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never did labyrinth......but did fieldwork, c and e, candle focus, etc.........
my time at the ranch changed my life for the better and i had wanted to go back since then.......well i am here now and i dont know anymore
somehow somewhere something has changed......the message has changed from being about what i know innately about me to what is going on outside of me and how i am best to handle this...........
i went from understanding myself and at least working on that and getting there to being all f'd up..............listening to someone else tell me what i had to do to survive..............
ya, i am asking some questions........taking in some answers and sifting through them and then finding me and my own answers in the process........
this teacher.............is ***NOT*** the same entity i had the fortune to find in some of the oldest teachings out there...............
my GOD..............MY GOD.........I WOULD NEVER EVER EVER have let a child cry in my presence or an adult scream from pain or anyone needing assistance be ignored.................***NOT*** in my presence.........EVER
THROW ME OUT...i dont care.........i KNOW who i am.........
i MISS my teacher...........this is not HIM
AND i feel for all of you. so many GOOD KIND SMART people do not gravitate to an entity UNLESS he is REAL............RAMTHA WAS............i am not sure where he went...........but i am grateful i had his presence for a time in my life.........and i am sad he is gone and that whatever is taking over is NOT him.........
i went to ONE retreat.............the retreat was my experience of myself........and that was FANTASTIC.........although challenging.........
RAMTHA was drunk, spitting everywhere, vulgar.........not much of what i expected and so i and others questioned it then. we were told by father that if we found issue with his behavior it was something inside of us that was the issue.....
i contemplated it....but never resolved it for myself..............
still.............the school, the oldest teachings from the 70s 80s.........brought me to the school..........where i found ME
ramtha is real but in my feelin he has left..........a long time ago............and what we have now is I DONT KNOW WHAT
i went to the school about five or six years ago now.......i moved here, left my husband, have my kids, to be closer to 'like minded' people........luckily i am ........but it is not in the school which is where i had originally thought it would be
and still, i REFUSE to trash all of it..........BECAUSE i found such LOVE within so much of it........the original teachings...........my GOD.........MY GOD.......IT IS WHAT BROUGHT ALL OF US HERE INITIALLY and i REFUSE TO LET GO OF THAT
not that i need ramtha or anyone else to guide me ........thats not it.........i am just finding myself so OVERWHELMINGLY SAD...............
for obvious reasons
the reasons that we are all here
i just refuse to let go of the BEAUTY THAT BROUGHT ME HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE
and wanting to know
My heart really goes out to you and, as you say, there are many "good, kind, smart people" on this site. All are reflecting a very important aspect of truth, from Kensho Lynd's beautiful, lucid and loving posts to Sad Grandfather's very down to earth and common-sense approach, even if a lot of what he says reflects the pain that he feels at the loss of his family to RSE. Everyone of us care about 'truth' as it is from our own points of view. And we care very much about other people. We are all 'masters' of our own perspective, and reflections of truth in its many forms.
Very sadly, there are some people in the world who recognize certain 'truths' and see ways of using them to take advantage of others. JZ Knight is one of those people. She is a person who has read from many sources of 'spiritual enlightenment'. Even in the early days, there is evidence that she had read from many books, and had access to other sources with regard to 'spiritual' ideas and truths. By way of these she was able to invent a 'personality' called 'Ramtha', who would be able to draw people in by way of these truths which had been garnered from other sources, and present this 'entity' as being a true master of enlightened wisdom.
I believe that it is possible to recognize certain truths when we hear them, as they resonate in our hearts. However, the 'wisdom of Ramtha' was purloined from many other sources. JZ Knight gathered a great many people into her net, even the early dys, by way of the device called 'Ramtha's wisdom' (and it is a device), all of whom had to pay money for it. As time went by, she became more and more greedy, more and more extreme, and more and more tyrannical, as she realized that she could control, and extort a great deal of money from people by way of the 'teachings' of Ramtha. She proceeded to do just that, and Ramtha's message, along with the methods used to draw people in and keep them there, changed. It became an indoctrination, utilising very unpleasant and dangerous methods of mind control, which are perpetrated today. The propoganda publicized by JZ presents a very attractive picture and ideal to many people, and they are drawn in by it.
