Do You Still Pray?

[Kensho]

Excerpt copied from a post by David McCarthy in NVN & Other News Articles ? The Guru Scene
The post has been copied to here so that we may continue to discuss the topic of prayer as well as other spiritual practices that have been affected by involvement with RSE.

My "Ramtha conversion moment"

About the time of my second attendance at RSE, I remember experiencing something of a "Ramtha? conversion moment"...!
in this blissful state of mind, better know as a ?Depersonalization disorder" I made a solemn prayer of commitment that at all cost and effort I would give my life over to attending RSE, I was total convinced of ?Ramtha?s? magical powers and loving guidance,
that he was my teacher till the end of my days
My madness and commitment was so entrenched I became a heartless human tsunami to those that I loved..
I swept them aside and anything else that I was convinced by "Ramtha" was holding me back from the RSE path to ?enlightenment?.
The destructive epicenter however, to this day still remains JZ Knight and her greedy Ramtha corporation.
I have noticed....
Over the years and since recovering my life from RSE, I have completely lost my faith in prayer.
I expect this may be common to those recovering from religious cult abuse.

Joe, anyone...
Do you still pray?

David.

Dissociation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation


_________________
?But he has nothing on at all,? cried at last the whole people....
Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:03 am

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Response:

Hello David,

Yes, I still pray many times daily...never stopped.

I must admit though that the style and subject of what I consider to be prayer was severely contaminated during my time at RSE. What was once spontaneously generated for the benefit of others, was transformed at RSE to be mostly centered around self cherishing. RSE never did promote attaining 'enlightenment' for any purpose other than for self interests, and I found that bothersome throughout the time I was involved with it. I don't recall it ever being discussed at RSE just one was supposed to do with their ultimate destiny of full enlightenment once they attained it.

Even so, during the time that I was dedicated to Ramtha and following RSE doctrine, I held the view that all that I was engaged in (even when it was uncomfortable on a spiritual/emotional level) was ultimately purposeful; because I reasoned that in the end, I would be of greater service to others through attaining greater understanding and knowledge. Perhaps that has come to pass in an unexpected way?

When the realization came that the RSE experience was a distraction from what I believe to be a purposeful life, the resumption of more meaningful prayer reinforced and allowed me to remember something. It was the loving compassion that was, and sometimes still is obscured by delusion. I was still going to events after the realization came but it was meaningful prayer that not only gave me the courage to leave, but perhaps more importantly, prompted me to do so.

I do not 'ask' for anything from 'a higher power' through prayer, but rather generate and hold a thought that is in alignment with a selfless wish for others to be free of suffering (what ever that may be at the time or in the circumstance). I do believe and have faith in the power of such thought; that it does have an influence. So for me, prayer uses the mind in a purposeful way.

I think that the practice of prayer throughout the history of mankind reveals that all people have the common desire to be free of suffering, and/ or also have the desire for others to be free of it. Whether prayer is directed to a god, to a higher power or if it is just a thought that is generated in dependence on relieving a suffering, I think that it effects the one who prays as well as those whom the prayer may be directed toward.

May all beings be free to live a life filled with love and happiness.

Much love, unbound

[Dove]

Beautifully said Unbound.

The topic of ?dissociation? is a bit of a stickler for me at the moment, and one I have spend a lot of time contemplating, as dissociation with anything that reminds me of RSE I find I completely & utterly reject even though I realise I am missing out on some of the beauty of life. Mantra's or affirmations are a good example. They have been used by many people in all walks of life to help change ones state, become enthused eg. (an oldy but a goody) Every day & in every way I am getting stronger & stronger ...... aaaaahhh it reeks of the neighbourhood walk (was the inspiration for the neighbourhood walk I should say) so even though I said affirmations every morning for years on end before I ever attended RSE I CANNOT DO THEM NOW - no it reminds me of the ugliness of RSE.

