Open for discussion and exchange of views.
- David McCarthy
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MCCARTHY: September the 1st 2008, and we're with Glen Cunningham.
Glen was with RSE in the early '90s, late '80s and is a key, one of the key people in my mind, that was part of the RSE organization, so thank you Glen, I really appreciate your willingness to tell your story and to help others that have been through this experience and perhaps are struggling to try and understand what it all means and what created this.
I'm going to start off with a question here, when did you first hear about Ramtha, JZ Knight'
CUNNINGHAM: About 1984. a friend gave us a tape, and we watched the Hawaiian tapes they called, they called them the Hawaiian tapes , and my wife was completely hooked and gave up her suicidal tendencies so I couldn't see anything wrong with them at that time, so we continued to get more tapes and go to events and follow' and when my wife found out where Yelm was she wanted to go there and see, so we made a trip up here and I loved the country it was great, so we quit our jobs and moved. We got here in August of '86.
MCCARTHY: So your wife was really instigating the whole move, to be here'
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, oh yeah.
MCCARTHY: And you accepted that quite easily'
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, I was in love, you know I loved my wife and couldn't see anything wrong with it because she was bipolar and had a lot of problems which we didn't know what bipolar or anything was but this gave, she was always talking about suicide, and this gave her something to live for and I was happy because I no longer had to keep talking to her about how life can be happy and you don't have to kill yourself, so it made a difference in our lives that she was totally happy but she became so immersed in the tapes that she listened to them every waking moment had a set of earphones on and that's all she did was listen to tapes and go to every event she could go to.
MCCARTHY: How did it affect your marriage'
CUNNINGHAM: In two months after moving here she found out that becoming god was an alone process and left me.
MCCARTHY: After two months.
CUNNINGHAM: But it was kind of a relief because I was so tired after all that time of talking to her about being happy in life and what you can do and how you can make your own decisions and you don't have to feel that way all the time, I was just at the end of my rope trying to figure out how to make her happy. And apparently she was happy at times when she was listening to the tapes. When she wasn't listening to the tapes she would be crying and not happy with her life but once she would listen to the tapes again they would give her much inspiration and something to live for. So it was a mindset she was getting herself into. And when I say she was listening to the tapes every waking minute, she didn't have a job so that's what she did. She had them on in the house, she listened to them everywhere, in the car, walking around wherever we were, she, whenever I was with her, she had the tapes in her ears.
MCCARTHY: So you eventually ended up working with JZ Knight on a very personal level, how did that come about'
CUNNINGHAM: I ended up being, guarding the gates when we started having events in the arena. I would just stand at one gate to keep people from going into the barn, and upsetting the horses. Her barn manager at that time was Jeannie, and we kind of hit it off, became friends, started dating, and so as the events progressed, they became more and more of them in the arena, it was just natural that she needed a security outfit so I became one of her inside security guards. They had outside guys that carried weapons around and then they had inside guards that just guarded the doors and kept people from hurting themselves or doing something, or going someplace where they shouldn't go.
MCCARTHY: Were the outside security people carrying weapons, were they part of the so-called RSE organization, or were they contracted'
CUNNINGHAM: Absolutely not. No, they were private employees of JZ and they just walked around and patrolled the area, one guy during the day and then one guy at night, so there was somebody there all night long also.
MCCARTHY: Why do you think JZ felt she needed armed guards'
CUNNINGHAM: Well, there was one guy that when Jeff lived with her, before they put up the fence, he threw a rock through a window and was 'trying to get his brother out of the closet.' This guy was a little whacked himself or drunk, but he broke in and hit Jeff and was, because he wanted to free his brother's soul from JZ Knight's closet. He figured that she had taken his soul and put it somewhere, so he wasn't very, he wasn't very stable. I don't know who his brother was, I don't know anything about that, but it was a little frightening for her, to have somebody come in there.
MCCARTHY: I heard it mentioned JZ was shot at, somebody shot at her, what's your feeling about that'
CUNNINGHAM: Well it's been long ago and I was intimate with her, I mean talked to her quite a bit. The only reason I knew the fence was built was for horses, to keep horses from getting onto the freeway. When I went back in 2005 I believe it was, for a Chamber of Commerce thing, she told a story about getting her weed eater shot by a .22 when she was out weed eating, it makes her look more justified in doing a big fence that makes people not see the house and the grounds.
MCCARTHY: Just jumping back a little bit, you met Jeff Knight' Did you know him personally'
MCCARTHY: What was your opinion about him and who he was and his journey'
CUNNINGHAM: Well, he was a gay man, that, I don't like to say that he was in it for the money, but he did have a very nice life, he loved horses and she had enough money to keep him in those horses in a nice big facility to keep trading and riding. And he had his own reasons for being there but as you know he died from AIDS, so he did not give up the gay lifestyle to be with JZ.
MCCARTHY: Right. Jeff would talk about how, when he believed in Ramtha, he believed Ramtha would cure him of AIDS and that kept him'.
CUNNINGHAM: Right, that made him come back after the divorce. And he had a boyfriend named Jeff at that time, that was there and helped him to survive those last few months that he was alive. And Jeff said that he never, he did not know whether Ramtha existed or not because Ramtha would talk through JZ's body in the middle of the night and tell him what he should or shouldn't do and how he should do things and what he should do to keep JZ happy. So he wasn't sure as close as he was whether Ramtha existed or not.
MCCARTHY: Yeah, he did record an interview and he did say that he felt RSE was a very dangerous organization and a cult, but that's a couple of years before he died.
MCCARTHY: Margaret asked you a question earlier, she said did you ever witness anything that may have given you some kind of thought that 'Ramtha' was for real, that these powers were what JZ said they were, or what 'Ramtha' said they were'
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, I have thought about that since she asked me that, and I have even, you know, in the past I have thought about that and I have never in all of my experiences there never saw one thing that Ramtha did that was extraordinary or supernatural in any way, it just didn't happen.
MCCARTHY: So I want to make it clear to the viewers, that you were 'Ramtha's' body guard'
MCCARTHY: That you were by the side of Ramtha walking around the arena, witnessing'
CUNNINGHAM: Every event for a year and a half.
MCCARTHY: For a year and a half'.
MCCARTHY: Because I remember you and thinking about you as wow, who were you in 'Ramtha's' army, obviously somebody very vast, somebody very special and thinking the wounds on your face was from the battles with Ramtha, because I think that is what Ramtha told you once, right'
CUNNINGHAM: He said I was shot in my last life and brought that forward as an emotional mark, so, I don't believe it, but it's a nice story.
MCCARTHY: Did you see that played out in other peoples'.
CUNNINGHAM: Oh yes, I was a culprit to some of these things because being that close to Ramtha people thought I was special and I saw a lot of my friends they would be totally devastated and ready to, well what I thought was, off themselves or you know, do something dangerous because Ramtha never spoke to them or said anything so I would tell them stories that 'Oh, you walked by and Ramtha said 'There's a powerful master,'' and I would tell them stories like that and their whole life would light up and it would give them a reason to live, I would not have to see this depressed person hang dogging around you know, and being totally upset, they couldn't even get into the group high because they felt they weren't worthy. So after I'd tell them something like that then they'd perk up and become part of this and I was probably as guilty as Ramtha of bringing people into this thing and keeping them there, and I feel bad to this day about doing that kind of stuff, but at the time it seemed right for those particular of people.
MCCARTHY: It was a form of damage control maybe'
CUNNINGHAM: That's what I felt I was doing. We had a lot of pot lucks in talking about things after events and you know, I was working for her and I was loyal and so I never spilled the beans or told them anything negative about what I saw, kept it all to myself.
MCCARTHY: Glen, did you at one time believe there was a being called 'Ramtha''
MCCARTHY: You never believed that Ramtha existed'
CUNNINGHAM: No. I met JZ too fast, and once you meet JZ you know Ramtha doesn't exist, and sit down and talk to her on a business or personal level.
MCCARTHY: Did JZ know what you thought'
CUNNINGHAM: No. I was a very good actor.
MCCARTHY: So you were acting the part'..
CUNNINGHAM: 'the part of a loyal follower.
CUNNINGHAM: I did that for a long time.
