Neuro linguistic Programming (NLP) in RSE

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Another Dimension60
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Neuro linguistic Programming (NLP) in RSE

Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:42 pm

Following are a few excerpts from an article about hypnosis and neuro linguistic programming ? This article, ironically, has finally given me understanding and acceptance of what happened to me and to so very very many of us in JZ?s ?arena? (literally and figuratively). Even though I?ve seen the Derren Brown videos, and as much as I?ve learned about cults and brainwashing, I?ve been baffled for 20 years re how could I have gotten so suckered when, particularly from ?89 on ?the School? and ?Teachings? were mostly contrary to what I believed. Interesting to me that although brainwashing and hypnosis are almost synonymous, I didn?t really ?get? until this article how hypnosis/brainwashing can happen absolutely without our knowledge or recognition --- with techniques developed by a professional wanting to help people!!!
Two separate definitions of ?hypnosis?:
1. First, hypnosis, is ?a particular altered state of hyper-suggestibility brought about in an individual by a combination of relaxation, fixation of attention, and suggestion.?4
2. Second, hypnosis is also ?bypassing the ?critical factor? and setting up acceptable selective thinking.5? The ?critical factor? is the conscious part of the brain that you think with that has the ability to make rational logical judgments about what information is received.6 The critical factor acts as a filter, determining what can pass into the subconscious mind which is a non-rational computer-like system which accepts everything in it as absolute truth.7 That is why sidelining it is so dangerous.
Milton Erickson, had a broader definition of the unconscious mind, described as, ?both the functioning of the dominant hemisphere of the brain that occurs below the level of awareness, as well as the functioning of the non-dominant hemisphere.? 8 Ericksonian trance induction has three dimensions ?. They are:9
1. Pacing and distraction of the dominant (language) hemisphere;
2. Utilization of the dominant hemisphere, language processing which occurs below the level of awareness;
3. Accessing of the non-dominant hemisphere;
This above three part process is extremely important to later analysis. Essentially, hypnosis is an altered and common state of mind involving intense focus, sidelining or disassociation of the rational critical thinking, and the state of hyper-suggestibility brought about while the subconscious mind is the dominant player.10 It happens while reading, listening to music, and even while hearing a great speaker.11
However, the power of such methods is what is difficult to grasp. What we are talking about is ?transformational linguistics? ? language that literally changes who you are at your deepest levels, your deepest passions, drives, and emotions while you are completely unaware.
?The unconscious mind is the source of our energy, and no amount of conscious reasoning can override it. The unconscious mind is un-critical, it accepts as absolute truth any idea that is allowed to enter its computer-like system?13 The messages of hypnosis, including mass hypnosis, can be far more powerful than just someone?s conscious thoughts, as it affects their most basic biological drives and instincts.14
Dr. Milton H. Erickson, also known as the father of modern hypnosis method, was the single greatest practitioner of hypnosis, having dramatically advanced the field.15 Dr. Erickson is internationally acclaimed as the leading practitioner in the field of hypnosis16 for his understanding of the science of both inducing and utilizing hypnotic states.17
Dr. Erickson discovered while working as a therapist, that he could hide therapeutic hypnosis within the normal content of an inconspicuous conversation with the patient, and avoid much of the patient?s conscious resistance that normally accompanied hypnotherapy.18 Dr. Erickson realized the subconscious mind was always listening, and understood better than anyone before how to access it, and implant suggestions into it. What Dr. Erickson did was figure out how to put people into trance and hypnotize them and implant suggestions with seemingly normal conversation. He discovered that people could achieve this heightened state of hyper-suggestibility without the traditional difficultly-induced coma-like state traditionally associated with hypnosis. Though his pioneering understanding, he was able to do the same and much more often with simple plays on words and embedded meanings in a single sentence. The entire field of ?covert hypnosis?, or ?conversational hypnosis? is based on Dr. Erickson?s techniques, and is now primarily used by hypnotists and psychiatrists.19 Conversational hypnosis is often referred to as Ericksonian hypnosis. The word ?hypnosis? is never mentioned and there is nothing overt to give away that hypnosis is being used. It is impossible to detect unless you know precisely what to look for. Hack versions
of these techniques are unfortunately taught to be used as persuasion tools for salespersons,,,,
Covert hypnosis is designed to sideline rational judgment. That is fundamental to how it works; to bypass the dominant hemisphere and critical factor. It essentially tricks the subconscious mind into accepting commands as absolute truths which include not only those approved by the conscious mind, but outside commands from a hypnotist who can implant any suggestion he wishes.
Subconscious suggestions are more powerful than even what the subject believes consciously ? as such suggestions become parts of their deepest psyche. Because covert hypnosis is hidden in ordinary speech,

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ps

Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:34 pm

The above excerpts are from a 60 page article, all of which I haven?t read yet, about the use of hypnosis and neuro linguistics by a presidential candidate. My intention in sharing here is about how we who have been involved with the Ramtha phenomena have been literally hypnotized without our consent ? NOT about politics. There are also many footnotes and links to articles about these techniques which may be helpful to us all in understanding what happened to us. If the author of the article?s perspective of the political candidate he describes is true, beware? if it?s false, so be it? meanwhile the info re hypnosis and NLP has been very helpful to me and I hope helpful to others.
http://www.pennypresslv.com/Obama%27s_U ... eeches.pdf

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Unread post by Tree » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:09 pm

truly amazing.
Thank you.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:06 am

AD60,

That's really good information to have yourself, and of course for others to see, too.

It sheds light on, as you said, the "how could that happen to me" syndrome.

Excellent material for those on here that we know read/post, and those who read and never post. We're SO not alone having gone through this. Actually, we're all a lot alike in this regard: it can happen to anyone.

:wink:

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has NLP ever been used by ?exit counselors? / organizations

Unread post by David McCarthy » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:17 pm

Another Dimension60,

A great post thank you.
See below for some Derren Brown videos demonstrations of the power NLP used on the unsuspecting public.

I have a question for Joe...Robert,
Do you know if (NLP) -Neuro-linguistic programming, has ever been used by ?exit counselors? or organizations?
I?m curious about this,
I heard mention that the (ICSA) International Cultic Studies Association does favor NLP to some extent within its counseling program.
The other question that ties into this issue is>
Can the same methods "such as NLP " that are used to ?brainwash? a person, be successfully used in recovery?
If so, what are the ethical and physiological implications and its effects?

Feedback from anyone will be much appreciated.


enjoy the videos...

David


YouTube - Derren Brown Hypnotizes a crowd of people! NLP Hypnotism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hGmnKOg9BY

Derren Brown [NLP] -

http://www.truveo.com/Conversational-Hy ... 1482805613

Derren Brown Hypnotizes People To Think That Paper Is Money! NLP

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1110254/d ... money_lea/

Neuro-linguistic programming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-ling ... rogramming

International Cultic Studies Association:
ICSA studies psychological manipulation, cult groups, sects, and new religious movements.

http://www.icsahome.com/
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Unread post by joe sz » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:43 am

Do you know if (NLP) -Neuro-linguistic programming, has ever been used by ?exit counselors? or organizations?
I?m curious about this,
I heard mention that the (ICSA) International Cultic Studies Association does favor NLP to some extent within its counseling program.
ICSA related exit counselors have tended to avoid all use of NLP or hypnosis-like influence techniques. Back in the late 1980s and early 90s there was quite a debate with one 'exit counselor' who was accused by a few others of using and advocating NLP. The accusation was troward S Hassan. I think this has become a non-issue for the past ten years as all of us, including Hassan, continue to learn and change.
Can the same methods "such as NLP " that are used to ?brainwash? a person, be successfully used in recovery?
If so, what are the ethical and physiological implications and its effects?
Feedback from anyone will be much appreciated.


To me, NLP has been overrated as has been hypnosis for effecting longlasting changes--it is not the hypnosis or suggestive "modelling" and "mirroring" techniques of NLP that work to effect change but the social reinforcement over time. Of course, if a salesman uses NLP [and many do even unconsciously] to move you to sign a contract, that is different. You bought the d@mn thing by signing your name on impulse. The sales guy is no longer interested in controling your life.

Some post-cult therapy utilizes hypnosis to help relieve PTSD, anxiety, and certain phobias.
A rule of thumb here is that if the disorder leaves easily through NLP, it can easily come back even in another guise.

NLP is no substitute for hard, mental work to reinforce better thinking skills and healthy information in recovery.

Joe

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:17 am

joe sz wrote:ICSA related exit counselors have tended to avoid all use of NLP or hypnosis-like influence techniques. Back in the late 1980s and early 90s there was quite a debate with one 'exit counselor' who was accused by a few others of using and advocating NLP. The accusation was troward S Hassan. I think this has become a non-issue for the past ten years as all of us, including Hassan, continue to learn and change.
I can comment on this issue by sharing the following;

I know that some people on EMF (myself included) had it brought to their attention that a specific woman, from ICSA, said directly to someone that will now remain unnamed, that she uses NLP techniques in recovery work on those who are exiting "cults". That woman is still very involved and active in ICSA. Personally, I think that is ethically corrupt. Now, I understand that my comments here sound vague. But, in fact, I have a lot of details. I'm just not being forthcoming about it at this time.

I think that for folks exiting a cult, it's very important to also look at the agendas other folks might have, who are "anti-cult" type of folks. I think there is a danger that they, too, can become every bit as "invested" (and I'm not just talking financially at all !), in being as "right" and "coercive" as the guru was, in the cult.

Unfortunately, there are no criteria in place to keep "cults" in check, nor are there for "exit counselors" or groups connected to them. There are people in any position, from any walk of life, any profession, that sadly abuse their power and/or authority. Yet, when leaving a coercive group such as RSE, it's doubly important to know who one is talking to, when looking for educational information and emotional/psychological support, too.

A Code of Ethics is a good place to start ... and who's watching to monitor that it's enacted and enforced ?

Nobody, unfortunately. I could be missing information, but I don't think anything has changed.

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Unread post by joe sz » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:25 am

Carol G who works for ICSA has been one of the most consistent voices against using NLP since I can recall from the 1980s, if that is the reference.
I have no idea who you are talking about, watcha.
If you want to email me in private, go ahead. This may a misunderstanding.

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Unread post by Tree » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:13 am

I have a lot of details. I'm just not being forthcoming about it at this time.
that whole paragraph is somewhat amusing.
here, we are trying to expose things and encourage people to speak out.
this line is so cryptic.
maybe just not say anything right now rather than bait people
as it were, indeed

:shock:

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:28 pm

Tree wrote:that whole paragraph is somewhat amusing.
here, we are trying to expose things and encourage people to speak out.
this line is so cryptic.
maybe just not say anything right now rather than bait people
as it were, indeed
Tree,

As far as my comment goes, I firmly stand by it. You can perceive it how you want to, obviously. However, I do not at all see my comments as "baiting" anyone; that's your view.

I don't think it takes a lot of thought to know that there are lots of things that need to be "exposed" in their own time and in their own way. What we say, how we say it, and WHEN we say it, is not at ALL amusing (which I think is a rude thing to say). What I do/say affects more than just myself. It's NOT all about me; it's about those near me, as well.

I am confident that I'm intelligent and patient enough, to speak out when in MY own way, without criticism, thank you.

I also have a right to speak honestly and state the fact there there is more that I am able to say. Cryptic ? Not at all. FACT. I think it's important to have stated.

