Misconception professionals don't care

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Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:47 pm

Not sure where this goes. David, professionals DO care!! However, people have a choice-that's the law. I emailed this to you and i am not on this board to debate opinion. It doesn't assist regrouping.

Let me give you some stats. Are you aware of domestic violence? Rape stats? Do you know we lost approximately the same number of females in domestic murders during the Nam era as we did soldiers?

Rape stats? Isn't worth mentioning. Try getting a conviction on rape!!!!

I read a post that professionals do not care? Those same professionals have their guts twisted daily by addressing the needs of crack babies. Victims of others choice. Dealing with hungry, homeless vets and others. Mental health. Do not say they do not care. It isn't accurate or fair. No ONE person can take on the whole of societies ills. People are focused on what's touched their life or the life of a loved one.

Does EMF address all of the issues? No. Because it's too broad. And when it comes to "cults"? One, it's a word that's applicable across the board. Ever been around cops? Religion in general is "cultish". As a matter of fact i watched cartoons last nite-for a laugh. If i knew how to post it i would. Please do it on behalf of "cults", thank you.

Sneetches. YouTube Please take the time to watch it as it has obvious application to RSE.

Cults. I emailed this and you ask me to post it. Here it is. people DO have a choice. If not- then how do you account for EMFers? They got out.

Yes, i know about RSE mind rape. But is it any different than domestic violence? Unless you have been in domestic violence....be careful. People need support in getting out-yes. But THEY have to make the decision.

I have said on EMF (more than once?) that the idea of helping isn't to tell someone how to think. But to help them understand why they believe what they do. Ironically, LARSE speaker said same thing? In reference to you cannot violate someones will to force anything on them, "it doesn't work". No one has the right to do that to another.

Rape? i don't think you want to get into that subject on EMF.

Let me clarify something else. I have made it CLEAR i do not support RSE. I wasn't there when you were. My experience was completely different. But keep in mind apparently my emotional make-up is too. Because wine ceremonies scared me and scaled the wall and left. I could say a lot more but won't. Because i am not on EMF to waste energy arguing opinions. We all have one!!

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:19 am

Hi forever,

Thank you for posting.... :idea:
David, professionals DO care!!
forever,
my EMF moderator hat ...
It would be more helpful when posting a response to any thread not start a new thread....simply post a reply to that thread.. :idea:


If readers are confused as to what forever is referring to please read my thread >
(EMF) View topic - Physicians and other professions ignoring the Cult Issue.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2569
You disagree with my view and this is absolutely fine with me.
This is a debate forum so all EMF members are welcome to contribute...
My time is limited to fully reply today..I will share this much..
Yes of course (most) professionals care about their work and the impact they have on humanity.

Perhaps I should have made it clearer..... I was referring to the Cult issue here >Worldwide< , and particular JZ Knight / RSE.
I will standby what has been my experience first hand with Physicians and other professions regarding JZ Knight and RSE.
it has cost me and other cult survivors dearly.
I will post direct examples ASAP to support my opinion and experience and to open up the debate for others.

Can you or anyone recommend some of these professionals on EMF?
Particularly professionals in WA State who are not concerned to put their names on the line to speak out against JZ Knights help RSE survivors?
I will be very happy to contact them directy.
In my opinion....RSE is a rape of the soul.
As for physical rape? This has also taken place at RSE in the arena!
to a very close friend by an RSE staffer, who did not seek help because she believed she created that reality.
>
"people in a cult have a choice. If not everyone that's posted on EMF would still be there? They DO have a choice

Is this really your opinion? Are your referring to children in cults also?
I disagree and will also debate this issue.... but perhaps on a new thread titled "Do people in a cult have a choice?"
i am not on this board to debate opinion
Sure, no requirement to join in any EMF debate. I welcome yours and others input all the same... :idea:

David
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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:41 am

I couldn't get to the post because i had to circumvent system.

The children do not have a choice. I wasn't referring to children. The adults do have a choice.

As far as CPS not doing anything? It isn't just RSE. I know of unimaginable situations where CPS has "investigated" and not removed children. As well as removing children for a ridiculous reason.

We have the appearance of a "system" that works. It doesn't because "isn't my job".

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:47 am

People in general are reluctant to get involved in things that require taking a stand. Across the board. In any given profession abuse and neglect is ignored. because people do not want to be sued or have to testify.

On the victimization of children? What about children in a household of smokers? Everyone knows the health hazard. Helpless babies breathing smoke? Is the answer to pass a law and remove the children? And put them where? I'm sure you know "foster care" is ......!

