Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" has been moved to "Off Topic"

Wonderful on the outside Treacherous on the inside....! Cults have millions of members around the world who also thought they were immune.
WofthesunEofthemoon
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Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" has been moved to "Off Topic"

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:34 am

My thoughts with regard to the proposal. I am not sure why Joe started the Catholic Church Cult thread, as it rather painted a target on his own chest, but, in every other respect, my thoughts on the matter are: "If it ain't broke, why fix it?"

I stand by that.

W.E

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Re: PROPOSED LIMITATIONS re: Breadth of Argument

Unread post by Robair » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:39 am

Hello Everyone
David and I have been talking about the Catholic tread for some time now, and David is working on a reply, his surgery was very intense and he still in a recuperation Mode. As you can see thing have been moved around and the CC tread locked for now.
Whenever someone propose something that would alter EMF it is always look at, talk about amongst us at EMF and decision made. So suggestions are only that! suggestions.
What I want to remind everyone on here is that EMF is first and foremost a place for ex-Ramters, Families and friend to have a SAFE PLACE to start their Recoveries. We make sure that when we talk about this Rapist Of mind and soul that we are accurate in our accusations that JZ is a Fraud and Ramtha do not exist, that she is a Master plagiarizer and the so call teaching is a Money scam.
But we cannot or do we have the time or the resources to check things like quantum Mechanic physic, or any other tools she is using to attract customers to make sure of there accuracies, we just can't all of this stuff if you will can be up for discussion in the proper tread and beside as far as I am concern science and scientists are not really sure what they are talking about to start with, so I do talk all of it with a grain of salt. Yes I am Old Fashion.
Here is what make my day. It is when someone send us an email telling us that EMF have been a God send if you will in their recoveries process from RSE and are grateful for it. EMF helping is what matter to me. So before you start to analyzed me I wanted to make sure that you know my Position, it has not change since the get go. We will always take suggestions in consideration, and if it does help the goal of EMF we will use them no change there.
David will be responding in his own way, until then things will stay the way they are.
Thank you everyone
Robair
I Value Things Not For What They Worth But For What They Represent

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Re: PROPOSED LIMITATIONS re: Breadth of Argument

Unread post by Kensho » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:12 pm

RE: Locking and moving the CC Cult thread:

As a former moderator this is uncomfortable to voice, but it seems that EMF is heading into uncharted waters and it seems that a storm brewing on the horizon as well. I'm not quite at the point of abandoning ship but I've got my eyes on the life rafts while holding onto hope for steadiness in crew and calm seas once again.

I suppose that if the EMF guidelines are followed, moving the thread is valid; but then again, other threads that have gone off topic as well as those that have discussed religion haven't been moved or locked. Even when some members have repeatedly posted bible quotes, they were given warnings to cease and/or the individual posts were moderated.
In fact, I can't think of a thread that has been locked and it leaves me to wonder why it was done in this case.

What stands out as the main issue, rather than the reasons given by the 'moderators' is David's dissatisfaction with Joe's responses; especially in the last few posts. By first locking the thread and now moving it, the whole thing comes across as David having a personal vendetta with Joe and/or intolerance for anything to do with the CC.

Had the thread been re-titled or moved for going off topic at the beginning, that would have been different, but to take this action with such a long thread at this point raises some questions as to the motivation of the 'moderators'.

In consideration of these points, do I support the actions that have been taken with the CC Cult thread? No.

With love, Kensho
"Don't let any person bring you so low as to hate them."
Booker T. Washington

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Re: PROPOSED LIMITATIONS re: Breadth of Argument

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:44 pm

Thank you, dear Kensho. You cannot know how much I am with you on this!! I am not too sure what is going on here, but I feel that no good can come of it. I, also, feel that a personal attack has been made against Joe, and that it is being suggested that he is no longer required on emf. I really hope that I have misinterpreted.

I also don't think that anything needs to be changed with regard to this site, bearing in mind the stringent changes which were made, a year ago.

I, too, am feeling that I am on the verge of jumping ship, which makes me very sad. I have voyaged through many differences of opinion with the 'mods', so far and fair enough. But, my sinking heart tells me that these recent events may be a step too far.

Of course, I don't agree with everything that Joe says with regard to the RC Church, and I maintain my right to say so. However, I have an enormous faith in Joe, himself, and any attack on him seems to me to be an attack on one of the greatest assets that emf has.

W.E

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Re: PROPOSED LIMITATIONS re: Breadth of Argument

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:56 pm

Additionally, do I think that what I have seen in the CC Cult thread shows a personal vendetta of David's against Joe? Yes, I do!!

And I find it to be unfounded and totally unacceptable.

W.E

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Re: PROPOSED LIMITATIONS re: Breadth of Argument

Unread post by Lost in Space » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:33 pm

I am reluctant to say anything, however, I feel I have to.
I think if someone who is not a long term member or a moderator is reading this, or has noticed that the thread has been moved, they will hop around until they find the contested topic thread, werever it has been moved, and it will get, as a consequence, more attention than is warranted in the eyes of many readers on EMF who have little or no interest in the Catholic Church. I was skipping the whole thread until it became conflictual.
Also, while I don't like it when supporters of particular religions post things which are obvious plugs (as opposed to simple comentary or observation), particularly when it sounds as though they believe they are now on the only "right" or acceptable path, IMO if too many topics are taboo, or off limits, or scrutinised for religious content, this will damage EMF's effectiveness as it will become a closed rather than open discusion board and more and more people will likely leave, and new people coming here will not be as inclined to read or post.

