Another doomsday cult story

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ponysong
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Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by ponysong » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:06 am

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/ ... ml?ref=rss

And there's a link on that page to a page about this CBC news documentary:
http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczon ... lypse2012/ . (DO a search for doomsday cult)

Lost in Space
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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by Lost in Space » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:17 am

Hi Ponysong:
A very interesting article! And the French organization that is investigating is the same one, seemingly, on the trail of Ramsters in France.
In all fairness, perhaps the zany guy who is writing those emails believes that he and his brethren will actually be "beamed up", and as such, has no intention for himself or others to commit suicide. I don't, personally, believe either that RSE followers would "drink the cool aid" or that that is what is being encouraged at the school. I think it's more about surviving, not matter what it costs you in the now, no matter what it brings for those hapless non members who may stand in your way.
Best regards to you,
LIS

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David McCarthy
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how many innocent people have died because of RSE?

Unread post by David McCarthy » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:43 am

Thank you for posting ponysong and LIS,
Lost in Space...
I don't, personally, believe either that RSE followers would "drink the cool aid" or that that is what is being encouraged at the school. I think it's more about surviving, not matter what it costs you in the now,
"Cult Kool-Aid" comes in many flavours... the RSE recipe has already poisoned and killed innocent lives... :cry:
I have know personally many RSE students some of whom were friends that refused conventional medical treatment in favor of JZK/Ramtha’s medical advice.
RSE students continue to remain sick and die because of they are brainwashed into believing the RSE sales pitch that all disease known to mankind is being cured at RSE.But....
In order for them to heal themselves using the RSE methods No doubt must remain in the RSE methods! thus to turn to conventional medicine and medical treatment was seen as a form of doubting themselves,RSE and "Ramtha" !! after all,
They created the disease right????
Many RSE customers have taken the 'RSE Kool-Aid cures' all the way to the grave, when they were dead and buried.....
JZ Knight/Ramtha would often announce they were resurrected in the 32nd Universe dancing with “Ramtha” :sad: :sad: :sad:

Is it possible RSE students could drink the "Cult Kool-Aid" on mass? Yes.
Just do the research and you will see the parallels with JZ Knight/RSE with other doomsday cults and mass suicides.

David.


YouTube - ‪Russian cult threatens mass suicide‬‏
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExZWwBSaQ-A
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

Lost in Space
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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by Lost in Space » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:21 am

Hi David
I am sorry to hear about your friends, I am not surprised on hearing about them that you are more inclined to believe that RSE is deadly.
I won't argue too much with your opinion, which I respect. I speculate that a) the difference between a suicide cult and a survival 'school' is that the intention of the suicide victims was in some way to leave this world for a better one, to reap rewards in the heareafter, whereas for the typical Ramtha follower it is the intention to outlast all of the horror and be the "meek" that inherit the earth. Even in the case of the seriously ill who eschew medical treatment because they think that if their will and belief are strong enough, they can overcome their physical problems, there is certainly no intention to die. In fact, talking to the couple of Ramsters I know, they would choose to continue to live on even if the world became such a hostile horrible place that most of us would find it a hell on earth, and prefer not to survive on such terms. Perhaps their beliefs lead them into error, may even lead to their demise, but it is not their collective goal to die. It is the opposite of being suicidal, to want to live at all costs.

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David McCarthy
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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by David McCarthy » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:03 am

Hi Lost in Space

You are making some valid points..however..
because they think that if their will and belief are strong enough, they can overcome their physical problems, there is certainly no intention to die.
Here is an example where an RSE student wanted to die!
Following several RSE student deaths and "JZK/Ramtha" claiming these student were now with 'Ramtha'...
one particular student got it in her head that after twenty years of dedication to RSE she was no closer to ‘RSE enlightenment’ nor 'Ramtha", she concluded that it was far easier to be closer to 'Ramtha' if she was dead! and thus shut herself in her home to starve herself to death, It was the intervention of her sons that saved her life but unfortunately the fallout from RSE involvement has now placed her under the care of the Washington State mental health authorities.
I knew this woman in the early nineties, she was a beautiful, kind and a bright light of a human being now reduced to a shell of a woman by the hands of JZ Knight/RSE.

