Heartbroken after involvement with an Ramtha devotee

[ponysong]

Good day, everyone!

I would like to introduce myself and say thanks to the moderators and everybody for creating this space to share our knowledge and experience with RSE.

I'm here because of a very recent brief experience of a romance with someone who is a current (and very long-term) RSE student. For the record, I'm a woman and the student I was involved with is a man. I'm won't mention actual names at the moment (although I know it's practically impossible to remain truly anonymous on the internet).

This man is a wonderful person and it breaks my heart but I decided just a few days ago that the relationship could not continue. It had become impossible for me to have a conversation with him because of his constant references to JZ/R apocalyptic prophesies. We agreed that there was no solution - neither of us wanted to have a relationship where there was a subject off-limits for discussion, nor did we want to be in constant conflict. So really it was a mutual decision.

I had seen the red flags of this cult for a few months before but I tried to put it out of my mind because I wanted so much for the relationship to continue. But my sweetheart continued to bombard me with doomsday prophecies and conspiracy theories which made it impossible for me to ignore the situation any longer.

As soon as I took the trouble to really investigate the situation it became clear to me that the person I had come to love was in thrall to a narcissistic manipulative abuser (JZ Knight) and that the so-called School was truly a cult.

This my red flag detector had been telling me for some time, but I had disabled that instrument and decided to suspend judgment temporarily. Even so, my BS or "red flag" detector was quite finely tuned (due to my personal history) and would not allow me to ignore the warning signs any more; the signal became deafening.

Immediately after this year's March/April 10-day retreat where JZ/R "channeled" for 17 hours straight, my loved one came out of that retreat in a panic, convinced that I would die in the coming global cataclysm with magnitude 10.0 earthquakes and a 1000-ft tsunami (I don't live within Ramtha's 20-mile protected zone).

So the BS detector has been screaming at me for almost 2 months now.

I've never been a member of a cult, except that I have been, in a way.

Beginning in 2003, for 3 years, I was miserably unhappy in a relationship with a manipulative narcissist, and it was very difficult to escape. The first (and most difficult, in my experience)step was to put the correct name on what was happening - in my case I was able to put the name on it after one session with a good counselor and the name was "emotional abuse". There the value of the internet became evident when a Google search for those terms "emotional abuse" led me directly to the definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder which painted an exact portrait of my abuser.

Even so it took me more than a year after that realization to break away from the "cult of one" as I had learned to think of that relationship.

I've been reading Joe Sz's website and he describes me exactly in that phase of my life:

One neurotic woman might experience a high level of charisma with a narcissistic man that everyone else finds obnoxious.

So, 4 years after ending that abusive relationship I was ready to try again and this is the result.

I'm heartbroken and at the same time relieved. And I want to learn from this. I want to accept and move on. I want to be the most loving person I can be.

Thanks for reading.

[joe sz]

ponysong
welcome to the discussion!

if you have not come across this,
one good book that has helped a number of former members is
Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Lalich and Tobias
http://www.amazon.com/Take-Back-Your-Li ... 363&sr=1-1

I gave that book to a colleague who was "gas lighted" for a year in a one-one relationship---that person said the book applied to "80%" of what happened to him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

[Ockham]

Hi Ponysong,

Thanks so much for writing. I feel you have a good head on your shoulders and enlightmened mind, in the real sense, not in the RSE sense. I feel confident that that you'll ultimately find a caring soul mate who will love you for what you are, and not what he can get from playing upon your emotions.

Some of my friends have become hooked on the RSE bandwagon, and there really isn't any way for us to get them off the bandwagon. That is a decision they have to make for themselves. You did the right thing. There's no way you can have a complete relationship if the RSE taboo thing is always wedging itself in the middle of everything the two of you do. I've tried to have a rational discussion and ask questions about the RSE, "teachings," and I get stonewalled. They've drunk the Kool-Aid that they aren't allowed to so much as talk about anything from RSE. They seem to think Ramtha will smite them or something for trying to deliver the devine hooey that only Ramtha himself supposedly can deliver. It is a case of the Emporer's New Clothes tale where the ramsters can't see what is shockingly obvious to outsiders - for instance, they think the vulgar Youtube video about solidarity with the Arab Spring revolutionaries is devine blessings from Ramtha. To the rest of us, it is an old almost falling down drunk lady with over-done plastic surgury with a bad fake accent.