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'off topic' page

Unread post by David McCarthy » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:22 am

Thank you for your posts everyone.... :idea:
Kensho:but to take this action with such a long thread at this point raises some questions as to the motivation of the 'moderators'.
Absolutely, I will post on my point of view and motivations :shock: ASAP.
In fact, I can't think of a thread that has been locked and it leaves me to wonder why it was done in this case.
We have locked posts on EMF for various reasons, it is rare on EMF but it does happen, nothing sinister going on here.
the whole thing comes across as David having a personal vendetta with Joe and/or intolerance for anything to do with the CC.

Yikes..Kensho... please check in on the moderator forum where my motivations have been clearly outlined before posting such extreme negative accusations against me :sad:
I am willing to look very deeply into why we moved Joe's post to our off topic page..No rushing in here or jumping overboard.
Joe's post 'Catholic Church Cult' is still freely available for those that wish to read it, and is easily found via a re-direction to our off topic page from where Joe originally posted it here:
(EMF) forum - Cults, Cult Leaders/Channelers Other Than RSE/JZ Knight
viewforum.php?f=30
Lets try and stay on course and 'on topic' :roll:
OK where's my chocolate... :D
David
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'off topic' page

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:27 am

Have a bar from me, David, but be careful that you don't choke on it.

You have, once again, spliced the thread, so that all objections to Virginia's proposals are appearing here, rather than in their proper place, under the heading of her proposed changes. (Which would leave us, it has to be said, with virtually nothing which can be discussed of any value at all.)

I don't wish to interrupt your healing time, or make that more difficult for you. But - hands off Joe!! He has done more for you and EMF than anyone else who joined you in the LARSE days. So, he's a member of the RC Church. So what? That is his private business which does not impinge, for an instant, on the depths and breadth of his knowledge with regard to religions, 'cults' and recovery from destructive cults. In fact, for all we know, perhaps it adds to his wisdom. That's not for me to even ponder on, as I am no defender of the Catholic faith. But Joe has more than proved himself. In knowledge, intelligence, understanding, empathy, compassion and stature.

He simply is who is, David, and you should feel grateful, from the depths of your being, for him - not attacking him.

W.E.

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'off topic' page

Unread post by David McCarthy » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:06 am

Have a bar from me, David, but be careful that you don't choke on it.

Ouch, no thanks I think I will pass on that WofthesunEofthemoon, :sad:
You have, once again, spliced the thread, so that all objections to Virginia's proposals are appearing here,
Yes... I spliced the thread topic off Virginia's thread. (This is what moderators do)
If you have comments to Virginia's proposals you are free to post on that subject here...:View topic - PROPOSED LIMITATIONS re: Breadth of Argument
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1754 :idea:

However.. this thread is about why Joe's thread was moved to our EMF Off Topic page, Yes, No?
But - hands off Joe!! He has done more for you and EMF than anyone else who joined you in the LARSE days.
Just not so WofthesunEofthemoon, Joe's contribution to EMF has been wonderful, but I understand why you would assume such a thing.
Please WofthesunEofthemoon I understand you 'feel' passionately about defending Joe but can you keep from personally attacking me at least until I have presented my defense?
then you can perhaps better judge my standpoint and actions.
Try to be patient and let this thread and everyone explore all the issues at hand without the constant need for anyone to defend themselves other than using the tools of reason, compassion and critical thinking :idea: .
I am sure you do not fully understand all the issues at hand.
We will see...

David
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'off topic' page

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:13 am

OK, I'm listening.

W.E

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'off topic' page

Unread post by Virginia » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:11 am

