Hooked by some good stuff?

There are a number of ways that people of all walks of life get recruited into cults. Share your experience here.
sara
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:28 pm
Location: UK

Hooked by some good stuff?

Unread post by sara »

Dear EMF

This is my first post; I've been reading all the posts for two weeks now and want to say thank you to all of you - Tree, Whatcha, David and all the others - I have learned from and appreciated your openness and honesty, your willingness to put so much time into sharing your experiences, replying to other people, taking part in discussions. Your desire to help in a way that is true help; genuine, not deceptive or abusive, is amazing and a privilege to see. I wonder if maybe the "desire to be part of a force for good" (not the exact words) that I read about in a post - one of yours, David? is coming out now in the way you are here on this board giving your time to offer help to others, so that they don't go through all that you did? In any case, it is wonderful to see. I have gained so much from reading all the posts, so here is another example of someone you've reached and touched without even knowing it until now.

I don't know exactly what I can offer as I never quite made it to Yelm and only went to one retreat in Italy in 2003, but I'm going to share what I can as what I thought of as the Ram's teaching was incredibly important to me and a huge part of my life - and in some ways still is, even though I'm now picking apart what it was that I experienced - questioning everything, wondering to what extent I was taken in. I feel as though I have so little to offer in comparison with those who spent 10 or 20 years in the "school" - but will share it in the hope that it will maybe be of some use to someone. Some of the ways in which I got hooked in seemed - and maybe were - genuinely good - I did experience some good through RSE, although I can see that it could have come in different ways.

My first contact was with a woman who was very active in RSE for a long time; I met her through friends at a time when spiritual experiences - or spiritual growth - were not at all new to me - I had been introduced to the kind of healing I do now (which is absolutely unlike even opposed to, what I learned from RSE!), I had started to have two-way conversations with what I thought of as my "higher self" or "infinite self" and with inner helpers who were nothing to do with spirit guides - more like pure light - I'd spent years among the Sufis, was just leaving that path, and had an understanding or "experience" of God, or Spirit, or love, or all-that-is - the names don't matter at all, I just know what it felt like to be loved and carried by that love, to know it was there even when I couldn't feel it for a while - but I didn't know that it was possible to be "taught from within" and have two-way conversations with helpers or angels. The woman who taught me that - or rather, taught me that I could make my own connection, used to say, "This is true for me. It's for you to decide whether or not it's true for you." I would walk for hours listening and learning, and I didn't think it mattered whether I - or anyone else - thought that the connection was with my higher self, my intuition, with angels or helpers - I thought that it came from a level at which it was all unity, and that if there was such a thing as God, or inner helpers, or angels, they would talk to my intuition, not my "left brain", so that it all came to the same. I was also very familiar with Chris Griscom's work at the Light Instutite, which was the closest I'd found to what I was doing in the UK with (at first) the colleague who taught me. This gives you a little background - moderators, please edit or move my post if it's too long or off-track. Into this mix came the woman who was part of RSE, who became a friend. When we first met, I was talking with her about having recently left a relationship, and that it was difficult to leave my partner's three children - almost harder than leaving my partner. She asked me, "Did you gain from being with them?", and I said yes; she asked if they had gained from living with me, and I said that I hoped so. She asked, "then where's the loss?" I asked, wasn't it human to feel the loss of these kids... (and I still think that it is!) and her answer really caught my interest - she said, "Don't be human; be God!". Now I look back and think that this is maybe typical of the way that human emotions can be dismissed at RSE - I saw much more of that later - but at the time her words stayed with me because they were very much what the Sufis say - that you are God - not in an ego sense. That was what I got from JZR in the beginning. I remember walking across as cornfield and "hearing" - not aloud - the words "Wake up! Don't you know that you are God?!" Very much what the Sufis would say, but much bolder and more uncompromising than I had heard it from them. At the time I loved and needed that boldness; the impulse, or reminder, to know that I could take charge of my thoughts and be responsible for myself and my life. My RSE friend gave me a book; I think it was the "beginners' guide", which I also loved, not recognising the pseudo-science at that time - and she and I started to spend time together. She didn't just talk about the teaching; she and her partner and I sat around her kitchen table talking about everything that we had learned and were learning about life, about how we operated, about learning to be loving... She recognised that her partner had been truly loving and there for her, even though she had thought that she knew more than he did. I was impressed by her willingness to question herself, to admit when she was wrong. She would catch herself judging her partner, and say, "He does that, well, I do this, who am I to say anything about what he does. The other thing that impressed me about her and about the teaching was what I heard from her partner and sister. They had not been at all into RSE at first, but after a year or 1 1/2 years they had both asked her about it, saying that before she got into the teaching she had been very irritable and hard to live with, and now she was much calmer and seemed happy. They wanted to learn about RSE because of the changes they had seen in her... She lent me any book, any CD or DVD that I wanted; her sister was amazed my her generosity, saying that she didn't lend things to anyone. I spent a long weekend staying with her in the country and we ate, breathed and slept JZR. She told me about and showed me the C&E breathing but never pushed me into it - I was the one who joined her on the floor one morning and started to do it. I don't know what videos or DVDs she showed me that weekend, but they spoke to me, and I connected with the energy that to me was "Ramtha", I guess there could be all kinds of other explanations for what I experienced that weekend and onwards, but I associated it with the teachings and with JZR. Another interesting thing that I was not expecting at all - knowing absolutely nothing about orbs, I dreamt on the second night that I could see hundreds of spherical lights coming towards me and past me - just like the orbs I later saw in photos. As they came near me, out of some of them came beings who looked like little goblins - I had very little concept then of nature devas or elementals. My friend said that that indicated a strong connection with the elemental kingdom - I didn't know what other explanation to give; it didn't seem that vital. She also said that there would be a beginners' retreat in Italy that summer and that she thought I would be on it. Was that a suggestion? I don't know, but later in the year - she and I met in the New Year - I signed up for the retreat at Sportilia because I wanted to.