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Unread post by Tree » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:40 pm

Now, I understand that my comments here sound vague.
and THAT is was.

thanks for shedding some info

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:59 pm

Tree,
maybe just not say anything right now rather than bait people
as it were, indeed
These are very difficult issue we are all trying navigate through......
How about some constructive help here?

David.
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:25 pm

I want to comment further on the overall topic of what I?ll call ?whistle blowing?. Perhaps it?s food for thought, for everyone. Along that line, here are my comments and opinions.

I see two issues here:

1) The pot calling the kettle black.
I have openly admitted that I have not come forth with all that I could; not to be confused with a lifetime of silence at all. However, we all have an obligation to look in the mirror, before we jump on someone else?s case. Have we done what we are accusing others of doing ? Among the information that I have, and haven?t shared, are RSE experiences Tree has confided in me. No matter what, those experiences have not been repeated. If we are ALL about ?exposure?, then criticizing me for doing what has been personally done, is ? well, fill in the blank with your own adjective. Even when I am angry at someone, I don't use that opportunity to breach a confidence about people to others; an attempt at character assassination for personal agendas. Also known as triangulation in psychology.

2) Respecting boundaries.
We ALL have a right to speak about what we feel is appropriate, given all our personal circumstances, in our own way and in our own time. We don?t have to explain ourselves to anyone. Nor, should we be criticized for it. There are people who have come to EMF, and said little, then left for good. They have moved on, rebuilt new lives and completely closed the RSE door, which also meant for them, closing the EMF-reminder-of-it-all door. Those people could have spoken volumes about what they experienced, and chose not to. Are they wrong ? Let?s hope not.

As a general comment, I will make a suggestion. When in doubt, or when thinking about the ?cup half empty?, we can all consider asking a question to gain more understanding, instead of choosing a personal attack because we?ve assumed the worst. When being asked a question, don?t assume a personal attack, but an attempt to understand something, so that negative assumptions are not formed without even the courtesy of asking for clarity.

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Unread post by Tree » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:10 am

whatcha-
both your posts you perceived a personal attack on you from me.
that is not the case.
I was merely pointing out it was so vague and non disclosing in nature
that any point you were making was lost in translation.

and....
I have not confided in you personally anything that I have not done so here.
I believe I had one phone conversation over a year and a half ago
that I don't really even remember because of the newness of the space I was in.
I don't even know you.

You're kind of making a mountain out of a mole hill
when there wasn't even a rodent present.

I have left my responses quite short until now.
Take it where you will.
This is not a big issue.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:22 am

we had more than one phone conversation. more than a few, actually, and you know plenty about me and vice versa.
yes, you did confide things you did not want repeated. and i did not repeat them.
that i am making a mountain out of a molehill...well...we can agree to disagree about that. nobody should have to receive sarcasm because they chose to comment that there's more to their story. a question asking for clarity, sure. sarcasm, no.

moving on...

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Unread post by Tree » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:54 am

whatcha-
must have been a misread there
because there was no sarcasm whatsoever.
and as David interjected,
I thought I was giving a suggestion (as in why say anything?
the point got lost).
Apparently it was not received that way.
I have no idea where the pot calling the kettle black came into play.
That was over my head.


as I said,
because of the state I was in , I only recall
one conversation with you.
I don't know anything about you
other than what you reveal on here and
on your website.
....shrugs

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Unread post by Tree » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:59 am

one more thing.....

you called it whistle blowing
and joe pointed out it might be just a misunderstanding. I think that is it in a nutshell.

apples and oranges here
but you took it out on me
as I am still trying to tell you
I was not attacking you or said anything sarcastic.

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Unread post by joe sz » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:34 pm

I agree with Tree. Unless the evidence is offered here this remains a non-issue for me because I have no idea what to comment on. I recall trying to look into this conflict with ICSA a couple of years ago but with no resolution and frankly I cannot recall details.

Watcha on the other hand has a right to reveal or retain what she wishes.

As far as I am concerned this is a dead topic for anyone without the evidence.

It is like saying I saw something dangerous and have pictures but I will not show them to you.

Does that make sense, Watcha?

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:24 pm

Crikey Joe,
Do you also agree with this statement by tree?
maybe just not say anything right now rather than bait people
as it were, indeed
Here is tree jumping the tracks, and as usual "I am sorry to say this Joe"
But by your saying nothing...just enables this form of hypocrisy on EMF.
Wolfman, Tyger, Blueheeler ?case in point.

Joe,
As you well know ...we are working behind the EMF scene to bring to the attention our concerns
regarding the possibility that (NLP) was, or, is being used by exit councilors.
Including is our concern about Carol Giambalvo who is now a director for the ICSA.
I will say that I have little trust in Carol G who slammed the door in my face several years ago,
"Red Flag"... she was cold and unprofessional, her behavior was totally uncalled for, for a so called cult exit counselor.
I will post my own experiences about that later on EMF... but for now,
She has yet to reply to my Email, asking the questions:
Does your organization favors the use, or has ever used "Neuro-linguistic programming" within your ICSA workshops and counseling programs designed to help former members of cult involvement?.

From my understanding Carol G was trained in NLP, so considering the ICSA is a business that encourages former victims of cult abuse to attend their ongoing workshops... $$$$
so lets all have a look at this.
And "in my opinion" those "experts that "Poo Poo" (NLP) have not done their homework, they have underestimated the intelligence of cult leaders such as JZ Knight to used every dirty trick in the book to control their victims.
As far as I am concerned this is a dead topic for anyone without the evidence.
Joe,
This is a very black and white thinking....you are a member the ICSA, why not inquire?

Would you not slow down if a passing driver told you there was a rockfall ahead?
Where there is smoke..often there is fire.

David.
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Unread post by Tree » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:24 am

apparently this is a hot issue of some sort that I do not understand.
I was merely referring to the vagueness of the semantics of the post-NOT the issue at hand.

I have no clue, nor any interest in heresay about Carol G.
I would think Joe would be the most informed here.

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Unread post by ex » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:49 am

nlp at rse.this is such an important isue .it was a major breaktrough for my recovery to understand:ok somethings wrong my guts and my logig are not working together in an extreme way.something happened at rse.i thought about hypnosis but couldent conclude it.finaly the derren brown stuff made it klick.now i could start separeting things.good and bad.also the question how is she doing it and why does nobody leaves screaming?1000 including me idiots?the diciplins:break your old persona down have clean slate for putting new programing in.the teachings with the elaborete sentences which sounds so genious.but you couldent make for 5 ct sence out of it.the playing of the crowd[just like goebels who got the germans to agree to the total war]the bad thing is we agreed in one weak moment to this.and she proudly sayed it in our face[you need to be brainwashed] since we have ouer recovered teritory to defend we might be too hostile to newbees who still are impressed by jzr. or see each other too soft against rse.information like from this board is definitly helping out of the swamp.

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vagueness of the semantics of the post...?

Unread post by David McCarthy » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:35 am

apparently this is a hot issue of some sort that I do not understand.
I was merely referring to the vagueness of the semantics of the post-NOT the issue at hand.
Tree,
here you go again , :cry:
Hot issue aside here...
There were no "semantics" in Watcha's post.
EMF posters have a right to not provide full disclosure if they so choose,
without being called out with your sarcasm and criticism, this really disturbs me to see it played out on EMF.

If you do not understand a point of view then simply say so...without the swipes.

David.
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Unread post by joe sz » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:22 am

David, Watcha,

I really had no idea you were yet on a campaign to expose ICSA.

Goodluck..but I really think you are off the rails on this one about NLP and ICSA. You both really need to clear this up and soon.

btw, I have no formal relationship with ICSA or any cultawareness organization. By that I mean I am not on a payroll or retained in any way as a committee member or staff. If I attend conferences, I pay like anyone else. I have no power to vote anything in or out. I do send in an annual fee to get their literature and that gives me a slight discount for conferences. I volunteer to do bookreviews and assist with people looking to them for help or information. I am resource, not a member. Be careful with your language here.

as far as this:
She has yet to reply to my Email, asking the questions:
Does your organization favors the use, or has ever used "Neuro-linguistic programming" within your ICSA workshops and counseling programs designed to help former members of cult involvement?.
I will approach her to try to get a statement with permission to post here. Is there anyone else you would like to name that you know or believe uses NLP manipulations in ICSA? if not, I understand.
Quote:
As far as I am concerned this is a dead topic for anyone without the evidence.

Joe,
This is a very black and white thinking....you are a member the ICSA, why not inquire?

Would you not slow down if a passing driver told you there was a rockfall ahead?
Where there is smoke..often there is fire.
Why black and white? All I am asking for is evidence. No one among my colleagues [dozens] since I knew CG from 1986 has ever accused her or oldCAN or AFF/ICSA of promoting or using NLP. She was on the board of both orgs. I am not ruling it out. Maybe it could happen. I attended only one ex-member workshop run by Carol and others in AFF many years ago--no NLP smoke or fire at that one.

If this is a matter of feeling offended because I do not believe you, please, we are adults here. All I am asking for is a cool representation of evidence from all sides.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:32 am

Joe said, "I really had no idea you were yet on a campaign to expose ICSA. "

Joe, I am just getting online and checking the posts. Just saw this from you ...

I will speak for myself. I'm not on any campaign to expose ICSA.

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Unread post by joe sz » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:00 am

watcha
I will speak for myself. I'm not on any campaign to expose ICSA
shows what I know
I already wrote to carol....

Joe

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skeptic view of nlp

Unread post by joe sz » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:37 am

This is a pretty good synopsis of NLP. I hope ity helps that some people are making too much of NLP's powers. It is not NLP that works but the belief in it that makes people more compliant within NLP workshops.

http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html
Do people benefit from NLP?

While I do not doubt that many people benefit from NLP training sessions, there seem to be several false or questionable assumptions upon which NLP is based. Their beliefs about the unconscious mind, hypnosis and the ability to influence people by appealing directly to the subconscious mind are unsubstantiated. All the scientific evidence which exists on such things indicates that what NLP claims is not true. You cannot learn to "speak directly to the unconscious mind " as Erickson and NLP claim, except in the most obvious way of using the power of suggestion.

NLP claims that its experts have studied the thinking of great minds and the behavior patterns of successful people and have extracted models of how they work. "From these models, techniques for quickly and effectively changing thoughts, behaviors and beliefs that get in your way have been developed."* But studying Einstein's or Tolstoy's work might produce a dozen "models" of how those minds worked. There is no way to know which, if any, of the models is correct. It is a mystery why anyone would suppose that any given model would imply techniques for quick and effective change in thoughts, actions and beliefs. I think most of us intuitively grasp that even if we were subjected to the same experiences which Einstein or Tolstoy had, we would not have become either. Surely, we would be significantly different from whom we've become, but without their brains to begin with, we would have developed quite differently from either of them.

in conclusion

It seems that NLP develops models which can't be verified, from which it develops techniques which may have nothing to do with either the models or the sources of the models. NLP makes claims about thinking and perception which do not seem to be supported by neuroscience. This is not to say that the techniques won't work. They may work and work quite well, but there is no way to know whether the claims behind their origin are valid. Perhaps it doesn't matter. NLP itself proclaims that it is pragmatic in its approach: what matters is whether it works. However, how do you measure the claim "NLP works"? I don't know and I don't think NLPers know, either. Anecdotes and testimonials seem to be the main measuring devices. Unfortunately, such a measurement may reveal only how well the trainers teach their clients to persuade others to enroll in more training sessions.
NLP works like astrology "works".

