blueheeler posted

blueheeler · Unread post by **blueheeler** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:20 am

I think Aussiegirl is a pseudonym for JZ Knight. Aussiegirl tries to convert other people to her opinion without having any sound evidence to back up her ideas. Aussiegirl has taken down numerous writers on this site.

JZ has connections all over the planet and and many are willling to do her bidding on the assumption it gets them closer to the master. If anyone wants to furnish sound evidence is a genuine writer then I will change my opinion.

Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:32 am

If anyone wants to furnish sound evidence is a genuine writer then I will change my opinion.

Then surely "blueheeler"... it must be equally asked of you to produce so called sound evidence that you are genuine writer also!!!
this is verging on ridiculousness....

Even if aussiegirl was an RSE mole (I do not believe this for one second) then hopefully she will learn something here..
but we have been down this road before blueheeler, and the moderators found these accusations against aussiegirl to be totally unfounded.
aussiegirl has been at the receiving end of some very nasty attacks on EMF that were immediately removed by the moderators.
What you posted is unsubstantiated and divisive. I am sure that some people will now be questioning your sincerity to be posting again on EMF.
There is some irony here ...
There has been several RSE 'infiltrators" posting on EMF, but you did not recognized them! nor...did you have to deal with them.
Everyone has the right to respectfully post their opinions on EMF, just as you are.
Supporters of RSE are welcomed to post on EMF within the guidelines of the "RSE Current Students Debate Forum" thread.

Welcome back blueheeler....voidgate....
But Please, for goodness sake, lets keep the wheels on the EMF wagon.

David

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:14 pm

I think Aussiegirl is a pseudonym for JZ Knight.

this is just plain weird and lauaghable

aussiegirl · Unread post by **aussiegirl** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:41 am

That is so hysterical, oh my god if you guys knew me you would seriously laugh your heads off. We all know who you are blueheeler, I recognized your whining as soon as I saw you start to post.

You are truly delusional.

aussiegirl · Unread post by **aussiegirl** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:16 am

Actually I have a better idea, how about we meet up Blueheeler? I live in Victoria but travel occassionally interstate if you are elsewhere.

Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:13 pm

Actually I have a better idea, how about we meet up Blueheeler? I live in Victoria but travel occasionally interstate if you are elsewhere.

Thank you for your gesture "aussiegirl".

The challenges this situation highlights is that... just because a person has left RSE "physically'
does not necessary mean they are out of the RSE woods?!
Coping with the realization they have been terribly betrayal leaves a person struggling for plain reasoning.
There often arises is a mistrust even of the most innocent of situations, where small conflicts are easily overblown leading to more isolation and confusion. The coming to terms with this utter betrayal will for a time collapse an entire belief system, with a risk of a catastrophic mental breakdown. These are a form of mental landmines much like a Berlin wall of the mind, built brick by brick from the RSE indoctrinations. That?s why ?qualified? counseling, and a support network, is so vitally important in recovery.
But, finding a good counselor/ psychologist who is knowledgeable about Cults and recovery is another major challenge.

David.

blueheeler · Unread post by **blueheeler** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:25 pm

Aussiegirl, You have instigated warfare against numerous writers that was totally uncalled for I consider your mindset is like Knight's and I would not want you in my life in one billion years.

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:32 pm

blueheeler,

good thing it is not blue healer

It is my opinion that you are pretty off base here.
The attacking method you use reminds me of the people in Yelm.
The odd thing is, they cannot SEE that this is what they are doing AT ALL.

I cannot stress this enough.

To add to this,
they cannot see, for the life of them, the indoctrinated fear.
I know this for a fact because my son has seen in the past 6 months,
how indoctrinated by fear his other parent , who is still in RSE, is filled
with fear, yet they think they are not in fear.
It is really weird to watch this from "the outside" having been on the inside.

Now, I am NOT saying you have fear. I have no clue where you stand with this.
But your attacks are very very similar to those still in RSE,
and those who have left, but are a part of OTHER groups like this.
You can't really see the forest through the trees while the tree is
poking you in the behind.

Really, try to take a step back or some pro-active
measures for yourself.
We WILL be able to tell by your posting.

Very sincerely,

Tree

blueheeler · Unread post by **blueheeler** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:37 pm

David, If you don't like what I write feel free to remove all my posts. I am really not interested in participating in a place I am not welcome. If you enjoy Aussiegirl so much as a preference when she has been insulting to numerous people as assumed then by all means make yourself happy and I do what makes me happy.

blueheeler · Unread post by **blueheeler** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:59 pm

Tree I like your name so much. You are right I can't see the forest through the trees. You know why ?

I live in the state of Victoria not far from where bushfires razed towns to the ground. A lot of burnt areas I am very familiar with. I can't see the forest when there is nothing but ash. Smoke is everywhere. Ther fires are far from out. An RSE student I know moved out of the city to a safe place and his house was razed to the ground and the Australian public is paying to get him on his feet again. ( You know the cities are dangerous places to live and the sea levels will rise 200ft, Melbourne is situated on a bay. ) RSE has long forgotten him unless he pays more money for the next lesson as to why he created it.

There were a half dozen students in another threatened town. One I knew well moved out of the city as they wer dangerous places. She took a pay cut cause the money isn't as good in the country. She would never have moved out of the city.

The city won't burn. Too much steel and cement. If you can help me see the trees I will accept any assistance you can give. I love koalas. Their feet are burnt and they eat Eucalyptus viminalis as a preference ( Manna gum ) Thanks for any help you can give.

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:05 am

I am really not interested in participating in a place I am not welcome

you know blue heeler, there was a time OUTWARDLY , I felt like that.
but inside, I kept coming to EMF because
1) it was common ground we could communicate from
2) it was a support group of after affects.

by your above quote, and this is not the first time you have said such,
I know inside, you like to come here, read, occasionally post;
and-you have a very unique and wise way with your words
when you are in a receptive space.
But in a defensive space,
things do not look so rosy, and words come out like they have on here.

