Missed the boat

[swamibinton]

Hi All,
New here and yes Iam a student but not current but respect the teachings and the knowledge.I know most of you seem dishearted but didnt anyone experience what rams teaching here.

[Whatchamacallit]

Swami Binton,

First of all, I think that your post belongs on the DEBATE board, not here. I hope the moderators will move your post.

Second of all, those on here who have been ex-students for a while are not at all 'disheartened'. I will speak for myself and say that I have a very nice life, and am very happy. I will also say that I "got" the Ram's teachings (as you say), quite well. That's why I'm OUT of RSE. When I say this to you, I am not endorsing RSE or JZR. I am saying that it does not matter to me ANYTHING other than the MESSAGE (the teachings).

A portion of the RSE teachings are nothing new. They are a spin-off of teachings of Eastern Philosophy that one can find elsewhere in books or related materials. Didn't you research the substance and content ? Didn't you question when JZR spouts off quotes from already published books. Clue: JZR has ADMITTED to it. That, however, shouldn't excuse it.

The "science" that is presented in RSE contains partial truth and partial UNsubstantiated pseudo-truth of the RSE spin. Didn't you research the data ?

For the sake of conversation, I will "agree" with you and say that I experienced what the Ram taught PRIOR to the glaring, 180 degree turn in the teachings that stripped people of their power, and fostered dependency on a hierophant that a student MUST HAVE in order to evolve. To me, the core message, as admitted by JZR, was, "Behold God."

I have done that.

God is EVERYWHERE, and I do not need Ramtha, I certainly don't need JZ Knight, I don't need any organized human religion of any denomination. I believe in God, and that is a direct line. There are no underground houses, food storage plans, weapons to stockpile, weather to fear, etc., with MY God. I'm so sorry about yours. Maybe yours will evolve beyond the first three seals, too.

With all due respect, Swami, I daresay that you haven't "experienced" the Ram's teachings. Until you are on the outside, looking in, I understand that may be hard to realize. I hope one day that you do.

[tree]

Dear
swami-

I am amused by your topic post of "missed the boat."
The ironic part is that you missed the boat, but just don't know it yet.

One day, floating along the sea of enlightenment that has been painted for you,
you will come across some warning signs or flags.
They could come in any form.
People, places, times.....you get the picture

Anyway, at some point, an incident will run through your mind, and you will question it.
But then in your mind, you will question the questioning.
You will be told by your "hierphant" that what you are doing is "doubting the teachings" and "doubting me (Ramtha)."

What is REALLY happening is what is commonly known in the truly scientific and known and real world is that
your capacity for critical thinking is coming back.
It has been put asunder for a bit, but it will try to come out because that is how human beings have made it this far
on the train of evolution.
And then that little voice will go away because you will listen to a CD, watch a video, talk to one of your RSE friends,
and they will bring you back to that playground of thinking.
A little while later, another incident or something jz or Ramtha has taught will totally contradict what was said even a few
weeks ago. Even event to event, the teacher sais he 'mixes it up' (my paraphrase) because
"I will get you to do anything, even tell you lies, to get you to do what I want you to become."

In the "normal" world ...and wait, I must digress here.....
Every one of us former students have been in your shoes.
We have been in the "outside" world, and then we were immersed in the potential world and paradigm of truly
great masters. And then we have transitioned back out into the "real world".
We DO KNOW what both you are talking about as well as what this world "out here" is like.
We have been on both sides.

And so, in the "normal world", what is painted for you in that magical realm is truly absurd, once you see it from
THIS perspective again, out here.
While we were in where you are at, we thought the same things you do now.
We acted like you do.
We went to events or listened to tapes and cd's like you do.
We did our disciplines, to whatever degree, like you do.

And then.....something cracked.

And we slowly began to truly investigate, research, talk to other folks who are currently where we are now
and who once were while in RSE.

When you begin to see these things for your self, we will be here.

In the meantime, post on the current students thread .
May that be your guiding torch to true freedom.

[tree]

I know most of you seem dishearted but didnt anyone experience what rams teaching here.

With all due respect, Swami, I daresay that you haven't "experienced" the Ram's teachings. Until you are on the outside, looking in,

1) I am not disheartened in the least
2) I have experienced many things of the paranormal nature
3) I think a person can experience them at RSE as well as outside RSE. One doesn't need RSE to experience those things
4) I am not in swami's position to say whether or not he/she experienced enlightening things.
as I said, it is my belief they can happen any where, any time, and not related in the least to RSE
5) swami-your view is only from one vantage point.
when you actually see from another point of view, and you will know that when you get there,
it is not something contrived in your mind, you will have more tools to make a better assesment.
Kind of like a 1st grader trying to grasp what 5th grade is like. The first grader really WANTS to think they know what
5th grade is like , but you won't know til you get there.Actually, you will only know what 5th grade is like in 6th grade because you will have had all summer AFTER 5th grade to process and contemplate your enitre 5th grade year.
You will have graduated to 6th grade with the understanding of 1st grade AND 6th grade and be better able to see
how naive you were in 1st grade THINKING you knew what 5th graders knew.

Swami-
maybe read the heartfelt threads posted by students and family members and just keep an open mind.
If you have further need to debate, post in the current students forum.
I think this would be fun to watch current students chatting about their experiences and debating the virtues of
freeze dried food vs canning food and the like. Maybe even more enlightening things about whose experience
made them the more enlightened one over their wife or husband. We are always up for a good laugh

[EMFWebmaster]

Welcome "swamibinton"

Your topic thread "missed the boat" has been moved from our NVN & Other News Articles page
to our RSE Current Students Debate Forum

The Moderators

[ordinarymind]

Hi All,
New here and yes Iam a student but not current but respect the teachings and the knowledge.I know most of you seem dishearted but didnt anyone experience what rams teaching here.

Hi Swami ...thanks for your posting. I agree that I have felt disheartened, as you say, especially when I first left RSE, but now, more and more I am feeling strengthened by my efforts to re-find my own mind and critical thinking ability.

In my opinion, there are lots of things to feel disheartened about when you let go of a belief system (i.e. RSE teachings) that had been a solid foundation for so long. Seems to me that would be a natural response.

But, more to the point, I'm wondering if you could be more specific about what you are referring to when you ask "didn't anyone experience what ram's teaching here?" I think there are many people on this site who would welcome a conversation with you around that question.
Thanks,
OrdinaryMind

[See&E]

Welcome Swamibinton,

I hope that you will continue to post in this current student debate forum (thread) if you are sincerely interested in either learning critical thinking skills, or retrurning to them (as Tree shared with you). If your primary reason for posting was to see if you might score any stuff from the teachings, many of us have a virtual "duplicated Annex" of materials. But, being true to the teachings, smile, in order to value the teachintgs, you must pay your tally of gold-- as Tree shared. eBay is a good place to start.

As you have heard from Whatcha and Tree, I won't repeat the same words of wisdom (which I agree with); however, it might be helpful to keep an open mind. To begin with, from your classification: most of us here are(were) "students but not current". That should be your first warning. At some point, sooner or later, you will either run out of funds, time (tvacation), or derive enough return on your investment, that it is easier to remain a student but not current.

Collectively, those who read and post on this site, are well qualified to share with you different levels of experience. Far from being a disgruntled and disheartened site, you may meet all walks of life, education, success, and we all were passionate about the teachings and/or the school at one time. Some for a few events yes, but many of us for decades. We would not have kept spending money on event after event, tapes/cd's, music, capes, paraphenelia, and supplies of all kinds were it not true. We are boh celebrated and uncelebrated individuals. We were all told at one time or another, that we too, were "special", "the best yet", as we were organized and disbanded in all manner of groups, names, and ever-changing levels of "prominence" within the school. Some of the posters on this site, you would either known or recognize. It doesn't matter. Do you remember the teachings on "depression" ? And what that (allegedly was/is)?? Similarly, in that viewpoint (from"the "teachings") to be dis=heartened, might indeed be an enlightened or higher seal frequency (smile). We have traveled to and from Yland, some still reside there, others here spent small fortunes in travel and transportation costs--in addition to the 'money-changers hawking their wares at the temple'.

The first step for most of us, was to be a student, but not current too. Many of us returned, for more events or years. If you sincerely want to ?ssay' your belief system, and know where you are, perhaps the debate thread and forum is a good place to determine it. However, if you silently view yourself from the "smug and I-am-special" phase which is common for members of most organizations, groups, and religions-that-are-not-religions, then .. you may not be ready yet.

Yet, ask yourself, why would it not be beneficial to speak with, correspond with others that have attended the school, since before it's inception and pronouncement, through all manner of eras, and 'one fine morn' we individually found our way "to the void" and returned to beholding god, making known the unknown, and reclaimed our 'power' (to quote the teachings).. only we were free from the pptte of the entrapments, and are again , more free than ever, to think, feel, reason, commune, with our God, indeed the "Lord God of our OWN beings" not waiting to be told what to think, to feel, what books to read... or live in fear, surely not a very masterful life.

Perhaps, we evolved after all. I cannot help but think of the original teachings, and the original love and passion most here had at one time about them. The personality of the "Ram" as presented thru the only authorized channel, of the 80's and 90's , would indeed "be most pleased" at our audacity and maturity to declare from the LGof our B, that "It is Finished" and we took ourselves off our crosses, and stopped dragging our dead mules behind-- including those we purchased and invested ourselves in while discarding our life before RSE, only for many to fill that void, with replacing ministers, priests, authorities and gurus, for channels and the utterances and entertaining 'teachings'.

If God is omnipresent, then, remember there is no place that he/she is not .... there is no where, no experience, that is devoid of the animating principle of Life, we call God, the great Spirit.
We didn't miss the boat.. and we have returned to enjoying life, and having our own free will be our guide, having learned from the experiences.

I hope you will share your stories, and your thoughts, if not not, at some point. Just remember, that like sands in the hourglass, we don't really get to re-live the opportunity of living as we are, and the gift of those pptte around us and in the world.

[swamibinton]

Hi All,
Thanks for your comments and will contemplate.
When i heard ram for the first time I realised that I had been ignorant and blind to what life and our abilities are about and this brang the power back to me and I had extraordinary OBE,manafesting from my cards and bi-location experiences so than I realised there is some truth in all this that ram teaches. I am not current because I want to evolve and advance myself truely with rams teachings as the foundation,but by doing it myself with self inspiration,this doesnt mean I dislike JZ or ram and will certainly go to another event.

For me Ram and JZ has opened my eyes and I am gratefull for that and the credit goes to Ram of all, I agree to strive for oneselfs evolution and there is other teachings out there but you cant go and sit and listen to a master teacher just anywhere.

Its a lone journey for us all but where do you get the incredible knowledge and understanding if you dont have a master teacher to teach such deep areas into the mind and brain,I wouldn't go to the Dali lama or the pope as the example they show is no different than entities who only know social consc.

I recently had my father pass away and I put the teachings to the test and they blossomed greatly as without this knowledge I may have fallen into depression or what ever,the day he passed I thinking of him and what is after death and wanted a sign so I TOOK PHOTOS OF ORBS and here in a pic was my fathers face so real it stunned me and i showed it to my mother (who is open minded) and it help to understand death and the loss of a loved one and that death is not the end,so without this knowledge from Ram & JZ i doubt this would have happened this way, so ram has given me a great understanding in many areas and this one is grand.

I dont see myself ever disregarding what is taught here or doubting the depth ram goes as i allways seem to have a runner after a teaching which brings the philosophy to truth and concretes it even more.
I have had fantastic exp with the cards,mirror & candle and yes anyone can get them anywhere but where do you get the underlying knowledge,not from henry sugar as he satted it takes 10 years plus to develop yet some do it in months, so the media and outside world as you call it is a blurry vision for me of deception and one motive MONEY. the school makes money and sometimes I dont agree on what but it survives and will continue I am sure and if people spend all they have on the school it is not the schools fault but the individuals decision to do so.

i have done plenty of research on the science of this and not many answers are there but most my answers and reasoning come from Rams teaching and knowledge so he deserves respect and credit for getting most people to where they are today and if individuals fall out of school than thats fine but lets not shoot the messenger. Know one says you must do this and that you dont have to do anything if you dont want to, atleast this school has a corridoor of freedom not like some cults out there who take everything if you like it or not and then sexually take advantage of people,these are the ones who need judging and shutting down and putting in line.

anyway like to here more

[tree]

swami sais: but most my answers and reasoning come from Rams teaching and knowledge so he deserves respect and credit

at one time, I felt this as well.
But having left school, I have found much more credible sources of reference and not some
ripped off, newly spun, glitterly version of someone else's work- and mostly from other
charlatans.
your quote tells me this is the underlying foundation of your current belief system.
I understand that, and have experienced that myself INCLUDING very similar justifications that you have
mentioned on a personal nature.

Once one gets out from that belief system, there are many other explanations, sometimes there are none.
I do not need an explanation for my family passing, I do not need an explanation of why a thunderstorm occurred,
I do not need an explanation of why I turned right instead of left. These are all pretty inane in the macro cosm of life.
Right now, I am very happy just being without any explanations for these tedious things.
Takes up WAY too much energy.

[California Dreamin']

"Once one gets out from that belief system, there are many other explanations, sometimes there are none."



This comment (made by Tree) makes me think of the latest tidbit that has been bugging me lately (other than my anal obsession with my formatting challenges on this EMF website):

I have a dear friend who is in the school. During her entire 20 years at RSE she was virtually ignored by Ramtha. He never acknowledged her and appeared to never even see her, even after 20 years. About a month ago, I shared my newfound realizations about RSE with my friend who listened to me but remained unmoved.

Then, at the next event she attended (which was a week ago), JZR singled her out, walked up to her, embraced her, looked into her eyes and said something to the effect "Master, don't you ever give up (yada yada yada)." Needless to say, she was elated and blown away.

I find myself perplexed by the timing of this comment (i.e., immediately after I shared my new realizations with her). How can this be explained??????

[Marie]

I find myself perplexed by the timing of this comment (i.e., immediately after I shared my new realizations with her). How can this be explained??????

Sometimes it seems like the better idea to search for "explanations" than to just accept that in life we have such limited or no control over other people, places and things.

This board often reminds me of how much JZ and rse teach the antithesis of what a well known 12 step program, respected by professionals and the average joe world wide as a model for healthy living advocate... Some of examples are:

12 step program says: strive for humilty, be a worker among workers, part of the whole, not THE whole
JZ says: you are SPECIAL, CHOSEN, THE FEW -- the REST of the world just "doesn't get it"

12 step program says: surrender to a god of your understanding, the point being YOU are not god and therefore not responsble for controlling other people, places and things and running the universe and situations therein
JZ says: YOU are god and YOU can create your own reality!

12 step program says: honesty is vital -- with others as well as with self
JZ says: lying to get what you want or to serve your own best interest is just "creative thinking!"

12 step program says: mistakes are ok, progress not perfection, that's how life is and how we learn
JZ says: You are idiots and not trying hard enough!!

And those are just a few -- which mode of living feels healthier to you?

[tree]

there are many other explanations, sometimes there are none

California-
I can TOTALLY commiserate with what you are saying.
Me, not having been out that long (realizing maybe just a more months than you that RSE is really what it is),
I still can be flustered with some bizarre coincidence happening.
and thank god I have my best friend and confidante whom I can say these silliest observations that I have
and she can blithely, while driving, turn to me and say, "Tree, there is no explaining _______
blah blah blah) " (whatever my incident was).
She is my anchoring point to this real world.
If it were not for her, the therapists and this board, I would STILL be banging my head against a wall not being able
to navigate myself very well at all.

I know some of these coincidences can appear trite, while others, like "ramtha" singling out your friend, but these things are NOT really trite at all coming from where we came from . These were made out to be HUGE friggin' deals
aiming to show that "oh, INDEED, RSE must be the way because x, y, and z happened." Little things are HUGER in RSE because that is what we focused on. Recall the ever inundating thought processes of constant thought monitoring? I, myself, believe what we are experiencing (as the ex you showed) afteraffects of some serious
brainwashing.

Just yesterday, I am in a totally foreign town. I sit down with one person I know somewhat, and another I hardly
know at all. We order a small pizza and a chicken caesar salad. All of sudden, some wine ceremony 60's song comes
on from Van Morrsion. I am trying REALLY hard to make the association between the pizza and the music, but all that is flashing in my brain is a stoopid wine ceremony, sitting near the back of the room, listening to a drunken judy talking about that stoopid El Camino again.
So, I say I will excuse myself outside.

My friend wisely came with the other friend with all the food- TO GO- in a matter of about 1 minute and a half.
She put me in the car and we were down the road.
no big deal now.
driving down the raod to take our dinner to eat somewhere else.

These coincidences and flashbacks are just that. Plain and simple.
No need to think that we have to have this ultimate brain masterbation thing (pardon me- but that is what it is) going on when life is happening right under your nose and feet. :)

We were taught to scrutinize e v e r y l i t t l e thing so the point of madness
and a pure waste of time.
(notwithstanding someone having some kind of personal "aha!" moment), but you
get the idea.

Please know that these coincidences occur and there often times are no explanations.

