EMF dirty laundry

[WofthesunEofthemoon]

We really need to do this, folks. We are turning into JZ & Co, and who wants to do that?

For my part, "You can leave the devil my kind regards, But I never cheat at cards". And I never do. But we need to listen to people, folks. However hard it is; however much we think they remind us of JZ. (You can be sure that I will never do that, as I have never, ever had anything to do with her.)

However, we are all in this together. We are all for one, and one for all, and the moment we forget that....................?

I will leave you all to fill in the gaps.


W.E.

[David McCarthy]

Dear WofthesunEofthemoon and everyone..
There are wounded posters that feel deeply hurt by the moderators hands and AD60 is one of them.
I think its really important for anyone "including the "I create my reality, so did you..so get over it" posters" to share their point of view on EMF
but this must be within our EMF posting rules..Yes we do have rules….
From our past and painful experience of moderating EMF we have very little wiggle room on this.
We have been and will be taken advantage of if we do not stand firm on this issue
even if that standing firm means losing EMF supporters and called nasty names..
Unfortunately this is precisely what has happened...

Let’s see if we can cleanup our EMF dirty laundry and bypass the negative PM backlash.

David.

- EMF POSTING GUIDELINES: Please Read
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3&p=3#p3

[Lost in Space]

Perhaps some questioning people who are leaving RSE or considering it, or who still keep some of the ideas of RSE or consider that some of it was worthwhile could figure out a way to ask their questions in such a way that people who are sensitized to the school and all its works would not get 'set off'. And perhaps newly exiting students would not feel on the defensive when told that they are quoting JZ....if we could all develop thicker skins, and be able to agree to disagree without fear, that would be wonderful. In an ideal world....I don't know that it's reasonable to expect these things from either side. And if we all have to be so careful, maybe this site will be less honest; less wholesome.
I don't want to argue with the moderators, however, I have observed that many posters quote JZ/R to illustrate their NEGATIVE view of the school, and it's just objected to when anyone has anything POSITIVE to say about any aspect of it. And it seems to me that it would be natural for someone who has just left RSE to want believe that some part of their experience there was worthwhile.
Like W.E. I have never been an RSE student, and I usually defer to members of EMF who have been. In the case of some recent posts, what I see as an ousider is people struggling to put their (past) membership in perspective, and people who are definitely and finally out trying really hard to hasten the process of total disengagement - not always gently.

[David McCarthy]

Thank you Lost in Space

I have observed that many posters quote JZ/R to illustrate their NEGATIVE view of the school,

This is understandable and a necessary process in breaking the RSE chains.
But it gets very tricky for the mods when a poster denounces JZ Knight but still "loves" the teachings and or their teacher "Ramtha" circa 1984-1992...Etc
They belong posting on the RSE supporter’s forum nowhere else.
It gets even more challenging for the mods and EMF members when a poster takes a happy lovey dovey trip down the RSE memory lane while "saintly" pointing out the positive and negatives of their RSE tenure,.BUT...
All the while hiding behind PMs posting comments such as “stop being such victims... you made your choices... no one held a gun to you head…. so get on with your life” and be happy... .
Then we have situation where a long time poster "and personal friend" like AD60 in supporting a new poster that jumps the EMF guideline rails who then becomes very hostile to the moderator in a show of solidarity with that new poster who took offence to being moderated,
This leaves a confusing mess on EMF after the new posters may have simply moved on from that particular issue with the mods or EMF ..
Perhaps I had no cause and was too harsh in moderating my friend AD60?
I sincerely do not think so...
and I’m sorry that AD60 feels so hurt from "in my opinion" standing strong as a moderator and protecting EMF and seemingly weak as a friend.
I hope I’m making sense here ....