There is no 'master' living at RSE, and the likelihood that there ever was really doesn't exist. The master you are looking for resides, and has always resided, in your own heart. It's great to hang onto that thought and realize that everything of value you really learnt was from your own 'inner-self'.
With loving concern
Many of us here have been 'where' you are now Iam as you extricate yourself from the jzkinc sugarcoated ball of entangled truth and caca. As you I was once certain that there had been and now wasn't a ramtha -- until I listened beyond the words/concepts/themes and finally heard the pattern of delivery unchanged from day one.
It seems to me that we humans not only tend to 'shoot the messenger', as often as not we tend to worship the messenger/give credit for the message to the deliverer -- and either way distract ourselves from truly hearing the message!
There has been much discussion on this board whether ramtha is was isn't... ... ... And, in fact, some people who absolutely believe there was a Ramtha have stopped participating on this message board because they felt unwelcome. It seems to me that what is far more significant and relevant is where you are now - learning to trust yourself in a new way, defining and affirming for yourself how you want to live your life. Whether or not there is was isn't a ramtha, we were duped, manipulated, used, and to some degree or another brain washed by whoever was standing before us - to have awakened out of the jzk inc nightmare is a tribute to Whatever the Truth that we finally heard and lifted us out of the muck and mire.
(And here's an irony for you - there are 'like minded people' wherever we are -- and they are there where ever you left from to find some.)
your expressed 'confusion' is eloquently if so personally stated. It reflects what so many experienced, as you can tell from EMF posts, with Ramtha. But this is the most common reaction ex-members of most cults have--"It was so beautiful [for me] in the beginning"
No one would join a lousy cult, believe me, because the inner self experiences something else: a fascinating group of seekers with their hearts on the goal of self-realization and an eccentric if challenging leader or "god' who seems to speak to your very soul through a message of "you can do it", the "power is within you" and "our techniques are proven to work".
Exciting stuff at first. Worth trying, we tell ourselves.
In our work with ex-members my colleagues call this "bait and switch."
You may not see this yet, or may never choose to, but I noted that the "switch" was in the "witch" from the begining, even before Ramtha 'merged' with JZ's presentation to the world in early 1980s as on tv with Merve Griffin. Of course I had the advantage of sorting through the background or foundation of what creates a Ramtha years before Ramtha became known to the public. Channeling itself can create an insidious formation that traps the channeler into his/her own limited mind and character attributes which emerge as time goes on within the feedback loop on stage in cult theater--
there are no "outside" checks and balances allowed in, once a closed system forms, and this creates what one scholar calls "Bounded Choice."
eg, JZ is an alcoholic, so Ramtha was always an alcoholic [with some sober time, perhaps].
JZ never grasped brain and hormone science, so ramtha never did either.
In any case, as AD noted, this is less about whether R was ever real than about where you are now and how you personally will change as you/we sort this out. Thank you for coming aboard!
wow you dont know me at allex wrote:i guess you can figure this out. only one retreat and you leave your familie? maybe you should look for more grounding things in your life before you try to figure out if jz chanelling or does what. trust yourself. good luck.
this is what u think....wow
i have tried posting and keep getting kicked back out so this is frustrating to say the least
no words from me now just that i thank everyone else for their input......and i say that ex----u dont know my situation and this is not at all what u think and i am sorry u assume what u do
Thanks, Iamgod17, for the clarification. One event was just the start.
What is important to know is what Knight and the, "Ramtha," character say is generally purloined from many sources. Knight is an extremely avid reader and indeed has interest in quantum physics, psychology, religion and many other subjects. She's renown for having a virtual photographic memory, but that doesn't mean she truly knows and integrates, but rather parrots back what she reads. That is probably why her quantum physics lessons are so confused and don't mesh with what you can observe for yourself about how the universe works. Knight is also short on checking facts, such as when she prominent featured the untrue History Channel story of allegedly reincarnated WW-II pilot, "James 3." Knight has a great stage presence and can spit back (literally) others' knowledge quite effectively. Even the important white book, Ramtha, is actually written for Knight by Steven Weinberg. Though Weinberg's attribution has been expunged in later editions, you can still find the original edition listed on Amazon.com.