Ponysong, you did the right thing. There's no way you can convert a ramster. You really can't have a truly deep relationship with that damn RSE hooey always in the middle. A truly loving relationship is two souls that live as one. There is no way you can have that with the ramster and his proprietary information, so you'll always be denied true love in that realationship.

Perhaps you can still be friends. I've been able to reconcile some differences with the ramsters I know, but there is always that distnace that the RSE mind control imposes. I will be there for them if they ever do change their beliefs and need somebody for support as they reorganize their post RSE lives.

Blessings to you, and may life ultimately bring you what you need and what you deserve.

[ex]

welcome. it definitely is this mens loss. names r not necessary even so rse students feel as superior individuals they have very similar world views.

[ponysong]

Thanks, Joe!

I gave that book to a colleague who was "gas lighted" for a year in a one-one relationship---that person said the book applied to "80%" of what happened to him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

Ah, yes, gaslighting, one of my NPD former partner's favorite pastimes!

And it's a fairly good description of the JZ/R bait-and-switch with the never-ending, never-come-true, always-renewed doomsday predictions.

I tried to explain gaslighting to my RSE friend but it seemed to fall on deaf ears. I wasn't even talking about JZ/R at the time, it was before I knew anything about RSE. I was just trying to describe to him a little bit about my past relationship.

Knowing what I do now, I'm guessing it was his cognitive dissonance tuning me out. Cult mind doesn't register it if it might shed light on that darkness.

And I'll look for a copy of the book. I'm sure I have a lot to learn from it.

[ponysong]

Ockham, thanks!

They've drunk the Kool-Aid that they aren't allowed to so much as talk about anything from RSE. They seem to think Ramtha will smite them or something for trying to deliver the devine hooey that only Ramtha himself supposedly can deliver.

I laugh! I told my RSE friend last week (our second-last conversation) that his flavor of Kool-aid was too foul for me!

Then in our last conversation he reminded me that "we're all Kool-aid drinkers, one way or another". Another piece of RSE dogma, no doubt.

Perhaps you can still be friends. I've been able to reconcile some differences with the ramsters I know, but there is always that distnace that the RSE mind control imposes. I will be there for them if they ever do change their beliefs and need somebody for support as they reorganize their post RSE lives.

This is exactly what I think. I'll be here for him if he wants help getting out. And I'll be educating myself in the meantime, for my own sake; and if he reaches out for my help - so be it!

It's OK I'm not worried about copyright or trademark violation - I stole it from Jean-Luc Picard, anyway, not Ramtha. :)

ex: thanks for greeting me, too!

[ponysong]

and ex, you wrote:

it definitely is this mens loss

Thank you, and I know it's true - because this man really does have a heart and he is just as sad as I am about it.

It's the hardest part of this whole mess for me, to know that it hurts him too and there's nothing either one of us can do about it.

I'm so so sad because, even though I think he might want to get out, from some things he said sometimes, he can't leave. He's tied to the Yelm area due to a family obligation that he simply cannot abandon. And many, many years of involvement in the cult (more than 20 years as I understand it), all his friends, employment, all revolve around RSE.

[Ockham]

Hello,

I have to admit, the RSE addiiction leaves me scratching my head at times. Just how much of the doomsday scenarios that never come true does it take to see though the charade? (rhetorical question) The stuff about UFOs flying out of Mt. Fuji to sink Japan because it has nuclear power plants is like something from a 1950s B movie. What's next, Godzilla? It is hard to believe that ramsters sit there with a straight face and furiously take notes on that kind of stuff.

JZ Knight's demographic cuts across a pretty broad range of ethnic and cultural varieties, so just about anybody can be hooked. I think Joe S. could do a lot better than I at explaining the pheonomenon, but I feel there must be at least a little cult-susceptable personality type. I took a look at the Ramtha cult because I knew people that liked it, and read the Ramtha (white book) text, and said, "This just isn't for me." Many years ago, I was propositioned by Scientologists and was curious enough to go to the intro session and walked out after they had wasted my time for an hour with their version of the Myers-Briggs personality inventory; never did get my score, wonder how I did?

