Marjoe Gortner

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Marjoe Gortner

Unread post by David McCarthy » Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:40 am

Marjoe Gortner was an ordained preacher at the age of four,
In his late twenties he confessed he was a fraud in the documentary "Marjoe".
In 1972 it won an Academy Award for best documentary.
The name "Marjoe" is a combination of the names "Mary" and "Joseph".
What is really astounding is....Marjoe never believed in God.

More later..

David.

*******************

YouTube - Marjoe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNt8VUvvBEU



________________________________________

Marjoe Gortner interview
"I don't have any power," he started off, just to set the record straight. "And neither do any of these other guys. Hundreds of people were healed at my crusades, but I know damn well it was nothing I was doing."
Yet, Marjoe admitted, he remained somewhat baffled by the thousands of souls he helped to "save" and the numerous illnesses he seemed to have cured. His own insight into his preaching skills was on a decidedly earthly level. Based on his years of training and experience, he located the source of his divine power squarely out among the flocks who assembled to receive his gifts.
by Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman.

Marjoe Gortner was the first Evangelical preacher to blow the whistle on his profession. In his documentary film, Marjoe, made in the late sixties, he revealed age-old tricks of the trade and exposed some of the entertainment aspects of the popular movement that have made it big business.
From the beginning, his preaching skills were meticulously cultivated. Before he learned to say "Mamma" or "Poppa," he was taught to sing "Hallelujah!" When he was nine months old his mother taught him the right way to shout "Glory!" into the microphone. At three, he could preach the gospel from memory, and he received drama coaching and instruction in every performing art from saxophone playing to baton twirling. On Halloween, 1948, at the age of four, Marjoe was officially ordained and thrust into a wildly successful career as the Shirley Temple of America's Bible Belt, the sprawling non-geographic community of strict adherents to the Christian scriptures. In the following decade he preached to packed tents and houses coast to coast, as enthusiastic audiences flocked to see the Miracle Child who allegedly received sermons from the Lord in his sleep. Owing to his mother's careful training, harsh discipline, and indomitable ambition, Marjoe's sermons were flawlessly memorized, right down to each perfectly timed pause and gesture. Frequent Hallelujahs and Amens punctuated his performances, which were cleverly promoted with titles such as "From Wheelchair to Pulpit" and "Heading for the Last Roundup," which Marjoe preached wearing a cowboy suit.
Marjoe's captivating sermons rarely failed to fill the church collection plate to the brim, and his renowned faith healings were miraculous even to him. In his teens, however, Marjoe grew disenchanted with the continued deception of his divine powers. He left the Evangelical movement in search of more legitimate means of employment. He spent some time in a rock band, trying to move with the changing times; then he returned to the Evangelical circuit to make his revealing motion picture. Marjoe is one of those frank films that delves deeply into sensitive areas of American morality that slip over the line into profiteering.
We found Marjoe in Hollywood last year, where he now resides on a secluded hilltop estate in Laurel Canyon. After we drove up the winding dirt road that leads to his lofty home, Marjoe greeted us cordially and ushered us into his sunken living room, where he pointed out some familiar features of the sprawling southern California landscape visible through his wall-sized picture window. We told him that we had come to hear about his miraculous powers of "saving" and "healing," trade secrets that neither his film nor his subsequent biography unraveled satisfactorily. Tall, handsome, with lion-colored curls and a penetrating stare, even in T-shirt and faded jeans Marjoe had an air of power about him. From the outset of our talk, however, he squashed all notions we might have had that his talents were in any way extraordinary.
"I don't have any power," he started off, just to set the record straight. "And neither do any of these other guys. Hundreds of people were healed at my crusades, but I know damn well it was nothing I was doing."
Yet, Marjoe admitted, he remained somewhat baffled by the thousands of souls he helped to "save" and the numerous illnesses he seemed to have cured. His own insight into his preaching skills was on a decidedly earthly level. Based on his years of training and experience, he located the source of his divine power squarely out among the flocks who assembled to receive his gifts.
"You start with a guy who obviously has a problem," he explained. "You've got to begin on that premise. Things haven't worked out for him, or he's looking for something, or whatever. So he goes to one of these revivals. He hears very regimented things. He sees a lot of people glowing around him -- people who seem very, very happy -- and they're all inviting him to come in and join the clique and it looks great. They say, 'Hey, my life was changed!' or 'Hey, I found a new job!' That's when he's ready to get saved, or Born Again; and once he's saved, they all pat him on the back. It's like he's been admitted to this very special elite little club."
Marjoe downplayed his own role in the proceedings. As he saw it, the real show was in the audience; he served primarily as a conductor.
