The EnlightenMeFree (EMF) Online Debate Forum - Read Only Until Further Notice

This Forum has been created by former members of RSE to make public the destructive, deceptive and illegal activities regarding JZK,Inc & JZ Knight at Ramtha's School of Enlightenment RSE.Inc
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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:46 pm 
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At the end of the day we are all responsible for self.

There's a difference between blame and personal responsibility-self betrayal. Isn't a matter of blame.

Self betrayal is when a person makes the choice to allow them self to be treated in a degrading way. For any reason.

Cigarettes don't kill anyone. The choice to smoke them does.

Self betrayal is when someone doesn't listen to their inner voice, values and integrity.

Love isn't superior. Doesn't demand worship. It doesn't enslave.

Love doesn't need to be rich and famous.

Ever watch the documentary on Aristotle Onassis?

Self respect is to remove ones self from an abusive environment. Self betrayal is when one does not.

Isn't a matter of blame or guilt.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:11 pm 
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The entire of RSE (in my day) wasn't about believing in Ramtha. It was about believing in ones own self. Learning how to do things. Uncover and utilize latent capabilities.

Learning about "image". The pit falls, snags and snares. It was seeing those very things in JZ that....red flag. The question for me became-is any of this beneficial to me. Does or doesn't it work.

Any time someone worships someone else or looks to someone else for answers they are not growing-they are dependent, not independent. Personal responsibility is to be responsible for ones self. If you go to the doctor and are not getting better? If you listen to the "news" and don't check it out.

I see it as a basket of eggs. If the basket of eggs is you and your life are you going to trust someone else to hold onto it and carry it for you? Make someone else responsible for my feelings/emotions?

People and lives are breakable. Doesn't matter who or what it is. At the end of the day we are all responsible for self.

Betrayal IS painful. Very. It's also inexcusable. When someone has been lied to, used, intentionally manipulated. Doesn't mean they "did anything wrong". It means the other person is a rotten character.

Dateline has a documentary. A nice christian family-by all appearance. Pillars in community. Happily married 30 years. Kids all grown-off to college. Man works out of town. Wife is robbed and shot. Husband hired the hit.

It doesn't mean SHE did anything "wrong". Or that somehow she deserved it.

He was convicted and got life in prison.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:17 pm 
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Forgot to add that the kids refused to believe their father was guilty. Stood by him through the trial. Irrefutable evidence.

The woman had been shot in the head. Lost an eye. Husband having affair. Hired hit. And the kids stood by dad-not mom. Go figure?

Mom was a christian woman. Kind, caring and giving. No one had anything bad to say about her. And her own kids sided against her with the very person that hired a hit?


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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:32 am 
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I posted about the woman that was shot because i was thinking about the people that made RSE their life.

That woman ...her whole life was her family and church. Being a "good" person. How would anyone come to terms with it? Her own kids support the man that...?

This isn't a random or misplaced thought. It's about "victim" and betrayal. Having ones life taken/destroyed. Finding out that what you believed is an illusion-lie. What's left? What's left when everything you believed in-turns out to be an illusion?

YOU. You have YOU.

When someone has been used, lied to, betrayed it does a number on their self esteem and confidence. For sure. In that weakened condition they are more likely to be further taken advantage of. Because they're "down" and vulnerable.

People that go against the status quo are going to be ostracized. It hurts deeply. But what is loyalty? Rather lack of loyalty? When someone turns against you it's because it isn't convenient to support you. Loyalty requires making a choice-there's a cost. When someone isn't loyal it's because the cost to them-is too high. Usually a matter of losing the acceptance of others. It's because of their weakness-not yours. It speaks to their character-not yours.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:09 pm 
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Quote:
There's a difference between blame and personal responsibility-self betrayal. Isn't a matter of blame.

Self betrayal is when a person makes the choice to allow them self to be treated in a degrading way. For any reason.

Cigarettes don't kill anyone. The choice to smoke them does.

Self betrayal is when someone doesn't listen to their inner voice, values and integrity.


Forever,

I think in discussing this it would be only fair to state that you are re-inventing a new definition for self-betrayal. One that strongly represents RSE teachings that one creates their own reality, and that one is responsible for everything which occurs. I could not disagree more.

This is the definition of self betrayal I would use: self-revelation http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-betrayal

In that sense it is exactly when someone listens to their "inner voice" that one can become capable of making mistakes in judgement and moreover, then it can become more difficult for one to perceive that this has taken place. In addition, unfortunately "Experience hands you the comb, after you have lost your hair" Chinese fortune cookie, Sum-luck-ee restaurant NYC 1978.

You have also raised many questions in your posts which are often "loaded questions" i.e.:
Quote:
I see it as a basket of eggs. If the basket of eggs is you and your life are you going to trust someone else to hold onto it and carry it for you? Make someone else responsible for my feelings/emotions?
.


This is a technique used in groups like RSE to limit the ability to address and debate the question by guiding the answers towards an acceptance of a statement or agenda. Similar to the question "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?".

I am not saying you are doing this deliberately, however, you may want to examine how this might fit in with your acceptance of some of what was taught at RSE.

In seeing the eggs and yourself and your life in the basket, you seem to have ignored the old adage "don't put your eggs in one basket" the meaning of which is to not put all of ones resources or prospects in one place because one might lose everything. This is exactly what RSE asks one to do, to put all their eggs in one basket, only it is their basket, and through techniques they get students to feel that it is their own basket they are putting them in and entrusting their lives to. In any event, as I am sure we all may have experienced at one time or another the adage not to have them in one basket has some consensus reality.

To continue to answer the above questions you posed, if all of my eggs were in one basket and for some reason beyond my control I felt that my ability to carry my basket (life) was endangered, fragile, or some other way in jeopardy, i would surely consider allowing someone else to assist me in carrying them. This would be a sharing of responsibility and a positive outlook towards self preservation in my view. Not as you in a continuation of your loaded question presumed that I would
Quote:
Make someone else responsible for my feelings/emotions?
.


In RSE the pseudo science pretends to have come up with a unified theory for quantum physics and classical physics thus solving very many contradictions and irreconcilable parts of both. In doing this it lifts the weight off ones mind in having to deal with these realities.

You seem to have a habit of wanting to to this in resolving age old enduring questions as I have mentioned before. However, the way in which you do this is in the same manner as RSE.

Quote:
People and lives are breakable. Doesn't matter who or what it is. At the end of the day we are all responsible for self.


In saying a statement like this you are making 2 statements first that are indisputable, then you add the third which you give emphasized finality. This is a linguistic trick (perhaps Joe can expound on the use of these types of statements in groups like RSE) in which the prior statements which one would normally agree aid in to producing an effect of making the final statement, the one which the person proposing it desires agreement to easier to accept.

Again, I am not saying you are doing this in a deliberate or nefarious manner, only pointing out that it is occurring and perhaps a learned behavior from RSE or somewhere else.

It is difficult for me to get where you are coming from sometimes without an inclusion of why you make such statements and what you would think might be the situation if those statement were not necessarily correct. i.e. if you found your cards by chance, chicanery, etc.,or if we were all notresponsible for self.

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"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."
-William Mizner


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:03 pm 
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Journey,

Appreciate the input. Had to read it several times to understand and not sure i do. What is apparent though is different points of reference always creates questions and/or misunderstandings. However, questions are healthy and i will respond.

Actually, i did forget about "all eggs in one basket" because i was speaking from a different reference-a personal experience. Many to be exact that cost me dearly because i did NOT listen to myself-that inner something. Uneasiness that told me something wasn't quite well.

Like standing at the alter and something said-it's not right. I didn't listen to myself. Found out quickly that i should have.

I went to a doctor with a symptom-repeatedly. Several antibiotics over as many months. Doctor didn't seem concerned. Again-that inner "something" said something was wrong. Not just in health issue department but at the office it'self. On the surface everything seemed alright and because i couldn't identify the uneasiness i experienced-i dismissed it. It damn near cost me life!!!!

I am not interested in sympathy. However, this much i will say. It cost me YEARS of my life. Surgery, chemo and radiation.
Gross negligence. Whereas, if i had listened to myself....? I might still have those body parts-that can't be replaced. :D

That's just a few to name and precisely what the "at the end of the day"...comes from. Not meant to be a loaded anything. Self betrayal? It's what i call it. Or should i say i was irresponsible? Misplaced trust? I SHOULD have been able to trust the doctors with my life. However, the point that is important in PREVENTING further devastation and victimization is for a person to understand that it's their life and no one is going to care about them as much as they do. It's a responsibility we have to our self.

Did i betray myself? YES, i did. Am i going to beat up on myself the rest of my life-NO.

Yes, i was naive in that i trusted my life to someone to whom i was just a number. That buries their mistakes. Does my irresponsibility let them off the hook? No. They were grossly and criminally negligent.