When I first attended RSE I went with a passionate love of God. For most of my life I believed that God/the infinite wisdom/grace (whatever you want to call it) lives within ? I believed this long before I?d ever heard of Ramtha (like many other people), however like yourself Unbound, I also experienced that the style and subject of what I consider to be prayer was severely contaminated during my time at RSE. Also my notion of manifesting what I desire in my life (creating reality) feels as though it has been contaminated. From a very young age I was taught that I could create whatever I wanted in my life, as long as I believed I could, took massive action towards it, if it was in line with the greater good of all, then anything was possible with action & attitude?.. ? like many other people I have experienced this as true for me many many times.

Once I became heavily indoctrinated with RSE I trusted Ramtha enough to forget my past, and what had worked for me (after all it was my past) and changed my techniques to the RSE style. I clamped down on my intuition because I believed Ramtha knew best, even though deep down I KNEW some of these techniques/disciplines just weren?t right for me. Something vital was missing, but no I clamped down on it, because after all Ramtha was the ascended master, the hierophant - he knew best.

I have been out of RSE for a few months now - do I still pray ? yes I do, but in a very simple way to a beloved trusting friend that is somehow a part of me. How I feel is very difficult to articulate?.. on one hand the beauty of God that I know to be real could never be destroyed for me, it?s too deep yet I?m aware I?m distancing myself from that part to a certain extent, it?s there but I?m wanting space from it ???. And on the other hand something beautiful has been tainted ?. It?s a little like waiting for the dust to settle. I guess the bottom line is my trust has been violated, and I'm still coming to terms with it.

A godsend since leaving RSE has come to me in the form of animal rescue work. It has been deeply healing and allowed me to pour my compassion and love into helping those in desperate need. I can?t express the gratitude I feel for this work, it makes me feel so alive again to be doing something worthwhile, the work breaks my heart yet can fill me with exquisite joy if we can turn an innocent?s life around. I see myself becoming human again. I didn?t realize it till after the event, but the RSE doctrine had started to affect me, I had started to distance myself from my natural compassion for others, believing that this was a human limitation, and that everything was created by everyone, therefore everyone was experiencing what they really wanted or needed ?..I am in the process of becoming a human being again, thank god.

[Kensho]

Dove,

QUOTE: I guess the bottom line is my trust has been violated, and I'm still coming to terms with it.

IMO you've hit the nail on the head. For some that have expressed their experiences on the topic, that violation of trust seems to carry through to a violation faith that was once held as well. Once we begin to question what was promoted at RSE, we may find ourselves questioning everything else with a similar level of distaste and discernment.

Within the first few months after leaving RSE the background thought, 'Where is the proof?' came up a lot for me. When I considered much of what I had believed and had faith in both before and during RSE, all of a sudden I needed to have tangible proof. This extended to the usefulness or lack there of with respect to meditation as well as the belief in anything beyond physical existence.

There was a sense that I was at a fork in the road on many levels and trying to choose which road to take only left me paralysed. I was really quite stuck in trying to choose whether I should I take the road that led back to where it all went wrong or would the road I was on before getting involved in RSE be the wiser choice? Neither appealed at that time for I couldn't get rid of the programmed thought pattern that continued to run even after I left RSE. It was just as you say...even a simple thing like saying an affirmation was contaminated with an RSE thought or behaviour pattern, and that was a huge deterrent from continuing with it.

For me it was not affirmations that triggered doubt and distaste, but rather anything beyond what appeared physically. I couldn't come up with the proof that would have me go back to what I once had faith in either. The reason for that was that the Ramtha character never proved any of the claims of power or philosophy that were made...and I realized nor could I with respect to what I had once believed in. All things spiritual seemed to fall under hearsay and I questioned the validity of most of it.

The one thing that I did not question or have doubt in was what arose spontaneously in my quietest moments because it often did not whisper...and quite often it was not kind or consoling either. These thoughts were familiar to me from long before RSE and they were the ones that I had covered over with deluded thought patterns while in RSE. It was critical thinking returning, albeit mixed with self judgement and pressure to suck it up and move on.