More to follow, but I hope this gives you an idea of what got me into the teaching and how some of it did seem good. I also noticed my friend being quite insensitive to another friend, flatly contradicting something that the other person believed - I thought then that it was just her manner. I can see now how it was probably more to do with the certainties she got from RSE. She would tell me things as though they were absolutely true, including things that I've found from this site were not at all undisputed. I guess that was a red flag that I became aware of later. I have to go for now - I hope this will touch someone, somewhere.

Sara
Wakeup-Call
Posts: 271
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:20 am
Location: Washington

Unread post by Wakeup-Call »

Hi Sara,

Welcome to EMF!

I can relate to your story and it sounds like you have stopped and taken a pause to consider RSE at a perfect time.

Everyone I know in RSE, including myself, was attracted to some positive aspect of Ramtha's teachings
via the tapes, books, personal contact or beginning retreat. Particularly, the hope and possibility of human potential.

In my opinion, and there is evidence posted on EMF here, that JZ has used books and other sources of spiritual teachings
and passed them off as original to Ramtha. So, no doubt, she finds things that resonate with people.

You're at the point now where the "honeymoon" starts to change to pressure and guilt. As in, if you're committed to maximizing
your spiritual growth this lifetime, if you're truly committed to The Great Work, that you won't waste the "rare and wonderful" opportunity
to be in Ramtha's presence while he's still channeling through JZ.

If you buy into that, and travel around the world to Yelm...then the next pressure is the SCARE of impending Earth Changes and the
belief that you need to move to Yelm to be safe. Any other choice is only 2nd rate and you're taking your chances. Somehow,
Ramtha is going to protect the students in Yelm. People will stop talking to you about remote healing and all your spiritual interests and instead
it will be about whether you are "prepared for the changes."

If you buy into that, and move around the world to Yelm....and put your life savings into RSE events, food rations, the pockets of unskilled RSE students
who manifest in a moment that they are plumbers and carpenters, etc...but can't find a job above minimum wage...well, then the teachings are not
that Ramtha will protect and help you but that you are an unfocused, undisciplined slacker who could have a home like JZ's if you would just focus.

I would bet a paycheck that if you let your friend know that you have been reading on the EMF forum, that you appreciate Ramtha's teachings but
you think perhaps the origin of the knowledge is from JZ's reading - I would bet you will find yourself dropped as a friend.