First, the posts that got moved were a cut and paste from EE.
I am not all that familiar with the rules on EMF.
I know Joe's post started a controversy on many levels and for many reasons. My partner considers himself to be a Christian and he believes that JZ is off base on a lot of her white trash characterizations of the church, and only to show JZ's ignorance has he ever used that one credit shy of a masters in Theology. He DOES NOT think it is appropriate to discuss his beliefs on EE or EMF or to defend the Christian church or anyone else's. In fact NO ONE would have ever even known he is a Christian had it not been for one of our members, who is a personal friend of mine "outing" him when she felt dismissed on a metaphysical philosophy she had.
Right away the -what do you know you're a Christian- stuff started. The reason JZ scored so many points with the church-bashing is because once you become a "new-ager" you have usually already been dissatisfied by The Church or A church a some organized religion and she capitalizes on that. She knows who her customer is. I personally deplore religion for if I believe that there was a Jesus, and even believed he was perhaps a God, or a teacher or even just a great guy then I could still only imagine how much his teachings must have been distorted, used, twisted for personal and political gain. Every Christian I have ever known concedes this fact if they are honest.
I think Joe has conceded this fact. However the problem in my opinion is this opens a flood gate to all who want to start talking about their beliefs of which no two are the same. Every time we come down on it on EE we are "censors" and "Nazi's" and "no better than JZ". Wow, really?
We are trying to give people a chance to catch their breath from a massive fraud and we are also trying to be so honest and caring that we don't start pitching the next cult or proselytizing any religion because we believe there would be a huge conflict of interest there. I know how great Joe has been and if he was just another contributing member than yes there is some latitude.
However I watched the L.A.R.S.E. tapes and watched as Greg Simmons took him to task with one sentence, "doesn't The Church preach there is a hell?" YES IT DOES and it is fear mongering.
Of course everyone here and on EE are free to practice whatever they want. The main objective here is to expose JZ and offer support for people waking up to her fraud. The only way I can see another cult or religion being brought up in depth is to debunk it. I don't know if everyone would be as forgiving of Joe if he was going on and on about Mafu or Seth.
Slippery slope, slippery slope. Also I think the initial thread was misleading. It implied there was going to be some debunking of the Church going on and instead it was an advertisement. As a moderator on EE I am getting used to being accused of vendettas, or censorship, etc..but can't there ever be a little understanding of the difficulty of the moderator's job? We don't always know how to best protect these sites. You open the door just a crack and it gets out of control. If you all support Joe in this representation of the church then you MUST allow discussions of Scientology and other cults etc.. and we must allow everyone to go on and on defending them.
Even if the Church is not a cult it is incredibly controversial, especially with this audience. Joe may be a great friend and ally, I am not attacking him in any way personally, however I sure wouldn't take him into court with me against JZ Knight. I would destroy his credibility in three questions on the stand. If David feels a bit blind-sighted I wouldn't raise that to the level of a "vendetta." I think that it is incredibly brave of him to route out hypocrisy WHEREVER it lies even if it is in response to a good friend's beliefs.
That impartiality should be respected and not attacked. In a nutshell Joe started this thread. It perhaps should have been stopped from the beginning but we can't predict where these things will go. Sometimes they end up being countered and put to rest, and sadly, sometimes feelings get hurt, people get misunderstood, and everyone of course blames the moderators.
It is a no win situation at times. Allowing, versus protecting ex cult members from their next potential organiztion/cult.
I have still not been able to strike the right balance on EE. I am watching this and learning. Can't wait to see how it all ends up but I certainly hope it is not from this great new community all turning on each other.
We all agree on the only thing that is important: JZ Kinght is a fraud.
Many people are getting hurt and the only thing slowing her down is US..collectively.
If we lose that we have nothing.

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'off topic' page

Unread post by joe sz » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:04 am

Also I think the initial thread was misleading. It implied there was going to be some debunking of the Church going on and instead it was an advertisement
V, if you or anyone actually think that this is the case, you may be reading into my comments and not merely reading. I brought up the RCC as perhaps the biggest target available to Westerners to expose how we discuss any cult, new religion, large group training, or therapy movement.

As for standing up in court against JZ/RSE and being able to define that "nrm" as a dangerous cult, good luck. I am not sure what bullets you have in your legal gun,--- I have been in court many times and deposed twice but major cult lawyers. Courts can be fickle depending on the judge, but rule of law and evidence according to the rules is what counts in the court. Even the most regarded experts can be compromised by an opposing expert. If your gun is so well loaded, why has it not worked to take JZ down thus far? Most people that left RSE feeling deceived, hurt or defrauded want to take the cult down to stop the madness and prevent further harm.

This is a challenge again from me: Who among you has written a clearly conceived book about this cult?
Right. After all these 30 years, not one good book exposing RSE has appeared from an ex-member.
I am not sure what that means--maybe too many have been damaged too much---but I can find rafts of books exposing and condemning the RCC, and I have read quite a few.

I recently had a long discussion with another tv producer that wants to do a series on cults..so I mentioned RSE among many possibilities. The buzz out there in media land is that RSE "has been done" [20/20, eg] therefore not so interesting. Also, RSE is one of those cults that is so paranoid it has the Scientology/Landmark approach to critics---sue the 'bastards' even if we do not win. Our legal system allows for legal intimidation more than any other nation.

Yet, some of you want to believe that your opinions and facts about a world religion like the CC suddenly make it almost "illegal" in your minds to be to a Catholic...get real, is all I am saying.

Back in 1982 I helped Greg Mull, an ex-CUT who was being sued by CUT, to present a lecture in Montana. he was an architect for the cult and a personal aide to the leader for 6 years, sacrificed everything he had for the group until one day in 1980 he found hard evidence that the leader was lying on many levels. He was a mess for over a year, even suicidal after he got kicked out for confronting the leader, then sued for money [an alleged loan] the group said he owed it. So when he was asked to speak in front of an audience in Montana where the cult was then centered, he needed facts as well as history to give context over and above "his personal experience."

i was able to give him the history of the I AM cult just one day before he flew up there and also impressed upon him to start out saying, "CUT has a right to exist." It gave him the credibility he needed so he would not come off half-cocked as an irate ex-member that wanted the entire cult blown off the map. No person in a neutral position will listen easily to an angry barking dog--they look dangerous no matter what they are barking about.
Mull countersued CUT, won eventually in 1986 but died of MS shortly thereafter. CUT appealed but lost in 1989, so Mull's daughter and lawyer split the $1.6 million awarded. That process took Mull 9 years incl the 3 years after he died..that is what it might take to go to court over RSE.
If I were you, I would look into the Mull vs Prophet trial:
http://articles.latimes.com/1986-02-26/ ... lt-members

My position is that if an ex-member cannot think or respond rationally about world religions, that is an indication of a need for more recovery. It is not an advertisement.