I replied above.
And if you feel you are not getting very good support here
I would implore you to seek a counselor or therapist, if you can afford it.
Even though many are not schooled in cults,
they are very schooled in the emotional issues that are common to about 95% of the population.
And if they are very wise, they would do a bit of research about cults and their effects.
I know I provided many many sites, links, books, forums, blogs, etc
to both of my therapists.
The first one was not as receptive as the second one.
I was truly blessed with the second therapist.

No one is asking you to leave.
Just asking you to be civil
and non-combative.

blueheeler · Unread post by **blueheeler** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:24 am

You know what Tree ? I know in Australia they have no idea of a cult, nor its effects on people and therapists are going to approach the topic thinking a person is mentally ill. I already went through that years ago. I found it futile because the therapist could not replace all the money that I needed to make my life happy. There anti depressant pills did not fill up my bank account. Is a great risk to get into a cult in a country that has no cult expert to counsel them because they are going to assess things as mental illness when they have no idea of what cults do. I have encountered numerous people with a variety of brain anomalies/afflictions all directly associated with RSE.

It is a trap for people wanting to come form a foreign country and finding there is no support whatsoever. RSE waltzes into a country and gives them LOVE, leaves with the cash and then they are alone, forgotten as another number that just did not understand the teachings or had such a big altered ego that they just deserved everything they got.

Knight gives some food handouts to people in Yelm and she destroys the futures of others in far away places by her appalling advice.

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:26 am

i just now saw your post before my last post.
I was posting when you were.

I can see your heart going out to those people who have been burned both by RSE
and the bush where you are.
and yes, they would have NEVER moved had it not been for RSE.
and even though the one guy
is being helped by citizens,
you KNOW as an RSE student, he thinks of it as a "manifestation."
I find this totally heart wrenching.
IF he could only open his eyes to the fact
that there are good citizens of the world NOT in RSE.
But he will not see this until he is a good two years out.

And the saddest part is for those who live soooo far away from Yelm
who cannot afford to attend the school,
yet who still believe in the RSE doctrines,
listen to CDs, etc
are still entirely brainwashed.
I think it will go on until their death, esp in their cases.

The people who leave RSE and later SEE, well, that is another story.

And to EACH of them, I implore them to seek professional counseling.
I know people who have been out over ten years
who have either flitted about to other groups
or who are still in the area to behold a badge of courage for whatever reason,
but in either case,
I am with Madeline Tobias here,
EVERYONE who has been indoctrinated to the extents which many of have been
truly need some outside guidance.

I know for me,
I truly touched the second therapist.
I know I provided a way to broaden her horizons
in her professional field.
And she has thanked me numerous times.
But, she has also helped me with the daily,
weekly emotional by-products
that are very similar to others seeking mental health wellness.
I cannot say enough about her.
I only wish the state could employ her down the road
as now there are 2 WA State psychiatrists who now see
RSE and the damage it has done to people.
The state does help in the after care of these people,
but ONLY if they are willing to be pro active in their own wellness.

My heart goes out to your part of the world that is enduring such
survival-wrenching experiences.
We are, after all, still creatures of nature.

I thoroughly have appreciated your worldly way of words here on EMF.
You have somewhat of that "lawyer-istic" way about you.
Maybe this is an area you can pursue in small strides in your recovery.

I know for me,
when I first realized what the hell what going on,
and how uninformed people were about cults,
I wanted every mental health professional to watch at least
4 videos (Madeline Tobias, Margaret Singer, Darren Brown and The Wave)
along with reading Take Back Your Life.
And that would be a minimum.

The only way, I could see after a while , of making an impact
was on a much smaller scale.
AS much as I wanted all the injustices righted,
there is no way a majority of mental health counselors are going to get
that like Scientology is a cult, RSE is a cult, pacts of Mormoms are a cult,
is that some big name in some big industry goes absolutely beserk
and then they are not heard from again,
and then go on some speaking tour for a year to warn people
about cults.
And that has not happened yet.

So for now, we have to settle for making smaller strides
in smaller ways that contribute both to
people's awareness and in one's own recovery.

My little bit has been via the mental health field.
David's has been in providing a forum of information and support.

Everyone has their own little nitch where they can make a difference AND
have a rich life to live AFTER the fact of being in RSE.
I don't think being 100% gung ho into cult recovery and a myriad of other functions
is an "everything in moderation" approach.
Without some kind of balance, I think people can still get swept up
in the after affects of such group.

I hope this has helped.
Tree

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:38 am

I know in Australia they have no idea of a cult, nor its effects on people and therapists are going to approach the topic thinking a person is mentally ill.

I think I touched on this in my previous post.
In countries where cults are not a common topic,
it must be VERY difficult for those
1) who have seen the true reality of RSE, Scientology, etc
2) must be even doubly bad for those who are still locked into the indoctrinations of such groups.

I will ponder on ideas to help here, blueheeler.
I know they must think you are mad (in that mental health Dr, Jekyl way).
Not to mention anyone who has lost, let's say 2-20 years of one's "normal income" prior
to coming into the group and how years later, one is STILL not making what one was
prior to engaging the group. So money is still not a fun topic.

But I will give your situation some great thought tonight and tomorrow.

Just know, that there is someone thinking about you and the
crappy dilemma that RSE can leave students in.
It's enough to make one FEEL like making a special trip to 14507 Yelm Hwy and
doing something really weird. Like making red smoke clouds linger over the ranch
for Valentine's Day or something weird to make them think the end of the world is coming.
Of course, I am not going to waste my time and energy on this
and I know another thread had some misconceptions about people's angry
retaliations of what they had in their mind, not truly anything
they thought they would carry out because of course, one would be thrown in jail
for such things against another person, and no one, having already been ensnared in the mind
of prison bars would ever want to be behind steel reinforced restraints due to some stupidity
and normal reactions to having been victimized by jzfng knight.

Anyway,
I will give this some thought.
I hope you have a really nice day. May the sun shine on you.

:?

aussiegirl · Unread post by **aussiegirl** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:17 am

Blueheeler you seem to have focused on me for some reason when I am the most anti-RSE person on this board. Remember I have no belief in any of it and never had (and never would) my only connection is through my partner (and like most of the world I had never heard of RSE or JZ before I met him). Seeing you obviously live near me why dont you meet me, you would be very surprised as I bear no resemblance to the picture you have painted of me.