CUNNINGHAM: Not only did I have that job but I did business with all the people in the community, the Ramtha community, I was, you know, they all thought I was special because of where I was and I would tell them I am not anything special, I'm no different than they were, it's really tough to be, they tried to put me on a pedestal and make a deity out of me and I wouldn't let them, I didn't do that at all.
MCCARTHY: So your partner at the time worked for JZ also'
CUNNINGHAM: Yes, she ran the horse barn, and she was JZ's body guard so she would go shopping with Linda and JZ and make sure they were alright, you know, and there would be people all over the place would recognize them and you did a little interference. There would be people in the events that would wanna come up and Ramtha would be talking or doing something and there'd be a little pause and somebody'd get up to come up and approach Ramtha and I would make them sit down and I would keep them away unless Ramtha gave me the sign that yeah, it's ok to talk, so and there were several times like that that people would talk, but most of the time I kept people away.
MCCARTHY: Glen, did you witness any situations where 'Ramtha', and when I say 'Ramtha', for myself I'm really talking about JZ Knight, but just for clarity' Did you witness anything Ramtha did that was obviously revealing the fakeness of that situation and it was covered or, can you talk about'
CUNNINGHAM: Many, I have many stories. One of the main ones for me was that I, in the early '70s, late '70s, I had my birthmark removed with a laser beam. I was one of the first people in California to go do this, they had the argon gas, they would send it through a laser, cauterize all your capillaries and it would go away. Well, this thing, and I was working in grocery stores, so I was in public all day long, people saw me all day long, well this thing started growing back so I got what they call camouflage makeup, like clowns wear, real heavy stuff, and I would blend it into this birthmark and make it kind of disappear. As a man technically wearing makeup, well one day I'm up there I'm rubbing my eye and scratching it and my fingers are all covered and there's the birthmark showing, you know, so I learned how to scratch my eye like a girl does. You take your little finger and you do this. Well one day we're out in the field standing right beside Ramtha and Ramtha turns around and does this with her fingernail, scratches her little eyelid and looks right up, and I'm taller than her, so looks right up at me and became at that point, knew she had really messed up, so became the most macho Ramtha that afternoon that I had ever saw. Run me back and forth in that field marching, she would put miles and miles and miles on her treadmill in the basement. Thousands of miles, she was really strong in the legs, so me being a little fat boy like I was it was hard for me to keep up with her sometimes, especially when she decided it was time to trudge back to the house really fast, I'd be panting by the time I got there, well we did that four to five times that day out in the field, you know, back and forth, so she taught me a lesson, not to look that close anymore.
MCCARTHY: Glen, I remember you told a story about 'my dear old blue-eyed old lady''Can you tell us'
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, this is when we started doing, we did the cards. I don't know if people realize where the color cards and the colors came from. Omni Magazine which is a science fiction magazine, they do all kinds of different things and on the back of one of those magazines, I used to take it, it was in '82 or '83, there was a back page on how to develop your psychic abilities. And it was sitting with a partner and doing color cards. And you know, some people think there are special properties, in blue, you know or different things. That become one of our exercises. And you had to pair up out in the arena. The place would be full of 800 -- 900 people, something like that, so everybody paired up.
MCCARTHY: Was this remote view''
CUNNINGHAM: Yes, yes.
CUNNINGHAM: Well before this happened, one of the first, before we started doing the cards, one of the first things that happened was we had a little, this is before they put a floor in there, before they would spray down the arena to keep the dust down in there, and then told people to stay there at night, it was one of the first nights, said stay there for the energy. Well there was this little lady, she was 93, and she had piercing blue eyes, just something else, and she was very timid, very slow and kind of teetering and she didn't know whether she wanted to stay there or not, you know, and her family said 'You go ahead and stay,' and her friend with her you know, and I said 'It'll be alright, I'll watch you' and the next day they started doing, you know, where you put your mask on and you run back and forth across the field, well she came up to me and she had begging in her eyes and she said 'I can't do this,' and so I looked at Ramtha and I says 'Can she stay with us'' and he said 'Yes, you'll protect her.' So she stayed with Ramtha while we walked around the field and watched people smash into each other and bloodied their noses and hitting the fence with their skulls and it was quite interesting. So this lady went home from there, died from pneumonia. It was really bad on her lungs, a lot of dust and moisture in the air and everything'
MCCARTHY: What time of year was this'
CUNNINGHAM: It didn't matter what time of year it was, it was probably September or one of those, because it wasn't real rainy or muddy out in the field but it was getting to be nippy, you know, but it didn't' matter because we sprayed the whole arena down with water, and so that it was horse manure, saw dust, and dirt and water on top of that and these people laying out there on their little blankets and stuff and it was just too much moisture for her lungs. So I know she went home and died because her daughter came up to me and told me. So several months later when we started doing these color cards, there was another incident where everybody had to pair up. So right out in the middle of the arena Ramtha and I are standing on the stage, right out in the middle of the arena is another older lady, just the same shape and build and walk as this lady and Ramtha goes 'I need a partner for my little old lady,' and somebody down at that end says 'I don't have anybody,' so the lady started walking towards this woman. You know the arena is not that big but she was walking pretty slow so Ramtha started telling this story about the wonderful soul in this woman and what a great magnificent person she was and if you looked into her piercing BLUE eyes you will see this. Well the little old lady that was out there had BROWN eyes so the two people, I mean the little old lady, looks like this, and the woman across from her looks at Ramtha like that, and I looked at my wife and said 'It's the wrong one!' and she goes 'Shut up!' So I kept quiet about it, but that was another thing. So reading of auras and knowing who the infinite soul, the living entity of somebody, Ramtha can't do that either. So, and that was, that was really blatant, I mean it was a, that I knew right then and there, I mean I already had several things that had happened before, that we spent 14 hours one day on top of the Tank and as the day progressed on, everybody has movements that they do, you know, you have movements, you scratch your eye a certain way, you know, I reach up and scratch a little spot on my head when I'm nervous sometimes or trying to think of something to say, so I watched Ramtha become JZ that day and pull the little T-shirt down over her butt which she did constantly in the house, and watched that for about half a day up there and I went 'Man, she's getting really tired because the more tired Ramtha gets the more JZ comes out.' And I just kept seeing that all day long. That was another one there. But they'd say, the students from the school, will tell you that 'Oh, that's just cellular memory, you know the body remembers to do that, it's not really Ramtha,' I mean, 'It's not really JZ, it was just the body doing that.' So that's one safe way we can justify that.
MCCARTHY: I hear a lot, and I believed it myself at one time, that it can't possibly be JZ because Ramtha has so much knowledge and he can deliver this, all this knowledge in such a package, perhaps for an eight-hour stretch' What's your opinion on that'
CUNNINGHAM: Well, I think she has a photographic memory that remembers everything she's ever read. When I was working in her bedroom I touched something with my foot, lifted up the dust ruffle, there were books, turned face down, picked up a couple of them, read where she highlighted these things, in this book, sentences. I read and I have a pretty good memory and I looked at several of them and put them back, you know, and never thought anything about it until three or four weeks later there was an event and Ramtha started saying exactly what was in those books from the weeks before. And I thought that's a pure genius, somebody that has a mind like that is incredible and I know they were under JZ's bed, not Ramtha's and he couldn't read anyway, remember'
MCCARTHY: My friend, Carroll Cobbs had a similar experience where he was sitting next to a lady and turned to this lady and said 'This is why I'm a member of this fantastic school because this knowledge, this scientific knowledge that Ramtha is teaching right now is not anywhere available on this earth.' Now, Carroll Cobbs is a scientist, he's an academic, the woman pulls out a book and goes to the pages in there and there it is verbatim what was just said, and that was Carroll Cobbs' first step to realize what was going on and he had been around for 18 years as an intellectual in the sense of a scientist, it's interesting'.
CUNNINGHAM: So he hadn't read enough books probably.
MCCARTHY: Well this was the latest book, it had only just come out, and it just happened to be in this womans possession.
CUNNINGHAM: There's been several books that are out of print that JZ got a hold of and told stories about how you become your prey, you know the old witch doctors would become the buffalo and stuff, and that's verbatim out of a book that somebody told me about, and I had, I don't remember what it was or anything about it other than she says 'God, I read that exactly, Ramtha saying it,' and that's what got her out of the school.