NEXT!! (with a kind and gentle hug for Dreamin' :) )

[tree]

California-

and, as a side note.
jz has mike wright reading this board as well as other "feelers" out there to
get a pulse on what is going on in the rse community.
just like the Penney Torres /Mafu video ( I think on Google) where a staff member
had alerted Penney just before she went on stage as "mafu" that so and so, (big whig in
the audience) was building a pyrmamid in another country.
Penney comes out and singles this guy out, asks him about the pyramind, and the guy
sais, "oh. THAT pyramid." which then makes Penney look good as a psychic
and also like she has a sense of humor.

[Whatchamacallit]

SB?s comment: ?When i heard ram for the first time I realised that I had been ignorant and blind to what life and our abilities are about and this brang the power back to me ?

Fact: The message, the philosophy, that God is within us, or that we have ?sixth sense? abilities is NOT an original thought of Ramtha/JZ. It?s thousands of years old and is documented in Eastern Religions and philosophy, as well as some Western ones. JZ can copyright and service mark all the coined phrases such and ?C&E? that she wants to, but her teachings are NOT original, other than the new label she slapped onto an old concept. We are all free to do that and start our own school with slightly tweaked Old News.


SB?s comment: ?and I had extraordinary OBE,manafesting from my cards and bi-location experiences so than I realised there is some truth in all this that ram teaches. I am not current because I want to evolve and advance myself truely with rams teachings as the foundation,but by doing it myself with self inspiration,this doesnt mean I dislike JZ or ram and will certainly go to another event. ?

Facts & Opinions: You can do whatever you want as far as your spiritual life choices. However, just be clear on something: as I already said, you may choose ?Ram?s teachings?, but you do not NEED them. The concepts are available in previous works, and that costs far less, too, because your attendance and worthiness to receive Ramtha?s version of reality, isn?t conditional upon you lining JZ?s pockets for a never ending ?curricula? at RSE. A cold, hard fact is that YOU will be blamed for not manifesting, if you do not have the money to pay for an event, because you will be cut off. Done. No pay, no stay. That should be a red flag to you. I am not saying this because I ran out of money to attend RSE. I didn?t. I left because the teachings and actions of JZR had become so debased and so controlling and so insecure, that I knew I wanted to evolve with a guiding force MUCH more evolved than that. So, my direct pipeline is to God. No Ramtha, no priest, just God. I see blessings in my life all of the time. I see my own intuition at work in my life, daily. I don?t need any RSE event for that. I only need to be sincere about evolving my self on all levels. I believe that is true for all of us.

In that way, yes, it IS an alone journey. That includes alone from JZR, who absolutely influences the students, who are not open minded, though they think that they are. They are preparing for the END OF THE WORLD by hoarding food, living underground in shelters, having dogs, weapons to use as needed, and I daresay that THIS is a God manifesting ? Tsk, tsk. No, Swami?us ex-students have so NOT missed the boat. The current RSE follower-fanatics, have missed the boat. They?ve sadly, forfeited their lives to FOLLOWING JZ KNIGHT.

SB comments, ?For me Ram and JZ has opened my eyes and I am grateful for that and the credit goes to Ram of all, I agree to strive for one?s own evolution and there is other teachings out there but you cant go and sit and listen to a master teacher just anywhere.?



Opinion: If we care about or spiritual growth, then perhaps we should all be striving to be the best we can be, on all levels. I understand that your introduction to that aspect of your life was initiated by the RSE teachings. I just hope that for your sake, you don?t turn a blind eye to the wrongdoing that goes on there, in the name of thinking it?s the only place you can gain ?enlightenment?, or simply to evolve yourself by choice. RSE is absolutely not required to evolve. I believe it will actually stunt one?s growth, because those students give their power away to the Social Consciousness of RSE. I watched it for almost 20 years and I know what I?m talking about.

SB?s comment: ? Its a lone journey for us all but where do you get the incredible knowledge and understanding if you dont have a master teacher to teach such deep areas into the mind and brain,I wouldn't go to the Dali lama or the pope as the example they show is no different than entities who only know social consc.?

Opinion: I understand your comment about questioning where you can get the incredible knowledge and understanding if you don?t have a master teacher. The good news is that you ARE questioning. That?s heartening. The answer is, as I?ve already said, you CAN grow without Ramtha. Here?s another thought that I will comment about for your consideration, that others will cringe at; if Ramtha is real in your mind, and he loves you, he will not leave you if you leave RSE. RSE is for JZ. Ramtha has said many, many, many times that his reach far surpasses that arena. Ramtha doesn?t need RSE; JZ does. Now, I?m also not saying Ramtha is real. My point is the critical thinking that is enmeshed in what I just commented about. Think about that. It?s a stepping stone. Ultimately, it doesn?t matter if Ramtha is real, or not. It shouldn?t be affecting your decisions, or else you are not free in your MIND. Why not have the courage to be wrong in the face of what you believe is right ? In other words, live your own life without conforming to the BOUNDARIES of RSE Social Consciousness ? Don?t say it doesn?t exist. I sat in the front row when even JZR questioned if it existed or not. Most were saying, ?Noooooo!!!? I was saying, ?YES!!!? JZR smiled and said, ?Oh, yes it does!? Of COURSE it does ! That, too, was another clue for me to move on.

SB commented, ?I recently had my father pass away and I put the teachings to the test and they blossomed greatly as without this knowledge I may have fallen into depression or what ever,the day he passed I thinking of him and what is after death and wanted a sign so I TOOK PHOTOS OF ORBS and here in a pic was my fathers face so real it stunned me and i showed it to my mother (who is open minded) and it help to understand death and the loss of a loved one and that death is not the end,so without this knowledge from Ram & JZ i doubt this would have happened this way, so ram has given me a great understanding in many areas and this one is grand. ?

Response to SB: I don?t see that orbs are related to JZR. JZR is JZR and orbs are orbs. Orbs have been identified on the internet BEFORE JZR ever presented the teaching on them in the arena. They were even called, ?orbs?, before JZR used the phrase. I have pictures of orbs in photographs that I have taken at home, with an old fashioned disposable camera, as well as with a moderately priced digital camera. I offered to take digit at a friend?s mother?s funeral. The family is staunchly Catholic, but my friend of 30 years, was so desperate for a sign of her mother?s ongoing spirit, welcomed me to take pix of her open casket. I took a LOT of pix. At one point, I felt strongly that my friend was to stand next to the casket, and THEN take a pic. Is it a coincidence that ONLY in the picture that I took where friend stood next to mom in the casket, did a bright, large white orb appear RIGHT UP ABOUT A FOOT OVER HER MOTHER?S HEART ? It?s crystal clear.

(Aside for California) I don't believe it is, though I also want to say that I do believe some things in life, are just coincidences. If I have to "wonder" about whether or not something is a coincidence, then the MESSAGE was not delivered clearly enough, so I toss it out. If "Ramtha" wanted to deliver a message that left no doubt, then it would be that way, not mind games that leave a student, or ex-student, as Tree said, mentally masturbating it trying to figure it out. Hold Ramtha accountable if you believe he could have intended a message !!!! Nothing wrong with saying, "Hey, dude, what are you playing games for ? If you can't communicate clearly, then shut up." If he's real, he intended to mess with your head, and your friends, too. Tsk, tsk.

For one thing, those are the types of things that happen to me in my life, that tell me I am lovingly guided by God when I need to be. However, I?m even open to the concept that there is no God, and it is all coincidence. I choose to have faith in God. I have too many ?coincidences? for me to believe otherwise, including physical healings of my body. There are books written about such experiences; I?m NOT saying ?I?m special.? Quite the contrary, at times I?ve expressed gratitude and wondered why, despite some of the stupid, even mean things I?ve occasionally done in my life, why I would experience such grace and forgiveness ? But, despite being a jerk at times, I have many blessings for which I am VERY grateful. Very, very. That was true prior to RSE, and it?s still true now. So, RSE did not cause it.

SB said, ?I dont see myself ever disregarding what is taught here or doubting the depth ram goes as i allways seem to have a runner after a teaching which brings the philosophy to truth and concretes it even more.
I have had fantastic exp with the cards,mirror & candle and yes anyone can get them anywhere but where do you get the underlying knowledge,not from henry sugar as he satted it takes 10 years plus to develop yet some do it in months, ?.?

My response: SB, I didn?t ever see myself disregarding what it taught there. However, I always, always had some?hmmm?critical view of things. I had a strong support system at home, and I wasn?t so sociable at the school. I would come home and talk to my entire (large) family about ?red flags? that I witnessed. For me, it was, I think, easier to dismiss these things to the back burner, because they reminded me of a similar situation.

I always wondered about what God REALLY is, what it means, this God thing; since I was little. So, I went to my fair share of churches over the years. I considered a number of religious viewpoints. I was raised Protestant and went to church fairly regularly until I was around 12 years old. I had more questions than answers. The minister?s kids were in school with me; alcoholics before the age of 17. Cute. I witnessed, repeatedly, parishioners gossiping and backstabbing fellow congregationalists. I saw such hypocrisy there among these good Sunday-only Christians. I saw PARALLEL behaviors in RSE. The face of the structure changed, from church to arena. Nothing else changed. The way the staff treated the CUSTOMERS/students, was disgusting. These were role models ? JZ coming onto the stage to vomit her latest personal life dramas to a captive audience, or to stroke herself ? That was a christ unfolding ? If we had any personal life dramas, we were ?stuck in our past? and ?victims addicted to our past?. More hypocrisy, but I kept putting it on the back burner. Foolish me. The signs were all there for me to hold RSE as accountable as any other institution or business that made CLAIMS for products or services.

SB, you are far from alone in having spiritual experiences in your life. What those of us who have left KNOW, is that we had them prior to RSE, and they continue after we free ourselves from RSE. We don?t credit Ramtha/JZ for OUR experiences. We accept that they are blessings in our life, irregardless of RSE. I suggest that you are contributing your spiritual experiences to someone OUTSIDE of you. That?s even contrary to the teaching you claim you believe in, because all things come from INSIDE of you, eh ? Think about that. Consider this: If Ramtha sent you a runner, and you weren?t ?aligned? with it (frequency specific), then it wouldn?t ?land? in your reality. It couldn?t. So, anything that does happen to you, can only be because it?s part of your frequency specific. I am speaking to you in what language I know you will understand, but I?m pointing out a discrepancy. There are also folks who are afraid to accept that there is no Ramtha, or that Ramtha can?t control their lives, because they NEED a ?Jesus? or ?Ramtha? who has some control so they feel safe?maybe even safe and loved.



SB said, ??.so the media and outside world as you call it is a blurry vision for me of deception and one motive MONEY. the school makes money and sometimes I dont agree on what but it survives and will continue I am sure and if people spend all they have on the school it is not the schools fault but the individuals decision to do so.

SB, this is more Ramthaspeak on your part. You?re only spouting off here, what you?ve been TOLD. But, if YOU think about it, you might change your MIND. I would agree with you that there are aspects of society that have money driven greedy people connected to it. However, do you toss it all out because some of it isn?t ?perfect? ? To be consistent, then you should also hold RSE to the same standard ! By your own admission, sometimes you don?t agree with the school/money issue, and that?s good; that?s healthy thinking on your part. But, here?s the thing; here?s an example of how much the students give their power away to JZ Knight. They DO allow themselves to lose some or most or all of their money to JZ, yes. It is a choice. To a point. At the point when ?Ramtha? ridicules students for not attending enough events, challenging their sincerity and dedication (gee, how mature of him! NOT), then it is no longer ?just a choice? of the student to spend their money. ?Ramtha? has TOLD the students that they need him, their hierophant, IN ORDER TO EVOLVE. So, the conditions of participation and evolution then become, HAVING to attend most/all of the events in order to ?make it? in the school. Some students even fear him abandoning them. Guess what ??? HE WILL ABANDON YOU. ?.SHE?.will cut you off at the gate, as soon as you do not pay her. Your spiritual life is only conditional upon paying JZ?s bank account. If the students all stood up, and said, ?NO.?, THEY would be in control. THEY would dictate the rules of the game, but they are all FOLLOWERS who are weak minded to the mandates of JZR. Some call it being brainwashed. Or, coercive persuasion.
The students commonly express the viewpoint that you did; they don?t know where the money for their next event is coming from AND THEY DON?T LIKE IT, but they TOLERATE it (victims) because it?s for the school/teachings. NO, it?s not !!!! It?s ONLY for JZ. JZ has no school if you people stand your ground and demand she charge a fair, AFFORDABLE to the common middle class person, and only attend if such is the case. (Having said that, I am not endorsing attendance, but pointing out how victimized students are).

SB said, ?i have done plenty of research on the science of this and not many answers are there but most my answers and reasoning come from Rams teaching and knowledge so he deserves respect and credit for getting most people to where they are today and if individuals fall out of school than thats fine but lets not shoot the messenger. ?

My response: You?re correct in that most of the scientific answers that support Ramtha?s model of science are not there, because they have not been proven. Ramtha said that Einstein was wrong and that E=mc2 isn?t correct, because it?s really E=m2c2. (The ?2? is squared, but it won?t type correctly) He gave no substantiated evidence for this being ?true?. He just threw out the comment, so that others would just drool over his profound statement of ?fact?. It isn?t a fact. Science is a theory. Ramtha?s model of science is even less than a theory because it?s Unsubstantiated. Don?t talk to me about your foolish CHOICE to accept Ram?s teaching and knowledge based on nothing but him Saying So. Talk to me about why you are paying for dogma that includes a teacher who has not proven his credentials, or substantiated his claims. I KNOW how the scientific presentations work in that school. I was there for almost 20 years. I attended LOTS of events. They are spins that are quoted out of books, with a Ramthatwist on them. Unproven. We?re not shooting the messenger. We?re about demanding accountability. The big guy is just that, (assuming he?s real), a big boy who is capable of substantiating who he claims he is, yet hasn?t done so. There?s no reason it can?t be done if it?s TRUE. There?s nothing wrong with a person demanding, or expecting, that if you are asked to believe what is being said, then you substantiate your words. Do so through science. Just because ?Ramtha says so? is in the same category (for me) as ?just because it?s in the Bible?. Not good enough.

SB said, ?Know one says you must do this and that you dont have to do anything if you dont want to, atleast this school has a corridoor of freedom not like some cults out there who take everything if you like it or not and then sexually take advantage of people,these are the ones who need judging and shutting down and putting in line.?

My response: Now you are making excuses for the school, when you could choose to be a discriminating student/customer, and EXPECT a higher standard, where the teacher shows nothing short of 4th seal attributes towards the students, as so do the staff. Instead, that is NOT the case.

SB said, ?anyway like to here more?.
My response: You said you wanted to hear more, and I took you up on the offer. I just gave you a significant amount of my time. I hope you take it seriously. At worst, if you don?t, perhaps someone else will.

[California Dreamin']

Marie -
I'm on a summer break (ha ha) from a 12-Step program that's been very beneficial in coming to terms with my path and where I am today. Thanks for the reminder.


Tree -
This board is great. It allows me to process a lot of stuff that no one else out there would be able to relate to. You're fortunate to have a good friend who is there to re-center you when the triggers are activated.

I'm now looking at the timing of my friend's experience and thinking "wow, what a trip" and letting it go at that. What an trippy coincidence.

Here's a heavy thought: Could it be that "coincidences" are actually "coincidences?" (heavy, huh!?!)

Sorry I missed the El Camino teaching. That must have been absolutely hysterical!


Whatcha -
Thanks for your insight. Having given this incident more thought, I believe the "timing" of the recognition of my friend by JZR was a coincidence. That moment of recognition was something my friend has always desired and she created it. It was my friend's experience, pure and simple, not mine.

Initially when my friend told me about her experience, my ego wanted to believe that there was a message in there meant for me. I now know better. I need stop thinking that things that happen are always "about me."





:)

[Whatchamacallit]

CA said, "Initially when my friend told me about her experience, my ego wanted to believe that there was a message in there meant for me. "

ROFL !!! Yeah, well you are guilty along with probably 99.9% of the rest of the students, wanting to believe there was a message....

Maybe I'm the only one, but I thought that dreadful El Camino teaching was b-o-r-i-n-g. When they replayed it (it was LOOOONG), I was so disappointed that I was going to have to sit through that again. I gladly laid down and fell asleep. I got yelled at by the staff, for not "participating".

[G2G]

[quote="Maybe I'm the only one, but I thought that dreadful El Camino teaching was b-o-r-i-n-g. When they replayed it (it was LOOOONG), I was so disappointed that I was going to have to sit through that again. I gladly laid down and fell asleep. I got yelled at by the staff, for not "participating".[/quote]

I'm surprised they didn't put a dunce-style "Godscope" on your head and place you in the corner!!!!

(are they still using those things? Or can they now be "manifested" aka purchased at the old Outback!)

I feel a manifestation of hiccups coming on due to the laughter of staff hypocrisy!

::hic:: And imagine. No wine!

[swamibinton]

Hi all,
Thanks for your comments and time.
Tree
2) I have experienced many things of the paranormal nature
3) I think a person can experience them at RSE as well as outside RSE. One doesn't need RSE to experience those things

I for one dont believe that the message or experiences are solely from RSE but I do give credit to the fact that this was where I awoke from other thoughts as I have had experiences in my younger days and I thought i was wierd or something but than I learned from Ram and it became very clear what was going on so this is why I respect where the answers came from and how,Ram has said many times to read this and that so you just dont hear it from him so to me he wasnt taking credit for it all.I look at a lot of areas NOW but never did so I respect the awakening.It is like 2 apple trees I have,one has good apples the other not so good so I pick the good tree most of the time and keep my eye on the other.

