unbound

If you are new to this forum and are looking for information that is particularly helpful and relevant to those who have recently left RSE and are starting their recovery process, this is a good place to start.
Kensho
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unbound

Unread post by Kensho » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:04 am

Even with so many "logs" by this fire, thank you for having a seemingly unlimited supply to pull one up a sit a while. I've been warming one since the fall of 2008; listening, reading, contemplating and truly meditating (not blowing my brains out in that particular discipline). If it were not for this forum I might still be attending...and still be in denial of secretly questioning everything.

What a strange and yes, somewhat enlightening experience the last few years has been. Going in I thought the experience would be an adventure in consciousness and it took three years to realize that it was actually an adventure in un-consciousness. Granted, I did learn things about my own human nature which I other wise may not have as well as some aspects of mind that I'm still puzzled by. Similarly there were others who demonstrated some aspects of human nature which I was only aware of but had not had the pleasure/displeasure of experiencing. All those lessons I happily will retain.

So what does one do when they have graduated from the University of Duh?
I'm sifting through some of the "science" and am creating quite a compost pile in my mind as most of the rest gets deposited there. Perhaps in time it will feed something more than mind weeds. "R" is for recycling where I live so I considered hanging on to the hat because it was a "gift" (smile) but it caps off the pile rather nicely so there it sits.

There wasn't a shortage of red flags throughout my years at the school and many suspicions and points of inconsistancy were confirmed once I found my way here. When I was a new student I chose to navigate around them through a warped justification; but within the first year I was simply able to ignore them through "what is termed" (LOL) delusion. I only hope that in doing so that I didn't harm another person that I have not since recognized and at least begun to reconcile with. Mostly this involves informing the two people that I invited and escorted to the school to look elsewhere for "enlightenment". Thankfully they did not attend beyond a beginning retreat, but just the same it is important that I share what I have learned since leaving the school. We are still friends and even more so.

I maintain friendships with both current and non current students, the latter of which are just starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel as something other than the train. Bit by bit we talk about the red flags and supplement that with engaging life rather than the guilt they have over not doing their disciplines. Thankfully they too did not go to the school without prior spiritual knowledge or experiences, so seeing things for what they are is quite acceptable all round. They aren't quite to the point of laughing about it yet, (I've gone into hysterical laughter about some of it in private), but we do get the odd collective chuckle going. Mostly we are all concerned for those who remain aligned with the school and its doctrine...including the teachers and JZ Knight (they may need psychiatric help).

I look forward to further communications with you through this forum and thank you for all that you have shared. Your compassion and understanding is very much appreciated.

Another Dimension60
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Unread post by Another Dimension60 » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:34 am

Thank you for your post "unbound" - you expressed yourself/experience well. It is heartening also to know that this website is fulfilling its mission to enable people to leave/recover from jz's land of wanton rape. I also appreciate your recognition that the who that we are when entering jz's delusion is significant. And I appreciate that you are able to chuckle at the absurdities and value the gifts gained from your experience. The next step will make itself clear to you.
Sharing some of your red flags may be helpful to others.

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:51 am

Of course I can share some of those. I hope that it will help others to make a more infomed choice with respect to what they choose to participate in...while they still have a choice. I will collect my thoughts on what I could not ignore and post them on the appropriate thread.
It is my hope that sharing some of my red flags may be helpful to others, but in contemplating them I know that it will also help me to perceive them with greater objectivity.
Thanks for pointing out one of the possible next steps.

Whatchamacallit
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:30 am

Welcome, unbound.

Glad that you've found your way here and it has been of some help. As AD60 already said, if you are willing to share some of your story, it may help you to do so, and it will surely help readers.


Congratulations on being ... unbound !

Tree
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Unread post by Tree » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:55 am

Dear unbound,

I was moved by your post.
It took me a bit to collect some thoughts to reply.

You articulated a complex process very succinctly.
It is to a tribute to your character to have your humor remain intact. I found humor to be important in
recovering from such a group.

I was most moved by your personal responsibility you took by notifying those that you introduced to the group
to be warned and given some correct information for them to make a better choice as well. I found this
aspect to be particularly honorable, as honor while in RSE does not equate to the same honor held
outside the group.

Thank you for taking the time and energy to post your thoughts.
I am confident it will assist some fence riders or even some people who have a modicum of
doubts or confusion about discrepancies about the organization.

Welcome.

ex
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Unread post by ex » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:53 pm

thanks.good to hear from people getting out sound.also good to hear that people dont go longer than one beginner[they get counted as current in jzs world so they r not a real sucsess][quote] I found this
aspect to be particularly honorable, as honor while in RSE does not equate to the same honor held
outside the group.
[/quote]i just deal with this aspect.unbelievable how masters make up storyies to just not pay your work.sorry to put this in here.good luck unbound.

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G2G
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Unread post by G2G » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:33 pm

Unbound - thank you so much for your extremely articulate and succint post which sums it all up. One thing about RSE recently entered my mind from nowhere (since I wasn't thinking about RSE at all I was surprised) :idea: . When we attend the somewhat "happy-go-lucky-beginners" event, we are instructed to "not question, "just for these days." Okay, simple enough. However, the end comes rolling around, and before you know it, you're being given instructions on what to do when "going home." Hey! They only asked to "suspend belief" for a few days! That doesn't translate into forever. So what happened? The word "doubt" was imprinted, so we dared not to doubt? We dared not go back to our normal, analyzing selves? That's what I believe occurs in some cases. jmo..... I am very grateful to see another "exit" from RSE. We are free, and yes, unbound!
:D :D :D
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972

California Dreamin'
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Unread post by California Dreamin' » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:54 pm

Unbound -

Welcome. What great way you phrased your processing of the red flags:

"When I was a new student I chose to navigate around them through a warped justification; but within the first year I was simply able to ignore them through "what is termed" (LOL) delusion."

Now, I look forward to reading all about those red flags. Your future posts about your experiences will help fuel this forum.

Thanks for your post.

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:26 pm

Thank you all for the support. It really does mean a lot. The first of the red falgs are posted but somehow the main course did not make it to the table. Must not have created my day correctly or something (LOL). I'll write it up again. Worth the experience.

Compassion
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Unbound

Unread post by Compassion » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:16 am

The 'core' of who you are sings such a magnificent melody that I felt embraced by the music of your Soul to put my finger-tips on the keyboard of my computer and start dancing with joy over the rainbow connection that you have released upon this website. Your courage is so clear and your Inner Truth speaks the Joy that we all recognize...to tell the truth. I can hear the whisle of your 'train of life' full of gifts moving towards its contribution of healing the planet.

Thank you.

COMPASSION

How old would you be if you didn't know how old you was?---SATCHEL PAIGE[/b]

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:21 am

"You can only see what you know."
That's one of those things that I learned at the school that I'll hold onto.

Thanks for your kind words and for your compassion. Both are warmly received.

Compassion
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"You can only see what you know"

Unread post by Compassion » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:47 am

I like that! Thank.....YOU.

Compassion

joe sz
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Into the Wild

Unread post by joe sz » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:07 pm

I get your point, but hmmmm...and what you do not know can kill you because you will not see it coming.