"As a preacher," he said, "I'm working with the crowd, watching the crowd, trying to bring them to that high point at a certain time in the evening. I let everything build up to that moment when they're all in ecstasy. The crowd builds up and you have to watch it that you don't stop it. You start off saying you've heard that tonight's going to be a great night; then you begin the whole pitch and keep it rolling."
For Marjoe, who has seen it a million times, the divine moment of religious ecstasy has no mystical quality at all. It is a simple matter of group frenzy that has its counterpart in every crowd.
"It's the same at a rock-and-roll concert," he asserted. "You have an opening number with a strong entrance; then you go through a lot of the old standards, building up to your hit song at the end."
The hit song, however, is spiritual rebirth, the product of a time-tested recipe for religion to which the preacher and every member of the audience contribute some small but active ingredient. Then, according to Marjoe, the only fitting encore to the overwhelming moment of becoming saved is a personal demonstration of the power of that newfound faith. This is the motivating factor that prompts speaking in tongues, also known as the "receiving of the glossolalia." As Marjoe explained it, this well-known Evangelical tradition requires even greater audience participation on the part of the tongues recipient and the entire audience.
"After you've been saved," Marjoe continued, "the next step is what they call 'the infilling of the Holy Spirit.' They say to the new convert, 'Well, now you're saved, but you've got to get the Holy Ghost.' So you come back to get the tongues experience. Some people will get it the same night; others will go for weeks or years before they can speak in tongues. You hear it, you hear everyone at night talking in it in the church, and they're all saying, 'We love you and we hope you're going to get it by tonight.' Then one night you go down there and they all try to get you to get it, and you go into very much of a trance -- not quite a frenzy, but it is an incredible experience.
"During that moment the person forgets all about his problems. He is surrounded by people whom he trusts and they're all saying, 'We love you. It's okay. You're accepted in Christ. We're with you, let it go, relax.' And sooner or later, he starts to speak it out and go dut-dut-dut. Then everyone goes, 'That's it! You've got it!' and the button is pushed and he will in fact start to speak in tongues and just take off: dehan-dayelo-mosatay-leesaso ... and on and on."
Marjoe paused. Flo was dumbfounded by his demonstration, although he hadn't gone into the jerking, trance-like ecstasy that is commonly associated with the tongues movement. I'd seen the classic version in his movie, yet even in this restrained demonstration, Marjoe appeared to be triggering some internal releasing or babbling mechanism. I asked him how he brought it about.
"You'll never get with that attitude," he joked. Then he went on to explain the true nature of the experience. His perspective showed it to be a process that requires a great deal of effort to master.
"Tongues is something you learn," he emphasized. "It is a releasing that you teach yourself. You are told by your peers, the church, and the Bible -- if you accept it literally -- that the Holy Ghost spake in another tongue; you become convinced that it is the ultimate expression of the spirit flowing through you. The first time maybe you'll just go dut-dut-dut-dut, and that's about all that will get out. Then you'll hear other people and next night you may go dut-dut-dut-UM-dut-DEET-dut-dut, and it gets a little better. The next thing you know, it's ela-hando-satelay-eek-condele-mosandrey-aseya ... and it's a new language you've got down."
Except that, according to Marjoe, it's not a real language at all. Contrary to most religious understanding, speaking in tongues is by no means passive spiritual possession. It must be actively acquired and practiced. Although the "gift" of tongues is a product of human and not supernatural origin, Marjoe displayed tremendous respect for the experience as an expression of spirituality and fellowship.
"I really don't put it down," he said. "I never have. It's just that I analyze it and look at it from a very rational point of view. I don't see it as coming from God and say that at a certain point the Holy Spirit zaps you with a super whammy on the head and you've 'gone for tongues' and there is it. Tongues is a process that people build up to. Then, as you start to do something, just as when you practice the scales on the piano, you get better at it."
Already, we could see the difference between Marjoe and some of his modern-day fellow preachers and pretenders. Unlike many cult, group, and Evangelical leaders, Marjoe has always held his congregation in high regard. During his years on the Bible Belt circuit, he came to see the Evangelical experience as a form of popular entertainment, a kind of participatory divine theater that provides its audiences with profound emotional rewards. Marjoe realized that his perspective would not be shared by most Born Again Christians.
"The people who are out there don't see it as entertainment," he confessed, "although that is in fact the way it is. These people don't go to movies; they don't go to bars and drink; they don't go to rock-and-roll concerts -- but everyone has to have an emotional release. So they go to revivals and they dance around and talk in tongues. It's socially approved and that is their escape."
Within that context of social entertainment, Marjoe took pride in his starring role as a traveling evangelist.
"It was my duty to give them the best show possible," he said. "Say you've got a timid little preacher in North Carolina or somewhere. He'll bring in visiting evangelists to keep his church going. We'd come in and hit the crowd up and we were superstars. It's the charisma of the evangelist that the audience believes in and comes to see."
