Elizabeth Clare Prophet

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Tree
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Elizabeth Clare Prophet

Unread post by Tree » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:32 pm

Church Universal and Triumphant
Son Sean prophet on his mother and father's cult.

http://www.blacksunjournal.com/televisi ... _2008.html

Tree
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Erin Prophet

Unread post by Tree » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:56 pm

her book:
Prophet's Daughter: My Life with Elizabeth Clare Prophet Inside the Church Universal and Triumphant
http://www.amazon.com/Prophets-Daughter ... 1599214253

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Unread post by joe sz » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:49 am

thanks for tip on the new Erin Prophet book due in Oct. I am already wary of the content, however, because of the endorsement by Lowell Streiker, Ph.D ---

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Unread post by Tree » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:07 am

understood.

the son is more objective, me thinks.

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Unread post by Tree » Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:32 am

who is Lowell Streiker, Ph.D?
moreso, what raises your skeptic eyebrow? :)

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Unread post by Tree » Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:26 pm

just as a side commentary here to Sean's interviews:

I thought he had some awesome insight as to dialoguing with past and current members of his mother's cult/group.

If it were me in the group, I most certainly would want her son's perspective as he has been there first hand
for over 30 years. If anyone would have some insight, it would be the adult children.

Just as I am sure Brandy and Chris have had to sign some legal-ese about not talking to anyone about their mother
until 25 years after her death,
I think as human beings, I would think from a philanthropic point of view, one would want to help their fellow
humans out of a ditch, but if they are bound by money and a potential lawsuit, it might be easy to just
go blithely away and turn a cheek......

hats off to Sean here.

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Unread post by joe sz » Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:29 am

tree
EC Prophet had 5 kids, 4 of which (Sean, Erin, Moira, Tatiana by Mark Prophet) are grown adults and some with children. The youngest, a son around 13 now, was reportedly conceived with in vitro and egg implant assistance so ECP at age 55 could have the predicted and long-awaited "fifth child." I have been told where the "egg" came from but will not reveal that here.
I think each kid has a unique view and reaction to being raised as the elite in the cult.

Lowell Streicker is an odd cult expert who once aligned with the old 'anti cult movement' but later went against it. He was vehemently against me and other "deprogrammers." Some of his clients have complained to me about his counseling content. He used to run his little organization in Calif.
see http://www.religion-online.org/showarti ... ?title=862
and a book he wrote in 198?
http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Bending-Brai ... 513&sr=1-6

also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Enroth
"Enroth complained that Melton, together with co-author Robert Moore, had lumped Christians in with secularists in their 1982 book The Cult Experience. Enroth also accused David Bromley, Anson Shupe, and Lowell Streiker, of committing the same error in their writings."

Streiker is usually lumped in with Melton, Shupe and other cult "apologists"

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streiker article

Unread post by joe sz » Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:41 am

http://www.nccg.info/source/complaint2.html

This where Streiker lumps me in with prominent deprgrammers in the 1980s. Despite some good points, the entire article is filled with errors and his weird bias.

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erin prophet's book

Unread post by joe sz » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:43 am

I just received and read much of Prophet's daughter by Erin Prophet---well done despite some things I see quite differently about the group.

I think anyone who has been close to JZ for any length of time and left RSE will identify with Erin's experiences and insights.

Erin "exited" the group in 1993 even though she was still around to help with certain things, especially with her mother who for maybe ten years was sinking deeper into dementia until finally diagnosed with Alzheimers in 1997. Erin's account of her life with her siblings brings a reality and humanity to this, to outsiders, oddball cult.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:17 am

Joe,

My only concern with a book written by someone who was as close to ECP as her daughter was. Especially when you commented that you saw some things differently. On the one hand, we ALL see things differently when it comes to various topics; while in some areas we would agree. That's to be expected since we all walk in different shoes. I just wonder how honest Erin would/could be when certain areas might become "political" for her, thus affecting her willingness to be fully candid.

Do you think that is a totally invalid concern, somewhat valid, or more so ?