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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:43 am

perhaps not being as intelligent as Tree or Joe, I see Watcha's initial post as very clear, very balanced, and very sincere --- Her point was not about Ica or whatever - it was about being aware of not getting suckered again - even by persons/groups presenting themselves as helpful. Who Watcha's sources are or the specifics are irrelevant to the fact she presented - i.e. what was reported to her. ... In the same vein as David's metaphor -- she warned us of a car wreck ahead -- does it friggin matter the make and model of the car or exactly which moment it crashed or how exactly she knows that there's a car wreck ---???!!! ..... Again, glad I'm too stupid to see your/Tree/Joe's problem here so I can slow down and be cautious and not crash into the crash ahead.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:09 am

I am going to revisit my initial post, after which things took a?. a turn.

I was REPLYING TO JOE.

I intentionally did not name the person I was referring to, though I explained, in my response to JOE, that I had become aware of something disturbing, even though I was not posting further about it at this time.

What I heard, is what I heard. Obviously, I wanted you to be AWARE of it, but I did NOT ask for any intervention, or help with it. I am working on it in my own way, to gain the information that I need to so it will be fully verified or fully discounted or further explained; finding out all the facts about the truth. Yes, I absolutely have the right to disclose or withhold what I am intelligent enough to know is appropriate, SINCE I AM THE ONE IN THE SITUATION WITH THE INFORMATION. That does not mean that I should have to refrain from discussing what is being looked into. My opinion is that I have that right, and that I did so tactfully; without calling names, and also without stifling something that may prove to be important as an overall issue to be looked at.
What I could have done, is I could have posted and said, ?I heard that <insert> possibly did such and such. Does anyone else know anything about that? I?m asking because I heard blahblahblah.?
Now, IN MY OPINION, it would be inappropriate to give that much detail BEFORE I have crossed all my t?s and dotted all my I?s to find out IF so and so did such and such. However, there are red flags.

Personally, I don?t believe I?ve ever stated that the use of NLP is a bad thing all of the time. Is it possible it has its place and can be used for POSITIVE reasons ? I believe so. IF that is the case, then depending on the circumstances, an issue that could arise is the conditions upon which it is used, as it relates to ?informed consent?. THAT is why and at what point, I segued into the comments about ?oversight? (Code of Ethics, certification, etc).
The efficacy of NLP use is even in question.
Now, aside from that, if what I heard proves to be truthful, which would be unfortunate news, what matters is whether or not it?s the truth.

Moving forward a number of posts?

It seems to me that there is more than one issue coming up in these posts.

** David has mentioned an ICSA-related issue. That?s one issue. I did not refer to HIS issues, though I understand what that is about, I won?t be adding my unsolicited opinions about it unless or until he becomes specific and it?s appropriate for me to be able to speak from experience and know what I?m referring to.
** Trees unappreciated interjections about which she cited an opinion, that I ought not to use vague comments. I disagree. I also disagree with her personal comments. Period.
** I made no request for intervention by anyone, certainly not on my behalf.
** The specific topic of NLP; it?s overall use, efficacy and the ethical implications therein.

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:14 am

I really had no idea you were yet on a campaign to expose ICSA.
Oh I see what you are getting at...!
Just like you are on a campaign to convert everyone to Catholicism on EMF... :roll:
I am resource, not a member. Be careful with your language here.
Joe,
But...You are a member of the ICSA. And I am very much "careful" of my language here.
Is there anyone else you would like to name that you know or believe uses NLP manipulations in ICSA?
No,
but.. if I hear of someone I will certainly take the time to email them and ask.
I will approach her to try to get a statement with permission to post here.
Great..
Thank you Joe.

David.
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Unread post by joe sz » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:39 am

maybe "campaign" was the wrong word but this does seem very important to you. I am merely trying to help out.

btw I was referring to "member" as in:
Government. a. a member of Congress, esp. of the House of Representatives.
b. a member of the British Parliament, esp. of the House of Commons.
c. any member of a legislative body.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/member

but I get your drift...I am a member-supporter in a general sense

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Unread post by journeythroughramthaland » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:28 am

ad60,

You bring up an interesting topic re the use or misuse of NLP and hypnosis.
I think an important thing to remember is there is much controversy with regard to both as to their efficacy and long term effects. The debate revolves around the active participation of the subjects even when it may appear that they were not actively participating.

As human beings involved in a larger society we are at all times exposed to influences that are beyond our everyday senses. In that context one might say that we are exposed to influences that we are unaware of. Certain people like Derrin Brown spend a large amount of their time making a study of this and his performances show the potential of its effects. in my opinion, it is more about his multifaceted knowledge of influencing techniques coupled with his skill as a performer that enable him to perform successfully (though one must keep in mind that you will not see often the times he does not perform successfully). The reason for this is because the majority of us would become bored watching all the unsuccessful attempts.

I feel we really want to see him fool people. i also find interesting that he sometimes explains how and what he did. I am also assuming that he did not reveal everything. Not because he wanted to retain some secret, only that he has given enough to make his point.

The facts are that people do not respond in a rational manner in all cases. Polls have shown that 80% of the population believes in UFO's and aliens. even though no alien spacecraft have been located and no alien bodies have been found. Then there are angels, big-foot etc. I am not making fun of anyone who may believe in these things only stating how common the beliefs are.

Yet, the fact that they are common does not make them factual. perhaps this is the case with NLP also. The fact that people respond in the way they do does not necessarily indicate the validity of NLP. Though I think it a worthwhile technique to investigate and explore.

One can not underestimate the power of social influence. On another thread there was some discussion on how people witnessed physical abuse in RSE yet did nothing. This phenomena is not unique to RSE, in psychological terms it is often refered to as the "bystander effect". It appears in everyday society as well. One famous example was Kitty Genovese in the sixties in queens. She was killed in front of 38 witnesses who did nothing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

There is something we can learn from knowing about these phenomena, from this one in particular it is to know that in an emergency one should not only cry out for help, but they should also single out someone by identifying them as in saying, "You in the blue suit and long hair, help me!!" By doing this you will increase your chances of being helped in an expedited way substantially. i am fairly certain that most of you would have been much more inclined to help your fellow students who were the subjects of physical abuse in RSE if they had cried out for help.

To some degree that ability to cry out for help had been reduced through other social influences present in RSE.

Knowing how many of these influences work can take a lot of the mystique and extraordinary out of RSE experiences and place them in a context which while still unpleasant, may make them more understandable.
"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."
-William Mizner

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Unread post by Tree » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:02 pm

Well, now that I know what it is you are "trying to expose"
I have done a little research myself.

I spoke to Carol Giambalvo personally today.
She is aware of the post and the conflict on EMF.
She did not receive David's e-mail re his request this week.
She did receive Joe's e-mail.
She did recall the interaction with you David, and as you put it, "slammed the door in my face."
She did clarify that at the time you requested videoing the conference, she re-iterated again,
for the sake of clients' personal safety, that no conference was to be video taped.
Perhaps there was a misunderstanding.

She does not, was never trained in nor ever use NLP in any exit counseling.
She thought that was absurd exposing the very people who may have been exposed to
it, only to trigger possible episodes.
She does know that Landmark, est, uses Ericksonian hypnosis techniques; not ALL of the trainers use them
but many do in their training.

Carol has now retired from ICSA.

I will post in another post some pertinent information she sent along for former members.

Cheers.

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a stealth abuser on EMF..!

Unread post by David McCarthy » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:59 pm

Well, now that I know what it is you are "trying to expose"
But you have missed a key point here Tree,
What I am "trying to expose" as you misleadingly put it.... is all about abuse...
There is only one thing worse than abuse..
It is the denial that it even happened.
I call you out for what you are tree..a stealth abuser on EMF.
Joe has chosen to ignore my comments regarding "in my opinion" your "abusive" behavior to Watcha on this thread.
This is very disappointing, but he has a right not to comment.
Tree,
Lets have a chat about this issue..first and foremost.
This is the only conversation I'm interested in with you on this thread..
enough is enough.

David.

P.S.
This is not a closed topic.

View topic - Abuse on EMF.....!

http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... =5650#5650
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Unread post by Tree » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:56 pm

This is a pattern David which has reared its' head before.
I consulted several experts regarding this issue with exiting members
and with those people who exit who do not get professional help.

As it happened before,
and as I said before,
I do not have to play in your sand box.
I have only stayed for brief times when I feel my posts have helped others.
I don't live and die by EMF.

I have not been insulting or degrading or flaming.
I have a moderator who feels insulted and insists my posts are "unwanted interjections."
I thought this was a forum.
I even have a 30 year expert in the area who is agreeing with me.

I find it amusing that 2 ex cult members are disagreeing vehemenantly
with an expert in the field.
It just goes to show me that the more I grow, receive help and acknowledge resources,
the more distance grows with people who have not (um....that would be the moderators).

I have refrained for 2 years from being so frank,
but you both have bashed me in this thread and others when it is not necessary.
I thought we were talking about NLP this whole time.

As YOU have pointed out before about what you perceive as my actions in addressing you,
the same goes the other way. You are not the be all, end all, judge of ex cult members.
You cannot sit up on your EMF throne and say: "See? THIS is what happens when you leave a cult.
You end up like people like ________." As if you are devoid of any misgivings or
likenesses of a ruling party.

Several times in this thread I could have lashed back.
But I chose the higher road.
I have praised EMF for what it is.
I find it odd that when I make some pretty worthy posts,
someone, somewhere on the East Coast takes great offense,
and this lambasting is the result.

If you want to make it an ultimatum,
go ahead.
It's not going to ruin my life or my day.

and, of course this conversation is not closed.
you have preferred to air the laundry in public.

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Unread post by joe sz » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:00 am

journeythroughramthaland
thanks for trying to get this thread back on the rails :-?

I dislike getting into personal disputes on these forums
but
Tree, that last post was harsh, schoolyard 'tit for tat' stuff. It belongs in another venue. maybe y'all can start another thread or keep it off EMF as David suggests.

be nice. this is not about winning.....

back to jtrl comments: I think you are right about Derren Brown. I mentioned to someone else that he makes excellent demonstrations but he is also well-produced and edited.

In these situations of "cult influence" the techniques are not as important as the first step people take by entering into a charismatic relationship based on a belief enhancing experience. "ramtha is really there--it is not JZ" is that entry into charisma. From that point on the game is anything the leader wants it to be whether she uses NLP, praying in the holyspirit, wilderness courses, encounter group therapies, chanting, or whatever. saying it is NLP or hypnosis may seem sexier.

Stage hypnotists do not care whether you are in a trance or not as long as you play along with the game.

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barack to the beginning of this thread

Unread post by joe sz » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:17 am

I finally had time to look over the entire 67 pages article quoted from that began this interesting thread----
http://www.pennypresslv.com/Obama%27s_U ... eeches.pdf

Disclaimer: I voted for McCain, do not feel Obama was or is ready to preside over America.
Nevertheless,
the above unsigned article by who knows who from the pennypress Las Vegas is pure rightwingnut propaganda.

Although the author [perhaps editors Charlotte and Fred Weinberg??] recycle a lot of typical chatter about hypnosis off the Internet, both accurate and no so good, the article is pure ends-justifies-the-means in approach. We could apply the same nonsense about hypnosis and NLP to any good speaker in either party---their logic would work, for example, by addressing Rush Limbaugh or Bill Clinton's persuasive speech styles and mannerisms.

The author ends with a strange "personal note" on p 67:

Mr Obama, Your attempt to gsin the Presidency of the United States by hypnotizing Americans has failed. You sg=hall not pass! You have been stopped because you neither deserve the presidency, nor does America deserve your fraud and deception.....