If you can get it, (and I have been able to yet), Vera Stanley Alder's book, From the Mundane to the Magnificent, has many passages that are reportedly almost verbatim plagiarized by Knight and touted by Knight as exclusive original gnostic information. Examples are blue body, energy bands, webs, shrinking to an atom and lots of other concepts. This was extensively discussed in 2006. Please refer to this Factnet discussion: http://www.factnet.org/vbforum/archive/ ... -9122.html You'll see parallels to what is being said here now. It is really questionable just how exclusive and original the, "Ramtha," teachings are. You may have found something beautiful and spiritual at the RSE ranch, but you may well have been able to do it in other ways that don't require, "Ramtha."
I am convinced anything allegedly RSE gnostic you can get other places, like your public library, for considerably less expense. Of course, you won't get the powerful group dynamic of physically being in an RSE class and the teaching packaged and produced a la Knight. No mind control, vulgar, "Ramtha," character or emotional abuse either.
Best wishes for a fulfilled, open life and enlightenment to you.
Saying I am God is like saying I am the Universe only more spiritual---it has no actual meaning, no risk, because it reiterates an old saw among occultists who like to say "as above, so below". But it really borrows from Vedantic philsophy that states Atman and Brahman are "one" and the same thing. Shirley was comically "correct" but hardly enlightened if we consider what she taught at her subsequent spiritual workshops on her "teaching" tour.
Saying "I am a god" is more specific and it implies superhuman powers, like saying I am Superman, a Devil, or a half-god like Heracles. We can test that claim: prove it! Cannot test "I am God" because it can mean anything and nothing at all because God as God, I Am That Am, is the ineffable and the 'unknowable' according to most traditions: Advaita, Jewish, Buddhist, Christian mystical....
iamgod17...hope you do not mind this diversion, but this is how my mind works
Ramtha was never there. Channeling has taken a tolll on Jz's body. Her friends dying around her made her depressed. Her men who cheat on her or go gay, have left her bitter. She has found energy in drugs, and energy drinks, injections and medication for depression. That stuff makes you lose your mind, and black out and start shocking everyone.
Jz might have been a beautiful bs-er when her mind was a little clear and guilt wasnt so bad.
THE TEACHINGS WERE NEVER KNOWLEDGE> just poetry and made up lies. Copied from metaphysical novels.
You say, well listen to the message...what message? That you can have anything you want by just writing it on a card? That there is no good and evil? That your thoughts create reality?
How has that worked out for the thousands of students stuck in Yelm still under 30 grand a year for 20 years.
if anyone has insight as to how to avoid this, would be most welcome...........
now ex...thank u for your story and for understanding that u dont know me
my first retreat helped ME to find ME
i left my husband.......bad situation......verbal abuse into physical...i took care of so much.....no partner...problems.....
we outgrew one another.
the wise see that and try to build bridges to friendship
i will never trash someone i loved.........it would make me a fool and i am not about that but it was time to let go
i love ramthas older teachings but that is me. i will never change how i feel about that.
what i see now is not the same. and so i question things
to everyone else who has posted...thank you
i love change.
to me that is evolution and so something i strive for
i do believe we are god and thus a oneness and yet individual.
it is that appreciation of self, FIRST, and then of others that to me bring about evolution.
i despise preachers. i have always felt that ones answers come from within self
Yes, frustrating if you're writing a posting that takes a long time; hit submit and you lose what you wrote. What I started doing is to use Notepad (TextEdit on a Macintosh) to compse my text, then I copy and paste my text into the EMF web page.
You can also highlight your entire posting, right-click copy just before you click submit. If you have to sign back in, then you can easily paste what you typed after you sign in.
