validity "lures" and "hooks"

[Another Dimension60]

As I was writing my multi response, I had a new perception ? a distinction between that which ?lures? into JZ?s world, and that which ?hooks? us once we?re there.
One of the primary ?lures? for me into JZs world/Ramtha was the apparent validity to me of what was being said by ?Ramtha? ? I was introduced by a friend via audio cassette tapes from 1984 or so. By 1989 everything taught by Ramtha was in complete opposition to everything previously taught. Even though more than once ? at each Dialogue and Intensive I attended (about two a year), Ramtha proclaimed ? in response to the wonderment of technology that could record the event - that his words would still be true a hundred years from now. Nevertheless, the ?White Book? ? based on the Ramtha material of the late ?70s and early 80?s is still being used to promote/lure people into ?The School?.
The trick with ?valid? is that there is, to me, ?valid? information ? throughout the years of Ramtha. Along with a whole lot of crap. Even Ruprecht?s passionate letter to his ?Ramster? Mother presents arguments I could argue with ? those regarding ?content? of the ?teachings?.
Joe Szimhart?s post quoting someone referred to the ?abuse of time, identity, intellect, finances, health and integrity while in the group?. To me, that?s where the ?issue?/concern lies ? i.e. in the abuse physically mentally spiritually of the participants.
Perhaps it is a ?lesson? on the universal human you gotta learn list ? you can?t convince the convinced.
As there were a multiplicity of factors, imo, that lured us and got us ?hooked? into JZs world, there are a multiplicity of factors that awakened us out?. Even after over a decade of ?outness?, I recognize and appreciate more than ever the Love of People in my world that ?allowed? me my journey. Ultimately some Truth within us lifted us out ? and it was the love song sung by our Loved Ones that helped awaken that Truth in us. What I would say to Calif Dreaming --When you can sincerely thank your family for their continued love, through the battles and upsets, your healing will be recognizable.
Information and arguments may be helpful. It may be information that lures us into JZs world, and our thinking becomes illogical and deaf to arguments. For some the ?lure? is the promise of psychic powers, or power over death, or spiritual ?Truth? or scientific ?proof?, or ?enlightenment? or whatever ?valid? information ? What is it though that ?hooks? otherwise intelligent, perceptive, conscious people.? ? The ?hook? is something beyond information, and rational arguments.
People like Joe can speak more accurately to that. Brain washing is such a scary term and my resistance to accepting it as fact is enormous. Perhaps our personal ?issues?/patterns allowed the lures to be attractive ? but something beyond our control ?hooked? us.
We who have been through such as JZ?s Ramtha are, in some ways, like people who have been imprisoned for a long time or kidnapped or institutionalized ? we need to give ourselves all the time we need to readjust to another life. Maybe like the person who losses a 100 pounds and suddenly their life is different. We were kidnapped, imprisoned, against our will ? yes we chose initially to go, and then we lost the power of choice ? at least for awhile.

[tree]

We who have been through such as JZ?s Ramtha are, in some ways, like people who have been imprisoned for a long time or kidnapped or institutionalized ? we need to give ourselves all the time we need to readjust to another life.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

A person is NOT the same once having been in this "invisible" prison.
Even though JZR conveniently sais, "you can leave at any time, there are no seat belts here."

Well, the bars are invisible to the naked eye, But very much in place in the brain.

[ordinarymind]

A person is NOT the same once having been in this "invisible" prison.
Even though JZR conveniently sais, "you can leave at any time, there are no seat belts here."

Well, the bars are invisible to the naked eye, But very much in place in the brain.

WOW, well-said Tree . ..I so agree with that. Funny isn't it, how clear that seems now that we are out, but all those years in the school, if anyone had suggested to me I had "prison bars" in my brain, I would have smuggly thought they just didnt' "get it".

I can see some of those bars now, especially in my past choices but also often in my current thinking. Thank God I can see some of them and am now able to make choices that aren't based on surviving TDTC in some God-forsaken bunker underground.