So, start passing more laws where gov decides how to raise a child, what is/isn't abuse and where's the line? Preservatives in food is child abuse? MacDonalds? Potato chips? Candy?

How about children of "professionals" that rarely see their busy parents?

Despite my unpopular position the adult customers of RSE DO have a choice. I believe there's something in all of us-gut feeling. That sets off an alarm when something isn't "right". It's when it is not adhered to that .....we later wish we had listened to it. And despite the tragedy of the broken lives-people that have been there decades and it's been their life? They made the choice. Does it mean they are not victims? No. Were they duped-yes. But they made they the choice.

I am not looking for an argument. I was there remember? I climbed over the wall to get out.

Family plays important role. To criticize someone for going to RSE is NOT productive. Listen, i know of religions that tell people to stay away from friends and family that don't "believe". "Leave em behind".

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:23 am

I couldn't get to the post because i had to circumvent system.
Wearing my Moderator Hat again :-)
In the interest of making sure EMF is operating correctly and that our other posters do not have the same problems....
Can you explain what you had to circumnavigate? is this a problem on your computer, server or EMF?
Thanks...... :idea:
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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:34 am

The children do not have a choice. I wasn't referring to children. The adults do have a choice.
Thank you for clarifying :idea:
On the victimization of children? What about children in a household of smokers? Everyone knows the health hazard. Helpless babies breathing smoke? Is the answer to pass a law and remove the children? And put them where? I'm sure you know "foster care" is ......!
Its very important to keep on topic....
I assume you are referring to my thread titled "Physicians and other professions ignoring the Cult Issue"
This is not the same as your blanket statement "Misconception professionals don't care"
We have the appearance of a "system" that works. It doesn't because "isn't my job".
Can you clarify what you mean by this?

Thanks...
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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:56 am

Despite my unpopular position the adult customers of RSE DO have a choice.
Hi forever,
I am sure your opinion is shared by many....
I view RSE as a virus of the mind. For some it has proved deadly..much the same as the HIV virus.
Yes this is 'CHOICE' but bounded and gagged through the RSE deceptions and brainwashing.
Perhaps all those that get a computer virus had a choice? :-?
"The psychology of victims and the dynamics of victimhood have been largely ignored by scholars and clinicians".
"The blame-victim approach is not confined to the rights or recovery movement. It is also at the heart of the legal system's approach,[/"
> Psychology of Victimhood, Don't Blame the Victim, Article by Ofer Zur, Ph.D.
http://www.zurinstitute.com/victimhood.html
I have first hand of experience of so called "professionals that don't care" that has cost me and my family dearly... :sad:
To criticize someone for going to RSE is NOT productive.
Surely forever, some kind of context is needed with such a black and white statement?
We have an EMF page for RSE supporters to post and debate.
I believe honest criticism and debate respectfully exchanged is not only productive but saves lives and a mountain of needless suffering.
Its a difficult balance to find exposing/criticizing RSE.... wrought with blurred lines..
Case in point..
A hardcore RSE member once threaten my life because I 'criticized his great teacher"!
Yet it was he and his family I was trying to help... :sad:

David

Related:

Dr. Lalich “bounded choice” CultResearch.org
http://cultresearch.org/about/

“In a mind control environment, freedom of choice is the first thing one loses” (
Freedom of Mind
https://freedomofmind.com/Info/articles ... search.php
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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:21 am

I do not know you other than in relation to RSE. As a result i do not know what you have been exposed to. What your experience in life has been. If you have not dealt with the system or had conflict and adversity...my experience has been much different. So speaking from my experience i will sound cynical. When in fact it's like someone saying YOU are cynical about RSE? No-not given your experience. So give me that please in answering your question? Thank You.

We have a system here. All the various agencies come under the heading of "system". We have branch for everything that in APPEARANCE covers the bases. Everything from domestic violence, rape, hunger, homeless, crime, victims services, legal aid, NAACP, FBI, CIA, NSA, State Police, CPS, school guard crossings. We have WIC for pregnant women and their young. Head start for preschool. We have domestic violence shelters, homeless shelters to name a few. You name it-we have it.

The problem is "it isn't my job".

Meaning that we have the appearance of having the bases covered but the reality is much different. The system is not a preventative system. It's an after the fact. And even then it's hard to get anything done. People go through the motions-put in their time and get paid simply for being present. They do not get paid for results. Results are not important-except when apathy and laziness results in something heinous being uncovered that could have been prevented?

There are people that care within every profession. But to go against the grain? Lose their job?

Then there's liability. If it's a heavy hitter----if you're a cop you gonna give the mayor a speeding ticket? That doctor that spoke up in WA? Impressive. I have considered sending him a thank you card.