But first, this student sounds like she is the type of student that will dismiss you as stupid and uninsightful. She will toss at you the scientific "proof"
that JZ is truly channeling (that's why there is a special thread on EMF on that topic). And chastise you for allowing doubt (which is really critical thinking)
to creep into your mind.

Your courage to post here is appreciated! Like you said, by people who read and don't post, people who may be considering getting more deeply involved in
RSE but want to first check what the critics have to say.

One problem with the Ramtha model of thought is that once you take your psychic abilities and experiences and get them hooked into Ramtha's pretty random
explanations of the phenomena, it's very difficult to unhook from the appealing but unscientific explanations. There have been some interesting discussions here
on the EMF forum with people already well down the path of blindly buying into Ramtha's explanations (e.g., who and what the orbs are - it's a phenomena yes -
but all the explanations Ramtha has given??? Really???? The students believe it simply because Ramtha says so much like fundamentalist Christians taking the
Bible literally without question.)

Good luck in your contemplations!
tree
Posts: 974
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 12:31 am

Unread post by tree »

Thank you for posting Sara. And thank you for taking time to read through so many posts.
I know the quantitative aspects of time spent in RSE seem relevant, but I think it is not.
As is the case with a few others who have "just gone to one event"
your life was completely, in your mind, turned over to RSE way of thinking.
yes, some have had it imbued on them for years and years, but the effects are still the same.
I, for one, would love to hear about your process coming out, and what you are still dealing with
at the moment. You never know who you may touch.
Welcome!


Quote:
She asked, "then where's the loss?" I asked, wasn't it human to feel the loss of these kids... (and I still think that it is!) and her answer really caught my interest - she said, "Don't be human; be God!".



this pat answer of "be God" totally dismisses very strong emotions that are a part of human life.

What a devestating loss for you Sara.And I am sure for the children as well.
To this day, a previous partner's kids STILL tell their parent: "Ms Tree was the BEST partner/parent you ever had!"
And this, to me, speaks volumes.
The loss, even though under the guise of RSE that "chaos is good, embrace the change", was still underpining.

As another example,
I knew a couple who had their house flooded up to the 5 foot mark in their house in McKenna.
They were told by every student that they encountered that "this was a blessing in disguise."
I will never forget the words of a fellow RSE student who happened to be a psychologist.
They said: "Having your house torn down is one of THEE most stressful things a person could have happen
in their life. They still need to process those feelings." Yet, when they were guided through this process
of loss, they were still told "It was for the better."


Quote:


even though she had thought that she knew more than he did



MAJOR, MAJOR subtle red flag! ding! ding! ding!
That, and the way she flatly treated her other friend.

Sure, her family may have seen some calming effects of the group,
but they do not want to recognize this narcissistic arrogance.
Something is not computing properly. Wink
tree
Posts: 974
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 12:31 am

Unread post by tree »

I would bet a paycheck that if you let your friend know that you have been reading on the EMF forum, that you appreciate Ramtha's teachings but
you think perhaps the origin of the knowledge is from JZ's reading - I would bet you will find yourself dropped as a friend.

But first, this student sounds like she is the type of student that will dismiss you as stupid and uninsightful. She will toss at you the scientific "proof"
that JZ is truly channeling (that's why there is a special thread on EMF on that topic). And chastise you for allowing doubt (which is really critical thinking)
to creep into your mind.
totally agree.
AND the fact that she has been a student for oh, so long, and knows better than you do!