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amazon reviews of Prophet book

Unread post by joe sz » Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:19 am

watcha:
I understand your concern but after reading the book I think Erin does a remarkable job telling the story and she does fill in with critical information about why she came to reject her mother's world view and the group. You will get a clear idea of just how crazy Mother became and behaved....and why.
Yes, I did find some parsing on her part to avoid a few sensitive areas--after all she is talking about her parents and her siblings! What I found remarkable is that she does acknowledge some painful personal issues regarding sex teachings and behaviors as well as how groupthink operated in CUT especially during the fear and doom cycle from the mid 80s till 1990.

here's what I wrote for amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/15 ... geNumber=2

"Readers unfamiliar with Elizabeth Clare Prophet and her "Church" Universal and Triumphant might find this book a bit strange. Like most of the reviewers {19} I am familiar with CUT but unlike some I applaud the author's fine narrative about her personal journey through and beyond her mother's cult. Sure, I would have written about some events differently but for the most part I find Erin's revelation to be as good as it gets for this genre of books by children of infamous religious leaders. Her view is far more mature and balanced than some of the goofy reviews I just read here.

This is not a book for someone looking for a history or sociology of CUT. For that, for starters, you can read The Church Universal and Triumphant: Elizabeth Clare Prophet's Apocalyptic Movement by Bradley Whitsel (2003) see my review:
http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/CUT%20whitsel.htm

Erin Prophet writes a more intimate account that both affirmed why so many broke away from CUT over the years and confirmed most of my knowledge and opinion about Elizabeth Prophet."

This is not a participant-observer study--it is autobiography. Erin has a right to tame it down or spice it up but I think she managed to keep it fairly balanced. As I said, in that genre it is a very good one. One of the best I read is "My Father's Guru" by Jeffrey M Masson. You all should read that one.

My Father's Guru: A Journey Through Spirituality and Disillusion (Paperback)
by Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson
http://www.amazon.com/My-Fathers-Guru-S ... 189&sr=1-1

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:52 pm

Joe commented, "I think she managed to keep it fairly balanced."

That's good. It's a good reflection on her that after all she went through, she is able to sustain a healthy balance. It's also an inspiration to others that we don't have to be "damaged goods" after exiting a cult. Recovery can be rough, but plenty of us also get a healthy perspective on it all and skip merrily along, while shining a light behind us for those who care to look.

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Unread post by joe sz » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:25 am

watcha
I'm reviewing the book for ICSA. In that review I will list the flaws I found in the book and how Erin leans away from anything to do with what her favored scholars call the "anti-cult network".....wherein they lump moi. btw, I am nowhere mentioned in the book, which is fine with me, beacuse she does a dismissive paragraph about a failed deprogramming case that I was on in 1987. She left out mention of many significant critics and most of the ones she did mention were framed in less than favorable light!
Nevertheless, I will stand by my opinion that she did a good job in a brave effort.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:58 am

Joe said, "I will list the flaws I found in the book and how Erin leans away from anything to do with what her favored scholars call the "anti-cult network".....wherein they lump moi."

Ahhh. I understand. One thing I've learned in the last three years especially, is the politics, if you will, that exists within the various groups; the cults, the cult apologists and the "anti-cult" folks. There is no doubt left in my mind that most of the three groups have degrees of their own agendas, clouded with with assorted issues related to egos and being oh-so-human. How sad that it can't be more simple and pure than that.

With reference to your previous post about the book NOT containing any sordid family details; I agree it's good they're NOT there. What I was getting at, was whether or not she had a point of view that would lend to showing her mother/family in a light such as Peyton Place. I wouldn't know, because I know nothing about her or where she's coming from. I'm sure there would be folks who would want to read such smut, but I would hope that the tone of the book is primarily focused on, in the end, offering the information and documentation beyond just being a narrative, that would HELP people see the scam. Peeking behind the scenes, through her eyes, is only going to be worthwhile (in my opinion) if it offers a constructive message of help, hope and honesty. That is why I asked (since you'd know more about that, having been in CUT and following it more closely), if she had influences that would compromise the overall integrity in the ways just mentioned.

Isn't it wonderful that she's lumped you into a pigeonhole ? At least you know where you stand !!!

