The EnlightenMeFree (EMF) Online Debate Forum

Frederick Lenz, proclaiming to be a teacher of Zen Buddhism began to gain a following in 1981; around the same time that RSE was formed. Much of the frameworks of both organizations are very similar, including the topics covered and the style in which they are delivered. Each cult is headed by one self professed 'fully enlightened teacher' (Lenz claimed that he was one of only twelve enlightened people on the planet). The parallel time-lines and similarities of the two organizations leave the question which came first...the chicken or the egg?
Which came first...Lenz's cult or JZR's? Or did they parallel each other because the leaders were drawing from similar sources and possibly stealing ideas/interpretations from eachother?

The legacy of this cult leader after his suicide in 1998. The foundation markets books, DVDs and CDs of talks that were given by Frederick Lenz; some may be downloaded or listened to on-line. The self righteous and arrogant personas of JZR and Lenz are so similar that it is startling.
http://fredericklenzfoundation.org/

Overview on the history, teachings, suicide and legacy of this cult leader.
Cites Joe Szimhart as well as cult watchdog groups as deprogrammers involved with some of the ex-members.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Lenz

jz started in the 70's - 77 I think. It would be interesting to know if Lenz ever attended the Dialogue Days of ramtha....
Someone who had done a lot of research to expose the scam connected jz and penny tores and claire prophet -practicing channeling together.
No question they all learn and copy from each other....

Thanks for clarification on the dates. It does seem that cult leaders copy some of their material, style of presentations and perhaps even the setting up of the structure of their organizations from each other. That they may have contact with eachother for the purpose of sharing information on how to further control and rob their followers, is disturbing.

Much love, unbound

I "exited" maybe 2 dozen people out of Lenz's cult so I had to study every nuance of his history and teaching---that meant listening to hours and hours of his lectures---ugh...and reading and reviewing his books for journals. Here's one review:
www.csicop.org/si/show/snow_job_in_the_himalayas/
and a book by an ex-member:
www.icsahome.com/infoserv.../bkrev_takemeforride.htm

In the 1970s till 1981 Lenz was a follower and top recruiter for Sri Chinmoy [died recently] until he broke away in the early 1980s to start his own cult as Atmananda. @ 1983 he had a "realization" that he was indeed "Rama", an incarnation of that Hindu god. Somehow in his narcissistic effort he began teaching something he called "American Buddhism" and got nearly every one under him to go into computer programming. The more successful students [100 or more] would send him $2 to $3 thousand in cold cash every month for the privelege of having his "energy" for protection and prosperity. One I knew of gave him over $200,000 in a year. He called himself Zen Master Rama, thus combining two traditions which is patently self-defeating philosophically, but when you are a true believer you can reconcile anything in your brilliant head.

In the end Lenz was using more drugs other than the LSD and uppers and downers he was noted for---who knows what got to him but I am sure he was ill and killed himself finally in a ritual suicide

Hello guys
Carterpillar put a post on JZ many dates.
I was copying the 1985 tape from Hawaii, a few months ago and in the interview at the begenning of the tape with Lee somebody she mentioned that Ramtha came to visit her for the first time in 1978,and that her husband saw him also, in her book and everyone else it is 1977 but the dates changes.
She cannot keep her lies strait,that for sure.
OLdone

Thanks Joe,

I thought that you might be able to share some of your insight.

American Buddhism? I never heard of it until I read the Wikipedia blurb on Lenz. I wondered if Lenz actually believed that he was serving a greater good by creating a "new" tradition or if he was on a power trip and intentionally misled people for his own profit from the get go. With your review of his book, there's not much doubt that he was engaged in the latter.

Lenz's talks have some similarities to Engaged Buddhism (a form of Zen) that is promoted by Tich Nat Hahn (Vietnam); in that Tich Nat Hahn's way of promoting the Dharma is more relative to Western Culture. The similarities would seem to end there though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nhat_Hanh

Re: the word PHAT; Lenz may have 'borrowed' this word from the Vietnamese language in that it is sometimes used in Vietnamese Zen Buddhism; especially in reference to one who teaches. Some Vietnamese teachers and Vietnamese Buddhist schools and temples use the word in their title/name.

Lenz claimed that the word was given to him by an Oracle-teacher, apparently to disperse negative energies, but his use of it seems to be in opposition to the Vietnamese definition. Perhaps in his confusion he misread the translation of 'to dispense...' and read 'to disperse' instead.
Vietnamese - English dictionary
Phat: to distribute, to dispense, to issue, to deliver, to slap, to clap

In the end, even through his drug use and apparent excesses, Lenz may have come to the realization that he had captured the trust of people through less than virtuous means. I expect that the same realization is present in Judith's mind and that it has been there for some time; if not from the start.

From the bit of Lenz's stuff that I sampled, it seems to be pretty much the same distorted/misinterpreted blend of different philosophies, religions and delusional thinking that is promoted by the Ramtha character at RSE.
What Lenz was promoting does not follow any traditional form of Buddhism that I have come across; much less any form of Zen.