And now, I see some of those same bars in my friends who are still in the school ....see the fear that permeates their thinking and their choices. And I feel helpless to point that out to them. And I feel some fear in talking about this much with them, especially those who might think there is a glimmer of truth in what I am saying, because I am concerned about how they will be if they realize that this has been a ruse all along. Do they have the internal strength to face the void that comes from losing the very foundation upon which they have built their lives for the past 20 years or more? I still struggle with that void myself, as many others have written about here too. It is alot to let go of. . . .BUT it is possible to do so and there is, as EMF would say "Life After RSE".

Well there is lots more to say on this topic, but just wanted to add my voice to this conversation.

[California Dreamin']

Another Dimension, Tree & Ordinary Mind-

Great posts.

Yes, I'm definitely grateful for the space my family gave me when I made it clear to them that I was in RSE for what I believed was the "long haul." I probably would have moved to Yelm if they continued pressuring me to quit the school.

In the beginning, Ramtha's words reflected truth deep within me and my core beliefs began to shift. I felt empowered and had a different perspective on just about everything -- a truly "altered ego" and an altered me.

After I left RSE, I became unable to cope emotionally with situations that I used to be able to put into perspective and handle. Became addicted to red wine. I was on an emotional roller coaster. My self-esteem dropped considerably.

Now that I've found EMF I'm beginning to understand what has happened to me. There's a reason for feeling (at times) like I am going insane.

It's such a relief to be able to begin putting the pieces of my life back together. I didn't realize until June '08 that I had spent all my money and time in a cult . . . .

[joe sz]

Tree: A person is NOT the same once having been in this "invisible" prison.
Even though JZR conveniently says, "you can leave at any time, there are no seat belts here."

Well, the bars are invisible to the naked eye, But very much in place in the brain."

Tree also indicates it helps to "name" or identify what happened before one can heal.


Recovery from a divorce when you were not the "cheater", from a bad business venture with a scammer, or a "wrong" war as a soldier is lot like recovery from a folie a deux [shared delusion] when your "leader" and not you was delusional and deceptive. Deep feelings of both betrayal and stupidity as well as victimization will bother the average person.
This is not like a mental illness but more like acting out the mental/social illness of something or someone else. Whether you are acting or not your brain and the way it works is affected. Old cult feelings and behaviors acquired in the cult life remain as tracks or neuropathways that take time and effort to unrestrict and reroute hopefully with improvements and not merely substitutions or worse ruts--like a drug addiction or another cult.

The word "brainwash" came from a mistranslation in 1951 [by Ed Hunter in his "Brainwashing in China" book] of the Chinese hsi nao -- "cleanse/purify the mind" --- which properly means "thought reform" according to Robert J Lifton.
"It is practically impossible to fight something until it has been given a name," Hunter wrote."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 7UIJ31.DTL

Recovery from RSE will be a lifetime project. Relax into it, make the effort to read and think, have fun with it when you are not crying, grow stronger and prosper. You are not alone.

Joe sz

[journeythroughramthaland]

Hi Joe, How's it goin'?

Hunter's book is excellent reading, especially when viewed through the prism of being a strategicly placed journalist as well as a CIA propaganda operative. In the context of the times, it was important to rally the troops against the "Red Menace" He might have said and added; " It is practically impossible to fight something until it has been given a name, even children know that!"

I would think that we both remember the "duck and cover" drills and theme song.

One example of how it effected me at the time:

I think I was around 7 years old, I was walking to school (wonder if 7 year olds walk to school alone now in N.Y.C.?)

and on the corner was a VERY tall man campaigning for congress. As I walked by looking at how tall he was, he bent down holding pamflets and I almost took one until I saw the word "REPUBLICAN". He asked me "Are your parents Republicans or Democrats?"

I said with pride and know it allness, "Oh, my parents are Democrats, we live in a democracy, they protect it, the Republicans are red!! (Well the name started with RE and it was written in red...)

I will never forget his boisterous belly laugh, he said, "Which way are you headed?" I pointed and said 'To School" about 5 blocks away.

He said, "Let me explain something to you.... " He walked me to school explaining the difference between Democrats and Republicans

Little did I know he would become the Mayor of the city!!! He was a republican who won with the support of the liberal party.

This happened, I don't know, 5-6 years later while he was Mayor, While waiting at a traffic light at the exact same corner we first met, a limo turns the corner and who is in the back seat with the window open? You guessed it! Maybe my mouth was open from seeing him in the exact same spot or the fact that I remembered a man taking the time to "unfill" ones head of propaganda, he pointed to me and waved with recognition!

