinate need for control over their fates, like "strangers in a strange land," a.k.a. neo-gnostics.

Having a high or low IQ has little to do with cult affiliation. Any smart person can be dumbed down when it comes to religious ideas controlled by a cult, and Josephson is one example. As Kathleen Taylor argues in her book, 'Brainwashing: The science of thought control':
"Taylor makes an important distinction that she feels is lost on many skeptics that have a knee-jerk negative reaction to religious practice and faith. She takes issue with those who believe that "Science functions like a well-regulated brain, religion like a psychotic one." (141) To her, research demonstrates that "[m]uch religious practice is not concerned with abstractions, but with real life, testing out new approaches to social problems, experimenting with novel solutions, learning and applying ideas from around the world" (141). In other words, the more sophisticated faiths act reasonably within core ideas that are often ethereal."
from my review: http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/brainwashing.htm

Whatchamacallit
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:07 am

wakeup,

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ignatious
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Unread post by ignatious » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:15 am

Sorry if I pushed some buttons; wasn't my intent.

As I said, my only experience with Ramtha devotees is one family. "The Smiths" sold everything they owned and move to Yelm. Mother Smith, a child of semi literate immigrants, didn't make it into high school. Father Smith was his family's first high school graduate. Daughter Smith was encouraged to develop charm instead of her bright mind -- in part, I suspect, in the belief that Ramtha somehow endorses manipulation. Over the years the Smiths invested in many of the scams that came up at the school, contributing to their losing everything that decades of the father's manual labor had earned.

Hard to dismiss education as one of the causative factors. You'll never read any of the Smiths here on this board poignantly describing their journey out of RSE. They haven't the resources -- for the trip or the writeup. For them, RSE isn't a stopover in a journey; it's a destination. It was a destination after their first exposure. They've had zero training in critical thinking. They read only what Ramtha tells them to read, and if they don't understand it, well then that proves how smart Ramtha is (!) I think that if Ramtha told them to drink the Kool-Aid, they'd ask for a double dose. Are the teachers in Yelm allowed to criticize RSE or does Knight's machine force them to stuff RSE filtered pap down even the tiniest and youngest of throats?

There are homeless physicists and genius street sweepers but that does not mean that all physicists are homeless, or all street sweepers brilliant. Fact is that most physicists are not homeless, nor, presumably, are a majority of street sweepers contemplating quantum physics as they trundle along in their broom trucks. A small proportion of People's Temple members had advanced degrees; a majority did not. A degree doesn't guarantee a person won't drink the Kool-Aid any more than it keeps physicians and librarians from becoming alcoholics or drug addicts, but until I read about mass suicides of John Hopkins interns or Wharton MBA's, I'm going to keep on believing that education usually plays a role in helping people recognize when they're being conned.

I realize I was asking for anecdotal opinion, but since you folks were smart enough to get out, I trust your judgment about the bulb brightness of those who remain. If the Smiths make up 10%, and the brain surgeons make up 10%, where would you place the median for the remaining 80%?




Thanks, Wakeup for referral to Melton book.




The average new age sect or cult stemming from Theosophy or RSE attracts more women than men and usually men with a "sensitive" side to them, but that does not account for everyone in such New Age groups. A significant number of recruits, in my estimation, have anxiety and other insecurites as "seekers" with perhaps an inordinate need for control over their fates

joe sz - have you seen/read anything to suggest that abuse survivors (sexual/physical) are particularly ripe for plucking?

joe sz
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Unread post by joe sz » Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:43 am

IGNATIOUS
no buttons pushed--just that your comment was a common one and others might benefit from an answer. Obviously, people like Dr Cialdini who studies "Influence" and wrote a book by that name is less likely to get conned, just as a skilled stage magician/hypnotist [Derren Brown, eg] will easily see through JZ's stage act and not readily join a group like RSE.

Your question "have you seen/read anything to suggest that abuse survivors (sexual/physical) are particularly ripe for plucking?" may be misdirected.
....some cult leaders fit the abuse victim profile you stated---we all know one 8) ----due to a need to either get revenge or more likely to feel in control.