I feel bad for your boyfriend, Ponysong, becuase RSE will try to string him along until he runs out of money. Some people are able to integrate RSE and keep their jobs and familiy lives, but others become so obsessed they see only the RSE and become dysfunctional. Once RSE has tapped students out with the over-priced sessions at the ranch, RSE now has Internet content so they can suck off $50 or $200 dollars at a time as long as students can still afford a computer and Internet conneciton. JZ/R encouraged ramsters to cash out their 401Ks or to stop contributing and take out loans - the theory that social order is going to collapse so they don't need to worry about their retirement funds. Not only will those people have blown their savings on RSE, but they will have much less security when they retire.

[joe sz]

Godzilla appeared after WW2 as mythic adaptation of Japanese to ever present threat from nuclear energy and danger from "out there" in ocean. The popularity of freak creature films with Godzilla morphing from killer to protector in some shows demonstrates how the Japanese psyche has coped with Western powers over time. The 1998 US version of Godzilla taps same fears as Americans are also vulnerable to abominable attack since cold war.

I think JZ is a lot like Eliz Prophet and other channelers who reflect a more Protestant and fundamentalist Christian zeitgeist about "endtimes". JZ like Prophet projects a mythic doom onto world and offers means to beat it to avoid facing a personal mortality. Prophet taught ascension is possible in this lifetime before death before JZ and so many others I won't mention here. Followers truly believe they could/can beat the grave with her by using cult techniques like decrees, C&E, diet, focussed attitude, etc. Ascension new age style is a variation of the rapture thing that appeared in late 19th century among apocalyptic sects in Christianity. The rapture or general ascension idea was not an issue after the entire first generation of Christians passed from this earth as corpses. Ascension became "mythic" in its true Gospel sense by the second century for Christianity---only insecure, grandiose fundamentalists like Camping, Prophet and JZ would even entertain something like not dying normally like the the rest of us shlubs. Many early Gnostics in the 2nd-4rth Century solved or rationalized this death reality by declaring the "body" and physical reality to be an illusion, thus when one achieves "gnosis" one is already "ascended" spiritually despite yet being "trapped" in corporeal form.

anyone who is insecure about dying or living can be hoodwinked into a movement like CUT or RSE---that covers a wide swathe of folk...

[Another Dimension60]

interesting and informative, Joe....
and, I'd add, ANYONE can be brainwashed/manipulated - even Ockam. JZ Inc's methods are (or results) are no different than the media, or corporate marketing. .... Without even listing what have been labeled "conspiracy" theories, Wikileaks has amply pointed out how much Americans have been duped; and, I suspect, Ockham, you have more than 2 or 3 outfits of clothes, probably have an electronic gizmo that you carry around, probably a relatively new computer, and a moving van full of other 'things' ... and you may even be a Walmart shopper.

Endtimes and ascension were not major themes or 'carrots' when many, including myself, became 'hooked' into ramtha.

[Ockham]

Hello,

Thank you Another Dimension60. No, I'm not suggesting I'm immune from being nabbed by a cult. Far be it from that. I was trying to point out that I was willing to listen to the Scientologists (who woundn't say who, they were, but I was able to figure it out) and also willing to look at the Ramtha gig. Once your foot is in a given cult's door, it is much easier for them to drag you the rest of the way in.

I've written here before that anybody can be seduced by a cult and group think. That anybody includes myself, no questions asked. I was trying to point out that I feel lucky to have escaped their clutches; (poor wording too late in the evening posting). In some ways, I think the more, "intellectual," you think you are, the more easy a mark you are for cult manipulation. You can see that Knight exploits both narciscism and fear of uncertain death in the so-called students. Virtually all Knight's Ramtha character stories are about mortal events that are beyond our control: comets, UFOs, earthquakes, volcanos. She doesn't bother addressing untimely death from not wearing a helmet if you ride a motorcyle or keeping a loaded gun in your house - too easily understood, mitigated and not interesting enough.

[Vanilla]

A Ramster having a relationship with someone on the outside?? Wow.