I may not have done a good job of this, but my intent was to expand the discussion about the RCC as an example of rational discourse, not to "sell" the CC or advertise it. If that is all you got out of the thread, think again. Or at least ask questions to clarify.

For my part, I will wait patiently for David to find time and energy to clarify his points.

I am also willing to drop this thread altogether if the moderators want to end it.

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'off topic' page

Unread post by David McCarthy » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:14 pm

For my part, I will wait patiently for David to find time and energy to clarify his points
Thank you for your patience Joe, everyone...
I will be posting to clarify my actions on this topic thread ASAP.

David
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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'off topic' page

Unread post by Robair » Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:14 pm

Hello Everyone.
First of all I am very disappointed by some of the comments saying that they are ready to jump the EMF ship, but then again not really surprised the first defense one have in confrontation is to run away, but also knowing that there is probably no base commitment to the common cause of exposed JZK, taking the attitude I will do it as long as it feel good if it start to ruffle my feathers I am flying away.

When this tread started a couple of week ago or so David was not in shape to jump in for the initial discussion, so I decided that the exchanges between Kensho and Joe was more educational than controversial and did not see the need to really do anything about it. I did post at one point asking some direct questions wanted to know Joe’s thought process that he used to come to the conclusion to go from a Cult to what I also see as one the CC. That was my was to try to bring some thought process into the discussion, after all Joe is a very public figure in the Cult community and having a set of believed that contradict is opposition to RSE does put him in a very interesting position, as far as I am concern it is very difficult to separate the two when one want to be Central in his evaluation or opposition. The exchanges did at one point turned into a preaching kind of position. What was fascinating to me was to see two ext Cult members that after leaving their respective cult ( Kensho RSE and Joe CUT, Kensho went back to Buddhist and Joe choosing CC for his salvation, and I am still fascinating by it, So let keep that in mind when posting on this fascinating subject.

Please don’t post if you are treating to leave or put down EMF, David and I have kept this site open not for our own egos or the need to control anyone, our dedication on exposing JZK is our number one goal, and also please keep in mind that this site is very well monitored by many therefore very important in our argument to keep a sense of togetherness. We all have been true a lot.

I will let David respond in his own way, knowing very well that it will bring interesting thinking.

Robair
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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'off topic' page

Unread post by Virginia » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:41 pm

Joe, I understand what you think your intent has been and I have always understood your dedication. The reason I believe no book has been written about RSE is there are only a few thousand followers and who the hell cares out there. There are millions of Catholics who might be interested in a book about the CC.
RSE is very small potatoes in the world of cults and religious organizations. It is huge to US, but not out in the world. Yes I concede Joe that if we lucked out and got a Catholic judge than you would have much credibility with them. I guess it would all depend on the circumstances but I still don't see how you could be the one to argue fear mongering and corruption being a member of the CC. I have people arguing this with my partner as we speak (off line of course). He is in your shoes with the "I am not proselytizing I am educating" type of stance. Maybe it is because I need more recovery but it does strike a knee-jerk reaction in me to say "I may have been an idiot to get involved with RSE but you aren't going to be the one to tell me that".
Now I know my partner and I know he isn't saying that but when I hear what he writes it always comes at me the same way. Maybe I am just defensive because I am so embarrassed that I fell for the b.s. at RSE but hell if religion had been remotely appealing to me and had it been remotely logical to me I would have gone that direction.
There is only one God for the entire universe (which they don't even mention the universe) and that one God is male (perhaps its all metaphors of course depending upon which Christian you speak with) and he loves you but will send you to hell if he wants to and he only showed up 2,000 years ago in the Middle East and that was it, that was the one and all his teachings written by men are pure and from the mouth of God, except the book of Mormon, they are a big lying cult. Yeah, too stupid for me, sorry. So before the religious people weigh in on cults they need to stop condescendingly telling US that we didn't use logic.
I actually realize that this is total emotional reaction and probably a giant misunderstanding of your intent but that is where many of us are right now.
I personally have a reason to sue JZ. I have chosen to use my resources (time) working to help others. Yes I would love to see her go but I am more interested in helping people. She isn't worth my time to drag through court or any more of my money, unless of course she comes after me again. Then the gloves are off.

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'off topic' page

Unread post by joe sz » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:54 am

Virginia,
THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS :-)
do not be hard on your self. these matters of "belief" are long term issues that become more and more subtle the longer one immerses oneself in them.