David

[WofthesunEofthemoon]

Yes, you are making sense here, David. You are also being very naughty. It is not the fact that AD60 is your friend that you should have evaluated her so called 'flaming' posting more carefully, and, perhaps pm'd her before blasting her out of the water. It is the fact that here is a member (not necessarily a friend), who has posted since the incipience of emf in a way that can only be described as supportive of the moderation, and never in a flaming manner. And that is saying the very least of it. I have been through ALL of those old postings, David, and I know that of which I speak.

Whether you like it, or not, you owe her an apology! And, believe you me, there were no pm's, no emails, nor any other stuff between AD60 and myself before I came to that conclusion. These are the facts, so please don't 'go there' just to support your own argument. It dishonours both of us.

Yes, sure, there is a confusing mess after a couple of newbies start a whole of lot of RSE 'lovey-dovey - let's create our reality' type stuff. Not something I would want to become involved in, myself; but there is no accounting for taste. And you have to understand that Justtruth was just very new out of the RSE mindset, David, and then she was beset by Indigo. What more would you expect? Not only that, but Justtruth had enough arrogance to spare to start telling Freemysoul off. Very annoying, I grant you. But, hardly the end of the world, and nothing more than I am doing now. Tell you what, I'd be pretty good at telling the whole world off, if I got the chance, so nothing new there.

Take it from a friend

W.E

[Lost in Space]

Showing considerable restraint out of respect:
David, what I am gathering from the whole fiasco is that anyone who posts anything about their RSE experience that could be considered at all positive will automatically be placed in the RSE supporters forum, even if they have made it clear for years that they no longer belong, and have at the same time presented the flip side, also citing things they assuredly do not miss about the school.
And anyone who takes a neutral or balanced tone will find that instead of having their actual posts responded to, some small thing they said will be seized upon and magnified, or used as a platform from which some EMFer can highlight the very worst parts of their experience.
And I agree with W.E., that such a vexatious personal (private) message as you've quoted having received would best be responded to in an answering personal (private) message.
I am sure that you moderators get a lot of flack in personal messages, from troubled or offended or misguided people, but does that justify throwing somebody who, arguably, is fragile to the lions?

[David McCarthy]

Lost in Space

And I agree with W.E., that such a vexatious personal (private) message as you've quoted having received would best be responded to in an answering personal (private) message

Again I agree..but what of the "hit and run posters" who hit and run on the PM while posters are having chummy chats oblivious of true standing of who they are talking to? Are you fine with the moderators to stay silent ...perhaps to keep intact the integrity of the EMF PM system?
This is what has taken place, so I say no.... what would you do in such circumstances?
WofthesunEofthemoon
Your are still convinced that it is I that runs EMF insomuch as having the last word and in doing so EMF has a fundamental flaw/weakness with overtones of a JZ Knight/RSE dictatorship...
Yes, No? I have done my best to allay your concerns in my posts ... what will convince you otherwise?
What safeguards on EMF would you like to see set in place we don’t otherwise have?
An apology to AD60? this I do not feel is warranted.

And anyone who takes a neutral or balanced tone will find that instead of having their actual posts responded to....

I disagree. Perhaps one persons view of a neutral and balanced tone may read unbalanced and biased to another poster or the moderator.
First and foremost... WE do not want to see “supportive RSE Ramtha quotes anywhere but on the RSE supporter forum.
And then it is only posted for reason of debate and in that it will come under fire.
Is it not enough to allow these mind @#@$%^& "Ramtha" quotes air on EMF to begin with?

Showing considerable restraint out of respect:

EMF does not request anyone to respect anothers opinion but rather repectfully post whatever opinion they may have without restraint....but within our EMF rules for posting..

And I agree with W.E., that such a vexatious personal (private) message as you've quoted having received would best be responded to in an answering personal (private) message

Back on this PM issue...
it’s very unfortunate that AD60 decided not to do so... but wrote a blistering personal attack directed at an EMF moderator
just after I requested to everyone to stop with such attacks.
Please go to that thread and read carefully what transpired if you doubt what I say.
What am I missing here?

Let’s reach for our mending fences but not to gloss over how they got to be broken.
Thanks for you input everyone..