Just watched DVD Into the Wild, a true story [for those who have not seen it] of a young 'romantic' but troubled fellow who disappeared for 4 mo from his family in 1992 after graduatiing college. His goal was to "totally drop out" then challenge the wilderness but he was not well prepared. He ate a toxic plant that he mistook for something else. Moose hunters found him essentially starved to death in an abandoned bus in 'wild' Alaska.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_McCandless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Into_the_Wild

It helps to learn what other people know too so you can see better. The question is "what knowledge company do you keep?" And how well can you assess information and sensual input?

btw, I liked this film even if it stretches a few events in the young man's life.

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:13 am

Thanks Joe,
I agree that the unknown can lead one to all sorts of mysery, but so too can it lead to the opposite. Perhaps a greater issue is the acceptance that self-deception is a good thing. The skeptics dictionary has a really good over view on this topic, but at the school self-deception is just another discipline known as the neighbourhood walk.

Self-awareness is the thing that seems to initially reveal one's attempts at self-deception. Most people have a natural aversion to openly stating a blatant untruth. If one can get past that or even worse, be told/supported in the idea that such an aversion is somehow defeating a greater purpose, well...critical thinking is going to be shorted out is it not?

I have seen the DVD. Sad case of someone looking for pleasure/escape in the wrong place/wrong time. The wilds can be unforgiving for certain. I have experienced living in the backwoods, off the grid, self sufficient for a 10year+ stint. There were a lot of lessons to learn but being an academic, commmon sense told me not to consume things that I was not absolutely sure about. Having a few "in the know people" around to draw info from is wise and fortunate. I had that as well as a good library of books to research questionable things...not just foods. I still have "in the know people" and have access to the internet for articles/papers on subjects I may wish to look up, but sometimes there is simply a need to sit with one's situation as it is rather than chasing after a remedy. Perhaps time and contemplation will identify what requires a remedy and what the best remedy might be.

Similarly, in this situation I am asking for all who have been down this road to speak up and offer their wisdom. I recognixe and accept that they may perceive something familiar in what I am saying and know that they had similar experiences. They may know where a particular path leads; just like we can all agree that the path to RSe leads to a dead end.

One thing I have learned over the years is that the best counselors are those who recognize the need to be counselled themselves. I do have friends/associates who are in the field although exit counselling is not their areas of practice. I also have friends who are aligned with a religion that I was once ordained in but for now it seems that is the wrong place/time.
With your indulgence, for now this path seems the right place for me.

I sincerely thank you for pointing out some very valid things to consider as well as for the vast amount of information you have posted on this site.

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:56 am

The skeptic's dictionary can be found on Google.

joe sz
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Unread post by joe sz » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:29 pm

good point:
Perhaps a greater issue is the acceptance that self-deception is a good thing. The skeptics dictionary has a really good over view on this topic,
I refer to the Skeptics Dictionary often.

I mentioned this before but in the Brainwashing book by research neurologist Kathleen Taylor she has a chapter called The Traitor in Your Skull. Bottom line is that our brains can fool us in many ways. For one thing our memories are flawed mechanisms. Even great writers need editors. I know in my case, constant self-correction in every aspect of life is necessary for me to appear sane. I continue to want to believe that most of my immediate impressions are "flawless".

An old mind-trap lesson taught to newly exited members at a recovery place called "Unbound" (1980-1990) in Iowa City IA was a session about saying to oneself "I am not a stupid person and I do not do stupid things." That self mantra is one of the primary forces that keeps one going day to day in a cult situation. I know it did in my case. iow, I will know when to leave.... :roll:

The Unbound I mentioned is in this article about a case I worked on:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/srich ... moy13.html

Tree
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Unread post by Tree » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:56 pm

thanks for the article joe.
wow.

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:45 am

More valuable information to feed a hungry brain on (smile).

I agree that the brain can fool us and that perception can also be intentionally/unintentionally limited. In accepting the true aspects of the brain and mind more fully, it is easier to accept that even well educated and seemingly well adjusted people can fall prey to mind control tactics. EMO are you listening?

"I am not a stupid person and I do not do stupid things."

One of the things that kept me from running in the other direction from the school was the large number of "educated" people that I met there. Even when I suspected that there was something not quite right with the whole program, I just couldn't get my brain around the fact that there were people who had also been through university, seemed worldly and well travelled, yet had seemingly completely adopted the RSE take on reality.

One minute I'd be having a conversation that could just as well have taken place in the corporate world, the medical profession, the education system and the next minute I'd be having a conversation about a discarnate entity taking over a person's body...with the same person, without changing tone of voice. It was stated as fact, accepted as fact etc. How do you keep any level of discernment if you are then living in that sort of company and environment exclusively for a 10days or more?

I worry about those people now and for the people that they are communicating with in the outside world as professionals or as people of trust. This concern is stronger by the day, for I too had ample opportunity to spread some now accepted to be twisted ideas amongst those who may seek my services in trust. Perhaps the potential for embarrassment which was running in my head while I was a student kept me from advertising what I was in to in my "real" life. Glad for that one. Oh yeah.

Thanks Joe, Tree and others. You have all helped me to see things more clearly. Yesterday was one of the best days that I have had in a long while (smile). It was good to just be out in the world.

Compassion
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'more valuable information'

Unread post by Compassion » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:22 am

I posted on academics: books & videos. Check out Conscious....

The EnlightenMeFree 'EMF' Message Board ::
View topic - 'A Year of Living Consciously' by Gay Hendricks

http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... .php?t=713

Compassion
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CONTINUATION OF - "You can only see what you know."

Unread post by Compassion » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:15 pm

I have been subjectively contemplating and riding over these words. Anyone who see this give your ride feedback on how each recognizes when..

WHAT ONE SEES IS CONSISTENTLY AND CONSTANTLY CHANGING BY WHAT ONE KNOWS.

qUESTION: did RSE create a 'stuck in the swamp'?

Thank you

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:58 pm

Compassion,

Thanks for the link that you previously posted and also for the introspection. I apologize but I do not understand your question. Would you please be so kind as to rephrase it?

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:04 pm

Oh, as a second thought on You can only see what you know...Joe brought to light a very good point in this thread about not seeing things that could kill you.

I agree that our perceptions are always changing but how they change or in what direction we choose to look might not always be in our best interests over all. It helps to have others who have been down the road one is heading down advising us. If it is only their perception, it is certainly valid. A thousand perceptions of the same experience is greater than one, especially if that one is wearing blinders (literally or otherwise)

Compassion
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RePhrase of Question is a gOOd Request

Unread post by Compassion » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:26 am

The swamp is called 'fear'.

When one is struck in the swamp of fear like RSE creator(s), they will use projection to get others into the swamp. Being in a war-zone of projection would not give one much room for reflective growth or '...see what one knows' embracing time. In fact, no time to feel the feeling of the moment.


qUESTION: did RSE create a 'stuck in the swamp' for many?

Compassion

PS Here is another question: What comes first the thought or the feeling?

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:59 am

I would have to say yes, RSE uses fear as a control tactic.