What got to Marjoe, he explained, and eventually drove him out of the business were many of the same disturbing aspects of the Evangelical movement we had noticed in our own travels and interviews.
"When I was traveling," he said, looking back on the old days, "I'd see someone who wanted to get saved in one of my meetings, and he was so open and bubbly in his desire to get the Holy Ghost. It was wonderful and very fresh, but four years later I'd return and that person might be a hard-nosed intolerant Christian because he had Christ. That's when the danger comes in. People want an experience. They want to feel good, and their lives can be helped by it. But then as you start moving into the operation of the thing, you get into controlling people and power and money."
Marjoe shook his head sadly. Indeed, he didn't strike us as the type of person who would be comfortable in that role. In the sixties, while he was exploring new outlets for his talents, he watched his former profession grow to vast international dimensions. Since then, he has followed the curious rise of America's religious cults, among them Reverend Moon's Unification Church.
"Moon is doing the same thing I do," said Marjoe, "only he's taken it one step further. He's suggesting to people that he is the Messiah. In my religion, the old-time religion, it's total blasphemy to suggest that. Moon has gone too far, but that's a heavy number on people, because everyone wants to meet a Messiah."
Marjoe was quick to point out that Moon's preaching powers, like his own, are by no means divine or even innate. Marjoe acknowledges that his power over an audience derives primarily from the skills of rhetoric and public speaking that have been passed down to us from the Greeks. Those tools have long been in the public domain, and they make up the stock-in-trade of everyone whose work involves personal contact with other individuals and groups.
"It's the same whether you're a preacher, a lawyer, or a salesman," he told us. "You start off with a person's thought processes and then gradually sway him around to another way of thinking in a very short time."
Although Marjoe no longer consciences the use of his preaching talents for evangelical purposes, he still uses his skills in areas that have nothing to do with religion.
"I was campaigning for Jerry Brown when he was running for governor," he said. "I gave speeches when he couldn't show up. This was a whole different kind of speech for me, because I didn't know the people and the whole thing was political. One time I was supposed to go to a rally for a thousand AFL-CIO workers in San Francisco, and I thought, Oh, no, how am I going to talk to these guys? I needed a hook to get the audience, because I knew a person's mind is usually made up within the first minute or so. If they like you and you say the right things at first, then you can take them on to other things they might not ordinarily agree with. But all I had to go on was that, and structures of speech I knew from preaching."
He paused again, allowing us a moment to consider his predicament.
"When I got there they were a little hostile," he continued, "and I was very nervous about it. There was a podium with two flags on it, an American flag and a California state flag. I walked up -- it was very quiet -- and as I was walking up there it came to me, I don't know from where. I grabbed the American flag and I crinkled it in my hand. I looked at it and sort of gave it a little toss back against the wall and said, 'I remember when Betsy Ross made that flag. Today it's made in Japan.' Well, a roar went up as that struck a chord in those workers, and I was God from that moment on."
Today Marjoe restricts the use of his talents to his acting career and to social causes he deeply believes in. Foremost among those causes is informing the public about some of the rhetorical techniques that are being used to manipulate their thoughts and emotions. Most techniques Marjoe is in command of are simple and age-old, but so effective that they can be equally powerful even when and audience has been explicitly forewarned of their use. Toward the end of our conversation, Marjoe told us a story that revealed the fineness of his rhetorical skills. In contrast to the massive physical experiences such as intense group rituals and intimate personal crises that have been recognized as major contributors to the snapping moment, Marjoe demonstrated how words alone, artfully manipulated, may be used to influence groups and individuals, even to the point of evoking the overwhelming emotional response of being "saved."
"I lecture in about twenty colleges a year," he began, "and I do a faith-healing demonstration -- but I always make them ask for it. I tell them that I don't believe in it, that I use a lot of tricks; the title of the lecture is 'Rhetoric and Charisma,' so I've already told them the whole rap explaining how it's done, but they still want to see it. So I throw it all right back at them. I say, 'No, you don't really want to see it.' And they say, 'Oh, yes. We do. We do!' And I say, 'But you don't believe in it anyway, so I can't do it.' And they say, 'We believe. We believe!' So after about twenty minutes of this I ask for a volunteer, and I have a girl come up and I say, 'So you want to feel better?' And I say, 'You're lying to me! You're just up here for a good time and you want to impress all these people and you want to make an ass out of me and an ass out of this whole thing, so why don't you just go back and sit down?' I get really hard on her, and she says, 'No, no, I believe!' And I keep going back and forth until she's almost in tears. And then, even though this is in a college crowd and I'm only doing it as a joke, I just say my same old line, In the name of Jesus! and touch them on the head, and wham, they fall down flat every time."