My hunch so far is that David, yourself, Robair and others find it difficult that a "cult expert" and a skeptic can find something of value in the RCC. I had a long discussion with a friend, a scientist, who was a member of the NM Skeptics org for "Science and Reason". I helped initiate that group in NM in 1986 or so and gave their first lecture in Albuquerque. By far, most skeptics involved with Committee for Skeptical Inquiry [CSI used to be CSICOP] are atheists or agnostics and male, so I am an anomaly of sorts. That scientist could not grasp how or why I could be a Catholic...I had to laugh because i could reel off every thought he was having and I am not psychic...

I explained it to him this way: I see human beings as not only homo sapiens but also homo religioso and homo aestheticus. It is the latter view I use to approach all religion, as an aesthetic enterprise much as I approach art [my avocation since the late 60s]. iow, we continue to filter this mysterious universe through much more than science can tell us. Our aesthetic responses are a major force: how we sing, dance, draw, write, imagine, tell stories, create theater, and so on. What would the Greek nation and psych be without Homer? Without Aeschylus or Sophocles? Without Mt Olympus? My take on cults is not purely about skepticism, ethics, or political behavior. Religions to me are like works of art...some are better contrived and executed than others, many are just crude attempts that lose value after one generation. Now this aesthetic has nothing to do with the behavior of leaders and the politics or crimes committed by members. Those are separate issues for me. Some criminal cults like the old Cosa Nostra are less constricted than say a small Bible church run by an authoritarian preacher that does not break laws.

Prof Swami Agehananda Bharati tipped me off to this aesthetic pov in his autobiography The Ochre Robe: He chose the Hindu-order for its aesthetic appeal when he was age 14 and that stuck as he matured in the Goswami tradition. he knew damn well that the Hindu gods are a form of fiction/myth but they also represent certain principles that are very real. So when he would acknowledge Ganesh, eg, that elephant also meant a deeper principle in a sacred domain. he was a great teacher, acknowledged in many universities, ending his career in Syracuse yet as a monk wearing an ochre robe. If you cannot appreciate that level of "religious" behavior somewhere in the RCC, then you miss my reason for participation. I doubt the pope would want me to articulate this as a central CC doctrine...but hey, that is what I do.


Hinduism is rampant with abuses and utter superstitions and Bharati acknowledged that "most" of the swamis he met in India were out and out frauds and often abusive to devotees in terms of their behavior. The RCC has its share of superstitious Catholics and oddball or abusive priests as well, but that has nothing to do with the refined or elegant forms of religion that many other priests and Catholics follow. I find this to be true of any world religion: there are elegant approaches. What I do NOT find in a group like RSE is even the possibility for elegance because of the insular control of a pathological leader. Robert Lifton noted that the hallmark of cult behavior is "constriction" on the psych if not on all aspects of life, especially intellectual... it is a matter of degree....some cults are worse than others and with large religions this behavior is all over the map, but it is not constricted all over the map, not nearly as much as in cults like Scientology or RSE.

My role as an exit counselor is as educator and that means to "draw out" or expand a point of view, to relieve constriction. Once that happens, a client's brain begins using unused cognitive pathways and it gets "freed up" so to speak, sometimes right in front of the family's eyes that hired me. I have been told more than once that this appears to be some kind of "magical" transformation compared to what they have been dealing with for years in someone in a cult. With others, this change or release from constriction can be more subtle
Me being catholic has nothing as such to do with this. I am just as interested in constriction among Catholics as I am among cult members. It is not the cult that I am concerned about.
Yes I concede Joe that if we lucked out and got a Catholic judge than you would have much credibility with them.
Virginia, I have no idea what you mean here. Are you implying that we Catholics form some kind of a iron clad club??--give me a break. This is constricted RSE conditioning to think in stereotypes about the CC or the government or the medical industry or any established form of power. Get out of that JZ head game, please, for your own sake.

I could easily get a super-Catholic judge who was a member of Opus Dei, eg, and if he knew my role and position about OD, I could be in trouble as a witness.

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'off topic' page

Unread post by Lost in Space » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:05 pm

I am totally fine with Joe being Catholic, even though I am not, and usually I don't see any problem with his scholarly, somewhat impartial discussions on the topic. I just don't read them if I think they don't fit with the discussion thread in question. Because several members of EMF, most of whom used to belong to RSE, have suggested that it is just as much a cult as RSE I can't fault Joe for trying to draw a distinction between a cult and a religion, even though that distinction is somewhat fuzzy, in my opinion. This thread, though, is properly posted under "Cults other than RSE" because of that suggestion, and I'm not sure why moving it somewhere else would have any effect.

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Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" EMF what coarse to chart?

Unread post by David McCarthy » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:36 am

Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" EMF what course to chart?