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posted review of Erin Prophet's book

Unread post by joe sz » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:24 pm

http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/erin_ ... 202008.htm

Prophet?s Daughter
My life with Elizabeth Clare Prophet inside the Church Universal and Triumphant

Erin Prophet, 2009

Guilford, CT: The Lyons Press

ISBN 978-1-59921-425-2

286 pages, $24.95 hardbound



Review by Joe Szimhart, October 2008

Ten years ago journalist Scott McMillion interviewed Erin Prophet for his article "Prophet?s daughter is writing a book" (Bozeman Chronicle, March 16, 1998). In that interview, the author projected that her book would be out in 1999. Prophet?s Daughter eventually saw publication in September of 2008. That delay may have been a good thing. The author?s life took many turns in the past decade until she settled in the New England area. During that gestation period she refined this memoir of an extraordinary journey through and beyond her mother?s cult.

I mean "cult" in the ordinary sense because no other word describes the reverence and ritual surrounding the "mantle" of Elizabeth Prophet as ?Mother? and ?Mother of the Universe.? If you read this account you will appreciate the difficulty any author would have to ?keep it real? while writing about a past that resembles a fantasy novel. Erin grew up believing she was Mahatma Gandhi reincarnated. Her siblings Moira, Sean and Tatiana believed in past lives as John F. Kennedy, King Arthur, and Helena Roerich. They believed this because their mother and father told them it was so. Elizabeth Prophet (born 1939) no longer functions as a guru due to early onset of Alzheimer?s, diagnosed by 1998, but her mythic and symbolic status remains strong among Summit Lighthouse followers.

Summit Lighthouse was the earlier name of the Church Universal and Triumphant; a New Age religion founded in 1958 by Mark Prophet, the author?s father who died in 1973. Erin was the second of four children born to Mark and Elizabeth after they wed in 1961. Mark trained Elizabeth to be a spirit medium or "Messenger" for a host of nearly forty disembodied Ascended Masters who guide the affairs of humanity and the entire cosmos. Erin was in training to be the next Messenger until she gradually defected from the Teachings of her parents starting in 1993. True to its title, the book focuses on this unusual, exhilarating and difficult relationship between mother and daughter/guru and disciple. The book is also a privileged insider?s overview of life in the group as it faced social, legal and political conflicts in its growth from nearly a thousand members when Mark died to well over ten thousand at its peak under Elizabeth (group members estimate over 25,000).

Erin Prophet opens her story with perhaps the most pivotal event of the group?s history. On March 14 of 1990, around two thousand church members went underground into survival shelters to avoid annihilation from a predicted nuclear strike. Unknown to the general membership, Erin as junior messenger or "seer" had an integral role in revealing the specific dates related to her mother?s prophecy of a "doom cycle" based on a form of astrology. We learn from Erin just how tenuous these predictions were yet thousands of devotees moved everything from locations around the globe to be in Montana by the late 1980s. The church members spent millions of dollars and volunteered many man-hours to build several large underground shelters, including one that held over 700 people. They stocked these with provisions to last over a year, all because Elizabeth through the "Masters" said they must to survive. After all, these ?Keepers of the Flame? might be responsible for reconstituting a devastated planet with a culture based on Ascended Master teachings.

Although CUT leaders spun the non-event of doomsday as merely a "drill?, most members saw it differently. Erin makes it clear that they fully expected to survive a nuclear hit that night. As they all emerged the next morning, they saw nothing on the surface had changed. It was a beautiful day. Inwardly, many hundreds did change that day and over the following few years they would withdraw from participation, defect or gradually drift away from the "Teachings." Splinter groups formed led by former members who claimed to channel the ?Masters.? Faith in Guru Ma or Mother as prophet was shattered except among the most devoted. Nevertheless, CUT reorganized as a less fear-laden New Age religion governed by committee by the late 1990s as Mother lost all ability to function as Messenger. Since then CUT has enjoyed new membership more aligned with goals of personal ascension than fear of annihilation.