Thought vs feeling; which comes first? That depends on one's perception; does one not mirror the other? Are they then not two aspects of the same whole and therefor indivisible?

Tree
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Unread post by Tree » Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:03 am

What comes first the thought or the feeling?

Good question.

I think the thought comes first then the brain sends the message to
the sensory part of the body. I think this takes a nano second longer to get to the parts of the body involved.

But, I think if people had harsh experiences let's say in their childhood,
the receptors in the brain are re-wired and less than optimal coping skills are introduced and programmed.
This is where a good counselor would be of utmost importance.
One can take whatever meds for the immediate interim,
but a good counselor and diligent practice on the client's part is the only hope to making
a full recovery and functioning person.

Compassion
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Good Question... Response

Unread post by Compassion » Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:32 pm

Tree,
You are an awesome 'think'er.

'...think the thought comes first then the.. brain sends the message to
the sensory part of the body. I think this takes a nano second longer to get to the parts of the body involved.'


Would there not be a 'feeling' stored there to meet the 'nano second'?

i.e., if someone asked you to put your finger on a 'hot' stove, how would you know whether to do it or not........would it be a 'feeling' in storage of SELF...or a thought projected from outside one's sELF by another person whether to touch the 'hot' stove?

For ME, if I 'track' a feeling to its origin, I don't get caught up in words of others to give me the interpretation of who I AM....my feeling takes that responsibilty. I was frozen for so long thinking I was protecting mySELF (which I was...called safety). However, when being in an environment of projection by others, that is the best action or the self-worth goes down the toilet. I AM defrosted now and 'feelings' are gOOD and FUN to track.

Furthermore, this website is an awesome and safe place for the thoughts and feelings to embrace each other through any griefing on this train-ride of life called freedom to FEEL and BE.

Thank you ALL...


PS David Viscott, M.D. who had a radio program (he did guest appearances, too) in LA created a safe environment for people and didn't ask for money. The experience and exchange of wisdom was free (minius the cost of a radio). Isn't that what we are here to do...ACKNOWLEDGE OURSELF AND OTHERS BY SHARING and CARING? (minius the cost of a computer..HA! HA!)

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David McCarthy
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When parasites invade the brain?.

Unread post by David McCarthy » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:29 pm

PS Here is another question: What comes first the thought or the feeling?
When we are hungry, what comes first... the thought or the feeling?.
Here's another "thought"..
what if that ?thought?... was not your own?

Insert sinister music here..

;-)

David.


The EnlightenMeFree 'EMF' Message Board :: View topic - When parasites invade the brain
http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... =5564#5564
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Unread post by journeythroughramthaland » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:39 pm

I think the feeling would come first. in the womb subject to the symphony and rhythm of sounds from the mothers body, during this time I would think there would be no wonderment, just an experience of feelings. later in life that has profound effects on us as we listen to rhythmic drumming, running water, etc could that be one of the factors that make it possible for those sounds and feelings to help bring us towards a less critical state?
"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."
-William Mizner

Tree
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Unread post by Tree » Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:21 pm

For ME, if I 'track' a feeling to its origin, I don't get caught up in words of others to give me the interpretation of who I AM....my feeling takes that responsibilty.

This is another pause for thought here.

I have been observing my dog alot lately because he is going blind due to complications of having contracted diabetes
in the last 2 months.
I have been watching to see if he "feels" anything as a result.

I know some insecurity has kicked in, so I do a few things to make him feel safer as result, and as a result, he is
not quite as insecure or fearful.
I have been observing him to see if he "feels" anything in general.

I know we are animals by nature, but this difference in our ability to process thoughts is quite interesting.
So....does the animal part of us respond first? If a dog is hungry, does he feel it?

This is all great food for thought - AHHAHAHAH! no pun intended!! :lol:

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Unread post by Tree » Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:25 pm

, if someone asked you to put your finger on a 'hot' stove, how would you know whether to do it or not..

I think that is stored under memory.
If you were an amnesiac, you would be prone to alot of finger burns!!

Compassion
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Good Boy, David

Unread post by Compassion » Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:44 pm

David McCarthy wrote:
PS Here is another question: What comes first the thought or the feeling?
When we are hungry, what comes first... the thought or the feeling?. Feelling is the answer. I understand that when we think the body is hungry - it is really thristy - DRINK H2O.
Here's another "thought"..
what if that ?thought?... was not your own? That would mean trouble in 'river city'. HA! HA! David

Insert sinister music here.. I couldn't play the music - where is the 'click' button??? HA!

;-)

David.


The EnlightenMeFree 'EMF' Message Board :: View topic - When parasites invade the brain
http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... =5564#5564

Compassion
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AWARENESS - 'thank you'

Unread post by Compassion » Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:57 pm

unbound wrote:"You can only see what you know."
That's one of those things that I learned at the school that I'll hold onto.

Thanks for your kind words and for your compassion. Both are warmly received.

After reading 'Transference' - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, I had 'need' to come back to say to UNBOUND a extra BIG 'thank you...THANK YOU'.

Compassion

Today IS A Good Day!

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Unread post by Kensho » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:45 pm

Hello all,
I'm crossing through a rough patch which presented about a month ago. It seems that there is no turning back now but at least the road is smoothing out in places so it has me inspired to slog onward.

I've just caught up on the many posts of the last month as for a time reading the sincere (and not so sincere) posts seemed to only be adding to my confusion. Forgive me but I couldn't think of any thing that would have been of benefit to add to what was already written. So it is even now it seems. When I come out on the other side of where I'm at perhaps there will be. Right now my perception is that I'm too self absorbed with contemplation, therapy and anything else I can think of to clear the path ahead. All that I do is describe the bit of journey in the hope that it might be of some help to another who finds them self in a similar space.

Here it is then in a nut shell.
I just don't know what to believe in any more. An adult friend of mine went back to his childhood home when he saw it up for sale and his words ring in my ears as I try to do the same thing emotionally. He said "You can drive around the block and enter the house but you can never go home again." It seems that is true in a sense...or at this point it seems so for me.

I had to get away for a while so I took a road trip and visited some friends at a monastery in the hope of finding some peace there. It was peaceful and I did have a really good talk with one individual who understood where I was coming from; he even clarified for me that to go back to the precept based life is not for me now. I have a strong aversion to it and he understood that. Just the same he offered some suggestions on meditations I might try. They have helped me to reason some things out.

I also visited a friend who is still very much dedicated to JZR and the teachings but came away with an empty feeling in my heart. I love that person but it didn't seem to be the time to go anywhere beyond the friendship on a personal level. We did not discuss the fact that I have left the school or my perception of what RSE is.

I also paid a visit to my family but beyond small talk there was nothing to be said. They have no idea of what I was really doing these past 4 years. All they knew was that I had become detached from every day life for some reason and that reason wasn't up for discussion then or now.

Each visit lasted only a day and I came home exhausted, empty and more confused as to where I was and where I was going.

If I could use an analogy, the story of Snow White comes to mind. I'm working through the persona's of the seven dwarfs with some fantastical hope that at some point I'll get to try on the persona of Happy and hold it. I'm already trundled over the delusion of having a magical frog show up and turn me into something I'm not. That is for me to do and just knowing that brings me closer to being Happy I suppose.