The woman that was shot? The point is that sometimes people can put their heart into something and be completely unaware of deception. It doesn't mean THEY did anything wrong or that they deserve it. People can do their best and still something can come out different than they anticipated.

I know what it is to be a victim-crushed by betrayal. Devastated. I am speaking from that in the hopes of helping someone prevent it. Rule number one-we are all responsible for our self. That is NOT saying that it's alright for others to manipulate, deceive and betray a trust. They are responsible for their behavior.

Every person that went to RSE has had an individual experience and a different take on it. I wasn't there during the abuse. Nor did i put all my eggs in one basket. I couldn't. Because i couldn't accept the atmosphere and environment-that others seemed comfortable with. I wasn't able to sit at Rams feet. Doesn't sitting at any ones feet defeat the reason for the "teachings" in the first place?


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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:59 am 
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Journey,

Dictionary.com
Quote:
2. To be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining or fulfilling...
exactly as i used and meant it. :-)


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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:02 pm 
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Journey,

Quote:
Quote:
Everything is energy and that's all there is to it. Match the frequency of the reality you want and you cannot help but get that reality. It can be no other way. This is not philosophy. This is physics.

-Albert Einstein


Is this what you mean by
Quote:
pseudo science?
:?:


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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:47 pm 
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These are not Einstein's words forever :-?
but preached by Darryl Anka who claims to be channeling an enlightened teacher named Bashar.
This is pseudo science.

David.

Related:
Einstein misquoted?
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/e ... ed.583449/
Bashar channeled by Darryl Anka
http://bashar.org/

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:03 am 
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I will investigate thoroughly. Considering the source is a responsibility and necessary in terms of accuracy and reliable information. :-)


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:40 am 
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Forever,

Thanks for your response.
Quote:
However, questions are healthy and i will respond.
If you will notice though, I did not ask you any questions….. in you response you posed some to yourself and I am not sure where the others are directed. I can see you have had some very difficult experiences and I can understand what appears to be your feeling , and I am paraphrasing here so please feel free to correct me "that the only one you can ultimately trust is yourself"

Quote:
The complexities of human morality are a mystery to anyone who believes a pure and perfect world is possible.

This needn’t be a deterrent to anyone who has invested hope, energy, and effort to build a better world. The human desire to do so - to make right what is wrong - is part of what makes our species honorable. But to work for a better world while simultaneously believing we can have a perfect one someday makes us extremely vulnerable to totalitarian influence.

http://www.quiethorizon.com/2014/08/the ... egacy.html

This is from the beginning of an article discussing one of the 8 methods of obtaining totalitarian control by Robert lifton in Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of "Brainwashing" in China. If you have not browsed through it, I would suggest it.

I know in my own case, I imbibed a philosophy that contained this sort of structure. Not only did it prevent me from perceiving what was really going on but the consequences were not pretty. Besides producing guilt and shame, it is extremely narcissistic.It becomes all about ones self. tunnel vision on the self to the exclusion of others. It is possible to be influenced in such a way that one becomes their own totalitarian leader. In that state a good part of the process of the demand for purity is to not betray ones self, always examine ones self, find ones flaws to hopefully eliminate them. The problem is the process is the flaw and it remains unseen to ones self. In many cases, one must first see it in others in order to recognize ones behavior.

Quote:
2. To be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining or fulfilling...


Quote:
adjective
1.
strict or thorough in the performance of duty:
a faithful worker.
2.
true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.
3.
steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant:
faithful friends.
4.
reliable, trusted, or believed.
5.
adhering or true to fact, a standard, or an original; accurate:
a faithful account; a faithful copy.
6.
Obsolete. full of faith; believing.


Quote:
adjective
1.
not faithful; false to duty, obligation, or promises; faithless; disloyal.
Dictionary.com

The choice between faithful and unfaithful is absolute. Black and white.

Fortunately, in my mind humanity is not like that. There are many shades, degrees to explore and learn from. Sure it is more difficult then a black and white world, but for myself the learning the ability to do so helps hone my perceptions and discernment.

I have been around long enough to be able to tell a good doctor from a mediocre one or a bad one. When I go to a new doctor, I have a list of questions written out that I want answers to. I don't fault them if they say I don't know unless they do not include "but I will find out for you and let you know". Also, people think I am a little nutty but after an examination, I ask if I can stand and when I get up, I go to the door and lean on the door nob while I ask my questions and don't leave until I am satisfied or give up. this keeps the doctor from running out of the room as most will tend to do. Sometimes, if one is in the hospital one does not have the ability to attempt this type of control and in that case relying on a trusted friend or family member is essential.

I can understand that you have had difficulties, perhaps more then your share. I don't know how you would feel if some of the things that you think did not occur, you did not address that. Perhaps if you did, you would gain some insight into your own questions. :idea:

_________________
"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."

-William Mizner


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:46 am 
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I forgot, the pseudo science I was referring to is RSE misuse of quantum mechanics as they relate to classical physics. They lead one to the belief that what happens on the quantum scale happens on the scale of things ruled by classical physics, thus unifying the two.

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"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."

-William Mizner


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:29 am 
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Journey,

I am not the only one with condensed posts :-)

Where did i say that ultimately
Quote:
i am the only one i can trust?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:15 am 
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Journey,

I agree, you did not ask questions. You launched an attack and made accusations. Made statements. Without knowing from what i speak? Is that kind or fair?

Do you assume that because you have confidence and experience and can handle yourself in a given situation that others, more specifically that i have been able to?

I had very little experience with doctors at age 50. I got brain washed. Go ahead and attack that if you wish but it's the truth. I did ask questions but was made to feel small. And i didn't have the experience or confidence at that time to know BS when i hear it. Learning to believe in myself has been a life long journey. Learning to listen to my inner being, soul, source, voice or whatever it's called. Gut works for me for the sake of avoiding dispute. As blunt and crude as it is.

i trusted those doctors with my life and SHOULD have been able to do so. Yes, i was brain washed. Everyone was. They make JZ Knight look like an honest, compassionate person by contrast. But the truth has a way of coming out. I ask the hospital for a copy of records and discovered that my doctor had not read the radiology report. Not once-but twice. Six months apart. It's even worse than than that.

I had reservations. Gut said RUN! I didn't listen. After all who am i and what do i know.

The doctor came to my apartment. I was new to town. Didn't know anyone and had no help. Was awfully crippled. To the extent of hardly being able to walk, stand, dress or do basics. I was sleeping in a recliner. Actually, it was all i owned. But i had gotten out and away from a bad relationship and was so happy to just be with myself that i didn't see myself as poor. I saw myself as FREE!

The doctor was a "friend" to me. Came to my apartment and put a bed together for me. So i would not have to sleep in a recliner. And invited me to a weekend get away. All expenses paid. With the doctor and others. Not the first doctor to invite me to a meeting outside of business.

I get that you sit in judgement of me. But it's because of the grief and pain i have had that i try to inspire and make a difference. People are people, doctor, lawyer and Indian Chief...literally. Speaking from personal experience.

I say thank you. Send cards. Walk up to strangers and give them something-as an act of kindness. It did not occur to me that ANYONE much less a doctor could do what happened.

I have to stop here and regroup before saying more.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:32 am 
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Hi forever

No you did not ultimately say "i am the only one i can trust?"
Nor was the word "ultimately" used by journeythroughramthaland.
when you posted.....
Quote:
If the basket of eggs is you and your life are you going to trust someone else to hold onto it and carry it for you? Make someone else responsible for my feelings/emotions?

Because of your thread topic titled: "At the end of the day we are all responsible for self"
It does translate you are referring to yourself to hold that 'trust" and control over that the basket of breakable eggs "your life".
Yes, No?
Can you clarify your statement?

Thanks.....

David

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:47 am 
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David,

Look again. Yes it is said. :-)


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:01 am 
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I stand corrected.... :oops:
Thank you forever.
However..
Quote:
If the basket of eggs is you and your life are you going to trust someone else to hold onto it and carry it for you? Make someone else responsible for my feelings/emotions?

Because of your thread topic titled: "At the end of the day we are all responsible for self"
It does translate you are referring to yourself to hold that 'trust" and control over that the basket of breakable eggs "your life".
Yes, No?
Can you clarify your statement?

Thanks.....

David

- Moderator Comment -
Forever,
I read no ill intent in journey's post as an attack, only a willingness to dig deep to find understanding and common ground.
This is a debate forum where respectful disagreements of opinion are allowed.
As often the case.... when debating contentious issues they can easily be misconstrued as a personal attack and derailed for further debate :-?

Please allow others to respectfully disagree with you, and or, post an opposing critical opinion ...... :D

David

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:31 am 
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Journey,

The difference between unfaithful and faithful (to ones self) is conformity. In other words go along to get along? With someone or something because it's acceptable to the majority???? Or to avoid friction?