Remember my view of JZ is very different to yours, she is just running a business to me, preying on peoples insecurities. A dishonorable business certainly but she clearly has a different moral code to most of us and has no problem hurting people for her own gain.

At the end of the day besides her wealth she has very little, her power is false, any love or friendship she receives is false and she knows that, she would not be a happy person lying in bed alone at night.

You have the ability to be happy though, something she doesn't and that gives you the better life. What horrible thing would JZ say about the tragic bushfires? Would a loving happy person really think that the victims created their reality - of course not. Blueheeler try and ditch the RSE baggage its not worth dragging around with you.

Whatchamacallit · Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:30 am

David, Tree and Aussie,

You've all taken great care to respond to blueheeler. I hope it is appreciated. In private emails, many times, I enjoyed chats with blueheeler. After a while, I felt beaten down because I always supported "moving on" in some fashion. I gave suggestions for finding even the smallest bit of joy and gratitude for what blueheeler did have in her life; a roof over her head, food, a future since she's not already 90 years old. No matter what I said, it was marginalized.

Aussie, you said, "You have the ability to be happy though, something she doesn't and that gives you the better life. What horrible thing would JZ say about the tragic bushfires? Would a loving happy person really think that the victims created their reality - of course not. Blueheeler try and ditch the RSE baggage its not worth dragging around with you."

Within those words, I found something I felt I could respond to on this thread. blueheeler believes that you are JZ in disguise on this forum. Yes, I would agree that at times, you've been a bit rough around the edges, but as many of us, what we WERE when we first came on board here, and what we grew toward, as we worked on our own baggage from RSE related Stuff, has changed for just about everyone. I've said it before and I do believe this; EMF can be far more challenging than Knight's tank or other disciplines. Because finally, we really come home to roost within our own minds. We've left RSE and there's nowhere else to turn but to look in that mirror.

That is, IF we care to look at all.

DESPITE the pain we felt when we left RSE, realizing it wasn't what it was claimed to have been, I agree that we ALL have the ABILITY to be happy. However, I've come to believe that not everyone really wants to be happy. Sometimes, as any therapist can affirm, people get stuck at a point in their life and they won't go past it.

I don't claim to know or understand why it is that some people experience horrible tragedies in their lives; the loss of a young child through illness or accident, terrible abuses, heartbreak in whatever form it occurs, starvation, abuse, neglect, financial devastation, etc. Some people will pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and move on as they heal, eventually finding joy again. Finding that joy doesn't mean that they gain wealth, or certain material things, etc., etc., as those things are not going to "give" happiness. As a matter of fact, a new study was recently released ... and I don't have the citation in front of me ... that found that happiness was primarily gained from personal experiences in life, moreso than from materialistic gain or objects. I found that heartening to know.

Yes, therapy can help a lot. Tree is correct, that human beings are not so complex, really. A good Ph.D. level psychologist or psychiatrist who knows human behavior, can do a lot toward helping people heal. But, in order to release ANGER and such emotions, so that you will ALLOW YOURSELF TO HEAL, there has to be a very core, inner willingness to genuinely WANT to take that first step. Sometimes people fear that letting the anger go, will equate no longer burning the candle of vindication or some such thing. Not so. I know that this is true, because I have been t hrough it, myself.

I don't hold anger toward RSE. Or JZ Knight. I think she is a pathetic human being, but I'm not angry at her. I don't blame her. I think that legally, she should be brought to justice, but I can truly say that calmly and factually NOW. I don't have to disallow myself JOY, in order to ALSO speak the truth about RSE and the fraud that I believe it is.

While I could be mistaken, and while I also am aware of and understand the losses that myself and others like blueheeler have endured, I don't think that she is ready, or willing, to release that anger and move on to a new phase in her life. I say this with the utmost compassion. I have sincerely tried and encouraged her to do so.

Maybe, maybe, maybe...blueheeler will step back and quitely consider that not all of us can be that mistaken about her. Perhaps our advice is worth considering and taking to heart. Maybe we really CAN have a life of joy ALONG WITH a life where we speak out the truth of RSE as we know it to be. It doesn't have to be one or the other. It doesn't have to be that we stoke the fires of our RSE rage, to the exclusion of all else in life that can bring us happiness...and I mean happiness WITHIN. I know blueheeler will say to me, "But you have ...." Yes, I do have blahblahblah. But, my JOY is inside of me. I KNOW what it is to be heartbroken and depressed and feel empty inside. Been there, done that. All of my material blahblahblah did NOTHING to heal me. My JOY is deep within me and I swear it sparkles from the inside out. At times, it takes my breath away. If I can experience that, so can you.

My joy is in SPITE of my RSE past, not dampened because of it.

Best,
Whatcha

Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:26 am

If you don't like anything that was written from this IP address then feel free to take it off.

"blueheeler-voidgate"

Unfortunately...
what the moderators are not free to "take off".... is the hurt you inflict on sincere EMF posters.
You have made this same blunder before when you accused"Tammy faye"...of actually being JZ Knight.
I knew "Tammy" personally, up until then she had been very supportive of EMF.
I have asked you to consider this many times..
Your anger towards JZ Knight is clouding your reasoning, while crippling you ability to help yourself or others recover from RSE...
Let alone tackle any meaningful action to shut RSE down, and call JZ Knight to account in a court of law..
Not having the ability for critical thinking... is a mental illness.
Anyone recruited into RSE eventually will become mentally ill to one degree or another.
It is a form of "Insane Spiritual Narcissism", the worst case being Sociopathy.
it is no shame to seek help, and "we" do need help big time...
And as ?tree? explained, we can all play a small part...and also help educate those?professional? counselors
that are clueless about cult involvement and recovery.

I really hope you take to heart and think about what everyone is trying to convey to you on this board.

David.

Spiritual narcissism - Wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_materialism

Psychopathy - Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:57 pm

You have the ability to be happy though, something she doesn't and that gives you the better life.