Its a stormy morning where I live, so both literally and emotionally it is once again time to bundle up, turn my collar to the "wind" and head on out into it.

Thanks for listening.

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Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:55 pm

hi unbound,


sounds like you are in a gray area of life - a transition of sorts. literally ... sorting.

i like what your friend had to say; that you can't go back home even if you do drive around the block a gazillion times. it's a memory we hold.

my daughter recently had my first grandchild. just a few minutes ago, as i was starting to read your post, she stopped by the house to pick up the stroller she forgot here last friday. as she is adjusting to being a mommy, i am mentally and emotionally reliving my memories of her being a newborn. she doesn't remember the time i spent with her as a newborn, of course, but it's forever etched in my memory like it was yesterday. it's bittersweet. time truly does march on.

it sounds like a similar thing that you are going through, though you took it to another level and physically revisited varying aspects of your past. it's no wonder you have a whole potpourri of emotions stirring inside of you !

give yourself some time to let it all settle.

i have posted about the "i don't know what to believe in anymore" phase, too. so have others. i certainly can't speak for what you will end up accepting as your belief/faith/whatever you want to call it. but, i will say this; eventually, peace will come. i've come to be comfortable with what i do NOT know. it's okay. abstract is okay. with rse, we thought we had all the answers. we didn't. it's not okay that we were sincerely searching, and were duped. but i would suggest that it is okay that we don't have all the answers. what we do have, and who we are now, matters. that is what is real and what we have control over; our personal life choices.

this might be something for you to think about; in the last year, watching my older kids, some married, starting their families, and remembering myself raising them (with hubby)...and the places we've lived...the time i spent with them while i struggled to study my way through university for ten years, traveling back and forth (uggggggg) to yelm for classes...i recall happy times, and also sad times. i just cannot get that time i lost, away from them, back. i don't think i will ever "recover" from that and why should i ?

perhaps it's not for us to "recover" from our cult experiences in any other way than we would a tragic death of a loved one, or challenge with a bad illness, accident recuperation, etc. loss of a friendship you cherished...etc. those are painful times in our lives ...do we ever forget ? i think not. i remember my father's death and always will. i remember losing a girl - friend of 30 years. i remember some good, some bad, rse experiences. the ultimate bad was realizing that to whatever degree, i was conned by a sociopath. i will never forget it. but time will fade the intensity of the realization.

in time, what's real now, takes front place (and has) in my life. rse was an experience. aside from each of our individual opinions about rse, what it was, what it is, what we wish it would be (shut down, in my opinion), it was an experience that will always be part of who we are. it's what we do with it NOW that matters.

you're in that process and are sorting it all out in your own way. while i don't know you, you sound to me like a basically balanced, hurt person who will pull themselves up from the bootstraps, get it together and move forward. it sounds like you're already heading in that direction. you mentioned therapy; that certainly has its place, too, if you find it helpful. i have a five year old adopted son who is in weekly therapy. i go with him because i am his mother and obviously play an integral role in affecting his childhood ! what that child has endured (a horrid abuse/neglect history for the first 3 years of his little life).

i am sharing this for several reasons. while i haven't posted about this before, i have an intensely jam-packed educational experience re: abuse of children. what i have learned in the last 3 years about the psychological state of children of such backgrounds, along with direct experience living with it, has been extremely intense. as i have shared with a few close friends, the parallels that are obvious to me, are the parallels between child abuse/neglect and the experience within a destructive cult.

some day i will write about it. i have started writings about it, but i'm not ready to pull it all together yet. i may move slowly, but i will follow through.

i have my own theories about cults, developing. i'll share this with you - and of course the readers - just as food for thought. n-o-t to elicit agreement, or to start a debate. if it is helpful to you, fine. if not, discard it.

with what i have been reading about "brainwashing" (or related term), and the conflicts within the ex-cult counseling/therapy field, and what i know to be true about child abuse/neglect and psychopathology, i am personally strongly leaning toward a theory of abuse as the main impact upon cult members, moreso than being brainwashed. i'm cynical about just how powerful "brainwashing" can be. yes, i do think it has a place, but as a carte blanche reason for retaining cult members; it's too simplistic in my view. i believe we were conned; and that includes forms of mental and emotional abuse, which held some of us for some of the time. it also explains why we DID have DOUBT. but we were too dang scared to LOOK AT IT. that's not the same as being brainwashed. not so that all people can be pigeonholed in that category.

but i digress. for you, for now, one day at a time. highly likely, as time goes on, you will sort all of this out in your mind with whatever supports you have in your life. in the meanwhile, if EMF is helpful to you, great. if you need to do the "read only" approach for a while, too. that's fine. it's about what you need for yourself so that one fine morn comes and not in rse-style, but UNBOUND style...merrily skipping along !

:P

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Unread post by Marie » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:14 pm

Hi unbound...Thanks for your post, I think it helps to sort things out when you write them down -- but sometimes it just depresses one further :roll: .. It's probably good to have someone you can confide in, like a therapist, as has been suggested on this board in other places... Someone who can help keep you grounded in reality and not inside your head too much -- we have a saying in AA -- "your own head is like a bad neighborhood, you don't want to go there without an escort!"... It sounds to me like you are going through the loss, the grief process of losing something dear to you... Like a relationship that you were once in love with and now has ended... It's a tough time... It just takes a while to "get through".. but you will... Just be kind to yourself and don't expect too much... Try to stay away from analyzing and figuring everything out... Know that most "normal' people won't understand and that this board is probably where you will find most of your comfort. Go see a funny movie when it all gets to be just too much.

Hope that helps.
"That's me in the corner -- losing my religion" -- REM

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Unread post by Kensho » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:08 pm

Thank you Whatcha and Marie,

Your insight has really provided a boost. It is really impossible for anyone who has not actually been through the RSE doctrines (or is at least familiar with them) to understand how some aspects of the experience remain bothersome even after exiting the school. That's where EMF truly serves all who choose to take that step; so thanks again to all who have posted. Just knowing that others have had similar experiences and reading about how they are coping is helpful.

I need to clarify my reference to therapy because I see that the assumption has been made that I have confided in and am seeing a counselor regarding RSE. Admittedly that was my initial intent but I ended up only being able to say that I had given my life over to a program of thought for three years (I consider it 4 years because the program is still running - arrrgh) and wanted some tools to wash the residue of it from my life. I also said that the specifics of the program were not on the table for discussion because my perception was that such discussion would only serve to fortify resentment, guilt and a whole host of other things that were not in alignment with moving forward. The concern was raised that there be some sort of support for those aspects and I did say that there was in fact such a discussion group that I could go to. THANK YOU EMF! When I meet with my counselor, our discussion centres around what steps I can take to move me closer to knowing what I want to fill my life with. The understanding is that I have essentially filled my life with RSE for three years and pretty much everything centred around that.