The friends I left behind feel this way about me.
We had been students for a better part of 20 years.
And now that Tree has left the nest, she REALLY has gone off the deep and
and was not committed enough to the disciplines to see the errors of her ways.
Plus, she didn't focus enough. :shock:

let me tell you, after 20 years of focusing.....
and others like me, who are still DYING and laying in hospital beds as I type.
Current students: You are telling me these ill and dying students are not focused enough?
Well, then, I almost hate to say it, but, when it happens to you,
and you are lying on your death bed, and you are focusing on seeing Ramtha at the dark (rather than
the light) , I hope you remember all the people you walked on to get where you are.
And I hope the true love that embodies us all shows you true grace and love
when you were such an arrogant SOB to other people.
Better late than never. :roll:
Another Dimension60
Posts: 291
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:28 pm

Unread post by Another Dimension60 »

Thank you Sara for participating here. And WakeUp - what an EXCELLENT description of the Ramster process - It should be a "topic" itself so that it stands out - and hopefully Ramsters and those interested in Ramtha can see it and perhaps recognize that process in themselves. You so aptly make the point - it's not the information that JZ as Ramtha presents - it's the process of what happens to us - or as Joe S. points out, the behavior - of "the Teacher" and consequent behavior of the "students".
Sara's story reinforces that, for the most part, it is people who are sincerely interested in the Spiritual/Sacred of Life that get baited and hooked into JZland. Simultaneously, your story points out that narcissistic personalities are also drawn into JZ's orb which feeds them.
As frequently suggested here - google Derren Brown videos to see how easily we humans can be manipulated.
sara
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:28 pm
Location: UK

Unread post by sara »

Thank you, Wake-up, Tree and Another Dimension for your replies, and thank you, Tree, for your understanding - interestingly, it was a therapist who said to me, when I was leaving my partner and her kids, "You have a deep bond with the children" and who recognised that. I loved the power I sensed in the words, "Don't be human; be God"; the power to take charge of my thoughts and feelings; but as a therapist, I know there's also a place for acknowledging and feeling human emotions - fully feeling them, not necessarily for years, but for long enough to know and understand them - and when they're fully felt, then they can pass on out. I know that people can get stuck in recycling feelings - that's not what I'm talking about. There's a place for walking out of an experience, like walking out of a field, there's a place for choosing how you want to feel that day - and there's also a place for allowing your emotions and learning from them. As far as I understand it, I think we are "meant" to be God AND to be human - what's the point of being here unless we touch, taste, feel... maybe being a master - I hope I can still use this word, RSE can't have the monopoly on it! - or being fully human is not about dismissing emotions but being able to feel deeply and also remain in charge of oneself; to be able to feel and to choose how and when to express those feelings, to fully feel them until they are complete, without being afraid of them - what do you think?