MCCARTHY: Yeah, there's a book that I read a while back, From the Mundane to the Magnificent. I'm trying to think of the author, written in the '40s, '42, the author, Vera Stanley Alder'.and in book there is the blue body, there is quantum physics, there is so much about what's been trademarked by JZ now. What's your opinion of so much of this so-called knowledge that JZ will put a trademark on this stuff, what's your opinion on that'
CUNNINGHAM: I don't know how she can because it's already been in print by somebody else, she's basically stealing it from them, and just putting her own synopsis and twist on the stories. I don't know how she can say she owns it.
MCCARTHY: Just because you put a trademark or copyright on something, doesn't mean to say that, it's hers, and the Art of Life Coaching Group are being sued right now and one of these issues she's suing them for is for using the expression 'So be it,' and the hand motion and JZ will claim that belongs to her as a copyright.
CUNNINGHAM: Well 'So be it' has been in a lot of books, T.H. White wrote the Once and Future King and it's in there that both Merlin and the king use it, and the Once and Future King is about Camelot and that expression is used throughout that book, that's where I figure she got it. And if you ever notice Ramtha mispronounces a lot of words' The same ones JZ mispronounces, constantly.
MCCARTHY: Well my hero, Captain Piccard of the Starship Enterprise uses 'So be it' quite often.
CUNNINGHAM: Well maybe he should sue her.
MCCARTHY: So I have a tough question for you, and I'm going to be the devil's advocate. Did you ever encourage anybody to join RSE'
MCCARTHY: No, you never'
CUNNINGHAM: No, I would use, I thought the philosophies were fantastic, you know, especially my son's friends, the teenagers you know, would be kind of depressed, at those teenage years where things weren't coming together for them, I could use a lot of that stuff from the school to help them in their lives and see things and they thought I was kind of cool to be able to do that, but I would never, never ask anybody ever to go out there.
MCCARTHY: Glen, what do you know, because your time was before the wine ceremonies, and at the wine ceremonies, there was explicit swearing and even physical abuse in some of the so-called truth ceremonies and teachings. What's your opinion, what do you know of that period'
CUNNINGHAM: Well we used to do, uh, Ramtha told a story, I mean there have been several events we went to, down south of San Francisco, pour the wine and fill up a table and everybody would go back at the end of the event, we would get a glass of wine and chug it, you know. This was before I was anything'
MCCARTHY: What year was this'
CUNNINGHAM: It had to be '86, '85' And then I happened to be privy somewhere, I was in the house and Vickie Cady said 'You want me to get wine'' and she goes 'No, that's too expensive.' JZ said that. So that was the end of those goodbye wine things, and I only have heard, I can only tell you what I heard, how they started and why, so I don't want to say anything about that because it would be second hand and just not something I know personally about.
MCCARTHY: Ok. Well I don't mind, I'll speculate, I heard that wine really wasn't JZ's cup of tea, she was more into tequila, and that kind of area of alcohol.
CUNNINGHAM: Well she wasn't even really into that, there were people that taught her that later on.
MCCARTHY: Taught her that''
CUNNINGHAM: Well, introduced her to tequila. She would do white wine and a few things like that at Christmas parties and stuff, but she liked to be in control and have the whole party be orchestrated, everybody dressed up really nice, you'd sing Christmas carols, you'd eat, you'd do things, you'd dote on her, and then you'd go home. So that was more, that's the way she liked to do her Christmas parties. And she would give elaborate gifts to people, it was really kind of nice, her staff would get real nice gifts from her. And she had a room next to her office that was just full of wrapping paper and she just loved wrapping these gifts and real fancy bows and did a beautiful job with it, she's very creative that way.
MCCARTHY: Do you think there's a conflict that arises when you work for somebody like JZ Knight, between loyalty and honesty'
CUNNINGHAM: Well, I was loyal to her and very honest with her. I have to tell you one time after we set up the hotline for people that one of the guys came and talked and said they bug all your phones, they have, they can tap into your computers, they can do all this stuff, so she took the computers out of RSE and we had to start running things back and forth, you know, and so I would go down there and pick up bags of money and bring it back and put it in her safe or give it to Jeannie and Jeannie would put it in her safe. So I was carrying thousands of dollars all the time, sometimes I'd go to different things that I had to do, and put a huge bag of money and then take it back to her. So it was, I was trusted I guess, to do that, which I did. And the last thing she ever said to me was, 'What have you stolen from me'' And I was kind of flabbergasted, I am not a thief, and I looked right at her and I knew my time was short because she doesn't ever fire anybody but she gets down to brass tacks with them and, or she becomes Ramtha and stares at them until they confess. So I said well if you think I've stolen anything, ask Ramtha. And you could see just a flicker in her eye and we changed the subject and never talked about me stealing anything ever again and I was never allowed on the property after that.
CUNNINGHAM: And then one time when we had the hotline set up, I have to tell you this story, she as the drama queen that she is, there was somebody that called up the hotline, no, we had a person that lived up behind the ranch on 93rd in a mobile and she said 'I've got, my phone's been tapped and I have proof.' So Jeannie and I drove up to her house and she had an answering machine with a tape in it and she said 'Listen to this.' So, it was the real estate agent calling her and talking to her. And she had her house up for sale so the conversation was over and you hear the phones click, but apparently the real estate agent hadn't laid down her phone right so the machine was still picking up all the noise from the real estate office, you can hear people talking, and it went on for probably eight, maybe nine, minutes, and then somebody picked up the phone, you hear '.starting to dial the phone again and then you hear click as they realize they are on a live line so they hung up so they can dial their number. So we take this tape back to JZ and we said, 'This is nothing, it's just a tape of somebody that didn't hang up their phone.' JZ listened to it and that was it, that was a real tape, she says 'I know the government is on us' and that became the thing where all the computers and phones and everything, we had people come in and try to debug her house and do all kinds of stuff, you know to look for bugs in her house. And it was all because of that tape that clearly was just a phone not being hung up, but she 'knew' it was a wire tap.
MCCARTHY: I'm going to jump around a little bit because it ties in with this conversation. When we had our meeting at the Yelm middle school last year 2007, Greg Simmons attended, and I asked him, 'What do you remember of the 'reptilians', the RSE teachings of the reptilians'' and he said he didn't 'recall' anything about that time, but that's the kind of thing that goes on, is that so much is swept under the carpet and forgotten, what do you know of those' those things'
CUNNINGHAM: I was at that event when that was brought up, and alright, so, she had come out and started talking about going to the, not going to the light. You remember that particular teaching'
MCCARTHY: Yes, called the Light Teachings.
CUNNINGHAM: Yes, the Light Teachings, so you don't go to the light and you should have seen the audience, they were, they were actually in a panic, they were'..
MCCARTHY: I was there'..
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, it was'..
MCCARTHY: People were crying'..
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, yeah, and so people don't know what to do, she was losing control of the crowd. And I walked around at lunch time you know, and went back up to get Ramtha and bring him down and she said 'How was it'' And I said 'Well a lot of people are upset, now all they're doing is worrying about this teaching.' And I said 'It's got them in a quandary right now, I don't' know what else to say.' So we went out there and in order to get a crowd of people that are upset about one thing, you have to do something to scare them. So that's when the aliens came in, these aliens were talked about at that point to teach, to keep the people from thinking about going to the dark instead of the light, so that threw EVERYBODY off and so after that, that teaching about going to the dark became a secondary part, you had to start building your, covering your house with copper, you had to do all those things to keep the aliens from finding you, because that's what they were going to do.
MCCARTHY: Glen, just rewind a second, the teaching about not going to the light, was the one about the time you die, a person dies, and the legend is there is a tunnel and at the end of this tunnel there is a light and a figure, so what was so shocking for people was to hear'
CUNNINGHAM: Well because everybody's heard you go the light, but this one guy wrote a book called The Gods of Eden or something, I think that's what it was, and he speculated that everybody goes to the light doesn't come back, the ones that stay away from the light can come back to life and tell stories and stuff like that, so Ramtha came out and told people that they don't go to the light because that's the aliens that will strip your soul and send you back.
MCCARTHY: So those were the aliens waiting for you'
CUNNINGHAM: Yes, waiting for you, they strip your life, memories and things that have happened to you, out of you and live vicariously through your memories, they get to feel what it was like to be on earth, then you go back and have to do it all over again. So that's, that is why they started talking about the aliens and that just galvanized everybody then, the story about going to the dark became teaching. Because they were more afraid of the aliens than they were of not of going to light, and the aliens that will come, they're gonna come down here and search for us.