Marie, you were right on with respect to this being like the grief process, of loss etc. I see the similarities and also know now that RSE was a distraction from a process that was not completed following the death of my husband in 2005. Within a month of that I was at RSE and heard there that it was a good thing to turn away from the past, to block out all memory etc. I bought that idea hook, line and sinker because it was I wanted to hear (not necessarily what I needed to hear), and so the numbness that comes after such a loss simply faded to black. I say numbness rather than grief because I did not have that, nor did I expect to. I still believe that death is inevitable and that it is of the body and personality only. Still there is the process of restructuring one's life after a partner has left either by death or other means. That restructuring process was filled with RSE teachings and dedication to them. I exchanged a dedication to Buddhism and one teacher (my husband) for a dedication to RSE and another teacher (Ramtha). Whew...I was actually nauseous there for a second (LOL).

Part of my therapy process is to actually go visit what I hold in my mind with any attachment to RSE. That included those that I visited because it was those pptte that I chose to leave behind and separate myself from either when entering RSE or leaving it. I just needed to see how things looked from the perception that I have now.
Whatcha's perception that RSE is an experience...with good and bad memories is very true for me. It is all about how much of that still pervades the thought process and formulation of opinion. I am really cautious of building anything of a new life on shaky foundations so bit by bit I need to reconcile some opinions and attitudes that I formed under the cloud of RSE delusion. Again I agree that the RSE experience is more leaning toward abuse rather than brain washing. It seems like it is a collective of many things though; with the end result being reprogramming how one thinks.

That's what I'm working with now. DE-programing. Only those who have gone through the programing can understand when I say that even a simple thing like going for a walk is polluted with, "I have always been..." A conscious effort has to be made to stop that but the conscious effort then finishes the sentence, "...been free of RSE!" AAArrggh. Same goes for just sitting outside. How do you get that grid from showing up so you can just look at the sky? Can the wind just blow without the automatic connection to a thought about some mystical character...and then take you for a thought ride into analyzing what one had dedicated their life to?

Like I said its stormy here. Both inside and out...but spring is in the air and at least there is no fear of the wind.
Again thanks for listening.

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Abuse/Cults

Unread post by Compassion » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:10 pm

Whatchamacallit wrote:hi unbound,



with what i have been reading about "brainwashing" (or related term), and the conflicts within the ex-cult counseling/therapy field, and what i know to be true about child abuse/neglect and psychopathology, i am personally strongly leaning toward a theory of abuse as the main impact upon cult members, moreso than being brainwashed. i'm cynical about just how powerful "brainwashing" can be. yes, i do think it has a place, but as a carte blanche reason for retaining cult members; it's too simplistic in my view. i believe we were conned; and that includes forms of mental and emotional abuse, which held some of us for some of the time. it also explains why we DID have DOUBT. but we were too dang scared to LOOK AT IT. that's not the same as being brainwashed. not so that all people can be pigeonholed in that category.

:P
I am moved by the depth of awareness this whole thread is gifting internal growth for me. I look forward to your sharing more about 'theory of abuse'. This is gOOd. This is very GooD.
Thank You.

This Is A Good Day!
Compassion

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conned, tricked, cheated, brainwashed

Unread post by joe sz » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:32 pm

Unbound and others. This is a good thread for sorting out, iow, "naming" what happened.
Here are some thoughts to consider.

I have tended to look at the idea of cult influence as a kind of social disease that causes psychological symptoms. We can better treat and recover from a disease when we name it properly based on symptoms, lab reports, etc.

Brainwashing is only a label for a complex collection of influences usually from one source that envelopes and pervades the thought process, behaviors and emotions of a devotee or true believer.
It is an extension of simple social processes stimulated by someone who exudes confidence in a certain product or proposition, not unlike a salesman selling you a faulty product but yet making a lot of money. Sometimes we get left "holding the bag."

I recall a Pueblo Indian fellow who came to my portrait stand in Santa Fe, and he showed me a weaving from his grandmother. He said it was worth a lot more but needed $40. At the time I sensed this guy was conning me but I gave him the $40 thinking that maybe the small weaving was worth it. Later I discovered it was Mexican made and available in local tourist stores for $15. That was over 25 years ago just after I left the CUT cult--so one would think I'd know better. I still have that weaving and use it often as a pad to sit on in my car. A reminder that my romantic notion of "Indians" caused a kind of charismatic effect that undermined my common sense.

I think we "buy into" characters like Ramtha for the same reason except the sales force is more extensive, meaning it's not just JZ the Indian selling me her grandmother's blanket [Ramtha's presence and teaching], but it is a host of well-meaning folks testifying as to how utterly 'valuable' that blanket is. It is also our desire not only to have something of great value but to 'know' in our inner beings that we can recognize that value as if we were experts at the time we buy it.

My blanket is just a blanket but buying the 'blanket' promises of a JZ or Liz Prophet is a process that never ends, a school without graduation, save at death. So getting conned by an Indian is getting conned but buying an entire process that pervades your entire way of thought and life is what is commonly called brainwashing. Both are forms of abuse.

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Unread post by G2G » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:44 pm

Quote: "Can the wind just blow without the automatic connection to a thought about some mystical character...and then take you for a thought ride into analyzing what one had dedicated their life to? "

I consider myself "out" of RSE, and have read many of the obscure books JZ "borrowed" an coined as her teachings. One thing that still smacks me in the face, is the wind, literally. I live in a very cold climate and we've had tremendous gale-force winds with trees down and the power going off and on. I know there is no "ramtha lord of the wind." Yet when I experience this severe weather after just being in RSE for not quite a year, the thought of ramtha being the wind still goes through my mind. Of course I don't believe it. But the fact it still enters my mind is mind boggling to me! 8) 8) 8)
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972

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Unread post by Jay » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:58 pm

Joe says, "So getting conned by an Indian is getting conned but buying an entire process that pervades your entire way of thought and life is what is commonly called brainwashing. Both are forms of abuse."

I respectfully disagree with you, Joe.

In the legal world, once one has paid cash for a service or product, "abuse" is hard to prove. Rather we use the term "conned", or simply lying.

It is very, very difficult for a District Attorney to prove abuse when a person has paid cash for the opportunity.

A liar. To be sure. A con game. Undoubtedly. But abuse? Not relevant in a court of law.

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:13 pm

From what I understand about US federal law there is an offense titled "abuse of a position of trust or authority".

Welcome to EMF Jay,

David.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


2008 FEDERAL SENTENCING GUIDELINES MANUAL

CHAPTER 3 - PART B - ROLE IN THE OFFENSE



?3B1.3. Abuse of Position of Trust or Use of Special Skill



If the defendant abused a position of public or private trust, or used a special skill, in a manner that significantly facilitated the commission or concealment of the offense, increase by 2 levels. This adjustment may not be employed if an abuse of trust or skill is included in the base offense level or specific offense characteristic. If this adjustment is based upon an abuse of a position of trust, it may be employed in addition to an adjustment under ?3B1.1 (Aggravating Role); if this adjustment is based solely on the use of a special skill, it may not be employed in addition to an adjustment under ?3B1.1 (Aggravating Role).