I do find it interesting that both Lenz and JZR claim(ed) to be fully enlightened teachers to their followers. That seems to be the foundation on which is constructed a cult leader's free licence to abuse/steal from those who trust them under the guise of instructing/assisting/enlightening them.
What a terrible and shameful thing to do.

The more I learn about it, the more I find the whole spiritual cult thing very sad for all involved.

Much love, unbound

Who has a better Baloney? There seem to be many to choose from?


Unbound and AD60, according to JZ, she went public with Ramtha in 1979, end of 1978 or beginning in 1978!!!


(1) From RSE, ?Ramtha has been teaching since 1979??

http://www.ramtha.com/html/world-tour/w ... hedule.stm


(2) In JZ?s book ?A State of Mind? (1987) on page 368, in late Nov 1978, the Rama Center called JZK for the first time and invited her to channel Ramtha at the center. That was her ?debut? as Ramtha (page 377).


(3) According to RSE?s PR Web, JZ Knight started channeling Ramtha publicly around the country and abroad beginning in 1978 and continuing through the 1980s. This period of their work together was called the ?Dialogue Days.?

http://www.prwebdirect.com/releases/200 ... 799014.htm



Frederick Lenz and JZK both claim connections to ?Rama?. Fortunately for JZ, she got in first?


Who is Ramtha?

http://www.ramtha.com/html/media/faqs/teacher/who.stm

From RSE: ?? the great warrior was later to become "Rama" of the Hindu religion, the first god of the people of India.?


Ramtha claimed to have lived one life here so it could mean Rama did not reincarnate into Frederick Lenz IF Ramtha was Rama? This is confusing! May be the Hindus could be consulted.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rama

From above, ?Most of the details of Rama's life come from the Ramayana, one of the two great epics of India.?


http://www.ramtha.com/html/glossary.asp

From RSE: ?Ramaya. Ramtha refers to JZ Knight as his beloved daughter. She was Ramaya, the first one to become Ramtha's adopted child during his lifetime.?


JZ?s name ?Ramaya? in Ramtha?s lifetime could have been derived from ?Ramayana?.

maybe frederick lenz allways passed out when jz canneled ramtha.....or they lended personaleties from paralell universes... in india there can be several incarnations from the same deity they just dont aknowledge each other.

QUOTE: maybe frederick lenz allways passed out when jz canneled ramtha.....

That's hilarious!
Much love, unbound

Which came first...Lenz's cult or JZR's? Or did they parallel each other because the leaders were drawing from similar sources and possibly stealing ideas/interpretations from eachother?

Hi Unbound,

I personally think it was more a sign of the times, you know, like when flat screen tvs came in, all the companies want to jump on board. Same with cult leaders, they are more then happy to repackage each others ideas and then call them sacred prophecies.

I had the occasion to look deeper into Lenz's group when someone I know who had been flirting with a variety of what I would consider authoritarian groups was recruited into a group at her school. The school was Hunter College in NY. I forgot the exact title of the class, but it was something about learning how to meditate and eastern religion.

She and I had had a variety of conversations about these groups and while contentious had always been civil and she respected my opinion even if she disagreed.

She contacted me to let me know she had signed up for this class and to tell me that THIS could not be a cult. I just told her that it didn't appear to be anything particularly unusual as far as I could tell except for the fact that the teacher of the course had personally suggested it to her. I was aware at the time that Lenz used colleges and at times courses to recruit from.

I did some checking and while I couldn't come up with anything, the fact that I didn't come up with anything left me curious. I asked her if she would mind if I would enroll in the class to check it out further. The teacher (an attractive woman) Taught a variety of meditative techniques and used guided imagery often.

After a couple of classes, when there were several excited students asking her some questions after class, I asked where she had obtained her knowledge of meditation, she referred to her "master" a few times, to me an obvious dodge of my question even when pressed gently, she would still only say her master. I finally had to say, "no, I meant does your ""master"" have a name. It was then that she told me his name was RAMA, Master Rama. I asked, "does he also go by the name of Fredrick lenz" With daggers in her eyes she said "yes."

I revealed to my friend some of what I knew about Lenz's recruiting techniques and said that I was 95% certain this was one of his.
We ended up in our usual conversation about even so, what makes him so different then other things in society. I would reiterate that maybe it didn't but one could discern, when someone was not disclosing certain facts and why they might be doing that.

This woman was from a very well off family. It appeared that she was the only one who they were recruiting from the class of about 12 people. She was the only one to recieve an invitation to meet "The Master".

She decided to go, against my advise. I did ask her something after explaining the reported charisma of this dude.

"What if I told you that you would more then likely be seated next to him and fawned over?" Her reply was "Why would a Master fawn over me??' I simply said, because he sees you as a meal ticket. She acknowledged that I had been right about the school course and said if that happened she wouldn't fall for it.

She went, it went down exactly like I said, even a bit more explicit, she played sick and got out of there but they continued to contact her for months.

In this sense I think JZ operates in the same method, one for the "folkies" of the group another for the ones she feels have mega$ potential. I guess in a way, it is the same game that has been being played for years