christian science and famous devotees

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joe sz
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christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by joe sz » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:49 pm

celebrities have been notoriously vulnerable to fringe mysticisms. eg, look at Christian Science:
Further information: List of Christian Scientists (religious denomination)
Doris Day
Notable Scientists have included two former Directors of Central Intelligence, William H. Webster and Admiral Stansfield M. Turner, as well as Richard Nixon's chief of staff H. R. Haldeman and Chief Domestic Advisor John Ehrlichman.[293] Others include NASA astronaut Alan Shepard, and in England the viscountess Nancy Astor and naval officer Charles Lightoller, who survived the 1912 sinking of the Titanic.[294]

There used to be a concentration of Scientists in the film industry, including Joan Crawford, Carol Channing, Doris Day, Cecil B. DeMille, Horton Foote, George Hamilton, Mary Pickford, Mickey Rooney, Ginger Rogers, Jean Stapleton, and more recently Robert Duvall and Val Kilmer.[295]

Those raised within Christian Science include comedian Robin Williams, television host Ellen DeGeneres, jurist Helmuth James Graf von Moltke, military analyst Daniel Ellsberg, and actors Elizabeth Taylor, Henry Fonda, Audrey Hepburn and Anne Archer. Archer left Christian Science when her son, Tommy Davis, was a child; both became prominent in the Church of Scientology.[296]

Publishing Society[edit]

Further information: Christian Science Publishing Society

The Christian Science Publishing Society publishes several periodicals, including the Christian Science Monitor, winner of seven Pulitzer Prizes between 1950 and 2002. This had a daily circulation in 1970 of 220,000, which by 2008 had contracted to 52,000, and in 2009 it moved to a largely online presence with a weekly print run.[297] In the 1980s the church produced its own television programs, and in 1991 founded a 24-hour news channel, which closed with heavy losses after 13 months.[298]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science

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David McCarthy
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Re: christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by David McCarthy » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:14 am

Thanks Joe,

Wow.. its really alarming to read the list very intelligent and powerful people getting caught up in Christian Science.
A quick Google on 'CS Red flags' are concerns regarding hardcore members who died as a result of untreated diseases because they bought into the CS belief that sickness is only an illusion.
Jeez...how many Cults use that line?
From first hand experience at R$E, I understand how easily a sincere faith can slip down a deadly slope while singing 'its all Gods' will'... so be it :sad:

David

Related:
List of Christian Scientists (religious denomination) - Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch ... Scientists_
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

FreeNow
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Re: christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by FreeNow » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:57 am

Years ago I knew a old lady that was CS. She was having terrible toothaches and had to get all her teeth pulled cause they were rotting in her head. She insisted no pain killers. The dentists made her get a clearance from a doctor. She had it done but died not long after.
Keep the greater good at heart.

joe sz
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Re: christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by joe sz » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:19 am

I knew a successful column writer on religion who said she converted to CS after her 11 yr old son was "cured" by a CS practitioner of a high fever that appeared to be resistant to regular medicine. I was stunned, because she was quite well read and "worldly," that she would not grasp that young kids often snap out of high fevers suddenly. I told her that, and she merely brushed it off--she had been a believer for ten years by then. She was consulting me about Elizabeth C. Prophet. She had interviewed Prophet for a Mother's Day article for her column that was favorable to Prophet. She got a bunch of critical mail, some ridiculing her: "What are you going to do for Father's Day? Rev. Sung Yung Moon?"

so she wrote a corrective article on Prophet citing ex-member evidence. Prophet incorporated CS into her cult, claiming Mary Baker Eddy eventually "ascended" perhaps in her next incarnation, as I recall.

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David McCarthy
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Re: christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:36 am

On the subject of famous RSE devotees....(celebrities include Salma Hayek, Linda Evans and Shirley MacLaine.)
Judith's best friend :roll: Salma Hayek is cited in Wikipedia >
She studied at Ramtha's School of Enlightenment
Hopefully this infers that Salma has quit RSE and finally broken free of Judith's control and scam, I really hope so ???
Somehow, I cannot see Salma passively being treated like a doormat fueled by Judith's ('substance abuse') as dished out to Linda Evans and others, while spitting out racist and homophobic hate speech.
JZ/Ramtha Oct 26, 2012 - "All Mexicans are not worthy of conscious thought,"
Salma Hayek - Activism
Hayek's charitable work includes increasing awareness on violence against women and discrimination against immigrants.[55]
Salma Hayek often uses her resources and wonderful talent by supporting and protecting human rights, this is admirable.
But in joining the sheepish ranks of the collective silence at RSE to address and challenge Judith's abuses is deafening.
At the end of the day Salma's silence may very well be interpreted as consent.
The unchallenged abuse of the innocent leaves the vulnerability of all of us, especially women and children.
If only Salma Hayek's work as an activist and humanitarian extended to her own doorstep :sad:

David.

