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Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 1:07 pm
This is a moderated forum. Post using maturity and respect toward others, in particular when you don't agree. We're all entitled to our viewpoints, and posting our viewpoints. However, be sure you disagree with issues, instead of attacking people. Vitriol toward ANY group or individual is uncalled for & may result in a deleted post, and possibly being banned from further posting.
One thing I noticed on emf and ee is a tendency to use ridicule and at times vitriol toward JZ and her minions. I do it myself when I am talking or posting freely about cult leaders I despise, but when I do there is a conscience telling me to cool it, keep it real, stick to the facts.
One sign of a healthy recovery for me came when I could talk about Elizabeth Prophet and her cult game pretty much as I discuss any cult among the 500 or so I have researched over the years. She was no longer "special" for me.
The toughest stage is forgiveness
understanding that to mean "I want you to go on to sin no more
, stop the madness, admit your errors." Forgiveness is not merely letting someone off the hook for bad behavior. A repentant murderer stays in jail and does his or her time. Someone who stole your car needs to return it and pay off related losses. To me it means no longer berating and beating someone after they have made amends and strive to behave accordingly.
The question remains: What must JZ do to repent? Forgiving her depends on her will to turn this around, not just the mature good will of an ex-member.
Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:06 pm
Thank you for the reminder Joe > some great points to consider on EMF <
The issue of Vitriol has always been a challenge moderating EMF and often the matter of hours/days of moderator debate keeping EMF a safe harbor for members to vent without crossing the line into vitriol
Vitriol is often directed by someone having a meltdown, an axe to grind or what is commonly know as a forum troll. However....
What is far more destructive and disturbing is the addition of malicious and abusive rumors
that contain a spark of truth.
Without moderator intervention this form of exchange will destroy a forum such as EMF.
It destroys bridges of trust and credibility that have taken many years to build, then along comes a savvy writer intent of throwing you off that very bridge that gave them a free crossing. That is why so few ex cult member forums such as EMF exist, many collapse in the first few years from moderator burnt out.
But how to put out these fires without fanning the flames or feeding the troll?
Here is a classic exampleI have personally struggled with recently......
Several EE posters suggested / debated that I was withholding 'documentation tape evidence' to expose JZK, that I was essentially not to be trusted
I wrote directly to those involved including Brecken Scott
to fully explain I did not posses what these individuals were asking from me and asked politely and directly for a retraction posted on EE. Three weeks later no response, but the damage was done and still remains.
This is what keeps me awake at night.... wondering what on earth goes on in these people’s minds and motivation to think up such destructive postings? and for those reader that may believe this slander not even to question deeper > Why? <.
So I implore everyone on EMF that may have a question or concern on these issues to air them here.
Remember it was our inability and powerlessness to question JZK that sank us ever deeper into the RSE quagmire.
Lets not turn a blind eye to this problem on EMF.
JZK is as much a structure of corruption as it is a person, a shadow that reaches far beyond the compound of RSE.
Lets have the courage to question everything…..but without vitriol and vicious rumors.
Lets leave that exchange in JZ Knights RSE kingdom of fear and divisiveness.
The truth really does set us free but there is a cost!
Here I am 4.00 AM... So what keeps you awake at night?
Hopefully its not somebody's slander and vitriol posted on a message forum
Extreme bitterness and hatred toward somebody or something, or an expression of this feeling in speech or writing
The act or offense of saying something false or malicious that damages somebody's reputation
What is an Internet Troll/ Forum troll?
An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" or "Message Board Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:43 am
to Joe's question, there's a lot the witch has stolen that simply cannot be repaid, I need to recover certain things on my own, eg: self respect, trust of life, trustworthiness in the eyes of my family.
But I'd take 100K in USD to cover expenses.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:11 am
I have to agree with both RoyGBiv and Joe, I also feel there has been alot taken from me and things that I may never get to experience in my life because of my involvement with RSE, so yes, I do feel bitter towards what has happened and I am tired of beating myself up over it. My goal is to work towards what Joe talks about in his above post, forgiveness, for me I am not there but one day I will be there because I refuse to let RSE have that power over me, I know it will come with time.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:48 am
it is a relief to not have to think about "the cult" anymore on a daily basis, or when I do, it is practically an academic exercise.
later today after I get home from work I have to decide whether to put our dog down. she's been struggling through renal failure for 3 months and my wife thinks it is time. she was my daily walking companion for nearly 12 years. her life far outweighs any damned cult I studied or was devoted to in the past.
there are more important things than rse in your head...