I like your attitude and understand your desire to NOT trash the beauty you got there
I feel the same and I just call it ''my own'' now
Lots of love to you
I sincerely appreciate you being here iamgod17, and I am grateful to know that you at least are questioning some of what JZ Knight is doing. I look forward to your posts in the future, and I wish you the best.
i dont believe in a black/white ramtha/jz at all....dont know if i ever will. and i apologize up front if that is not what u r saying.
i do believe ramtha exists...or rather an entity does in this process of jz and ramtha
i still listen to teachings..older ones...and to me there is no question these are NOT jz
maybe i have more to listen to...maybe i have more to experience...but for now, it is what it is
there is something DIFFERENT about the older teachings....than what we have now. and i am continuing to analyze and hear it for myself
again, i have always believed and still do, that self is the only answer for self
so while i still question.......and have many questions to be sure........i am NOT willing to believe in ANYTHING at this point....be it ramtha jz or what someone is saying here..
i do value what all of you have to offer and i look forward to more offerings........
i would like to hear about more specific experiences...they mean a lot to me..as my own experience does
so tell me more
There was a time that I believed as you do now, that 'ramtha' was real, and JZ Knight was a channel, but always in the back of my mind there was a little voice, or feeling that was telling me something wasn't right and just didn't add up. Mostly, it was because I had a significant other involved and many friends involved at rse that kept me there and believing the way I did for as long as I did. But that little voice and feeling I had kept growing from my very first contact with rse/jz material. It is very common for veteran members of rse, and jz herself to explain away this doubt, this little feeling I had, to convince people to ignore their critical thought processes, and it was these, at the time, convincing explanations (that is your monkey mind), etc., that kept me from taking an honest evaluation of what I had gotten myself involved with. When I first became involved, right off the bat, my bullshit meter was beeping loud and clear to the entire idea of channeling and 'ramtha', and it took years of people trying to convince me that this doubt was just my monkey mind, and that my monkey mind wanted me to die, that allowed me to be accepting of more and more outrageous and outlandish ideas.(you are god, reptilians, gray men, infared beings, jz channeling, the wine, smoking, cursing, prozac, twinkies, the days to come, prophesies, etc. etc. etc.) But after seeing JZ pretending to be 'ramtha' for about the hundredth time, all of my doubts finally outweighed ignoring the obvious discrepancies. I had seen JZ as herself many many times, both in person and in interviews, etc. and I had seen her pretending to be 'ramtha' many more than that. That final event, about 2 and a half years ago, I had decided to look as honestly as I ever had, and started listening to the critical part of my brain that deciphers reality from fantasy and fact from fiction. The contradictions were too numerous to ignore. The more I watched her on that stage pretending to be 'ramtha', the more of JZ I saw, how she spoke, her cadence, her annunciations, her mispronounced words, her body language, the whole package, and in that moment, that honest moment of watching her with an open mind, and an honest assessment, I saw through the entire charade, she was just putting on an act. I had finally come to the realization that she was faking, pretending, and lying. It was an epiphany for me, a freedom from the lie I had been living for way too many years, and in that moment, I was free. I finally was free to think as I wish, instead of being a parrot of everything 'ramtha', I had returned to the person who didn't take things as face value, and had left the person who was easily convinced into unproven, undocumented, most times deceitful claims, by being misled by JZ.
Did JZ say beautiful things at times while pretending to be 'ramtha'? Of course, but so did Jim Jones, and David Koresh, and Pol Pot and many other devious sociopaths.
What has been more helpful for me since me seeing the truth of who JZ Knight really is, is this site. EMF, through the shared experience of everyone involved here, laying out their stories, has been the healing process for me. With the knowledge that I am not alone in the complete betrayal by JZ, and the compassionate understanding of people who saw the light long before I did, I have reclaimed my life. Once again, I can live without the giant weight of fear that JZ places around every new recruits neck, and I don't have to be consumed with such irrational, obviously unproven, outlandish claims, or live my life in accordance with JZ's stricture of control and manipulation. I don't have to be tied down or held back by all of her 'ramthisms', those contrived slogans or cunningly deceptive catch phrases meant to subjugate those who repeat them to a lifetime of subordination in JZ's quagmire.
It is a beautiful thing to have you, and several others on the site now, beginning to question JZ Knight, and the integrity of her 'ramtha' character, and I desire with all my heart that you all will see what I've seen.
But I blamed that part of me, for taking away the magic, and for making Ramtha not real.
I felt if I believed in Ramtha , he would then be real.
I had to erase doubt. Just like most cults make you do.