See&E
Collectively, those who read and post on this site, are well qualified to share with you different levels of experience.

I hope to hear of these as some experiences we all have had are unexplainable without the knowledge and again I heard it from ram so I respect it,and yas others say it but it than is secound hand news thats all.

Whatchamacalit

Thanks for your thoughts they are very interesting.I may have misled a bit but I know ram is not the only one talking but he still seems the only one available to teach in depth knowledge.the sixth sense I have known for years but could never understand or explain it in detail untill now...(its just all about knowledge it dont matter where it comes from as long as we get it)
I dont NEED the school if I did i would go to all events and move there,but it has help considerably,i am a big believer in not hanging onto ones apron and I do see silly acts at school by students and staff but I also understand we are still human and these things happen outside of school as well so i dont take it to heart as I am there to evolve myself and learn all i can and this includes out side knowledge as well.
As for THE DAYS TO COME well some people are just out of control but when Ram mentioned it I sat on the fence and took all he said and put it aside and looked at what was left and we dont need to be a rocket scientist to undersatnd the world is changing not only nature but threats of war etc, the world wont end but it is changing or evolving so with this observation I act accordingly and rams info is potential that needs to be consided as well.

As for the school the only thing which dissapoints me is the fact that it is going down the track of a buisness with board members and costs which dont quite fit for me for and this maybe from JZ or staff I dont know but it isnt clouding my vision of what I AM after so if they price it out of reach then SO BE IT I will continue to strive for my evolution.

Unfortunatley our personalities do conflict at times with others and we dont buy in anymore and thats fine but i try not to allow things which are apparent outside of school be the same in school as be it any school of wisdom I am here to learn not be what i am striving not to be elsewhere.

there just is somemany things of extraordinary experiences which now I understand that happened from what i learnt to dissregard who I learnt them from amd if it was Buddah than I would feel the same,look at kenny and debbie they are examples of our potentials just waiting to be achieved and again yes they can be dont elsewhere but i seen it there and if JZ is money hungry (which is hard to believe if she has so much money allready) than tuff luck for her as I dont worship anyof them but I do respect part of it.

If the school keeps going buisness like the big corporations than that is very unfortunate as this is contradictive to what is taught, if all beginners were able to have their first event free than it would be more impeccable to me. We do have a lot of humans running this and some are caught up in ego trips and I see that but their days will come just like in the outside world.

Hope to talk more but i am in my journey and it involves RSE as I have more credible experiences,knowledge and understanding than on this site,but saying that I still like to keep an open mind with you all.
Maybe I am wrong maybe I am right dont matter lets just learn.

[tree]

We do have a lot of humans running this(RSE) and some are caught up in ego trips and I see that but their days will come

Let it be known that EVERYTHING that comes down comes from the queen herself and NO ONE ELSE.
She would NEVER have it any other way.
The behaviors of humans below on the food chain at RSE are indicative of what stems from the top.
"as above, so below".

The tighter the top of the dradel becomes, the tighter the spin......

[HumblePied Piper]

Swami,

I am not a former student, but am in a relationship with one. She also has a need to be 'different'... a need to have experiences that 'normal' people aren't privvy to. She claims out of body experiences, a better understanding of the teachings than the other students, and of course, the ability to create her own reality and be her own God (if she can focus enough).

It all feeds the inability to open up and have intimacy. I see it affecting her ability to be humble and have gratitude... and attain the ultimate enlightenment: happiness and joy.

Glad to see you post!!
Hpp

[Whatchamacallit]

SwamiB said, "Hope to talk more but i am in my journey and it involves RSE as I have more credible experiences,knowledge and understanding than on this site"

SwamiB, would you care to elaborate on the above comment you made ?

At first glance, this appears to be the typical arrogant attitude of spiritual superiority that many of the students have. The attitude is fostered by JZR.

For one thing, if you are content with your lot at RSE, good for you. You have a right to be there until your dying day, just like many other former students who stayed current in RSE until death from old age, or illness took them. Note: not one of them ascended, as the teachings lead people to believe that they can, and will do.

For another thing, it is nothing more than your opinion that you "have more credible experiences, knowledge and understanding than on this site". That only shows your lack of reading the fullness of posts on this website, as well as our initial website, plus going all the way back to FactNet.

Many ex-RSE students have talked openly on EMF about their "spiritual", or "psychic" experiences, their "intuition", etc. Most if not all of us have succeeded in all of the disciplines done at RSE during our time there. Not one of the RSE students, past or present, has ever mastered all of the disciplines, or achieved God-woman, God-man realized in the flesh, or ascended....or healed the world. Quite the contrary, they are so disempowered, that they accept the Doom & Gloom teachings of the third seal. Yes, the world has natural cycle of economic, and other, ups and downs. Do your homework and you will see that it's true. If the "masters" at RSE were so all-powerful, especially after 30 years in the school, surely by now they could easily and simply focus on this planet AVOIDING ANY Doom & Gloom predictions. But they don't. They haven't. They've built underground houses to save their own asses (1st 3 seals), instead of focusing on a whole, healthy planet for ALL people (4th seal, eh ?).

I have 20 years of knowledge from RSE, and I only left RSE two years ago. I expect that I probably attended WELL OVER 100 events. Perhaps close to twice that. I own many hundreds of tapes, probably every book on Ramtha ever printed in English, and all the videos. I've watched them countless times. Make no mistake; I (and others on this site) fully understand the teachings. That's why we are not there.

We fully and clearly see the HYPOCRISY between the teachings in the first three seals, and the underlying message that has occasionally come through, that is a message of love (4th seal and higher). YET, the 4th seal message has been spoken for THOUSANDS of years; it's not new to RSE at all.

YOU clearly believe you NEED RSE to evolve. Some on here would disagree (I sure do), and believe that you do not.

It is my belief that compared to a person's potential to evolve him/herself, by consciously choosing to "live the golden rule", so to speak, and to listen to their own intuition, that just as HumblePie has said, the true meaning of enlightenment has to do with LIVING THIS life, and finding real joy and happiness from the inside out. Ironically enough, "Ramtha" did speak about this. "He" said that there is a lightness of being when the "one fine morn" has come. For me, that has happened. It happened AFTER I LEFT RSE.

The level of first three seals activity in the teachings, and in the actions of the students/staff (not all of them, but the attitude is fairly persvasive), is a limited experience.

Enlightenment is free, SwamiBinton. Not just free financially, but free ... to BE. To feel such deep joy that it feels like it's sparkling right out of one's chest. To be SO centered that one's intuition is finely honed and more active than anytime previously in life. That is what has happened to me, AFTER I left RSE. I also know that I am not alone.

If RSE works for you, and you choose to EXCUSE the "issues" that even you admit exist there, good for you. Stay there. Work to evolve yourself. But as long as you give your power away to the Dogma of that teaching, you won't go too far. When, and if, you fully come home to YOUR SELF, then you will understand what I (and others on here) can only try to tell you.

When that happens, you don't need/want RSE anymore. You've transcended it, because you've transcended the first three seals, which is what RSE is all about.

[journeythroughramthaland]

Hi Swami,

I have not been a student either, however, my daughter was for close to ten years. if you have not read the story of my initial acquaintance with RSE see
http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... .php?t=115

I have read and understood your comments with regard to the school and also understand that you are involved in a process to 'evolve" yourself. Please correct me if any of my assumptions are inaccurate.

In a nutshell, it sounds to me that throughout your life prior to RSE you have had experiences that you were not able to explain (at least in a manner that was acceptable to you), and during your time at RSE you discovered that what was being taught validated some explanations you may have been exploring before.

because of this, you feel that it has been beneficial for you. It sounds like you have had a realization, or an "ahh ha" as some might say.

You did however make some astute observations as to the dynamics you have witnessed as well as some disenchantment with other aspects of the school. Your rather unique outlook and courage in posting leaves me wanting to know more.

I would like to pose a few questions and please feel free to answer them in any manner you wish, i.e. PM or email or on the board.

Have you ever been in a learning situation before where you experienced similar things i.e.. the message vrs. the messenger? How did you respond to those experiences? Were they beneficial to you as well? Why did you not continue on with them if they were?

Are you familiar with the concept of confirmation bias? Have you had experiences before that would be examples of that? If so, do you think any part of your experience might be influenced by confirmation bias now? if not, why not?

I ask these questions with the knowledge that while there might be some nuggets of truth within the "teachings" at RSE they are certainly mixed with lies, plagiarism, controlled learning, as well as what I see as a basic fraud by JZ pretending to be an entity that she has acknowledged she created. Actually, we all could create a ramtha of our own if we so desired, hers fulfills her desire for dollars, power and control.

Basically, a larger observation and question would be, if one were mining for nuggets of gold, one would do better mining where there was a confirmed gold vein. Otherwise, they might spend their lifetime trying to mine where there is no gold simply because they found some nuggets someone dropped along the way.

So, why would it be any different with knowledge? if one was to mine for knowledge, wouldn't it be wise to make sure there was a vein that had been confirmed? Over 30 years is a long time to operate a mine with no strike. Note that not many stock holders have remained out of the more then 70,000 (Greg Simmons figures) I see it as similar to those who stay with a stock that might be hot for a moment, those who did not take their money off the table when they had made a good profit and greed kept them in even as the stock plummets they still think it will go back to its high. They watch it go down and down, cost averaging on the way down thinking how much they will make when it goes up again (and occasionally it goes up a bit) but eventually it tanks and disappears.

Why would you think it is not time to take your "money " off the table now since you have gained so much?

[ex]

When i heard ram for the first time I realised that I had been ignorant and blind to what life and our abilities are about and this brang the power back to me and I had extraordinary OBE,[sorry my friend sounds like part of the brainwaschprogram. 90%of her audience would arque simmilar to defend the school] As for the school the only thing which dissapoints me is the fact that it is going down the track of a buisness with board members and costs which dont quite fit for me for and this maybe from JZ or staff I dont know but it isnt clouding my vision of what I AM after so if they price it out of reach then SO BE IT . [ever ever saw the ram make any judgment about this?he allways backs staff and jz ...bad bad stuff vers good good hyrophant isent real proof or excuse for ramthas existence.
I will continue to strive for my evolution.[the whole planet does this not only ramys.]good luck.

[Whatchamacallit]

JTR says, "I have not been a student".


Gosh, Journey, you really need to go to a Beginner's !!!!

LOL

[swamibinton]

Hi all thanks again for posting your comments appreciate that we can disscuss this.

Have you ever been in a learning situation before where you experienced similar things i.e.. the message vrs. the messenger? How did you respond to those experiences? Were they beneficial to you as well? Why did you not continue on with them if they were?

Firstly i dont recall being in a similar exp of the meesage V messenger but I do see it in politics.
The experiences i responded very well I thought as I actually was exploring and trying new things and was not afraid at all but some tell me they are (OBE) and this is after I learnt the knowledge,but before school I was petrofied.
Before i learnt they were not beneficial as I thought I was wierd or something was wrong because all i knew then (7-10y old) was that it was the devil or evil.But now completely differnt turn around as I embrace and move with them with confidence,i continue on practicing when they happen EG I was having an obe and could see myself on the bed and all I thought of was refinig the process so I would go back in my body and back out as much as I could to make it common and as natural as I can.

I would like to here of other areas where this is taught as I have looked at PITAH but not to deep as yet.
The other point of JZ being RAM i just cant gather the concept especially the length and depth of mind it reaches and the NO TIME experiences and body control (going to the loo) you all know he has taught god knows how many hours continually and without something to referr too.
Why wouldnt JZ just say it is her ?
And Kenny seeing ram as he has mentioned and doing what he does.
I know you just cant become enlightened over night and some may never do it but if they do then what,its ok!

What brang you students to school at the beginning?

Are you familiar with the concept of confirmation bias
Can you explain this please (I havent read your article as yet but will.)

SwamiB said, "Hope to talk more but i am in my journey and it involves RSE as I have more credible experiences,knowledge and understanding than on this site"

I just dont fully understand why RSE is so bad as some of you have had bad experiences at school but what I read I still dont blame RAM for them only ourselves,our personality,our humanity,our common conflicts as have allways had.The knowledge here seems non credible just as you say the teachings can not be proven but they can be experienced as I have experienced. (and yes some people have similar experiences and have nothing to do with school,I understand this..)

I am not content with my lot at RSE I am content with what I learn and grasp and experience,I have had some students pretend to teach what is being teach and I observed they interpreted what was said noyhing like I did.
I am not defending the student body but i am defending the knowledge.It is about me at school for me, not some loser saying they are ascending tomorrow after lunch.

My curiosity is as to why this site exists and the underlying knowledge of which I have yet to see other than normal interactions.

Lets keep posted.

[journeythroughramthaland]

[quote]The experiences i responded very well I thought as I actually was exploring and trying new things and was not afraid at all but some tell me they are (OBE) and this is after I learnt the knowledge,but before school I was petrofied.
Before i learnt they were not beneficial as I thought I was wierd or something was wrong because all i knew then (7-10y old) was that it was the devil or evil.But now completely differnt turn around as I embrace and move with them with confidence,i continue on practicing when they happen EG I was having an obe and could see myself on the bed and all I thought of was refinig the process so I would go back in my body and back out as much as I could to make it common and as natural as I can.[/quote

Hi Swami,
here is a link to a brief explanation of confirmation bias as well as other cognitive biases.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/c/ ... n_bias.htm

You can follow the links for further info.

OBEs are interesting phenomena. Were you aware that scientists have been able to reproduce virtually on demand obes in people by stimulating various parts of their brains??

If you like I can point you to some links with information on that. I believe there are a couple of labs in Australia which participate in those types of studies, you might want to check them out.

The studies have found out that while a person may actually feel like they were out of their body and viewing themselves they are in fact not outside of their body, only manufacturing an image in their brain/mind.

One of the ways they determine this is by placing an item,number,photo on a persons head and seeing if when they have their out of body experience if they can identify it or not.

I have had an OBE and I will describe it as well as the circumstances.

i was working on my boat one summer and my aunt called the boat yard. The yard owner came and told me my Aunt was on the pay phone by the dock. I went to the phone and my aunt (never one to mince words) said my daughter had been seriously injured in a car accident. I fainted and slide down the wall still holding the phone, For some period of time (more then likely a second or 2) i was looking at myself fainted from about 10 feet over my body. I still have a vivid memory of that picture I saw. I had the experience, fortunately for me nobody ever tried to explain it to me and I also assumed at the time what might have happened and most studies would support this.

the information about my daughter being injured, along with the fact that I was in the USA and she was in Germany at the time and only 7 years old and in a life threatening condition was just too much for my brain to process, so somehow it throws the equivalent of a circuit breaker as some sort of survival mechanism. Pretty amazing!

[ex]

since you sb go for the knowledge:when jz was teaching for houers [between bathroooombreaks and wometing]the knowledge could be summerized in 123 sentences like:put beartraps up for burglars and remove the welcome mat.the army schould show pictures from female fighterpilots to schow this muslims...go and write down the knowledge you recived at the next day.ask your fellow students too.after how awsome and great it was there is mostly a big nothing.without pulling your notes there isent much you remember or lets say i was sitting houers for this?.the events just set you up to feel supirier towards your fellow humans.you ever shared your precious knowledge ?.after the entry exitement i was very dissapointed of the level of knowledge.ever got realy sleepy in her audience?ever wondered when sentences go nowere?just stay allert.

[swamibinton]

Thanks journeytroughramthaland.

i understand your phrase my first thoughts on it was that I have experienced this before and i can see how students do this and also non students,as for my obe some maybe derived from my brain but not all as I have had confirmation of what i viewed when out of my body,so i see your point and thank you.

I know at school some things hold doubt and some wont believe ram exists untill they possibly die and possibly meet him as he has quoted,as for other info out there, where has others ascended or performed great feats of unexplainable abilities which boggle the mind,please direct me. dont include yogies,masters of the far east etc but a school which teaches us our underlying abilities and has students and disciplines which defy physics and enhances the human ability and explains so many unknowns that dwell in our world...please direct me.

I am interested in the OBE of scientist and would appreciate a link.

To be bias for me i would not look at other areas and other thoughts as we are doing here as I critically observed the teachings prior to accepting that there is some truth in all this, i was not concerned of some actions of students only is this possible or am I getting had here.
I have seen people leave RSE but it seemed that the underlying point was they didnt succeed and didnt experience as it does take a level of presence and a level of blocking out all the distractions to do this otherwise you are there to be scene and not to evolve. So then the blame goes somewhere and sometimes the school cops it but it still doesnt excuse the level of knowledge being presented by Ram.Ram has said the teachings are thousands of years old and Buddah,Jesus, Alah and many others know this knowledge but the masses get it all mixed up and turn it into a weapon instead of a pure tool.
I have not been in school for 20 years so i cant comment on your experiences that may have changed your mind only mine and I have not had any outstanding things other than normal human interferences that puts so much doubt in my observations.It seems to work for me profoundly(the knowledge I mean) and i dont care if i found it in a homeless person I would still respect that person.

has this site got a chat line?