You shall not pass! :lol:

This was one of the favorite commands used by Elizabeth Prophet and her CUT members in their decrees [command mantras] when confronting perceived evils.

I am not saying this quote is from that cult but I recognize an effort by the author to use the exact same "hypnotic techniques" he/she claims Obama uses. First lull the reader into a host of seemingly useful and established factoids, then apply the zinger suggestions to stop the candidate. And worse, do not sign it so no one can hold you responsible.

I am not buying this bridge to Brooklyn.....

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Unread post by EMFWebmaster » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:06 pm

Posted by Another Dimension60


Back on track with NLP
Back on track re NLP. As I shared in my initial post, it was reading re NLP and other hypnotic techniques that really helped make a ?click? of understanding for me of ?how in God?s name (literally) did I get hooked? by JZ. I certainly don?t consider NLP, per se, the only technique/modality of manipulation utilized by JZ ? there are a multiplicity of simultaneous conditionings that are used -- and it is obviously not JZ?s personality to have simplicity ? her home is cluttered, her stores are cluttered, are ?teachings? are cluttered, her techniques are cluttered. ? Perhaps part of the impact of the Hypnosis and NLP material is the fact that we human beings are so susceptible to being manipulated, and apparently, in spite of our best intentions, notions can be ?planted? in our minds without our conscious realization. Edited or not, Derren Brown proves that overwhelmingly ? even if he had a success rate of one person in a thousand it?s pretty impressive to me. Another aspect of the impact is that since my involvement with jz and ramtha (which includes all the aspects of my healing process) and in reading this message board, I?ve become more sensitive to the media?s manipulation, and more aware of people who are manipulative ---- which is not to say that I haven?t been manipulated again!!! ? just that I?m ?waking up? quicker.
It?s also clear to me that any ?tool? can be used for good or ?evil? - - quite simplistically: with a hammer I can build you a house, or kill you. As with most any piece of information in our contemporary world, there is absolute proof on the pro and con side?. or so it seems?. as it seems re NLP in this instance. All I know for certain is that I was manipulated beyond my conscious control, as are others. What I feel is important ? for all of us, with emf as an opitimal place to explore ? is how do we recognize manipulation? Is there a way to ?protect? ourselves from it? JZ is a microcosm in the macrocosm of our contemporary world in which we are being grossly manipulated. And, JZ is one of many individuals in our lives who manipulate/use/abuse/disregard who we are.
hmmmm. In writing this, I realize that there are related and separate issues here/for me. One is the hypnosis thing - i.e. the conscious use by a person of techniques intended to manipulate others to think feel act in a prescribed way. An other issue is people who manipulate/use other people for their own self aggrandizement/needs, which may or may not include any particular technique.

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Back on track with ICSA and other groups

Unread post by EMFWebmaster » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:10 pm

Posted by Another Dimension60

Back on track with ICSA and other groups
ICSA and ICSA and NLP are another related issue. Again it seems to me quite legitimate to raise question, particularly based on reliable information and first hand experience, regarding any organization which claims to help people get free from cults. Obviously Joe and Watcha and David have had different experiences and therefore have different perspectives. Personally, whereas, as has been frequently stated on emf, some people went from ramtha to another group/teacher/channel, ? others of us became particularly shy of any group/teacher/organization/channel etc. ? including a ?cult awareness? group. And, personally, I don?t know anything about ICSA. And, again, my concern is ? how can we tell if a group is just another form of manipulation. ?. Just like, years (and years) ago when I worked for what was called a ?drug clinic? which ran a hotline ? where people could call and have someone to talk with - - the program was aimed at all the street kids on drugs. There was a Christian rehab place in the area for kids ? what became clear to me was that the high of drugs was traded for the high of Christian fundamentalism. That is, there was still addiction ? just a different mind altering ?thing? ? no real difference in the person?s maturity. In my own family ? my fundamentalist Christian Cousin died at 60 ? anorexic, addicted to prescription drugs, clinically depressed ? all covered for decades with Christian rhetoric. ? which is not to say anything against Christianity ? only its use as a tool of deception, only when it or any ideology is only surfacely understood and ab/used, when there is not true integration of heart mind Soul. ? What then are the ?red flags?, what behaviors are indicators, what ?smells? indicate a rat in a group/organization?

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carol g statement

Unread post by EMFWebmaster » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:15 pm

Posted by joe sz

carol g statement
I will post this on the first thread also so no one misses it if they care about this issue:
If you want anyone to verify it, all of the facilitators of the workshop are listed on ICSA?s web site with their contact information ? any one or all of them would stand by my statement and would be appalled at the thought of any hypnotic or NLP techniques being used.
The ICSA recovery workshops? facilitators do not use NLP techniques or Ericksonian hypnosis, nor do we favor or recommend the use of such techniques in the recovery process for former members of cultic groups. The workshops are designed to be educational, respectful, supportive and a safe place for former members to address recovery issues. For verification of this statement, feel free to contact any of the workshop facilitators listed on ICSA?s web site.

Carol Giambalvo, Director of Recovery Programs, ICSA



http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:02 am

Thank you Joe & AD60,

Just a quick note.....
I have received word from Carol G.
I plan reply to many of these issues tomorrow.

Thank you everyone...
for you patience and understanding in navigating this very challenging topic.

David.
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:37 am

thanks Joe re the article -- as I said initially, my point in posting wasn't about the particular points the author of the article was making - it was the concept of hypnosis --
(as for politics and 'brainwashing' - I don't need to read 67 pages of someone else's bs - all I have to do is watch the evening news on "regular" tv stations - nothing even as 'sophisticated' as CNN - to recognize a world being brainwashed). (once you google that topic: obama and nlp, that article shows up a bajillion times - possibly an author attached somewhere. How humorous if he is a CUT member!!)

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:26 am

AD60 & Joe,

the article was published many times as AD60 said, and when I followed some links, I found it published on www.scribd.com, which has a ? document reader, anyone can easily upload and immediately share their original works on Scribd.com or any other website.?

? Further clicking on links from scribd.com, uncovered this:


The article is written by ?Anonymous? and co-authored by Dr. Wil Horton. He?s a licensed psychologist and Master Trainer of NLP. Horton is cited as saying,


About the article, it?s posted, ?AN EXAMINATION OF OBAMA?S USE OF HIDDEN HYPNOSIS TECHNIQUES IN HIS SPEECHES An Examination of Obama?s Use of Hidden Hypnosis Techniques in His Speeches Written by Anonymous, Co-Authored by Dr. Wil Horton THE EVIDENCE IS HERE: This document contains over 60 pages of evidence and analysis proving Barack Obama?s use of a little-known and highly deceptive and manipulative form of ?hack? hypnosis on millions of unaware Americans, and reveals what only a few psychologists and hypnosis/NLP experts know. Barack Obama?s speeches contain the hypnosis techniques of Dr. Milton Erickson, M.D. who develop?
As for Dr. Wil Horton, this is from his website:

?William D. Horton, Psy. D., Founder

William D. Horton, Psy. D., CADC, is a licensed Psychologist, an alcohol and drug counselor, a Master Trainer of Neuro Linguistic Programming, a Certified Hypnotherapist and trained through the Red Cross program for Critical Incident Stress Debriefing. He has been trained in crisis/hostage negotiation by the FBI at the FBI Academy in Quantico, VA, and also recently taught at an FBI Lead Crisis Negotiation Course. A veteran of the Army and Naval Reserve, Dr. Horton is considered one of the leading experts in subconscious communications.

Dr. Horton is an accomplished author of several books. His fictional book, Primary Objective, Neuro Linguistic Psycology and Guerilla Warfare is considered a mesmerizing fact-based psychological thriller. He has co-authored the newly released Selling Yourself to Others - The New Psychology of Sales and two Training Your Brain NLP workbooks. Dr. Horton's articles are featured regularly in "The Journal of Hypnotism," the country's largest hypnosis publication, as well as in "Unlimited Human!", The Journal of The International Association of Counselors and Therapists and The Unlimited Human Research Group. Dr. William Horton was awarded the 2001 Educator of the Year from IACT.

Dr. Horton has achieved international acclaim, as he teaches people to use the special gifts our mind has to offer. His background in Clinical Psychology has given him a unique insight as to how the human mind perceives both the material world we exist in, and the spiritual world that overlaps it. His knowledge and skills have made him a popular instructor throughout the various countries of our world. His courses include: Neurolinguistic Programming, Critical Incident Stress Resolution, Hypnosis, Performance Enhancement, and the Art of Business Communications. In addition to the intense live trainings, Dr. Horton offers Home-Study courses that allow busy individuals to achieve certification in their own time.
He is the founder of the National Federation of Neurolinguistic Psychology, NFNLP, one of the fastest growing organizations for NLPers in the world. NFNLP serves as a network for professionals who use NLP to share experiences, new techniques and applications, and other useful information from their fields of expertise. NFNLP and Dr. Horton have changed the face of NLP forever. It is NLP for the 21st Century!?

Just fyi...not sure what it all means...

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:30 am

ooops. meant to include this about the article. apparently the article is from nevada.



"An Interesting Article from the "Conservative Weekly Voice of Las Vegas' "

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Unread post by Kensho » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:28 pm

A lively post, but staying on track with the original...

[Back on track re NLP. As I shared in my initial post, it was reading re NLP and other hypnotic techniques that really helped make a ?click? of understanding for me of ?how in God?s name (literally) did I get hooked? by JZ. I certainly don?t consider NLP, per se, the only technique/modality of manipulation utilized by JZ ? there are a multiplicity of simultaneous conditionings that are used..]

Although I'm a rookie in the field, the more I learn about mind and thought manipulation, the more evidence there is to support the perception that NLP is used at RSE whether intentionally or unintentionally. Does JZ know that she is doing it or is she just repeating a process that captivated her mind also? I know that I was guilty of this sort of behaviour during retreats there. The repetition of phrases spewed out by JZR as well as recitation of whole diatribes of garbage to questioning fellow students became second nature to me. The WHY I did that still troubles me but for now I must admit that I had fallen into the "need to be right" and I served that need by convincing others that what I was saying was true simply by the WAY I asserted it. There was comfort in the agreement of social consciousness even if the social consciousness was manipulated in to that agreement. Unlike JZR who apparently as of yet has not come to terms with what she is involved in, at least I can see and admit that I was in the grip of delusion and a form of mental illness...even if at the time I believed that I was benefiting others (swallowing hard).

For crying out loud...I was participating in the very manipulative mind control tactics that had ensnared me. I even offered some proof to back it up for those who thought to question. I had cards off the fence at nearly every event, I hit targets, could navigate the tank, could remote view beyond the common trees, houses and feathers, had a complete recovery of both short and long health disorders (documented by MRI and blood work) and I had manifested considerable amounts of wealth from unexpected sources. Naturally I attributed all of that to doing the disciplines and did not hesitate to say so at events (usually by parroting something one of the teachers or JZR had said). I actually feel nauseated to admit to that because I know that I participated in deepening the mind manipulation of others. If nothing else I helped to clear the way for it to take place.

There is ample information available outside of RSE which describes how the mind, independent of the vast array of mind control tactics has resources and abilities which defy common thought and logic. There are those who perceive beyond the 5 senses more than the general population and there are documented examples of common people experiencing complete remission of diseases etc. At this point I am leaning toward the theory that what is most important to someone, increases their perception of the pptte that are in alignment with it. So far that theory supports the experiences that I have had personally before, during and after RSE.