Marjoe Gortner
by Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman link?
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/marjoe.htm

Marjoe Gortner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjoe_Gortner
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

Another Dimension60
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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:22 pm

Thank you so much David for this article.
It so well articulates what so many of us have known, and at least for me, unable to "prove", let alone so clearly explain. Marjoe could have been describing my first Ramtha Dialogue experience - exactly - scary.... He makes very good points about the influence of the 'crowd'...in our focus here on JZs stuff, we haven't talked much about this dynamic.
At the same time, I've been thinking about the 'charismatic personality'/narcissistic and/or alcoholic and/or sel-centerd personality -- and how, even beyond recognizing the fraud that JZ is and healing from the experience, is the recognition of similar cons and personalities in our lives... ... There was a period of time when I felt 'surrounded' by such personalities at work and home... ... I was just told yesterday about a tv article of a millionaire salesman and his conning techniques. What's interesting is Marjoe's self awareness. The narcissistic folks I've experienced like JZ and some others is the utter absence of self-awareness. - WWhich means that I have to become more aware. There are some common characteristics/behaviors I?m coming to recognize about people who seem so charismatic i.e. you just like them almost immediately ? and you believe when they tell you how special they are in some special way ?and feel so compassionate when they tell you how much they?ve suffered while somehow ignoring or at the least trivializing your suffering; they?re very ?bright?/intelligent; gifted in telling a story; offer some special Information that?s not ?common knowledge?; always always bring a conversation back to themselves; always always have to be the center of attention; can behave in atrocious ways but are never responsible ? it?s always always the other person?s/people?s fault; brag about how well they can do something and after you got involved somehow/paid them you find out they aren?t as good as they?ve convinced you they are ? I?ve become very leery of people, who in first meeting, tell me how great they are!! The kicker for me about this type of personality is how love-able the person is ? and in fact, you/I sincerely love them ? and they ultimately hurt us one way or another, time and time again. They betray us, or accuse and judge us, curse at us or just abandon us- always making us feel wrong. The frustrating thing is that there?s hardly a way to warn others ? as we who have left JZ?s world have found? How many Ramsters have read these posts and stay in denial and blindness?. Fortunately, there are enough who do see to keep us going.
I know there have been professional articles posted here re this type of personality ? the above is based on my experiences in my life, including here.