There's a LOT of misconceptions coming from assumptions. From people having different experiences and point of reference? Being responsible does not equate with being a totalitarian. Anyone that has nothing beyond them self... their opinion...their wants/needs....has a small world.

I can't go along to get along and then blame others for my life. Nor can i place my expectations, want/needs on others. make them responsible for my happiness/fulfillment etc. I am talking about personal responsibility we all have to our self. That somehow people confuse with excluding all others. Running over others. I have heard a lot about, "we all create our reality" as an excuse to have no regard for others? It isn't even related-or compatible with being responsible.

RSE has nothing to do with the fact we DO create our circumstances by our choices. And at the end of the day regardless of WHY we made a certain choice-the result of it is on the shoulders of the one that made it. That denotes personal responsibility-NOT blame. It also reduces the risk of regret/victimization. Choices made on lack of perception/ignorance?

Yes, in a neat and perfect world trust is not an issue. It's one for all and all for one. But the last time i looked it isn't a neat and perfect world? If i leave my wallet on the seat of an unlocked car-visible. And it gets stolen? Yes. the thief is wrong and rotten. But i was irresponsible and the result is my stolen wallet. What am i a victim of? I am talking about personal responsibility. Common sense.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:04 am 
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Journey,

You made the the statement that
Quote:
without inclusion.....
:?:

I responded with inclusion. :-)



P.S. I read the word nefarious some place. You are saying i am wicked?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:14 am 
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I need to clarify the doctor was a female. It was a friendship.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:17 am 
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- Moderator Comment -

Quote:
forever: P.S. I read the word nefarious some place. You are saying i am wicked?


Do you jest?

David

PM sent

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:44 am 
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I seriously doubt that Dr. Einstein would have said that, "... everything is energy...," because that simply is not true (in the context of Dr. Einstein), or else there would be no need for e=mC^2. Further, I wish New Agers would stop contorting science to try to justify the notion that thinking happy thoughts will manifest the lifestyle one wants. The branch of modern physics that Judy Knight, Rhonda Byrne and other New Age wags like to distort is quantum mechanics or as they call it, quantum physics. Specifically, that is the study of quanta, hence its name. It is a misapplication of quantum mechanics to describe macroscopic systems such as ourselves. Even a single atom is a macroscopic system and behaves in a Newtonian manner. At the level of one atom, peculiar effects such as entanglement and particle/wave duality do not apply.

Trying to say quantum mechanics somehow suggests that I can manifest the reality I want by possessing a thought is like measuring the height of Steven Harper and saying that it explains the layout of streets in Auckland. Yes, you can say Steven Harper is about 2 meters tall, and you can look at a map of Auckland, but to connect the two is a useless non sequitur. The physical concept of linear dimension measured in meters may be applied to both Steven Harper and Auckland's streets, but it doesn't establish a relation between the two.

I recommend the following text by Brian Greene: The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality I believe you should be able to find this text in most well stocked public libraries. This book has been in print since 2004. Brian Greene at the 2014 World Science Festival: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbCl4p5TDPc


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:38 am 
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There is no one size fits all. In reference to black/white vs shades. As a matter of fact isn't that what contention is all about on planet earth? People not respecting/allowing others to think/believe differently?

Who and what sets the standard for the right or wrong way to think or believe? A persons reality IS based upon their experiences. As a result what's real to one person.... :-) :?:

What works for one might not be what works for another. What's alright for one person morally-might not be healthy for another. Some people are comfortable in "shades" while others are devastated by it. That's why a person has a responsibility to them self to listen to their soul/gut for what is and isn't what's best or right for them.

At the end of the day........it's all about choices.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:07 pm 
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I believe this discussion has become a blend of the discussion of morality, perception and reality. These are interlocking however separate concepts. The RSE paradigm of thought reform and mind control blurs the interpretation of these three concepts and variably substitutes one another of these three for the others. Until an individual clarifies and separates these concepts it is difficult or even impossible to think objectively.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:21 pm 
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Forever,
A couple of things.
Quote:
Again, I am not saying you are doing this in a deliberate or nefarious manner,
You appear to have missed the word not, no offense intended. hence not an attack.

You use often rhetorical questions. These are a device used to emphasize a point and not intended to encourage discussion but to terminate it. Unless they are being used in a provocative way. Then they are being used to provoke a debate.

Sometimes you use questions that are undefinable to me. Best I can describe them are incomplete sentences with question marks.
Quote:
Quote:
The difference between unfaithful and faithful (to ones self) is conformity
. In other words go along to get along? With someone or something because it's acceptable to the majority???? Or to avoid friction?

While I think I understand what you are trying to say here and I will respond in that regard. The way in which you pose it makes it more convoluted then it needs to be and certainly difficult for others to follow if they are not involved in the conversation. Also, if you quote me, please included the context i.e. sentence it was used in so I don't have to peruse the whole page to find it. Thanks

Your statement
Quote:
The difference between unfaithful and faithful (to ones self) is conformity
is not true. The differences are clear from the definitions posted above. That conformity may cause one to be unfaithful or faithful, is true. But then again, so can non-conformity or any other countless things. That begs the question what is the meaning of your statement?

When I said "that the only one you can ultimately trust is yourself" I was paraphrasing what I felt was the theme of your narrative in your posts, not only here but in other places as well. As I said, if you do not think that to be accurate please let me know. I take "at the end of the day" to be the equivalent of ultimately. That said, if we are all responsible for self (and I like to say we are a lot of people), if one were not trusting of ones self it doesn't seem possible to be responsible for ones self. The statement implicitly implies trust.

About the doctor thing. I regret if that offended you. My telling of that experience was only meant to share with you and I did not intend to be condescending. If I came across like that I apologize. To be clearer, I am 63 years old, when I said I have been around long enough, I didn't mean I had developed some sort of special skill. In fact, it took me until I was about 50 to develop the method I described and it is by no means an infallible way to discern who is a good doctor. It simply helps me do that. I had found that no matter how much I went over the questions I wanted to ask the doctors, I would leave forgetting to ask some of the most relevant ones.

When in the presence of authorities virtually all of us act in deference to them. This can inhibit questioning their judgements and actions. I found that outside of the doctors office I could develop my questions at my leisure and writing them down enabled me to have the confidence that I could present them effectively.

Quote:
However, the point that is important in PREVENTING further devastation and victimization is for a person to understand that it's their life and no one is going to care about them as much as they do. It's a responsibility we have to our self.


Quote:
If i leave my wallet on the seat of an unlocked car-visible. And it gets stolen? Yes. the thief is wrong and rotten. But i was irresponsible and the result is my stolen wallet. What am i a victim of? I am talking about personal responsibility. Common sense.


I agree that to strive towards preventing further devastation and victimization is a virtue to strive towards. However, you again focus only on the self as a way of doing so. Take the unlocked car scenario. I always look at what is left out in scenarios such as this which are used to justify points of view or behavior. What you left out in the scenario is; Did it happen again? How many times? Every time? Only once? etc, all the variables the quantify and qualify a scenario like this.

This is the difference, The thief is virtually always inexcusable in their behavior while the wallet leaver has many other possible explanations and certainly if it is a one or occasional event they have virtually no accountability in my opinion. In the same way that I feel that you more then likely do not have to be held accountable for the doctor or RSE experiences be it by anyone else or yourself.

Yet, I find it hard to reconcile, given your outlook on self responsibility how you cannot be holding yourself accountable to some degree. SInce you raised the issue of self responsibility, it is just unclear to me to what degree you are holding yourself accountable and I am speaking of RSE in this case. this is not the forum to discuss private health issues unless they are related.

One other thought, I am not sure I understand the extent of your experience in RSE. Could you please clarify the time period you were involved in events and if you maintained current status or not. I believe my daughter may have been there at the same time period and I would like to compare her perceptions to yours if so.

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"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."

-William Mizner


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:27 pm 
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Quote:
The RSE paradigm of thought reform and mind control blurs the interpretation of these three concepts and variably substitutes one another of these three for the others.


Yes, this is true, it is necessary to develop some sort of framework within which to discuss these things otherwise it can become like nailing jello to a wall! Without having come to agreement on definitions of words, concepts integrating the conversation is difficult to say the least.

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"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."

-William Mizner


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:16 pm 
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Journey, Ockham, spectators and anyone watching this :D

Brainwashing to ME is when something someone knows something to be real and is told it it isn't. Isn't real. That they are somehow mistaken in their comprehension. And then their "reality" is replaced with something else.

I have been attacked (it is an attack) for how i think, what i believe, have experienced. Because it has not been the experience of others. For that reason it is not real to them. Therefore-i have twisted thinking, And the priority is to "straighten out" and correct my reality. Change how i think to the accepted reality of others. I am very aware of this.