Erin reveals another theme regarding her mother?s medical condition that contributed to the guru?s odd religious obsessions and the direction the group took. Elizabeth suffered from petit mal seizures or blackouts from an early age. This disorder may have contributed to her profound visionary experiences throughout her life. The magical way Elizabeth perceived the illness also contributed to her various phobias of bad energy and psychic attack. Indeed, as Erin confirms throughout her story, Elizabeth and her followers used an elaborate book of ?decrees? (chanted mantras or a form a casting spells with words and swords) to ?clear? just about any problem imaginable. With the decrees Mark and Elizabeth Prophet combined elements of Theosophy, New Thought and the older ?I AM? movement to spiritualize everything real and imaginable.

Elizabeth kept her condition hidden from members as much as possible especially after she began having "tonic-clonic" seizures, a.k.a. grand mal, that required hospitalizations. I recall in 1980, while I was still peripherally involved with CUT, strong rumors of Mother?s "epileptic" condition. Later, in a 1982 interview, the estranged parents of Betty Clare, as they called their only child, confirmed this. I understood Mother?s affliction then as petit mal events. Erin clears this up for us as she had access to the medical report and was witness to some of her mother?s worst seizures. Elizabeth used several medications to control her affliction as well as turning to a host of alternative diets and treatments including high colonics, mustard plasters, chiropractors and massages. She did not like the side effects of more effective seizure drugs like Depakote that can cause a sluggishness and weight gain.

Although Erin does not use the phrase in her book, her mother referred to some dark forces as "malicious animal magnetism," a concept taken from the Christian Science of Mary Baker Eddy. Christian Science was Elizabeth?s religion when she met Mark Prophet around 1960. Keeping the dark forces at bay with constant chanting is a core activity of CUT. This feature called decreeing was carried over from CUT?s primary foundation group, the ?I AM? Activity founded Guy and Edna Ballard in the 1930s.

The author describes a good example of Mother?s paranoid projections that occurred during the ?Mull trial.? Erin spends considerable attention to CUT?s lawsuit against and countersuit by Gregory Mull who was an architect on staff with CUT for six years. During a personal dispute over money and the guru?s behavior, Mother dismissed Mull from the group in 1980. Erin reveals that Mother Prophet wanted to retrieve around thirty thousand dollars ?loaned? to Mull that he claimed was due him as wages by the group. Erin does not report that Mull also challenged Mother?s private ethics after he discovered that the guru kept a file of confession letters sent by group members. These letters should have been burned after the guru read them. Mull eventually won over one million dollars awarded by a jury in 1986 for, among other things, ?involuntary servitude.? An appellate court upheld the verdict in 1989.

On page 101, Erin reveals how this loss in court created a ?catalyst? for the group to shut down most of remaining church activity in the Los Angeles area and move the entire headquarters to Montana. Mother saw Mull, her ex-husband Randall, and anyone else involved in the litigation as aligned with ?fallen ones? and ?black magicians.? The doom themes that attended group beliefs from the early 1970s now came into sharper focus. Erin and CUT members decreed continually to stop the dark energies and to hurl the ?karma? back upon the attackers. Erin muses over what would have happened if ?mom? had merely settled with Gregory for what he initially asked. We learn how that was not possible because Mother was stubborn and entitled. The trial would have serious reverberations in more ways than a loss of money.

The trial enabled Elizabeth?s ex-husband Randall to testify under oath to crucial, damaging facts about group behavior and the guru?s character. He revealed for example, that he had an affair with Elizabeth before Erin?s father died. At the time Erin and all the Prophet children were incensed that Randall would ?lie? under oath. Purity in sexual behavior was a fundamental teaching if not an obsession in CUT. As Erin reveals later in the book, when her mom knew she was losing her battle with dementia, Elizabeth confessed a host of personal failures to her family. One of the more significant was that she indeed had an affair that entailed ?mutual masturbation? with Randall before Mark died. With the pile of other conflicts already stressing the Prophet children as they grew into adulthood, this was a last straw. Something emotionally unraveled after that for all of them. In Erin?s words, ?She had just undermined so may of the decisions I had made in my life? (248).