Commentary



Application Notes:



1. Definition of "Public or Private Trust".?"Public or private trust" refers to a position of public or private trust characterized by professional or managerial discretion (i.e., substantial discretionary judgment that is ordinarily given considerable deference). Persons holding such positions ordinarily are subject to significantly less supervision than employees whose responsibilities are primarily non-discretionary in nature. For this adjustment to apply, the position of public or private trust must have contributed in some significant way to facilitating the commission or concealment of the offense (e.g., by making the detection of the offense or the defendant?s responsibility for the offense more difficult). This adjustment, for example, applies in the case of an embezzlement of a client?s funds by an attorney serving as a guardian, a bank executive?s fraudulent loan scheme, or the criminal sexual abuse of a patient by a physician under the guise of an examination. This adjustment does not apply in the case of an embezzlement or theft by an ordinary bank teller or hotel clerk because such positions are not characterized by the above-described factors.



2. Application of Adjustment in Certain Circumstances.?Notwithstanding Application Note 1, or any other provision of this guideline, an adjustment under this guideline shall apply to the following:



(A) An employee of the United States Postal Service who engages in the theft or destruction of undelivered United States mail.



(B) A defendant who exceeds or abuses the authority of his or her position in order to obtain unlawfully, or use without authority, any means of identification. "Means of identification" has the meaning given that term in 18 U.S.C. ? 1028(d)(7). The following are examples to which this subdivision would apply: (i) an employee of a state motor vehicle department who exceeds or abuses the authority of his or her position by knowingly issuing a driver?s license based on false, incomplete, or misleading information; (ii) a hospital orderly who exceeds or abuses the authority of his or her position by obtaining or misusing patient identification information from a patient chart; and (iii) a volunteer at a charitable organization who exceeds or abuses the authority of his or her position by obtaining or misusing identification information from a donor?s file.



3. This adjustment also applies in a case in which the defendant provides sufficient indicia to the victim that the defendant legitimately holds a position of private or public trust when, in fact, the defendant does not. For example, the adjustment applies in the case of a defendant who (A) perpetrates a financial fraud by leading an investor to believe the defendant is a legitimate investment broker; or (B) perpetrates a fraud by representing falsely to a patient or employer that the defendant is a licensed physician. In making the misrepresentation, the defendant assumes a position of trust, relative to the victim, that provides the defendant with the same opportunity to commit a difficult-to-detect crime that the defendant would have had if the position were held legitimately.



4. "Special skill" refers to a skill not possessed by members of the general public and usually requiring substantial education, training or licensing. Examples would include pilots, lawyers, doctors, accountants, chemists, and demolition experts.



5. The following additional illustrations of an abuse of a position of trust pertain to theft or embezzlement from employee pension or welfare benefit plans or labor unions:



(A) If the offense involved theft or embezzlement from an employee pension or welfare benefit plan and the defendant was a fiduciary of the benefit plan, an adjustment under this section for abuse of a position of trust will apply. "Fiduciary of the benefit plan" is defined in 29 U.S.C. ? 1002(21)(A) to mean a person who exercises any discretionary authority or control in respect to the management of such plan or exercises authority or control in respect to management or disposition of its assets, or who renders investment advice for a fee or other direct or indirect compensation with respect to any moneys or other property of such plan, or has any authority or responsibility to do so, or who has any discretionary authority or responsibility in the administration of such plan.



(B) If the offense involved theft or embezzlement from a labor union and the defendant was a union officer or occupied a position of trust in the union (as set forth in 29 U.S.C. ? 501(a)), an adjustment under this section for an abuse of a position of trust will apply.

Background: This adjustment applies to persons who abuse their positions of trust or their special skills to facilitate significantly the commission or concealment of a crime. The adjustment also applies to persons who provide sufficient indicia to the victim that they legitimately hold a position of public or private trust when, in fact, they do not. Such persons generally are viewed as more culpable.

2008 Federal Sentencing Guideline Manual - 3b1.3

http://www.ussc.gov/2008guid/3b1_3.htm
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Unread post by Jay » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:30 pm

Thank you, David.

I agree that the Federal Statues are in place for dealing with abuse crimes, as you so amply demonstrated, but I do not believe any of those laws would apply to JZ Knight for several reasons.

Number One would be that I'm not sure Federal jurisdiction would be applicable in this case. The prosecuting authority of federal crimes is the FBI, and the general "litmus" is interstate commission of the crime. Since JZ has her ranch in one particular location and conducts the majority of her business from that location, there would most likely be a lot of turf battles over who's law she is beholden to, the Feds or that State of Washington. Jurisdiction issues would most likely kill the case or water it down to insignificant levels.

Number Two is that the definition of "public or private trust" can be heavily debated, since JZ offers no written, verbal, or even implied "trust" to her clients. She simply charges for her show and people show up and pay for it. It really is that simple in legal terms.

This is probably the reason why she has never been seriously investigated or arraigned in a court of law.

It is also a simple fact that if the "ex-students" were that concerned, they'd merely file a class action lawsuit like most normal Americans do, and take the woman to court.

But no one does this.

The levels of co-dependency are rather astounding.

I hear that God helps those who help themselves, but it could be just a rumor.

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us vs ballard

Unread post by joe sz » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:07 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Ballard

This case regarding the I AM Activty that started in 1940 set the standard for all subsequent legal cases against "religions" or spiritual movements.
Jay is correct that the US courts cannot convict a cult leader of fraud no matter how bizarre the claims or beliefs unless there is sufficient, incontrovertible evidence that the leader is knowingly lying and intentionally using "undue influence" [a legal term] to manipulate others with beliefs they do not believe themselves or know to be false.

This is why so many attempts at class action against large cults [I know of 2 re TM & Scientology] have failed to get any traction.

Judge Jackson's ruling is still quoted today in these matters. I just saw an episode of Law and Order that referred to US vs Ballard.

The I AM leaders were convicted of fraud in a seperate trial wherein the jury could not consider the beliefs or religious claims. As a result the I AM group were forbidden to use the US mail to deliver their mail order products and lessons until 1954. The Supreme Court later in 1946 vacated the judgement due to an irregularity in jury selection, not on the merits of the case. It was never tried again.

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implied "trust"...!

Unread post by David McCarthy » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:52 pm

Thanks Joe..
since JZ offers no written, verbal, or even implied "trust" to her clients.
Jay,
you've got me digging here..
chuckle..

Given that we as "clients" as in... paying customers and students of RSE Inc..( a for profit corporation)
we were certainly "promised" the following "Goods and services" as advertised and sold by RSE Inc.......

The disciplines are designed in such a way that nothing is left to chance or belief.
They allow you to put to the test the statement that you create your own reality.

Here are just a few of the written examples of "implied trust" of the goods and services" offered by Judith.....
an RSE advertisement...
What You Will Learn
Students of Ramthas School of Enlightenment are taught the following fundamental concepts and disciplines of the Great Work:
Telepathy, and Sending-and-Receiving
Manifesting Something Out of Nothing
Discipline of Blue Body Healing
Ability to Physically Heal Yourself and Others
To learn to heal and rejuvenate your body through an ancient ritual.
This discipline has healed every conceivable disease and can extend your life beyond your genetic expectancy.
You will receive knowledge on how to do miraculous things with your mind.
The only requirement in the school is full participation. No one can fail this school; you can only quit.
"Ramtha's" teachings and their practical application in the form of disciplines designed by Ramtha. The curriculum of the school is referred to as the Great Work.
The only requirement in the school is full participation.
The bottom line is JZ Knight/RSE advertises and sells "extraordinary" goods and services that are non-existent ....
This is not only a terrible fraud.. but spiritual rape.