MCCARTHY: So where do the reptilians come into this'
CUNNINGHAM: Well those are lizard-like people that are the ones that want to take, end life on earth, the experiment is over, we have said, we have had enough time to become enlightened and we're not, so we should be wiped out.
MCCARTHY: So being aliens, they're from outer space' They have UFOs'
CUNNINGHAM: That's the way I understood it. And Ramtha and 13 of his people, 13 gods, ascended gods from the other side, used their genes to make Jesus Christ to teach us at that point and it didn't seem to work as well because we made a religion out of it so we have forgotten that we would be able to do the things Jesus Christ does. And I must be the only guy that remembers all that stuff, these tapes are out there.
MCCARTHY: Yeah, I remember it, but its not that legitimate coming from me, but coming from you, because a lot of people at that time remember you being there and it helps to put some pieces back in the puzzle of how this whole line was created and then forgotten, or buried.
CUNNINGHAM: And Ramtha even asked me how my underground was going and I said 'Great, we're almost finished.' He said 'Do you feel good about it'' And I went 'Yeah.' And he didn't even know that I didn't have one, and that really surprised me.
MCCARTHY: Now just for clarity, when you say 'he' said'
CUNNINGHAM: When you work for, when you're at the ranch, you had to separate the two. If I ever said 'JZ said this,' well I would have been out of there in a second, a New York second. So you had to keep the, and that helps people when I was telling a story about Ramtha I use Ramtha and then you know, JZ when you're talking about JZ.
MCCARTHY: One of the big draws for me to be here, to come here, was this idea that we as a group would be able to create a Christ, then RSE became a seven year school, at one time, that it would take you seven years, and one of you would become a Christ, and to me that was the highest ideal to be a part of, not that I saw myself as ever becoming a Christ but I may have fantasized myself as being one of the disciples, kind of in my head. Now JZ, I've never heard this directly, but it's been said that JZ's, or Ramtha's been talking about JZ as being a Christ, or is going to be the Christ, have you heard anything of that nature''
CUNNINGHAM: I know he came out and said she had a bigger brain. If you knew her as her, she's not a very Christ-like person, so I would doubt that unless she had an epiphany or catharsis that would change her whole entire outlook on life and everybody else, she's not a Christ-like person.
MCCARTHY: Well as you know, it ended, as I finished my time in the RSE organization, Ramtha pretty much dismissed the whole concept by saying WE had failed, WE were lazy, we weren't ready, so the whole thing of creating a Christ in the '90s was again just brushed under the carpet, that WE failed, and so that it's always the student, it's always the person blaming themselves, thinking they're not good enough to do something, that to me is '
CUNNINGHAM: Well, you know, there have been people that I know that have devoted their entire life to doing all of the disciplines, every day, and living their whole life according to Ramtha. Several years ago, and she says 'I've done everything every day that Ramtha's said to do for 18 years, I am still crazy and sick.' And I said 'Maybe it's time for you to look at something else.' So she's not in the school anymore.
MCCARTHY: Is she getting better'
CUNNINGHAM: Yes. She's out and she has a life that's productive and she's happy.
MCCARTHY: Glen, how do you see JZ Knight as a human being, on a psychological level' Do you think she's deceiving herself or if she's conscious of what she's doing'
CUNNINGHAM: I have friends that I talk to about this and I think, I think she reads, she knows what she's doing but when she becomes Ramtha, she is, she sinks herself into that character and stays there, but she can't do it all the time, because there's been too many incidents where she hasn't done that. She's a sociopath, that's what I believe. Because she doesn't seem to have, the only time she does anything nice for anybody else is when it benefits her. She's very, very selfish.
MCCARTHY: That's where I find that there's a good deal of loyalty to JZ Knight. And I wonder if that's purposefully created through JZ's generosity to certain people and that in a sense'
CUNNINGHAM: Those stories carry on and other people think they can get in on that, I believe. She's a very charismatic person. You kind of want to be around her until you see the real her, and then you go 'Mm, I'm staying away as much as possible.' And we would have weekly meetings talking about construction on the project I was doing for her so I talked to her quite a bit that way, and then after the meetings sometimes we would talk about events and then as we went up and she came back into the body and Ramtha left I would go get her coffee and Jeannie would light her cigarettes and we would sit and talk about what went on at the event. So we were cluing her in and we, I mean, she already knew, but she had to put on that fa'ade. And then there would be several of the closer people would come up there and tell stories about how wonderful it was, and I would tell wonderful miracle stories to JZ about what Ramtha did and get her to laugh once in awhile, you know. It was kind of a fun time. It was a feeling of kind of camaraderie, but I liked telling these stories and other people listening to them because you know, I'm a story teller, but I'm not a liar, you know.
MCCARTHY: So when you left RSE, what kind of terms did you leave and what was the situation'
CUNNINGHAM: That was it, we had the project finished, there was no more construction to be done, and Jeannie, my wife, she oh geez, I don't know if I can tell this story and get it right, without sounding real bad. Jeannie, caught one of her close personal friends doing something and was asked never to talk to JZ about problems we were having with people. So that meant Jeannie would never talk to JZ personally, she'd have to go through somebody else to talk to JZ. So she sat around there twiddling her thumbs for a couple of weeks, going out and training the three or four horses they had left, you know, and she really couldn't do that because there were no more horse facilities anymore, it was pretty much put them in the pasture then back in the stall. So she said 'I've got to quit, I've got a job offer from someone else.' And JZ comes down and she says 'You're quitting'' And she goes 'Yeah, I can't, you've eliminated most of what I do, I'm no longer allowed to talk to you about security or anything.' And she says 'Well, you can stay here.' And she goes 'Well, what am I gonna do'' And she goes 'Well, I don't know, I'll find something for you.' And she says 'No I think I'm gonna go.' And it was two weeks after that I was asked, well I wasn't asked to leave, but I told you that story, the next day I couldn't get in, and I called the gate and Barbara says 'I got your last check here.' I went in and talked to Barbara, her name was Barbara Kennedy and asked her what happened. And she said 'Well, you know, she just phoned down yesterday, yesterday afternoon and just said you're out.' She didn't have enough guts to tell me herself, that's the way she did everything.
MCCARTHY: What happened after you started to tell your friends and people involved in RSE what you really felt was going on there'
CUNNINGHAM: Well I didn't really tell a lot of those people, I would tell the towns people what I saw and what was going on, but if somebody from the school came to me and asked me questions and I would tell them stories, all they'd go is go back to JZ and say 'This is what Glen said.' So I knew they were using me to get close to her, because that's what everybody wanted to do. So finally after I moved to California, I was down there for nine months or so you know and there was no work there and Margaret called me and said 'I got a hotel going in so will you come back and go to work with me'' and I said sure so I moved back up here. And I'd go in and have coffee at the motel every morning and there was a guy come in and say 'Is there anybody around here can tell me about JZ Knight, I'd really like to know'' And he came five or six days doing that, and I knew he was a detective or some plant of hers because nobody's that stupid, you know. So he came and I said 'Yeah, I know something,' and he said 'Well go over Arnold's we'll have dinner.' And he said 'I'm buying dinner,' so I had I dunno a couple bottles of wine and the lobster, I had the most expensive stuff on the meal, and I made up stories about JZ and you know, I told a lot of truths about her and I'd say something and he'd say 'Well we don't want to know about Ramtha, we'd like to know about JZ.' And I just blathered for a long time and I made up stories about her and one of the things I did say, it was, I kind of admired JZ, she's a smart woman, and I said 'It really bothers me that these people, that she's so trusting.' I said, 'She's already had people break onto the property and hit Jeff and stuff and I'm surprised some guy doesn't climb up in a tree out there and shoot her, as she's, as she is Ramtha walking around the fields.' So she brought in the Glen Cunningham deal that night where 1200 people came in and learned how I was going to crawl up in a tree and shoot her. I threatened her life. So I got a strange feeling in town, I'd see people from the school would used say hi to me, all of a sudden they were snubbing me and stuff. And one of them I knew pretty well, and I said 'What's going on'' And he goes 'Uh, uh, you know.' And I said, 'No, you can talk to me.' And he said 'Well we know that you want to kill JZ,' and I went, 'What'' He said 'That's what she did, she got us all out there and told us how you were going to kill her.' And I went 'Wow.' And I started seeing people and they'd aim their cars at me if I was in the street or walking down the sidewalk, a kind of little threat, nothing much. Well I have a weapons permit and carry so I went over to the police chief and I said, 'They just had an event the other night and 1200 people think I want to kill JZ.' So I said, 'I'm letting you know if there's, if any of them approach me and they want to start something, I will shoot them. I'm not going to fool around with them, I don't know what they're going to do, I don't know how crazy they'll be but I'm going to protect myself.' And he says 'Ok.' And nothing ever happened, just people with, it was funny, I'd go into the grocery store, I'd see one person they'd say hi to me, but if there were two they'd look up and see me and split and run away from me. So it's like any other cult, you know, one person, one on one is ok, but if there is a witness you don't want to be talking to him. So that went on, and that was a long time ago and I've never, well I think most of them that are, could not, that are still my friends, knew that wasn't going to happen because I probably weighed 50 lbs. more than I do now and I couldn't fit in a tree'.[laughter]' and they said they never thought that would happen but 'since we were part of that we couldn't talk to you, you know, we had to snub you because of that.' And I said 'Yeah I understand.' So I thought, there are still a few of them that remember that, but I think that they've thought about it and it's never happened and you and I'm still here and she's still there, so. But nobody ever says anything about those lies she tells, and they figure after all this time they must have known it's a lie but they still will believe her over me.