[ponysong]

Thanks guys, interesting stuff.

I have a couple of questions now.

1. Can anybody tell me where in RSE the idea of ascension comes in?

I hadn't heard that - I thought all the doomsday predictions were directed at surviving TDTC in preparation for the new age on earth where the tyrants will be defeated etc etc etc blah blah blah.

2. One of the comebacks my RSE BF would spout at me whenever I challenged anything about JZ/R would be to claim he personally had heard the "big guy" say (just before Sept 11, 2001) that: "planes are going to crash in NY City, Washington, and Pennsylvania".

Does anybody know when and how this hallucination was projected onto the RSE faithful? Do most current Ramsters have this "memory"? I have not been able to find any reference anywhere on the internet to this prediction. But of course it wouldn't be publicized because then the government would suspect JZ/R of having inside information in advance of the 9/11 attacks, right? My guess is that it crept into the JZ/R mythology gradually after the events of 9/11.

Layers upon layers of BS.

[ponysong]

A Ramster having a relationship with someone on the outside?? Wow.

Well, like I said, I think he was having doubts even before he met me, just from some odd things he said that I didn't understand.

Like that he was sick of his friends because they were all stuck in such a rut and they all had the same mindless existence. I replies something like "well just ignore them and make new friends" and his answer was that there wasn't anybody around who was any different.

Yup, he was reaching out for sure, now that I understand things a little better I see that.

[Vanilla]

Ramtha predicts something will happen and something will not happen, so if either happens, he is right.

Its usually the cult people who lie for their guru.

Ramtha has not predicted anything.

I have heard with my own ears, ice age by November ( Last year)..second volcano erupting after the icelandic one erupted, by that winter, never happened, JZ dying in March, never happened, by the end of April ( this year) another earthquake will bury Japan. Next it was June 15th, something bad, next it was June 15th not happening. Now it is a comet coming. Latest.

When you are a student you filter out the stuff that doesnt happen or was wrong. You lie to yourself and others that Ramtha is real.
Your boyfriend is deep in the bs.

You need to tell him.

I had a friend back in Paris call me and tell me its all BS. It stuck in my mind for a few months what he said. I fought it, but in the end it brought me to where I am now.

Just read thru these posts, gather evidence and present it to him, as a question. There are many bad things that happened inthe school, to children, to women, to families, to investors..

Also look thru the classic cult signs, RSE has all of them.

[Ockham]

JZ Knight tries whenever possible not to have the Ramtha character say anything too specific. I never heard of Ramtha back in 2001, but I would imagine the scenario was like this. Some time proceeding the attack, she probably had Ramtha say something like, "In early September there will be a great commotion in the sky and the gray men will go down." A statement like that could mean almost anything from a solar eclipse to the 9-11 disaster. Later after an unfortunate disaster occurs, RSE will issue a press release on its web site saying that a previously uttered vague statement obviously predicted what just happened.

The Ramtha character also says plenty of incorrect stuff that gets swept under the carpet. A good one is what Vanilla said, where JZ Knight was supposedly going to die in March 2011. I think ex post facto Ramtha supposedly cured Knight because she wasn't ready to ascend yet. Ramtha suposedly travels willingly back and forth in time, so why the heck wouldn't Ramtha know in advance that he was going to be fixing Knight's health and not waste everybody's time with the whole bruhaha in the first place. Main reason - cult tactic - scare the dovetees with the leader's impending demise to draw the devotees in and trick them into attending various emergency teachings before they lose their beloved Ramtha channel. JZ Knight was pretty ordinary before Ramtha popped into JZ's kitchen; why couldn't Ramtha just pick another channel when JZ checks out and ascends? Instead, JZ is stuck here on Earth having to channel the big guy when she could be enjoying some time in the Plane of Bliss. If Ramtha is so dang omnipotent, why doesn't Ramtha just appear to the students; why would a channel be needed in the first place?