thanks again David - I'd never heard of the guy...

ordinarymind
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Unread post by ordinarymind » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:58 pm

Thanks David for the great article ?and thanks AD60 for your post . ..I almost didn?t read the article David posted because it seemed so long ?short attention span this morning I guess!! ?.I think that is such an important point about the power of the crowd ?and I hadn?t thought of that before . ..but yeah, it sure explains my experience at my first dialogue too

journeythroughramthaland
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Unread post by journeythroughramthaland » Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:00 pm

Hey David,

Marjoe is a great example for x and current rse students. To my knowlage he is one of the few which come clean , clearly and explain the nuances of his trade. One should still be able to find his autobiography also titled "Marjoe. A fascinating read!
Thanks for the post. I tried to get a hold of him several times to see If I could get to interview him and get his tale on R/JZ but was unsuccessful. I had tracked him through the screen actors guild which no longer had any info on his agent or how to reach him. If anyone else knows any info about where he might be found, please let me know.
"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."
-William Mizner

Marie
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Unread post by Marie » Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:42 am

There are some common characteristics/behaviors I?m coming to recognize about people who seem so charismatic i.e. you just like them almost immediately ? and you believe when they tell you how special they are in some special way ?and feel so compassionate when they tell you how much they?ve suffered while somehow ignoring or at the least trivializing your suffering; they?re very ?bright?/intelligent; gifted in telling a story; offer some special Information that?s not ?common knowledge?; always always bring a conversation back to themselves; always always have to be the center of attention; can behave in atrocious ways but are never responsible ? it?s always always the other person?s/people?s fault; brag about how well they can do something and after you got involved somehow/paid them you find out they aren?t as good as they?ve convinced you they are
AD60 -- I am reading The Sociopath Next Door" and that pretty much sums up the author's description of a true sociopath. Especially the "take no responsibilty" part and the bids for sympathy. The author says that she believes sociopaths are not able to feel the same emotions that "normal" people do, so therefore feel no obligation toward others and see people merely as game pieces to obtain what they want. They use our compassion for others against us and as a tool to again, get what they want. Life for them is reduced to winning, being one up on, as there is no joy or sadness or any gray areas inbetween in human relationships because there is no feeling about them one way or the other.

Wakeup-Call
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Unread post by Wakeup-Call » Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:05 am

Great article! Thanks so much for posting it.

California Dreamin'
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Unread post by California Dreamin' » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:05 am

I just rented Marjoe the movie. Fascinating. The people in his audience reminded me somewhat of the zealous ramsters attending RSE events. They were screaming, dancing, shaking and totally caught up in the moment. No critical thinking going on in those audiences. The folks were lining up to give Marjoe money, property, vehicles etc, and he then admittedly laughed all the way to the bank.

He even had a gimmick where he put an invisible "potion" on his forehead that would turn into a substance that actually resembled blood, and his followers believed they were witnessing an actual (if there is such a thing) stigmata event.

Actually, now that I think of it I'm surprised that JZR hasn't passed baskets around the arena to collect money for her masters fund. Hope I didn't give her any ideas.:twisted:

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Judiths "bucket event? ...!

Unread post by David McCarthy » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:58 am

Actually, now that I think of it I'm surprised that JZR hasn't passed baskets around the arena to collect money for her masters fund. Hope I didn't give her any ideas.Twisted Evil
Hi California Dreamin', thank you everyone for your posts.

Actually...JZR did pass the bucket around back in 1992... I was there that night.
Ive mentioned this before.
JZR called an urgent event....she came out totally distraught and in tears...
claiming that the "Grey Men"... 'One World Order"..! were conspiring with the IRS to shut RSE down, that
?they? had falsified her IRS tax returns and were demanding a fortune in unpaid taxes,
they were about to shut RSE down unless she paid them off. She asked the "students' for donations to help save their school.....
Just how much money Judith defrauded from RSE members at that event, only she....and perhaps JO knows??
The truth finally surfaced during an RSE "wine ceremony" a few years later, when Judith confessed she had lied. :(
'Tree"" were you there for those particular RSE events?.