David
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

Lost in Space
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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by Lost in Space » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:27 am

That is just heartbreaking, David. Good that her sons saved her. And wonder who will save my friends if their common sense completely deserts them. I once had a harrowing nightmare about one of my RSE friends; that he was in his UG, having got the word that it was time, and wouldn't come out even after it broke open and he saw that the world around him was untouched; even after several other Ramsters assured him that the timeline had changed and everything was fine. That is something I can see happening, I suppose.

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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by David McCarthy » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:52 am

Hi Lost in Space,
Interesting you shared that nightmare.
From what I understand....
The sons had to call in RSE staff to persuade their mother to open the door and get her to a hospital.
During my time in RSE I had a recurring nightmare of being in a car that was completely out of control hurtling down a hill with no brakes.

"They say' that if you find someone sleepwalking its best not to wake them up suddenly,
Perhaps there are exceptions....

David
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

freemysoul
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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by freemysoul » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:41 am

I have had a couple friends come to the school with disease, one with diabetes and the other chronic asthma. After becoming current and attending several events, they became convinced that c and e and focus would replace their medications, and they both stopped taking doctor prescribed meds. Both had very serious reactions to stopping their meds within a couple weeks, and the diabetic ended up losing several toes. It is JZ Knight who convinced them to "never pay a red cent for medical coverage, or medicine of any kind", as it was all a giant conspiracy the government was pulling on the masses. Just like she has convinced hundreds to forgo immunizations for themselves and their children, because the government was using these inoculations to poison the masses.
I know that if JZ can convince these friends of mine, who at one time were very forward thinking, independent people, to take such drastic, self destructive actions, she can convince anyone to do anything, including killing themselves. I do believe that it is JZ's intention to take out as many people as she can before or when she leaves this earth, and have heard numerous current students say things like, "If Ramtha told me to jump off a building, I wouldn't hesitate." or "If Ramtha said to kill myself, I would". There isn't a doubt in my mind, that JZ is any different than David Koresh, Jim Jones or Marshall Applewhite, and I see rse following the pattern of self destruction that they all did. There are more people than ever staying for longer times at the ranch and JZ has set up numerous RV's on the property to accommodate even more of them for longer periods of time.
Knowing many blue college students personally that are current right now, I guarantee you that they would do whatever Ramtha told them, including, as sad and unbelievable as it may sound, KILLING THEMSELVES.

Kensho
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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by Kensho » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:48 pm

RE: suicide & RSE...

In 2008 while I was still hooked into RSE, an RSE friend called me with the news that he was about to take his own life. It did not take long to determine that he was quite serious and was not just reaching out for help. Even though my own reasoning abilities were quite befuddled at that time, I remember thinking that he was relying upon confused reasoning to back up the choice.

This person had spent several years in the 'school' and honestly believed that he was a complete failure because his life was falling apart. Despite the fact that he had spent the better part of two years faithfully doing hours of C&E along with other disciplines to manifest sovereignty and wealth, he thoroughly blamed a lack of focus for the financial bankruptcy he was in the midst of. When I attempted to bring his attention to the downswing of the economy going on at that time, it was brushed aside as something that would not be affecting his reality, had his focus had not been corrupted with doubt.

In the end he had come to the conclusion that it would be better to face the Ram on another plane because he could not face him in this one due to shame. He also said that he had a lot of fear of being scolded by (the character) Ramtha in front of everyone for his failure, and that he just couldn't bring himself to attend another event because he was convinced that is what awaited him. Not that he could afford to attend an event at that point anyway because by then receivers had closed his once successful business, cancelled his credit and seized what ever was left in his bank account. He had turned to his own children to take him in and they had obliged.

As he put it, the timing to put an end to his 'miserable life' was good right then because he had nothing left to live for...and certainly nothing that would need to be dealt with by anyone after he was gone. He had lost his house, his business so he was also unemployed, and he had no UG or provisions set aside. Thus he reasoned that he also had no future because the Ram had said at a previous event that there was not much time left to prepare for TDTC and that those who hadn't gotten their preparations taken care of by the end of that year were going to die. My friend said that he believed that Ramtha was speaking directly to him about that during that event and went on to say that he was exhausted and just didn't have the energy or will that would be required to garner the resources to do it by going mass to mass. He said that he had put everything he had into the disciplines only to have it not manifest in his life; so his life was essentially over with.