Related:
Salma Hayek - Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salma_Hayek

Salma Hayek: Charity Work & Causes - Look to the Stars
https://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/salma-hayek
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Lost in Space
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Re: christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by Lost in Space » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:24 am

I always thought that Christian Science was a sect of Christianity, like Quakers. Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses also eschew at least some aspects of conventional medical treatment. So do holistic health practitioners, herbalists, natural hygenists and many practitioners of Shamanism and Yoga. What I wonder is wether every faith that is not traditional and mainstream is to be labeled a cult? The falling off of readership of the Christian Science Monitor reminds me strongly of the fact that many Christian Churches are closing or amalgamating because of lack of membership. And I note that some natural remedies actually work, and that some traditional (so called primitive) medical practices were effective and less harmful than our current reliance on pharmaceuticals and drastic surgical interventions.

No, I do not belong to any of the groups I mentioned above, I just wonder how "cultish" it is to attempt to get well without ingesting often toxic chemicals.

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Re: christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by David McCarthy » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:44 am

Hi Lost in Space,
What I wonder is whether every faith that is not traditional and mainstream is to be labeled a cult?
A good point...
From my understanding, I recommend a closer investigation of the leaders behavior and personal life, be it a religious sect/organization/Corporation or Tupperware Group. Real scrutiny - critical observation or examination made public, is our best bet to blow away the smokescreens to protect ourselves and loved ones.
But truth can be a dangerous thing to bring to light when the lie is dressed in faith.
Much like discovering the City Fire Chief is an arsonist who burns down homes for thrills and self aggrandizement.
Here's' another clue > (if the 'Cult shoe' fits) < At its core control center sits a narcissistic megalomaniac with Sociopathic tendencies.
Perhaps even several culprits that have carved out a piece of our society and soul to prey upon.
R$E is a classic example :-?

David.

Related:
Cult leaders
"Captive Hearts, Captive Minds" by Madeleine Landau
http://www.anandainfo.com/cult_leaders.html

Psychopathy - Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

Lost in Space
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Re: christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by Lost in Space » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:26 pm

.
I suppose that is true David, but this thread is about those groups other than RSE - and looking at Christian Science in particular, I personally do not think it is any more of a cult than, say, the Catholic Church, about which there has been some debate here. They have simply tried (perhaps similar to RSE in a way) to encourage life style practices that promote wellness and to reconcile a supposed conflict between science and religion. Also, I believe that the Christian Science Monitor has or had a good take on the news of the day and was/is not filled with plugs for the Church or its leaders, unlike a certain Newsletter we may know of.

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Re: christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by David McCarthy » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:29 pm

Hi Lost In Space,
Thank you for your post,
They have simply tried (perhaps similar to RSE in a way) to encourage life style practices that promote wellness and to reconcile a supposed conflict between science and religion.
No doubt....and perhaps 'all in all' the CS church does good work for society.
However...Cults/deceptive groups always have a nice carrot on offer at the recruitment stage.
The carrots taste great and in 'reasonable' amounts are probably very good for you.
I am sure CS has many many wonderful and intelligent followers (such as RSE), but that does should not negate them nor blindside us to the responsibility and accountability of any organization/church from abusive and destructive practices 'the hallmark of a Cult', or a budding new one.
I will stretch it a little further by saying, Organizations do not morph into destructive Cults overnight (although with Judith I suspect she may have been a sociopathic narcissist from day one and learnt her R$E trade through experimentation in human manipulations and control (social engineering).
My point being, Its always prudent to look for hidden strings attached to those juicy carrots that seem to good to be true, and if so, who, or what, placed them on your pathway?
Its not 'Rocket Science' once you know (or care) where to look.
Rockets Scientist and famous celebrities are just as vulnerable to cult recruitment as the next man or woman.... :sad:
but this thread is about those groups other than RSE
True to a point LOS, but all is not black and white, which is the argument I think you are making here.
Joes title.. 'christian science and famous devotees' there is a connection to RSE, that Judith grooms and grandstands 'famous devotees' at RSE is 'in my opinion' on topic.
As is the hypocritical blindsided nature of many famous devotees of Cults and destructive groups.