I thought this to be very profound and very true.

At the end of the day besides her wealth she has very little, her power is false, any love or friendship she receives is false and she knows that, she would not be a happy person lying in bed alone at night.

I have to comment on this.

While IN the group, I truly thought I was the happiest person alive, had the best, most simplest of lives, I had the best job in the world,
and nothing could be better (other than maybe some fabulous wealth-but that was small potatoes.)

Now that I am out, I can see back very very clearly what a false kind of life it was.

In turn, I can see how current students feel that they are happy.
I can see how they re-set ALL of their priorities for gaining enlightenment and knowledge.
I can see how they say they would never trade anything in the world for where they are at now.

But being out, I can see what a false sense of being they have.
I can see the glazed looks in their eyes,
and if I need more, their constant rhetoric in defending everything that is rambles.
It is utterly amazing to see this for a former member.

In hind sight, after finding out RSE was a cult, the only thing that I found serenity in was the river and the garden.
After a while, and after I figured out the wind was not ramtha, I was able to enjoy the outdoors more.
But other than having the self pride of having built my own house,
everything I had in Yelm was false.
False friends.
False sense of secure, wonderful job (where I was continually hounded by BlueBody for lack of work ethic).
False sense of belonging.
Everything. A dour mask that was pre-made for me, and I stepped right in.

SO, yes, Aussie girl is correct about jz's lack of power, friends, love and being alone.
the difference is, jz does not know it ( a sociopath would not) nor do her followers.
And I pray that they do not go down the most severe of mental health grade their is: the narcissist.
Yelm will end up with half the town of little Hitlers.

aussiegirl · Unread post by **aussiegirl** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:16 pm

On the subject of being happy, the reason it is clear to me that RSE doesn't bring happiness is that there are two adults in my house, myself and my RSE partner. I have a glow of joy in me all the time, yes I get sad or angry at times (I'm human after all) but I always carry a feeling of joy and happiness and love for life. My RSE partner however just talks about how to attain happiness, etc etc, its all talk, he doesn't live it at all.

RSE just seems too hard to me, too many things to try and attain, you are destined to fail and why be so hard on yourself, it supposedly teaches self love but you end up hating yourself because you can't achieve the goals you set for yourself. I am often saying to my partner "take it easy", "relax" "don't be so hard on yourself". He seems so unhappy to me in his pursuits for enlightenment, lwhy not et the next life take care of itself (if there is one) live this one, stop worrying about your body changing from carbon to whatever because the frenquency of the earth is changing, stop worrying about the days to come and stockpiling food, stop worrying about trying to ascend. The whole thing is just exhausting.

Sorry this post is more on topic than off topic but it continues the conversation.

See&E · Unread post by **See&E** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:06 pm

There are many, many gems, words of wisdom, and heart-felt sharing on this thread, and this particular thread, certainly is sharing the essence, the potential benefit of continuing to read and participate on EMF. The pain, the fear, the anger, and the grief of living on the cusp of, or having left the "mecca" for those of us certain that at last we had found the true and living artery of the mystery schools, the living brotherhood romantically spoken of in Masters of the Far East, of the I AM teachings, of "A Dweller on Two Planets" and dozens of other 'classics' of metaphysical spritualism that touched so many of us.

On this weekend in particular, like a memorial day, I always reflect upon those whose lives were indeed lost, as a result of their belief and participation in what seemed to be the answer to their lives (and mine) of seeking, being let, and the whole, "when the student is ready the Master (s) appears" philosophy. Their loss in my life, will be forever forgotten, and my role in introducing them to the Prophets CUT (in CO, CA and MT) and more globally, to the RSE, is something that I am burdened by every day. For some loved friends and family members, we were rejected -- to this day. When certain teachings, decrees, 'pearls of wisdom' or pending days to come dire warnings were spoken from the same "loving" tolerant teachings in the beginning, I used all my conviction, concern, and risked-- and lost, my credibility with dozens upon dozens of close family and friends, in the late 80's, and again later preceeding the y2k. And the nine-eleven, quantum-assay, legacy fear.

My heart also goes out to those who moved, and have had their dreams (too) literally gone up in flames. I have lost homes, land, a loving marriage, a family, career, and cherished friendships, due to this dangerous belief system and organization I had. It resulted in the death of a brother and a best friend, and both might still be alive today, were it not for the inherent potentials of believing in anyone or anything that urges us to move away from family, friends, the city, society, and instead, secretly (occultly) hord food, burrow into the ground, utter hypnotic decrees, blindfold ones self, spend years not living and enjoying the gift of those around us, but for our own 'evoluton' and mastery, leaving them behind.

And having lost all of that, to eventually find this wonderful site, for those that slowly can allow themselves to realize, that our experiences were not really that unique, and that many of us, who have left, have much in common.

I am thankful to have moved on, for many years, but at the same time, realize that the books, tapes, CD's, videos, and 'teachings' from both CUT and RSE are so much 'inextricably combined' (pardon the term) with my former hope, idealistic, search to know and serve God, to understand our true (divine) role in the gift of life.

The only price this site has had, is like whatcha has shared, at times it can be no different than it's own cyber assay, while ridiculous, and totally bizarre attacks become directed at certain posters (including myself) as people, from their own fear and anxiety, believe one is either the 'devil' or affiliated with the same thing we were trying to heal from. Yet, in time, thankfully, these totally false assumptions, faded, and to make a couple new friends has been nice.

While one does move on, whether days, months, or years from the direct or indirect fallout of having spent time and money, and altered ones ability to trust and believe in other things or people-- in the same way, and one endeavors to live life in such a way to experience joy and happiness, at times, one can be haunted by what might have been.

Thank you to each of you who have posted on these many threads, on the old board and this one, with detailed stories. I laughed (until I cried) at times, to discover others experiences and perceptions, were so similar to my own.

While no one can bring back the things lost, I can still hope, that in time, I will again find new friends, and perhaps indeed feel a couple vacancies that were tragically created through the power of prophetic, or 'all knowing' words of someone coming to help us over the ditch.