[Vanilla]

Ramsters tell everyone Ramtha predicted the Japanese Tsunami because 5 years ago he said, something like WATCH THE WINDS FROM JAPAN

[freemysoul]

Hello Ponysong, thank you for your posts and perspective, it is very much appreciated and touched me deeply as I too was involved romantically with an RSE member. I can say that with time, it does get better, and especially with the help I have found here at EMF, life gets back to being wonderful and optimistic.
I was in a serious relationship with a woman I loved greatly. We both had many things in common and fell deeply in love. A couple years into our relationship, a friend of hers introduced us to Ramtha/JZ Knight. I had always admired this friend, for his seeming honesty and what I thought at the time, an interesting perspective on life. For the sake of this post, I will refer to him as Dick. He would come over to our place weekly, sometimes twice weekly for tea and conversation. There wasn't a topic Dick didn't have either an opinion on or a theory of, so conversations were always engrossing if sometimes outrageous. Dick would broach a subject, ask my opinion, and without fail, correct my 'unenlightened' view with some Ramthism he would regurgitate. At the time, I was intrigued, but I was extremely skeptical. Many of the things he would say, were not only outrageous, but contrary to common sense, logic, history, and many times REALITY. Still though, I was mesmerized by his encyclopedic knowledge on almost any topic of conversation, and admired the "wisdom" (what I considered it at the time) and confidence with which Dick seemed to emit. However, I was concerned by the fact that the woman I loved was not only accepting of every line of horseshit this guy was preaching, she began to change, taking on Dick's mannerisms, the 'so be its', the 'you created its', 'blessing everything you put into your body', etc. etc., generally becoming an egocentric asshole, just like Dick. After a couple of years of getting to know Dick and his girlfriend at the time, he called my girlfriend and I saying, that Ramtha/JZ had told all 'his students' to tell all their friends and loved ones that "Ramtha is my teacher." I didn't think much of it at the time, except the typical, "What the hell is a Ramtha?", but my girlfriend was hooked from that day. She immediately got on the internet, as did I and did a search on Ramtha. She called for a cooling off period of our relationship so she could, "sort some things out". We obviously had reached a roadblock in our relationship, as I had serious reservations about this "Dick" friend of hers, along with this Ramtha character, and she had none, she was a true believer from day one. For almost 8 years I held onto the hope that she would see the truth of what RSE is, and accept the fact that JZ Knight is a scoundrel pretending to be Ramtha to no avail. I desperately wanted our relationship to work, and went to a beginners retreat, where I found my cards. As with alot of people, this was enough 'proof' for me, that there might be something here so, I became current, and stayed in school, more to try and salvage my relationship than to be a part of RSE, to no avail. The more indoctrinated she became, the more I became the 'typical male', that only wants to 'eat, fuck and conquer' as she so eloquently put it. We broke up so she could "behold the God inside her", and I was devastated.
I began to practice "Wine ceremonies" religiously , and my life was literally in shambles. I couldn't completely accept the reality of life as it is, and I wouldn't let go completely of my critical thinking as she had. I lived two worlds, two lives for many years after our breakup, convinced that there was truth in what JZ Knight was saying, yet understanding there was also just as much baloney. I had a terrible internal struggle, that still to this day crops up in small ways, that kept me confused, lonely, ashamed, guilty, and angry. I was a complete mess. I didn't know what to do. My mind at times would be in RSE land, thinking I was God, practicing my disciplines, etc. etc., then the next day, my conscience would kick in just long enough to keep me sane. Then, I found EMF . This site literally gave me my life back. After days and days of reading all the similarities between myself and the members here, I began to put the pieces of my life back together. I have come to terms with the idea that a woman I love with all my heart is now a die hard supporter of RSE and JZ Knight, and there isn't anything anyone will ever be able to do to change that fact. That was probably one of the hardest things I had to accept, but once I did, I came to the understanding that I have no desire to be with someone who thinks the way a Ramster does. I didn't have to be 'God' any more, I didn't have to be perfect or berate myself whenever I broke one of the many contradictory teachings that ramsters live by, because I could once again be human. There is such freedom in this. There is even greater freedom in the knowledge that this site holds, and that base of knowledge grows every day, with people just like us sharing their experience and the wisdom we have gained from it. Thanks again Ponysong, and thank you everyone who has posted on EMF, you have helped me, and I am eternally grateful for that.