But on average I have not seen that abuse victims fall prey to cult leaders any more than curious spiritual dabblers do who never experienced abuse.
Wellspring Retreat may have studies or stats available from their treament population. If I find anything I'll get back to you.

ignatious
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Unread post by ignatious » Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:24 pm

[i}Whatchamacallit said,
ignatious said, "When Ramtha punctuated every sentence with the word "Indeed" and a silly bastardization of Old English, they took such play acting as proof of her authenticity."
what basis in fact do you have to make this statement ? i will assume it is your opinion, which of course you have a right to.[/i]

Er, um, on what basis do you question that characterization? If linguistics are among your areas of scholarship please inform me as to the appropriate speech patterns of a 35,000 yr old Lemurian warrior. If your beef is with my reference to Old English, versus Medieval, substitute whatever period you like, then please help me understand why it was believable to you that Ramtha arrived in 1970s America sounding like he just blew in from Bombay?

I'm 10-15 yrs your senior. While you were accumulating degrees, I was tuning my schtick detector. So my first and only exposure to JZ brought nothing but laughter. It was in videos she hawked to members around 1987. Perhaps she refined her performance in subsequent years and became more persuasive, but to me in 1987, her videos were embarrassing, like a sophomore doing a bad job with Chaucer. I felt pity for the person who brought them to me.

As it happened, sprinkling one's conversation with the word "indeed," usually to lend believability to statements of questionable truthfulness, had been the rage about 10 years earlier -- during a time when my career required I be surrounded by trendies. One vendor, "Jen," used this particular affectation heavily when trying to sell various kettles of fish. That was in 1978-9, just about the time JZ was having her first visitations from Ramtha. A coincidence, I'm sure. So when indeeds started popping out of those videos in 1987, it was like taking a trip back in time. By the 2nd tape I knew exactly when JZ was going to drop her next indeed.
Maybe I'm psychic too.

Tree
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Unread post by Tree » Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:12 pm

I'm 10-15 yrs your senior. While you were accumulating degrees, I was tuning my schtick detector. So my first and only exposure to JZ brought nothing but laughter

I think Joe has responded with the best unbiased information here.

I can also vouch for the degree route , but I also happen to have the personality trait of pretty much believing people at face value.
No amount of education can over ride that nifty trait.

I personally know of several people who have multiple degrees as well who are "old timers" in the school.
They can be seen in the front row of the latest RSE videos.
My heart goes out to them as well meaning intentioned people that they were when they first got in RSE.
My eyes see no prejudice as to their education level.

As a matter of fact, one very dear friend has multiple degrees and has written several strategic weapons and training documents (SWAT)for
one of the largest military installations in this country prior to their involvement with RSE.
If ANYONE had critical thinking abilities before their involvement ,
this person did.
I have no explanation for this sly, backhanded duping of people.

I just didn't appreciate the view of : well, I am more educated and I saw through the smoke.

All of us were well intentioned in making this world a truly better place, one stemming from true compassion and empathy
for our fellow humans on this planetary ride.
I don't think that is anything to fault.
It is sadly preyed upon by the likes of Jim Jones, JZ Knight, and the rest of the Malignant Pied Pipers of Our Time.

California Dreamin'
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Speaking of "Indeed"

Unread post by California Dreamin' » Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:12 pm

I clearly remember manyl times when "Ramtha" would arrive on the stage and open a monologue with the word "INDEED," to which (most) everyone would yell and shout back in reply "INDEED" as if that was a meaningful statement. Then the arena would explode in a huge applause.

I've often wondered at myself about getting caught up in that nonsense. No one even knew what was meant by "indeed" yet we all had our personal spin on that word and cheered.

I believe that any word "Ramtha" shouted to us would be parroted back and followed by a loud cheer. UNBELIEVABLE :roll: :roll:

Whatchamacallit
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:08 pm

California,

Parroting back, "Indeed" to the dude, was along the same line of raising one's hand in agreement, without thinking. It became a ritual for its own sake.

I just wrote a long response to ignatious. Then, my computer froze up...had to disconnect, and reconnect the router. Back in bizniss.

Going to post it now. Have a cup of coffee ready ? LOL !!!

My kids are so excited. We're putting the tree up. How ironic that they're excited about putting up the tree with ornaments...so...they can spend the next month or so, sneaking them back off the tree when mom isn't looking!!! Too much.

:D

Whatchamacallit
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A very long post, git the coffee cup

Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:12 pm

Sorry this post is so long?but?you asked and I?m endeavoring to answer.

Whatchamacallit said,
ignatious said, "When Ramtha punctuated every sentence with the word "Indeed" and a silly bastardization of Old English, they took such play acting as proof of her authenticity."
what basis in fact do you have to make this statement ? i will assume it is your opinion, which of course you have a right to.[/i]

Er, um, on what basis do you question that characterization?