I seen a personwalk past me who wasnt there,I seen a scene in the mirror,i have seen the cards,i have seen while blindfolded and I smelt the purfume or entities from elsewhere etc etc etc so with these experiences and many others it is hard to believe that it is not happening and that it is a figment of my imagination its something extraordinary and i want to delve as deep as i can to explore more.If i was at church and it happened than i would go to church (I dont think so)

What happened to Dr Joe?

surely some of you have had extraordinary experiences and I would love to here,,maybe we post a new post of extraordinary experiences.

talk soon

[swamibinton]

whatchamacalit

i totally agree that to evolve ourselves is to finally let go of the need for school or any belief and the need to hear from someone else what is within you but i still dont agree of bagging where i started and began my journey not at all.

credit is due where it is acquired and i dont think you or others are being fair that ram desrves credit somewhere in this.

Can you share some of your extraordinary experiences in or out of RSE and give credit to how you achieved this,,love to hear.

i will.

[swamibinton]

journeytroughramthaland

A challenging journey I can relate as I have children as well who have been manipulated for personal gain,i have left a comment on your thread.

swami

[journeythroughramthaland]

Hi Swami,

Actually, I may have been mistaken or have misinterpreted some results I had read some time ago. apparently there were some test done by Charles Tart where he found that some of his subjects WERE able to read numbers during out of body experiences. There is much controversy about his research.

I had thought I had read about someone who had tried to replicate his experiments but was unable to wade through the dearth of material about it and find it.

In any case, you could simply shuffle a deck of cards face down, pick a card, put some sticky tape on the back, close your eyes and put it on the top of your head and produce your OBE and see if you can see the card and let me know how many times, if any you were able to see it correctly.

I have below several studies and articles about NDE and OBE (which occur most often during NDE"s)

I have also included the dates where available as well as a bibliography that has quite a lot of info in it for further research.

As you will see from reading them( I have included some which might support your view) that none of the scientists or researchers mention having gone to a mystery school to learn about the complex subjects they discuss. If you are willing to take the time to read these, I think you will gain a more inclusive perspective of what is out there and available if this is a subject of interest to you. You might also note that many mention that OBE's are also produced through malfunctions of the brain, epilepsy, etc. You might want to consider this if you are continually putting yourself in a state that produces OBE's

I would appreciate hearing about your experiences with your child should you wish to share them.


1968 http://www.psywww.com/asc/obe/missz.html

Original 1987 http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/si87.html

1992 http://users.telenet.be/aura.oasis/targ.htm
1997 http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/randi01.htm

2002 http://friendscommunities.org/archive/i ... -3619.html
2004 http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/con ... /127/2/243
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/329/7480/1414

2007 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 141057.htm


http://obebibliography.info/science.htm

http://science.howstuffworks.com/out-of ... rience.htm

http://scicurious.wordpress.com/2008/05 ... periences/

[/i]

[Whatchamacallit]

swami,

i did answer in a general manner when i already posted to you about how myself and others on this site have talked about the "disciplines" and how we succeeded at them.

however, doing disciplines and becoming an ascended master are not the same thing. reading through cards won't make you a god-man realized.

etc.

give credit where it is due ?

already did that, too, swami. a number of us on here (though i am speaking for myself), have talked about the "good times" that they had at rse. we don't deny that there were good times, or things that we learned that we could keep.

however, i (we) also do what some students dare not, to hold the teachings to a high standard of integrity. we can also "credit" the ram with allowing children to be repeatedly exposed to what i consider is child abuse, ram physically assaulting several adults in audience, at least some of those times it was directly in front of children. there's more. but that alone is a cause for that school to be shut down...........and.......for any thinking person who is not in NEED of making excuses for ramtha's disgusting, human like behavior, to demand that it stop.

again, i will respectfully say to you, that based on your comments it shows me that you haven't read the posts on this forum in any depth. the issues you've raised have been addressed. credit has been given where it was due. however, it appears that you do not want to face the wrongdoing in RSE. perhaps it's best for us to agree to disagree.

[aussiegirl]

Hey guys I dont think anyone has told Swamibinton one very important fact - that RSE is a cult.

Swamibinton if only you knew that the words you are saying are exactly the same as my RSE partner says, they are not individual thoughts at all (I know this because you are almost repeating verbatim what he says to me - I am sure othes on this site could also confirm this) You will not see until you leave the school that it is a cult and that you, with all your knowledge and intelligence were brainwashed. I know that you won't believe me, you would never believe you could be brainwashed but you are no different from most of the people on this site, and if you read through some of the older posts in detail you would see that they too were sincere about the school at one time, some of them for 20 years or more.

Ramtha doesn't exist he is a manifestation of JZ's ego, she is an actress playing a role and if you watch some of the older videos you will see how she slips in and out of character and how the accent changes.

[swamibinton]

Hello watcha & journey etc.

There is an amazing institute called Monroes Institute who actually teach and research OBE on a broard scale.May have to search it a bit as I only looked at it when I first had an OBE.

i dont doubt you saw lots of things at RSE but beside that the teachings stand alone and that really matters. unless i see or it efects me i cant comment much.

What abuse was ram doing?

my wife was at a primary event and a female student got up and shoved Ram and he didnt react at all and the red guards sat he back down and the event continued. I agree lets agree to disagree.

Journey is your daughter still in school?

[Wakeup-Call]

Swamibinton - I'm really encouraged to see a current student show up and have an open, respectful approach to a debate. I know of many people who are afraid to even come to this forum for fear of JZ or her staff finding out and throwing them out of school.

I highly recommend you check out the Derren Brown videos on YouTube. The key is how he plants ideas subconsciously and it looks like he is mind-reading or has special powers.

Has Kenny seen Ramtha? Who can know it's true except Kenny? I know I can say from personal experience of 10 years in school that a description of Ramtha has been given so many times, the image is programmed in every student's mind. And Ramtha "promised" so often to appear to his students when they reached a certain level (which, conveniently, only Ramtha would know when that was). So I can believe that Kenny isn't lying if he says he sees Ramtha (although, I've never heard him say that) - but how does he know it's not a trick of his mind projecting the image he expects to see?

I do an experiment with my nieces and nephews with an empty toilet paper tube to get them to think about how much they should trust their eyes...and to question whether the eyes see or whether the brain sees. You can read how to do it and see a picture here http://www.squizz.com.au/2008/05/02/how ... your-hand/

You can say you have your own experiences as proof of the knowledge. But how do you know if there was really someone in the mirror or if your brain heard the teaching and projected the image you wanted to see in the mirror? How can you know?

I suggest you read the threads on the forum about the Scientific Study of JZ and also on Danielle Graham's studies. My personal conclusion is that if RSE, JZ and Ramtha really had something they would pursue more rigor in their testing. Students are expected to take the vague results of one event of JZ being tested as PROOF, no questions, let's move and not waste time with any further testing. It is implied that students are wasting Ramtha's time (who is supposedly in "no time" so how can we be wasting it), are giving in to doubt, aren't committed to the Great Work by wanting more proof. Why not be independently tested and let the whole world know there is something here to pay attention to - it's all about freedom, isn't it?

You also mentioned the "proofs" Ramtha has offered about his abilities. I fell for this for the longest time. But they are really the lamest pieces of evidence I've ever seen. That he doesn't leave and go to the bathroom for long stretches of time. There is a product called Depends - a grown up diaper. Students have worn them to the Tank in order to relax and know they can relieve themselves without being thrown out of the discipline. Do we know for a fact he's not wearing one?

Next, he can drink and drink and still teach. Well, I can tell you that after going through all those wine ceremonies, I can now drink and drink and drink and still be cogent. It's a great party trick I'm known for among my friends. I can also attest to the fact that Ramtha's behavior when he drank and drank was much like that of a drunk - as can many of the ex-students who post here.

Next, he can teach for long stretches of time. I've had time to contemplate 10 years of events. Ramtha really doesn't teach for long stretches of time. Heck, I could go up and do 2 hours of the typical intro to Beginners. Then, to stretch it, include dancing, eating, drinking, smoking, a walk around the field, turn to your partner and explain, sidebars to the comrades who sit and "argue for their limitations", a walk by Ramtha around the arena, then restate the theme for the evening 5 times, make up some prophecies based on current events, claim credit for current events.

Next, the great knowledge. I used to think this. But in reality, there is basic known science shared that I can get better training on from a college course (or the courses from Teach12.com) than from JZ Knight/Ramtha. But I think the trick is that JZ takes known science and then tosses out her own conjecture or conjecture from her reading of science fiction, other channeled teachings, even scientific conjecture and portrays it as "The Truth" straight from Ramtha who knows all, loves us and is giving us the inside scoop.

What happened to Dr. Joe? Comments on that event can be found elsewhere on the forum. Let us know if you need a hand in finding that thread.

The scary thing to me is that I think JZ is sharing some techniques that probably do affect the brain, but that she has no flippin' idea what those affects are going to be. Elsewhere in this forum, there are several examples. But basically, where the result is something she can put on show, she does - the card readers, for example. Where the result is a mental breakdown, she boots them off her staff and out of school and drops any association with them. Or has Ramtha declare the mental breakdown as a "good" thing that everyone else should aspire to.

The Ramtha personality and show is very convincing and very appealing, at least initiially. Or it would not have drawn so many sincere and intelligent people over the years.

Back to my opening remarks here, I actually find the lack of RSE students who can provide a defense of their beliefs or provide a cogent address to the problems articulated on this forum just further evidence of the scamminess of RSE.

I think something you keep alluding to is the flavor in some of the writings on the forum of anger, disgust and bitterness. I would just say that if you'd been raped (physically, spiritually, financially) or lost important relationships or lost 10-20 years of your best earning years because of RSE that you would be hard pressed to keep the ensuing emotions completely out of your writing.

I feel that people are here posting to deal with their own experiences and to spare other sincere and seeking and gifted folks like yourself the pain and loss we went through. Frankly, I probably have every tape and DVD you would like to get your hands on - I just can't bring myself to put them out on ebay or Craig's list. I think about it... because they would get me a down payment on a house...but I am weighing that against seeing someone get sucked in as deeply as I did.

[journeythroughramthaland]

Aussiegirl,

Hey guys I dont think anyone has told Swamibinton one very important fact - that RSE is a cult.

Come on, don't wrap your comments in so much fluff. LOL

[journeythroughramthaland]

Swami,

My daughter is no longer in the school. We both spoke at the last LARSE meeting and you can view the video of this thru links on the site if you are interested. She also posts on this board and I am sure she would answer any questions you might have.

[ex]

but beside that the teachings stand alone..no they dont.

[aussiegirl]

Journey - I know sometimes you just cant sugar coat it! When I read exactly the same words from someone else that my partner speaks in defense of Ramtha its like listening to robots and its so funny that they think we are the ones who don't know whats really going on.

[swamibinton]

Hey All,
Well please post me to these threads you all mention so i dont spend hours filtering through them all.

Wake up Call.

I have watch many of Darren Browns videos and yes I am concerned overall of his ability and if it is out there by others,are RSE doing this? Not convinced of that.
In the mirror i will tell the story.
I was doing Mirror,candle,cards you all know the process and while focusing say for about 10min i had three images of people in my perifial view (think thats how its spelt) come towards me and I just thought they were others joining in but as they approached and was infront of me they vanished but the third one went to sit where my feet were so i moved them back just as who ever sat down and wamo they were gone,(all in about 30 secs this happened) I felt at ease with it and wasnt going to stop my focus, so on I went and as you know its easy to start to dose off as this was happenning and than I opened my eyes and in the mirror was me,a card (4 spades) on my forehead and one in the top right corner all facing me from the reflection,my card was out of the reflection facing away from me.I viewed it and looked in amazment as the whole seen faded away,so I turned the card and it was the 4 of spades. I havent been convinced this was my brain playing games as I have seen atleast 12 cards and in colour in the discipline but only the once like I just mentioned.
Another was a number clear as can be (again after a short snooze) in the corner and I watch it ever so slowly fade away and I turned over and it was it.

I was focusing one nite and was determined to stay up all nite in focus so on i went,as time got longer my bloody leg started to ache,so with my blinders on I thought "I am going to lay down on the lounge but keep awake and I am not taking off my blinders" so up I got and I took 2 or 3 steps and I was at the other end of my house (about 15 meters away, through 2 doorways) I reached out for the doorway and I hit my TV, confused but aware i must have biolocated,so now I am on the lounge laying down and thought "shit,before I get settled I will get a drink (with blinders on Hoping for another bio) and up i got and instantly I could see through the blinders,as I could see the outline on my blinders around my eyes, but i could see my kitchen,dinning room etc,so then started to adventure in it all and remembered Dr Joe saying "look at youself if you are in an OBE" so I looked back and here i was on the lounge still as still could be and I new at that moment i was in an OBE.
Now fully aware of what was happenning I wanted to walk around so i did,feeling things,checking the place,yes I am in my house and than a thought,again of Dr Joe (stuffed if i know why him) you can go through the wall at this frequency,so around i turned,not scared at all only eger to try,and straight through the wall i went (everything went orange) now i am out in my yard facing away from my house and eger to confirm where I was I turned and NO house only a pile of burning ambers.
I turned back and next thought was to FLY so you bet off I go,and this story goes on for quite a while, but at one time i was above an unfamiliar raod wth houses but the image stayed with me and still does,so after some extraordinary feats and experiences in this OBE I am back in my body fully aware of what just happened and eger to tell someone so Up I get to ring my wife at nite shift and I look out the window and her she comes up the driveway so I looked at the clock and thinking an hour only had passed and it was 4 hours from when i first Bio located.
Now I am self aware again and my whole body was shaking (vibrating) I could feel it but could not see it and my wife couldnt feel anything But i could and slowly it stopped and we talked for hours about it all.

These are just a couple things (I will share more if you like)and my wife has had extraordinary ones as well.
When this happens to you,than it is hard to believe I have been brainwashed.My brain wasnt playing games dont care what is said,I removed the doubt while in the experience through experience.

Rse maybe a cult toyou, but not to me, I have had to many things happen to wipe it from my life.I am not current as i have mentioned but I wont disregard or disrespect what has been taught.

I am not convinced it is what you all say.

When we are at an event we dont mingle much we are very carefull who we associate with,I read the personalities and some are parthetic if they are after something other than to be seen.

All our personal experiences are so different and it is natural for us all to be carefull (I Do Understand)

Talk soon

[Robair]

Hello Swami
First it is great that you are open enough to have a PARLER with us.
I have read all your post an must admit with no intention of being insulting, and can safely say that all of us have be there done that.

At the end of your last post you mention and I Quote (All our personal experiences are so different) that quote hit me as I strugled with that in my years in the school,as you known ether we want to admit it or not there is competition in the school as achivement is concern.
Coming back to the quote and my strugle is that the Ram did a teaching in early 1990 on that call THE NEED TO BE DIFFERENT,an A MASTER NEVER TELL that stock with me ever since.
After that teaching I strated not telling and not be different, not realizing by doing so that I was still trying to be different, what a confusing circle to be in for a real master like I was.
I am happy to see you here
Oldone

[journeythroughramthaland]

Swami,

I am not convinced it is what you all say

.

I don't think that we are attempting to convince you of anything. We are sharing our experiences. This brings up several questions though.

Are you looking to be convinced? Are you aware of groups that you would consider cults? If you are, how do you feel about what they teach? In what sort of circumstance would you be convinced?

And again, if you have a chance I would like to hear about your experiences with your children.

[G2G]

G'day, swami and very nice to have an open discussion with you. I have been reading your experiences at RSE and certainly identify with such experiences. Mind you though I had oob's since I was a child, maybe even biolocating when my parents had me with them while shopping. One moment I closed my eyes. The next it or so it seeme the next moment I was outside in the street crying with a crowd and policeman around me and my parents frantically running to me. I don't remember to this day just HOW I traveled to the middle of a street from the inside of a store in a strip mall. I also could view myself from outside of me and my family thought I was crazy or having some kind of anxiety attacks since they didn't understand. I was put on phenobarbitol when I was just going through puberty because of these events my parents had me explain to a doctor. My mom, sisters, aunts and me have always had (no pun intended) a very strong sense of intuition and it continues to this day. I have dreams that come to be. The movie WTB is what got me interested in RSE. I only wanted to learn to enhance what I already had and maybe learn to heal, as we were taught outside of RSE can be done. My beginners event was fun but turned unnerving when JZ as Ramtha@ spat onstage, punched a guy in the chest in front of his wife and children and used such profanity in front of impressionable teenagers and wee ones. One woman who was a student for awhile said she would have walked out if it were her first event (I guess she was getting current again).

This brings me to my point. All of the things we experiences at RSE have already been experienced by many over the eons. Some of us experienced them before going to RSE thinking RSE would enhance this. The there are no seatbelts here was a good hook at a beginners. Little did I know at the time there were no seatbelts but cages for the mind. My experiences as I progressed in just one year while going to many events culminated in my not returning because what I realized I was witness to was abuse and corruption and if RSE's teaching that we are gods, then so was I and who were they to tell me what to do? I should be able to go toe-to-toe with the big guy and anyone else if this is the case.