Dear Joe and to all our EMF members,
Often I relate to EMF as a ship, we have a purpose, crew and passengers.
Every now and again we have stormy seas to sail and navigate.
Some storms are best to avoid while others are best to tackle head on.
When considering what course to chart we have a moderator team and a private EMF forum where all options are placed on the table for the best course of action can be decided .
This has been done.
There is no need to go into the complexities we have shared on our mod forum but please appreciate that much time and soul searching has been done by our moderator/admin team Robair, Freemysoul and myself.
We also had Kensho and Virginia contributing to this very challenging moderator debate.
My heartfelt thanks to you all for helping EMF navigate through these stormy waters, we are not totally out of the storm but blue sky's are visible ahead...
It has now been decided to move Joe's thread to our General Chit Chat & Social Forum with a moderator comment included
It is fruitless and destructive to engage a (Point/Counterpoint) debate regarding religion... it is a trap! and it is for very good reason to keep clear of this on EMF.
We have guidelines and moderators (some would call it censorship and agenda) this is correct. EMF could not exist without this structure of censorship in place and adhered to.
But explaining why a certain action/censorship is necessary is worth exploring to a point to find balance and trust within our EMF community.

Joe's complete thread (Catholic Church cult) is deemed off topic to our forum page Cults, Cult Leaders/Channelers Other Than RSE/JZ Knight .
It will now be moved from our Off topic page to our General Chit Chat & Social Forum and opened for further debate with a moderator comment included.
Joe's thread can be found here:
(EMF) Online Forum • View topic - catholic church cult
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1709&p=13479#p13479

Thank you Joe and everyone for your patience and contribution to EMF.
Try to stay on track and please... those of you in the wings don't be fearful of posting,
your views are important to us.
Play nicely everyone... :shock:

David / EMF moderators.
** Rules For Posting ** and how to post
EMF is generally not concerned about theological issues but instead is more concerned about the psychological, physical, social and economic consequences of RSE involvement.
Further, religious proselytizing of any kind, solicitations & advertisements will be deleted without notice.
(EMF) Online Forum • View topic - EMF POSTING GUIDELINES: Please Read
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3
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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'General Chit Chat

Unread post by Kensho » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:36 pm

ARGH! Why did I assume that this...

QUOTE: "Joe's complete thread (Catholic Church cult) is deemed off topic to our forum page Cults, Cult Leaders/Channelers Other Than RSE/JZ Knight"

...would be the moderator comment, and not suspect that something like this...

QUOTE: "-Moderator Comment-
Given Joe’s standpoint as a devout Catholic it is understandable his reluctance to personally explore cults and abuse within the RCC on EMF."


...would be?

Assumption and trust. Simple as that.

Let it be known that the moderator comment was added AFTER giving support to move the thread to the 'General Chit Chat & Social Forum' as a solution to this issue.

QUOTE: "Having now said my piece, David, I do support what you propose as being a good solution to the current situation and thank you for putting it forward."

Proposal as it appeared in the moderator's forum:
QUOTE: "Joe's complete thread (Catholic Church cult) is deemed off topic to our forum page Cults, Cult Leaders/Channelers Other Than RSE/JZ Knight .
It will now be moved from our Off topic page to our General Chit Chat & Social Forum and opened for further debate with a moderator comment included."


From the above post by David:
QUOTE: "But explaining why a certain action/censorship is necessary is worth exploring to a point to find balance and trust within our EMF community."


...and yet you immediately betray that trust by puttting in such an assumptive and judgmental 'moderator' comment David, when in fact you know that such assumptions and judgments were not universally shared or supported during discussions. By doing so, it is impied that they were and I object to that.

QUOTE: "Play nicely everyone"

Yeah, right.

My closing remarks with respect to this issue from the moderator's forum discussion:

QUOTE:
"I believe that many assumptions were being made throughout this situation and that some of those are based on personal experiences as well as on commonly held perceptions and acceptance of stereotype. While I strongly disagree with such assumptions, the only way I have found workable so far, is to accept them and those who hold them, as the way things are.
All people have their own perceptions and things are not always as they seem to be; as we have found out. Thus I agree with you in the need to have posting guidelines on EMF but those should be upheld for their own sake and should not be used to support a particular member's perception, or be used to increase their advantage when a debate is running; moderator, administrator or no.
That is what seems to have happened in this situation...but then again that is only my perception, and like I said, things are not always as they seem.

Are there any hard feelings? No.

Have I been hurt by this particular storm? No.

Was I offended at any point? No; but that does not mean that I won't make my perceptions and feelings known. If that offended or hurt others please know that was never the intention; and I am sorry if that has occurred.

Was I serious about abandoning ship? Yes.
If/when the moderator team and their guidelines are given over to dictatorship-style moderation, then the EMF ship is doomed. At the time, it seemed as though that was occurring, and unfortunately that was not only my own perception. You should know that while discussions were taking place in the thread and in the moderator's forum, there were also discussions taking place elsewhere...and much effort was put into maintaining a sense of calm; and being patient as well as understanding.

Having now said my piece, David, I do support what you propose as being a good solution to the current situation and thank you for putting it forward."



To David:
Please consider any association that I have with the 'moderator team' to be terminated immediately. I want no further association with it or to be perceived as having one; seeing as you have chosen to act independently of it by including such a moderator comment to what you proposed after acceptance was obtained by the moderators and those who participated in the discussion.
It is a shame that you chose to do that after so much time and effort were put into discussions in the spirit of fairness over this issue by you and everyone else.
I do sincerely thank all those who participated in those discussions with sincerity.