I was after your ATTITUDE and your INTENT in questioning, the is the basis upon which I questioned your characterization. Your question came along, whether you intentionally designed it that way or not, as arrogant and insulting to those of us who didn?t clearly see, right up front, how ?silly? the whole JZ presenting as Ramtha channeling performance was.

As Tree said, ?I just didn't appreciate the view of : well, I am more educated and I saw through the smoke.? You need to understand that we?ve had people come on this forum and insult ex-students in a myriad of ways, basically citing their stupidity at being suckered into a cult. Yes. I openly admit that I have a short fuse for that, especially on this forum, which is intended for ex-students, family and friends SUPPORT. If I sense it, I?m going to question it.

However, if you choose to believe for your entire life that folks who got suckered into RSE are as silly as Ramtha?s poor linguistics, I DO respect your right to your belief. You just won?t be welcome to use it as a flaming arrow toward us ex-sillies on EMF .

One reason that I commonly recommend the book, Take Back Your Life by Lalich & Tobias, is because they do cite statistics about the ?average? cult member. I think it?s the most down to earth, straightforward books dealing with cults that I?ve read. Not that I?ve read all there is to read about it, either. Those two women (the authors) also have advanced degrees, and they, too, were lured into cults. Actually, I would tend to think those stats would be more trustworthy than Melton?s, since JZ paid Melton. Joe Szimhart is no dummy and he has talked about his tenure in CUT. At least long enough to figure it all out. But, he was open to the message, and that is dangerous. Being open minded definitely has its pitfalls.

So what do we do? Shut off our faith, or willingess to hold faith for a spiritual message ? Stop wondering about the real meaning and purpose of life ? Children ask where babies come from. Adults ask where the universe came from. If you have any regard for the Bible, it talks about ?channeling?. Check out Samuel 10:6. (Make no mistake; I?m making a point, not preaching! I won?t set foot in a church) Those with faith in organized religions are not there because Jesus, Buddha, etc, appeared to them and proved their credentials. They have faith. Ramtha followers have faith, too. What?s left? Atheism? I choose to have faith that there is a God. I have faith I?ll wake up tomorrow morning, too.

I know you can easily look up the general population statistic that show what percentage of the population has college degrees at the various levels. While this is not a study, only based on my observations, I would say that the students in RSE reflect the general population norm fairly closely. Certainly, most of them do not have advanced degrees, and many of them have no college at all. I will compliment those with non-degrees, too, and say that thanks to RSE pushing science, they are some of the most well read people when it comes to scientific literature. Many of the students who are degree free, would probably breeze through a college science curriculum fairly easily, with their self-taught background. Now, you might think that would stop them from being hooked into RSE. No, no. Keep reading.

Here is the difference. I think others will support this observation, too. In RSE, it appears that JZ positions, grooms if you will, those with advanced degrees or degrees that are of use to her, as stepping stones to advance her cause. She will just as easily discard them when she?s done with them as we?ve seen for many years. But science is a mainstay of the meal fed to students. Many of them voraciously read all manner of science resources. They also accept on FAITH, the claims Ramtha makes that are beyond-the-edge of what our lowly human scientists have ?proven?. First of all, we know that some ?facts? we?ve accepted as reality in our world have later been proven false.

I have an advanced placement Biochemistry book I?m working with right now, and in the very first pages of the book, one of the captions in the margin talks about how the new science model is quantum physics. Times, they ARE a?changin?. That, however, does not validate JZR?s wild claims, either. It only means she?s well read. Good for her.

That she uses her current position to continue to dupe people, may she fall. That JZR tells people to simply do the disciplines and ANY disease will be healed, and students are dying left and right from all manner of diseases that are NOT cured, is NOT alright. That she allows Ramtha (rolling eyes) to come out, time after time, perform wine ceremonies and then use that drunken idiocy to go into hours upon hours of vulgar sexual talks, threats, physical assaults, swearing that would shame even a boot camp Army Sargeant, all in front of CHILDREN, is not okay. For whatever ?good? is in RSE, the ?bad? outweighs it. I don?t suggest ANYONE go there. I want to make that clear, lest my post be misinterpreted. I think the place should be shut down and she belongs in jail.