Meditation and prayer, that others not suffer the torment that I was experiencing was what filled my days and nights, for that was all I could do to reconcile with the guilt, remorse and self reproach for abandoning my faith in the first place.

In time I came to understand that a good portion of what I had thought that I abandoned was actually stolen through RSE behaviour modification and what ever other tactics were used by RSE. Admittedly, I was receptive to such conditioning because I desired a change at that time in my life...but I never did agree to be emotionally abused or spiritually prostituted for the financial gain of a corporation; even if they did teach something of value.

It has been a year that I have been out of RSE and the repulsion that once strongly arose in relation to anything that reminded me of RSE 'disciplines' has faded away. Perhaps it is true what they say, 'Time heals all wounds' but I also think that holding onto what faith I had in kindness at the beginning of the aftermath got me through the roughest patches. For me that was fortified through meditation and prayer.

I think that what was also very helpful in getting back on my feet was having the opportunity to read and participate in the many topics of discussion on EMF. That allowed me to realize that RSE did not have the personal relationship with me that I once had with them. I was just another body that came, spent money and went...there was nothing personal or spiritual about it. The abuse was simply the nature of such organizations. Once I realized that, the negative emotional attachments/reactions that I had to RSE, their doctrines and their practices transformed into a deep feeling of pity for those still involved.

Hope that revealing this helps.

Much love, unbound

[Dove]

aaaah, thankyou Unbound : I can relate to everything you have said, infact you have helped me to see things a little more clearly.

There was a sense that I was at a fork in the road on many levels and trying to choose which road to take only left me paralysed. I was really quite stuck in trying to choose whether I should I take the road that led back to where it all went wrong or would the road I was on before getting involved in RSE be the wiser choice? Neither appealed at that time for I couldn't get rid of the programmed thought pattern that continued to run even after I left RSE. It was just as you say...even a simple thing like saying an affirmation was contaminated with an RSE thought or behaviour pattern, and that was a huge deterrent from continuing with it.

Oh yes, I can relate to this.........lots to contemplate

Thankyou xx

[Caterpillar]

Hello everyone


Thank you for your thoughts that were beautifully expressed.


Question: Do you still pray?

Answer: No as I have abandoned all my imaginary friends but I can talk to myself sometimes?


After the traumatic RSE experience, I have found a sense of freedom in being a realist and a nonbeliever at the moment.

[Robair]

Hello David everyone

Not only do I not pray,I have lost all faith in any kind of God.I don't think I am an Atheist as I still keep an open mind,but my critical thinking take over everytime I let my self slip back to any kind of thought about Gods,religions, or Spirituality.
Oldone

[David McCarthy]

Thanks for posting everyone,

There are some things that need to remain very private and dare I say "sacred"...!
The nature and effects of RSE is the systematic destruction of our innate sacredness of being a human being,
But to define and write about what that actually means.... is very personal and challenging,
For one reason I think, many of us are still hurting from a deep wound and not something I can blithely chat about.
But I also realize that the very nature of the RSE is to bury our innate and beautiful feelings and emotions under the weight of the indoctrinations "brainwashing" that depends on our inability to access and coherently voice what is authentic in our own being,,
perhaps this is ?The Sacred? I am talking about?
But when I think of prayer or praying?.. I feel as if the sacred room deep within me where I once offered up prayers
has been trashed and vandalized by Judith/RSE.
Perhaps one day I will have the ?faith? and a sacred place within myself to pray again.
I certainly do not believe that praying makes oneself more ?spiritual?,
but I am sure that for millions on this Earth, prayer is a beautiful instrument of the heart that leads to much goodness and healing.

But not for me right now.

David.

[Caterpillar]

Hello everyone

What is the difference between praying and talking to yourself? Is hoping for something to happen the same as praying but without thinking about it in spiritual terms?