As stated in my closing remarks, what transpired throughout this difficult situation did not hurt me or generate hard feelings; mainly because comments and exchanges in debate are not taken personally.
Yet accepting that this betrayal of trust is the way things are, does hurt.
It is personal and has been taken as such.

Even so, I wish you well.

With love, Kensho
"Don't let any person bring you so low as to hate them."
Booker T. Washington

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'General Chit Chat

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:55 pm

Hi, All,

About a year ago, under this same Board Heading, a thread was put up entitled "The Ship of EMF". It was in response to an earlier storm which had blown up on the site.

People had dug into entrenched positions and, to mix a metaphor, fur was flying.

Kensho wrote a beautiful peace-making piece, likening EMF to a passenger ship. At the time I found myself unable to agree with her point of view, although I did agree with "delavie", who posted in reply to her that EMF cannot be a galley-ship where those on board are forced to conform to the arbitrary commands of the "masters", as that would cut off the possibility for free-thinking and discussion.

There are obviously requirements for posting rules to enable the safety of vulnerable people, but, as members, we are not galley-slaves to be forced into compliance at the whim, or personal agenda/s, of those running the ship.

I would love to play nice, David, but these are my current thoughts on the matter.

W.E

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'General Chit Chat

Unread post by Robair » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:51 pm

Hello Everyone
The last 7 or 8 days have been for many on here a journey of total emotions and for a few very very dividing on a personal level. I have mentioned more than once in our Mod forum discussion that for me all this has become Noise only for the simple reason that my limited basic understanding is not as much as rules but basic honesty.
What I would like to talk about is EMF it purpose and what it has accomplished the Last 5 years,(you know that cult experts give a life expectancy of Web site like this of about 3 years before everyone lose their interest and abandon Ship ) So in a way EMF is now into uncharted territory. My jointed date show 1/6/2008- that the day EMF went blue, I started on EMF as a Poster the Last week of June 2007 right after retirement while in Yelm getting our properties ready for sale, we had decided instead of moving to Yelm to continue our school Monique would travel from here Vegas and me will keep going with requirement events only for now, so no more need for a place in Yelm. Since we were not current our so called friends in the School kept pretty much what was going on in RSE hidden from us claiming impeccability, but Monique a wine lover since I married her 45 years ago was very happy with that part of it and felt a deep connection with the teaching because of it, myself do not drink and never did, so no connection there for me, but Monique is Happy I am Happy basic simple and true.
Ok Robair get back on topic will you.
The past 5 years EMF have seen many people coming and going, as posters, Moderators, advisor and some pretty crazy one between all of them. Many of them have contributed to his success and decided that it was time for them to go on. EMF has help hundreds of people start their recoveries from this Brainwashing money making Machine, this is accomplished by a magical process that still amazed me every time it happen, it when someone come on here and ask for help, there come many of you to the rescue with advises, stories, love, and everything you have to give, every time that is happening David and I just sit back and let everyone do their things, it is amazing to see. My reward for me is when someone write us to let us know that EMF has made a big difference helping in their recoveries, That what keep us/me going. We keep EMF as safe as possible the best way we can, we are very far to be perfect and probably make more mistake then non, we have learned a lot the last 5 years and still much more to learn. David and I have not other intention but to help as much as we can, we do dedicate lot of our personal time, asset, thinking trying to find balance, after all we are just two regular Carpenters doing the best they can under very unique circumstances . It is very hurtful to us when some of you who I called passing ships in the night come on here with no dedication no goal what so ever, no passion, and start to call us names regardless of the consequences that can fall from it hurting EMF in the Process, just for the sake of argument or the need to important.

Here is a perfect example, this is what I call Vicious Vicious hit and run . David and I are doing the best we can we have, we do not deserve this at all.
Kensho: If/when the moderator team and their guidelines are given over to dictatorship-style moderation, then the EMF ship is doomed. At the time, it seemed as though that was occurring, and unfortunately that was not only my own perception
Here are some facts in the last 5 years we have banned 4 people to post 2 of them has threatening to go hurt David in the middle of the night, one even went to spread garbage all over his driveway, we have not removed one post, we have not deleted one opinions , but we have argue and work with everyone, we are always available , anyone can contact us any time, we are very open to discussing and willing to go much father to help,

But you know what guys those vicious persons are not going to discourage me/us, we have no other agenda but to help, again we are not perfect or claimed to be EMF is helping why would one will want to hurt it why ?
Thank you everyone
I will go puke now
Robair
I Value Things Not For What They Worth But For What They Represent

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'General Chit Chat

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:41 pm

Cher Robair, The trouble is, mon vieux, that what Kensho says below, in your quote, resonates and speaks truth.


Quote;
Kensho: If/when the moderator team and their guidelines are given over to dictatorship-style moderation, then the EMF ship is doomed. At the time, it seemed as though that was occurring, and unfortunately that was not only my own perception" Unquote

We all appreciate that you are a man of simplicity who values truth. However, do you imagine, for one moment, that your version of truth can ever be greater than hers?