David

[WofthesunEofthemoon]

David, today is my 64th birthday. Not the birthday that I have every month, but my real birthday. Please, everybody, say "Happy Birthday, Athena", to me. And I will thank you all.

Please, let's all work to put this thing right.

W.E.

[Lost in Space]

Thanks, David, for clarifying things.
The respect I spoke of was not for your opinion, per se, it was for you as a person and for the other moderators, and for the purpose of EMF.

[Lost in Space]

Happy Birthday, W.E. - Athena!

[WofthesunEofthemoon]

Thank you, LiS. You are the first person to give me your wishes and I do appreciate them. I hope the same for your next birthday.

Luv Athena

[David McCarthy]

"Happy Birthday, Athena",
Hope you had a wonderful day...

David

[WofthesunEofthemoon]

Thank you, David.

[Another Dimension60]

I chose not to post prior to today – because I didn’t want to defend or attack or be reactive; because what I saw happening with ‘just’ and indigo led me to feel like I was ‘between a rock and a hard place’/ an impossible position that no matter what I said, and no matter my intention, it would be mis/un-heard, attacked and I would hear again how important and difficult it is to protect emf. The absurdities that justtruth was attacked for expressing concern for the lives of people she knows still under jz’s spell; and that indigo should be so continuously and unnecessarily attacked ‘posthumously’/after she left emf as graciously as possible(and no matter what she said in what she intended to be private communication) – not only sickened and saddened me, they were also evidence that gave me no reason to believe that anything I said would be heard. I post now because justtruth has been soo very gracious in thanking emf; because wolf has been so upfront in expressing concerns for emf, as well as support for me, and I didn’t want either to think I am ungrateful either for emf, or their posts.
There was never a question by me, or anyone else, that it is the moderators responsibility to ‘protect’ emf from proselytizers of any kind, including and particularly for jzk inc.’s ramtha; there was never a question that ‘flaming’ and vitriol be allowed to go unchecked; there was never a question that the moderators have a difficult task, nor question of their sincerity.
Reading the responses to justtruth shocked and stunned and confused and saddened and upset me – and I do believe that my posts clearly expressed my confusion – along with appreciation for the moderators. I came humbled, on my knees with hands out asking for clarification why someone was being so attacked. Perhaps I misused the word ‘hate’ in expressing concern and confusion re free’s posts – to me, it was clear that free is a passionate man, and that he was probably as passionate for RSE/Ramtha as he is now against it. And I can’t help it if his tirades/intense anger re jz reminded me of her tirades/intense anger against the Christian Church – accurate in many ways, and intense enough that even if she didn’t use the word hate, it’s obvious there was no love there. That’s not an attack, simply a personal observation. Nevertheless, I misused the word hate in my statements regarding ‘free’s’ feelings re jz. My intent was not to attack ‘free’ – only to express confusion as to why it was suddenly ok for moderators to have an opinion but not a poster; why it was ok for ‘free’ to disagree with 'just' but not for ‘just’ to disagree with him; why it was ok for ‘free’ to say he didn’t hate/dislike/whatever appropriate word for lack of positive regard for ‘just’, but not ok for ’just' to not hate jz or ‘free’…. Still confusing for me.
And I really don’t want to have a line by line debate. As ‘free’ has done, I apologize for the what I consider misunderstanding of what I said – my intent was not to attack – and if it appeared to attack, again, I can at best apologize – knowing, as so often stated on emf, I cannot unconvince the convinced. If David reads what I wrote as flaming and vitriol, there’s no way I can change his mind.
My point throughout my posts – how do we deal with what appears to be pro-ramtha or ‘flaming’ posts. It is my perspective that neither justtruth nor Indigo nor I were heard. Particularly justtruth – it became like a Laurel and Hardy routine – “Whos on first, Whats on second” (for those who don’t know, Laurel and Hardy are a very old American comedy team - - their ‘bit’ can be found on google video search – just to add a little lightness/humor to this nightmare). No matter what ‘just’ said the response was usually another proclamation regarding the moderators need to protect emf and/or how awful jzk is. Over and over…. no matter what ‘just’ said – it appeared that the moderators were so righteously right in their perspectives they became incapable of hearing what was being said…. In my opinion, the whole business with justtruth could have been handled in a simple inquiring email – worked for me; instead I witnessed what appeared to me to be a blood lust feeding frenzy/ an hysteria of paranoid perceived attack and mob/mod rule riot style reactions. And the same with me – whether David knows me or not, friend or not, a simple email of inquiry could have handled the whole thing. --- even if at worst the questionable posts were removed until clarification.
Although my posts have been described as defending justtruth, my concerns run beyond the individual to the principles by which emf is being run. For as much as the words compassion and kindness and understanding and patience were used, there was none in application/in reaction to some people,- in my opinion, my perspective.
Again, the need to protect emf has never been in question – it is the how it is defended that has been upsetting. I think my June 15th post explained my concerns –--- I remain saddened beyond words at what I’ve seen happen here. That David is so certain of his perspective regarding my posts and the way the posts with ‘just’ and indigo and I have been handled, confirms the reasons for my grieving. Please folks – this is not a ‘hit and run’ post - - in a sense I was asked to comment – I have – essentially I’ve reiterated what I posted previously. There really is nothing more I can say – David/emf and I have differing perspectives. Apparently the philosophy/sincere belief of emf/moderators is to attack first and not listen to response from anyone they have decided is pro-ramtha. I disagree with that approach, and it is therefore inappropriate for me to continue to participate.