For the most part, Erin Prophet fulfilled her task to write this book with a keen and at times raw honesty. As the short reviews (21 at this writing) on amazon.com reveal, ex-members who were there before and during the ?shelter? period found Erin?s testimony rich with insight and meaning. CUT sympathizers reacted with disgust as if Erin were a confused traitor with one reviewer calling her book a ?hall of mirrors.? Any reader familiar or not with CUT must appreciate the utter weirdness and difficulty of such self-exposure?after all, this is about her mother, her father and her siblings. Add to that the complex if confusing, not to mention comical richness, of the CUT teachings that borrow from and violate a host of religions and myths.

Erin easily left out hundreds of pages of story. What she included is enough to make her point clear enough. That point is that her mother may have exhibited a certain leadership charisma and an extraordinary talent for channeling but the world of CUT Masters was essentially all in Elizabeth?s head. That world was primarily dependent on one woman?s stability in reason, ethics, and health. Perhaps as memes the same Masters continue to speak through hundreds of other channels today but Elizabeth Prophet?s Masters are gone, if indeed they were ever there. Erin leaves little doubt that the Ascended Masters of CUT depended on the Prophets for their very existence. None of the Prophet children could get their heads into it to continue the legacy.

One issue I have with this book is personal, so I very well may be the only one interested in what I say next. Like me, I imagine that the vast majority of people who bought this book soon after its release have a personal connection to the CUT experience. Among the buyers will be a handful of scholars that continue to study the movement. Erin Prophet leaves out some significant aspects of CUT teaching and facts about her family that attracted me to the group in 1978 and subsequently drew me into it as a devotee for nearly two years. I want to make it clear that I was never a core member but did go to three conferences and pursued CUT?s Keeper of the Flame fraternity for one year. My deeper interest at the time was with Agni Yoga, a Theosophy movement started by Nicholas Roerich and Helena Roerich in the early 1920s. In 1978, when friends of mine in CUT revealed that Helena Roerich reincarnated as Elizabeth Prophet?s youngest daughter Tatiana, I was curious to meet this auspicious little girl. The closest I got was seeing her from afar at CUT conferences in 1979.

Erin hardly mentions connections to the Roerichs and Agni Yoga. On page 149 she does report reading the Morya-related writings of the Roerichs. Agni Yoga is never mentioned. For me it was significant that El Morya, the ascended ?sponsor? of the Prophets, was not only integral to the Agni Yoga foundation myth but ?he? also dictated that the Prophets would fulfill both the ?I AM? teachings of the Ballards and the Agni Yoga of the Roerichs. I was very familiar with both movements prior to my intro to CUT so this seemed like a natural, or should I say supernatural, progression for me.

The general reader should understand that this Agni Yoga aspect of CUT is controversial at best. In 1980 (two years before I rejected the Roerich teachings) the director of AY, then in New York at the Roerich Museum, explicitly denied to me in person that AY approved of anything the Prophets were doing. Sina Fosdick told me that Mark and Elizabeth approached her with their newer ?Morya? message many years before but she declined to align with them. Nevertheless, the Prophets continued to use images of Nicholas Roerich paintings to illustrate their book covers and teachings. The museum had not given CUT permission to do so. This is one example of just how self-entitled the Prophets were as they patched anything they could get away with from any source into their private religion. Since 1990, Agni Yoga has enjoyed a revival mainly in Russia where it has catapulted to three million adherents today (See roerichreview.htm). This is extraordinary because both the ?I AM? and CUT have splintered and faltered despite a mild revival with members running only in the thousands. And what of Helena Roerich reincarnated as Tatiana? Erin writes, ?Tatiana rejects all church teaching and ritual, and thinks it would have been better if Mom had done something more constructive with her life?nothing good came out of the church.? (270)



My final personal item regards Erin?s choice of scholars of religion in sociology and a related attitude toward the so-called anti-cult movement and deprogrammers. Erin mentions two cases of failed ?forced? deprogramming by families of CUT members. One young woman, ?Tara?, was quite wealthy with a large inheritance already targeted by Mother and her staff. Erin reports that Tara was ?kidnapped and deprogrammed in 1987? (160) but Tara ran away and called police. Apparently, no charges were filed. This sounds suspiciously like one case in 1987 that included me. I will not go into the drama but no one was kidnapped or held against her will in my case (believe me, I know the difference between being merely pressured and illegally forced) even though the cult member?s mother tricked her into coming to a remote cabin. That ?Tara? could have walked away at any time and she did take walks alone at times (there were occupied cabins within a half a mile). For some inexplicable reason she thought she had to run away. All involved spoke with the police afterwards to clear up the confusion. Erin reports that CUT targeted $1 million, but I recall the inheritance was more like $5 million, most of which may have gone to CUT projects.