My question is how much of the mind control at RSE played a part in allowing an increased perception and personal experience of these abilities or would it have been enough to simply introduce the possibility of them? Perhaps this is why books and films like THE SECRET which promote focused thought are so popular today. Granted most of these are sensationalistic but do they offer possibilities to those who likely would not have thought that there are potential rewards of exercising the mind beyond rote learning?

That takes me to the question of whether NLP is used on a more universal scale that suspected. How often do we leave the gates of our mind open to manipulation...or worse how much have we been conditioned to do that in modern society? When I consider the apparent ease with which my mind and way of thinking has been changed throughout the course of my life experiences I have to wonder is this normal or has it just been accepted as normal? For example doesn't TV set us up for that acceptance? How about religion, school and just about every social gathering we participate in?

A medical conference on autism I attended several years ago presented a good argument for how acceptance for conditioning is accomplished. It became apparent that it was NOT the information that was important but rather the WAY in which it was presented AND whether or not the participants were accepting of that form of delivery. Had they been preconditioned or could they conditioned to it enough to go into a hypnotic state whenever and wherever it presented, no matter if what the information being provided made sense to them? Apparently yes.

A film of part of the study involving children aged 3-12 was presented which demonstrated early neurological conditioning of TV on children. All the children in the film had experienced TV from 6 months on; either as educational programs, DVDs (Baby Einstein etc) and/or as commercial TV. At the start of the film, the group of children were in a room where they were occupied with toys, books and craft activities. High up on one wall a TV was mounted but was off for that first part of the film. We watched interaction between the children and interaction with the activities they had chosen. All seemed to be normal child-like behaviour.

Then the TV was turned on remotely to play a talk show from the BBC News. Other than possibly for the two older children, it is easy to assume that world politics was not of interest to the younger children...but it was THEY who stopped what they were doing and quickly became entranced. Watching the two three year olds was particularly disturbing because within a minute or so of the TV coming on they had left their play and were sitting on the floor under the TV, heads tipped back and looking very much catatonic. It was pointed out by the presenter that their rate of respiration, eye blinking and swallowing had decreased appreciably. They were essentially in a light trance of sorts. Within a few minutes most of the children followed suit with the exception of the two older ones who seemed to watch for a bit (during commercials) and then tune out. Surprise of surprises, the two older children were the ones who had been diagnosed with mild autism. The others had been assessed as normal.

The study presenter's point was this. The autistic brain is less susceptible to conditioning because by its nature it processes information differently than "normal" and that normal seems to be linked to sensory stimuli rather than the importance, relativity and quality of information.

In retrospect, the autistic children in the study seemed to demonstrate what JZR terms analogical focus while the normal children seemed to demonstrate an open trance state. There is apparently, at least when looked at in the study, a difference. Both seem to be either utilized or encouraged at RSE.

With respect to using NLP at RSE or in recovery from any group that has utilized it to a particular end, personally I would rather that those who were in the leadership roles of these groups would point out the dangers of blind acceptance and enhance, rather than reduce my mind's capacity to base any assessment of fact on real proof. [/quote]

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Unread post by G2G » Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:13 pm

joe sz wrote:journeythroughramthaland
thanks for trying to get this thread back on the rails :-?

I dislike getting into personal disputes on these forums
but
Tree, that last post was harsh, schoolyard 'tit for tat' stuff. It belongs in another venue. maybe y'all can start another thread or keep it off EMF as David suggests.

be nice. this is not about winning.....

back to jtrl comments: I think you are right about Derren Brown. I mentioned to someone else that he makes excellent demonstrations but he is also well-produced and edited.

In these situations of "cult influence" the techniques are not as important as the first step people take by entering into a charismatic relationship based on a belief enhancing experience. "ramtha is really there--it is not JZ" is that entry into charisma. From that point on the game is anything the leader wants it to be whether she uses NLP, praying in the holyspirit, wilderness courses, encounter group therapies, chanting, or whatever. saying it is NLP or hypnosis may seem sexier.

Stage hypnotists do not care whether you are in a trance or not as long as you play along with the game.
ANd pay the $$$$$$$$, as well.... :roll:
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972

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Unread post by Caterpillar » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:05 am

'For crying out loud...I was participating in the very manipulative mind control tactics that had ensnared me. I even offered some proof to back it up for those who thought to question. I had cards off the fence at nearly every event, I hit targets, could navigate the tank, could remote view beyond the common trees, houses and feathers, had a complete recovery of both short and long health disorders (documented by MRI and blood work) and I had manifested considerable amounts of wealth from unexpected sources. Naturally I attributed all of that to doing the disciplines and did not hesitate to say so at events (usually by parroting something one of the teachers or JZR had said). I actually feel nauseated to admit to that because I know that I participated in deepening the mind manipulation of others. If nothing else I helped to clear the way for it to take place.'

I'm sidetracking here as this topic is about NLP.

Unbound, I'm new to EMF and have started a thread about questioning RSE as a current student. I was just curious that you had manifested what you focused on. That's fantastic! Some students don't have the same 'success'. I'm one of them. One of the reasons some students leave the school is because they are not getting results but you did. If you don't mind me asking, what was the reason you left the school if you have manifested health and wealth from participating in the disciplines? My intention is NOT to support RSE with this question. If I had manifested those results, I wouldn't be questioning the disciplines. Most motivational/personal development courses use NLP. My friend in politics was sent to a NLP course. Just listen to Obama's speech - yes we can! It seems like we can't escape from NLP.

Caterpillar

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Unread post by joe sz » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:24 am

yes you can learn to avoid nlp, caterpillar

learn to "stop and think" as suggested by Dr Kathleen Taylor

Home

review by Joe Szimhart


November 25, 2004

Oxford University Press, Great Clarendon St., Oxford OX2 6DP, UK

ISBN 0192804960

Hardback, 324 pages

Ł18.99 (British pounds)

Challenging is one word I will use to describe this book. Kathleen Taylor challenges us all to "stop and think" in more ways than one, and for more than obvious reasons. Taylor is a research scientist in the physiology department of the University of Oxford. Her goal was to tackle the unwieldy topic of brainwashing as a legitimate pursuit of brain science. Anyone not familiar with the history of the term brainwashing will benefit from Taylor?s summary of its origin with writer Edward Hunter in 1950 and its subsequent insertion into the dialogues on influence, advertising, re-education, torture, thought reform, and cults. Taylor recounts what we know of early government experimentation with mind control. She relies heavily on the insights of Robert J. Lifton?s seminal work on thought reform and totalism in communist China to describe the social psychological frame. The author presents a discussion with illustrations about how the brain and neurological system respond to social and environmental stimuli and how the brain supports a reflective and responsive "self."

The author rejects a dualistic soul and body philosophy. Following a [more] materialistic and deterministic route along scientific principles Taylor argues convincingly that the self is malleable and more like clay than rock. Leaving arguments about the reason for existence aside, Taylor takes us into neurological territory about how reason works. The mutability of the cognitive webs that form the basis for consciousness she states is both a blessing and a curse. When properly exercised, the brain supports a healthy self that can "stop and think" before falling under the sway of undue influence. When neurological pathways and "cogwebs" (cognitive webs of neurons with their dendrites, axons, and synapses) become rigid or overly fixed, new information cannot impress the brain easily to stimulate a creative response "or to improve one?s own self-expression?" I?m not sure I catch the meaning here. In short, some brains are easier to wash than others, while others that might need washing for their own good do not budge.

The author defines "freedom" as ability to predict the future and reactance to circumstances that stimulate choice. In my words, if a rabbit hears a growl and sees spots on fur in the bush, it can predict danger and therefore it is more likely to stay alive. If that same rabbit also knows to run away in a zigzag pattern it has a still better chance of staying alive. Taylor?s examples include complex human social and intellectual interactions that both serve and betray the self as recorded in the brain. Flexibility that supports freedom (What is the antecedent?) depends on what kind of information we record and accept and how ingrained or "channeled" that brain pathway remains. Stubborn, ill-educated or brilliant persons might have strong pathways of pre-cortical and general brain functioning, but these very pathways might incline them to choose a harmful activity or ignore a healthy one. Taylor shows through neurological science just how what she calls "ethereal" or strong beliefs prevent more complex brain functions unless something surprises or shocks the system/person to rethink or reorganize pathways of response. To create a useful brain pathway we need repetition so that thought patterns facilitated by neural interaction can associate and flow properly toward decisions. However, influence can work by stealth, thereby tricking the brain to accept information, repeating pathways that are hard to change even if they are false.

Taylor divides her book into three parts. Part I examines "Torture and seduction," and how change agents use different approaches to influence and brainwash. Using infamous, well-documented cases like Jonestown, Patty Hearst, and the Manson Family as models, the author lays down a basis for what Part II ("The traitor in your skull") explains with brain science and neurology. Part II, Chapter 8 shows that we have an enormous capacity for self-deception, false memory, and confusing or not recognizing data. Taylor moves the reader through the brain and its parts to describe what happens when we make decisions and why we might seem to sway one way or another. I had the eerie sense as I was reading Brainwashing that I was also viewing how the author?s and my brain works.

For example, Taylor says brain science indicates that the "tolerance threshold (for challenging information) seems to be lower than we might expect." She is saying that we can be both lazy thinkers and we take in too much to process easily. In the next sentence she states without attribution: "Humankind cannot bear very much reality, it seems." (138) That triggered my memory of a quote I had written on my notebook cover in college in 1967: "For human kind cannot stand too much reality,"?T. S. Elliot. The connection exists in a different context of neurological fields in my brain than in hers, yet we both recognize the impact and meaning of the statement. There is no way for me to know that she knows that T. S. Elliot said it, or she may have merely forgotten that Elliot did. That I remembered it means that the quote had a deep enough meaning for me for it to remain readily accessible in my brain after all these years. Taylor explains how a change agent or manipulator can marshal our strong and weak memories to suit their needs by forcing us to bypass the "stop and think" modes of brain function.

Part III examines "Freedom and control," how we might lose these powers, and how we might protect them, not only by understanding how the brain works, but also how to make it work better. "Your susceptibility to brainwashing (and to other forms of influence) has much to do with the state of your brain," Taylor tells us on page 215. In this section Taylor proposes a FACET response to help humans avoid and overcome undue influence and totalist thinking. FACET is an acronym for Freedom, Agency, Ends-not-means (human beings are not merely means to an end but important in and of themselves), Thinking, and Complexity (somewhat rearranged) that the author applies to Robert Lifton?s eight themes of ideological totalism as antidotes. FACET is essentially a liberal approach to life, but one that demands effort and education to be effective. For example, Lifton?s first theme is milieu control. As an antidote "FACET emphasizes not only individual over group rights, but individual agency. By encouraging the development of critical thinking, ?." Lifton called this approach a "Protean style."

As Taylor explains, FACET is not merely a philosophical position. Taylor reasons from brain science how we might overcome a very real danger to the quality of human life. In Chapter 14, "Science and nightmare," Taylor discusses a host of potential abuses of human freedom stemming from the very science explored in the book. She lists movies like The Matrix, Blade Runner, and Soylent Green as examples or metaphors of very real scenarios for a human future gone awry if we allow our brains to fall into totalist patterning.

I enjoyed the book as a challenge to think about an area sorely neglected. I can imagine that some religious studies scholars might find the medical model of brainwashing troubling, but a careful reading indicates that the author is under no delusions about how much we know. Nor does she recommend legislation based on what we know. The FACET model is one that relies on informed consent and self-education, yet she warns, "individualism has its limits." There is strength in numbers, for after all we are social creatures, and our brains depend on interaction with our kind to sustain a healthy reality perspective. I applaud Taylor for opening up the brainwashing debate again. It seems that we in western society have been scared off or horrified by the very notion since films like The Manchurian Candidate and A Clockwork Orange first appeared to augment stories about horrible government and mental hospital "mind control" experiments.