It seems, in this day and age, there are not always 'do overs' in terms of one's reputation (having been involved with some northwestern 'channeling' cult and/or doomsday followers). I'm inclined to believe that maybe there are indeed many great new friendships we might make, from those that find there way here.

Thanks again for your continued sharing, thoughts, and reflections.

See&E

blueheeler · Unread post by **blueheeler** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:40 pm

Aussigirl, Your post requesting a meeting is respectful so I will meet with you. You might also find out that I am nothing like you or others on this website have thought me to be either.

blueheeler · Unread post by **blueheeler** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:19 am

I am fed up with the endless psychoanalysis of my character and what stage of recovery I might be in. You no idea of who I am because you have never met me. When I tell you something that happened long ago you make the assumption it is the present. You are far off the mark which is the source of the problem right from the beginning.

I have had no evidence whatsoever that someone from RSE is not pulling the wool over David's eyes. They are known to engage in corporate espionage. I find it counterproductive to be on this website. You obviously prefer to use many of my writings. I find it couterproductive to be involved in this site.

blueheeler · Unread post by **blueheeler** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:59 am

David, I have had enough or your character assassinstion against me. You could have furnished me with sound evidence instead of taking a personal vendetta out on me and it would have been the end of it. You think your opinion is supreme and I must conform to it. I do not comply if I do not have satisfactory evidence.

Furthermore I apologized about Tammy Fae and another writer took a swipe at me AFTER the apology and the moderators never removed it. Really great moderating David.

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:08 am

When I tell you something that happened long ago you make the assumption it is the present.

I am trying to think of a way this could be minimized.
Maybe with a short intro: "this happened to me when I first entered the school x amount of years ago,
and x amount of time before I left"

that way we would know 1) how long you were in when said occurrence happend
2) we might be able to tell what you were thinking then and how you might see it now

I think David, you might be generalizing here in stages of recovery, when in fact,
I know , for myself, I sought counseling per the suggestions of Madeline and Joe
and my shear gut feeling (right away I might add) , when in fact, you did not see it as a viable option for yourself at the time,
and I, of course, being a staunch supporter of it as I do not think anyone fully recovers left out
to hang dry. I never once told you that you were in the angry stage after all these years of being out of RSE.

We can, however, see the verbal attacks for ourselves here and can only offer kind words as to what has helped
us as individuals. And as moderators, I guess you can just wipe things off the face of the planet if you so choose.
It's your website and the rules are set forth. People can play or not in this sandbox.

Attitudes are pretty obvious on this forum, as once in a while, a mis-communication can be righted if a person
respectfully asks and disagrees.

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:12 am

and, I must add,
the old adage......

You get more with honey than you do with vinegar.

Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:27 am

See&E posted?

There are many, many gems, words of wisdom, and heart-felt sharing on this thread, and this particular thread, certainly is sharing the essence, the potential benefit of continuing to read and participate on EMF.

Yes..I see this too.. thank you See&E and everyone.

Here is a little more background information that perhaps will help everyone understand
why I am taking a stronger stand on this issue with "blueheelers" post..
Often... I have these late nights trying to wrap my mind around something that is possibly just too slippery to grasp...
even with the best of intentions and words, I will still fall short and the understanding I seek slips through my hands... Nevertheless,
I will give this subject my best effort.......
The poster that ?blueheeler?accused the last time of actually being JZ Knight posting on EMF...! was an innocent EMF supporter.
She posted under the name "Tammy Faye". Her post's were respectful and often humorous. But unfortunately she was forced to reveal her real identity to me just to allay ?voidgate/blueheelers? accusations and concerns. She was a wonderful lady, living in Yelm who was struggling to come to terms with the aftermath of many years attending RSE, and the last thing on earth "or on EMF" she expected or needed, was to be accused of being JZ Knight. I have not heard from ?Tammy? since that time.
It turned my stomach to see this happen on EMF. A direct apology to "Tammy" was not forthcoming from ?voidgate/blueheeler?.
Now here we are for a second round with "blueheeler"... :( and its time to take a good look at what the -*#@!!**-- is going on here..
The emotional distress and fallout inflicted on legitimate EMF posters from Ex RSE members who believe that because they were terribly hurt by JZ Knight/RSE, somehow gives them a free license to lash out with anger and nasty accusations at others on EMF
simply because they voice a different opinion, is in part, what I see being played out here with "blueheelers" post and attitude.
There are also many Ex members who may have left RSE physically, but their hearts and mind are still firmly locked behind those gates. Then there are those that hate JZ Knight, but Love "Ramtha", who also come looking to EMF for support.
When there is respect for an open dialogue on EMF.. all are welcome... even "Ramtha" Lord of the wind....!
But only in the RSE Current Students Debate Forum to be sure...
chuckle.

I think David, you might be generalizing here in stages of recovery.

tree..
On the subject of my "generalizing".....
Do you think I ought to visit a good psychotherapy counselor? If so.. Who would you recommend in the Yelm area?.
Perhaps they will agree to an EMF interview?
I don?t believe the same RSE/Cult? recovery medicine? works for everyone,
and.. as you rightly pointed out before?that certainly goes for EMF, it is not for everyone.
It is my ?opinion? that "blueheelers's" anger towards JZ Knight is clouding her reasoning powers.
So how best can we help her and each other understand what is really going on here?,
while also protecting the integrity of EMF, and our fellow posters from mindless attacks?.
I believe that honesty, factual information and reaching out to help each other
is the greatest tool EMF has to offer in the healing and recovery from the aftermath RSE.
"We" are making a difference, thanks to everyone's efforts and unsung heroes behind the EMF scene.....

but watch out for those "mind mines"..! and RSE triggers..

With that... Goodnight..
I'm off to bed.

David.

joe sz · Unread post by **joe sz** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:23 pm

Since 1987 I have been to Australia over 15 times to help with 'cult' related interventions because there is no one as experienced at exit counseling down under. That goes for many of my colleagues also. Having said that, there are scholars and resources in Australia who have addressed this problem including someone I met, Bruce Nordeck of Consular Services, who attended ICSA conferences.