Do you think local police don't know about the rapes? Unless a cop is backed by the department think he/she is gonna pursue it? When ADULTS arrived in ER because of the field carnage what could doctors do? Call mental health? Okay-so gather up all the football players etc and make em get mental health care? Or race car drivers?

I understand the frustration David.

The other side of coin is this-you cannot control a victim. Depend on them to testify. So where does that leave the agencies that can help?

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:37 am

You said it David and that's the frustration. The victim has to Want help.

I witnessed someone i love be beaten into submission by her husband. I gave her and her kids a home-repeatedly. She always went back. You know why? Because she didn't want to lose her nice furniture.

So what do you do? Take the kids away? Seriously-what do you do? And don't you think that if you could drag all the people out of RSE they would head for the nearest "teacher" ( another cult) to fill the void?

It's agonizing to see what goes on and know that if you interfere the person you are trying to help will turn on you? Ask cops about domestic violence.

As awful as it is i am saying you have to respect those peoples choice. You got out? As have many others. Were you not brainwashed? And others on EMF?

Love them-pray for them. Be there for them when they come to you.

You have a daughter? How many parents watch their child (or adult) get into a bad relationship? Spend endless hours on phone talking to them. Helping them wade through BRAINWASHING. David, control is control. And there's brainwashing involved when control is the goal. It's all the same.

So, finally someone walks away from abusive husband/wife. And what do they do? Different face and name-same ole person. What about a doctor at ER that sees the same woman more than once with broken bones? What CAN the doctor do? What CAN police do? How is different with RSE?

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:49 am

David, i can't get on EMF by clicking on it. I don't know why. It says "not available". I am through a back door that if i can find....something to think about.

Return to victim topic. Love them. Give them an example of something different. Respectful/happy. Be kind and caring. Help them catch their bearings and strength.

"Victims" are beaten up and beaten down. It takes knowing that they have a way out.....a place to go.Someone that cares.

Victims are NOT respected. They are seen as weak. Go visit a domestic violence shelter some time. Talk to paramedics. Neighbors that hear the yelling and crying.

You think that RSE is different? People DO know. What can they do?

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:13 am

I am through a back door that if i can find....something to think about.
- Moderator comment -
This is the very first time I have heard of this problem.
What is the 'backdoor method' that is working for you?
Have you totally cleaned out the virus from your computer?
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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:22 am

Victims usually are blamed. You know why? To make it go away rather than address an issue.

I watched the LARSE on YouTube. Journey/wise?, 2007? And i was SHOCKED at the underhanded tactic and manipulation of RSE shared by wise? EMF member? (protecting names) She got out. She had a father pulling for her. The others?

It takes a very strong person to stand alone. I have thought of what you have gone through. David, try to think of people of having something within that will rise up when least expected and be their ticket out.

Brainwashing happens only because someone doesn't trust what's within them. Does not trust them self enough to listen to that gut feeling. That's why i have corrected telling someone NOT to trust their experience? Or what feeling to trust and which one not to trust? NO. That only serves to undermine. Those comments and that attitude turns me into an old leather shoe tongue stuck out.

I am not saying "it's their fault". I am not saying, "they are getting what they deserve". And anyone that would say or think such a thing should not have a place on EMF.

There's been many people i have gotten involved with-victims. I got burned BIG time. You know why? Because they used a sad sob story to get my attention and involvement. Simultaneously they were telling the person they came t me about-the same sob story-about me. In my life it's happened many times that i have been used by someone claiming "victim" who i later discovered was actually the tyrant.

If RSE shut down tomorrow what do think would happen to all the people? David, it's YOU they would hate.

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:26 am

David, i uninstalled abi. That's when messages began double tripping and all i got was blanks.

The back door? It's a manual. I am not sure how i got to it. It's a URL?

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:35 am

You think that RSE is different? People DO know. What can they do?
Forever,

Yes.. I do believe religious cults are 'different' and RSE especially so.
'People' do not 'know' nor understand the methods of cults (such as RSE) nor their recruitment methods and
abuses, Nor the needs and struggles of cult recovery victims.
The 'Blame the Victim" is rampant is our society and I am doing my utmost best to help educate the 'people' to get past this cult related stigma.
How can the 'people' know 'What can they do'? if fundamentally they do not understand cultic abuse nor their dangers?
EMF in part was created to educate 'people' to understand and learn what they do not know about RSE and JZ Knight.
But really this thread is about the 'professionals' who for the most part (as Joe mentioned)
will take an active roll in helping to expose a cult or aid cult victims only if the money is good..
And even then they may still blame their client for being so ignorant to have been suckered into a cult.
At this point its seems we both feel we are right,
so let's just agree to disagree.
I still intend to post some examples that support my view and experience and debate the issue regarding
my topic thread "Physicians and other professions ignoring the Cult Issue"