Would this person have followed instructions coming from the character Ramtha if it meant taking his life before things began to bottom out and he had became openly suicidal? Yes, I think so; because my friend, just like many others including myself never saw much beyond doing whatever Ramtha said and that included doing disciplines despite what had been described as mundane difficulties. We were told that doing disciplines would deliver it all; and my friend seemingly had been so convinced that if he just did his disciplines as instructed, that everything that he desired would manifest.

He certainly didn't see that the time and money he spent on disciplines and RSE events might be contributing to his financial and business collapse while it was happening or that what he was attempting to manifest (sovereignty, UG &/or wealth to get it), were objects of desire created by RSE in the first place. In essence he may have unwittingly committed financial suicide by following those instructions.
In the end, my friend chose life over mere survival or suicide.

So what if RSE creates another sort of object of desire for its followers; perhaps one that includes going beyond the mundane life altogether? What if followers are led to believe that consuming something (sea water, alcohol, resveratrol, coral calcium, 5 hour energy drinks) or doing something (fasting, being blindfolded, and sitting/meditating for days on end) will allow them to transcend/ascend, so that they can create or adjust a reality and then return to experience it? The groundwork for this scenario can be found in the Plane of Bliss series of CD's. Would followers of RSE perceive it as suicide or as intentionally creating a reality? I suppose it depends on how it is presented, but I have no doubt that there would be some takers either way; especially if the directive came from the character Ramtha.

With love, Kensho
"Don't let any person bring you so low as to hate them."
Booker T. Washington


joe sz
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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by joe sz » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:40 pm

ex
I watched that video you posted---good one.
Then I clicked on this one of R/JZ teaching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOIgQcVl ... re=related

:lol: truly a trance inducing style or delivery---like a sunday bible preacher with a "serious" homily.....they teach this stuff in Bible schools for wannabe preachers----pace, emotion, hand gestures, stagecraft ----simple simple points made over and over---then pass the hat$$$$

Also noted that "R" keeps brushing hair back like a lady..I liked the act better in old days when Ramtha stroked a beard...

Marie
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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by Marie » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:46 pm

My mother was always a health nut... When I was a small, which was a long time ago, she used to make us eat wheat germ, take cod liver oil, never had fried foods and limited junk food as she could with two little begging children...:-)... Now I find boxes of Twinkies in the house because judy knight says they're good for you?

Would my mother and sister drink or eat something that would cause death upon the suggestion of judy knight? Absolutely.

Whether or not knight will devolve psychologically into this pattern is the unknown. At this point she fits the profile of a sociopathic narcissistic cult leader and books have been written about their de-volution and how they "get to that place," but speculation is all it is at this point about knight. The question in my mind is not so much would ramsters "drink" the kool aid, as that answer is probably as variable as all the folks involved. But rather, would knight ask them to.
"That's me in the corner -- losing my religion" -- REM

joe sz
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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by joe sz » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:05 am

Marie,
Most of the "suicide" cults in recent hstory [past 100 years] actually practiced or rehearsed for it. At least the leaders knew what to do---Koresh apparently ordered the place to be torched by his top men when he knew it was "over". Jim Jones had 'kool-aid' sessions many times over years before the real event...btw, it was not Kool Aid, but another cheaper brand of colored juice powder and water. It was like everyone got to calling tissue paper Kleenex ;-)

Heaven's Gate and Solar Temple folks rehearsed their requiem ritual also.

So far, i know of no mass "rehearsals" in JZland.
Frankly, I believe she is frightened as hell of dying. It's the lingering Christian fundamentalist rebel inside of her....why would she have ponderd so deeply on how to rid herself of the "death hormone" :?:

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David McCarthy
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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by David McCarthy » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:02 am

So far, i know of no mass "rehearsals" in JZland.
Hopefully you are right Joe...
I hope that JZK/R will fade out much like Elizabeth Clare Prophets demise.
What has been “rehearsed” many times at RSE is the “head for your bunker” orders that the majority students follow with zeal.
The frightening practices of physical and mental abuse during RSE events with students following “Ramtha's’ orders....
including standing by and doing nothing while JZK/R in a druken stupor physically attacks other students… plays itself out behind closed doors.
Anyone that has no respect for the lives of others,Men, Women and children ultimately has no respect for their own life.
I believe that that someone of JZ Knights mental capacity when faced with her own demise and ultimate death will take down with her as many lives as possible.
The other danger that is often overlooked are the RSE inner circle staff member who may be just as dangerous as JZK/R....