I also was able to accept some teachings due to my background in eastern religions. This dovetailed with jzrk's add-ons. Take someone down? This was a god talking? what kind of supremeness would frighten the minions. How could staff so blatantly verbally abuse students, (I add not all staff did). Jzrk, from my place of viewing 'outside of me' was this isn't teaching the tenets of divinity. It was just outright nasty. The rest of my story is on the old board archives. I already had what RSE taught before I got there plus more. I had more compassion and love before RSE which I am thankful has returned after over a year of churning. "Do unto others as you would wish unto you" -maybe not quoted exactly but this is how I choose to live, not to be a god but to just be a decent human being because whatever we are 'elsewhere' - right here and now, we are human, including jzrk.

[tree]

after having spent 20 years in the school, I STILL do not see the point to any OOBE, or smelling perfume
from another dimension, nor reading through cards, nor seeing some scene from some other time in a mirror..
so what? what do these abilities do for anyone other than pseudo bragging rights for jz knight and rse?

what is the point of spending hours walking?

I watched this dude EVERY day for 3 hours walking up and down the road for months on end.
Did he get any richer? younger? smarter? did he raise the dead? did he contribute in any way to a philanthropic
organization? big fat NO .

[HumblePied Piper]

Hi again. The reference to RSE being a cult -- defining cult, as JourneyTR has stated, may enlighten you to your own awareness of the dysfunctional learning. It is a closed loop -- the learning comes from JZ to the students without accountability by the teacher. If you don't understand, then you are not enlightened, not focused, not aware, not living the teaching... and, of course, without the chance to sit with the teacher and question (exception, unless you pay $172,000 for a 1 hour session -- which still will probably stifle questioning ability). No accountability.

The true lessons that are a part of the school seem to be used as confirmation of truth for the other garbage that can be proven defunct.

She is her own God, and Ramtha is the word she uses to manipulate her subjects. It is my theory that people looking to make sense of the universe are susceptible to mind manipulation. There are many studies on hypnotism:personality. I look at it nearly the same as fundamental Christianity, or fundamental Islam, etc... The belief that this is the way, and it is the only way, and if you are not with us, you are either against us or less than us.

Thanks for the thread, it is helping me understand some of my partner's view on RSE.
Hpp

[journeythroughramthaland]

humble,

If you don't understand, then you are not enlightened, not focused, not aware, not living the teaching... and, of course, without the chance to sit with the teacher and question (exception, unless you pay $172,000 for a 1 hour session -- which still will probably stifle questioning ability). No accountability.

even that, think about it. You can bring 9 people, that would make 10 people, think about how much time one might actually have to question in one hour..........

[Wakeup-Call]

Swami, happy to help you with some links.

So now - you explained in depth some of your experiences. I don't think anyone here would try to invalidate your personal experience, just like you acknowledged you are not seeking to invalidate ours.

So let's go to the next logical step of inquiry. What I see you doing is this form of logic...
1) I had these specific experiences that I can describe in detail; I know I did not make them up - TRUE
2) I learned about these types of experiences at RSE from Ramtha - TRUE
3) I learned methods at RSE that Ramtha told me would lead to these types of experiences - TRUE
4) THEREFORE, there is a correlation between my experiences and what I learned from Ramtha
5) THEREFORE, Ramtha and his teachings are valid

It is your leap to #4 and #5 that I would encourage you to examine because these are logic fallacies. That is not my opinion. These fallacies can be learned in a college-level Logic course.

I recommended the Teach12.com site elsewhere on the forum for high quality, affordable, college-level courses. Here is the link to the one on Effective Reasoning.
http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDescL ... %20History

Have you noticed that we keep bringing up "critical thinking"? This is what students are encouraged, even programmed via NLP techniques like Derren Brown uses, to suspend at RSE.

What I believe you are doing is limiting your examination only to your evidence. You are not examining your inferences - the way you are arriving at #4 and #5. In my opinion, you have accepted the inferences and explanations handed to you by JZ Knight/Ramtha for your experiences, aka your evidence.

This is why repeatable scientfic studies using scientific methodology including peer review are essential to validating the inferences and conclusions proffered by JZ/Ramtha. And JZ will not do it. And Danielle Graham's work is sloppy and hyped.

At last, you say, here come the links...
Danielle Graham's Studies - http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... .php?t=329
The 1998 JZ funded study of JZ, Ramtha and students - http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... c.php?t=78

The day Ramtha encourages students to study effective reasoning, to engage in rational controversy will be the day I believe there is "something deeper" to find in the teachings.

So here is my challenge to you: switch up your conversation here in the forum. We completely "get you" on your points #1, #2 and #3. Instead, explain how it is rational and logical to arrive at #4 and #5.

There is a thread where we chatted about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Personally, I had all I was going to get out of the first year or two, the next 10 are lost years and sad to me right now. It sounds like you got what you needed on your path and are pursuing it without the school now. I think that's great - you'll be spared a lot of wasted expense and additional subjection to mind control methods. If you want to think "I owe a lot to Ramtha" that's your prerogative. My point is that you can't provide evidence for your causal conclusions. Again, please hear me. I'm not saying you don't have experiential evidence, I'm saying I don't believe you will be able to build a cogent, logical case for your inference. Why? Because the logici supports that JZ is a fraud, an actress and/or a schizophrenic.

You can learn more about what happened to Dr. Joe here http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... .php?t=277

If you have questions on other stories or aspects of the school, please let us know and we'll find the thread where they are discussed or discuss them with you anew.

[aussiegirl]

Wakeup Call - what brilliant logic! I am always at a bit of a loss when my partner says he has experienced things for himself and that I have no right to question that (although I usually do anyway, after all there is no doubt our mind can play tricks on us)

That candle in the mirror thing - I didn't know that had anything to do with RSE, my partner has never mentioned it but I used to do it for fun when I was a child,with friends at sleepovers (amongst ouija boards and telling scary stories) used to scare the **** out of me.

I am with Tree though what is the point of all these tricks! How is it making your life enlightened? Are you healthy, wealthy and wise because you have these experiences, if JZ taught you to walk on a tightrope would you be amazed and follow her teachings? By all means go to a school to learn some tricks (Circus schools are everywhere) but your ability to create the best life for yourself is within you, ditch the crazy lady and her butch act. Look in the mirror with the light on and wake up to the fact you are being conned by a professional con woman.

[G2G]

A very good question, indeed! How have any of these experiences, in or out of RSE, aided in any manner? I agree with AussieGirl, that some of these experiences are just downright frightening. So what if one has an obe or can remote view, how does this help all and one? So what if we can find a card on the fence blindfolded? That is the making of a so-called "Christ?" We keep searching, when what we are is already within, be it here or elsewhere.

Swami - whatever you've experienced is due to you, and you alone. Ask yourself, what have you or the world gained by these experiences?

[Whatchamacallit]

TSwami,

As for Ramtha going for hours upon hours without toileting...you need to understand something that I think others on this forum can validate.

Ramtha DOES NOT go for those lengths of time without toileting. People have talked about either helping Ramtha go PEE OUTSIDE THE DOOR "HE" ENTERS, and also being helped IN the WOMEN'S bathroom out in the back hallway.

If I am wrong in this statement, someone please let me know and I will delete the post.

As for having wonderful spiritual/psychic/paranormal experiences...I've already told you that I've succeeded at all but a very few disciplines in the school. However, I was aware of being "psychic" before I ever went to RSE. It is BECAUSE I am, that I even gave RSE consideration. I also said (but will repeat), that I am not special as many people have done the same. Why ? Because it's pretty much a given that in enough time, people are going to accomplish those things. We are physical/mental/emotional/spiritual beings with a sixth sense. Nothing new there. It's also the HOOK for students who do the "basics", because then they may become passionate about chasing the carrot (the extreme claims), and live their lives doing what NOBODY in the school has ever achieved.

Does that mean that the EXTREME claims (total pseudoscience) that RSE spouts, such as bilocation, dematerialization, ascension, healing ANY disease, manifesting from the thin air, etc., on any type of consistent basis, is what people can assume they WILL accomplish simply by doing what the teacher claimed s/he designed TO WORK (succeed) SIMPLY by application ? No, not at all. Therein lies the fraud.

That is why the teachings, overall, are a waste of time and money; that can never be retrieved as it was.

OF COURSE people who come to the realization that they teachings are filled with some truth and lots of false promises, false hope, are angry at some level. As they work through it, OF COURSE it will be posted on here and read by others. That's to be expected, and it's normal. NOT facing the truth of RSE's LIMITATIONS is not healthy, and possibly not normal - if it becomes delusional.

There is much truth to the comments about how if JZ/Ramtha were REAL and LEGIT, that they would WELCOME unbiased scrutiny of the claims made relative to "both" of them, individually. For example, if you believe Jesus really existed, and the stories therein, you will know that Jesus never asked anyone to accept his words on faith alone, because he was big bad Jesus who said what he said so you should believe it. No. The story about Jesus' teaching is one of DEMONSTRATION.

I'm not promoting any religion here; just making an analogy.

The bottom line is this: the Real Deal would have enough respect and consideration for the public, that when coming to this planet to teach something, there would be a quick willingness to RESPECT THE HEALTHY DOUBT shown by those giving the Real Deal consideration. Unwillingness to do so, except where JZ has had control over it all, does not prove that there even is a Ramtha, nevermind that Ramtha exists and is telling/teaching 100% truth !

[Whatchamacallit]

The "candle work" that was taught at RSE with mirrors, is (surprise!) not new to RSE, or unique. In Wicca, it's a common practice.

Tree talked about how are the "successes" (in the disciplines) helping you in your daily life, Swami. Exactly. They are TRAPPINGS. Whether you do them or not, you still have to live the HUMAN-NESS of your life, which doesn't need the trappings.

[swamibinton]

Hi all,
Ok, I will firstly try and answer 4 & 5.(rational & logical)

4.THEREFORE, there is a correlation between my experiences and what I learned from Ramtha.

I had never heard or related DEEPLY to what was being taught by ram before I went to school,so after I learnt Not about OBE,Cards<candle etc only a different view of life and our possible abilities and what has been done before through out the ages, i then started to have experiences and once the cards and candle was incorporated i then experienced them.
I have NEVER heard RAM or JZ say they were their inventions or there way and the only way,I only heard a different view of life and very reasonable at that.Like I have said if it was YOU who taught or educated me than I would be in your face wanting to know more. Of course its rational & logical for me as this is were I got the wake up call and started questioning all things in my life and reasoning with Rams teaching and it is reasonable. I "get You All" that this is not the only place to hear it from or were it is spoken.If someone said to me, before the teachings "you can teleport,see while blindfolded etc I possible would have dissmissed them and told them to get lost "ya bloody fool" But then I heard that this just maybe TRUE and it is, as for what you can do with these abilities or tricks as some call them,than if you cant see the benefits then go figure yourself. Obviously these TRICKS dont bring enlightenment but add to the confidence and ability to become enlightened or GREATER.
Ramtha is delivering a message not for him but for all to look at and possibly grasp.For me its about the message.

5.THEREFORE, Ramtha and his teachings are valid (fair dinkum)

How can I not say they are not valid when I have experienced THEM and you have too so is it said that "if I experience something it is not valid" not for me, as the experience determines if they are valid.
I am very reserved to comment sometimes at length due to the fact that it is related to what is taught which is very reasonable and I am fully aware that all his words are only philosophy and need to be experienced to become valid.
I see students in the school for a long time and get nothing in actual experience and it is straight way blamed on what is being taught and not the fact that the student is not present or paying attention or most importantly BELIEVING IT.

As for convincing me I am not after that (even tho I said it) i am trying to understand that you all think it is crap (The message and RSE)
I have viewed some other teachings while not on line and I just cannot believe that something extraordinary isnt happening at the school besides all the normal humanity crap that is seen EVERYWHERE, For JZ faking it well she deserve a medal of GENIUS if she is false, ( nothing for me on evidence on this)for someone to go to such lenghts and for so long is outrageous. Also all i see is of how they both are trying to improve peoples lifes and yes some end up worse than before but as soon as somethings doesnt go our way than we set blame eleswhere instead of taking responsibility for OUR actions.
We must have logic and reason in our decisions and if ram said to jump of the cliff but have faith in what you have learnt then I know where I am at, so I wouldnt jump off the cliff I would say GET STUFFED.I dont believe I am getting brainwashed as i still reason as I have allways done and if they are than I LIKE IT.

As for inference I only concluded by reasonable evidence and the evidence post on this site is also a casual conclusion.

I often take Ram out of the equation and still all i learn is very reasonable knowledge and conclusions.I am not in this for RAM or JZ only my better understanding.

My vocation was a builder of MUlti Million dollar projects and I was well respected and handed all the work others cringed at and in this role I soon learnt how to decifer and handle pressure from others,but it also taught me that with more experience I could acheive greater things and this is the carrot dangling for me in the teachings or any other teachings,it didnt matter where i was working or who for but the consistency of striving for greater challenges that inspired me, and i get this at the school.

Most of these comments are MONEY related and that saddens me,as for $172K to be with ram well it was for charity(CSE) just like others who do this, like some who pay 1million for some painting the artist clean their brushes on.( SO WHAT)

So do you really think you CREATE REALITY ? or do you just take out of the teachings what serves you or what doesnt push your buttons.
Isnt evolution or enlightenment the act of understanding it all and including parts which anger us to resentment and then conquering all these aspects to become a greater person in the face of any challenge? ( IN LIGHT OF)

So quantum physics I suppose you have heard JZ or Ram say that they made it up and it is the schools knowledge,I dont think you have and i dont think they take credit for all that is taught at the school maybe only some disciplines.

So as the ram says "If you have something better to offer than be my guest" not a debate about brain washing or the school is a cult,wasi it not proven that it wasnt ? and I dont get that feeling I am being had i just get inspired.
As for people who read this post dont react untill you have experienced.

I am on the outside and am striving to better my knowledge and i look elsewhere but others dont inspire me like the ram.
I take it as a stepping stone but i dont condem the ram at all, he is real there is to much (outside of our buttons being pushed)personal experience for us all to doubt it.
Dont let our altered ego get in the way,it is fine to disscuss somethings we dont agree with but to put a sign up that its a cult,brainwashing or a ripp off is just copying what is allready out there in the world.
I have never heard anyone talk about Jesus like ram does and I didnt even believe he existed but i do now and i can even see his underlying message which is the same as what ram talks about (and of course others)

fraud I DONT THINK SO.

untill next chat may we all be well and wise.

[swamibinton]

G2G,
The individual achieves a confidence in themselves and as ram teaches to be giving and impeccable etc,if we all did a lot of these things there would be no need for police,jails,lawers etc.
the experience adds wisdom and understanding to the individual and AIDS in evolveing oneself.

aussie girl were are you from!

[swamibinton]

bACK AGAIN HAD TO EAT,
i must apologise for not commenting on all that has been said to me here and will try to address most items.

We all know of the wierd and wacky world of QM and how unexplainable this is yet we still stand to believe it is true and regards to the teachings well i see a similar way.
i can see the issues some maybe facing which allows them to be against RSE but if issues are apparent in ones life shouldnt we be asking why it effects me.
I had an assistant once who was with me while i was approached by a member of the public on a project i was building and he was extremly abusive to us both,he wasnt aware who was boss so i made it clear to him to address his issues to me but he consistently was keeping eye contact with my assistant untill we finished and my friend was extremely effected by what happened,some time went on and i saw a situation where he now (my friend)was playing the role of this tyrant public member and i saw this in him,the point of it all was that i never understood why the tyrant was attracted to him untill Ram taught about other people as a mirror of who we are and isnt it fine to say that the things ram does to others maybe for a reason other than contradiction of the teachings? As scarkus does to jesus in the nine faces of christ,,,why does he treat him so narsty,the answer is in the book for those who havent read it yet.
Do we know that ram may simply be allowing to JZ if the actions are correct of her,she is only human for now and striving like us all, some comments are very similar about JZ as what you are implying JZ does!

Ram has been very consistent with his words (or words of the ancient) maybe he is simply being at our level and teaching but we cant see the trees for the forest.it is possible.
I have and i am sure many of you have had situations where someone says something and its like water off a ducks back but a person near you will be totally wrecked by someone comments.
I dont endorse ram swearing or abusing but i ask why? if someone says in a calm way "i dont like you" and then says in a calm way "I dont like you ya f**** fat s*** ya c***s******* mother f**"then whats the differnece if only a phrase of words or really is it what pushes our buttons which is the real reason,i think the later.
Are these issues truely with RSE being a cult or what ever or is it the underlying button not being addressed and blame shifted so as not to take responsibility.

Watcha etc

i know that yes the candle and mirror wasnt invented by RSE ram said that and he also said how from ancient times that ponds and water was used were there wasnt any mirrors, (i read this as showing us proof that it is a common practise not made up by him alone)same with archery,c&e,what was jesus doing in 9 faces christ, when he was engaging the breath,C&E i would think,and what was apolonius of tiana doing when he dissapeared when next to jesus and the council.
the way jesus was ridiculed in his day seems very familiar,if ram is who he says he is than he allready is wise to these judgements.
To All
Judgements as i see it and if you all understand that we have this orb in the back of our heads than when I judge somebody I am judging the same orb which is in them so I am judging myself hence the mirror of others. This is my perception of it and is very reasonable to clear up the mystery.