MCCARTHY: Quite recently, JZ Knight in an interview with Megan of the Nisqually Valley News said about me that I was in business with Joe Szimhart to make money out of this anti-cult organization. Now, anybody that knows me, knows this
is totally nonsense.
Do you think that in your situation she comes up with this stuff believing it, or knows how it can do so much damage to people's reputation'
CUNNINGHAM: Oh, I think it's the damage part, you know.
MCCARTHY: She wants to hurt people.
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah. She knows I'd never do something like that, she knows that. Yet, she said that, because it does again, it unites a whole group of people against one person. They're united against one guy that wants to kill her. They're united against a city that wants to pull RSE in and shut it down. She told me that 20 years ago you know, and I went to the city and found out that they couldn't do that. I went back and told her and she was disappointed but still carries that story on. Any time something comes up it's because they want to shut her down. And it's not true, the city doesn't want that piece of property in their city limits, it's not in their urban growth boundaries, we don't want to have the hassle of bringing that facility into it, and I'm on the Planning Commission, I know that, the Yelm City Planning Commission and I KNOW that we do not want to have that chunk of land in our city. We could not provide the things that she, there like, enough sewer, you know we could do the sewer but it would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to get the pipes her place to where they connect up. So it's not an easy deal, it's not something the city wants to have happen. We want the county to have that deal to work with...
MCCARTHY: Let's stop for a break for a moment, but I've got one quick question and then we'll turn off the camera. You said the word 'cult.' Now that's a pretty strong word.
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, if you' Their thing was they used to say if you read what a cult is, we're not any of those things, but actually they are, all the things they do now is cult activity.
MCCARTHY: One of the things I hear often is 'How do you criticize my right to my freedom of religion,' however RSE is not a religion. JZ would say it's not a religion.
CUNNINGHAM: No, it's a selfish, self-oriented cult group and if you look at the layers of getting close to JZ and the teachers and all the things that they have there it is basically like Scientology, they have the same layered system of working people.
MCCARTHY: Do you feel there are any benefits that come out of this organization'
CUNNINGHAM: Well, the benefits I got from it were I learned how to, you know, I realized the one thing I said at the teachings is you're never mad at anybody else, it's always yourself, and I did a lot of speculation, and yeah, all my life if I ever got mad at someone it was never anybody else, it was always I was mad at some shortcoming in myself, so I learned that in the school and it's changed my life. I was never an unhappy person but it makes me every day, I don't wake up with a bad thought at all.
MCCARTHY: People are going to accuse you of hating JZ Knight.
CUNNINGHAM: No I don't, because she's a very brilliant woman. I just feel sorry for her. She's got herself in this thing where she can't get out. She's, it's the rest of her life, will be, she'll have all these people worshipping, well, she's trying to get away from Ramtha by having, she wanted to do the teachings or she has people that travels around the world that teaches the beginners how to do it, you know she's trying to get away from that. That's what she's trying to do. That's the first thing she told me when I worked out a deal with her on the construction project. She said 'I want to run this place without having to work so hard.' Well even if I was a new age monk or thinking about joining, right there I knew she was in it for the money, I mean that flat told me right there. 'I don't want to have to work so hard to run this place.'
Video Interview link....
Glen Cunningham Interview Part 1. JZ Knight. Ramtha. Cults. - YouTube
Ramtha Cult Glen Cunningham Interview Part 2 - YouTube
Glen Cunningham Q & A Interview Part 1 . 42 Minutes
Glen Cunningham Q & A Interview Part 2. 38 Minutes
- David McCarthy
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MCCARTHY: People are going to accuse you of hating JZ Knight.
CUNNINGHAM: Well I don?t. Because she?s a very brilliant woman, I just feel sorry for her. She?s got herself in this thing where she can?t get out.
MCCARTHY: Do you remember the incident where JZ sent Vickie Cady to somebody?s house with a bullhorn?
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, I can?t remember why I wasn?t involved in any of that, it was just her that did that, and I can?t remember, I just can?t speculate on what it was or why, I was just kind of a bystander on that one, didn?t get involved in it. Early on, '86, the end of '86, I went to a house over in Lacey where there was another channel that was channeling Yeweh,? No, Yid, what is there, Id?? Well she got up and did her routine and I could see how phony that was. You know there was 20 people there asking all these questions and somebody?s walking around behind her with a tape recorder, small tape recorder, and she stands up and she looks at the girl and she goes ?Look how good I work this body now.? Later on she came up and told all the people that too and said ?I?m not channeling anything but myself, do you still want to follow me?? and people did. We?re gullible, you know, if it sounds good, we?ll do it.
MCCARTHY: Well one other thing that troubles me so much about this whole thing that?s going on in RSE, is there is some goodness, there is some truth,
I feel, we are more than just our human bodies and our minds, there?s an incredible mystery to life and also I think an innate spark of God in all of us, but what troubles me is that it infects that goodness, it can destroy that faith, that hope, in people when it?s abused.
CUNNINGHAM: And it?s that these people are putting all their stock into what somebody else says instead of introspection and looking at what they?ve done or reading a self-help book, they can do the same thing, a lot of people don?t have that ability. But to listen to somebody that?s coming from such a phony place to give this message, that bothers me also. They?re not true, if it was just JZ doing it, telling these people they can do this, it would be fine. Just like Benny Hanna, or any of these televangelists, they?ve got Jesus Christ that's doing it for them, well JZ has Ramtha. Well, Jesus Christ is a real figure in history and Ramtha is not.
MCCARTHY: You have a life here in Yelm, you've been very involved in the local community on many levels so you have a track record of action. It?s not so much about what you say, people know you from what you?ve done. That seems to be what?s lost here. JZ can come out and deliver this amazing oratory through ?Ramtha?, with all these words, but who she is and what she does is something else that is almost ignored, how she treats others and so forth and the scarier picture, the intimidation she does through the law courts and so on, is one of the examples, anybody dares use some of these so-called sacred teachings on their own is immediately dismissed from RSE or even sued. So her actions complete opposite of the so-called message is, or used to be. What?s your feeling, how come as a society or a community we allow that? in the news media, the community, falls for that, what is that?
CUNNINGHAM: Because nobody knows what?s on the other side and they that think they?re getting the answer from this, because this person comes from the other side. It?s like 2,000 years ago or more when God was speaking to people, and there are all kinds of stories in the Bible about that, and I think that people have been disenchanted with other things they've looked for. We had one guy in the school he said, ?I did everything that the Mormon church told me to do, I was an elder, I gave them money, I went to church all the time, raised my kids that way and my wife was still sleeping with other men, so what did I do wrong?? So I mean, he thought he found the answer in Ramtha until he met JZ, him and I were close to her, and he?s gone.
MCCARTHY: He's gone, he died?.