David.

Elizabeth Prophet, 70, Church Founder, Is Dead - Obituary (Obit) - NYTimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/17/us/17prophet.html
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

ex
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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by ex » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:25 am

when joe responded i had the thought: that jz is not the real danger. i dismissed this spontaneous thought as being to constructed. but with davids input i got my thoughts better lined up. yes the real danger comes from fanatic followers. yes they will carry out jzs orders. but they will be the acting party.

Indigo
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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by Indigo » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:48 pm

David and Ex:

A frightening thought occurred to me as I read both your posts, all JZ has to do is send everyone to their bunkers when she is ready to flee Yelm and start her new life, sans the Ramtha idenity. No one will come out until whatever the "signal" was to be is given, so she is home free, while people rot in their UGs, buried alive, doing disciplines on faith. Oh, how I hope this is wrong.

Indigo

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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by joe sz » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:32 pm

all the above is possible as there is a level of unpredicabilty in someone as imbalanced and calculating as JZ. Alcohol alone without all the other "pills" is disinhibiting----any one in a fit of rage can take a gun while half-drunk and cause considerbale damage to others and self.

My skeptical mind tells me that mass suicide is not easy to pull off---there is always indications of training through ritual---9/11 hijackers, kamikazi pilot syndrome, etc.

The closest cult leader to JZ's style was Fred Rama Lenz who ended in an apparent ritual suicide after ingesting dozens of 'valium' and drowning. he was with a former model, devotee at the time--she took a lethal dose too but survived. he also gave his Scottie dogs lethal doses but they survived. Lenz was not well the last years of his life, got very thin and may have had a terminal illness. he used uppers and downers all his cult career, may been been on cocaine, but def did LSD a lot. I knew the cult well and exit counseled at least 20 people out of it including 5 of his mistresses [intimate details of backstage reality there :roll: .
the following has host of errors, probably because his left-behind devotees keep tampering with the wiki-facts and who yet want to "sell" the narcissistic dolt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Lenz
Lenz died on April 12, 1998. He drowned at his estate on Conscience Bay in Old Field, New York after taking a massive drug overdose. Reports differ on whether Lenz took phenobarbital[31] or 80–150 Valium tablets.[49] With him at the time of his death was 33-year-old model and devoted follower Brinn Lacey who, according the police report, was covered with bruises. Lacey contends that his death was part of a suicide pact.[50] Three terriers owned by Lenz were also found at the scene, drugged with phenobarbital.[24][51] According to Psychology Today, police found his body dressed in a suit and tie, with a dog collar around his neck.[51]
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=11

Lenz taught that his Scottie dog Vayu [Hindu god of wind] was his "most advanced student" and that they had been together in many past incarnations. he was yet in mourning many years after Vayu died, as evidenced by him wearing Vayu's collar at time of death....

two small sects still promote "Rama" Lenz as their enlightened teacher since he died in 1998...

joe sz
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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by joe sz » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:48 pm

btw, Lenz would rant and rage at his students often for hours at their monthly meetings, and they would sit there and take it. he lived alone save for a girlfriend or two at any time, and avoided personal contact with "students" as much as he could....he had to be "staged" in some way to be with them.
almost all members were in the computer programming field at his "suggestion" and almost all lived a paranoid, quasi-zen buddhist style, totally avoiding family, most living like pauapers with few belongings and all sending huge percentages of their income to Lenz. he was not so much a doomsday preacher like JZ but he fell easily into the Gnostic trap of an elitist radical dualism dividing people into those who would "steal" your "energy" and those tiny few enlightened ones [some of his devotees] who would not.

seriously
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Re: Another doomsday cult story

Unread post by seriously » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:10 pm

I've always had the suicide thought in the back of my head and I've discussed it briefly with my family members still in RSE. They're definitely fanatical and have blinders to reality on but I don't think they'd go that far nor do I think JZ would go that far. I think she likes the money and adoration but I just don't have the gut feeling it would go to that level. The followers are definitely brainwashed but they don't live there full time and aren't immersed in the "teachings" and culture 100% of the time.

The time I spoke briefly with my relatives about it, I did tell them I would never forgive them if they went to that extreme. Of course, they looked at me like I was crazy when I brought it up. They also think it's crazy when people refer to RSE as a cult.

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