What if we avoid words that have religious/spiritual affiliations?

Would that put things in a different perspective?

Just wondering...

[joe sz]

David, et al,

After i broke with Mother E C Prophet's cult in 1980, a cult that required an incessant amount of "prayer" called decreeing [hyperspeed chanting] as well as use of New Thought style affirmations and Hindu chants or 'bhajans', and I include Aums or Oms and Buddhist 'Om Mani Padme Om's--- along with songs from Christian hymnals {Amazing Grace anyone?} and distorted versions of Catholic prayer and rosaries to Mary, I had difficulty for many years with any form of prayer beyond what most of you mentioned as a form of private or individual "thingy with the cosmos" at odd times while walking around alone or feeling really desperate in what might be called my soul.

All forms of prayer felt polluted.

I have come to terms with it over the years. I have come to recognize incredible beauty in all the great religions even if I have settled back into Catholicism. When i contemplate the utter vastness of the cosmos I become totally speechless and terrified. I am in awe. At that moment I am a strict Jew who dares not even think of, much less utter the "name" [YHWH]. At that moment I could be a Muslim in complete helpless submission with my butt in the air and my lips to the ground. I wonder what in hell gave of itself to create this monstrous universe in all its beauty and terror. Then I am a Christian bowing before the eternal sacrifice that gives me life.


William Blake ends his poem The Tyger : http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~keith/poems/tyger.html

Tyger! Tyger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?

Dare indeed to create a lamb and a tiger. Try praying that one away!

In prayer i do not ask for things or command things or speculate about the future of things anymore. I merely strive for communion and a boost in my effort to participate in life..

Hope that helps.

[Marie]

Disenchantment with prayer, etc., affects family members as well.....It has taken me probably a year to come to this place, but my belief in any "god" has gone by the way side as well... and actually I find it liberating.... .... I don't pray right now because there is still too much association between god and prayer for me right now....Seeing mom and the fervor with which "see believes" in rse has made me realize, it's all the same thing, christianity, muslim, buddist, rse, whatever....it's just a HUMAN BELIEF...IMO, there is a lot of guilt, baggage, pressures to behave certain ways, embrace ideas, etc., that is associated with all belief systems.....Even in the most benign and gentle belief systems control and the promise you'll get something in return are there, you'll go to heaven, live forever, be a good person, sit on the right hand of ramtha ....pft...I just enjoy being me now!.... ... I am relieved of not having to go to church every week, and strive to "be a better human being"....sounds familiar, doesn't it!!.... .....

I read with interest about the new anthropological find ...The 4.5 million year old woman... The artcle said anthropologists think she is another link to the evolution of homosapiens...And that initially, we all -- apes and humans -- evolved from a single species, but that at different points, different species branched off and emerged, some just dying off completely, until humans and apes remained as two distinct species...And that the human species evolution was more brain concentrated, and the apes species was more physically concentrated...They said that apes have actually evolved much more than humans have in a physical way from the original species!.. ...I found that fascinating, and it makes sense to me and takes the "fairy tale wind" out of any god centered evolutionary theories....

Dove, a in nail the church coffin came for me when I was sitting in church one Sunday and heard the minister say in his sermon that animals are "less" than people..anyone who has owned a dog knows the opposite is true....

[joe sz]

Marie,
I hear what you mean about dogs but I am not so sure everyone feels the same about "their" dog.

Dove, a in nail the church coffin came for me when I was sitting in church one Sunday and heard the minister say in his sermon that animals are "less" than people..anyone who has owned a dog knows the opposite is true....

Asian country folk raise dogs as a food source; and there is the Michael Vick legacy. In my case, we have a wonderful dog, an Aussie healer/smooth collie cross, but I do not value or view her as I view my children. She's a dog in the family.