David.

************************************

Implied trust

Definition
: a trust arising by operation of law when the circumstances of a transaction imply the creation of a trust that is not expressly created by the parties and esp. when a trust is necessary to avoid an inequitable result or to prevent fraud

Implied trust Legal Definition - Lawyers.com
http://research.lawyers.com/glossary/implied-trust
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Unread post by Jay » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:15 am

David;

This is really good stuff, and you've got a helluva point, as far as I'm concerned. But I'd like to point out again that while I see definite signs of "confidence games" and outright false advertising going on, I don't see any legal case for abuse.

From what I have read, however, I find it absolutely astounding that people on this message board would witness first-hand multiple episodes of JZ Knight committing assault and battery on her own clients and not inform the authorities immediately, not to mention the other "crimes" that appear to go on in every single event.

I also understand that "Tree" was apparenlty raped by a JZ Knight staff member and never bothered to report it. That is simply irresponsible and gets zero sympathy from most juries.

If you really want JZ to cease and desist her fraud, then why aren't people acting when she DOES step over the legal line, and on more occassions that can be counted.

How in the world can you possibly help someone who won't lift a little finger to help themselves? All it would have ever taken is a simple phone call to the cops. That normal operation just can't be too much to ask.

This leads me to believe that something else is at play here. Why are "Ramsters" so reluctant to protect others or themselves? Or are they just misguided and paraniod about police officers?

It really makes a person wonder.

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Unread post by David McCarthy » Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:53 am

Jay,
on a new thread..Starting Your Recovery Process
Would you like to share a little background about yourself?.
How was your journey into, through, and out of RSE...!
What "red flags" did you encounter?

David.
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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Unread post by Kensho » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:59 pm

In my perception the word abuse these days seems to cover a lot of ground on many levels and the legal definition is just one of those. As it pertains to the RSE experience I see it as the following:

- The taking of one's trust by theft, stealth, trickery and deceit through any form of manipulation; be that through warping one's thinking through emotional, mental, spiritual control or through promises of physical health, super natural powers etc.
- The abuse of that trust, once obtained through empowering false information, false hopes, mental illness, delusion and further deepening mind control.
- The use of people so indoctrinated and convinced of a perverse "truth" for financial gain; with a disregard for the well being of those people.

IMO JZR did and does these things, knows she is doing it, encourages others to do it, encourages people to do it to themselves (the greatest form of abuse), and celebrates it being done. In my world that is abuse on enough levels and by enough definitions that to split hairs over whether the legal definition of one country has been attained is a mute point.

To Jay,
If I told you that I am a professor of law and went on to fortify that claim by giving something that you believe to be proof of that claim, I might win over some trust.
If I then told you about some little known points of law that you could use to further your own career (what ever that might be) while I secretly knew that the information I just gave you is false and could cause you problems later, I would be abusing your trust.
If I then encouraged you and others to go ahead with the belief that the law was on your side when I knew that it was incorrect, and celebrated you for taking that stance; while I sat safely behind the scenes well within the law and stole from you, I would be abusing you on many levels.

Could you sue me? Would you report me to the police? The bar association? In the end you would only find out that I am a con artist and a liar, not a lawyer or law professor and that I have little idea of the law as it is written. You would have nothing to stand on legally.
The question is, would you care if the legal definition of theft or abuse was applicable?

That's where I'm at. I don't define abuse in legal terms. My definition comes from an experience of pain that cuts like a knife the more I revisit it. When I contemplate how many more people will suffer similarly at the realization that Ramtha does not exist and that RSE is a scam perpetuated by a delusional and possibly sociopathic woman, I am at a loss as to how to help them. How does one bring forward the truth that the character that offers salvation and hope is actually only interested in financial gain and spreading the pain she has yet to reconcile in herself through inflicting it on others?

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Re: us vs ballard

Unread post by Whatchamacallit » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:27 am

joe sz wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Ballard

This case regarding the I AM Activty that started in 1940 set the standard for all subsequent legal cases against "religions" or spiritual movements.
Jay is correct that the US courts cannot convict a cult leader of fraud no matter how bizarre the claims or beliefs unless there is sufficient, incontrovertible evidence that the leader is knowingly lying and intentionally using "undue influence" [a legal term] to manipulate others with beliefs they do not believe themselves or know to be false.

This is why so many attempts at class action against large cults [I know of 2 re TM & Scientology] have failed to get any traction.

Judge Jackson's ruling is still quoted today in these matters. I just saw an episode of Law and Order that referred to US vs Ballard.

The I AM leaders were convicted of fraud in a seperate trial wherein the jury could not consider the beliefs or religious claims. As a result the I AM group were forbidden to use the US mail to deliver their mail order products and lessons until 1954. The Supreme Court later in 1946 vacated the judgement due to an irregularity in jury selection, not on the merits of the case. It was never tried again.
Thanks for posting this info about mail fraud, etc, Joe.
It's so helpful when people know the history and FACTS.

Refreshing ...

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Unread post by joe sz » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:30 am

watcha
modrators may wish to start a thread with this legal stuff.
If you wish to find legal opinion from a sociological persepective that would tend to "defend" new religious movements or cults, turn to this site below for starters. I met with Prof Richardson once many many years ago and have read his papers though we are ostensibly on different sides of this debate.
http://www.unr.edu/cla/soc/jtr.htm

the debate re brainwashing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Brain ... /Archive_2

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:56 am

I apologize to readers and specifically to Jay for my last post. In reading it myself now, I see that it could come across as aggressive and laced with anger, though I did not write it while in the grip of either of those states. I was actually a bit sad when I composed it and it was written with the sincere desire that another point of view be seen. Sorry if it does not come across as a simplified description of what abuse means to me on a personal level with respect to RSE.

I also ask that if what I write in future is out of line or is perceived to be of little benefit to others that it be deleted by moderators or that they let me know following such a post. Your guidance in this regard is most appreciated and I thank you in advance as I may not be too clear on what/how to write so that it is beneficial. All that I can assure is that it is truthful for me at the time of the writing. As I go through the process of getting my life and my mind back together following RSE, my perspectives on many things are also going through a process. Thank you for your patience.

On another note, I found it interesting in Joe's link to the brainwashing debate that people who are deeply devoted to something may be more susceptible to become deeply devoted to something else. Hmmm. It leaves me to wonder if a long dedication to Buddhism made me more susceptible to become quickly and fully dedicated to RSE. In describing how a complete shift in beliefs can occur, the article uses the analogy of a box/cube being turned so it sits on another side. It struck a cord so I expect that there is some truth in that. The writer went on to say that it might take an equal amount of force to turn that cube on yet another side...or back to the original one. Sure puts a new perspective on advantages of "living outside of the box" (smile).