David.

Related:

ex Christian Scientists Support
Emerging Gently
My emergence from Christian Science, and losing my religion.
https://emergegently.wordpress.com/tag/ ... cientists/

ExCS UK: The website for former Christian Scientists: 'Cult' pain: 'tip of the iceberg'
on-line CS support group
http://excs.blogspot.co.nz/2007/11/cult ... eberg.html

Rocket Scientist Wernher von Braun: History's most controversial figure? - Opinion - Al Jazeera English
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio ... 74374.html

Wernher von Braun a member of the Nazi party, and a member of the SS.
Central figure in the Nazis' rocket development program.
Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun
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joe sz
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Re: christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by joe sz » Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:30 pm

I recently reviewed a book, "These Cults" by Annie R Hale (1926) that covers many of the early healing cults as opposed to "regular medicine."
Hale was an apologist for alternative spirituality (i will post my review below)

CS started when Mary Baker was "cured" of severe back pain by Phineas Quimby who is often regarded as the father of New Thought Religions. Quimby actually used the phrase "Christian science" or science of Christ that Baker-Eddy essentially ripped off.

These Cults
Annie Riley Hale
(original) New York: National Health Foundation, 1926
Kissinger Publishing Rare Reprints
ISBN 9781162587400
Paperback, 257 pages
“These Cults” has a subtitle:
“An Analysis of the Foibles of Dr. Morris Fishbein’s “Medical Follies” and an Indictment of Medical Practice in General, with a Non-Partisan Presentation of the Case for Drugless Schools of Healing, Comprising Essays on Homeopathy, Osteopathy, Chiropractic, The Abrams Method, Vivisection, Physical Culture, Christian Science, Medical Publicity, The Cost of Hospitalization and State Medicine.”
The long subtitle says it all, mostly.
Annie R. Hale was a researcher-journalist active nearly a century ago in America. She had already published “Rooseveltean Fact and Fable” and “The Natural Way to Health.” “These Cults” is a polemic against what Hale calls the “regular” medicine lauded in Dr. Morris Fishbein’s 1924 book that criticizes “healing cults” and drugless alternatives to allopathic, “scientific” medicine. Hale emphasizes her neutrality, but the reader soon grasps that the author has a bias—in one passage (p 165) she calls orthodox medicine’s use of quinine to treat malaria as a “barbarous stupidity.”
As dated as this book is, ninety years later the same debate continues between “regular” and alternative medicine. Some things have changed: Despite no evidence-based proof of their foundations, Osteopathy and Chiropractic have been mainstreamed as major insurance companies will pay for both, The Abrams Method has been all but forgotten though re-disguised, the science of medicine has advanced far beyond what Hale could have imagined, and the language describing this debate has evolved considerably.
Cult was less a pejorative term back then. Today in the 21st Century, cult tends to refer to eccentric devotional activities that may use abusive mind control techniques. Hale and others like Fishbein related cult to healing methods and rituals outside of the allopathic system. This older definition of cult emphasized healing by means of magic or ritual which carries over to religious cults that “heal” or “cleanse” the soul of sin. There is a direct correlation of cult to a method of healing, especially in the Christina sense. Jesus in the Western tradition often “saved” by healing as well as by forgiving sin. Ancient Jewish culture viewed disease as “sin” or a deserved curse from God, thus the “unclean” like lepers were not permitted in the Holy Temple. Hale mentions nothing about acupuncture or yoga which had not yet had a large impact on alternative psycho-spiritual healing trends.
Hale was an apologist for the healing cults of her day while recognizing certain limitations and variations among drugless remedies in her narrative. Protestant Christianity had a strong and direct influence on the new cults like Christian Science, Homeopathy, and Chiropractic. The prejudice among ‘these cults’ was that God or Jesus could heal anything at will, and if that will could be tapped through Mesmerism, the “science” of Christ, or some other metaphysical means, so much the better; better in Hale’s opinion because “regular” medicine of her day was killing people with serums, killing animals cruelly and in her view needlessly through vivisection, and refusing to recognize the health benefits of “Physical Culture,” the forerunner of our modern health spas that emphasize massage, exercise, aromatherapies, diet, and a “holistic” approach to well-being.