Ignatious said, ?If linguistics are among your areas of scholarship please inform me as to the appropriate speech patterns of a 35,000 yr old Lemurian warrior. If your beef is with my reference to Old English, versus Medieval, substitute whatever period you like, then please help me understand why it was believable to you that Ramtha arrived in 1970s America sounding like he just blew in from Bombay? ?

I understand that for YOU, Ramtha dropping in and sounding like he just blew in from Bombay the one and only red flag you needed to say it?s all a bunch of trash. What gets people into a place like RSE AND what gets them out, is two different things. Why? Because really, truly, we are not talking about IQ, education levels, or even a poopoo detector that?s finely tuned. Places like RSE hook you slowly. JZ was very aware of her critics from the start. The ?accent? of ?Ramtha? was addressed right from the very beginning, as was the use of the words like ?indeed?, ?as it were, indeed?, etc. They were all explained in terms of ethereal energy uses. Now, that may not mean much to you, and that?s okay. But, you asked. I?m trying to answer for your sake, and anyone else that?s reading.

I did have doubt. I was also somewhat non-compliant and I did question. So did others. The teachings frequently addressed the issue of DOUBT, because most of us had it. In what areas we had it, differed. I never lost my doubt, but I didn?t have enough of it to outweigh the reasons for staying. I DID have metaphysical experiences there. However, I had them before and after RSE. My focus was on gaining information, no different than I did in college. RSE does put out some very interesting books, and JZ is sure to remain on top of what?s out there for leading edge science literature. However, she lets ?Ramtha? put a twist on what science does know, and uses it to entice students from science into pseudoscience. I know people who find the leading edge of science hard to believe; seemingly surreal.

A university professor at Uconn studies time travel. Ron Mallett, with a Ph.D. in physics, I believe. I haven?t read his book, though I?ve read articles he?s written so I know where he?s coming from. Is he nuts ? So, RSE says people can time travel, too.

The military released (a few years ago), a lengthy study on the research they did on teleportation. So, JZ twisted it to tell us we could teleport, and taught disciplines toward that end. Actually, Audrey?s downfall was connected to that event.

In the response letter from JZ?s attorney (Kaukl) to the Washington State Attorney General, JZ refused accountability for such wild claims. She claimed that RSE is ONLY designed for people to learn to be happier with their lives. To me that is reason to run like hell outta there. Even though I was already out, what about all of the current students who ignore that bold admission ? They do read EMF and word gets around in the ?hood.

Further, recently, in a court of law, JZ was asked if it was true that she never channeled Jesus Christ. Keep in mind that for well over twenty years, she has sold audio teachings of herself channeling Jesus. It has been referenced throughout the years in the teachings, and has been written about. Her response was that in fact, she never channeled Jesus. Again, some students remain. WHY ? Some of them have advanced degrees. It?s just not about that. The hook is not intellectual; it?s spiritual, based on faith. In RSE, one attempts to prove their faith as they are told ?all these things that I do, so can you do.? And so it goes. 1 year, or 30 years, chasing a dangling carrot that remains ever elusive.

JZ claims RSE is a religion, though during audiences, and even quoted in print and heard on audio, it has been clearly stated many, many times, ?This is NOT a religion.?

It?s a destructive cult. It dupes people from ALL walks of life. To equate education level to vulnerability of cult membership would be (imo), to confound the study. It?s sad, it?s a bit embarrassing?and perhaps?to those who want to think they are invincible and can?t ever be that vulnerable, it might be terribly frightening to think that their education will preclude them from ever being silly.

I hope that helps. It?s just my opinion and experience, nothing statistically significant. But, anecdotal evidence does have its place, and empirical evidence isn?t without flaws. That?s why, imo, it?s every bit as much of an error to become ?committed? to, with a religious fervor, to an ?academic? viewpoint of cults and religions, as it is to give blind faith to a religion. Both are flawed ?belief systems?.

Wakeup-Call
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Unread post by Wakeup-Call » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:57 pm

Ignatius, I wanted to comment on the Wharton MBAs and John Hopkins reference... I agree we won't see the general population committing a mass suicide. On the other hand, I've known my fair share of Wharton MBAs (I interned with Joseph Jett who was on the front page of the Wall St Journal at the center of scandal many years ago). Movies like "The Corporation" and "Enron: the Smartest Guys in the Room" are revealing about the short-term view for profits and control as well as the caste system of haves & have-nots. One draw of RSE was the appeal of the possibility of a utopian society.

As to medicine, western medicine is very good at diagnosis but leans toward treatment as influenced by corporations - we are big into cutting and chemicals. Years from now, I'm sure history will consider this approach rather nutty.