Some of you reading this account may be thinking...Well how stupid can these people be? They must all be a bunch of sheep...!
Then I would ask you this...
Would you consider those who's lives has been devastated by a sociopath, to be fools also?
If so, I suggest you educate yourself into the nature of a sociopaths, brainwashing and mind control within our society.
Here is a good start..
Sociopathic Behavior...
http://uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/diss ... pathy.html

Inside the Mind of a Sociopath...
http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/spath.htm

Also, please consider this?
For entrenched RSE members to consider that JZ Knight and Ramtha may be "one and the same", is near impossible..
Even to the point that if JZ Knight confessed she was a total fraud, and then apologized for her deceptions?.
many RSE members will brush off her statement as a test of their faith in 'Ramtha" and his "teachings". that JZ Knight is only human after all...! But "Ramtha the enlightened One" is real.
Most will take their faith, trust and 'love" for ?Ramtha? to their grave. Tragically many RSE members have done so already.
This is the nature of religious ?thought reform?.... being carried out in RSE.

Lifton's Thought Reform...
http://changingminds.org/techniques/con ... reform.htm

Margaret Singer - Google Video link...
http://video.google.com/videosearch?num ... l=en&emb=0

People do not join cults...
They get recruited...!

Margaret Singer.

The Marjoe Gortner video is well worth viewing.

David.
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

Tree
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Unread post by Tree » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:32 pm

The truth finally surfaced during an RSE "wine ceremony" a few years later, when Judith confessed she had lied.
'Tree".. were you there for those particular RSE events?.
yes, I was at those events.

You know, I totally recall having confusing thoughts while this was going.
But I later "rationalized as a fully indoctrinated student" that these were just "tests" of my own doubt.

I think when I started seeing fellow staff members having even more radical views than myself
("what? you are passing on cleaning the leaves in her gutter? JZ is the second Christ, for crying out loud!
How can you pass up that opportunity for $8/ an hour??!!") that was part of the parade
of red flags.

I, too, am reading the Sociopath next door.
Utterly fascinating how many sociopaths are out there.
And in such varied forms.
Amazing.

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:11 pm

Thank you tree,
But I later "rationalized as a fully indoctrinated student" that these were just "tests" of my own doubt.
Remember that 'Ramtha" line "Doubt is the sword of the image"?
It sounded so profound at the time, It was just one of the many "Thought stopping clich?s" banded around by JZR.
tree, I was told that after Judith confessed she had lied,, she offered to give back the money, this was at least eight years down the track...!

Dear Judith...
Why not send a letter out to every RSE member that attended your 1992 IRS/Greymen conspiracy event,
offering to give back the money you stole, with a full explanation and apology for your actions?.

I am waiting....
you have my address....


David.

Thought-terminating clich? - Wikipedia,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-te ... lich%C3%A9
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

joe sz
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stigmata

Unread post by joe sz » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:04 am

Dreamin...as to
"He even had a gimmick where he put an invisible "potion" on his forehead that would turn into a substance that actually resembled blood, and his followers believed they were witnessing an actual (if there is such a thing) stigmata event."

Jim Jones used to fake stigmata also with magicians "blood" but there is a "real" thing. many cases have been documented of believers in ecstasy seeping blood from the palms of their hands and perhaps forehead. This seepage can be painful and come on unexpectedly once it starts, say when you are out eating with friends at a restaurant. Therapeutic hypnosis can reverse the self-suggestion and the inadvertant occurance of "stigmata" disappears.

I have a video done @20 years ago showing this with a young black woman with stigmata and how the hypnotist reversed the problem.
I say problem or affliction because this brings up the very real question of the miraculous and whether a miracle is necessarily holy?

Miracles or supernatural phenomena including real stigmata are NO indication of ethics, goodness, or holiness. Most often these things are faked anyway or real phenomena that are poorly understood.

but, yes, real blood can, in rare instances, seep out of the palms or some skin surface of a believer and quite profusely.

The evidence of modern stigmata gives credence, for example, that Jesus
could have "sweat blood" in Gethsemene during his "agony in the garden."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmata#N ... n_stigmata

http://www.assap.org/newsite/articles/Stigmata.html


btw, David, the marjoe film was a great catch. We used to use it aften in the 1980s for exit cousneling people from evangelical/charismatic cults. very effective.