Wake-up - the honeymoon time with RSE is long over, but yes, I am still questioning everything that I associated with the teaching. I've read the posts that discuss other sources for the teachings, and yes, there is little I learned in the school that I couldn't have got elsewhere - and have found elsewhere - I know. Maybe I was saved from thinking that RSE was the only, or the best way, because I did have other understandings from elsewhere. I loved the energy of C&E, but found very soon after the beginners' retreat that everything you are supposed to do via, and after C&E breathing, you can do just as well in a more gentle way. The RSE disciplines seemed a very active, dynamic, "masculine" (as in masculine/feminine, yang/yin, active/receptive) approach, and my other work was all about effortlessness, a much more "divine feminine" way of allowing rather than "creating" in such a forceful way- in fact, the RSE way was too forceful and not a good idea when combined with my own work - I've gradually learned about the power of gentleness. However, this is getting a little off-topic, I think, so I'll write more about this elsewhere. To carry on along the "hooked by good stuff" thread - my RSE friend did tell me that the Italian retreat would be nothing like Yelm, that it would be much gentler and easier. She told me a lot about her experiences in Yelm, and I actually wanted to go there - I think I understood how tough it would be, but that in itself sounded very powerful. I guess it was the way she understood and explained it to me. I wanted to do the Tank; I thought it would probably be incredibly tough but I thought it would be amazing if I could do it. It was amazing to feel as powerful as I did when the RSE disciplines "worked". In Italy, I could see the point of starting every session dancing to loud music. RSE teachers aren't the only ones to talk about law of attraction,and it made perfect sense to me when they said that if you're feeling low or depressed, you attract more depression, but when you find a feeling of joy and freedom in the dance, the universe sends you more reasons to be joyful. That principle actually worked for me, although I can see now that I could have got it anywhere, not just from RSE. I went there with a heavy heart - I've mentioned leaving a relationship and kids - and it would have been so easy just to be sad (now I think, maybe I needed to be, to be feel it a little longer?), and to not want to dance or to do the disciplines, or to spend time with my roommates and other people oin the evenings, but in the evenings I would tell myself to get out there and go for a drink with my roommates, "because that's what people do in the evenings, Sara - I told myself - and you're going to enjoy getting to know people - and I did enjoy it, maybe feeling sad for most of the evening but ignoring it and genuinely enjoying people's company - and a few times having the most amazing times dancing with others on the terrace and hillside. And in the mornings I would make myself get up and dance and did break through to that feeling of joy, and I would say to myself, "You're going to sit up straight, Sara, and you're going to do your disciplines as you've been taught" - and one day, it took maybe half an hour, but while doing C&E (I think it was"), I also broke through to that sheer joy and light-heartedness; and then I "saw" JZR's face in my mind's eye, and "heard" her/his voice saying, "Did you really think I would let you go?" - what was that?! I thought it was "Ramtha" - maybe it was a creation of my own, or my own self or "higher self" appearing to me as "Ramtha"? I thought I did have a connection with a being called "Ramtha" - and maybe I did. What I know for sure is that whatever I saw/felt/experienced in the early days (for me) and the early videos, was nothing to do with the JZR I saw in later videos - more about this in the "red flags" section. One more thing that was good from that "honeymoon time" in Italy - my experience of the teachers, or one on particular I think he was called Joe? I talked with him for a while asking about a particular discipline and how to do it, and he listened with warmth and gave me some very sound answers - nothing that isn't taught in many other places apart from RSE, I know, but my experience of him was positive - and of the others, although it was less personal. However, there were enough red flags by the end of the retreat for me to think twice about continuing - although I did continue watching DVDs with my friend and her sister and doing the disciplines as I'd been taught for a good year, then in a gentler way for several more years - even taught my own way for three years, and had some contact with RSE legal team through that! but that's a subject for another post. So it's actually a bigger loss, or a shake-up at least, than I thought, to be questioning so much - more to follow. Thank you for following me as I'm writing! Sara
sara
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:28 pm
Location: UK

Unread post by sara »

As another example,
I knew a couple who had their house flooded up to the 5 foot mark in their house in McKenna.
They were told by every student that they encountered that "this was a blessing in disguise."
I will never forget the words of a fellow RSE student who happened to be a psychologist.
They said: "Having your house torn down is one of THEE most stressful things a person could have happen
in their life. They still need to process those feelings." Yet, when they were guided through this process
of loss, they were still told "It was for the better."


What a powerful story, Tree.

As a therapist, I know about "life crisis" and helping people through it - and you NEVER say to people "this is for the better"! That's something that people themselves may say, a year or more later - you don't say it to them, as their therapist, or even as a friend - and certainly not at the time. It's true that sometimes people look back - often years later - and say, "now I know why that happened", or even, "that was the best thing that ever happened to me", but they are the ones to decide that! you are there to support them through the difficult time; when they have to some extent felt and processed the emotions, you might as a therapist support them when they are looking for meaning or purpose in the situation. You might ask them what they're being challenged to find in themselves to deal with the situation;at a later stage, you could ask, "how are you different as a result of what happened?". But when they're in the stage of not finding any meaning or purpose in it, you're there to sit with them in the meaninglessness, not trying to find an answer - then if an answer comes, it will come from, out of, the experience of meaninglessness, not imposed from the outside, and it will be their answer, coming from them.

RSE seems to bypass this whole process! It's much easier to do so by telling people - "This is for the better!" Then you don't have to give of yourself by listening to how they feel. And maybe it's easier for people too, or for some, to push the feelings away by telling yourself, "this is for the best" and never fully feeling them. With enough focus, maybe you can do it. Or maybe you can do it when what has happened is relatively minor? My own experience is that you can walk out of (my expression, not RSE's!) some feelings, but others need to be felt, for a while at least - or they just come back at a later date! How many RSE students have just suppressed or repressed their feelings emotions - and what happens to them when they can't do so any more? I hope that they will find their way here, and to other people who can help them to feel what they need to.
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G2G
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Unread post by G2G »

Backing up to Sara's post a few back - in Italy - you actually had -EVENINGS- to have drinks? :lol:

Yelm doesn't have "evenings." The events last far into the night, and you're awakened early, in the dark, to go out and grid then do "the walk" or field work. Before breakfast.