The other deprogramming case mentioned on page 201-202 involved Erin?s sister Moira. I was not on that case but two colleagues of mine were. Months later one of them showed me some video footage of Moira talking with the CUT member at the family?s home. As Erin tells it, Moira was disenfranchised and very critical of the group at the time. ?She was adding her voice to those of the ex-members and anti-cult experts who had been interviewed [regarding the arrests of CUT?s security chief and Elizabeth?s fourth husband for illegal weapons purchase and transport in 1989].? Again, Erin writes that ?one of our members was kidnapped and held against her will. The deprogramming didn?t even work?but Moira accepted $2000 in payment.? I double-checked with the woman who handled that entire intervention. She insists there was no kidnapping because Moira would not have been there under illegal circumstances. One has to be careful here because just as ex-members will sometimes exaggerate what happened to them in a cult, just so the ?heroes? who return from a failed deprogramming might recall or report things quite differently than what actually occurred.

Erin goes on to say, ?Deprogramming was, in my opinion, an ultimate violation of freedom of religion.? I agree with her to extent that no law should condone forcible deprogramming. Even non-coercive intervention by surprise is troublesome though the ?new religious movement? member can leave and/or refuse to talk at any time. Ninety percent of my five-hundred plus, non-coercive intervention cases began by a surprise meeting. By far, most of them worked out just fine. But there is a larger issue here that speaks to Erin Prophet?s values regarding why she broke away from her mother?s cult. Her book serves as evidence of what I am about to say here.

Erin provides eye witness information that challenges the belief foundation of both current CUT members and anyone looking to join the movement from this day forward. In effect, in sorting out the truth she has gone through a self-deprogram or exit counsel process. In that process she turned to other sources to find more appropriate plausibility structures for her awakening from CUT and delusions or misperceptions about Mother. She turned to psychology and sociology for some of that structure (232-33). She especially found insight from Lorne L. Dawson?s review of thirteen apocalyptic groups. Erin like so many ex-cult members had to re-apply the overwrought aphorism ?know the truth and the truth shall make you free.? That saying from the Gospel of John 8:32, ?And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free,? works to keep as many people in controversial groups as it does to help them out!

After the 1987 failed deprogramming event mentioned by Erin, I went on with my career with more preparation and insight. In the following two years I conducted interventions that involved more than a dozen groups other than CUT. Through the end of 1989 I encountered at least fourteen more CUT members in mostly surprise interventions arranged by their family members. All fourteen either already moved to Montana to prepare for doomsday or were about to move there?in other words, members very committed to the cause. I met with all of these folks at the family homes. All fourteen of them left CUT during our talks. Only one of those cases began coercively as a ?house arrest? but even that ended within four hours of my meeting the CUT member. I ended the security and we had an open, productive discussion for the next three days.[1]

Is it possible that these ?victims? of intervention freely chose to leave CUT based on new facts, structures, and insights that my colleagues and I provided through deprogramming (a.k.a. exit counseling) sessions? Was that a violation of their freedom of religion? Or was it a way to heal them from a sick self-sealing plausibility structure that could have ?infected? and contained their choices and lives for years to come? In those cases, I took nothing away?what I did was assist the group member to heal from an illness of sorts. All they ?lost? was a social straightjacket and a constricted thought process. After a successful intervention the client has a clearer idea how to avoid the ?illness? in the future no matter what group they join.