W.E

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'General Chit Chat

Unread post by David McCarthy » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:43 pm

Dear Kensho,

I am shocked to read your post, The moderators comment was just that. - The Moderators Comment - You are not a moderator.
and such an attack was unfounded, An EMF dictatorship? I suggest you look into your own heart and mind.
Again please understand You are not an EMF moderator, you were invited into our group with Virginia to help bring balance to a very difficult debate.
You understood the vote was to go against you so you bailed out..We bent even more so a compromise could be reached and this was accomplished.
Yet.. you chooses once again to throw oil on the fire on our forum and in that action feed the RSE poison that we endeavor so hard and committed to stop.
You have opened the wound once again and we will do our best to understand, heal and move forward.
Thank you for all your heartfelt and helpful post over the years... you have helped many on EMF.
I wish you peace and love in all your future endeavors with 'Life After RSE and EMF...

Please anyone wishing to post on this subject try to keep to the issues and not resort to hostile and insulting flaming.
They will be removed without notice.

David
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'General Chit Chat

Unread post by Robair » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:52 pm

Hello everyone
Please WofthesunEofthemoon..you of all people.
Can you be honest and re post what you posted about David sinus surgery,about a week ago and deleted right away, so that everyone on here see how vicious you can get also.
Robair
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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'General Chit Chat

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:06 pm

Hi, Robair,

Thank you for your reply, and I can, unfortunately, remember every word of my nastiness, (for which I earned a Moderator's Warning, so all may be clear) which you are quite right to bring to my attention.

I stated words to the effect that if David was not able to reconsider his position with regard to Joe, then he would have more to worry about than his sinuses - it would be his sorry arse!!

Does that fulfil your requirements? Although I am sure that David did not need me to repeat it.

:-D

W.E

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'General Chit Chat

Unread post by David McCarthy » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:31 pm

Dear WofthesunEofthemoon,

I will let your comment stand this time as an example of what I and our EMF moderators have to put up with.
Perhaps if you had actually stepped foot in RSE you could have understood the devastation this cult has wreaked upon innocent lives,
and at the very least show a greater compassion and understanding not only for 'my sorry arse' but to all those that have suffered and are seeking healing from RSE through EMF.

Yes..it is understood you vehemently disagree with the moderators decision to move Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" to our 'General Chit Chat pages.
Has it occurred to you there may be others that fully support that action? would you call them names too?
Again its very sad to see you posting such divisiveness on EMF..please stop.

Consider this your second moderator warning.
any further flaming may result in your being blocked from posting on EMF.

David

Forum Flaming (Internet) - Wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'General Chit Chat

Unread post by WofthesunEofthemoon » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:06 am

Hi, David,

Now you know that I would never have repeated my 'moderator warned' remarks if Robair had not invited me to do so. As far as I was concerned, I had deleted them and was listening, waiting to hear from you.

I do have compassion for anyone who has been a member of RSE. Why would I not, being a person who was (albeit many years ago), a 'victim' of just such an abusive cult? However, I posted after Joe under the 'General Chit Chat' heading to say something about this, but both his, and my post, disappeared. They were both respectful of all EMF rules and conditions.

And, of course, I have every bit of compassion for your sinus problem. You know me, David. References to your 'sorry arse' were merely rhetorical.

Nevertheless, I very much take your warning on board.

Yours

Athena

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to 'General Chit Chat

Unread post by David McCarthy » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:25 am

However, I posted after Joe under the 'General Chit Chat' heading to say something about this, but both his, and my post, disappeared.
Then just ask why your posts disappeared? :idea:
The same day one of Robairs posts disappeared, it was a glitch.
I don't know at this point what caused it.
What I do know is that all this flaming and accusations of dictatorships on EMF creates divisiveness and horrid assumptions, not to count the COUNTLESS HOURS we have put in to try and moderate EMF.
Oftentimes just a few lines written in ignorance or flaming cost the moderators hours if not days to clean up.
Your calling me names is not only unwarranted but hurtful, destructive and plain insulting.
You may find excuses in your thinking but it is inexcusable.
If I was a "dictator" as you suggest, you would have been removed from EMF long ago.
Please stop wasting my time and our EMF efforts.

David
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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" moved to "Off Topic" and lo

Unread post by David McCarthy » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:19 pm

to keep this thread on track re my point about constriction....now moved to another thread
Hi joe, your thread is where you posted it...it was not moved by the moderators.
(EMF) Online Forum • View topic - CONSTRICTION
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1765

You are welcome to copy and paste it here and then I will delete the other, if this will help?

David
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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" has been moved to "Off Topi

Unread post by joe sz » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:23 am

David,
OK: I pasted it under "Constriction" thread

so please delete the one above. still a bit confusing--I was also trying to post it to a thread that remains locked
I am beginning to feel like a driver with a virus in my GPS :-?

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Re: Joe's 'Catholic Church Cult" has been moved to "Off Topi

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:40 am

OK Joe it is done....
I am beginning to feel like a driver with a virus in my GPS
I understand,
Hopefully soon EMF will have move through these stormy waters making better sailors of us all.

David
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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