I can recall only one significant attempt by a sociologist to describe "scientifically" what happens in brainwashing. In Cults in America (1983), Willa Appel tackles "The physiology of brainwashing" in one chapter. But Taylor, unlike Appel, did not write a social psychology text (36), although she summarizes that field in Part I. She does, however, build on research by neurologists like Michael A. Persinger that examines cult influence. (His 1980 book TM and Cult Mania has been a seminal scientific response to spurious claims made and odd behaviors exhibited by the Transcendental Meditation sect). Taylor takes the notion of brainwashing seriously as an extreme form of social influence that "is the ultimate invasion of privacy: it seeks to control not only how people act but what they think" (ix), and to apply what we know from science to the notion. I am not sure that the liberal, western perspective in Taylor?s proposed antidote to brainwashing will apply readily to all cultures. For example, Asian peoples that find value within group cohesion may resist an all-out individualistic approach. But the call to expand and exercise the information systems in our individual brains cannot be bad for any person from any culture.

Taylor makes an important distinction that she feels is lost on many skeptics that have a knee-jerk negative reaction to religious practice and faith. She takes issue with those who believe that "Science functions like a well-regulated brain, religion like a psychotic one." (141) To her, research demonstrates that "[m]uch religious practice is not concerned with abstractions, but with real life, testing out new approaches to social problems, experimenting with novel solutions, learning and applying ideas from around the world" (141). In other words, the more sophisticated faiths act reasonably within core ideas that are often ethereal. Taylor?s concern is with any human venture, be it science, religion, or politics, that restricts brain function from creative "stop and think" activity, which then becomes little more than another exclusive cult.

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Unread post by Kensho » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:37 am

Cat,
I don't feel that doing the disciplines of RSE resulted in the manifestation of anything. My perception is that what things were important to me came to fruition because I went after them both with intent and through mass to mass. My error was in attributing to my good fortune to the specific disciplines as taught at RSE.

If I think back to my time before RSE I did also seem to have the majority of what was important to me come to fruition in some form.

Case in point, most people who have ever done field work will find themselves either at the fence near the latrines when nature calls, or in the creek if they have a fear about ending up there. Blocking that stuff out and holding focus on a card, the tank, a target or whatever will usually get you there.

I left RSE because I realized that what was important to me (generating greater compassion, understanding and love) was merely given lip service at RSE. I could not go through one more event where I would be told that I was not passionate enough to attain that and so I would need to do more disciplines. If I had spent the time that I spent doing daily disciplines over three years, doing what brought me great satisfaction (helping others), I feel that I would still have "manifested" the good fortune that I did. Perhaps things would have come into my life even to a greater degree for myself and for the benefit of others if I had done that instead; if only because there would have been a greater alignment to that intent.

I will only know for sure if I hold that intent which is the what I have decided to keep doing. Never did let go of that...just got trampled in the rush for the food court a couple of times (LOL)

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Unread post by Caterpillar » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:54 am

Joe, thanks for the reference.

Unbound, thanks for the reply. It helped put things in perspective. I got caught up with students' manifestations. What you're saying is students like yourself that manifest their dreams in RSE were already doing that well before RSE and also after RSE. Your ability to manifest has nothing to do with the disciplines taught.

For eg. RSE promotes Salma H. success due to her doing the disciplines but she was already a star before RSE and would have continued to be the same if she never went to RSE. However, they always use her as an example of students' manifestations.

That also means students that did not manifest their dreams before RSE and they went to RSE hoping to learn to focus better but they still DIDN'T manifest those dreams. So RSE teachings did NOT make any difference.

I see, says caterpillar

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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:10 am

this perhaps belongs under "contradictions" = In the early-mid '80's, if anyone had an accomplishment of some sort (they weren't called 'manifestations' then) ramtha made a point of how we should thank God; i.e. not boast re our accomplishments.

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Unread post by Kensho » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:52 am

AD60,
Exactly and well said.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:24 am

joe sz wrote:Taylor?s concern is with any human venture, be it science, religion, or politics, that restricts brain function from creative "stop and think" activity, which then becomes little more than another exclusive cult.
Hallelujah !!!

I have found that in my life now, being more cautious and discerning, I am unable to respond to certain things right away. While it's not good for me if there is an impatience with a situation, or time is of the essence, I just have to say at times, "I have to think about it. I'll get back to you." In our faced paced society, there can be such pressure to "just do it", and make a decision, now . AAAAAAAAAhhhh, no.

[/i]

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:54 am

Cat,

You've probably (?) been in audience when R gives a spiel about how, when a student does the disciplines; let's take field work for example, R has said...

1) This is my school. If I decide you're going to find your card, you'll find your card. If not, you won't. YOU are in MY school.

2) All you have to do is focus and your bands will attach and bring you right to your card.

etc.

Line up for the next contradiction. Or mood that JZR is in.

Whatever has happened in our lives (win a few bucks in the lottery, whatever), that students attribute to RSE/JZR has no basis in fact. There is nothing to say that the "accomplishments" that student/customers receive while "current" in RSE, wouldn't have happened anyway, had they never been in RSE.

Just like there are people who have spontaneous remissions from cancer, and it never recurs again. We don't have enough data (I'll say YET cuz I'm an eternal optimist) to necessarily explain why (there are theories), but we do know some very exciting events occur outside of RSE and it's disciplines.

No proven, isolated variable such as "it's the disciplines" has happened.
hahaha...no proven (existence of) Ramtha has happened, either !
Seems that might be the first order of business..and even if it happened, unless one is WoWed, and put him on a pedestal, it existence would not be reason enough, to want to adopt his philosophy as our own. First, he'd need to prove his character as deserving our attention re: our spiritual lives.

(Just making the point that findind a card and getting the blueberry pie that you had drawn on there, doesn't mean it's from the teachings)

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Neuro linguistic programming? (NLP) use at RSE

Unread post by David McCarthy » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:56 am

From my perspective there are four topics/issues at play here...

1. Another Dimension60?s main topic:
Neuro linguistic programming (NLP) use at RSE
2. My questions to Carol Giambalvo regarding has the (I.C.S.A.) ever used (NLP)?
3. The reasons as to why I wrote to Carol with my NLP questions....
To be posted on a new thread
4. ?Dirty laundry?!? Tree?s officious and condescending attacks...
Also, to be explored on a new thread.

Here is my Email to the (ICSA) Carol Giambalvo 3/24/2009
Dear (ICSA),
To help us with our research regarding the use of NLP by cultic groups and its leaders,
I would like to know if your organization favors the use, or has ever used "Neuro-linguistic programming"
within your ICSA workshops and counseling programs designed to help former members of cult involvement?.
Sincerely,
David McCarthy
LARSE@ywave.com
________________________________________
I received this reply from Carol 3/27/2009 .
David,
you do not have my correct email address. I do not use AOL any longer. Please use: carol.giambalvo@att.net or affcarol@att.net You will get a formal statement from ICSA soon regarding your question. A personal response to your posts and others on your site is that I have not been trained in NLP and have never claimed to have been. I was in a group, some of whose ?trainers? were trained in NLP. When I left the group I had to learn what Ericksonian hypnosis and NLP were so I could understand the influence those kinds of techniques had on me. While those techniques of communication may be helpful in some circumstances where informed consent is given, to me it would not be ethical to use them otherwise.
Carol Giambalvo

________________________________________
Additionally, here is a statement by Carol G., that was posted by Joe
"The workshops are listed on ICSA?s web site with their contact information ? any one or all of them would stand by my statement and would be appalled at the thought of any hypnotic or NLP techniques being used.
The ICSA recovery workshops? facilitators do not use NLP techniques or Ericksonian hypnosis, nor do we favor or recommend the use of such techniques in the recovery process for former members of cultic groups. The workshops are designed to be educational, respectful, supportive and a safe place for former members to address recovery issues. For verification of this statement, feel free to contact any of the workshop facilitators listed on ICSA?s web site.

Carol Giambalvo, Director of Recovery Programs, ICSA"

________________________________________

I would like to thank Carol Giambalvo for making it very clear that:
"While those techniques of communication may be helpful in some circumstances where informed consent is given,
to me it would not be ethical to use them otherwise."
I don?t have much to add to what has already been posted.
I certainly believe JZR uses elements of NLP drawn from her bag of psychological and physiological RSE deceptions.
I do believe NLP is a real menace in the hands of unscrupulous people.
As with most things in life... NLP can be used as a positive psychological tool.
The Derren Brown videos demonstrate the astounding effects of NLP.
I highly recommend anyone who has not seen these videos to check them out.
YouTube - Derren Brown Hypnotizes a crowd of people! NLP Hypnotism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hGmnKOg9BY
Derren Brown [NLP] -
http://www.truveo.com/Conversational-Hy ... 1482805613
Derren Brown Hypnotizes People To Think That Paper Is Money! NLP
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1110254/d ... money_lea/
Fortunately or unfortunately....
Uncovering unethical behavior often becomes a test of our own ethical values and behavior towards others.
It certainly has been true for me in in this case.
My apologies for any distress my questions and remarks may have caused to Carol Giambalvo.

David.
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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To unbound

Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:45 am

It has taken me a few days to get this reply together...you posted these comments a little while ago ...

An Opinionated Reply to unbound... 8)

Unbound said, ?Although I'm a rookie in the field, the more I learn about mind and thought manipulation, the more evidence there is to support the perception that NLP is used at RSE whether intentionally or unintentionally. Does JZ know that she is doing it or is she just repeating a process that captivated her mind also? ?


Whatcha: Of course, JZ says that "she is not responsible for what Ramtha does." That would be the pat answer, and I have heard her say it. Now, let's take a look at that. What does that say to others ? If you were a channel for someone who told you that they were an evolved, ascended master, who loved his people and this planet (all of which "R" has said), then wouldn't you expect evolved behavior and reality (4th seal and up) actions, attitudes and behaviors from such a being ? Likely, yes. So, if you discovered that when this being was channeling through you, he was abusive (however that has manifested itself through the years), would you continue to be his channel ? If the answer is yes, then you would be as "responsible" as the alleged channeled being, for abuse. If the answer is no, then the being would be given an ultimatum; shape up or ship out. Simple. JZ IS guilt of whatever goes on there; NLP, no NLP, abuse, lack of substantiated claims, ignoring David McCarthy's request for communication, etc. However the teachings are conveyed, the result is clear; many/most people end up spiritually raped on many levels and it's not okay.


unbound said, ?I had cards off the fence at nearly every event, I hit targets, could navigate the tank, could remote view beyond the common trees, houses and feathers, had a complete recovery of both short and long health disorders (documented by MRI and blood work) and I had manifested considerable amounts of wealth from unexpected sources. Naturally I attributed all of that to doing the disciplines??

Whatcha: When we are successful before or after the school, we call it luck or hard work or both. When we are successful in the school, we call it manifesting and give our power away by attributing it to RSE. A hard lesson to learn for everyone.


unbound said, ?There is ample information available outside of RSE which describes how the mind, independent of the vast array of mind control tactics has resources and abilities which defy common thought and logic.?