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:45 am
I'm sorry to hear this Joe,
This must be a great heartbreak for you and your family.
Experiences like these certainly puts the preciousness of life and those we love into focus and priority
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 4:30 pm
Sorry to hear Joe, That is always one of the hardest things to ever do.
I have done much healing. I am not ready yet as well. Maybe I would feel different, if my family was not still so involved. I wish my parents were a real part of my life. The damage done is just still too great.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:27 am
There is a small dividing line between sarcasm and vitriol. I feel a lot of disappointment that RSE had taken so much from my friends who are hooked on the RSE cult. RSE has stripped my friends' financial stability and even more importantly RSE has stripped years of time that they will never get back.
It is difficult not to feel resentment at what RSE has taken away, but resentment is living in the past and counter productive. I tend to write about my feelings of RSE with sarcasm rather than vitriol.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 6:37 am
Sorry to hear, Joe, of your good walking companion. It is always hard to say that good bye.
I hear you: the years stolen, the roads not imagined, the emotional and material impoverishment of my years inside the rse mind trap, it is hard not to be bitter. And yet, I don't want to dwell on the past either. Forgiveness is my hope and goal, but I'm not there yet.
Vitriol isn't healing, in my opinion. Neither does it create a place for healing to happen. I believe that it is in the telling of our hard won truths of our process of recovering our self/soul that we thrust the sword into the created fantasy of jzk/ramtha.
And the temptation to hit low and viciously is real. Yet it does not bring back what was stolen from us.
I am so sorry.
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:41 am
Joe I am sorry to hear of your decision about your dog, I can't imagine having to do this. I also found a great companion in a dog, and everyday when I come home from work, there she is just waiting for me, now that is unconditional love, how she makes me smile. My thoughts are with you and your family!!!
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 5:23 pm
Hi Joe, Am really sorry about your dog. Animals can be wonderful companions and friends. My thoughts go to you and your family.
Re forgiveness and vitriol.
Just mo on some general thoughts about forgiveness is a wide range of situations.
Forgiveness takes time, requires distance and some healing to have taken place.It can't really be rushed, it seems that acknowledging the hurt has to happen first for many people. Sometimes people really need to express their anger and be heard.
Context and the reason why people did things matter a lot to me. If the intentions were basically good, forgiveness and understanding is easy. Deliberate harm done because someone enjoys doing so and takes pleasure in your pain is much harder to take. As is personal harm, or harm to family members. Often it is worse seeing someone you love harmed than it is to be harmed yourself.
Understanding what people are thinking, what motivates them, helps a lot with understanding. And when you understand someone it becomes easier to forgive them, particularly for unintentional hurt.
Imo, forgiveness does not require you to allow someone to hurt you again though.
Even if you are dealing with someone you can't forgive, you can still choose to be fair. Being fair to someone even if you don't like or can't forgive , is about you, not about them. it is interesting when you want to get to know someone to see how they treat the people they dislike, or those who are on the outskirts of their social group.
Learned a long time ago with the ups and downs of in group dynamics, that if you want to know how someone will treat you when you are in the unpopular group ; look at how they treat whoever is unpopular right now.
The whole issue is really hard, and I don't really have it sorted out yet, but it is a good topic to hear other peoples opinions on.
Was also thinking; the things that have been really important years later were small acts of kindness; people who did not need to be who went out of their way to be kind in one way or another. A lot of memories also of good people..
Dave; re your situation, am sorry people are giving you such a hard time, and hope it eases up soon.
Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:23 am
Hey Joe. Sorry about your dog. They're such great buddies and a big part of the family. Remember the good times.
Vitriol: I'm in the same boat as Rooster. If I had found RSE on my own and decided to participate of my own volition, I would feel differently. If I didn't have to watch my parents WASTE their lives living in fear of the end of days, I would feel differently. If my parents had the financially secure retirement they should have based on their years of work, I would feel differently. If my little niece wasn't being indoctrinated into R$E on a daily basis, I would feel differently.