Considering the Aussie population around 20 million compared to over 300 million in the USA and maybe 20 million more when we include Canadians it is no wonder we have more cult recovery resources. Many of the same groups and gurus tap Aussies also, so per capita there is a similar population harmed by that activity.

Louise Samways is one therapist I met near of Melbourne who wrote this book Dangerous Persuaders I reviewed:
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookre ... uaders.htm

She has helped many people there with recovery issues.

Cult Encounter was a self-published book by Rick Larsen a psychologist in Perth about how he managed to exit his wife, then 44, out of an American cult. I wrote the intro to the book. He's helped many people around his area with information.
http://www.csj.org/rg/rgbooks/rgbk_cultencoun.htm
http://www.spiritualabuse.org/books/secular.html

There are others like Adrian Van Leen, a cult consultant for churches, who approaches this from a Christian view in WA.
http://www.ccgm.org.au/

Beyond that, there is not much else there.

Joe

Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:59 am

Thanks Joe,

Do you also have a list of world wide locations of 'cult' related intervention counselors you can recommend?.

David.

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:31 pm

Do you think I ought to visit a good psychotherapy counselor? If so.. Who would you recommend in the Yelm area?.
Perhaps they will agree to an EMF interview?

David-
I find this quite the odd request.
My opinion to number 1 has nothing to do with what you will actually do. So I see no point in stating
my thoughts.
Regarding if they will do an interview for EMF.....
This was a stunner.
I think it points to an agenda rather than a "Helpful Hints for former RSE members",
so I will not pass on her name.
As I mentioned, the first therapist rather blithely took the case.
Had no further interest in learning about cults and their affects in general.
I found her approach rather uninviting.
The second one was much more down to earth and more Northwest, granola crunching,
earth-friendly kind of person. She still keeps the links I gave her to EMF,
the Madeline Tobias Google videos, etc. You never know when you will run into
another former cult member who might need some direction.

I guess finding the right person to work with is like buying a pair of shoes or
Kinda like choosing a partner for life.
You try the shoe/ person on for a while,
walk around,
run on occasion
and see how the shoes AND your feet wear after
interacting with each other.
If the shoe doesn't fit,
there is always another pair that is more appropriate for you.
One may even choose to go barefoot,
but humans, by their very nature, are herd
animals.
I see no sense in thinking you can go it alone in this world.
Somewhat senseless as well in the Darwinian sense of the world as well.
You'll get eaten alive if left to fend for oneself totally alone.

Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:50 pm

Regarding if they will do an interview for EMF.....
This was a stunner.
I think it points to an agenda rather than a "Helpful Hints for former RSE members",
so I will not pass on her name.

Hi tree,

Can you explain why you would reason such a thing?.

Yes..I do have an agenda....EMF also has an agenda.
If there is a 'cult' related intervention counselor" in this area, then I would very much like to talk to him/her,
and also look into the possibility of a video interview for EMF.
I don't think this is unreasonable thinking or request.
It would be an outreach interview for victims of cult abuse and their families, many of whom do not have the money, trust, or wherewithal to benefit from such a counselor.
I do understand there is a world of difference from receiving "professional" counseling on a "one to one" level..!
than from an educational video interview. Both have there value.
Including...."Helpful Hints for former RSE members".
But...
the video interview would be freely available.

The three most important things in combating destructive Cult's are..
Education, education and education?

David.

joe sz · Unread post by **joe sz** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:50 pm

Maybe it is my diplomatic Libra sun, or nurturing Cancer moon or the aggressive storm chasing Scorpio rising sign [take your pick, they are all the same to me

] but I'd like to help sort out what Tree and David are at odds about here.

Tree's point is well-taken that plugging someone she knows into an EMF "educational" youtube appearance is asking a lot, especially in this charged atmosphere of recovering from the alleged HARM that RSE imposes on members.

David sees opportunity to help others in the 'free market' of the www.

Keep in mind that whoever might agree to address this issue for all to see forever must be secure in what they propose to say and be able to back it up. Also, if this 'therapist' has little experience with cult members in general they might too easily extrapolate the RSE experience as representative.

Education is the key, I agree, but as the word indicates [educare---to draw out or lead to understanding] the foundation of the person whom you interview will determine the value of the 'leading.'

That someone should have more than a noisy rattle but be able to 'Walk softly and carry a big stick.'

joe sz · Unread post by **joe sz** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:18 pm

Do you also have a list of world wide locations of 'cult' related intervention counselors you can recommend?

No list, David. I have contacts all over the globe but I cannot verify how good they may be in any specific situation as counsellors or experts. My suggestion is to go to the usual suspects through organizations like Wellspring, ICSA, Cult Hotline of Jewish Family Services in NYC, etc. and work out from there.

Most of the folks I know in cult recovery agree that there are several goals to guide ex-members
[I just made these up :? :) but they seem to work for me.

1. Stabilize emotional well being
2. Strengthen skeptical skills
3. Re-socialize with a wider fame of reference
4. Engage in productive activity useful to others

Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:54 am

Hi Joe,
Thank you for your feedback..
Hopefully I can map this post through... without it getting convoluted.

I was certainly not asking tree to recommend anything, to anyone, outside of my question to her..
"Do you think I ought to visit a good psychotherapy counselor? If so.. Who would you recommend in the Yelm area?.
Perhaps they will agree to an EMF interview?"
My question was reasonable, and founded in part, to reply to tree's statement that...

I know , for myself, I sought counseling per the suggestions of Madeline and Joe
and my shear gut feeling (right away I might add) , when in fact, you did not see it as a viable option for yourself at the time,

A reasonable question ought not to be undermined by an unreasonable answer, Was not my question reasonable?,
perhaps I am missing something here?.......

Tree's point is well-taken that plugging someone she knows into an EMF "educational" youtube appearance is asking a lot, especially in this charged atmosphere of recovering from the alleged HARM that RSE imposes on members

Like is said, I was certainly not asking tree to recommend anything, to anyone. This is totally up to her discernment.
If a video of this nature was well produced, I would hope she would recommend it to recovering RSE members,
especially because a "Professional psychotherapist experienced in cult' related intervention counseling" is not available near Yelm, at least to my knowledge. If there is, and you are reading this post..I would appreciate very much if you contacted me at: LARSE@ywave.com
Perhaps tree has no confidence in my abilities to video tape such an interview, if so, then I understand her response..

if this 'therapist' has little experience with cult members in general they might too easily extrapolate the RSE experience as representative.