[David McCarthy]

Dear Another Dimension60

There really is nothing more I can say – David/emf and I have differing perspectives. Apparently the philosophy/sincere belief of emf/moderators is to attack first and not listen to response from anyone they have decided is pro-ramtha. I disagree with that approach, and it is therefore inappropriate for me to continue to participate.

I understand why you view me and EMF in such a light and I appreciate your sincere efforts to explain how you came to this disturbing and painful conclusion.
Sadly... I very much disagree with your above summations of these past events on EMF and likewise see no point in our hashing over and over the same posts in defense of our actions and understandings.

I wish you everything that is wonderful in life and please know you are welcome to participate again on EMF anytime you choose.
Thank you for your support of EMF all these years’

Good luck and farewell.....

David

[true blue]

ok in total sincerity please ad60 continue to post

happy birthday athena

i was in a group doing bush regenaration when the wheels fell off a facilitator arrived and told the group about the four stages of community

1 euphoria- a common goal is mentioned and everyone is extremely happy and has their own idea on how to go about it

2chaos- the community starts to do but everyone is pulling in slightly different directions

3forget what he called it but f@@k you - this is the stage where most communities collapse everyone arguing hes dumb she is stupid blah blah blah

4 concilatory- this is when people stop check their ego and decide what they were involved in might not have been exactly what they envisaged but is still worthwhile and are happy to work for the common good this is when you can truly move mountains

imo i value everyones input that is sincere and think this forum is vitally important appreciate that raw emotions are present and find unconditional love and respect from most posters

hope the 4 stages helps i know which one i want to be at

thankyou you all help me achieve some perspective

4

[WofthesunEofthemoon]

Great post, TB. Thank you for sharing the 4 stages. Had to laugh. They are all so true.

Birthday wishes also much appreciated.