Example: I did not experience what i think i did i did at RSE. I didn't really find a card, It's all trickery somehow. The void is rigged. Miracles are to be quick gotten rid of. Thoughts, attitudes and choices do NOT "create reality". Meaning a persons circumstances. And anything that isn't visible to the naked eye doesn't exist. That's just for starters guys.

When something i say is attacked or i ask for an explanation there isn't one. It's ignored.

There's a difference between an honest debate vs the priority/agenda to change how someone thinks.

In the end people believe what fits their "reality", comfort zone.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:15 pm 
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If people want to consult with others on what they should or should not think-it's their business. How a person lives their life-is their business.

I have thrown out things to people coming out of betrayal, deception. That have "given their power away" (RSE speak but at least a mutual point of reference so i am using it) through deference.

In MY experience when that is happening there's an inner something that lets a person know something isn't right. They have a CHOICE to trust it-or not. Listen to it-or not. CHOICE! In other words-they are in charge. Heed the warning or ignore.

Either way AT THE END OF THE DAY that person is left holding the bag of results of whatever choice they made.

If people want to believe that a BUSINESS cares about them-has their best interest at heart-is looking out for them or that someone else is going to put them first ( that's a broad statement and volumes but not here or now).....but the fact that they are PAYING for a service.....is in and of itself a buyer beware. The person you are paying is there to make $$$$$. They are looking out for their best interest-not necessarily yours. I used the doctor as an EXAMPLE! And can honestly say that it was a scam and brainwashing.

Example of "deference"? (Journey)

Isn't that what happens at RSE? And the result of deference is why EMF is alive and well?

No one that's been treated like garbage, used, abused and humiliated, a VICTIM wants to be told that their choices and perception has to be examined. In other words-how did it happen. How did they get duped? It's in understanding and identifying it that (hopefully) reduces the risk of history repeating.

I am talking about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. For ones safety, well being and life. Prevention. And have tried to throw out concepts to people that are in the process of regaining their self. Because SELF is what's lost in deference. A word i am borrowing from Journey as a concept that is applicable fundamentally.

I am NOT saying go live in a prison with bars on the window. Be an island. Nor am i saying that the person doing the duping is not accountable.

I AM saying don't expect anyone to look out for you or your best interest. That it's everyone's personal responsibility to look out for them self. Now, for clarification, that does NOT equate with go out and be a selfish, self centered jerk, sociopath. I am saying be responsible. Because at the end of the day.....the choices you have made....have results.
Quote:
Would that be called cause and effect?


I am NOT talking about blame. Beating on ones self. Slinking around. Crawling off to the nearest corner. Isn't taking responsibility what EMF is about? Different people were affected differently by RSE. Some were NOT injured. I have read posts.

Believe in yourself is what i am saying. Listen to yourself. Trust that red flag. I have read posts of people saying they didn't listen to their inner voice. The people i am aiming at are not the ones with the confidence. They are ones looking for answers. Trying to understand how they were injured and are trying to get up.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:22 pm 
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Journey,

I am asking you a question. What is your interest-intent in a dialogue? Is it because you are honestly interested in something i have said or is it because you think i need to have my thinking corrected? Straightened out?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:56 pm 
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Forever,

If we are going to continue this conversation I need to have some ground rules, i.e. a framework within which it can be discussed. Otherwise, like I said, it is like trying to nail Jell-O to a wall. In order to get the Jell-O on the wall it needs to be in a container first. I am not dictating all the rules, you can present your own and if I feel that I can comply with them I will. Once we have the mutually agreed framework laid out we can progress with our discussion. Without this, enduring frustration on both our parts is inevitable. Here are some of mine

i. Any direct questions get an answer. It's ok if it is I don’t know, or I don’t want to talk about it. If it is I don’t want to talk about it. It will not be brought up again until the person saying that brings it up.

If there are multiple questions and some are answerable directly but others need more thought, it’s fine to answer the ones that can be answered, and the others at a later time as long as that is stated clearly and they are eventually answered not just left in limbo. Again, if it is not possible to answer, that is fine as long as it is stated and made clear, no problem.

ii. Make all attempts to avoid speaking cryptically or making reference to things that are not out in the open. If this occurs, try not to get upset when confronted with this fact.

iii. Agree that statements will not be taken personally unless they have been directed on a personal level.

These rules are not set in stone, but will prevail until changed by mutual agreement.

That’s it for me, if there are some you would like to make, or, revise the above, please feel free to present them.

Quote:
When something I say is attacked or I ask for an explanation there isn't one. It's ignored
.

I get that you feel attacked, that would also imply that you feel threatened. I do not believe anyone on this board would knowingly want to make you feel this way. I may have confronted you (I use the word in the sense that a difficult issue or situation is being dealt with), if you feel that threatens you just let me know because that is not my intention. When you speak about your asking for an explanation and being ignored, if you are addressing that to me, please point it out so I can address it, it is possible I overlooked it. I feel frustration when someone ignores my questions.

Question: Have I attacked you?

If you feel threatened by anything I say, please give an example and then an example of how you think I might have said it differently so I have an opportunity to include that in my thought process in having any future discussions with you.

OK, I will proceed to answer your questions posed to me.

An example of deference; I go to visit a Japanese family, they ask me to take my shoes off at the door, I take them off. I do that in deference to their culture and to them as my host. I would do that in any person’s house that asked me to. Now, it is possible that also in deference to my host I might say “Gee, I really don’t think you would want me to, my feet are so smelly I would not want to subject you to that."

I am showing respect. In this case it is both personal and cultural.

Quote:
Isn't that what happens at RSE?


It does happen, but not in the sense of degree I was using it in my post. Also, by far it is not the only thing happening, the primary thing that is occurring is an effective indoctrination program geared towards their own agenda. I meant that as a culture, we show deference to authority unconsciously (see Milligram experiment) to varying degree’s, it’s effect vary. The sirens that go off from the police car behind you makes ones heart race (that’s fear not respect) the submissive attitude towards on acct. or atty is another example.

If it happens in these instances, how much greater do you think the unconscious effect would be if one thought they were in the presence of a God?

Quote:
What is your interest-intent in a dialogue?

In this case, with you, it is to exchange opinions and ideas.

“Is it because you are honestly interested in something i have said or is it because you think i need to have my thinking corrected? Straightened out?”

See the above.

If you would like me to clarify anything feel free to let me know.

How long were you involved in RSE?

Were you able to remain current?

What was the time frame you were there?

Thanks in advance.

_________________
"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."

-William Mizner


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:16 am 
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Journey,

First question: Do you mind if i address you as Journey rather than full EMF name?

Your rules are reasonable and acceptable to me.


My Rules.

1. Please do not talk down to me.
2. When you don't agree with something i say please don't assume and proceed from a position that i am automatically wrong. And then set about to correct/change what i have said.

Example. It was "talking down" to me when your began with telling me i "reinvented" the definition of self betrayal. When in fact i used it accurately. It seemed to me that your post was about telling me how i should think? I took it as an attack and shot back. Being undermined.

Please don't make assumptions. it's my greatest frustration.

Example: When i said i felt attacked you interpreted it as feeling
Quote:
threatened.
And i do not feel threatened. I feel insulted, undermined, ridiculed, belittled, talked down to rather than respected.

Please don't make different wrong.
Example: We have had VERY different life styles. Is yours wrong and mine is right? Or simply a matter of personal choice and different?

In other words, is being different grounds for criticism? Because if it is there is no room for an exchange-communication. In all honesty i am not interested in attacking or being attacked. Hostility and criticism isn't healthy or productive. It slams the door shut in someones face.

Actual communication is work. And i believe it's rare. That people talk AT each other but rarely actually communicate?

If i misunderstand something and ask a question/clarification please don't ridicule me.
Example: You used the word
Quote:
nefarious :?: I thought i knew what you were saying but to be sure i looked it up. And was shocked to find it means WICKED and EVIL. Confused i said something. And David responded with,
Quote:
"surely you jest".


In other words i am stupid?

Regarding your example of deference. Perfect. Thank you. I agree with you that at RSE people make Ramtha their God. I don't think i said that right. I understand what you are saying about if people think they in the presence of God ...i want us to take that thought and expound on it. Because to ME-rather IMO it's key in NOT being a victim. To anyone.

Meaning regardless who, when, where or what, someone will not be manipulated. Is that the word? Deceived. Duped. USED! Intimidated :D Doubt them self.

I have a question please. I read your post. But i don't have a complete picture or an ending. I do not understand what happened. Are you willing to elaborate? I have never heard of such a thing and i want to to understand it.

You ask about my involvement at RSE. Not a cut and dried answer-exactly.

I was at beginners 1997? And 1998? Was current 1-2 years? Long time ago. My involvement with the 'teachings" -not a cut/dried answer. I wasn't integrated. I used the teachings (imo) in a much different way than others. To address a specific issue.