The successes of the disciplines allow me to move my judgement by filtering out those voices and able to not be thinking for days on someones comment and creating this drama in my mind of bullshit.if they trap you in some way it is beyond me as they only help me,i still live my humanness but at a more joyfull level,havent you done a discipline and then seen the reality alter in days ahead,,I have!
i had psychic things as well but didnt understand them and now i do,it is a calming effect when you realise waht was happening years ago when you thought you were going nutty.

"Nobody in the school has never achieved" well what about nobody in the world ever achieving what jesus has done,you know his truth (except a few like buddah) does it matter to you all that you must raise the dead in a couple of years at school,all who are able to do this took their time and a good part of their life to do it.

Ram said he designed some of the disciplines not designed the teachings as a whole!

It is by application but the level required is to be born again(you know) being completely spiritual,the orb we are. how do ya get there well you have heard,how can one achieve if they are not applying themselves impeccably,here lies the challenge.
Why do we need to see to believe is not it better experinec and know.
G2G,, the basis of the knowledge is taught to search WITHIN.
I have gained personal integrity and a part of me which I didnt know existed as for the world then PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
aussiegirl how can you comment on something you havent experienced or have you been to RSE?

Wakeup-call
Ram never told me or I heard that these experinces would come from the disciplines only to do them passionately.
hope you dont think i am out for approval quite the opposite. Ram has allways taught to work with pure reasoning and to question everything and so i do.

i dont see myslf as against anyone or better than any of you all or with you or them, i dont know where you got that from but from your own self judgement.
i read about joe was interesting but have a QUESTION.
Why isnt Joe here on this site or is he?
If JZ has such a gripe with him then why flash his face all over the tv in her interview and why is he still mentioned at events and why did ram encourage him with his book,he maybe dealing with JZ's personality but he would be one who may have seen ram for real.
tree.
If you could have an OBE at will than you may catch you partner having an affair while your in another country but able to describe it to them in detail (just joking)The point i see is to do it at WILL,theres agreat book called "the adventures beyond the body" yes from school.Jesus was human too ya know.

Journey etc

Not after the convincing bit,I am aware of some groups who are labeled as CULTS but have not been involved or experienced to comment on them,however if i couldnt experience something out of the normal mundane of social consc than i wouldnt be convinced there was anything new I was looking for.
My brother is a mason and he invited me to a meeting which I accepted and then i said my wife is comming and he said "this time is ok" and i said if a women isnt excepted in your lodge then i dont want to go either.He dont talk to me much now..
My daughter was (what i call brainwashed) controlled to leave home and live elsewhere,then abused mentally and physically and i couldnt do a thing,i got in such a rage over it I was ready to damage someone but i then realised i was as bad as them and let go of the situation and she came back wiser tha ever.

oldone
thanks for your comments.
Do u think that amaster never tells as to not become a victum of their own acheivements by others ridiculing them or by the doubt others may imply to them,if someone else cant do it than it is easy to be bagged for something which is a normal thing but not achieved by many.

So how do you all think we achieve enlightenment?

Talk soon
swami from down under.

[tree]

As for convincing me I am not after that (even tho I said it) i am trying to understand that you all think it is crap (The message and RSE)

I, for one, am not trying to convince you of anything.

I do find your logic to be that of many people in groups of which follow a non-scientific sequence of what RSE is "logic".

Logic is the study of the principles of valid inference and demonstration.
As a formal science, logic investigates and classifies the structure of statements and arguments, both through the study of formal systems of inference and through the study of arguments in natural language. The field of logic ranges from core topics such as the study of validity, fallacies and paradoxes, to specialized analysis of reasoning using probability and to arguments involving causality.
Since the mid-nineteenth century formal logic has been studied in the context of foundations of mathematics.

Form is central to logic. It complicates exposition that 'formal' in "formal logic" is commonly used in an ambiguous manner. Symbolic logic is just one kind of formal logic, and is distinguished from another kind of formal logic, traditional Aristotelian syllogistic logic, which deals solely with categorical propositions.

Informal logic is the study of natural language arguments. The study of fallacies is an especially important branch of informal logic. The dialogues of Plato[5] are a good example of informal logic.
Formal logic is the study of inference with purely formal content, where that content is made explicit. (An inference possesses a purely formal content if it can be expressed as a particular application of a wholly abstract rule, that is, a rule that is not about any particular thing or property. The works of Aristotle contain the earliest known formal study of logic, which were incorporated in the late nineteenth century into modern formal logic.[6] In many definitions of logic, logical inference and inference with purely formal content are the same. This does not render the notion of informal logic vacuous, because no formal logic captures all of the nuance of natural language.)
Symbolic logic is the study of symbolic abstractions that capture the formal features of logical inference.[4][7] Symbolic logic is often divided into two branches, propositional logic and predicate logic.
Mathematical logic is an extension of symbolic logic into other areas, in particular to the study of model theory, proof theory, set theory, and recursion theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

logic in cults:

6 CONDITIONS THAT NEED TO BE PRESENT IN ORDER TO CONSTITUTE MIND
CONTROL:

1. CONTROL OVER TIME
Especially thinking time
Use techniques to get a person to think about:
. the group
. beliefs of the group
as much of their waking time as possible

2. CREATE A SENSE OF POWERLESSNESS
Get people away from normal support systems for a period of time
Provide models of behavior (cult members)
Use in-group language
Use of songs, games, stories the person is unfamiliar with or they are
modified so that they're unfamiliar
New people tend to want to be like others (acceptance, feeling part
of a group)

3. MANIPULATE REWARDS, PUNISHMENTS, EXPERIENCES IN ORDER TO
SUPPRESS OLD SOCIAL BEHAVIOR
Manipulate: social rewards
intellectual rewards
REWARDS: support positive self-concept for conformity to new
thought system
PUNISHMENTS: attack person's self-concept for non-conformity

Effects of behavioral modification (reward/punishment):
DEPLOYABLE AGENT:
1. accept a particular world view
2. procedures for peer monitoring w/feedback to group
3. psychological, social & material sanctions to influence the
target's behavior

When there is control of external feedback, the group becomes the
only source
-- there are no reality checks

BEHAVIORS REWARDED: participation, conformity to ideas/behavior,
zeal, personal changes

BEHAVIORS PUNISHED: criticalness, independent thinking,
non-conformity to ideas/behavior

PUNISHMENTS: peer/group criticism, withdrawal of support/affection,
isolation, negative feedback

THE PERSON IS DEPENDENT UPON THE GROUP FOR EXTERNAL
VALIDATION OF SOCIAL IDENTITY

RESULTS: confusion, disorientation, psychological disturbances

Manipulate experience:
altered states of consciousness (trance)
hypnosis
Hypnosis: (see Ericksonian hypnosis)
speaking patterns
guided imagery
pacing of voice to breathing patterns
parables, stories with imbedded messages
repetition
boredom
stop paying attention to distractions, focus
inwardly to what's going on inside you
the use of one's voice to get people's attention
focused
Chanting, Meditation
Teach thought-stopping techniques
Work them up emotionally to a negative state:
re-experience past painful events
recall negative actions/sin in past life
Then rescue them from negative emotion by giving them a new
way to live

4. MANIPULATE REWARDS, PUNISHMENTS, EXPERIENCES IN ORDER TO
ELICIT NEW BEHAVIOR
Models will demonstrate new behavior
Conformity: dress, language, behavior
Using group language will eventually still the thinking mind

5. MUST BE A TIGHTLY CONTROLLED SYSTEM OF LOGIC
No complaints from the floor
Pyramid shaped operation with leader at the top
Top leaders must maintain absolute control/authority
Persons in charge must have verbal ways of never losing
Anyone who questions is made to think there is something
inherently wrong with them to even question
Phobia induction:
something bad will happen if you leave the group
if you leave this group, you're leaving God
Guilt manipulation

[tree]

lastly and most important:

6. PERSONS BEING THOUGHT REFORMED MUST BE UNAWARE THAT THEY
ARE BEING MOVED THROUGH A PROGRAM TO MAKE THEM DEPLOYABLE
AGENTS, TO BUY MORE COURSES, SIGN UP FOR THE DURATION, ETC.

You can't be thought reformed with full capacity, informed
consent
You don't know the agenda of the group at the beginning or the
full content of the ideology

http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions

now, THIS is a methodology of logic.

no RSE verbage.
no so-being anything.
no making cards.
no listening to Yanni hours on end while breathing rhythmically.

You can't be thought reformed with full capacity, informed
consent
You don't know the agenda of the group at the beginning or the
full content of the ideology

hence, all RSE students being "red in the rainbow."
It is done without your knowledge or understanding.

This logic is by far, entirely different from what I term my own personal experiences of the last 20 plus years.

If I were to extol the virtues and wisdom of all my experiences, it would be a purely subjective
piece that cannot be contained in a mathematical formula.

Although, the thinking processes of the brain itself in those 20 years can be.
And that is called thought reform.

Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism. Robert J. Lifton, M.D.,
University of N.C., Chapel Hill, 1989

Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism. Robert J. Lifton, M.D.,
University of N.C., Chapel Hill, 1989

[aussiegirl]

Swami - I live in Melbourne

To all of the past students, can you see yourselves in Swami's words, justifying the school and the whole act? Its almost my partners words verbatim. RSE does a brilliant job of manipulating minds and turning people into robots who all sound the same. Swami as for it being a brilliant acting job, come on, its not that hard. She has been playing a part for over 20 years, its easy to slip into character (and whats with the accent changing over the years - how can you possibly believe she is channelling, its such a con).

[Wakeup-Call]

Swami - wow, all I can say is "there's no convincing the convinced." Your defense of your inferences would earn you an F in a college course on reasoning. I guess if in 7 years you or Greg Simmons is levitating at will, bilocating at will, manifesting in your hand at will, or walking through walls at will, and you accomplish that by only applying Ramtha's taught methods, then I will think you have something of substance to share.

Aussiegirl - yes, I was thinking just that when I read Swami's latest posts. I could hear myself saying the same things over the past years. The example of Skakus - that the rudest, foulest, cruelist being was really the most loving. Right, how silly of me. What was it Skakus said? "Jesus, you've been PUNKED!"

[tree]

To all of the past students, can you see yourselves in Swami's words, justifying the school and the whole act?

this is
EXACLTY how I sounded just over a year ago.
great case in point.

In fact, after reading swami's remarks, I was refelcting in the few months after I left rse how much some of my verbage still sounded like his.
of course, I was past the point of defending rse, but the words smacking me in my own face.
the defense mechanisms were identical.

wait! I think I am remote viewing aussiegirl's partner!!! (jk)

[Whatchamacallit]

My responses are going to be in PINK for ease of reading.


SwamiB said, "Watcha etc

i know that yes the candle and mirror wasnt invented by RSE ram said that and he also said how from ancient times that ponds and water was used were there wasnt any mirrors, (i read this as showing us proof that it is a common practise not made up by him alone)same with archery,c&e,what was jesus doing in 9 faces christ, when he was engaging the breath,C&E i would think,and what was apolonius of tiana doing when he dissapeared when next to jesus and the council. that is a story; not necessarily a fact.
the way jesus was ridiculed in his day seems very familiar,if ram is who he says he is than he allready is wise to these judgements.
i'm not talking about holding judgements. i'm talking about proving credibility and veracity of one's claims to be an ascended god (who hasn't evolved beyond the CHOICE to swear, engage base sexually graphic language in front of children, physically assault adults, also in front of children, etc) ramtha has not proven his credentials to the entire audience(s), but he expects people to pay to attend events, when "he" doesn't need money, and ACCEPT what he teaches. what university do you know of that would allow that ? yet rse calls itself a SCHOOL. as an informed consumer/customer, i EXPECT a BUSINESS such as rse to be held to the same standard as any other busines offering products, services and CLAIMS. they need to be held accountable for goods not delivered...and 30 years is plenty of time for "graduation" to occur. yet, none has. that, swami, should bother you greatly.

To All
Judgements as i see it and if you all understand that we have this orb in the back of our heads than when I judge somebody I am judging the same orb which is in them so I am judging myself hence the mirror of others. This is my perception of it and is very reasonable to clear up the mystery.

this response is nothing more that ramtha-speak. you've been indoctrinated well.

The successes of the disciplines allow me to move my judgement by filtering out those voices and able to not be thinking for days on someones comment and creating this drama in my mind of bullshit.if they trap you in some way it is beyond me as they only help me,i still live my humanness but at a more joyfull level,havent you done a discipline and then seen the reality alter in days ahead,,I have!
i had psychic things as well but didnt understand them and now i do,it is a calming effect when you realise waht was happening years ago when you thought you were going nutty.

it is my opinion that it's sad that your realization about what has happened to explain the psychic phenomenon in your life, came from rse. it could have also come from other sources, but that was your first one, and unfortunately, now you attribute your "credit" to rse, when in fact you could have realized it from other sources, even for free. charles haanel (who is now deceased) has a website that offers a lot of the same philosophy as rse, which far predated rse, and is nearly for free. if you read the material (this is not an endorsement), and you accept it as valid, then it's simply up to you to excerise the concepts haanel presents. for example, had you come across THAT resource, instead of rse, you could be in the same situation as you are in now, without the marketing strategy of a nebulous, ascended god-man who Knows More Than You Do and whom you NEED for your hierophant in order to evolve.

you remind me of the children's story, where a duck is born and ends up with a goose for a mother. the duck doesn't know any better, so it attributes all "mother" qualities to the goose. but the duck's mother isn't the goose. you attribute all "credit" to ramtha, instead of to yourself, for searching for answers. don't stop at ramtha, i say. use it as a stepping stone and find other resources that are more personally empowering and that don't encourage financial, emotional and physical presence and support FROM you so that it exists (rse, that is). rse needs YOU; you don't need rse.


"Nobody in the school has never achieved" well what about nobody in the world ever achieving what jesus has done,you know his truth (except a few like buddah) does it matter to you all that you must raise the dead in a couple of years at school,all who are able to do this took their time and a good part of their life to do it.

swami, jesus only was alleged to have said that "all of these things i do, so shall you do and even greater things shall you do." he didn't say WHEN, or HOW, it was a nebulous statement that theologians debate to this day. ramtha did say that he DID design all of the disciplines to work, and that all we had to do, is do them. he did NOT put qualifiers on it, such as "it won't work if..." as a matter of fact, he said that if you do the disciplines AND say that you ask for "whatever" your manifesting, in his name, it WILL be given unto you. swami, that is a fact that he said that. i heard it and so did many others. he further said that within seven years, we would achieve t he claims he made. when the seven years came and went, and rumors were flying around about it, he then addressed the issue of seven years, again. he said that it did not work because the students were "less than" and substandard and didn't "get it". he invalidated the students, instead of taking responsibility that he failed as a teacher. then again, at a later date, he openly stated that he has failed in his mission.

now, swami, all of this is ASSUMING that there even is a "ramtha". that is yet another debate !!! i'm being flexible for the sake of communication, with the presumption that he exists. i'm not endorsing it.

Ram said he designed some of the disciplines not designed the teachings as a whole!"

that's not true, as i just addressed, above.

[swamibinton]

Well hi all,
Point Taken.

I cant get my head around the fact that all this is about mind control and money,

to go to such extent to manipulate and give false hope is beyond me.

yes a lot of points tree made are valid points to ponder and i will.

Do i get an F for failure or Fabulous? (ha ha)

Ok lets change a bit to the point that you still dont hear me I know I dont need RSE ( otherwise i would be current) but can you understand that I give Ram credit for what I learnt regardless if he is false or not I still believe there is a lot of truth in what he says or what anyone says on the same subject. that doesnt seem to change!

So you are saying even what is said is false?
Do you beleive the level he speakd about on QM is valid or nonvalid?

swami

[swamibinton]

Hi All,
Tree

Are those your words or from an encylopedia.

Now so here is JZ at an early age,very poor and in search of god.
She starts to ponder how can i become rich.
after sometime having boyfriends and etc, she meets a dentist and her life becomes more abundant and possibly well off,starts breeding horseys and makes a modest living.
this is not enough "i want to be richer"
So she concocks this idea, I will pretend to channel some fella,lets call him Ramtha and hes a barbarian etc.
While i am doing this I may just as well include MIND CONTROL (whats that big book the encyclopedia say about this)
So if i do this,this & this i have got them all, and I will be the queen of all these people who fall for it.
also i better research things a bit and make up some tricks and games to fool them all!

Come on people,we are smarter then that.

then she pays all these people (who she has mind control over) and gets them to lecture on proving her stuff.

Years later the people are getting that she is faking it so she just says anything but not actually justify it,but anyway they will fall for it.
meantime i will travel the world expose her fraud to everyone HOPING that one day no one calls her on her stuff.
Thats it Larry King his audience wont want to have more proof,they are nerds who just watch tv and die, thats it thats the show i will go on.
And as well she encourages some doods to make a movie that really confuses everyone.


just because the scientific world requires proof which they can measure and remove their limited thinking doesnt mean it is correct either.They can not prove many things about the Quantum world yet they still strive to find it.
i dont think enlightenment has anything to do with GRADUATION it is an on going thing which one never ends,or am I wrong here.