David
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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:44 am

David, i uninstalled abi. That's when messages began double tripping and all i got was blanks.
The back door? It's a manual. I am not sure how i got to it. It's a URL?
-Moderator comment -
I recommend you do a complete anti-virus-spyware sweep on your computer by a professional
David


Related;
What Causes Website Downtime, How It Manifests, and How You Can Prevent It - Alertra, Inc.
http://www.alertra.com/blog/2013/causes ... n-prevent/
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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:01 am

Perhaps the professionals need to be educated? Seriously, what can they do?

If someone is seen standing on a bridge ready to jump-suicide and be stopped they are taken into custody. mandatory 72 hr? To prevent them from harming their self. But cigarettes are legal? Where's the line David? Where's the EVEN application of "thou shall not harm yourself?"

Some victims are so muddled they have no idea what's happened to them. They're in a fog. Can't think or feel. While others blame everyone else and take NO responsibility for their circumstance/decisions.

There's nothing more wicked than messing with someones head.

I am asking you David, what do you think professionals can do?

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:09 am

I am asking you David, what do you think professionals can do?
Educate themselves and find the moral backbone to speak out publically against the likes of JZ Knight in their own neighbourhoods :idea:
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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:16 am

I agree with that entirely. But it has to come from within a profession. Like the doctor in WA? get him to push it within his community.

Listen. Society SUCKS in general when it comes to "victim". Unless you have $$$$$ to hire Gloria Allred.

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:30 am

But it has to come from within a profession.
Why wait?
What when the 'professions' have been subverted by greed and corruption?
or a society is 'failing'?
Destructive Cuts are a symptom of a much greater disease in society.
"“I noticed that these jihadists have little to do with the local culture — Arab or Muslim culture — they are children of our societies,” explained Henin.
“They speak our language, they have the same cultural references we do.
They watch the same movies as us, play the same video games our children play.
They are products of our culture, our world.”"

Former ISIS Hostage: Jihadists Enjoy Teletubbies, Game of Thrones - Breitbart
http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... f-thrones/
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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:40 am

There's no argument from me on that. It's what i am telling you. It has to start within the VICTIM. To get out. Help them self.

Did i not say that RSE isn't "the " problem but rather a symptom of our society? The problem goes MUCH deeper. It's what i have been trying to say?

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:02 am

I really didn't want to get into this because i don't think my opinion is taken seriously because it's different than majority.

David what drew people to RSE? "Love Yourself Into Life". Validation?

What has happened to us as a civilization/society that people do not go within for answers? Instead they look to others or another for an answer?

RSE represented itself as having/being an answer. Answer to WHAT? And that's "the" question that holds the answer on how to help. That gives insight into "the" problem.

What's missing within people that they are flocking to "cults"?

If people believed in them self would they be cult or abuse fodder?

Go to RSE where you can learn more-about yourself?

That right there is a wide open door big enough for an elephant. David, that's the same as someone saying tell me who i am? What kind of ....source would take on that responsibility? Uh Huh. The kind that makes $$$$$$$$$!!!!!!

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by joe sz » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:14 pm

All occult (hidden knowledge) groups tap your curiosity for those big W questions about the most important person in the world, "I":
Who am I?
Why am I here?
Where am I going?
What am I?

the White book was partly based on Love Yourself Into Life. That dumb title should be enough to dissuade anyone with an intelligent thought in their head.
Yes, I think David is correct. Cults are like a virus embedded in a tasty chocolate bar. The initial experience is attractive and often sweet. Then the infection begins.

Those big W questions are the proper realm of philosophy and to some extent psychology.

Naive and narcissistic folks try drugs or religious experience to circumvent the hard work it takes to be a philosopher.

Cults make you feel like you are doing hard work, when in fact you are scrubbing bathroom floors with a toothbrush. The floor is never clean enough for the leader.

JZ like L Ron Hubbard has laid out a Yellow Brick Road for you to follow, a YBR that keeps changing and goes in circles because the last thing JZ wants you to find is the actual Wizard behind the curtain.

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by joe sz » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:29 pm

forever,
I agree with you that the "victim" is also responsible with this proviso: To the extent that he or she can be responsible.

Children born or dragged into cults are true victims, as are the elderly and mentally unstable who are preyed on by unscrupulous religious leaders looking for the inheritance.