Abusive indeed!!!

I just love how RSE disguises itself in their 'events across the world.' I'd been to one outside of Yelm with a family member, and it was cake! Yes, comfy beds in posh hotel rooms, evening dinners in restaurants, actual CHAIRS in the room. What a surprise when these people go to a Yelm event!
8) 8) 8)
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972
sara
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:28 pm
Location: UK

evenings!

Unread post by sara »

Yes, G2G, it was a whole different story in Italy, and I knew that - we actually had beds, and time to sleep in them (though two of us slept out on the hillside a couple of nights - it was beautiful!). I remember hearing all the stories about Yelm, from my friend and others, and actually being seduced by the idea that Yelm was "the real thing", not just the soft option. I thought I could see the point of getting through physical difficulties, though some of it seemed so strange (eg. wearing diapers in the Tank! that somehow my mind wouldn't compute it, I somehow accepted the idea without thinking about it very much. Now it just seems abusive - and I wonder at how close I got to going out there and accepting it all. I didn't know about the two groups of people running across the field towards each other and getting injured, including kids and older people. If I'd known about that, I think that would have been a big enough red flag that I would have said no to RSE right there and then - or would I? It seems that RSE is tapping into the idea of overcoming physical limitations, but that can so easily slip into abuse...
sara
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:28 pm
Location: UK

Unread post by sara »

In fact we did have at least one evening teaching session that went on far into the night - maybe the last few nights? I just walked out of one after about 4 hours because I'd started to hear things in the teaching - it was a DVD - that sounded like personal bias, not God-like or even master-like - more about that in a "red flag" post. No-one attempted to stop me walking out or even mentioned it - very different from what I've heard of Yelm...
sara
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:28 pm
Location: UK

Unread post by sara »

Maybe it wasn't 4 hours - only 3? Anyone who was there will correct me. We didn't have chairs in the hall - but there was plenty of space!
tree
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Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 12:31 am

Unread post by tree »

How many RSE students have just suppressed or repressed their feelings emotions -

EVERYONE of them, I tell you.
no one "processes" stuff, nor sees a shrink
or any kind of help.
They wish it away with "focus".
And if you don't focus enough,
you will leave the teachings,
or die
under the guise of not
"focusing hard or long enough"
tree
Posts: 974
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 12:31 am

Unread post by tree »

The RSE disciplines seemed a very active, dynamic, "masculine
we were always taught that being ACTIVE was less passive than just "meditating aimlessly"
tree
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Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 12:31 am

Unread post by tree »

I just love how RSE disguises itself in their 'events across the world.' I'd been to one outside of Yelm with a family member, and it was cake! Yes, comfy beds in posh hotel rooms, evening dinners in restaurants, actual CHAIRS in the room. What a surprise when these people go to a Yelm event!
the bummer of it all thought, G2G,
is that the teachings entice the more challenging, primitive, showers-outside, pee-in-the-woods
conditions.
the teachings MAKE you want to come to yelm in these primitive conditions
to "pave the way"
for those who are to follow.


uh,...yeah right.

and yes, I believed it at one time.
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G2G
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Unread post by G2G »

You're so right, Tree. "Overcome thy body!" Whatever they teach, our body is "our temple." Our body IS important. Whatever the reasons, to learn, for our soul to learn and/or evolve - the body IS important. TOUCH is important. All of our human feelings ARE important. We ARE human, as are you, JZ! :wink: Yet while jzrk's students slush and slide blindfolded through the mud, sit in the freezing snow before dawn, and now watch endless loops of the same videos, where be JZ? In her cozy mansion (possibly chasing after her free-flying dove with a bucket to catch the droppings!)

People are better off spending their time taking a survival course without jzrk's fantasy inserted. I'm feeling hungry - oh, no, don't eat! You are more than your body" would be an RSE response. Well, I think I'll have some chocolate. I share my chocolate, too. (Another thing jzrk certainly doesn't teach).
8) 8) 8)
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972
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