By tree's thread on mind control I think the macdonalds corporation has some answering to do.
this can be applied to a wide area of beliefs and social societies.

like i said before lets get DR JOE on board.as the boat has nearly left.

If its is as bad as you say then why hasnt RSE hassled me out to attend another event,or sent me flyers,or had the co-ordintor to get me back for my money or am i suppose to just wonder back in a daze thinking this is all there is in the world and i am ok the rest of the world is just crazy.
I thought we new what their agenda was "to teach the human of the divinty of which they are"

Is not number 6 the government controlled society at large as well. ( now thats MIND CONTROL)

Please dont be offended by My words as it is not intended.Just debating.

Swamibinton from oz.

[tree]

So she concocks this idea, I will pretend to channel some fella,lets call him Ramtha and hes a barbarian etc.
While i am doing this I may just as well include MIND CONTROL

swami-
the thing about her inventing a new tool (Ramtha) is one thing.
She did not CONSCIOUSLY include mind control in the agenda. It is somewhat of a "by product" if you will.

Take the example of Jim Jones for a moment.
He was, initially, a truly motivated pastor in a very small church.
His original intentions, in THAT stage, were good.

I think as a developing sociopath, he could not really assess if an agenda was "good" or not.
His original intent was good, but how it unfolded several years later is somewhat the same path
that Hitler took, only on a smaller scale.

Elizabeth Clare Prophet with her Church Universal and Triumphant moved along the parallel path.
The ONLY thing that MIGHT be "saving"her , in a very loose speaking way is her bout
with Alzhiemer's.
During her stay in a convalescing home and participating in therapy did she, during a brief intermission
in her therapy, call out to her son to meet her, and admittedly acknlowledge to him
that the entire previous 20+ years were all a farce (channeling Count St Germain, the entire church goings,
channeling whomever else., building UG bunkers's ...You can ask Joe Sz more about this and/or I will post a web site for you).
Here was a clear sociopath encountering Alzheimer's, and somewhere the wires getting crossed as well
as getting well, she admits that the WHOLE things was a farce.

http://www.blacksunjournal.com/televisi ... _2008.html
http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/



Well, unless Jim Jones, or jz knight or Hitler come across some other mental incapacity along the way,
the only other way out seems to be suicide on a grand scale.

So....for right now, how I see it, she did not originally start off with such an ill intent.
If it goes left unchecked, it spirals to something like it is in its current form, and takes an entire ship of people
with it (if they haven't already died off from trying to raise themselves from the dead with BlueBody work).

Also, it is well known that as the group leader gains more momentum, they feed off the people they have gathered.
There is so much pressure to live up to what has been concocted.
And as I have been told before, the leader learns along the way as well.

A very good case in point is the instance where "Ramtha" sais he is leaving, "you people " are not doing
diddly squat as far as disciplines and manifesting, and I am leaving.
JZ waits for the groups' reaction.
oh yeah.
She sees. They are entirely distraught, beside themselves. They are wailing and in total depression.
Yup. She gets to see how far in her clutches they are (mind you, I was current in the school at the time this happend.
I was not of the wailing variety, but I would say over 85% were).
That was around Christmas.
Next January, out comes a revolutionary new "specialty workshop" including a very new prayer and drinking
a glass of wine at 4 am to solidify all one's thoughts and list.

I think you can Google the movie The Wave.
In it, it shows that how the group grows, the leader grows in the need for power.
This is a movie based on a true story of a teacher in California in 1967.
I found it utterly fascinating.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the+wave&emb=0#

I hope this helps.
No F's here

Just knowledge sharing....for free :)

[tree]

like i said before lets get DR JOE on board.as the boat has nearly left.

the likelihood of this happening is zilch.

You see swami, when one leaves a group, or one is kicked out (as in Joe's case)
there are various stages of leaving and 'recovery', if you will.
If one is kicked out, they still, for quite some time, believe in the very entity that was concocted.
Joe still believes that Ramtha is/was his inspiration. Otherwise, he would not giving current tribute to
RSE in his lectures nor would his girlfriend be chairing the Children of Excellence School auctions.
She is also as HUGE contributor to CSE. So they are still believers.
Just very disgruntled becuase JZ kicked him out.
They still do not see a difference between JZ and Ramtha.
This is very common sometimes, depending on how one left the group.

The stages of leaving are very individual.
They may still live around Yelm and believe in the need for Undergrounds.
They may still live in Yelm and believe in Ramtha and see the idiocy of UG's.
They may leave Yelm thinking they learned all they could from their hierphant.

I would give it several years' time before where one is on the path of leaving such a group
and endeavoring to pinpointing where one is at. It is very difficult to do
unless it is in hindsight.

[tree]

Is not number 6 the government controlled society at large as well.

I would have to agree with you here to some extent, but not to full out classify it as a "Conspiracy Theory"
as is so common to do in coercive persuasive groups.

[aussiegirl]

Probably not the right place to post but what is the problem Ramsters have with judgement!!!!! It seems to be such a dirty word. My partner and I were having a mild discussion about it last night (can't get too far into anything or its World War 3) I said to him "could you make a judgement as to whether or not you liked a dress I wore" He said no that his opinion might change from day to day, so I said "could you make a judgement right now about what I am wearing, whether you like it or not" He said no, he doesn't make judgements he makes assessments, judgements are conclusions - yes obviously. What is wrong with making a conclusion, is this all a part of the teaching to keep followers from using critical thinking and making a judgement about what they are hearing? It really is insane, because of course my partner actually makes judgements constantly, just pretends he doesn't.

Some please explain what this is about? I think he's been spending too much time in the car lately listending to tapes.

[Wakeup-Call]

like i said before lets get DR JOE on board.as the boat has nearly left.

Why has the boat nearly left?

Having been an RSE student for 10 years, I know full well the Ram teaches that we're all just on journeys, there's no mistakes, every person's path is individual and it's all good. He supposedly offers a fast track (of course in 25 years, he hasn't got himself the "Christ" that he's after so it doesn't seem to be going all that well in terms of "fast")

Are you referring to the massive earth changes that are supposedly nigh upon us?
Or could it be more of a metaphysical, ascension type boat that is leaving?

I just think you must be having some doubts about the validity of this boat you're about to jump in, or you'd be there with the boat packing your stuff, rather than here with the EMF crowd.

What if this rescue boat actually ends up going over Niagra Falls and crashing to its demise? Is that a possibility? Wouldn't Ramtha's teachings indicate that if this thought can come into my mind then it is a possibility with a probability attached to it?

Here's a possibility...what if JZ got her hands on some voodoo type teachings and methods, experimented on her followers by having "Ramtha" give the instructions, people do it because they trust Ramtha, and JZ watches to see what happens? Let's say the invisibility photographs aren't forged but are real. Ramtha said in a following event that we the students didn't need to know where those people went, because HE knew where they were. But what if that was just JZ covering that she had no idea what happened to these people. Did you read my post about the woman from Romania who worked on staff who lost her marbles doing the disciplines every day and got dumped from her job? Local ex-students got her home to Romania and into a mental institution - did you catch that thread or would you like me to get you the link?

I mean, you're all ready to jump in the Pied Piper's boat, whereever it may be going, and encouraging us not to miss it. Well, let me just wish you well on the Titanic's maiden voyage. I don't mind at all waiting to see if you come back with your mind in one piece. Have a wonderful trip. I'll catch the next one once I'm sure the boat is seaworthy.

[swamibinton]

Greetings all,
thanks for your comments tree,wake up call i can see you are pasionate about this debate and again thanks for your time.
Send me the link please.(I am still looking through journeys links)

I can see that your point is valid and that the road you speak about is a possability.

Lets say for arguments that ram is real then doesnt it put a different view on this ?
we seem to be only looking at the point of him not being real.

Do you see any truth in the teachings,especially QM ? Not accountability (forget mind control and JZ or ram)

the boat was just sarcasim.

Aussie girl I see judgement only appling to another person not a material thing.material things are just choice.

swami

[swamibinton]

Wake up call,

I read your post on Creating your day.

the part about what greg did I am familiar with.
I applied it one day and had the same result, (different situation) but i do remember a different type of focus or consciuosness i was experincing when doing it.
just a comment

Swami

[G2G]

Swamibinton writes: """G2G,
The individual achieves a confidence in themselves and as ram teaches to be giving and impeccable etc,if we all did a lot of these things there would be no need for police,jails,lawers etc.
the experience adds wisdom and understanding to the individual and AIDS in evolveing oneself. """

One need not a "ramtha" in order for this to occur. In fact, despite "ramtha," these things are still "indeed" occurring, and sometimes within RSE. The school is a facade, stripping one of the confidence they once enjoyed, and replacing it with a recipe of truths and jz "add-ins."

In order for the world to evolve into one which needs not law-enforcement, etc., should we not all, as HUMANS, make a conscious decision to simply be kind, tolerant, loving, compassionate...and NOT BE STUPID... as in allowing a self-proclaimed "anygods" to tell us how to think in order to "become a Christ." The truth is within, and being a god is simply a bit too much of leap. We're still learning to walk and must before we fly. Let's try and be more HUMANE before we try and call ourselves gods. The confidence one feels comes from one's OWN accomplishments and deeds and imo, not from anyone or anything telling us "how" we all must accomplish this. We each are individuals and have our own paths, not a group of robots thinking the same. (Think Asimov - even "I, Robot" evolved.

[Wakeup-Call]

Swami - I believe you that you had a genuine experience. I would say simply to continue exploring the human potential rather than subsuming the RSE explanation. In the headiness of the novelty of the experience, it's easy and encouraged by RSE to take their explanation of your phenomena.

The scientific method is to observe, measure and track the inputs, the conditions and the results with goal of coming up with a repeatable experiment.

Obviously RSE doesn't really have a formula because Teacher #1, Greg Simmons, only has one story he keeps telling over and over and over again for at least 4 years now.

Here's a different twist. RSE published a photo of a staff member who got 10 out of 10 arrows in a round of analogical archery. Let's give her the benefit of the doubt that there was no cheating. What has she accomplished? She accomplished shooting arrows in a haybale blindfolded.

I practiced the piano 7 days a week for a 1/2 hour a day from time I was 7 until I was 16. Today I can sit down and play and sightread anything. It's a miracle. It must mean I am a God. Next thing you know, because I developed this sightreading skill, I will sit down and sightread a book in a foreign language I've never studied. Next thing you know, because I developed this piano playing skill, I will touch someone and they will be healed. Next thing you know, I will sit down and compose a symphony from the 23rd universe.

I'm exaggerating to make a point. My experience with RSE is that they make huge leaps of explanation and "next step" based on some success in their taught disciplines.

For example...Woo Hoo! You found your card! You got a sending & receiving! What can't you do?
Uh, I still can't drive a stick shift...why? because I haven't practiced

Audrey is good at consistently finding her card on the field. Good for her. She has really practiced. What a lovely skill. And so what? What can you do with that?

Greg changed the insurance form and saved some money. So what. He could have done what every other Joe in the world would have done and that is pay up, hard lesson learned, and next time pay more attention to what he's doing when he rents a car. What is so wrong with that path of growing in wisdom? My partner in that event was a 16 year old kid who asked me excitedly if this meant that he could go without studying for a month and then "remember" that he got an A on his math test! What would you have told him Swami?

[Wakeup-Call]

Swami - the link to the thread on the disciplines causing damage to the mind http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... .php?t=322

Swami - regarding Quantum Physics. I still enjoy reading and studying the discoveries in the sciences, including quantum physics. I'm especially into change theory and dark matter.

The main thing I notice is that the scientists doing this work feel that they are just on the tip of the iceberg. They are confused by what they are discovering.

Here's why I think it's incredibly relevant as to whether JZ is faking or mentally ill.... because of all the "scientific" fill-in the facts Ramtha spouts which could just be science fiction out of JZ's head or a book she's read.

My experience at RSE was that situations were created (e.g., sensory deprivation) where experiences could occur, then those experiences were glorified and exaggerated, then a little real science and real history was provided, THEN the JZR secret reveal of the TRUE scientific or historical facts on how things work and how things were back in the day. Next thing you know I was believing that anything out of Ramtha's mouth was an awesome, brilliant, gift to the world.

[swamibinton]

gidday

What would you have told him Swami?

I would have told him he needs to study to gain knowledge,, not "Yer just do that"

Common sense is still relavent and you seem to think that you keep your common sense and students dont,what a load of balony.

i take it that these abilities allow you to understand that there is a vast potential of abilities that are yet tapped and what we do with them is our own buisness or decision and My understanding is that this is the unknown in us becoming known.

We are NOT THE GOD but we are divine individual gods on our own.
I figure ram uses the word "god" as we have some kind of understanding of god outside of the box, he could have used "higher self" like others but not as much impact to ourselves.

Greg didnt do what he did to save money he took the oppotunity to apply what he has learnt, he would have gladly paid his way. A new ability needs practice to refine those areas that have been latent
the way some members here twist things around on this site is a debate on its own.


Audrey is good at consistently finding her card on the field. Good for her. She has really practiced. What a lovely skill. And so what? What can you do with that? YOU TRUELY CANT EVEALUATE WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH THIS?
No wonder you all dislike it.

G2G.
i wish this could be what you commented about, but to do this it must be a deeper task or it would be so now. Instead humanity seems to be going the other way.

Of course by acheiving an experience in a discilpine doesnt allow us to heal someone (I am dumbfounded you think that I or students think this way) like I said it brings up something which is latent in us.

My opinion is that the disciplines show us that there is something divine in us which is being brought to the surface for us to question what we thought we were not capable of.If it gives us confidents to excel in a maths test then that alone means the knowledge was worth it and therefore increases self worthiness ,,,not we can now move that mountain.

when someone gets a card surely they say "out of one thousand cards I actually found my card so if I put my focus on my limits in my daily life I can achieve or pass my maths test,or work test or go for that job i wanted,etc.

It is a tool for bettering our life skills and ram saying "you can heal someone is also a POTENTIAL if that is the persons passion.
I witnessed my wife heal herself in front of me and when she doubted it ,it was back.She agreed if she can keep FOCUSED she can do a lot of things she doubted she could do at all.

I question many of you understand or grasping the content taught hence your dislike of what is taught.

For some of you who say you have succeded in all the disciplines is very doubtfull, because if you achieved greatly in just one of them you would not be condeming what you learnt. 20yrs in the school does not automatically say you have succeded, attendence is a scratch of the surface of what is required as i see it.

was it not proven in the high court that RSE is NOT a cult or have i been brainwashed.

going to read your link wakeupcall

swami

[ordinarymind]

Hi everyone
I am in awe of some of the exchanges happening on this site recently. So much caring and attempting to find clarity ?so much willingness to dig deep and try to understand another?s view point. Swami, although some of your posts are frustrating to me as an ex-student, I also appreciate your willingness to keep pushing as it is helping me see the challenge in communicating with current students, or current ?believers? I should say as I understand you are not current right now.

As an ex-student, I may not be red in the rainbow any longer, but I know I am still not seeing all the colours. Maybe now I am green in the rainbow and so I don?t see green. I guess my point is that while we, as ex-students have the benefit of seeing what our belief system was when we were in the school, and so now we see red, as several posters have noted, I don?t think we have the benefit of seeing our current belief system now that we are out of the school.

Well, let me just speak for myself, because I don?t want to assume all of you are stuck in the same place as I am. One of the things that frustrates me, now that I am out of the school, is that I seem to hit a ?brick wall? when I talk to current students. There is the full belief that Ram exists and is who he says he is . .and therefore he has a fuller picture of reality than anyone else ?and so that belief system is not seen as a belief system, but, rather, it is seen as ?truth?. In a conversation with a ramster the other night, after I made the comment that something he said to me was his belief, he replied, ?no, it isn?t a belief, it is reality?. ?That?, I said, ?is a belief?. But, no, he didn?t see it that way because Ram says this is the way it is.

So, my frustration is in knowing that I, too, am in a belief system now, although it is not the ?red in the rainbow? belief system, but it is still a belief system. So, my question is how do we get beyond being stuck in our belief systems to talk to each other? It seems to me that a lot of my conversations with ramsters get stuck at an ?either or? place and, like I say, hit that brick wall. And it?s not an aggressive brick wall ?I want to say that where I live, which is not Yelm, the ramsters in my town are sincere in their beliefs. We have been quite a close-knit group in the past and there is still caring and respect among us, even though I have chosen to leave the school. So, even when there is a genuine desire to understand each other?s choices, we still hit this brick wall where we see things differently.

How the heck do we get beyond that? How do we talk to each other, like Inquiremefree posted, in a way that genuinely inquires into each other?s beliefs, rather than arguing from our limited beliefs?

Well, those are some of the questions I am asking myself these days ?and I just wanted to share them and to say again, how much I appreciate this board and everyone who takes the time to post on it.

Ordinarymind

[aussiegirl]

Swami - what is "divine" about anything taught at the school, why do you refer to finding a card on a field as "divine" why these skills? Its very funny to me. What is so special about these skills, I can't sing but if someone could teach me to sing with a beautiful voice that would be much more amazing to me than hitting a target with a blindfold on. Did you not know that other things besides those you can do yourself were possible?