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:19 am

Hi Joe..
Miracles or supernatural phenomena including real stigmata are NO indication of ethics, goodness, or holiness. Most often these things are faked anyway or real phenomena that are poorly understood.
This is an issue I have struggled to wrap my mind around for many moons.
The RSE doctrines totally cement so called ?supernatural phenomena/powers" with spirituality.
But in reality, the complete opposite could also be truth.
Who says that highly intelligent, ?supernatural? beings cannot also be malevolent?
Why would anyone think "channeling" information from a so called discarnate person is even spiritual?
Has society removed itself so far from the meaning of the word ?spiritual?,
That it can only relate to its meaning as a religious or sacred thing, rather than worldly things,
Such as, how are we treating one another?
I think in the "New Age" movement with people like JZ Knight at the helm,
many have boarded the Titanic .... of a fundamental "spiritual" misunderstanding.

David.
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

California Dreamin'
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Unread post by California Dreamin' » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:21 am

JOE SAID:
"but, yes, real blood can, in rare instances, seep out of the palms or some skin surface of a believer and quite profusely.

The evidence of modern stigmata gives credence, for example, that Jesus
could have "sweat blood" in Gethsemene during his "agony in the garden."


Joe, my experience is that at this stage of my recovery from RSE I am reluctant to believe ANYTHING that smacks of the supernatural.

Unfortunately, whereas I once could see, I now am blind.

Tree
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Unread post by Tree » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:37 am

I totally can get what you are saying California.

Give this topic some time.
No amount of Joe's or anyone else's references are going
to add to your cause right now in this department.

Time and space from the topic at hand......

California Dreamin'
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Unread post by California Dreamin' » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:49 am

CALIFORNIA DREAMIN' SAID:

"my experience is that at this stage of my recovery from RSE I am reluctant to believe ANYTHING that smacks of the supernatural."



I feel the need to clarify this statement that I made -- I have personally experienced supernatural experiences, and those I accept. However, I don't think I could recreate these experiences.

Tree
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Unread post by Tree » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:31 pm

I have personally experienced supernatural experiences, and those I accept. However, I don't think I could recreate these experiences.
I could say the same thing.

Maybe these cases of stigmata are just that.
I am not in those person's shoes,
nor do I know if they are a part of thought reform
and mind control.

I know for me, I have experienced, for instance, staying dry in a 3' wide birth in a snow storm doing
Tahumo at the Ranch.
Do I believe it actually happened? Yes
Do I think I could re-create that? I think it is possible but most likely no.

nor do I think do I have a decent explanation for people finding their cards
and the wave of elation that goes along with that experience.

Do I think that young kid (Eric-Charlie's son) bio located? quite possibly.
Do I think Rambles made &^%* up about several people bio locating in the tank? heck ya.

At this point, I am very skeptical of anyone who claims they can do para normal things.
David Blaine does a great job of performing such feats under the guise of the title: Illusionist.

I am not going to take anyone at face value anymore.

California Dreamin'
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Unread post by California Dreamin' » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:49 pm

"At this point, I am very skeptical of anyone who claims they can do para normal things.
David Blaine does a great job of performing such feats under the guise of the title: Illusionist.
I am not going to take anyone at face value anymore."



Para normal - those were the words I was looking for when I said 'supernatural.'

I too have experienced a fair share of manifestations at the ranch, but I've had a greater number of para normal manifestations in other surroundings, most of which happened before I began RSE in 1988, and I didn't have to focus for hours or be blindfolded, hungry, and tired for my non-RSE manifestations to occur.

California Dreamin'
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Unread post by California Dreamin' » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:22 pm

DAVID SAID:

"For entrenched RSE members to consider that JZ Knight and Ramtha may be "one and the same", is near impossible..
Even to the point that if JZ Knight confessed she was a total fraud, and then apologized for her deceptions?.
many RSE members will brush off her statement as a test of their faith in 'Ramtha" and his "teachings". that JZ Knight is only human after all...! But "Ramtha the enlightened One" is real.
Most will take their faith, trust and 'love" for ?Ramtha? to their grave. Tragically many RSE members have done so already.
This is the nature of religious ?thought reform?.... being carried out in RSE. "


Several evenings ago I visited with one of my ramster friends who has in RSE since at lelast 1985. I told her for the first time about my revelations about JZ, Ramtha and RSE. Told her about how I discovered the EMF website, and how things began to click for me while I was reading the experiences of ex-RSE students. She was receptive to hearing my point of view, but steadfastly held her ground in defense of everything Ramtha.