What happened to Bo?

Also, i do not know your daughter. I watched the LARSE.

I think if we can get a dialogue going it will be of help to others that will eventually find EMF.


Before i ever heard of RSE and was asking questions i read the book,
Quote:
The Road less Traveled.

It had an effect and was helpful. Tonight i came upon it in my library and will be posting quotes. it's written by a M. Scott Peck, M.D. and to my surprise reflects my attitude and thinking. I will post.

I don't like the way i worded my rules? I possibly am coming across as ...a little defensive at this time. There's been quite a fisty cuff in motion.

Respectfully


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:45 am 
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- Moderator Comment -

This debate is very much open to all EMF members to contribute.
Please endeavour to stay on topic.
Quotes and opinion's deemed supportive of the RSE doctrines will be split moved to our RSE supporters debate forum without notice.
Thank you everyone for your support, understanding and staying on topic > At the end of the day we are all responsible for self <

David :D

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:09 am 
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Hi forever
Quote:
forever:
The entire of RSE (in my day) wasn't about believing in Ramtha. It was about believing in ones own self. Learning how to do things. Uncover and utilize latent capabilities.

Quote:
forever:
I was at beginners 1997? And 1998? Was current 1-2 years?

If I may ask....
Is this the time frame and attendance of your direct involvement with RSE in Yelm?
You were a 'current' as a 'beginner student' (RSE Term) for two years - circa RSE 1997-98 and did not move to Yelm?
This is important to understand the levels of indoctrinations/abuses you may or, may not, have been directly submitted too during your time attending RSE.
This I am sure will help us better understand your perspective regarding your topic thread " At the end of the day we are all responsible for self" in the context of RSE.
As it is in the context of RSE that is paramount to debate this topic on EMF.

Hope I'm making sense here...
Thanks...

David

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:49 am 
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David,

I just read a pm from you. For the sake of discussion i am asking you to post it please on this thread.
discussion.

In response to the questions in that pm. I was in Yelm only months. Because i couldn't handle the lack of character and dog eat dog of RSE community. I wasn't there to party.If you have been to RSE it doesn't take an imagination to know what i am saying.

I was confused and shocked by what i saw/heard from students. Mainly that the teachings don't work. And no one had anything good to say about JZ or other students. This was exceedingly confusing for and to me. These were 10 year students. "Advanced" students by rank but completely first seal people. The males anyway. The females i met went to events and were current but it's as if it wasn't actually a part of them or their life? Meaning they were separate from the teachings. Meaning that it wasn't something they took home with them. They went to events. But/and went back home...without being effected/changed?

I don't think i ever did a C and E session...but once/twice? And maybe an hour. As a new student i ask an advanced student to do C and E with me and she no-because C and E is personal.

I didn't do focus beach. Wasn't put thru the wringer like what i have read on EMF. RSE, the teachings were not abusive. The students were. To each other. I stayed far away not wanting involvemet with students. Drove in from out of state for events. At no time in my life had i ever seen such power whores.

Forgive my foul mouth but what i saw/heard from students isn't anything i am going to forget. Ever. It's ugly. And it cannot be blamed on the teachings because it is NOT what's taught. And imo is not the result of "brainwashing/mind control etc.

RSE attracted people from all walks of life. Different shades ( journey concept) of character. Different agenda, priority and values. Some people saw it as an opportunity to take advantage of others. The ones from other countries that had no green card? They had no $$$. Ruthless. Master center? Harsh. Shudder.

I didn't learn the "teachings" at RSE-other than basics. I got it to go.

I was uncomfortable at RSE wine ceremonies. Stayed outside. Didn't really participate because not only was it overwhelming to me but it was confusing. Because it seemed contradictory to what i had read in white book and seen in video. A different Ramtha? I am trying to express my observation/perception of wine ceremony.

To ME ( and who the hell was i to have an opinion?) it seemed like bragging. It bothered me. Ramtha was teaching and i was out wandering around on the grounds. Overwhelmed. It was painful. Emotionally. Because i was hearing things that i was not mentally or emotionally prepared to handle in addition to all else. Like Trance Formation...Mark Phillips..devastating emotionally and mentally to anyone with a heart. I didn't want to know the world is as wicked as it is. I had gone through life looking for the good in others and life. How to make the world a better place. ( without looking at how to make myself a better person)

The field, tank, sending and receiving, archery, twilight, blue college. I was at first blue college...i think. Long time ago. When we slept in the tank. Blindfolded.

To me it was an adventure. A challenge, play ground doing the forest and tank. Unforgettable experience that ironically is THE very topic of this thread.

Not sure you want to hear it but i am sure i am not the only one that experienced what i did. I will share it and you can erase it.

I was gung ho on forest. Excited. We were taken out and turned loose. With the goal to get to the tank-void.
I stumbled around-wasn't really serious...at first. And i got hung up in a corner at the fence next to the road. Couldn't figure out where i was. But cars were close and stopping. Then i heard a voice-Vicki Kady. Ask someone "can i help you"? and i realized cars had stopped and people were watching me.

Vicki took me by the arm to a log and told me to sit down and rest. Gave me water and electrolytes? I think that's what it was. She told me to stay there until i had rested and then go slightly to my right.

I tripped over a log? Bumped into trees. And then it was no longer a playground or fun. It occurred to me i was out in the middle of a forest-with NO path. ALONE. What happened next changed me forever.

I stood there thinking about my life. The story of my life. Couldn't depend on myself because i didn't believe in myself. And in trusting others had discovered i couldn't trust or depend on them either.

In that moment i changed-forever. Up until then i had wanted to be able to depend on others. On what i am told. (relationships) the world at large. In that moment getting out of the forest, to the tank and void wasn't important any longer. being able to depend on MYSELF became "the" priority.

It would NOT have been of value to me to have someone "rescue" me. Get me by the hand and lead me out of the forest. I needed to be able to lead myself. Depend on myself. Not just through the forest but through life. Trust and rely on my own judgement.

I was at the truth teachings..i think it's what that segment/era is called. I bought the tapes. That primarily are the teachings i am aware of. That i have used as self help. On how NOT to be a victim. On taking responsibility for myself.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:15 am 
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Quote:
I just read a pm from you. For the sake of discussion i am asking you to post it please on this thread.
discussion.

here ya go...in full :idea:
Quote:
Moderator PM to forever - Mar 28, 2015

A friendly reminder forever...

EMF POSTING GUIDELINES Registration Agreement Terms
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3
Responsibility of the Posters

EMF is discovered by people who are coming from all walks of life, having their own unique story to tell about RSE and, some of whom are very much in need of support. This forum is intended for them to have a safe haven for posting their experiences without being attacked or judged for the content of their posts. This can be done without flames.
Obviously, this is due to the fact that people that should be posting on EMF, who are either ex-members who are not proselytizing for RSE, or have family who is in the RSE, who need support and information.
These people may not be at their emotionally strongest point in their lives. What they need at EMF is support, and information about the dynamics of cults, mind control tactics, and recovery resource materials.
Then, they can work toward their recovery and reintegrating into a healthy lifestyle, or helping their loved ones and themselves as affected family and-or friends.
What posters, as well as readers, don't need are people who refuse to restrain themselves. Such posters apparently think they are entitled to their judgmental, arrogant, condescending, hateful, intolerant, angry attitudes. That comes biting through in posts that flame people, instead of addressing issues.
Posters should expect that since we have all had different experiences, share different viewpoints, and have different personalities, that you will be reading posts that you strongly disagree with.
There are no 'conditions of belief' for EMF posters. When you read a post that you think is opposite what you believe, perhaps it's best to respect another person's right to see things differently, and ignore the post. If we all feel the need to chime in every time we disagree with a post, we'll eventually have reason to find fault in every person. If you disagree with a viewpoint, and want to refute it, feel free to do so WITHOUT FLAMING THE PERSON and 'making them wrong', or trying to 'make yourself right'. There's much to be learned from other people's perspectives, and who knows - we may even expand our own.
We can be angry at a poster's comments, or RSE for the scam, or JZ, or "Ramtha" etc., but we can't be hypocrits who come on here and post by calling people swears.
That only makes us as guilty as "Ramtha" when we criticize how "he" talked to students during the so-called "Truth Teachings" in wine ceremonies. We want a higher standard that that, here.
Posters may or may not agree with these posting guidelines.
If they do not, they are at risk for having their posts edited to fit these guidelines, or deleted. Repeatedly ignoring the guidelines puts posters at risk for being temporarily or permanently banned from this forum entirely. If these actions are taken, they may also occur without notice.

EMF POSTING GUIDELINES Registration Agreement Terms
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3

______________________________________________________________________
Quote:
Subject: At the end of the day we are all responsible for self.
forever wrote:
Journey,
You made the the statement that
Quote:
without inclusion.....