I don't forgive JZ. I loathe JZ. She is a horrible horrible person who is becoming as ugly on the outside as she is on the inside. I do find amusement in that because it's always been obvious how important her appearance is to her and her good looks are long gone and only getting worse. Maybe that makes me petty, vindictive or a bad person. So be it (add C&E hand position with right hand wave). I don't know and sorry if I offended anyone (outside of JZ that is. you can go &%$%$ yourself). If my family wasn't still head and shoulders into the stupid "teachings" that haven't produced any positive results after well over 20 years, I wouldn't give JZ or R$E a 2nd thought. If I had discovered it on my own and went and a R$E memory popped into my head, I would laugh about it now but unfortunately, that's not the case.
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 2:22 am
Found it on my own, sure wish I was in a place to laugh at it, maybe oneday!!! Seriously, I am sad to hear your parents are still in, and after that many years, they have invested into JZ's retirement, nicely, where in reality they could use it for themselve, it makes me pretty crazy, because I know what I put forth to be a part of it all. I could have a nice chunk of change into my retirement, but no, instead JZ has it!! And when I say that it makes me very very angry, and not only the money many other things I didn't pursue in my life, like having children, biological clock has ticked out on that. And I really thought one day I would be a mom, didn't happen spend to much of my time buying into doomsday predictions. So it is more than just money, it is all the things I wanted to pursue and thought one day I would until JZ got her lovely claws into my brain!!! Sorry I don't mean to continue to vent, but I am also angry and hurt. Forgiveness, isn't even in my vocabulary at this time for her!!!
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:26 am
Forgiveness, isn't even in my vocabulary at this time for her!!!
JZ has done NOTHING to deserve your forgiveness or mine or anyone's. She does not believe in saying "sorry." she will only do the right thing when forced to by the law.
I would not trust her to watch my pet toad [if I had one].
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:47 pm
Interesting article on this subject; sorry I am not sure how to link, maybe someone else with better tech skills can do it?
"A Holocaust Survivors Path to Peace: Forgiving Josef Mengele"
The survivor Eva was one of Megeles "twin experiments". At ten years old, Mengele told her she had two weeks to live after he injected her with toxic bacteria. The plan was that after she died her twin would be killed by lethal injection, so side by side autopsies would be done. Unexpectedly she survived . She said she knew that if she died her sister would be murdered.
Eva came to a place many years later, where she decided to forgive Mengele.
Some holocaust survivors are furious with her; they feel that in forgiving, she is exonerating the murderers and torturers who worked there.
Eva says it has bought her peace, and it "felt as if an incredibly heavy weight of suffering had been lifted"
her comment " What the victims do does not change what happened, but every victim has the right to heal themselves as well as they can."
I don't know what the answer is; maybe it is different for different people.
I have noticed though that forgiveness really only happens when people are out of the situation, and are in a position where they can no longer be hurt.
Don't know if it is the right thing, or even something people should aim for. just thought the different opinions in this article were interesting.
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:31 pm
What must she do to repent??
For starters, hold a press conference admit her bad behavior, get on every morning talk show and make the media rounds from the circus that will begin, and then book lecture tours on how she came to "see the light".... it works for the politicians, why not her?
Gonna happen?? methinks not.
As far as your post HB , that is an interesting story , I can't help but wonder if her sister feels the same way being twins and all, is there a genetic relation to forgiveness? . My Dad impressed on me the fact that you should not try to change another person, only how you deal with them and your own perceptions of them.
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:13 pm
Interesting article on this subject; sorry I am not sure how to link, maybe someone else with better tech skills can do it?
Thank you HBfoster, here is the link and article >
December 9, 2005
A HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR'S PATH TO PEACE
Forgiving Josef Mengele
By Roman Heflik
Eva Kor and her twin sister both miraculously survived Auschwitz and the infamous SS doctor Josef Mengele. But despite almost being murdered, Eva forgave the Nazis. The documentary of her life has now been shown for the first time in Germany.
A quick look at the medical charts was enough. "You have just two weeks to live," the doctor said. That was it; he then left the sick bay -- without giving his patient, the 10-year-old Eva, any medication. Why should he when he wanted the young Romanian girl to die. The doctor, Josef Mengele, had himself injected her with a lethal cocktail of bacteria.