Erin?s choice of scholars (she mentions Lorne Dawson, Lowell Streiker, and J. Gordon Melton) that seem (to me) to form her opinions offer their own forms of constriction. When it comes to perceptions of what deprogrammers and the so-called anti-cult network (ACM) does, I see as much stereotyping among that clique of scholars as they accuse the ACM of doing to new religious movements. I have studied the books and been to many conferences where I delivered papers on both sides of this fence. Both sides are guilty of some stereotyping over this hot button problem. The split as I see it comes as much from academic and territorial jealousy as it does from point of view. One has only to sit in a courtroom to witness this split as ?experts? pontificate under oath! The non-monolithic, highly diversified ACM is primarily driven by a desire to fix a problem and to help victims heal. Most academics in sociology of religions are trained to sustain a liberal, comparative understanding of religious movements and cults by any other name. They prefer to observe the evolution of these groups while avoiding conflict with them?unless, of course, it is the ACM!

I have mined gold and diamonds from both sides to carry on my work with ex-members. Erin has yet to find value in the more expanded and dynamic views of what she calls the ACM. One barrier is language. As long as one continues to form concepts about a group based on a pejorative notion, new values, thoughts and ideas can remain blocked from awareness. (As I see it, psychological and social constriction is what people commonly mean by brainwashing). Sociologists of religion who tend to tolerate ?new religious movements? have been railing about the pejorative use of ?cult? for decades. They are entirely correct but what some scholars do not always see is how that sharp insight cuts both ways.

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Unread post by California Dreamin' » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:21 pm

Joe-

I'm half-way through reading this book, and your review is like a bonus chapter inserted in the middle of the book. Thank you for writing it.

There are so many red flags waving about JZR/RSE in The Prophet's Daughter. I'm underlining all of the similar modes of operation between Elizabeth Clare Prophet's development of C.U.T. and JZ Knight's RSE imitation version. It's as if C.U.T. is the prototype for RSE. Astounding:!:

"JZ KNIGHT, YOU ARE BUSTED, EXPOSED. SHAME ON YOU."

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:11 pm

Excellent review,

Thank you Joe.

I will certainly read Erin Prophet's book.

David
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Unread post by California Dreamin' » Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:38 pm

I really enjoyed reading this book. JZR uses many of the same tactics as ECP.

Bet you won't find this book on RSE's recommended reading list. :wink:

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Unread post by Caterpillar » Sat May 30, 2009 3:38 am

Thanks everyone for the interesting info here.

I got the impression from Sean Prophet?s interview that his mum, Elizabeth believes in her ?imaginary friends? and their teachings. Sean thinks she made it up.

From Joe?s post, Erin mentioned that her mum has epilepsy from an early age and was also on medications for it.

This is copied from Wikipedia about epilepsy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epilepsy

History and stigma

"The word epilepsy is derived from the Greek epilepsia, which in turn can be broken into epi- (upon) and lepsis (to take hold of, or seizure)[47] In the past, epilepsy was associated with religious experiences and even demonic possession. In ancient times, epilepsy was known as the "Sacred Disease" because people thought that epileptic seizures were a form of attack by demons, or that the visions experienced by persons with epilepsy were sent by the gods. Among animist Hmong families, for example, epilepsy was understood as an attack by an evil spirit, but the affected person could become revered as a shaman through these otherworldly experiences.[48]"



Many of the antiepileptic medications list potential psychiatric adverse effects such as hallucinations, psychosis and abnormal behavior in their product information. It seems that epilepsy and possibly side effects of antiepileptic drugs may have been a contributing factor to Elizabeth?s visions.

Is there a similar ?excuse? for JZ? From the posts here, CUT appears to be a cookie cutter for RSE. From other posts, there has been evidence of JZ reading certain books and Ramtha giving the same teachings ?coincidentally?. In recent years, JZ and Ramtha sound similar except for the hairstyle and costume. The list goes on ...

Evidence seems to suggest that JZ is a CHARLATAN rather than an ?ignorant? mentally ill person.

JZ, you are so busted! See you in court ? :twisted:

Caterpillar
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:11 am

Unread post by Caterpillar » Sat May 30, 2009 4:54 am

I had a look at Erin Prophet's website: http://www.prophetsdaughter.com/

In the 'Photos' section, the stage for the CUT events looks SO similar to RSE. :shock:

JZ, SEE YOU IN COURT ... :twisted:

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