Whatcha: Yes, even psychologists and psychiatrists, neuropsyches, and other scientists who work in fields dealing with knowledge of the brain, all admit that there is much to learn. Yet, there is also much that they do know. Again, the resources are available, even for laypeople, to educate oneself on these issues if the passion is there to do so. Books, audio, video, workshops & conferences; it's out there. Even moving over into the metaphysical-science fields, on the fringe...there is enough information available that the bottom line is still the same either way; you can learn without the RSE dogma. Or high price. Or coercion and control. You can learn in a much more free environment, and at YOUR own pace, not RSE's. Nobody will tell you that you NEED them ("You need me; I'm your hierophant and you can't evolve past a certain level without me.")

unbound said, ?My question is how much of the mind control at RSE played a part in allowing an increased perception and personal experience of these abilities or would it have been enough to simply introduce the possibility of them??

Whatcha: My opinion is that if JZ wanted to set the school up so that it had beginner/intermediate/advanced levels to it (just like a REAL college or even K-12), without the elements of CONTROL for your MONEY to continue coming in, then RSE would be a place that did NOT HAVE REQUIRED EVENTS. It would have TOPICS. If JZ were confident enough about what she was doing, and if she treated people appropriately, customers wouldn't have to be pressured/shamed into attending more and more and more events, challenging their dedication if they don't give more. But one additional thing (psychology has proven this, also), is giving inconsistent rewards. So, along that line, look at the balance of power in the relationship of the students-customers vs. the teacher. Without a curriculum for which she is accountable to deliver and responsible for SUCCESSFUL retention and implementation, rather than the current group of failing classes she has, then RSE would become predictable. If it remains unpredictable what happens ? Folks are scared witless that they're going to "miss THE event", right ? We've all felt that, I think. Or nearly all of us. So, we keep going...don't want to miss an event, or God forbid we miss a NEW TEACHING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So, yeah. It would be enough to simply introduce the possibility of metaphysical experiences, nix the overt fraudulent claims like becoming a God-realized in the flesh doing miracles 100% of the time, ascending into immortality, healing anyone of any illness 100% of the time, etc. But, she can't do that. It's reallllllllly bad for business; and she is ONLY about BUSINESS $$$$$$$$$ If anyone doubts that, try gaining free admission, even if you are a long time student-customer, if you've run out of money. You'll be told you need to focus harder to manifest the dough-re-mi. There are fair weather friends we have occasion to meet throughout parts of our lives; and their are money hungry sociopaths.


unbound said, ?That takes me to the question of whether NLP is used on a more universal scale that suspected. How often do we leave the gates of our mind open to manipulation...or worse how much have we been conditioned to do that in modern society? How about religion, school and just about every social gathering we participate in??

Whatcha: Personally, I don't know enough about NLP to say a whole lot about it; my knowledge is basic. However, along the line of forms of mind control, NLP being one method, I'm not sure if I'd call the aspects of what we experience in our lives, mind control. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, and I don't intend to do that, but what comes to my mind is more of an overall cultural indoctrination. It differs from culture to culture and it's encouraged to stay in place from birth to death, via the social structures in our lives. If that's all mind control, then yeah...that influence sure does exist in many aspects of society; some more forgiving than others.


unbound said, ?Had they been preconditioned or could they conditioned to it enough to go into a hypnotic state whenever and wherever it presented, no matter if what the information being provided made sense to them? Apparently yes.?

Whatcha: That's really interesting. It reminds me, though of a different topic, of studies on kids playing video games for even one hour. They're blood pressure goes up significantly.


unbound said, ?The study presenter's point was this. The autistic brain is less susceptible to conditioning because by its nature it processes information differently than "normal" and that normal seems to be linked to sensory stimuli rather than the importance, relativity and quality of information.?

unbound said, ?In retrospect, the autistic children in the study seemed to demonstrate what JZR terms analogical focus while the normal children seemed to demonstrate an open trance state. There is apparently, at least when looked at in the study, a difference. Both seem to be either utilized or encouraged at RSE. ?


Whatcha: Keep in mind, at RSE, we were ENCOURAGED to WANT to "attain" being schizophrenic. Why ? Because it would mean that we could slip so easily from one part of our brain, to another. Well, (insert humor), as long as all of my personalities agree to liking chocolate, we're good. (joking!)

unbound said, ?With respect to using NLP at RSE or in recovery from any group that has utilized it to a particular end, personally I would rather that those who were in the leadership roles of these groups would point out the dangers of blind acceptance and enhance, rather than reduce my mind's capacity to base any assessment of fact on real proof. ?


Whatcha: It seems to me that the basis of NLP is not necessary "bad"; and can have "positive" applications, from the moderate amount of info I know about it. However, when we are intentionally messing with someone else's thoughts by covert influence, is it not extremely morally corrupt and deceptive to engage such a tool without informed consent ? I believe so. :D

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:52 am

Whatcha,

Thanks for expanding on what I tried to express. Without a doubt JZR is responsible for what goes on in her organization and so called school; especially given that she has been provided with evidence that all is not so rosy as she presents it to be. Similarly it is clear that she is not beyond defending her own and/or her organizations legal rights given that there seems to be quite the appetite for law suits. She is not unaware of much. That is clear.

My question, "Does JZ know that she is doing it or is she just repeating a process that captivated her mind also? ? refers more to whether or not she is using NLP consciously or not. Did she receive training in how to utilize it or has she adopted a delivery-persona that is similar to one that captured her at some point? Something similar to the Tony Robins motivational system comes to mind. We of course need to get past the differences in content of the materials (Tony vs JZR) here and just look at the motivational style of delivery.

I am not looking to excuse the behaviour of JZ but rather am trying to understand more clearly my own behaviour as it relates to mind control. I have only a little knowledge of NLP and no training in it but as I perhaps only alluded to in my post, it seemed that fellow students at RSE believed that what I was saying was correct because of HOW I said it, not because of WHAT I said. The HOW was a simple copy of JZR's assertive, no room for elaboration beyond double speak, while the WHAT was a twisted quantum leap between evidence of "success" and the disciplines...plus as mentioned a whole lot of garbage that isn't worth gagging up to make a point.

Apparently just imitating the "original" is powerful enough to influence someone else into believing something that they normally would not. So back to the original question. Does JZ sit down and map out how she is going to perform on stage before hand or does she adopt a style of delivery that worked on her at some point; adding in the non-sense as she goes along?




[/quote]

Kensho
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Re: To unbound

Unread post by Kensho » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:02 am

Whatcha said:
"However, when we are intentionally messing with someone else's thoughts by covert influence, is it not extremely morally corrupt and deceptive to engage such a tool without informed consent ? I believe so. "

I agree completely. Taking responsibility for whatever fallout may be due to this sort of moral downfall is a concern. How does one reconcile it?

Tree
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Unread post by Tree » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:30 am

unbound-
"Does JZ know that she is doing it or is she just repeating a process that captivated her mind also? ?

I will never forget my initial exit counseling with Joe. (3 days)
He stated (a very good example of this point is the movie The Wave, based on a true story)
"The channel/guru learns as the group learns."
So if the leader tries something new and it works, she goes with it.
If it utterly fails, it is a "teaching" that failed miserably, never to be re-visited again.
Same can be said about a huge population with Hitler.

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:14 pm

Tree,
Thanks for the reference to THE WAVE; I hadn't made that connection. Saw that movie some time ago.

Trial and error....that makes perfect sense. Considering that one who is bent on attaining, increasing or even just maintaining supremacy might do so simply because of the egocentric/delusional perception of self importance is disturbing.

If a leader's control tactics develop over time through trial and error then it is also likely that their perception of self importance becomes enhanced as greater skill of controlling is obtained. Such a leader could start out trying to help others innocently enough, gain a following, loose sight of the original intent through the deluded perception of self importance (enhanced of course by the following's encouragement - idolization), then go on to justify any behaviour after that.

The leader's mental and/or moral imbalance would be mirrored by the following because the leader would first finds justification for aberrant thoughts or behaviour, will then test it out on their following. If it accepted, then the whole group adopts it and rewards the leader by that adaptation. No one but the "uninitiated" have the clarity of perception to see through the emperor's new clothes.

Even with this understanding, is it possible that a leader of a group could be so sheltered or deluded into believing that they are doing the right thing and not leading others away from mental health? I think not. Something, somewhere would have stopped them if they didn't have at least one foot on the shore of normalcy. Perhaps this is the reason for secrecy of the inner workings of the group. Its not about keeping the teachings pure, its about not allowing them to be looked at without the "proven" mind control delivery. Its about not allowing the "teachings/disciplines" to be seen for what they may be; mind control tactics.

Thanks again to all for fueling the contemplative fire. Its a rocky road but my boots are good and the blinders are off (smile).

Whatchamacallit
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:32 pm

unbound wrote:Whatcha,
Back to the original question. Does JZ sit down and map out how she is going to perform on stage before hand or does she adopt a style of delivery that worked on her at some point; adding in the non-sense as she goes along?
unbound,

Yes, I understand your original question, but I don't have a direct answer. I have gone over that in my head, too. Not specifically about the NLP label, but about coercive persuasion tactics, overall, and how much she knowingly does.

I had a conversation with a person a few years ago, about just that topic. I was unsure and still am. That person, however, told me a story about JZ sending a staff person to see a Guru in Europe, I believe. Allegedly, JZ paid quite a handsome fee to obtain a document about mind control for GROUPS.

If that story is true, then we have the answer to the question. But, for me, it's hearsay evidence, only. I heard it from the person to talked to staff. (I also have the person's name, but I see no point in posting that. That is, either who told me or the staff person involved.)

Also, in the small amount of information that I've read about NLP, the jury is still out about whether or not it is even effective in groups. One of the articles I read said it's best effective upon agreement between and therapist/client.

You mentioned wanting to understand how JZ did what she did to the students, to effect our changes in attitudes, beliefs and behaviors (brainwashing). Here are some links that you might find helpful. That we were manipulated, there is no doubt. Whether or not the exact label of "how" it took place, I'm not sure that the specific method of brainwashing matters. Perhaps it's a question we'll only ever be able to answer individually for ourselves and what we choose to believe about it ? Time will tell. Perhaps that's why I've concluded, in my considerations about "responsibility" that since JZ markets a product/service toward the end goal of enlightenment-God-Realization-in-this-flesh-body, and it's a false claim, she's a fraud and SHE is responsible because she she's a fraud. As soon as WE figure it out, we're outta there.

How Brainwashing Works
http://health.howstuffworks.com/brainwashing.htm

Some History and Facts about Brainwashing (really good info here)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing

An excerpt: "Frequent disputes regarding brainwashing take place in discussion of cults and of new religious movements (NRMs). The controversy about the existence of cultic brainwashing has become one of the most polarizing issues among cult-followers, academic researchers of cults, and cult-critics. Parties disagree about the existence of a social process attempting coercive influence, and also disagree about the existence of the social outcome ? that people become influenced against their will.

The issue gets even more complicated due to the existence of several definitions of the term "brainwashing" (some of them almost strawman-caricature metaphors of the original Korean War era concept[12] ) and through the introduction of the similarly controversial concept of "mind control" in the 1990s.[13][citation needed] (In some usages "mind control" and "brainwashing" serve as exact synonyms; other usages differentiate the two terms.) Additionally, some authors refer to brainwashing as a recruitment method (Barker) while others refer to brainwashing as a method of retaining existing members (Kent 1997; Zablocki 2001)."

So, I may not be able to answer your question directly, but I'm sharing what I am able to share, in an attempt to help.

Whatcha

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:48 am

Whatcha, thanks for taking the time to post your insight and for the links.