Moments of time, moments of influence.

[tree]

Now that I've found EMF I'm beginning to understand what has happened to me. There's a reason for feeling (at times) like I am going insane.

I think this point is much more prevalent with former students than we realize.

A person whom I had just been re=acquainted with from RSE had been "non current" for about 3 years when I ran into her this past spring.
After showing her EMF and a few Google videos, she pondered all of this information, taking in what she could, etc.
a few weeks later, in a passing conversation she says to me: " wow. for these past 3 years, I REALLY thought I was going insane.
I didn't feel connected to RSE students, I didn't feel connected to the real world, I felt I was honestly lost."

I just can't imagine how many others are out there, lost, just barely coping and getting by, all in the name of the effects of RSE.
This is where my compassion lies.....

[tree]

Recovery from a divorce when you were not the "cheater", from a bad business venture with a scammer, or a "wrong" war as a soldier is lot like recovery from a folie a deux [shared delusion] when your "leader" and not you was delusional and deceptive.
This is not like a mental illness but more like acting out the mental/social illness of something or someone else. Whether you are acting or not your brain and the way it works is affected. Old cult feelings and behaviors acquired in the cult life remain as tracks or neuropathways that take time and effort to unrestrict and reroute hopefully with improvements and not merely substitutions or worse ruts--like a drug addiction or another cult.

wow.
I cannot say enough about the impact of this statement.
And I often wonder why my brain , and I can FEEL it, clicks in this manner.

Thank you Joe.

[Whatchamacallit]

Very interesting thread.

I think that there is a parallel to the "void" that has been referenced from time to time, that ex-students feel after they leave RSE and also realize that they were misled (intentionally). Not only does that hurt because it was intentional, it hurts because it dashes ones hopes and dreams. For many, it's a sudden shift in realization that leaves a powerfully deep feeling of loneliness, hurt, betrayal, confusion, anxiety, fear, perhaps also peppered with some rightful anger. It can be very intense, in particular, for the first few months. However, over time (which is highly personal, depending on the person, personality, environment, support system, etc), "recovery" does happen, happiness does return, and life does go on; healing takes place, and EARNED trust in humanity returns, joy returns, hope returns...etc.

However, there is a time frame when one feels hopeless and despair, not really believing that there is "life after RSE".

This pattern is very similar to depression. I would say that it mimics an acute case of depression. When in the midst of despair on all levels, one can read what I just wrote and not really BELIEVE that for THEM, a joyful, fulfilled life will return for them. But, it really does. That's where faith comes into play, unfortunately, at a time when one feels least likely to have the capability to maintain and sustain faith. So, trust, another hard feeling to believe in, also comes into play.

I say all of this for the people who will read it, identify with it, and have a glimmer of hope that it could be true.

In RSE, we were dishonestly misled, swindled out of lots of money, and otherwise scammed. We're not to blame for that, RSE is. The first ray of hope, is that when one leaves RSE, despite the emotional turmoil, the first step to FREEDOM to live your OWN life, has been taken. The rest only takes TIME. For some, recovery is complete in months; for some years; for some a lifetime.

Here is an excellent link with descriptive information that will probably lead the reader to moments of, "Ah-hah!"
http://www.kulte.de/studie_e.html

Tragedy and trauma has many faces. Some folks make it through life with very little, some don't. Those of us who have suffered tragedy such as loss of a child, a terrible divorce, or the experience of being in a cult, don't ever FORGET the tragedy, but I absolutely believe that almost all of us can, and will, IN OUR OWN TIME FRAME, move forward toward having fulfilling, happy, hopefully healthy, lives with our loved ones (friends & family). While we may hold a place in our memory, with a band-aid upon it, for the tragedy/trauma, the scar is that - a scar. Not to be minimized, but also not to be victimized by in any way that we carry a banner that we wave for the rest of our lives, identifying ourselves and "Jane Doe, ex-cult member". We are Jane (or John) Doe, stronger DESPITE our tragedy(ies) in life, LIVING our life.

And on that note, I'm off to the grocery store !

Skipping merrily along DESPITE the likes of JZ Knight.