This is exactly why I asked tree my question. But to even refuse to give me a name...!
tells me something is seriously amiss or misunderstood here that I would like to understand.

David sees opportunity to help others in the 'free market' of the www.

Joe,
There so many people hurting here in Yelm, Shell shocked RSE survivors often finds it more comforting to stay in the ditch rather than face reality.
Several weeks ago an RSE staff member came to my home..she was in tears, just needing someone to talk to,
she begged me not to tell anyone she had spoken to me. I suspect she has returned to the RSE fold out of the group pressure and isolation.
At this very moment there are over 1800 people camped out in tents at RSE in Yelm.. , they have surrendered their lives, resources and trust over to a mad women. While the local authorities turn a blind eye to the atrocious conditions and abuse these people endure.
Just yesterday "Magrt" met a women outside the post office who told her was living in her car. The nights are freezing here.
My point is that a... "Professional psychotherapist experienced in cult' related intervention counseling who is local to the Yelm area is sorely needed here.
A video interview could help in several ways, building a bridge of trust is one of them.
By the way..
None of the EMF videos are posted on "YouTube".. "Google Video" is a much better option,
it is better moderated, and does not limited a video to twelve minute's.

Phew..
I think I had better have a cup of tea...

David.

Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:57 am

1. Stabilize emotional well being
2. Strengthen skeptical skills
3. Re-socialize with a wider fame of reference
4. Engage in productive activity useful to others

Thanks for that Joe,

But you forgot to include # 5.

Watch the EMF Google videos.....

chuckle,

David.

journeythroughramthaland · Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:58 am

Hi Blueheeler,
I hope you don't mind me chiming in here.

I have a book you might find interesting, it is titled "Wings of illusion: the Origin, Nature and Future of Paranormal Belief" by John F. Schumaker

He is a clinical psychologist who I believe is located in Australia.

His theory (in a very small nutshell) is that belief in paranormal is an evolutionary trait and he makes a very good case for it. If you read it and find it of interest, you might want to see if you can get in touch with him and see if he has any suggestions for you. I would think he is out of the so called "anti-cult" group, but would still have a comprehensive understanding of the issues at hand and could possibly offer you some alternatives.

I personally have found that mostly authors are fairly easy to get in touch with. I believe he teaches or has taught at several universities there -that might be one way to track him down. He has written other books on the subject but they refer back to information in the one I mentioned so it would probably be helpful to read that one first.

best of luck to you, hang in there.

Robair · Unread post by **Robair** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:24 pm

Hello everyone I have not been posting lately but I read most of the post.
Question for Tree,
(I see no sense in thinking you can go it alone in this world.
You'll get eaten alive if left to fend for oneself totally alone.)

Are you suggesting that everyone that come out of RSE or cult in General should do consoling?

(Regarding if they will do an interview for EMF.....
This was a stunner.
I think it points to an agenda rather than a "Helpful Hints for former RSE members",
so I will not pass on her name.)

My thought here is, should it be her/his/there decision to make? I do not see any harm in David asking.

From Joe
( Keep in mind that whoever might agree to address this issue for all to see forever must be secure in what they propose to say and be able to back it up. Also, if this 'therapist' has little experience with cult members in general they might too easily extrapolate the RSE experience as representative)

In my simple way to see this is if that person was able to help Tree, make me think she or he might be qualify
to give us some pointers.
And again I do not see any harm in David asking them.

For us out here that have chosen to go Barefoot does not mean that we can't use all the Suggestions,Hints an Pointers we can get.

My 2 Cent
Oldone

joe sz · Unread post by **joe sz** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:25 pm

thanks for the 2c Oldone. This emf forum is partially what I mean by all 4 points. I think it helps especially with strengthening thinking skills as well as offering a wider frame of reference, which we all need to stay sane.

David, you remind us that the real story about RSE is in the experience of those 1800 you mentioned "camping" about in their bizarre struggle to participate in the fickle fringe world of Ramtha's teachings.

As Journey mentions from that author, Schumaker, we are all to some extent products of a powerful evolutionary stream. The paranormal experience and its interpretations come with the human package. We unpack this trait in countless ways, stimulated by religions, gurus and cult leaders. Whether it is a handicap as diehard skeptics might see it or a useful survival mechanism is up to each one of us to decide. Some of us see this trait/handicap as a special gift because out of it comes all manner of creative invention in architecture, art, literature, and perhaps science itself.

Unfortunately there are those that would abuse this trait solely for personal gain and "revenge" on the healthier society--for example, Charles Manson---he was a very creative man in his day creating a vibrant [though sick] reality for all manner of innocent and not so innocent seekers.

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:33 pm

very down to earth, the closest thing to what David was speaking about on the www.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=c ... emb=0&aq=f#

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... CSAg&hl=en

a little more dry:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4214&hl=en

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:41 pm

other than these links David,
there are 2 state appointed psychiatrists who diagnose mental health issues
and who are very familiar with people who come through who are
former Ramtha members.

I have already posted in the old forum:

when I first came out of RSE and was feeling like I was on the edge of going mad,
I called over 6 different mental health counselors from Portland to Seattle.
not one of them responded to my plea. So I understand the need in the area
for an intervention counselor.
But even counselors need to be paid for their work.
Which this is a catch 22 for former Ramsters who are pretty much
fresh out of money and in survival.
As difficult as it is,
they need to get out and search for themselves.
I think the person who came to you showed initiative.
But going back to the group is like an alcoholic going back to drinking.
Can't them much if they don't want to help themselves.

Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:05 am

Tree,

Thank you for re-posting those video links.

very down to earth, the closest thing to what David was speaking about on the www.