[Robair]

Hello Everyone
David and I talk everyday about everything EMF, How to handle posters that promote or quote RSE has been one that is most difficult for us to deal with.
Do we let them quote anything Ram they want?
Do we let them just quotes what they feel about the good things they perceive RSE have been to them?
Do we let them refer to JZ as a good person?
Do we let them take over the board like it is a chat room. Do we? Do we? Do we?
Let say that we would have let JTT Indigo, Iamgod keep posting the way they were doing ,what do you think might have happened if left alone. They had already started to talk from the lord God of their Being. Perhaps we do not look at posts the same way that all of you do, we are always in a protective mode first, we look for red flags, talk with each other and make a decision. David and I have posted our concerns and how we see things as Moderators and operators of this site. Contrary to you guys we do not have the luxury to be whatever everyone want us to be , That the nature of the beast we deal with on a daily base, someday are much better then others.
To AD I am very surprise about your decision to not post on here anymore, I know you for a longtime and it is not like you to act this way, since when you run away from anything? You and David had many disagreement before that did not stop either one of you , Why now? What good would it do? I do not understand at all. But if it is your final decision as a friend I will support it and miss you on here.
Very sad day for us an a very good day for JZ.
Much love
Robair

[Lost in Space]

I think it is a real pity that AD 60 is leaving.
True Blue, your four stages are spot on.
As a coach in training, I learned five stages of group development:
Forming, storming, norming, performing and adjourning. In groups which do not adjourn, the tendency is to repeat the first four, and they correspond closely to True Blue's stages.

[sara]

Dear Athena - WE

Thank you for your clarity - you have said exactly what I would have tried to say.

David, you do own AD60 an apology. She was not at all hostile to the moderators; simply asking for clarification. Remember when this happened over two years ago? You hurt someone deeply who had been a good friend to you, and who had totally supported you in your work with EMF, and you did not hear her - and so she left. Please try to hear AD - please try to at least consider what she is saying, and be open to the possibility that she might be right.

[David McCarthy]

David, you do own AD60 an apology. She was not at all hostile to the moderators; simply asking for clarification. Remember when this happened over two years ago? You hurt someone deeply who had been a good friend to you,

Just not so on both accounts Sara
Calling the mods hateful is not asking for clarification.
As for "my good friend"! you meddled then as you do now and are very unhelpful in resolving the deeper issues of running and moderating EMF and the deeper challenges it takes to keep EMF safe for everyone that respects and stays within our EMF rules for posting

David

[Robair]

Hello Everyone, enough of this
Sara Why are you coming on here now and re-open this whole situation,there is no reasons for you to do so But then again it seen to be a pattern with you to rear people against each other. You have done this before with David myself and others in the past and now doing it again in this situation. You call you self a therapist and a healer, but you action contraire it. You are nothing but a divider an a hypocrite using our PM behind our back trying to rally others people against us. You never like EMF and I think you would like to see it gone or have it for yourself so you can perhaps drummed up some business . I had many emails with AD she is a very good friends of my wife and I and we love and respect her very much. After many discussions her and I came to the conclusion that this whole thing had become an endless useless argument nothing else, and have agree to disagree .She is the one who decided not to post anymore against my strong opposition, What we do not need its people like you to try to divide us even more apart, what seem to be your prime function in life. As far as I am concern You are welcome to stay out EMF all together, RSE is divisive Enough by itself without having to battle people like you.
Robair

[sara]

Dear Robair

I have never tried to rally anyone against you! And I don't want to see EMF gone, or have it for myself - what??! You've completely misjudged my motivations! And at the same time, I think maybe I can see why you see me in that way. I'm so sorry that you do. Look back at all my PMs from two years + ago, if you still have them, and you will see how much I've appreciated the moderators and the incredibly valuable work of EMF. And how my involvement started.

I don't want you to think that I don't support what you're doing. I do, and have some understanding of just how hard it is; and how much more you have to cope with than I can ever know. I haven't been here for more than two years, and I haven't maintained any kind of relationship with the moderators, and that isn't a good place from which to try to say anything to anyone. (And you and I, Robair, don't know each other at all - one email to you, and your reply, which I didn't respond to as it came long after I'd left the forum.) I came back to visit because I found that I still cared about what happens here - but you had no way of knowing that. I guess it looked as though I'd flown back in to cause trouble, with no appreciation of what you are doing, or maybe even that I'm really anti-EMF. I'm not! And I apologise for having given you that impression. I wish you all the very best.

Sara