[ex]

[quote]WATCH THE WINDS FROM JAPAN[/quote]
thats too funny. its this outrages putting things together which makes me think how stupid can someone be. if anybody is concerned and believes this prediction it should be about radioactiv contamination of the air and not the tsunami. the connection between a earthquake in the south pacific and japan is the same. japan is not in the south pacific. for a big being ramthas timing is just off. jz should know that right timing is essential. there is so much manure coming from the ranch that she will be soon on the poor me trip.

[Ockham]

Here's one that really creeped me out.

I just heard a pop song on the local college radio staiton, and recognized it as one that was played as backround music during the breaks in the RSE 17 hour Internet stream that I heard playing on a freind's computer.

The song is The High Road by Broken Bells.

To avoid copyright infringement, I don't want to post the lyricss to the song here, but you can easily look up them up on your favorite Internet search engine. If you listen casually it sounds like it fits Kinght's doomsday message. That certainly gave me the creeps.

[Vanilla]

I wonder if the band knows their song was played repeatedly to a DARK CHANNEL'S 17 hour gloom and doom fest. It was so scary my god. For 17 hours noone moved from their places in front of the tvs. Horrible scenes of whats coming, "By the end of April" this is it guys, the end is here.

[ponysong]

I wonder if the band knows their song was played repeatedly to a DARK CHANNEL'S 17 hour gloom and doom fest. It was so scary my god. For 17 hours noone moved from their places in front of the tvs. Horrible scenes of whats coming, "By the end of April" this is it guys, the end is here.

I wonder if the band are Ramsters?

Here's their video for that song (there's a UFO near the beginning):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWBG1j_flrg

And on their website, here:

http://www.brokenbells.com/home.html

When you click on the left side of that page, on the small image with the pink globe in it, there's an animation of that pink globe opening and some things come out - one thing looks like a volcano with a pink globe coming out the top.

UGH now I'm seeing JZK contamination everywhere. But I'm sure it's just a phase I'm going through. I'll get over it.

[ponysong]

freemysoul,

Thank you so much for sharing your story with me! It really touches me and I'm so glad for you that you are out of the cult now.

The pain of lost love is one of the sharpest emotional wounds in my experience. I have found the best remedy is to take care of myself and my health, to pursue the things that matter to me, and to turn to my family and those friends who truly love me.

[ponysong]

When you click on the left side of that page, on the small image with the pink globe in it, there's an animation of that pink globe opening and some things come out - one thing looks like a volcano with a pink globe coming out the top.

Sorry, first click on the button marked "video" then click on the small image with the pink globe in it.

[Vanilla]

I like how people at the end of an event they go up to the bulletin board that says what each song played was and they all write down the song and who sung, then go out and buy the cd in the quantum cafe with their credit cards. Songs for everything c&e, focus, bluebody..

[ponysong]

I like how people at the end of an event they go up to the bulletin board that says what each song played was and they all write down the song and who sung, then go out and buy the cd in the quantum cafe with their credit cards. Songs for everything c&e, focus, bluebody..

I wonder if people will pay extra for the songs that were playing while "Ramtha" was puking?

[naturegirl]

I am an ex JZ/R student and I remember back in 2000 when JZ/R said the end of the world was coming on May 5th. Well, nothing happen and I begin to do some real soul searching and shortly afterwards, I left that school and never returned. Honestly, many of us left and never returned. Best decision, I ever made.

I no longer associated with any one in that school because honestly it is impossible. They feel if you are not in the school then something is wrong with you. They are so brainwash – it is sad.

The saddest thing of all is why Ramtha’s people would think that the Creator of this universal would create billions of people in the world and that the only safe place in the world to be is Yelm. This is complete brainwashing and these people live in fear and they have stop living, they are completely controlled.

This school is a cult!!!!

[Vanilla]

Guys my friend said that all the people that moved here from Japan, 90% of them hate it here. She is helping with apartments here. Lots of students donating rooms. But Ramtha says its the only safe place. So they stay here.

[Robair]

Hello Vanilla
Thank you for report.
Do we know how many of them moved from Japan to Yelm
someone mentioned 75 but that was at the begenning of all the excitement.