I responded with inclusion.
P.S. I read the word nefarious some place. You are saying i am wicked?

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:35 am 
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Students had a relationship with Ramtha i didn't have. Or understand. Ramtha seemed to be what was important to them. I am trying hard to find the right words to paint a picture .

Example. I didn't see or hear students celebrate something in their life or them self they had conquered. At that time all the buzz was Omega. I lost $1000.

From what i saw/heard it wasn't about spirit/soul....growth. Development. It was about $$$$. Having more money. Events seemed to be what students lived for. But not....

The "teachings" were about their life. How to have a better life.

My priority has been to use the teachings to become stronger and wiser. NOT depend on Ramtha. I learned that early on. After driving across the country and Ramtha was a no show. Stood up. And instead of Ramtha-there was a wine ceremony. I wanted to go out to the field and Greg said no. It took once being stood up by Ramtha to learn in a hurry NOT to put my eggs in that basket. I wasn't there to party and it was an empty lonely experience.

Make no mistake. RSE was HARD for me. Work.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:55 am 
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David,

I ask you to post it because i couldn't agree more.

Thank You :-)


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:07 am 
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- Moderator Comment-
Hi forever,
thank you for your posts.
Quote:
Wasn't put thru the wringer like what i have read on EMF. RSE, the teachings were not abusive. The students were.

Some very important clarifications are needed here please...
Are you stating that ( in your opinion) the 'RSE ''teachings' are not abusive, or, just in reference to your interaction with abusive RSE members?
Please clarify your statements.
Quote:
but what i saw/heard from students isn't anything i am going to forget. Ever. It's ugly. And it cannot be blamed on the teachings because it is NOT what's taught. And imo is not the result of "brainwashing/mind control etc.

This helps explains why you ardently support your opinion - 'At the end of the day we are all responsible for self'
This is somewhat inline with the RSE teachings that you also have stated... are not abusive nor that JZ K-R uses
methods of cult "brainwashing/mind control etc." methods, etc as in coercive/deceptive at RSE?
Again.. Please clarify your statements.
Quote:
Not sure you want to hear it but i am sure i am not the only one that experienced what i did. I will share it and you can erase it
Please understand forever... I, nor others may not 'want' to hear 'everything' you have to say.
Removing any post off EMF is not taken lightly, furthermore... posts are never deleted but moved to our moderators forum for further consideration and always kept on record.
This thread nor its contents are not going to be 'erased'...
However...This thread is now up for moderator consideration to be moved to our RSE supporters debate forum.

David

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:50 am 
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I am not sure i understand the question you are asking about the teachings being/not being abusive.


The events i attended no one was beat on-beat up by Ramtha. (i am using words that identify) It was NOT like that. I heard things but it was always second hand-rumor. :roll: and something that was allegedly said either at a previous event or one after,

At NO time at events i was at did i hear R single someone out and berate. When i was there people were being praised. I have it on tape.

You are asking if i think the teachings are abusive? Can you clarify WHICH teachings you're talking about?

Teachings or practices? Two entirely different things. I am not sure what you mean.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:02 am 
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This is something that might help clarify.

What i saw reminded me of a litter of puppies all crawling over each other to get to the milk. Ramtha.

It's crude. But accurate. And it's what confused me-greatly at that time. Because it's contradictory to "God within" and "you are gods". So why is everyone trying to get to Ramtha? instead of going within, looking within?

I did hear R at an event say he had been named A-hole of the month by playboy for not supporting specific sexual behavior. And he said, " i will see you in the light". Not in a friendly tone.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:10 am 
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Whoa David.

I reread your questions for clarification. unless i misread/misunderstood ...when have i EVER said there isn't brainwashing?

My stance has been that at first there's an inner voice/alarm. And at THAT point people have a choice to listen-or not. If they consistently dismiss it ....they are in serious trouble.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:21 am 
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I am sure i have posted on seeing the news paper article pinned on wall in corridor to bathrooms. And it didn't set well with me at all. Because i was hearing two different stories/things.

1, Ramtha's love for us and his mission to teach us.

2. JZ being exalted as a successful business woman.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:25 pm 
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- Moderator Comment -

This topic thread has been moved to our JZK/Ramtha RSE Supporters Debate Forum.

Thank you everyone for your ongoing support and understanding

David

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:36 pm 
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forever
- Please consider this a moderator warning -
Any further post you make outside the RSE supporters debate forum will be removed without notice.
If further moderator warnings are deemed necessary,
you will no longer be welcome to participate on EMF.

David


Related.
Quote:
JZK/Ramtha RSE supporters Debate Forum
POSTING GUIDELINES: Please Read
The RSE supporter’s debate forum is the ONLY place on EMF where supportive based posts regarding the philosophies and concepts of RSE JZK/Ramtha will be tolerated.
This also means that all posts that cast a supportive viewpoint of the RSE doctrines and practices will be moved to the RSE supporters forum without notice.
If you are an RSE supporter , including family members or friends of current or former RSE students
who wants to debate issues related to the RSE experiences, then this EMF thread has been created primarily for you,
and is your opportunity to post without fear of ridicule or intimidation,
with tolerance and respect from all posters for what may be diverse differences, is necessary.
All posters are requested to post respectfully or your post will be at risk for deletion,
As in keeping with our stated purpose for this website, posts that attempt to use this forum as a proselytizing tool for RSE will be deleted without notice.
JZ Knight/Ramtha quotes may be deleted without notice.
If you have any questions or comments, email: enlightenmefree@gmail.com

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:15 pm 
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I see a problem with receiving a take-away message from RSE study that one must always be totally self sufficient, never ceding the slightest scrap of power to anybody else. That simply isn't possible. You can't even get on your bicycle and ride anywhere without depending on other people not to run you over. Virtually everything in life requires us to reach out beyond ourselves to be more than what we are alone. Even bacteria have that figured out.

RSE uses its teaching to strip people of their social fabric and makes them dependent on the teaching and that keeps the dependent person paying to get more teaching. It is textbook cultic thought reform.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:14 pm 
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David,


You have just clarified why i ask you to post the pm of posting rules i received from you. Because not only are you bias and critical of me in a way you would never be to the guys, they wouldn't tolerate it. But you are guilty of the very things you say RSE is. Brainwashing and abusive.

EMF is not rooted in a desire to "help victims". It's rooted in your hatred toward RSE for being treating you badly? I know the story David because l talked to you many years ago when EMF was in just an idea. And the story you gave me had nothing to do with RSE being a cult or your concern for the well being of others.

I ask you on EMF about your experience. I believe red flags? Not sure what thread/topic. You were not honest in your response. As a matter of fact you withheld pertinent information about your experience at RSE and why you left. That you don't know you told me about many years ago. That quite frankly had more to do with you playing/not playing music at RSE, and being rejected, than it did with RSE being a cult or your concern for others.

EMF is not because you care about others, blah blah blah. It's because you were rejected. And you set out to get even with JZ? Slander and take her down. If you had been accepted and important in the inner circle you would still be there. Because you want and need to feel important, belong. RSE isn't the only or first cult you were in. Neither worked out for you so now you have your own cult- against cults.

I have NO support for JZ and wouldn't go there if someone paid me a million dollars. However, you have your own cult going that's just as abusive and destructive and quite frankly-an extension of RSE. You're still there. And because you have not had miracles or extraordinary experiences, not only do you use it to discredit RSE but you attempt to brainwash others into thinking it's some mental health issue or "mind control" or their imagination, blah blah blah to fit YOUR agenda.

There's a reason there's so few posters on EMF and years between mindstate and previous post. Then i came along. It speaks for itself. I am also not the first person to say this about you on EMF. You really need to look in a mirror.

I feel sorry for you David. And for anyone that ventures in and tries to make a difference-because they actually do care. Your hatefulness is well documented.

It has been very trying and abusive for me. I did everything i could to throw out things to people that will know what's being said. I am relieved it's finally over. I don't need the bullshit.


DO NOT EVER CONTACT ME AGAIN!!!


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:56 pm 
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- Moderator Post -
Quote:
forever.
I know the story David because l talked to you many years ago when EMF was in just an idea. And the story you gave me had nothing to do with RSE being a cult or your concern for the well being of others.

Hi forever,
You remind me of a former EMF poster ohmygod - (Sue T) but with hobnail boots on!
The type Greg Simmons wore in the field while trampling over others to find his card :sad:

Your unfounded accusations / attacks although ‘off topic‘ will not be left unchallenged.
I will address as time permits.
For now.... this thread will remain open for debate.
Needless to say, you are no longer welcome to post on EMF :sad:

Take care and farewell 'forever'.

David.