CUNNINGHAM: Yes. But he?s the kind of guy he went searching, he followed other channels looking for these answers, he?s not like me where I have enough answers in my life that I don?t need to go following anybody else, I don?t need to follow and search around to find somebody to give me answers about what?s on the other side. And I love this community and even before I was out of the school I did things in the community so I never, I didn?t just move here to become a member of that school, I moved here to be a member of this community. And I?ve done that, proved that, ever since I?ve been here, and I?ve done lots of things. You can say I kind of opened myself up to it, because the people I know here know I went there and they don?t condemn me for it.
MCCARTHY: So why aren?t you concerned, or are you concerned, of any backlash from JZ Knight?
CUNNINGHAM: Oh, I?m sure there?s going to be backlash from her, she?s told lies about me before. I don?t know what will become of this one but I will persevere. If I can get the message out to somebody to let them know that this is not everything they think it is, and they can look at their life a little bit and can maybe make changes and feel better about themselves, then I?m willing to do it.
MCCARTHY: What do you say of those people that come here believing what RSE tells them, for instance, that any disease known to mankind can be healed here? Cancer and so forth.
MCCARTHY: Viruses, yes.
CUNNINGHAM: Well there are too many dead people that came here to get cured that weren?t cured. And the school?s thing is they didn?t believe hard enough. You can go, they can go into remission, you know, there are some of them that went into remission for a short time but later on died. And they?re touted as, I remember a girl named Lynn Swanson, Ramtha hugged her and told everybody she was free of cancer, six months she was gone. There was people crying in the crowd, it was the most moving time. Lynn had come here to get cured, and she was cured, Ramtha told her she was cured, and then she was gone. So.
MCCARTHY: But she is ?dancing with Ramtha now on the 32 universe.?
CUNNINGHAM: Yes, so people are happy that she died, they don?t look at it as a fact that Ramtha lied to her, the whole school is a lie and she?s dead. No, she?s with Ramtha now, you know, so that?s what they think.
MCCARTHY: During my time there, I had an incident where a staff member claimed that she manifested a feather, a blue feather. That was the time maybe you were there, we were manifesting out of nothing. And then she came in one morning waving the blue feather. I?ve told my story a few times, but she sat next to me, she was my partner and then I asked her what the secret was, I thought she had some technique and obviously she was a highly evolved master and I was so honored that she would be talking to me, so I asked her ?What, just tell me, we don?t have to tell everybody else, how did you do this?? And she said she went to the store and bought it! And I thought she was joking, and I said ?No, no, come on, you can tell me, I?m here, come on, I came from New Zealand.? And she said ?No, no, I manifested it, I was walking through the store, an art store, and looking for my crayons and my papers and there was the blue feather. It was two dollars, so I manifested it.?
But the 1200 other people believed that she manifested that feather.
CUNNINGHAM: That it appeared right before her.
CUNNINGHAM: Ok, so Joe Alt?s, little brother Brian, I think, anyway, he told JZ that he was trying to manifest a paper clip, told his brother that, and he told JZ, but we were walking back to the house one time and Ramtha looked down and there was a paper clip, and he goes ?Go back and give this to J.O.?s brother, Joe's brother.? And I said ?ok.? And I went in there and he goes ?Oh, god, my paper clip! I manifested my paper clip!? And another girl was trying to manifest a walnut, and she got up, and told, she had her walnut in her hand, how she was in the store and there was her walnut. Well this is Fall, you know, and there?s walnuts, and almonds, and chestnuts, and pecans and all these things there and there was her walnut, she knew this was her walnut right in that bin, so she picked it up and put it in her pocket, she actually stole her walnut! So that?s what you call manifesting. So I did not, I?ve had a lot of people tell me their miracles and the things that Ramtha did for them but I believe those were a lot of coincidences that just happened, and they have taken those coincidences and given them a higher power, done things that are incredibly outrageous, you know, manifested a walnut and all those things, so you know, I feel sorry for them, that?s all I can say, you know, they just, you just have to change your whole attitude and be happy with life and things happen for you, you don?t have to go out there and do that, you don?t have to sit and scream and holler and puff until you blow your optic nerve out or you cause rhythms in your heart that aren?t right. Joe blew an optic nerve, Joe D, blew an optic nerve out, and I would watch him do his C&E and he did it all wrong totally all the time as to the teachings and I could see he was going to hurt himself, and there was another girl in there, she was just, she would pump, she?d get her arms flapping, I thought she was going to take off a couple of times, and you know, she just, and her name was Judy Zimmerman she died of cancer, she was trying to cure herself, she died of cancer. So I?ve seen a lot of them that knew that this was going to be the answer to all their prayers and it never was.
MCCARTHY: And remember the warrior cries, the screamers??
CUNNINGHAM: I just couldn?t stand that, it was just so irritating. But when you have a bunch of people together and you?re doing a certain thing for a little while, and it doesn?t, they start losing interest so you have to add another little end to it, well you have to drink a little wine, that?ll open up your head, well then you should drink more of that, then there?s dancing involved, there?s all the things involved at those wine ceremonies that make it more fun to do and you think you?re actually accomplishing something. Now when a lot of them are getting busted for drunk driving and things like that, they had to tone that all down you know, and now I guess they?re very rare that they do the wine ceremonies. As far as I know, I?ve talked to a couple of people and they happen very, very rarely and they?re all locked in there to stay. They have to sign things and say they?re not going to leave.
MCCARTHY: Very much a deprivation situation that was going on there, when you become that exhausted and you really, if you like, ?need? an experience then it?s going to start.
CUNNINGHAM: Well, all groups that get together they have what they call a ?group high.? And you can see it in a televangelist, you know these guys are ?amen, amen!? Everybody gets going on this and they get to feeling very, very good, and after the thing?s over they still feel wonderful about themselves, they wake up the next morning and say ?What the hell did I do?? And that?s the same thing what goes here, the group high is something that is infectious and it makes you feel good, after you?ve been at a ?good event? where you don?t get chewed out for being the scum of the earth and not being smart enough, or advanced enough or good enough to advance to being a better person.
MCCARTHY: I?m saying, if there?s somebody, you?re looking at, let?s say this is a person that says to you, ?I?m coming to RSE,? perhaps ? I?m coming from Australia or Europe, and I really want to check this out,? what would you advise them?
CUNNINGHAM: Well, I?ve had people, yeah, there was people, most of the people I see now are foreigners and can?t understand English so I?ve never had a chance to talk to them, but I?ve had towns people tell me, ?Boy, I?m really interested in that, I?d really like to know what goes on there,? and I say ?Well let?s go over here and sit in a corner and I?ll tell you what goes on there then you can save the money and not have to find out for yourself.?
MCCARTHY: And maybe save their family?
CUNNINGHAM: Well yeah, I tell them the whole thing, ?Be prepared to give up a lot of stuff you have right now, your kids, your family, you want to be sure you have those people taken care of and out of the way because once you get into this you?ll be spending all your time out there and you?ll be trying to become enlightened and then pretty much the only thing that will be enlightened is your wallet.? I tell them a lot of people that, they really get into your wallet, if you really want to learn. And I try to do it in a loving sort of kind way, but some people you just have to lay it right out quickly for them and show them.
MCCARTHY: When you first started sharing your experience, you spoke about the hope it gave your wife, and that's the part that is so hard for people to let go of, that hope, because some people are perhaps in a midlife crisis, perhaps have a serious illness, are very afraid, are very frightened of something, and it gives them a lot of hope, because some of the message is good, and that?s the draw. Now, it?s very hard to say to somebody ?This isn?t for your benefit, in the longterm, in the bigger picture there is something else going on here.?
CUNNINGHAM: She was so wrapped up in the tapes and telling me I didn?t listen to the tapes and I didn?t know what I was talking about, so it was different in her case, but it still kept her from wanting to kill herself, she lost those suicidal tendencies, so that was a good thing in the long run, so then when we found out she was bipolar and had fits of depression, and back then, I didn?t know about those things, I had no idea that somebody could be that messed up in their mind, all by themselves, it was something really new, and now she?s on pills that help her keep her brain chemistry in the right place.
MCCARTHY: Perhaps educators watching this video, even media professionals, journalists, what I find the big mistake they make is not understanding the dynamics of JZ Knight. Perhaps when they ask JZ Knight a question, JZ would say ?No, I didn?t say that.? But they have not separated ?Ramtha? and JZ Knight, so it's very hard, I should imagine, it?s very hard for, as a journalist to approach this...