It was the spring of 1944 when Eva Kor, along with her twin sister Miriam and her mother, arrived in the concentration camp Auschwitz-Birkenau. When the family climbed down from the train, an agitated SS guard ran up to them yelling "Twins! Twins!" A few moments later, Eva and Miriam were torn away from their mother. They never saw her again.
Fast forward more than 60 years, and the young girl Eva is now an old woman of 71. She has curly white hair and is, on this Tuesday evening, sporting a blue outfit with short sleeves and a silk shawl. On her left forearm, her tattoo from Auschwitz is still easily visible: A-7063. Yet while the fact that Eva is still alive may be astounding enough, it is her presence in Hamburg at the invitation of the Körber Foundation this week -- and the German debut of a documentary film about her life -- that really takes one's breath away. The film -- made by filmmaker Bob Hercules and historian Cheri Pugh, both American -- is called "Forgiving Dr. Mengele." Because that is exactly what Eva Mozes Kor did.
Her story, though, came close to ending prematurely -- as did so many in the death camps of World War II. After being selected from among the new arrivals, the sisters were brought to the now-infamous camp doctor Josef Mengele. Mengele had a standing order for twins; he needed them for his "medical experiments." Most of the time, he injected one of the twins with poison or with a bacteria or virus and then documented the development of the disease and the onset of death. As soon as the test patient died, he and his assistants would then immediately murder the twin sibling -- usually with an injection in the heart -- before performing simultaneous autopsies. Some 1,400 pairs of twins fell victim to Mengele's barbaric experiments.
Forgiveness and healing
And it was exactly this that he intended to do with the Kor twins. "But he had another thing coming," Eva says defiantly. Thanks to an iron will -- and a strong immune system -- Eva survived the disease Mengele had injected into her veins. "I just kept thinking, 'If I die, then Miriam will be murdered as well.'"
On Jan. 27, 1945, the Soviet Red Army liberated the survivors of Auschwitz-Birkenau and brought their nightmare to an end. Not too much later, the Kor twins emigrated to Israel. Eva then moved on to the United States, started her own family and became a real estate broker. But the suffering stayed with them. Miriam, too, had apparently received an injection from Mengele, but nobody could figure out what she was suffering from. Her kidneys, though, were failing. Once again, Eva did what she could to save her sister's life and donated one of her own kidneys. But the disease could not be stopped and, in 1993, Miriam died in Israel.
Since then, however, Eva's story has become one of forgiveness and personal healing. It has also become one of controversy. After all, the film, shown at the Körber Foundation on Tuesday night, does not focus on annihilation and guilt, as do so many Holocaust films that came before it. Rather, it is about a woman who made peace with those who exterminated her family and who tried to exterminate her.
Kor's path to peace began with a trip to the country of her would-be murderers from her current hometown of Terre Haute, Indiana. Only a few weeks after the death of her sister, Eva flew to Germany to meet with a German doctor. Hans Münch was his name, and he had worked alongside Mengele in Auschwitz. After World War II ended, the SS-medic faced war crimes charges, but was found not guilty. In contrast to his colleagues, it was found that Münch had not carried out any experiments on his patients.
A former Nazi with a shy smile
She was incredibly nervous when she finally found herself standing in front of Münch's door, Kor says. But then, an elderly gentleman with snow-white hair, a carefully trimmed beard and a shy smile opened the door. Yes, he admitted, he had been there during the gassings. "And that's my problem," he went on. He still suffers from depression and nightmares as a result. Kor had gone looking for a monster, but found a human being instead. "I then decided that I would write Münch a letter in which I forgave him," Kor says.
But the resolute Auschwitz survivor went even further than that. When, in January 1995, the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz was celebrated, Kor brought Münch along. On the snow-covered site of the former extermination camp, she read a confession of guilt from Münch to the gathered press. She saw it as an important statement from an eye-witness that could be used to contradict those who would deny the Holocaust. But then, she said, "In my own name, I forgive all Nazis."