Many rituals of organized religion are also pretty nutty. Having children gaze upon a nearly naked man being tortured via crucifixion each week is sick, in my opinion. And then ask them eat his body and drink his blood.

Wanting to find a better option for living as part of a community with nobel goals and to live with compassion and caring is one of the initial goals people have with hooking up with RSE. Then the manipulation gets going and its hard to break out of it - especially, like "The Smiths" when your financial means have been exhausted.

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G2G
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With all due respect to Ignatious -

Unread post by G2G » Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:22 pm

Just a note, since the topic of education has reared its head via this avenue. I am deeply touched by what is occurring on the other side of the world, particularly since we're off to India to be with family within the next month. The India I know is a warm and loving country. Never have I seen so many with so little display the inner "joy" visible in the people's faces.

Out of respect for the beautiful India I know, "Bombay" is a British term and is not used by Indians. The true name of the city is "Mumbai." The same can be said for what the west labels as "Madras." The Indian name is "Chennai," and I could go on with many others. Let's show respect for those killed, injured, and in shock, during the ongoing tragedy, particularly if one is arguing education and linguistics. Can we not, at least, utilize the correct terms?

Along that line, many of us have heard "ramtha" state "he/she" was the "Ram" of the Hindu people. (I thought it odd jzrk didn't utilize the term "Bharat" since it is the ancient Sanskrit and Hindi word for "India.") Jzrk also "ripped off" his "daughteren's" name in "his" lifetime. "Ramayana," in reality, is a great Indian epic, (The Ramayana) and Ram was the incarnation of God in human form on earth, with Deepavali (Diwali) - a recent holiday, (also named "The Festival of Lights"), celebrating the "Great Ram" or "good" triumphing over evil." Jzrk has "lifted" a heavy dose of "Hinduism," twisted it, and injected it into her teachings. (God is everywhere and formless). I was shocked to witness a huge painting of "Shiva" in the arena. I was equally surprised no one I spoke with knew the Hindu story of Shiva, nor were they aware of who this deity was. They didn't even know what the Nataraja was. (Shiva is doing the dance of destruction and renewal within a circle of fire).

However, I won't dwell on jzrk's errors with speech, oh my heck! :wink:

Now, getting back to RSE and the scope of students' educaton. We have advanced degrees within my family, including an MD. While at RSE, I've met several MD's, chiropractors, writers, an individual from NASA, social workers, teachers, etc. We "exers" are well aware of the large number of RSE members, current and "ex," with college and advanced degrees.

I would not ordinarily "advise" ANYONE to attend RSE; however, in Ingnatious' case, perhaps it would be an eye-opener to experience firsthand how sinister the process is - even with an advanced degree. Just "keep an open mind" - "just for this amount of time." It's difficult to understand unless you have experienced it firsthand, escaped, and can look back utilizing that all important skill known as critical thinking. It euals survival, imo.
I'd enjoy watching "the big guy" questioned by respected buddhist and hindu minds.

(I'd also LOVE to see Derren Brown do a number on jzrk!)
8) 8) 8)

I bow my head to the lovely Indian people, from whom I've learned so much in the way of tolerance, patience, and mere smiplicity.

~Aum mani padme hum~
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972

Whatchamacallit
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teleportation (going off topic)

Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:16 am

Article addressing teleportation: http://www.groupsrv.com/science/post-663871.html

One viewpoint: ?we are still very far away from being able to entangle and
teleport human beings?

Another viewpoint: ?the Study leads plausibility to claims that teleportation
technologies have been discovered in a number of locations around the
planet.?

Amidst name calling and whistleblowing claims, this article (post) addresses the topic of teleportation, some political implications, and a weblink reference to United States Air Force Teleportation Physics Study. If you want to print it out, be prepared to buy a new ink cartridge; it?s very long.
My point is, this is an example of a reference used by JZRambles, to teach students about the HUMAN being?s capacity to teleport their BODY. Of course, JZ didn?t demonstrate it or prove it could be done. Just expected students to pay her for the teaching, and then do it for themselves. She takes pieces of reality and twists them as her own New Age, unique and special for the radical few, teachings.
I have to say, that this teleporting one?s own physical body is one of the more outrageous claims that have been made. Although I would also say that it?s not as harmful as telling people they can be healed of all manner of disease, and then watching them refuse allopathic or naturopathic medical treatment only to die from their terminal illness. That, in my opinion, is murder.