Hale asks on page 63: “Can it be because of its past and present close association with the ‘black arts’ of necromancy and vivisection, that ‘scientific medicine’ is opposed to Deity?” She notes that Dr. Fishbein indicted Osteopathy, for example, because founder Andrew Still “felt himself the recipient of a divine revelation.” (63) Of course, Fishbein was not anti-God per se, but he was against superstition and lack of evidence when making healing claims.
Nevertheless, Hale had a point. Modern science in her day tended to discount any use of a God force, and despite the great 19th Century advances in the science of medicine, many remedies and diagnostic technologies were crude and dangerous by comparison to what we have today. We only have to look at the advances of electric shock therapy or ECT, today a relatively safe and effective treatment for extreme cases of depression and mania.
Hale does skew her data, but her points are made: Many people died unnecessarily when surgeries, serums or inoculations, and other invasive techniques could not account for dangerous side effects, improper sanitation, and immune deficiencies. Physicians just did not know better. Hale points out that more people died of influenza under the care of “regular” doctors than died of influenza under the care of “cult” doctors. She does not cite specific studies to show the statistics. On the other hand, Hale discounts the benefits of inoculation with “cow pus” to treat small pox (p 252) altogether—she had no way of knowing that small pox would be practically eradicated by the 1970s in countries like India by way of “regular” inoculation campaigns and not by way of mind cure cults or traditional Ayurvedic medicine.
Hale discusses “Psycho-Therapy or Mind Cure” of “Mesmer, Coué, and Mrs. Eddy” in Chapter IX. She names the “keynote to all mental and psychic therapy”—to the mental healing of Christian Science, the positive thinking aphorisms craze launched by Emile Coué, and the hypnotic approaches initiated by Anton Mesmer—in the words of “Hufeland, the great German philanthropist-physician”:
There is a region of the man which is never sick; to call out the reign of that region and make it supreme, is to make the sick man well. (Christoph Wilhelm Hufeland, 1762-1836, coined the term macrobiotic and treated Goethe, Schiller, and other notables in his day. He was a member of the Illuminati as a Freemason.—Wikipedia).
The Abrams Method or “Electronic Reactions of Abrams” (ERA) deserves mention because, like Radionics, Psychiana, the “I AM” Activity, and other “vibrational” healing movements after it, Albert Abrams, M.D. (1864-1924) believed that “radiation” or electrical frequencies emitted from his many patented devices like the oscilloclast could somehow effect frequencies in the human body and cure diseases. Abrams called his technique of tapping the spine Spondylotherapy as a way of both diagnosing and treating a wide array of diseases. Many chiropractors adopted Spondylotherapy. He claimed that he could heal clients remotely with his ERA devices Devicewatch.org has this to say:
“Abrams made millions leasing his devices and was considered by the American Medical Association to be the "dean of gadget quacks." He claimed:
• All parts of the body emit electrical impulses with different frequencies that vary with health and disease.
• Illnesses—as well as age, sex, religion, and location—could be diagnosed by "tuning in" on patient's blood or handwriting samples with one of his devices.
• Diseases could be treated by feeding proper vibrations into the body with another of his devices.” http://www.devicewatch.org/reports/radionics.shtml
Hale defends Abrams to a fault claiming that his diagnoses were truly scientific but misunderstood. Hale uses Abrams’ popularity and huge success as a measure of the validity of his devices and healing theories.
Hale berates regular medicine for its arrogant manipulation of the sick by treating illness with mandated if dangerous methods as well as charging exorbitant sums. Hale was critical of government setting standards in medicine, especially when alternative drugless “cults” were deemed as ineffective superstitions by government. Hale indicates that regular medicine was in cahoots with government, thus feeding a popular conspiracy theory among devotees of the healing cults.
The book has no index or reference guide. I do not expect many people to read this book, nor do I recommend it as a source of reliable information. My interest in reviewing it is more to point out the nature and history of the ongoing debate about cults. I had a good laugh now and then while reading this book, for example when Hale waxes righteously in her final argument: “The time has come (1923) when a majority of the lay world has pierced this pious disguise of the medical hierarchy; has learned also that much of its boasted “science” is about as scientific as the voodoo practices of an African witch doctor.”