When I told told about all of the plagiarized teachings and reminded her of all the times Ramtha would admittedly lie and flip-flop his statements and prophecies from event-to-event, she replied "I know Ramtha lies. HE TOLD US HE WILL LIE TO US TO BEND US TO HIS WILL. That's what I love about the teachings -- they are so 'organic.' Always changing. Never know what to expect." When I mentioned JZ selling shares of JZK Inc in a private offering she thought that was fantastic. Said that JZ is manifesting her fabulous wealth.

As for the plagiarized teachings, my friend's defense of JZ was "It doesn't matter to me where the information and techniques (mirror work, blue webbing, etc, ) originated. I love that I keep learning when I go to events." Told her Masters of the Far East is fiction and she just smiled.

This very same friend is frantic because she cannot afford the $2,000 she needs to cover the blue body event so she will have to miss it. She told me she will go to the school for the "remainder of her life" regardless of what I shared with her. Now THAT is really being "brainwashed."

Tree
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Unread post by Tree » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:24 pm

it could be a blessing in disguise that she,
along with a few hundred others,
miss their primary event.

I personally know of 3 people who, after missing a required,
found their way to the other side.
It took missing an event and living through the perceived
pressure of "having to get to my required event!"

Other than that silly "please, please come to your event" letter
from jz,
I hope he economy DOES keep people away.
Maye then they will have a chance for some semblence of even the
tiniest trickle of discrepencies to bleed through.

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G2G
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Unread post by G2G » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:54 pm

Quote: "HE TOLD US HE WILL LIE TO US TO BEND US TO HIS WILL."


Oh yes indeed! We don't wish to utilize our OWN free will, we just all want to forced into jzrk's "will" and be little rats crawling through mud and mazes! :lol:

Thanks, but no thanks. My free will is mine alone, and why would I wish it to be "bent" in any manner!? :roll: :roll: :roll:

"In the beginning, it was good." :wink: After that, red flags popped up and I chose to ignore them. Then, some teachers were downright mean and nasty, and if that was "enlightenment," I was much closer to it prior to going to jzrk's muddy fields, itchy arstro-turf, and listening to drunken sexual revelations and a poor guy being punched in the chest. When I look back now --THAT was enlightening --get out and never go back.
:o
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972

ex
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Unread post by ex » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:14 pm

but steadfastly held her ground in defense of everything Ramtha[quote]i did this too after a year of not going. it clearly is part of the brainwash.[/quote]

joe sz
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Unread post by joe sz » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:44 am

CD said
Joe, my experience is that at this stage of my recovery from RSE I am reluctant to believe ANYTHING that smacks of the supernatural.
I can easily sympathize with that. There are more important things to do than sort out whether a historical figure experienced blood sweat and tears.

but I still enjoy the search for reality based explanations if there are any :wink:

Caterpillar
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Unread post by Caterpillar » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:22 pm

David, thank you for the info and video links to Marjoe. It clearly shows how we are so easily influenced. I note the hand raising and yes he can phrases. Loud music, dancing, peer pressure - sounds familiar. Just want to believe in something, anything even a 35,000 year old being.

I was inspired to start my own 'cult' $$$ :lol: Hallelujah - Praise the Lord, Brother! Is there any rich, famous, attractive blonde on EMF?

Caterpillar waking up.

Caterpillar
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Unread post by Caterpillar » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:05 pm

Found this article on Marjoe's experience of a 'cult'. http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/ouimag74.htm

Would be interesting if he ever went to RSE.


Caterpillar

Another Dimension60
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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:36 pm

caterpillar - me thinks you are already an exquisite butterfly disguising yourself as a caterpillar :D

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