I had an opposite experience in church last summer with a priest who had been stationed in the Philippines where he served in a poor village for most of his adut life. When he stood up to give the homily he said he could not go through with it. Just two days before he heard from his Philippine co-worker that they had to put his dog down due to its suffering from an incurable illness. He talked about his dog, a golden retriever, that he had for 8 years. It was his "best friend." He was visibly shaken. He said he wept all night. Then he stepped off the pulpit. This is a 55 year old man who has given brilliant, relevant homilies in the past.

To me forms prayer within or out of a religion imply that a relationship of some kind is going on if only with a deeper sense of self. Whether one calls it prayer, communion, or meditation the very act can cause a sense of peace, euphoria or anxiety depending on how and what for one prays.

The very thought of identifying with any religion after a lousy cult experience can be anxiety inducing and that can last a lifetime. For some people the triggers never go away. Another way to look at this is through marriage. After a divorce it is easy to drift into a reactionary frame of mind toward ever getting married again. Yet second marriages can be wonderful.

There's more than one way to skin this cat called life--or should i say, find peace and fulfillment in this world

[Marie]

I hear what you mean about dogs but I am not so sure everyone feels the same about "their" dog.

Hey Joe... I agree with you -- it struck me that in your post, the word "religion" could be substituted for "dog" and still make sense..... not everyone feels the same about their "religion" either!!.... ....To each their own, and I think the most important part of this discussion is that we all find different venues for coping in this crazy world and I guess the important thing is that we DO cope, not what method we use, as long as it is not harmful to ourselves or others. ......It is interesting to ponder on what makes us all so "sure" our way is the right way....Five years ago I would have been one of those who told you how much peace and a sense of love I got out of a spiritual god, entity belief and going to church -- even if I didn't buy all the history and dogma, it gave me peace and some direction, and I was ok with the "take what you need and leave the rest" line of thinking -- and felt sympathy for those who didn't, as I was sure they were "missing something" in their lives... Now, "dog" is my higher power!!.... ... I understand about the minister in your post... I was never really a dog person, until about eight years ago I was with my son in a pet store where they were giving away rescue pups....They were big dogs, and I didn't want a dog, period, let alone a BIG one.. but I went to just "go look" at them and there she was, this black, furry angel sleeping on the floor....and I heard "this voice" say "If you don't get this dog, you'll never get a better dog than this"....and that was it, I had to get the dog....And I have to say what she did to my heart and my life was completely unexpected... She touched my heart in away that I had not experienced.....I was so in love with that dog I missed her when I went work in the morning and could still smell her puppy smell on my hands while I was gone and feel that love.....It was true, she was the "best" dog.....She died unexpectedly two years ago but she lived a good life and I will never forget the love she showed me and the love she evoked from me......

[joe sz]

Marie,
This might be a new thread....but it relates to the pray idea also.
I am reacting to your signature. I just got the book "Losing My Religion: How I Lost My Faith reporting in Religion in America--and Found Unexpected Peace" by William Lobdell (48, award winning jounalist). www.williamlobdell.com

Lobdell's book (2009) has been praised by atheists and skeptics like Christopher Hitchens and Michael Shermer [Skeptic magazine] as well as Rev. John Huffman of Christianity Today mag.

One of my colleagues wants to co-review it with me for a journal.

I'm curious if anyone else has read it? After I finish my review, I will post it and let you know.

[Caterpillar]

Joe, I haven?t read it but I was reading Lobdell?s post called ?Without a Doubt?.

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.c ... thout.html

"So it?s time for religious doubt to come out of the closet and be dealt openly and thoughtfully. I was honored (and a little surprised) that Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena made my essay required reading for faculty and students. Seminary leaders wanted to address the issue of doubt head-on, which is the healthy course to take. If Christianity is true, its teachers can dispel just about any doubt."

[joe sz]

caterpillar

I got the book and am 85 pages into it. Lobdell intros his book with a quote from Descartes:

If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.

The book is an easy read. Nothing hammy or pin-headed so far.