These video are very good, but the interviewer nor those being interviewed do not address the RSE experience directly.
This is what I try to accomplish in our video projects, also to include a more personal exchange about the RSE experience.
I think this is an important dynamic to include in any interview if possible, especially from the perspective of an exit counselor
who is local to Yelm that really understands the compelling and driving force behind RSE,
who would also be available for psychotherapy counseling for RSE survivors in this area..
But still...I do not understand your negative reaction to my request regarding an interview for EMF.....
Why would this be a "stunner' for you.....!:?,

At this point...I just need to do the legwork and research off line..

You also posted...

We can, however, see the verbal attacks for ourselves here and can only offer kind words as to what has helped
us as individuals. And as moderators, I guess you can just wipe things off the face of the planet if you so choose.
It's your website and the rules are set forth. People can play or not in this sandbox.
Attitudes are pretty obvious on this forum, as once in a while, a mis-communication can be righted if a person
respectfully asks and disagrees

As I see it...
The EMF moderators need to keep the issues at hand from being derailed by ?wolves in sheep?s clothing?.
These posters are very adept at hiding behind a 'bait and switch' method of attack.
They will hit and run, and deflect attention from their vitriol with fake superlatives,
while ignoring reasonable questions and debate.
It takes more than kind words to honestly address these posters and situations.
But the thing is this tree, although these wolves may have been well camouflaged within the confines of RSE ..!
These little puppies can be seen as clear as day on EMF... just crying out for attention.
I hope they become house trained real soon..
Its not pleasant for the moderators to constantly clean up their mess... :(

David.

Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:44 am

Oldone..

Ahhh a voice of reason....and fresh air,
Thank you for your post and addressing the issues..

David.

Whatchamacallit · Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:22 pm

hi,

i'm just getting slowly caught up with the posts, as i've been busy visiting daily with my newly born first grandbaby =-)
also found out that we have another one on the way this summer.

anyway, reading through these posts, i can save time by just saying i agree with what oldone posted.

toward a related comment, emf doesn't wipe away anyone's posts. any intervention is handled thoughtfully and is recorded.

toward what david posted in reply to see&e...i have a slightly different perspective. i know that a few people found see&e a little suspect with regard to a few posts...but...those people came around in time, because they trusted that since i knew see&e, it was a real person, nothing else.

(..............waving to see .............)

sometimes, in all fairness, it isn't easy to initially spot an insincere poster. david made an important point, too. very important, in my opinion. do we not all have a moral obligation to tolerate diversity on EMF ? any level of abusive posting notwithstanding, i'm talking about tolerating spiritual/religious diversity .

yes, people who leave rse have very different views about jz and/or rambles. some think jz is a total jerk (seems to be a fairly common view) because of her apparent greed, narcissism, etc . but they may or may not think rambles is "real". whatever view they hold, affects how they are going to come across to readers, when the post on emf. we have current posters on here...and readers...who are aligned with new age thought, even though they don't endorse rse's ways; those who are anti-anything-remotely-smacking-of-new-age, atheists, those who haven't even decided what they believe anymore, a few folks who are fundamental christians, those who are pro-rse and post as deceivers, etc., etc.

i think emf has tried its best, and may not succeed all of the time, to encourage others to tolerate diversity, and maybe even respect diversity, all the while walking a fine line of halting, or questioning, commentary that isn't aligned with the "agenda" (purpose) of EMF. it's a thankless 'job', and the pay stinks...there is no pay, contrary to jz knight insinuating that david profits from this. that comment by her shows that she is a liar and is willing to spout venom that is unsubstantiated. for that, i respect her less than i already had learned to.

as for people leaving a cult-type of group, sure, some may benefit from individual counseling, and some find a way to deal with their issues and move on, without it. therapy does come in a myriad of forms. i know a few doctoral level psychologists who did their thesis paper on internet therapy. it has its strengths and weaknesses, like most things, but it does serve a valid purpose. emf can serve as (and has) a form of indirect therapy with what resources it has to offer. it's part of the recovery puzzle pieces toward making the whole puzzle, for those who choose it.

okay, back to see the baby ! all ten pounds of her ! (ouch)

Robair · Unread post by **Robair** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:06 pm

Hello everyone
About Moderators, I have fond out not long ago that this task fall on very few here on EMF,after giving some critical thinking I realized that this work might not be as glamorus as one may think. First it is a 24/7 job,just that one by it self is already a very ardious task that most of us would not considered at all,since this site has no advertising that means no money WOW that getting interesting,Now with those two things in mind, you got to work,,first now you have to make sure that this site stay on by protecting it against all kind of pottentials meaning Law Suit Happy peoples who would love to see this site go away, protecting against advertising of all kind.And now must come the real challenging work keeping the posters happy,lot of us in our anger might use all kind of words to discribe our hurt, and frustration not realisizing the damage we might inflict on this site by posting our thought,someone might mention Free Speech,that all find an dandy but Free Speech come with responsability an need to be use with that context in mind,or we all might face the conseqences of losing it someday.
With all of that in mind we all must admit that, that job must be a very difficult balancing act considering when you trow in there your own thought,feeling,frustation,emotion.
Now that I know all of that my way of thinking on that subgect have changed a lot,but for good it strenghten my thinking Skill,(so well put by Joe in his early post,) and that is Great new neuro transmetter firering LOL
In all Consideration I think the Moderators are doing a great Job.
This site might not be much to certain,but for many of us it is a life line and a great help in our transition,a great need to be kept ON

anyone applying

My two cent
Oldone

See&E · Unread post by **See&E** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:28 am

Congratulations Grandma Watcha,

(------waves back--------)

Great news!

See&E

Sad Grandfather · Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:47 am

I see the spammers have found this site. Are they so stupid as to think forcing themselves on people will actually make anyone buy their scams?

Well, maybe there is a sucker born every minute?

Kensho · Unread post by **Kensho** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:39 am

Boy you are quick SG

,

That spammer has now been removed. Sorry it slipped by long enought to get a post in.

Keeping on top of the spammers is one thing that keep the moderators busy day and night.
If anyone is receiving spam on their PM/or email please let us know via email: enlightenmefree@gmail.com

Thanks

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