CUNNINGHAM: Back in the, she had all those scientists come and test Ramtha, remember that? I can't remember, it was in early 90s, '92 or '93...something like that?
MCCARTHY: No, more in ?95, I think..
CUNNINGHAM: ?95, ok. They were all staying at the motel; I think it was five different people. There was a UFO expert, there was Gordon Melton, he was writing a book on the school, there was a guy with a machine that would test the body and things, and so I said, as they got done interviewing, Channel 5 was there filming them all talking about their experiences with Ramtha or JZ Knight and the school, and as they would leave, be sitting at the table and I?d snicker at one of them, this woman, especially the woman with the UFOs and she said ?What?s so funny?? And I said ?Did you ever talk to anyone that was not in the school?? And she said ?Well, no.? I said ?All you did was go down there and get wined and dined and saw how beautiful everything was.? And she goes ?Well, yeah.? And I said ?Did Ramtha ever talk about anything that was new, let?s say, in UFO sightings?? And she said ?Well no, as a matter of fact all the stuff that Ramtha talks about is at least 20 years old.? And I said, ?Well there?s not much new stuff out there with UFOs.? And she left scratching her head. And the guy with the lie detector said ?There is a definite change in the body.? And so I said ?So what you have is basically a lie detector?? And he said ?Well yeah.? And I said ?So when you put Ramtha on there, that means JZ is lying and that?s why there is a jump in those needles?? And he said ?NO, that can?t happen!? And he got up mad at me and got up from his chair and slammed out and walked away. And I can?t remember the next guy I talked to, he was something else, and he says ?Yeah, you know, you?re right, everything Ramtha is saying is really old, in fact, it?s pass?.? So I said, ?How do you know Ramtha exists, then?? And he said ?Well the guy with the machine.? And he said ?You?re probably right.? And Gorden Melton he was the one who wrote the book about the school, he?s also wrote books about vampires and stuff and I talked to him more than any of the rest of them, and I said ?Well Gordon, you know there?s no Ramtha, doesn?t exist.? And he said ?I don?t care, I?m just writing a book.? He says ?Not for me to judge. I saw it and that?s what I?m writing about and that's what they?re paying me for.? And I said ?Oh, ok.? So you know, I had an answer from all those people. They had spent the week out there having all the best, the best foods, and their food paid for, and they were paid to do all this, so what else were they going to say? Not, ?This is the biggest bunch of horse puckey around.?
MCCARTHY: Well the question begs then, if Ramtha exists and Ramtha agrees to that, why doesn?t Ramtha just appear? And have a camera there? Why all this fuss??
CUNNINGHAM: Well because we?re not going to believe that that?s really Ramtha.
MCCARTHY: Well scientists could turn around and say ?Well it?s on camera here.? If it were real it?d be world news overnight.
GUEST: Devotees of Ramtha or any other guru or whomever, is that they stop listening to their heart in following something or someone outside themselves, and that is the same thing that we are about, is the support of individuals to discover what is true for themselves through their own experience, not because someone tells them to do X, Y, and Z. But to really be the scientist of their own selves, and so in that journey that you have made, I really find you quite a spiritual man, so I wanted to say that.
CUNNINGHAM: Well, thank you, I never thought about it being spiritual.
MCCARTHY: You could become a teacher and start a school.
CUNNINGHAM: If I could think of a good name, But all the good names were taken up. We had Mafu, and we had Zarathustra and ?
GUEST: Somebody had Mafu.
CUNNINGHAM: Penny Torres did Mafu. Now the Hawaiian tape, if you noticed, JZ Knight sits down in this great big chair and puts her feet up under her and goes into being Ramtha, arms like this you know and goes [deep breath] and brings her feet down and stands. Well, when she?s at her home doing that she sits in a chair like this and she doesn?t cross her legs, but she said the only reason she did that in that chair was because it was so big and it was comfortable and easy to do that and normally, I?ve watched it and boom, boom and ?So be it? and Ramtha starts. So Penny Torres does it JUST like JZ does on her, on that Hawaiian tape, you know, and so and kind of talks almost the same way as Ramtha in the early days, and she, she finally quit doing channeling around here and moved down somewhere to Oregon and she has a farm where she has people that come and they live with Mafu all the time now. I know a guy who that left here and went down there to live with Mafu.
MCCARTHY: Are you saying Penny Torres was here in Yelm at one time?
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, she came through this area one time, she was down, where did I see her, she was off of, we had a spiritualist from L.A. move up here and her name was, I haven?t thought about her in years, she brought a whole bunch of people up here with her, but then she went to JZ, er, Ramtha and it wasn?t quite right, it was costing her too much money, so she was way down off Case Road, down in the other end of the valley down off of Black Lake, way down there, she was down there for awhile but she couldn?t get the following that she had in L.A. so she went back to L.A. I can?t remember her name now.
CUNNINGHAM: So then Penny would do just like Ramtha but people would spend time there, what she would do is tie a man and woman together for a week and make them do everything they would do themselves, I mean they?d have to go to the bathroom together, people who didn?t know each other, I mean, she did really, really silly stuff. I don?t know, I haven?t heard Mafu being mentioned in years now.
MCCARTHY: So why isn?t JZ suing Penny Torres then??
CUNNINGHAM: Well, because it was early on and I guess Penny got far enough away that it wasn?t taking any of her bread and butter. Just like Tahoma Terra over there, the only reason she?s going after them is because it?s close to her territory here, so it?s really ridiculous.
GUEST: Who is this?
CUNNINGHAM: Tahoma Terra? Haven?t you been reading the news? The NVN? Because there?s a lot of stuff in there about how JZ Knight is suing the city for letting all those houses being built there and then James Flick is going over there doing his, you know, taking pictures and stuff, and they got him for trespassing, and you know it?s turning into a nice little war. She needs to lose a whole bunch more things before she?ll stop doing this stuff. And I think as I told you the reason she does it is because it keeps the cult against one enemy. It keeps that group of people hating something, you know. And so that goes completely against the School of Enlightenment. If you?re going to be enlightened why do you start a war with the town you?re in? Why do you start any of this stuff, I mean it just doesn?t make sense other than she wants to keep it her sweet little town, that she never does anything in, but she talks about ?her people? spending lots and lots of money here every month, or every time they come to town. And those people they fill out those things, you know, and I know most of them, you don?t see them shopping in stores very much anymore, you don?t see them spending the money they used to. JZ lent people money when we first started staying at the ranch, she lent to Rich, uh and Kelly, and they started this catering, so they were catering breakfast and meals for people that had to stay overnight at the ranch and didn?t bring their own food. So they made a deal with JZ, JZ loaned them money, then the first time they come out and set up their breakfast Ramtha didn?t let anybody out for hours, the food got cold, they lost all that food, couldn?t even sell it. And the next time when they brought lunch back in, wouldn?t let anybody go out and eat, those people lost?. And then JZ demanded her money. So I mean, she had somebody open up a wine store down there and that?s when the wine things almost quit immediately because it was somebody she didn?t like. She did the same thing to Bev Detrich out there that was writing Wind Words or the paper ?..And after we?d gone to the Estes Park and when Ramtha came in, well she was talking about all these metaphysical books and autumn books and history of time and all those things. Well, Bev was just selling the heck out of those, she sold out of just about every book she had there. And when we came back, she said ?We?re setting up a bookstore and we?re not gonna give Bev interviews with Ramtha or anything anymore.? And Bev went out of business, because of JZ, she wanted all that money from the books. She had no idea the books were going to sell like that. So now she has a bookstore.
MCCARTHY: Yeah, and Thunder Market, was another, they had problems there, and they were accused of laundering drugs and so forth.
CUNNINGHAM: That was one of the nicest families ever been here, they were good people.
MCCARTHY: It was ruined by that so-called rumor. I think it was ?92 or ?91 that this is perhaps connected to your situation. It was an event called and so of course I go running because I think it?s something special to hear. And JZ starts crying and saying the school is going to be shut down, imminent by the IRS. They found a way to shut us down through the IRS. It?s not really the IRS, it?s the bad guys, and you know, the Grey Men?. And people are crying, how can we help, we want to help. Well, there was only one way, ?I?ve got to raise a lot money.? So pretty much it was extortion, emotional extortion. And I?m going to keep this on tape. I was there. And people gave her a lot of money, millions. And so what happened was several years ago, during a wine ceremony, the truth ceremonies, I don?t know why JZ Knight decided to do this, maybe someone was going to blow the whistle, she stood up there and said ?I have a confession. Remember that time the IRS was going to shut us down? I lied. I just didn?t pay my taxes, and I will pay you all back.? And she paid Roberta back and I believe she paid Linda Evans, but what about all those poor ones that, are gone, and paid money?. But she admitted that was a lie, but people cheered because she?s so honest.