Lost in Space
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Re: christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by Lost in Space » Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:23 am

Very interesting references, Joe and David.
Still, I don't think it is necessarily cultish to resort to herbal remedies or to try to ward off or treat illness with diet and life style changes, or to seek to avoid surgeries that pose serious risks and offer no or slim odds for improvement. And I don't blame some cancer sufferers for avoiding treatments that rob them of any quality of life for, arguably, only a few more months of it.
I don't think, either, that it is cultish to suggest that while Doctors are often decent honourable people who strive to make people well, pharmaceutical companies have a vested interest in only alleviating symptoms and in keeping people sick. That is not rocket science either.

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Re: christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:00 am

Thank you Joe...
More food for thought :idea:
Hi Lost in Space,
I agree with your above post.....:
That is not rocket science either.

It seems you are suggesting I am anti-alternative health care :-?
Can you point out in my posts where I have suggested such a thing? and I will set the record straight.
Destructive Cults/groups will use any number of 'carrots' to trap there prey. That was my point.
More often than not it is 'an alternative' to whatever is 'main stream' in society at the time.....
be it Faith, Health, Art, Politics or Science..... and 'more often than not" the leaders of these groups are well educated enough to appear as experts, genuine and humanistic.
JZK operates R$E this way and as far as I understand..... The Christian Science church uses the same box of tricks.
And its a damn shame the damage and destruction they do to what is genuine, wholesome and beautiful in the world.

David.

Related:

Derren Brown ~ Fear And Faith - Pt-1 Full - YouTube
The first part of a two-part event, Fear and Faith is a fascinating view into the "Placebo Effect" and how much a human brain can effect ones neurology through the power of belief.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfDlfhHVvTY

Derren Brown - Miracles for Sale - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bouAp1pGBwk
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

Lost in Space
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Re: christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by Lost in Space » Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:48 am

In the original post, the primary beef against the Church of Christian Science appeared to be that they encourage people to avoid traditional medical care. I was not stating anything about your particular position on the subject, David.
I simply question whether Christian Science is properly placed in the category of Destructive Manipulative Cults. And also wonder, since that was the main point of objection, whether all naturopathy or even all religions other than mainstream are to be tarred by that brush. Also, this segment of the forum is supposedly about groups 'other than RSE/JZ Knight', is that not so?
I will do some further research now and look up Christian Science on various sites. I will also explore some of the links provided by you and Joe.
I wonder, though, what that Nazi war criminal has to do with the question.

Lost in Space
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Re: christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by Lost in Space » Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:20 am

My favourite source, http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_sci.htm, has published a long paper on The Christian Science Church. This particular quote may put some concerns to rest.
Healing by faith:

There exists a chronic state of tension between the Church, its practitioners, and medical doctors over the substitution of Christian Science healing techniques for conventional medical treatments. However, this does not frequently escalate into conflict, as it often does between Jehovah Witness parents, their children and the courts. In instances where there would be a difference of opinion between Christian Science parents and medical authorities, the Church's policy is to strongly encourage parents to cooperate with those authorities. It is not known how frequently this advice is taken by individual members. The Church urges the reporting of communicable diseases, conforming with vaccination laws, and the provision of certified midwives or other medical attendants at childbirth as required by law.

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Re: christian science and famous devotees

Unread post by David McCarthy » Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:25 am

Hi Lost in Space,
Thanks for clarifying. :idea:
Also, this segment of the forum is supposedly about groups 'other than RSE/JZ Knight', is that not so?
Yes.. but not to negate the connection to RSE or other destructive cults, their methods, results.. and famous devotees.
So far this is proving to be an interesting thread topic....
but if a post veers too far off subject or requested....I may 'cut and paste' to a new EMF topic thread.
its the moderators call.
I wonder, though, what that Nazi war criminal has to do with the question.
What question?
My point is.....Just as there are Entertainment celebrities there are Scientist celebrities.
And Christian-Science overlaps many issues to explore.
The Nazi Party was a personality cult built around Hitler.
Its structures ( just as RSE) was to control every aspect of peoples Religious, Political, Social, Art and working lives.
The 'Master' race.
Wernher von Braun as a famous devotee of Hitler, was a NAZI scientist celebrity, his research used slave labour :sad: , yet even after the war he enjoyed great success and protection in the US, yet not ever has he shown remorse for supporting the Nazis and his fuer Hitler.

David.

Related:
Dark Side of the Moon - Wernher von Braun, the Third Reich, and the Space Race,' by Wayne Biddle - Review - NYTimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/books ... .html?_r=0
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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