Related:
ohmygod (Sue T)
Love and Forgivness - (EMF) Online Debate Forum Topic
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=1225&p=9442&hilit=Flute#p9442

Perhaps related:
Quote:
Yes..at the age of 22 I joined Guru Maharaji's Divine Light Mission (DLM) cult in London.
Spent 7 years in an Ashram, most happiest memories were playing the flute at Satsangs, then was the kissing the guru's feet and feeling as guilty as hell for having sexual desires.... Not about his feet I mean..:shock:
One thing my horrific childhood experiences taught me is not turn my back on such abuse.
Of course…..
A fully indoctrinated RSE student would sincerely believe even those sick, neglected or abused children created their “reality"
David:cry:
UNDERSTANDING THE NEW AGE: 1993 CHANDLER - (EMF) Online Debate Forum
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1443&p=11326&hilit=Flute#p11326






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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:54 am 
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Sorry to see forever go; too bad because these are important points. This is one of the core strategies that RSE uses to suck in and hold onto supporters. RSE cultivates the paranoia that nobody else out there is dependable and you have to be inside yourself. Then comes the I am God to reinforce that. If you're God, what would you need with anyone else? Obviously, anybody hanging around you would be out for your power. Ramtha is God too, not a threat to your power, but Ramtha's better at remembering the past and the future, and you need to remember more about not getting burned going to the light. You pay RSE for some Ramtha face time, and pay again, and again and again...

Judy knight gets your wealth and uses it to live in an overwrought mansion. You get to live in a broken down trailer with no heat.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:37 am 
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Only someone with JZ's twisted world view would find EMF abusive and 'truth ceremonies' not. I hope you find your way back to reality, compassion and love forever.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:11 pm 
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Yes, I also regret to seeing forever go. I was happy to see that a mutually acceptable framework was being hashed out and forevers willingness to participate in that. Forever, you have my contacts in the event you would like to continue our dialogue.

One thing Forever, I would not have been able to abide by your request below.

Quote:
Please don't make assumptions. it's my greatest frustration.


I say that because it would be impossible. All humanity operates on using assumptions. Obviously, (just look at the state of the world) many times one is mistaken myself included. Just a few everyday mistaken assumptions; Going to the car and assuming that you have the keys with you. Assuming the person you are meeting is going to be on time. Assuming that the person you are going to meet is going to be 15 min late because they are always late and when you arrive late you find out they were on time. Assuming that I am going to go on indefinitely with examples……

Fortunately,(and sometimes unfortunately) we do not have to consciously make assumptions. every micro second our minds are doing this for us. We make assumptions in a spatial sense about the distance between ourselves and objects. Have a look at the Brain games show on you tube, it discusses many of these assumptions the brain makes and why and how it is possible to be deceived because of this.

To bring this closer to home for you and hopefully to give you a better understanding of what might have taken place here on this thread IMHO.

Have a look at the following;

I say:
Quote:
Again, I am not saying you are doing this in a deliberate or nefarious manner, only pointing out that it is occurring and perhaps a learned behavior from RSE or somewhere else.


You say:
Quote:
P.S. I read the word nefarious some place. You are saying i am wicked?
You are making the assumption that I might have called you wicked or evil, even though my statement was the opposite. I said I was notsaying that.

David says:
Quote:
"surely you jest".
Meaning You have to be kidding me, or are you serious.

You say; and it implies you assume David is saying you are stupid.
Quote:
In other words i am stupid?


I say:
Quote:
You appear to have missed the word not, no offense intended. hence not an attack.
I make the assumption you simply made a mistake in reading. No problem, it happens to everyone at times, myself included. In fact, David did it also.

David says:
Quote:
Nor was the word "ultimately" used by journeythroughramthaland.


You Say:
Quote:
Look again. Yes it is said. :-)
By the way, had you simply put my quote here, it would have been clear that you did not intend to be talking down to David.

David says:
Quote:
I stand corrected.... :oops:
Thank you forever.
Note ,David quickly sees he has misread, thanks you for your correction and assumes your good will, not that you have called him stupid as he might have assumed.

I say all this to point out how often we all assume things and it is not the assumptions themselves, but our ability to know they can be flawed which allows us to proceed and expand our knowledge. when one does not, they trap themselves in misleading perceptions which then cause sometimes unwanted behaviors.

This brings me back to the self-betray definition issue. I think what happened is you took the 2 words and put them together and came up with a meaning that was familiar to you. I look at the word and recognize it from behavioral psychology which does not have the same meaning. In fact, I looked at my older dictionaries and the word self-betrayal is not in them. Possibly, it became part of the lexicon through the psychological theory. In any event, it would have probably been better to chose another word for our dialogue that we could both agree met the definition of what you were describing. Perhaps Self deception would work better given how we all are self deceived constantly and it doesn't have the same negative connotation as self betrayal does.



Quote:
the teachings were not abusive.
I know in the context you said this you were referring to the "teachings" you felt you received.

Quote:
Overwhelmed. It was painful. Emotionally. Because i was hearing things that i was not mentally or emotionally prepared to handle in addition to all else. Like Trance Formation...Mark Phillips..devastating emotionally and mentally to anyone with a heart. I didn't want to know the world is as wicked as it is.


This sounds to me to define abuse. I read the book Transformation and have heard them speak. this was through my researching of the RSE phenomena. if I remember right there were descriptions of the late senator Byrd carving witches faces in vaginas for controlled presidential sex slaves. :evil: It was stomach churning reading which of course would be more stomach churning if true (which it is not) :roll: but like I said before, when you are given this drivel through your direct relationship to a God,in person and being a student in His school it takes on a new importance. The fact that you didn't want it is what makes it abusive.

It sounds like in your below statement you fail to include you also got some food poisoning in your to go bag. :idea:

Quote:
I didn't learn the "teachings" at RSE-other than basics. I got it to go.



Much like your denial of possibly feeling threatened when you are feeling attacked there are vey few explanations for holding that type of viewpoint. It appears that you may be experiencing some cognitive dissonance with regard to both the "teachings" and feeling threatened.

I asked 8 of my friends if they had felt as you said,
Quote:
….insulted, undermined, ridiculed, belittled, talked down to rather than respected.
if they would feel threatened. All eight said they would (that doesn't mean life threatening) only one said there would be a situation where she would not be. when I asks what that was she said " If I knew I was not vulnerable to the attack, lets say I was protected by a force field or had super powers".

In Ramthaland, it is not allowable to feel threatened. That would mean you are not a God, have no superpowers, are not in control of everything. Only the fears instilled by Ramtha are the ones to be concerned with, i.e. Presidential sex slave,earth changes, tital waves hundreds of feet high, food shortages, economic collapse, mind eating aliens, and on and on.

If EMF were a cult or ever to become one (anything is possible) at this time I might be considered one of the inner circle. I do not always agree with David. In fact we have had our disagreements. He is as imperfect as all the rest of us. In a cult, I would not feel comfortable saying this no less printing it in the cult record. I can say this, his passion in protecting those who have gone through the RSE experience is well documented and without having walked the thousand miles in his shoes over these last many years, both pre- and post RSE I would be hesitant to come to the same assumptions you did, both about him and EMF. Again, neither are perfect.

Forever, I felt the need to address the things in your posts and the questions you have posed. You deserve that. I would also note that I have taken your quotes as well as mine out of context though I have thought to show them accurately to reflect their context, I would suggest a full reading of the thread to anyone who reads this.
As to your questions about my personal experiences I would be more then happy to elaborate privately and you have my contacts.

With regard to what happened to Bodhananda. He died in I believe it was 2002. He died virtually alone from pancreatic cancer, suffered much pain prior to and after diagnosis, felt he should have been able to cure himself to the end. I know this because my daughter was one of the few persons who had contact with him during his last days (this was after she left RSE). He was touted as an example of exemplifying an RSE student during his stay in RSE, (I would prefer to use the term used, that would describe it more accurately). He was one of the students chosen to participate in Kripners study. He was abandoned by the school and JZ in his final days, only to be brought to life in death with Ramtha claiming he was "dancing with him in the 32nd universe" I need a big barf bag!

In any case, I would like you to know that I have enjoyed our conversations and want to thank you for your participation in them.

_________________
"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."

-William Mizner


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:36 pm 
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- Moderator Comment -
I will be writing a moderator / personal post today in response to the issues and conflicts with forever.
I really appreciate everyone's patience with reaching out..
But forever has now crossed the line and worn out her welcome, access to reading EMF is still open, posting is not.