It is because people believe in themselves that they become cult fodder.
A responsible person says, "Wait a second...or a year. I do not know everything, I will not merely trust my experience; I will stop and think and I will reach outside of myself to find better answers. I will take time to ask some hard questions or go to someone who can help me find what those hard questions are."

Cult recruits say to themselves:
"I am not a stupid person and I do not do stupid things."

The above quote was posted at a cult recovery center called Unbound in Iowa where i used to take newly exited members of cults I had helped to choose out. That attitude of smart people is the key reason why so many people join cults.

Unbound operated from 1980 through 1990. Below is a paper by the former directors:
http://www.icsahome.com/articles/reinte ... rs-csj-7-1

More than a few ex-Ramtha members benefited greatly from their Unbound stay--usually 2- 3 weeks. Generally, their families or spouses paid for it.

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:51 pm

Hey Joe,

I always thought everyone knew more than me. Doubted myself. It's what makes people vulnerable. I was curious but scared. I didn't follow rules. Wouldn't give up my personal space-boundaries. Got locked out and kicked out.
RSE wasn't any fun.

You defined it well on being responsible. Children, elderly, mental...i agree.

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by seriously » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:21 pm

Cults make you feel like you are doing hard work, when in fact you are scrubbing bathroom floors with a toothbrush.
Joe, brilliant analogy. Sorry to be crass but you're polishing a turd over and over again. Ockham once said something along the lines that learning the intricacies of dumpster diving would be more beneficial than practicing the R$E disciplines. So true.

Choice: leaving R$E is a bounded choice. It's difficult even when you know it's complete and utter BS. There's a feeling of loss of family, community, friends. There's fear. What if I'll never reach my potential? How will I know about the days to come? etc.etc. There's a myriad of potential emotions and irrational fears and thoughts around leaving R$E or I imagine any cult. If you get a chance, youtube the Heaven's Gate interviews. It's shocking how twisted one's mind can become while in a cult. There was one gentleman that left Heaven's Gate and after the mass suicide was still unsure if he made the right decision. The hooks can be deep and and the recovery can take a long time. Circle back to the thread subject; it would be nice to have a listing of professional counselors that are familiar with cult recovery.

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:40 pm

Seriously-

What do mean "bounded choice"?

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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by Ockham » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:29 pm

To answer, "what is bounded choice?", I recommend this paper from Janja Lallich, 2004:

http://www.cultresearch.org/pdf/bc_in_csr.pdf

Lallich, p.7, writing about bounded choice in the Heaven's Gate cult:
Ti and Do were always clear about being in charge, although their leadership style was one that relied primarily on indirect methods—for example, explaining what they thought about something or what they were going to do, and then telling their followers that it was up to them to decide for themselves what they were going to do; yet, all the while it was quite clear what the preference was. That particular leadership tactic set up what might be called the illusion of choice, for, indeed, followers knew exactly what was expected of them if they wanted to remain students in this particular Class. Ironically, alongside the indirect leadership method were plenty of rules and regulations for practically everything, from the exact diameter of a breakfast pancake to the exact amount of toothpaste to put on a toothbrush. Errors and backsliding were handled through criticism sessions called “slippage meetings.” The process was not easy, and students clung together in their determination to succeed. Ridding themselves of any semblance of individuality was a main task, as was purging their minds of any tendency to question or to challenge. Systems of Influence
The cult indoctrination process and application of behavioral disciplines create a closed environment for the devotee in which it is only possible to engage in behavior and decision making that fall within the prescribed bounds of the cult leadership. The cult is a self contained intellectual ecosystem in which participation denies access to outside influence and reinforces further participation.

forever
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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by forever » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:56 pm

Thanks Ockham.

Not familiar with it.

The most confusing thing was that having read White book, listened to tapes years before going, the theme was individuality. But when i got to RSE it isn't what i saw-or heard. It seemed to me people mimicked Ramtha. Even the laugh. Have a conversation and it was, "Ramtha says...". What happened to individuality?

At the time everyone was buzzing with anticipation expecting Omega any moment. I heard Ramtha say, "it's coming Pony Express and the pony has a broken leg". !997

joe sz
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Re: Misconception professionals don't care

Unread post by joe sz » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:09 pm

quite right, forever.

No one is a born skeptic.
Skepticism is an art as well as science--not a science.
It takes hard work to be good at it and even then the best skeptic can be fooled.

Reaching out for better sources of information has nothing to do with not believing in yourself.

Unfortunately, we have to pay our dues before we can play the Blues!

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