The other former concentration camp prisoners were horrified. "We have no right to forgive the perpetrators in the names of the victims," was the formulation often used. Kor's private amnesty was shocking, said one woman who had also been a victim of Mengele's experiments on twins. And ever since Kor's personal clemency, a number of Auschwitz survivors have done their best to avoid her. The pain and anger is just too deep. Can one really forgive pure evil? By doing so, does one not exonerate the murderers and torturers who ran the camps?
The American real estate agent today, though, is certain that she did the right thing. "I felt as though an incredibly heavy weight of suffering had been lifted," she says. "I never thought I could be so strong." She says that because she was able to forgive her worst enemies, she was finally able to free herself from her victim status. But, she is quick to add, forgiveness does not mean forgetting. "What the victims do does not change what happened," she says. But every victim has the right to heal themselves as well as they can. "And the best thing about the remedy of forgiveness," she says, "is that there are no side effects. And everybody can afford it."
StreetGangs.Com forum on Gangs in the United States • View topic - A Holocaust Survivors Path To Peace,Forgiving Josef Mengele
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/interna ... 91,00.html
http://www.streetgangs.com/billboard/vi ... &p=8674301
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 9:27 pm
the old religions have dealt with this problem through their myths and ethical codes. The Bhagavad Gita teaches that one must do one's duty, even if it means killing cousins in war, and leave the rest to Krisna [God]. Only God can make the final judgement and will make that final judgement more precisely and thoroughly than we can ever imagine. The enemy is forgiven for doing its duty. War becomes the nonsense it really is in the end but shirking duty is a coward's way out and creates "karma" in that scheme.
Buddhists are famous for their ability to forgive. One story has a calm Tibetan monk facing the sword of a Chinese soldier who says, "Don't you know I can run this sword right through you?" The monk answered, "Do you not know I can allow you to run that sword through me?"
Same option in Christianity: How often must I forgive my neighbor? Seven times? No. Seventy times seven times you must forgive him.
I have a book about the Amish community that suffered a mass shooting of children and teachers at a small school here in SE PA in 2006. They all in short order went to the family of the shooter and said they forgive. Think No Evil by Jonas Beiler and Shawn Smucker (2009).
http://www.amazon.com/Think-No-Evil-Sch ... 1416562982
Of course, I am not sure how they would have behaved if the shooter was still at large and threatening to do it again.
JZ refuses to stop targeting people and "shooting" bs teachings into their heads for personal gain...
So it comes down to duty. The Gita would say she must be stopped. JZ started the war, thus she has given up her right to be left alone.
Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 10:32 pm
Shocked, good points. Our situations were a little different and I understand your point of view. I was indoctrinated as a young person but only attended R$E for a year and a half or two at the most. I gave up a lot too during those times and my life took a very different course than it would have had my parents never seen one of the early Ramtha tapes. During my time at RSE, I too shied away from relationships, marriage, and children. Why bring a child into the world filled with evil aliens, secret government groups, financial ruin and catastrophic earth changes that are right around the corner? That would be cruel and selfish. Funny how all of those R$E doomsday topics have come and gone and come back again over the last 20+ years.
Shocked, I wish you well and embrace life now. If you really want a child, maybe you can adopt or be a foster parent. If those aren't options, you could use some of the time you're no longer using memorizing cards, doing candle focus or c&e and give time to a local children's charity.
Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 3:56 am
Thank you, seriously for your response and for your listening ear, sometimes there are things I just have to get off of my mind about all the things I have come to regret or not experience, at times the road is also lonely when you are out of RSE. I thank god for this site. I am at a place in my career where I can actually volunteer my time, and that is something I will look into one day. Still there are days where I just continue to feel overwhelmed and continue to look back at the experience of RSE,as I learn how this has happened and what happened during this time, things do get better, but it is a process, I really want to find peace and forgiveness for myself! Thank you for listening!! You have no idea how much better I feel when I can share, with a understanding group of people!!!
Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 8:50 pm
From Joe SZ..."So it comes down to duty. The Gita would say she must be stopped. JZ started the war, thus she has given up her right to be left alone."...
Yes Joe, I agree. There is some sense of moral duty to shut down JZ Knight... And expose her in everyway possible.
I hope you find some solace in putting your beloved pet down, I think I would be very torn as to the right thing to do.
Not sure if this is right for you, but I would consider getting another one... A puppy(?)... Food for thought...