The fact forever has IGNORED my moderator questions and request
and chose flame-drama rather than honest debate has no place on EMF, not even on our RSE supporters forum.
I don’t know who forever is and I really don't care to know.
I can only speculate about her story....I do know just how twisted, misrepresented and divisive it was. :sad:
If I spoke to her regarding my passion and love of music and my disappointments during my time in RSE, it certainly
was not as forever painted it. If only she would have asked????
Again ....I will look into this more closely later.
The bottom line.... her post was designed to be divisive, nasty and flaming.
And confirmed why her thread belonged in our RSE supporters section on EMF.
I do not take these form of personal attack lightly, they are cowardly smokescreens that and have no place on EMF nor in my life

Journey....
THANK YOU for reaching out to forever,
I hope she does communicate with you privately.
'Hope springs eternal'... hope that's not a 'Thought-terminating cliché :-)
forever is sincere, but demonstrating very little distance from the arrogant and deluded mindset of blindsided and confused RSE members.
This cannot be allowed to continue unchecked and unchallenged if EMF is to remain a safe environment for everyone.

David



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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:18 pm 
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EMF is not because you care about others, blah blah blah.

There is an arrogance and meaness to rse die hards that literally takes your breath away, I can only say thankyou David for being there when I was drowning in despair and felt I would surely lose my mind, you and others threw me a lifeline when I needed it most and I will never forget that. It's been a long process and I've a long way to go, only the other day I noticed I had been walking my dog with a blue star in my pocket for protection, sure I'm responsible for myself in theory, however my critical mind is still impaired and the EMF site helps me to balance the bullshit that would possibly go unnoticed if it wasn't for the questions and answers I find so helpful on this site. I had noticed that I was avoiding most of the subjects FOREVER had posted and I didn't know why, I'm glad I read this one, who knows maybe my critical thinking is returning because what I was reading had a negative effect and only when I read what others had posted did I feel the confusion lifting.
I feel a weight has lifted because I have been wanting to post on several topics but felt wary, now I know why.

Carol


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:58 am 
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- Moderator post -

Thank you Carol, everyone,

Although EMF has its limitations and challenges, its always heartening to hear that we do make a positive difference
and offer a lifeline helping pull RSE survivors out of JZk's RSE quagmire.

Without endless rehashing the conflict with forever that resulted my moving her thread topic over to our RSE supporters forum,
Then... escalated into awful personal attacks and untrue accusations :-? that resulted in my choice to block forever from posting.
This need not remain permanent, forever still has access to read EMF.
Hopefully in time forever will come to understand my reasoning and judgment as a moderator.
But this post is more to share with everyone and to discuses/debate the issues further... if need be.
Quote:
Journey:
Yes, I also regret to seeing forever go. I was happy to see that a mutually acceptable framework was being hashed out and forevers willingness to participate in that.

Unfortunately forevers pattern of ignoring moderator request and respectful questions showed little regard for our EMF guidelines and willingness to debate directly her topic thread.
See (moderator post Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:07 am)
in response to forevers statement the 'RSE
Quote:
''teachings' are not abusive”
This had become the norm to throw out loaded statements -> 'thought-terminating clichés' < that completely derail a topic thread with countless off-topic questions, accusations and statements.
Again and again... this demonstrated neither care nor understanding for our EMF rules, while bordering on contempt, Flaming and discourtesy.
Anyone making supportive based statements for RSE on EMF, such as
Quote:
forever-
“And it cannot be blamed on the teachings because it is NOT what's taught. And imo is not the result of "brainwashing/mind control etc.

When a poster voices support for RSE those statements will be moved to the RSE supporters forum. Especially when moderator requests for clarification is ignored. Remember that nothing has been deleted just moved, and could be just as easily moved again.
Quote:
** Rules For Posting **
The RSE supporters debate forum is the ONLY place on EMF where supportive based posts regarding the philosophies and concepts of RSE JZK/Ramtha will be tolerated.
This means that all posts that cast a supportive viewpoint of the RSE doctrines and practices will be moved to the RSE supporters forum without notice.
JZ Knight/Ramtha quotes may be deleted without notice.
EMF POSTING GUIDELINES Registration Agreement Terms - The EnlightenMeFree (EMF) The RSE "supporters" debate forum
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3

Quote:
forever -
“EMF is not rooted in a desire to "help victims". It's rooted in your hatred toward RSE for being treating you badly? I know the story David because l talked to you many years ago when EMF was in just an idea. And the story you gave me had nothing to do with RSE being a cult or your concern for the well being of others."

"I ask you on EMF about your experience. I believe red flags? Not sure what thread/topic. You were not honest in your response. As a matter of fact you withheld pertinent information about your experience at RSE and why you left. That you don't know you told me about many years ago. That quite frankly had more to do with you playing/not playing music at RSE, and being rejected, than it did with RSE being a cult or your concern for others."

A classic hit and run RSE tactic that I am more than willing to address head-on with forever.
Why not just ask me...What pertinent information about my experience at RSE do you think I am withholding? :idea:

I had several HORRIBLE experiences at RSE regarding music. I love music and music composing. Music became a powerful healing force in my RSE recovery process. I often wondered why 'Ramtha' had not included musical instrument to be stored away in our bunkers alongside Food, Guns and ammunition? but that's for another thread.
I will quickly related this story... perhaps this in part is what I shared with forever?
But without her explaining what the hell she is referring too, and what year I met her? how can I possibly defend myself and explain to forever her totally twisted viewpoint is WRONG and bordering on slander?
Up until RSE circa 1998-9 I still held some hope / faith that ‘Ramtha’ was real and RSE a ‘legitimate’ spiritual school.
I was not ready to face the truth.
Although I started RSE in 1989 and quit in 1996, it was my intention to return someday, but given more time and distance I became aware just how destructive RSE had been in my life. By that time I had created a small music studio in a wee trailer. I was friends with Sammy Fields ‘Forever Fields) a big time music producer from NY for the likes of Barbra Streisand and Stevie Wonder. Anyway, In 1998 I was invited by my friend RB (an wealthy RSE insider) if I would like to put organize a band and music and play at an RSE wine ceremony celebrating JZ Knights Birthday?This was to be a huge event, all expense paid held in the tank field.
It did not matter I was not current. I reasoned…OK I do not like JZ Knight, but I will do this to thank her for channeling my teacher ‘Ramtha’.
All good so far… weeks of rehearsals, musicians, PA rentals, lights…logistics…total dedication.
I also hoped this could wash away all my doubts about RSE and Ramtha.
What took place during that event just about broke my heart, and finally woke me up to that fact JZ Knight was at best, suffering from ‘chronic narcissistic personality disorder’ or, at worst a religious Sociopathic madwoman :sad:
ether way.... I woke up to the fact that ‘Ramtha was a cruel fraud.. it was the greatest wakeup call and blow to my soul and spirit
Perhaps... I will described what took place during that event in a future post.
certainly I was ANGRY AS HELL and shattered by the experience.
Yes.. at the time this had nothing to do with RSE being a cult nor my concern for the well being of others to setup EMF.
That came seven years later. During the intervening time it was enough to process and clean out the RSE madness
while quietly asking others to question what RSE was really achieving in their lives.
Quote:
forever- But you are guilty of the very things you say RSE is. Brainwashing and abusive.
Your hatefulness is well documented.

When that which we love is revealed to be an awful fraud, It’s understandable the messenger will be accused as hateful and deceptive. However....I have endeavored to walk with honor since leaving RSE.
We all stumble and fall at times and have hurt others in the process.
“At the end of the day what we are is not answered in words, but by our actions in life.
I hope this helps everyone’s understanding...
Feel free to share and question... :idea:

OK.. back to forevers topic thread ...At the end of the day we are all responsible for self.

David




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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:19 am 
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Quote:
Perhaps... I will described what took place during that event in a future post.
certainly I was ANGRY AS HELL and shattered by the experience


Please share this experience....


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:16 pm 
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Hi Shocked,

Sure...

Just need a little time to separate and process that awful exchange with forever.
I'll post later this week my recollections of that 'JZK Birthday event on its own new thread...:idea:

David

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:16 am 
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I just want to say, thank you for starting EMF it has been a great help to me!!!!


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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:56 pm 
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Quote:
Please share this experience....

Here ya go Shocked...
Shattered by the experience: JZK's birthday celebration RSE - (EMF) Online Debate Forum
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2624&p=18847#p18847

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:37 pm 
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Forever, thanks for sharing. I remember reading some earlier posts when you discussed your pre-R$E days. You've had some unique circumstances in your life and sorry for being presumptuous but it feels like you're trying to process your history and find out who you are and what you believe. That's understandable and hopefully EMF is helping.

A few things: Ramtha isn't real. Channeling isn't real. R$E is BS and is designed for the sole purpose for JZ to make money and attain praise. A lot of people have been verbally and physically abused over the years. On example is EMF member Vanilla. She was personally ripped apart by JZ pretending to be Ramtha at an event.

Rely on yourself but NOT in the way R$E says. Don't think it then believe things are going to magically happen. That's childish. Think it then do it. Rely on your family and friends too. They love you.

Journey, I normally hate signatures because they're usually preachy but I love yours:

"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."
-William Mizner

"I try to respect faith but it's rarely worthy. Skepticism gets you an education."
-Seriously


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