CUNNINGHAM: When was that?
MCCARTHY: I would say it was ?91, ?92.
CUNNINGHAM: That was after I was gone, so it would have to be a little later. Probably, yeah, could have been ?92. I was gone then.
MCCARTHY: And the event, it would have been a wine ceremony where JZ confessed that she lied to that situation to everybody. But people cheered and thought that was honorable of her that she finally came clean.
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, there?s been a lot of things like that. She is very tight, then I?ve seen her where a drunk lady out on Russian Hill, somebody called and said she?s in really bad shape, she?s laying on her bathroom floor, totally drunk, she was losing her house. Sent a bunch of us out there, we cleaned up her place, JZ paid her back payments, sent her over to a rehab over in Yakima, got her all sobered up and brought her back. I mean she did that, made her look really good, and then the story went throughout the school for the longest time.
MCCARTHY: Yep, that's how it is, it?s totally calculated.
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah. So she has, like I said, I think she?s a sociopath, everything she does is for her, and for nobody else. She doesn?t care anything about anybody else?s feelings at all, ever. And I?ve seen it time and again as she was JZ.
MCCARTHY: Glen, would you speculate where you think this will end up?
CUNNINGHAM: I, what I would really like her to do is just get tired of this and move to Spain. I heard that story that she wanted to move to Spain. Because I don?t want her getting sick and dying in our town here because the people will never go away. They?ll stay here, this will be mecca to them, I can see them all going out there and praying and somebody will take over the teachings that?s higher up you know, and it?ll still stay a business. I don?t know, the kids, I guess. I don?t know, I?ve thought about this a lot, as to where and how it would happen. And every year that I see her name in the paper she gets younger than me. I?m 61 and when I started this out she was four years older than me and now I think she?s three years younger than I am, so she?s not aging as fast as I am.
MCCARTHY: How about that?
UNKNOWN: Time works differently...
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, I got a kick out of that.
MCCARTHY: Glen, what?s your opinion of the people that work, the inner staff members that work for JZ Knight right now?
CUNNINGHAM: I think that people that work real close with her know the truth, but it's, they've got a job and they're used to that, if they quit what're they going to do? They've been there for years, they've left their families, they've done everything, what would they do then? That's why they stay.
MCCARTHY: It's called getting a life, I think, isn't it?.
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, it's tough to get a life. I had the same thing happen when I was out of there, nobody would talk to me, I didn't know enough of the towns people to get jobs, you know, and it was just piddling in.. Well the Ramsters wouldn't give me jobs, you know, because I was ?out? of the school.
MCCARTHY: the ?folkies.?
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, she calls them the folkies. She was laughing at them one day I was telling her stories, and she was at her telescope looking at them in the field, bumping into each other and laughing and I was telling her stories about them smashing into each other, keeping her laughing and she finally looked at me and said ?We're not going to laugh at the folkies anymore.?
CUNNINGHAM: I said ?sure? and never told another story about anything funny. So, especially when they were smashing into each other. I just couldn't understand these people that would put on their masks and run across the field to the fence on the other side. Ed Wiltsie's head's all split open and I said, ?What made you think you were that enlightened? And he goes, ?I just knew I could do it.?
MCCARTHY: And I did it myself. JZ had us line up on either side of the fence, I think there was 500 of us on either side and have us run across to the other side, and she made us do it twice, or convinced us to do it twice. Now I call that brainwashing.
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, how many people were injured? The first time that ever happened 23 people ended up at St. Peters.
MCCARTHY: 23 people.
CUNNINGHAM: 23 People with cuts, broken noses, broken ankles, broken arms. Cuts, mostly cuts, smashing into each other and breaking their noses, and splitting their heads wide open and breaking out their teeth. I watched Gary Craig, had his hands like this, man, just peeling across there went right between the two boards and hit that top board of the fence right in his face, just bloodied his lips, swelled up, and he said ?Eh, it was a lesson.? Yeah, a lesson not to do that. But I did know a lot of people that quit when that started. There were a lot of them, that just, that was it, they were not going to abuse themselves that way.
MCCARTHY: Do you think JZ experiments on people in the groups, to see what she can push on them, what she can control, do you think she does that?
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, I think so. I think it's gotten to where she doesn't like doing it but the power to get those people to do what she wants, that's a strong influence on people, especially when you're like her where you don't really care and it's kind of fun to watch. It's like torturing a rat. That's the way I felt. I used to call the Tank the ?Rat Maze.? I said well ?They're out there in the Rat Maze.? And it really bothered me. Mike Alt quit because he said, ?I was on top of that tank,? and he said, ?I saw 1200 people that if Ramtha said 'They're some swords in here and the last one will go with me.'? He said, ?Those people would have killed each other to get there.? And I said, ?Yeah I looked out there and I saw 1200 people who would drink the Kool-Aid.? I said, you know, I was convinced that if Ramtha said ?Go out and drink the Kool-Aid? everybody would, except me. And that made me feel real creepy and that was toward the end of my tenure there and I was getting ready to get out anyway.
MCCARTHY: Well, in a way, there's been a form of the Kool-Aid with the Sea-11 water,
I don't know if you know about that,.
MCCARTHY: And also popping the Prozac.
CUNNINGHAM: I knew a girl that worked in the house, she was a housekeeper and she said ?I was on Prozac, because that's what we had to do, in order to keep your job.? And she says, these were her words, ?I was so totally fucked up all the time I couldn't even function like a human.? And she said ?I'd got a hat out in the arena one time, from somebody and he'd given JZ the same hat,? well that's the reason she left, JZ said ?Why did you steal my hat?? Here she is on Prozac and she goes, ?Uh, I didn't steal your hat, it's mine,? you know. And she goes ?That is my hat and I know you've taken it.? She says ?I don't appreciate you stealing from me, don't steal anything from me, I know that's my hat.? And she got up and quit and left. And JZ went in there and found her hat in the closet and probably went ?Eh, oh well, we'll get somebody new in here.?
MCCARTHY: Everybody's disposable.
CUNNINGHAM: Yep, they are. And you never know when you're working with, what she's going to do next, or a person of that bent. Jeannie and I used to try to figure out, we'd sit at home and plan it out, ?What do you think if we say this, what do you think might happen?? Or, when we take this, what're we going to do?? And we would just sometimes look at each other and be totally amazed because she would be completely opposite of what a normal person would do at any one thing and I'd just walk out of there with a big old grin on my face because we could never figure out what wacky thing she was going to do next. It got to be the biggest game with me.
CUNNINGHAM: One time we're walking back to the house with Ramtha and she said, ?How did the people do?? And I said, ?Some of those human beings are nut cases.? And she started, well Ramtha started, laughing and she tried to zoom ahead of me, so I didn't, didn't ever want me to see him laugh. So I always stayed ahead, but that was, there at the end, that was my biggest thing. Then I asked about dogs, I said ?You know, you do a lot of talking about the ?old days,? and the camp grounds and everything, no dogs?? And she said ?Oh, we had jackals used to follow us and eat the scraps.? And I went, ?Oh, ok, that's cool, you never had a dog.? But then when you start reading about dogs and how they domesticated themselves they've got new theories on that now, it might be pretty true, if it was that way, but as we know the time lines don't work.
MCCARTHY: Well we're on a different time line.
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah, that's right.
MCCARTHY: Well, Glen, thanks so much, I mean, this is from a lot of people that I'm speaking for.
CUNNINGHAM: I want to be able to help. If we can help one, it's well worth it.
Video Interview link....
Glen Cunningham Interview Part 1. JZ Knight. Ramtha. Cults. - YouTube
Ramtha Cult Glen Cunningham Interview Part 2 - YouTube
Glen Cunningham Q & A Interview Part 1 . 42 Minutes
Glen Cunningham Q & A Interview Part 2. 38 Minutes