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Kaworu
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Unread post by Kaworu » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:36 pm

Teleporation is not possible from a conventional view of physics, because in order to teleport larger molecules you have to break the connections between them and this requires a lot of energy. I've read the book "China's Super Psychics" by Paul Dong where many children supposedly demonstrated the teleportation of objects, but I don't know how trustworthy these reports are. There has to be a gentle force that dissolves matter and reassembles it somewhere else like a natural psychic force but you won't acquire it at RSE, that's for sure.

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aussiegirl
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Unread post by aussiegirl » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:17 am

Ignatius, I am a partner of an RSE member and I too have felt and still feel to a certain extent the way you do about RSE and people who believe in Ramtha. I have tried to understand how intelligent people can get sucked into a cult like this, part of me does but there is another part of me that stills says "what the #*?&?" how could anyone take JZ seriously, the whole act is ludicrous, the Ramtha character sound ridiculous and slips in an out of the accent on the videos I have seen, can't everyone hear that.

I see what you see, an actor playing a part, it is so clear to me that it is very very difficult if not impossible for me to understand why this is not obvious to anyone with half a brain. Hopefully I have been part of this forum long enough that noone will take offense as they all know me by now, but for those of us who have never believed in the Ramtha charade and particularly if you are like me and have no religion and no interest in spiritual pursuits, it is tough to come to terms with the fact that intelligent, educated, street smart people can be sucked into something like this. But spend a little time on this forum and you will see that is exactly what can happen, as unbelievable as that is to you and I.

Tread a little slowly here at first, you can go harder once everyone knows you and trusts you, remember there are a lot of people posting here that aren't even sure they can trust their own judgement.

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Unread post by ignatious » Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:02 am

'Guess I want to believe that education can ward off Ramtha the way garlic wards off vampires. My selfish focus is less on those who've already been bitten than with the innocents who've had targets drawn on their necks with the caption, "Ramtha bite here," drawn by family members who are supposed to protect them.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:57 am

ignatious,

this afternoon, as hubbers and i were driving a distance to take the kids to the zoo, i was chatting with him about your post commenting on education vs. being impervious to cult tactics. understand ahead of time that my hubbers was raised in roman catholic schools, and to this day his mother doesn't miss a sunday service...devout catholics, they are. or, he WAS. he laughingly considers himself a "recovering catholic". so, his response to me when i was relaying the posts of late, was, "there are educated people that are dedicated to all manner of religions, not just rse."

point well taken.

i thought about it for a minute and considered the folks who have doctorate degrees in theology. talk about dedicating one's life to something. yet, i've read books and websites that address the disagreements between theologians about the bible, and/or the interpretation of the bible.

aussie made a good point, too. as fresh as she is (LOL), it is true that when we get to know someone on the forum, it's easier to understand their personality, intent and where they're coming from when they post.

we've had some rather rough characters come on board from time to time and not want to play nice at all; threats, you name it. so, we might get a bit testy from time to time.

as for EDUCATION well placed...that is in part why emf exists. we all need to educate our youth, who learn more about sex education in school than they do spotting coercive persuasion techniques. or neurolinguistic programming techniques (NLP). a ph.d. in physics...reminds me of a man in rse who has passed away, and was a dedicated student. it even took him years to see through the baloney. so sad.

the irony is that most people don't think about cults. it's one of those things that unless someone is affected in their own backyard, the awareness about it is slim to none. shame on our society for that bad. we owe it to ourselves to be self-taught about cult dynamics, and then to spread the good word; run like hell from any inkling of it.

a challenge with that is the presumption of safety that most of us have. in our arrogance we all would assume we couldn't be hooked into a cult, if asked. when it approaches us, cloaked as a wolf in sheep's clothing, we're unaware. slowly, silently, the heat gets turned up on those frogs in the water. it's scary and it should be. what's worse is if you try to tell the frogs they're being cooked, THEY WON'T BELIEVE YOU.

how does one enact preventative measures to those who have no interest ? it's like telling a teenage girl to pay attention to birth control if she's sexually active; she's unlikely to listen because OTHER people get "caught", you see ? try telling a wild teen who has a driver's license to drive carefully so as to avoid an accident, that they need to take you seriously. accidents happen to OTHER people, not them.

we all know how that logic plays out.

we can ALL do our best to educate others about cult dynamics, given the adversity that we will meet, trying.

:wink:

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