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David McCarthy
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Obedience to authority.....

Unread post by David McCarthy » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:26 pm

Jay posted...
I find it absolutely astounding that people on this message board would witness first-hand multiple episodes of JZ Knight committing assault and battery on her own clients and not inform the authorities immediately, not to mention the other "crimes" that appear to go on in every single event.
Jay..
Yes, this is true, It is also a fact that thousands of RSE "students" have witnessed first-hand multiple episodes of "Ramtha" abusing RSE members, physically, emotionally, monetarily and physiologically.
Have you heard of "The "Milgram experiment"? this will certainly offer insights into understanding your observations at RSE.
There are many other factors that come into play... but certainly I believe this is one of them.
I suggest you study the psychological effects and fallout of Cult membership, involvement and recovery.
Unless of course you believe that "Ramtha" is your teacher...:roll: !

David.

YouTube - Milgram Experiment (Derren Brown)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6GxIuljT3w

Milgram experiment
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Milgram experiment was a series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram, which measured the willingness of study participants to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts that conflicted with their personal conscience. Milgram first described his research in 1963 in an article published in the Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology,[1] and later discussed his findings in greater depth in his 1974 book, Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View.[2]
The experiments began in July 1961, three months after the start of the trial of Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem. Milgram devised the experiments to answer this question: "Could it be that Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?"[3]
Milgram summarized the experiment in his 1974 article, "The Perils of Obedience", writing:
The legal and philosophic aspects of obedience are of enormous importance, but they say very little about how most people behave in concrete situations. I set up a simple experiment at Yale University to test how much pain an ordinary citizen would inflict on another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental scientist. Stark authority was pitted against the subjects' [participants'] strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the subjects' [participants'] ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not. The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation.
Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority.

Milgram experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

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G2G
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Unread post by G2G » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:34 pm

Oh Jay, how innocent thou art! I was at my first event when JZ as ramtha made her way into the back of the hall and accused a young married man, in front of his wife and two children, of having "fantasies" of being with "his daughteren" (ramtha claims JZ is his reincarnated daughter, Ramayana - nice, slick borrowing from Hinduism, isn't it?). I was onstage and couldn't see what was happening aside from the couples' young son crying and JZ as ramtha shouting to this man, "admit it!! admit it!! He said he had not had such fantasies and it wasn't true. I later learned that JZ as ramtha was punching this guy repeatedly yet could not see this from where I was standing. HAD I SEEN THIS, I WOULD 'INDEED' HAVE REPORTED IT. But I was new and obviously was bewildered by a drunken "being" coming in, having open-mouthed kisses with women lined-up at the doorway after first the "baby holding and fawing," then this ramtha "being" getting onstage spouting the most vulgar language I've heard - all in the presence of children. Then spatting on the stage. Much confusion was going through my mind. YET I STILL SAY, I DEFINITELY WOULD HAVE WALKED OUT AND REPORTED IT HAD I SEEN THIS ABUSE. I did hear it.

Wake up and smell the coffee, or meet David and HAVE a coffee with him.
(That "Jay" wouldn't be longhand for "J" would it? j/k... ;-) ;-) ;-)
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972

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David McCarthy
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Unread post by David McCarthy » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:28 pm

unbound,

Please excuse my little exchange with "jay"... it is somewhat off topic.
But while I'm here I would like to say ...
Thank you for removing those "RSE blinders" and posting on EMF,
the light does seem blinding at first.....8)
I'm sure everyone appreciates your candid honesty and courage to post on EMF.

David.

*******************
Wake up and smell the coffee, or meet David and HAVE a coffee with him.
Great idea G2G,

Jay,
check your Email,
I look forward to hearing from you.
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....

Compassion
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At The Moment

Unread post by Compassion » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:58 pm

[quote="unbound"]I apologize to readers


After reading this my immediate thought was, 'Why Are You Apologizing for who you are?'

Compassion
Today Is A Good Day!

Kensho
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Unread post by Kensho » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:17 pm

Hello Compassion,

In re-reading my post it seemed that it could be perceived as coming from a mind possessed by anger or one that was retaliatory or argumentative. The way in which it could have been perceived as that is due to a failure on my part to make clear that I was presenting a point of view; different than the one that was being debated and that POV was my own.
That was the reason for the apology. I believe that the perception of anger in another, whether the anger exists or not, is not beneficial here or elsewhere.

As for myself, I choose to follow a common law first rather than a legal definition when it comes to definition of a term such as abuse. So that law as a guide must also be followed in discussions of a topic. For that I make no apology.

The Common Law that I refer to?
Do no harm and cause no loss.

voidgate
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Unread post by voidgate » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:37 am

Whatchamacallit wrote:

Jay is correct that the US courts cannot convict a cult leader of fraud no matter how bizarre the claims or beliefs unless there is sufficient, incontrovertible evidence that the leader is knowingly lying and intentionally using "undue influence" [a legal term] to manipulate others with beliefs they do not believe themselves or know to be false.

I consider it relatively easy to prove that Knight is a fraud. According to the reply received from the Attorney General?s department by myself Knight considers RSE is a religion.

Customers at RSE are not told it is a religion. Customers should be told before they enter the door that they are paying to attend a religion. There is nothing in the Conditions of Participation either that states people are attending a religion.

If anyone is deluded enough to think that it is something else is on offer then try testing that out in court. The bottom line is the law.


Publicly RSE advertises that what it has on offer are all the things stated by David McCarthy in this thread. Knight can?t refute what she has stated is on offer because the reply form the AG is in the public archives.

Customers are deluded into thinking they are getting education in a scientific study that develops latent abilities in the brain so they will be able to execute miracles a described in religion and more and yet Knight disagrees with this. She states via her lawyer ? The teachings are not intended, and certainly not guaranteed to develop occult powers?

Customers are lied to in order to get them to attend

Knight has incriminated herself in the above statement. Customers are told they are doing disciplines in order to change their brain so they can accomplish miracles. No one would spend hours of hardship on the field, in the tank, doing C and E or putting up with the extreme discomfort at that place if they were not convinced they were doing it for great potential personal gain. Knight?s INTENT is plainly stated and documented.


Ramtha has been copyrighted. People can copyright an IDEA. Knight owns the idea of Ramtha and it has taken me a long time to see what was not obvious which is that she could win a court case on the basis that she does own the idea.

It follows then that when the idea abuses others in plain public view then Knight is the one legally accountable. Jay has the right idea that criminal offences should be reported to the police.

The Attorney General?s department is the USA legal avenue for the people that deals with consumer fraud. RSE is a wide scale international rip off.

Knight is presented as the main example of an adept student and yet recently she had to ask the children of CSE to heal her. After 30 years since the school?s inception she still can?t heal herself. RSE used to advertise that people could learn to heal themselves in 8 days and C and E has healed every known disease.

Knight?s customers do not get very good results either. If you call it a religion you get away with it.

I think if people got together and gathered evidence she would not get away with it.

It is a poignant point that the USA in general has a religious mindset. Religion invades the monetary system, politics and common speech. Such is not the case in Australia and RSE is marketing what is covertly a religion to non religious countries.

.

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