I agree with your perceptions...

That we were manipulated, there is no doubt. Whether or not the exact label of "how" it took place, I'm not sure that the specific method of brainwashing matters.

I am coming to the conclusion that further analysis of how or why mind manipulation works may only cause greater confusion for me. I do not have the educational background to fairly assess much of the information that has caught my attention but it has served to open my eyes to much more than I previously would have had the capacity to recognize.

I find it sad that so many people who sincerely desired something greater for themselves and/or others may have been manipulated away from attaining that.

journeythroughramthaland
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Unread post by journeythroughramthaland » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Hi All,
and, a hearty welcome to all those new posters bringing their perspectives to this forum!

Just wanted to add a bit on the NLP subject. Sometimes it sounds to me (and I am an outsider having never gone to the ?school?) that possibly in ones search for the culprit in order to fabricate a vaccination from it, that getting lost in the conversations is the ever changing nature of communications, in style as well as methods of conveying it.

I can totally understand wanting to find an ever elusive piece of the puzzle which makes it understandable and palatable for having been taken advantage of. I use this term rather then use the words ?mind control?, ?brainwashing? etc. because they are more theoretical then the actuality of being taken advantage of, or, feeling one has been taken advantage of.

Some of my thoughts are as follow:

NLP is a theoretical, ill-defined method and style of communication. I would have trouble claiming that I have never used it either in full or partially because of its ill-defined nature.

When we use words such as ?covert?, ?hidden?, powerful? etc. we are giving the theory all the more power to effect us. I say we all use in that sense ?covert?, ?hidden? and powerful methods of communicating and have so since we have been babes. In fact, it is more then likely one of our first form of communications.

We all use body language, expressions, and exclamations in order to help us get our way or persuade others so as to make our own beliefs more comfortable to ourselves. For myself, one of my favorites seems to be to ask ?What?? Huh?,? I seem to use these phrases when asked a question requiring some sort of commitment be it large or small. I guess I developed the habit as a child, I cannot remember when exactly it originated and only those close to me have been astute enough to bring it to my attention. I do not consider it a ?bad? trait, just something that allows me to catch my breath before simply responding. I also roll my eyes (so people tell me) when I am expressing disbelief or losing my patience.

Sometimes consciously but more often then not unconsciously, we pick up all of these bits of data about others through our senses as we interact with them and these bits of data get sorted through in order to give us our perceptions and intuitions.

Communication is not something that exists on its own, it passes back and forth through culture adding and subtracting as it goes. My feeling is that because of the nature of technology and the amount of information one deals with on a regular basis today communication has adapted shorthand of sorts in order to cope. Just look at all the acronyms being used instead of actual names for the sake of expediency, TARP, FDIC, For more complete list go here: http://members.cox.net/govdocs/govspeak.html, , see how much you don?t know or for that matter NLP, RSE, EMF.

In my mind this makes it much easier to glance over something when one does not know the acronym. One other thing is that it can help to create exclusivity for those that do. If one does not keep up with all the acronyms they no longer are as fluent as they might have been. On the other hand, those adapting quickly and fully communicating through the every day use of acronyms, may have in fact a potential for communicating faster (not necessarily better) and more importantly, I would think ?Losing something in translation? in the process would be an understatement.

What I do worry about is the nature of communication and the fact that it is viral in a way, it passes from one to another and becomes adapted in the society. It takes place due to the seeming acceptance of that?s societies members. When stimulated on a constant basis to want answers it stimulates a very basic need recognized since the beginning of mans thought (Who am I? Why am I here? Why are you here with me?) These questions while sounding simple have a virtually infinite number of answers and to that effect may be unanswerable. However, being stimulated to want to know can cause in some confusion to which outside answers can then bring a resolution, even if it is only temporary and that can FEEL good.

I have only read a portion of the article on Obama and NLP. So far while there is some seemingly valid descriptions and fact, it appears to be done in a way that is similar to the NLP they are discussing as far as being persuasive. However, I for one would say that there has been a movement towards this type of speech in politics and it has become more obvious during Obamas administration. Though he is hardly the first one to have used it. One of my favorite examples is of Donald Rumsfield when being asked about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. I could only find an abbreviated version that had no laugh track behind that is the first link; the second is the complete statement with a laugh track behind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RpSv3Hj ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR94yjZr ... re=related

What I found strange was the lack of outrage about a statement like rummies and the way the media and the public as well laughed it off. (Some of you have commented about the mass laughter in RSE at some not too laughable things).

What I am getting at is the idea of focusing upon something in one extreme culture (like RSE) and not paying attention to the roots growing in ones own larger culture. For me that is reminiscent of someone who is in a cult, recognizes that there are such things and groups as cults, can identify some of them, yet never looks at their own group as being one of them.

For me the dangerous part is when the parroting of ?mirroring? of speech of the leader/s creates a viral effect that has the ability to infect others and the person/s doing it are unaware of that taking place.
"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."
-William Mizner

California Dreamin'
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Unread post by California Dreamin' » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:31 pm

For me the dangerous part is when the parroting of ?mirroring? of speech of the leader/s creates a viral effect that has the ability to infect others and the person/s doing it are unaware of that taking place.
It's difficult for me to break the habit of saying "so be it." I've been programmed on such a deep level that I find myself thinking and using the jargon. Even when praying, sometimes instead of saying "Amen" I find myself saying "so be it."

journeythroughramthaland
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Unread post by journeythroughramthaland » Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:55 pm

Cali,

If you want to try and get rid of that (it will more then likely fall away in its own time though) you might try a rearranging of the words, "it be so", "be so it" etc, that gives you control over the phrase then you currently have.

What you speak of is not what I meant by dangerous. In another context, if you had a group of friends that you all started using the same expression as the infamous valley girl speak in Cali. you would find yourself using the expressions outside of your group until and if you got a negative social response by doing it.

I meant more along the lines of after having gotten involved with the particular philosophy and the selling of that to others using similar speech , body language and modeling of the leader/s behavior.

AN example might be if someone said to you when you were in the "school" what you are saying is philosophy, you might respond by saying "It is not philosophy, I am living it." This is a strong, convincing statement even though it might not be factual in the least. In a way it is like the acronyms, those in the "school" might take different meaning from it then an outsider. One thing it could mean is, "You don't understand, i am different from you, I have evolved to the point where I can move into living what I am speaking about, I create my own reality, I have had to venture places you have never been to in order to do this"
"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."
-William Mizner

Another Dimension60
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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:39 pm

some hurried random thoughts....
What I most got out of the nlp article was the concept of hypnosis - not necessarily or even specifically NLP - although I think those techniques are being used, among many others including physical deprivation. It's kinda like David's parasitic worms - the fact that there are ways to get through/passed/underneath/beyond our rational/critical thinking and 'planting' someone else's thoughts/motives/perspectives - - it's takes some of the sting out of being just another stupid sucker.
Thanks for your sharing CA Dreaming.
Guess there's lots of ways we learn and pick up info consciously and unconsciously -- jz uses a buffet of techniques.
Nor do I think Obama the first - politics now is just more sophisticated in the use of technology.
I saw an interview on tv with Greenspan(or whoever was the former head of the Fed Reserve) - he demonstrated for the interviewer how significant questions are answered with doublespeak, avoiding answering with any substance!!!

Whatchamacallit
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:44 am

About the topic of politics and NLP use, I just wanted to toss into the mix that it's not solely the policiticians quietly plotting out the use of NLP in their speeches (IF that is even true, and I'm unconvinced it is), remember...
They have speech writers ! At least, there would have to be collaboration between any (this isn't about Obama for me) politician giving a speech, their speech writer, and orchestrating the words, the body language, so seamlessly, that I just don't believe they are consciously doing that. There may be habits involved, unconscious body language, and even some conscious body language and/or words used. But for me to accept that Obama has so much mind control over the population who observes him...nahhh...they're giving him way too much credit. My question becomes what is the agenda going on, that is propelling the smear campaign against Obama ?

By the way, I'm not making excuses for him. I didn't vote for him. I would like to see him be instrumental in "fixing" the global economic crisis, as I would hope for ANY president in his shoes right now. I do agree with Joe, and did not vote for him due to *my* perception and viewpoint that he hasn't the background or experience to be the Commander in Chief of this nation. I would be tickled pink to be mistaken about that, too. Time will tell.

Caterpillar
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Unread post by Caterpillar » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:42 am

I am reading Steven Hassan's book "Combatting Cult Mind Control". It is interesting that after his cult involvement, Steven studied NLP and Hypnosis.

Steven Hassan, an exit counselor and former member of the Unification Church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Hassan

He later attended a seminar on hypnosis with Richard Bandler, which was based on the work that he and transformational grammarian John Grinder had done in developing Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP). Hassan felt that this seminar gave him "a handle on techniques of mind control, and how to combat them." He spent "nearly two years studying NLP with everyone involved in its formulation and presentation." During this period, Hassan moved to Santa Cruz, California for an apprenticeship with Grinder. He became concerned about the marketing of NLP as a tool for "power enhancement", left his association with Grinder, and "began to study the works of Milton Erickson M.D., Virginia Satir, and Gregory Bateson, on which NLP is based." His studies gave him the basis for the development of his theories on mind control.[4]

Hassan continued to study hypnosis and is a member of the The American Society for Clinical Hypnosis and the The International Society of Hypnosis.[5]



Any thoughts on this?

joe sz
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denver icsa 2009 w hassan

Unread post by joe sz » Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:49 pm

I am on my way home after 2+ days of a conference put on by ICSA mainly for a limited venue--maybe 80 people inclunding many mental health pros w PhDs atended. Good conference,. S Hassan gave a talk on his take on altered states and hypnosis. I spent some time talking with him personally, catching upso to speak because we rarely cross paths except at conferences. His book Combatting and the f/u releasing the Bonds still have value for anyone needing basic information. however, Steve as well as his critics see areas wherehis ideas and perscpectives need upsdating and improvement. perhaps he will write another book someday. What I am saying is that no one shuld take anything written i this field of cult behavior and cult criticism as 'Gospel.' Steve certainly does not expect it, imo.

I've said this before--NLP as an influence technique is overrated. A few counter techniques can easily override any suggestions made by hypnotists/cult leaders including Derren Brown. The key here is the "stop and think" mechanism in the brain that gives one time to reprocess a suggestion that cuts directly into our basic emotional brain. Of course, not everyone is equipped to stop and think about everything suggested, and sometimes one just does not have time or enough information. For example, you are low on gas and you see a sign that says "next gas 50 miles" you will probably stop. Later you find that there were gas stations available twenty miles down the road. NLP folks depend on this quick decision mechanism that undermines or overrides the frontal cortex of the brain, the very area where human personality works and seperates is from the animals that use a more primitve brain system.

There were several workshop at this onfernce that addressed this function of the brain and how ex-cult members can tap the resiliency of new neuroconnections to overcome cult indoctrination and triggers from the past. dr Doni Whitsett gave an excellent presentation, eg. When I can get her information I'll pst it here

Caterpillar
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Unread post by Caterpillar » Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:50 pm

Joe

Thank you for the info. Sounds like a great conference.

How was Lisa Monroney?s talk on ?Transitioning from a Cult Back into Society?? I have just read her thesis and posted that here a few days ago. C & E = R??? :shock:

joe sz
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Unread post by joe sz » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:05 pm

I missed Lisa's talk as i attended another one at the same time. I will have to read her paper too.

I wrote to Dr Whitsett to see if she has her paper or talk posted somewhere
Joe

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