You seem to be focusing on the school teaching the lesson that you are your own god - isn't that a given? I have known that since a was a small child. I have no belief in a higher being than myself and have complete faith in my ability to do anything I want, in fact I can't think of anything I have wanted in life that I haven't got. If anyone says I haven't got my partner to stop believing in Ramtha, well I don't believe it is the correct thing to do to spend my energy dispelling his beliefs, but he hasn't done one RSE discipline since he moved in with me (more than 2 years) nor has he attended a retreat.

[tree]

For some of you who say you have succeded in all the disciplines is very doubtfull, because if you achieved greatly in just one of them you would not be condeming what you learnt.

ok swami-
I have been very very patient with you until you made this narcissitic point.

Which brings me to a quote by ordinary mind:

when I talk to current students. There is the full belief that Ram exists and is who he says he is . .and therefore he has a fuller picture of reality than anyone else ?and so that belief system is not seen as a belief system, but, rather, it is seen as ?truth?. In a conversation with a ramster the other night, after I made the comment that something he said to me was his belief, he replied, ?no, it isn?t a belief, it is reality?. ?That?, I said, ?is a belief?. But, no, he didn?t see it that way because Ram says this is the way it is.

and thus it seems the way with you swami.
either: Ram sais so, so it is true or
It was my experience that I learned at RSE so it MUST be true.

There is no dialoguing with this mind set.
And for you swami to make such a general assumption is that you doubt I acheived any of the disciplines just becuase I spent 20 years in the school and can not see what the entire point of the disciplines are .

And then add :

YOU TRUELY CANT EVEALUATE WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH THIS?
No wonder you all dislike it.

and as I opened my point in this thread to you is that it might be you that has missed the boat
(or the point).

I would really like to hear what a person can do with these learned skills?
1) it has been over 25 years, nearly 30 that jz knigth has been teaching the same rhetoric.
I would think after 30 years , and claiming to form a school to create a christ in 7 years,
NOTHING close has been achieved in 7 years much less the 30.
That, in my opinion, is not a positive return on investment (ROI).
2) I have not seen in my 20 years in RSE a practical application of these disciplines.
the mere mortal ex of your wife healing herself, then "doubting" (your term...er..rather ramtha's ) and then
the illness comes back, and then her saying "if only I would focus better I would be healed" are all examples
of cult like thinking. pure and simple.
BUT....just as YOU are in the teachings, I was in the same boat and thought the very same way as you[/i]

[tree]

for a very long time

and now I am out, so I can now see , in hindsight, how I thought
and how I think now.
2 very different animals.

[tree]

ordinary mind:

How the heck do we get beyond that? How do we talk to each other, like Inquiremefree posted, in a way that genuinely inquires into each other?s beliefs, rather than arguing from our limited beliefs?

I can totally relate to your frustration.
and honestly, it has been my experience that a cult member (group member, whatever you want to call it)
does NOT genuinely WANT to sincerely inquire because their was is the "right way".
and I have run into the same,

There is the full belief that Ram exists and is who he says he is . .and therefore he has a fuller picture of reality than anyone else

no one can really have a meaningful dialogue with a person who believes this way.
The only way I can have a conversation with them is about something inane and not relevant to nearly anything.
So that pretty much puts me at not really having any meaningful discourse with current students.

[journeythroughramthaland]

Ordinary,

I appreciate what you have said above. The perfect way to deal with it is for both to speak in their own language. Unfortunately when that happens, one side gets their buttons pushed through attempting to conceive a thought process which they have found to be unhelpful to them to say the least through their personal experience while the other-side damages their current belief system which can be uncomfortable as well as threatening depending on how much they have invested.

Perhaps, instead of looking for a perfect way to discuss things we all might settle for an imperfect way, I think all of us will share some of the same difficulties in having and maintaining discussions in which many aspects can be diametrically opposed. Perhaps making an agreement to recognize when this is occurring and then once recognized making a mutual choice to go forward or shelve the discussion for another time might prove beneficial.

Just a thought.

Swami,

"Greg didn't do what he did to save money he took the opportunity to apply what he has learnt, he would have gladly paid his way. A new ability needs practice to refine those areas that have been latent
the way some members here twist things around on this site is a debate on its own. "

While not a student, I do have personal experience with Greg. He has lied both directly to me as well as others in my presence. He made claims about results the "teachings" had produced, claimed to have medical documentation for the facts he stated. When asked if I could be able to see the "evidence" he had given as "proof" I was told it would be no problem. I attempted for over a year to get a hold of the information he mentioned and it was never provided to me (because it never existed).

The question that arises from this is why would someone lie about things like this? Well, first of all this occurred at an introductory lecture meant to market the 'teachings" and get people to sign up for the school. As long as no one questions the claims made, the simple state of them not being contested gives them a sort of de-facto credibility. This is the foundation the RSE house is built on. (I have all the emails to verify what took place).

When a product performs well, there is no reason to lie, otherwise one would jeopardize the credibility of the company supplying the product. If however, the product is an idea, concept, something not concrete or one in which produces no results which cannot be explained in other terms, then it is to the companies benefit to lie and make up things which appear to give it a concrete basis in reality, even if it is not so. It works, I will agree with that. It is unethical to say the least and the more important thing is as with all lies, it needs to be perpetuated so the behavior which follows always has that in mind.

It seems to me that you are equating ones experience to be in fact reality. Is that what you are saying?

[Whatchamacallit]

I just want to say that I can attest to Greg being a liar. I've experienced that in a myriad of ways, myself. I've also experienced him having quite a temper.

Swami said, "For some of you who say you have succeded in all the disciplines is very doubtfull, because if you achieved greatly in just one of them you would not be condeming what you learnt. 20yrs in the school does not automatically say you have succeded, attendence is a scratch of the surface of what is required as i see it.

was it not proven in the high court that RSE is NOT a cult or have i been brainwashed. "

Swami: You need to read further (where is Joe's article on this ???), about the details of the dynamics involved in that "study" that "proved" that JZ does channel. It's quite flawed and it would behoove you to have the open mindedness and courage to dig deeper into that information. It does exist. The red flags are everpresent at to how you have been brainwashed into thinking that RSE is not a cult. It's a fraud, and a cult, it seems clear to me.

As for "succeeding" in the disciplines...I don't recall ANY poster on EMF claiming that they succeeded in ALL of the disciplines as you stated.

I "succeeded" in many of them, and that's the honest fact. I was particularly good in certain ones. I'm not going to detail it because it's far from the point and I have no need to prove anything to you. I am okay with agreeing to disagree!!!

It is YOUR words to say that anyone here "condemns" what they've learned. I never said that...though you have inferred it. I simply came to the realization that ANY of the disciplines can be achieved due to a number of factors. Succeeding in a discipline only means that you "did it". It doesn't mean you're going to ascend, or that you have 100% mastery of that discipline 100% of the time for yourself and others (referring to healing as an example). It's just not true, Swami.

I don't condemn what I learned there. Some of it has been "validated" in a sense, because it actually PRE-existed RSE as a "teaching". I simply don't give credit to "Ramtha" for material that isn't really "Ramtha's". It HAS BEEN published in some work or another, prior to RSE. It's not an original work of Ramtha or even JZ...however you choose to look at that.

When I give credit to something or someone, it is because they deserve FULL CREDIT. Did I learn things at RSE that I didn't know previously ? Yes. Were they all TRUE ? NO.

I do not give credit to someone who teaches OLD information with a slightly new spin, while also acting like a hypocrit who chooses to include in his/her reality (meaning JZR), verbal, emotional and physical ABUSE, Swami.

I've cited/posted on here many times about the "good" I got from RSE. However, I don't make the same error as you do; I don't see "giving credit" as an "either/or" choice. I ALSO hold JZR fully accountable for the wrongdoing that has gone on there. If, with your starry eyes, you aren't willing or able to do that, just know that it's your choice to ignore issues that should be addressed to be fair to the "good" and the "bad".

I don't see "Ramtha" as better than me, bigger than me, more important than me, more capable than me, etc...in other words...I haven't given my power away to Ramtha. I am CONFIDENT in my own values, judgements, self-worth, self-esteem, etc., that I hold Ramtha every bit as accountable for swearing at students, talking about vile sexual content in front of children, physically assaulting students (also in front of children), threatening students, etc., etc.
I wouldn't tolerate that from a "human" friend and I'm certainly not going to tolerate it, watching it happen by an "ascended master" !!!!! Why would YOU ???

Ramtha is a childish, highly emotional, arrogant, pompous, prone-to-anger-by-his-own-admission, egotistical a.....[moderator edit].....
moderator go ahead and edit that, I don't care.

Even JZ admits to "his" horrible behavior. I heard her say with my own ears that she is not responsible for what he does and says ! HELLO ????

Swami, wake up and take your blinders off .

[G2G]

.

Lets say for arguments that ram is real then doesnt it put a different view on this ?
we seem to be only looking at the point of him not being real.

swami

Were "ramtha" real, then one would still have to *assume* "ramtha's" experiences and explanations are simply "ramtha's" model of his/her own "creation" or his/her/it's view and perhaps differs from that of others. It still, imo, wouldn't prove anything to be absolute truth. Some of the teachings are ancient with add-ins from other sources (Vera Alder's blue webs - I've got her books) which were written long before jzrk/the big guy taught such. Suppose for a moment Ramtha were real (I know you believe he is) - HOW does one know beyond any doubt that what he/she/it says is absolute truth? Simply because he/she/it says so? Where is the proof? Blind faith? "Can't find my way home."....

[swamibinton]

Gidday All,
Well it does seem to be getting a bit hot here and thats OK.
I agree with who ever it was saying it is frustrating to disscuss when our minds think differently.

there is very valid points being made and I am taking this in (dont know what i am doing with it as yet)

i know you all think it is brainwashing but isnt everything in life these days, i take out of the teachings what seems reasonable to me for my understanding and i am sure you do as well,so if you get a positive just in one area of what you have experienced there, does not that positive out way some negatives (i know you all have a lot of negatives) so by saying this I dont agree to the extent that you all creat this curtain that it is the worst thing in the world to get involved in and if you do than you are lost and brainwashed morons talking stuff which doesnt fit into normal society.

As watcha said lets agree to disagree.
I didnt think you were being patient with me tree, this is part of my frustration of the downing comments when ever i comment back it is all Ramtha.
I have never thought it was a belief system only philosophy. "Beleif systems" are your discriptions.

Can we explain Kenny and Debbies abilities yet ?
Can we explain (as I mentioned earlier) about the orb I captured with my fathers face out the side or is it my brain effecting the camera.( and yes I know RSE didnt invent it)

Can any of you now disscuss ANY positives at RSE at all, or is only negatives excepted.

If an experience is not part of reality than what is it,your brain going fuzzy?
didnt know that about GREG.
( apologies aussie girl)
Please give me "Joes Article" (watchmacallit)

Swami

[tree]

know you all think it is brainwashing but isnt everything in life these days

i think you are making a gerality here.
If you Google Margaret Singer and brainwashing
or RObert Lifton and brainwashing and truly read, you will garner some knowledge.

have never thought it was a belief system only philosophy. "Beleif systems" are your discriptions.

again, swami, these are very scientific based definitions, NOT ours.
again, google "belief system" within the context of a cult. I will no longer spoon feed these things to you.
you HAVE to be willing to learn these for your self.

Can we explain Kenny and Debbies abilities yet ?

the Book The Story of Henry Sugar is enough of an explanation.
RSE did not INVENT that discipline.
jz only discovered the book and brought it to an event.
I find it odd after 20 some years of some other (made up) disciplines,
that the Henry Sugar story is the only story RSE can brag about publicly.
pfft.

Can any of you now disscuss ANY positives at RSE

maybe start another thread, otherwise you will have missed the points here altogether.

[journeythroughramthaland]

Hi Swami,

I totally understand your reluctance to think that you have been brainwashed/mind controlled. In fact, your participation on this board would tend to demonstrate the ineffectiveness of that sort of control if in fact it were in place. While I do feel that there is the potential for ones thoughts to be re-patterned, the issue here is more about if there has been an informed consent that one gives over so that they allow that process to be performed on them.

In my mind, it is really a matter of influence, how that effects ones perceptions, and again, how their perceptions become filtered through the lens of the person doing the influencing.

We all participate in the influence game every day, and you are right in this respect being influenced happens on a daily basis. I am attempting to influence you right now. My intention is to share a wider, less limiting world view with you. However, I would not want to do this if it makes you too uncomfortable or leads to chaos in your life. I leave it to you to let me know if this occurs.

One advantage of speaking of this phenomena in terms of influence is that it is more familiar to most people then brainwashing or mind control or thought reform. A person has a better chance of wrapping their mind around it as opposed to it wrapping itself around their mind.

If an experience is not part of reality than what is it,your brain going fuzzy?

Below is an example of an experiment I often use to show how the timing of events effect ones perceptions of reality while still being able to acknowledge that they did indeed have the experience they claimed to have.

(by the way, speaking of experiences, have you tried putting the card on your head during an OBE yet?)

Here is an experiment you can do yourself, or much better do it on a friend. It will demonstrate in a physical manner what I am saying.

In the act of doing this you will release me of all liability LOL

The following you must pre arrange. A couple of mugs or wide mouth glasses and a small pot.

Fill one glass with ice-cold water, cold enough to stand for 15 seconds (you must try it out before to know at safe temperature), fill the other with hot, but not scalding water. Fill the small pot with room temperature water.

Set them on a table with a chair positioned in the middle.

Put the pot in the middle and the glasses on either side approximately the width of ones shoulder.

Your stooge (I mean friend), is patiently waiting outside blindfolded.

You bring him/her/it to sit down and explain that there are some glasses on the table and you want to record their responses as to temperature by placing their index fingers in the different glasses.

Then, place their fingers in the hot and the cold glasses one in each. Count out 15 sec. remove their fingers and ask them the temperature.

Unless your pidgin (I mean friend) has a physical abnormality, they will say one is hot and one is cold.

Now explain to them that you are going to put them in 2 more glasses and you place both index fingers in the room temperature pot. Count 15 seconds.

Ask the Franken friend the temperature now. If the metamorphosis was successful they will tell you that the finger that was previously in the hot water is now in the cold, and the one that had been in the cold is now in the hot.

Remove the blindfold while their fingers are in the pot. This is more demonstrative if there is a thermometer in the pot.

It demonstrates, because of the nature and the proximity off the events (and that you knew how to do it) you altered their ability to perceive reality, at least the consensus reality that the pot at room temperature is in fact one temperature.

If you know about it, it will have similar effects, but more then likely not to the extreme as when you are unaware.

[Wakeup-Call]

Great experiment, JTR. Thanks for sharing that Swami.

Swami - I would agree with JTR that your very presence here at EMR shows you can still think for yourself. I think one of the points we're making is that RSE uses enthusiasm for human potential such as you have. They insidously weave a whole other world into students' lives and minds, using a person's experiences and the thrill of exploring the new and unconventional. I hope that all this conversation does help you keep some warning flags in mind as you continue to explore.

The other things I'm hearing from you is that you're looking for a forum to talk about unusual human experiences. I don't think that this forum is really where you find that. In fact, I have always wondered why there is NOT a forum where RSE students can talk freely. If it's so terrific and the methods so consistent, why doesn't RSE sponsor a student forum where you can discuss with other likeminded people? My opinion is because JZ would lose control. People would start comparing notes and giving each other options to explore that were cheaper and probably more effective.

I'm currently exploring some other development practices but I don't want to be touting them until I have more evidence. I will tell you that I know for a fact that there is a technology-based meditation program that many RSE students living in the Yelm area use but it's something of an inside secret, they don't want to be found out to be doing it instead of C&E. (www.centerpointe.com) I'm not advocating it but the folks are much more above board about what they are offering and have a counseling/support hotline while you use the program. For their gardens, these same people aren't focusing and putting a "blue grid" on it...they are using the methods from www.perelandra-ltd.com

How strange is it that people living in the area are frightened to be open about other "truths" and "methods" they are exploring?? I'm not saying that's where you are in your mindset Swami, I'm saying that's the path where RSE leads. And therefore, beware.

[Wakeup-Call]

Swami, you might find interesting this official quote from JZ's attorneys regarding a complaint. The full complaint and full response can be found in the Legal thread on this forum.

Jan 4th, 2007 - 4:33 PM Re: Response of AG Dept. and Lawyer of JZ Knight

The Teachings are not intended, and certainly not guaranteed, to develop occult
powers. The Teachings are intended to allow the student to create an
harmonious relationship with God and the student's place in the universe, to
the end that in daily activities at school, work, or play the student will achieve
a sense of inner fulfillment and equilibrium.
While the Teachings include instructional exercises, or disciplines, those are merely tools that some students
find helpful and others do not. For a student at the School to complain that the disciplines
"don't work" makes no more sense than for, say, a Catholic to complain that no actual
transubstantiation appears to occur during the Eucharist, or that despite conscientious
religious practice he does not feel a state of grace.

--------
Not only are the disciplines not guaranteed to develop your powers, they aren't even intended to do that.

[tree]

How strange is it that people living in the area are frightened to be open about other "truths" and "methods" they are exploring??

because, if you do this as a current student or staff member, JZ will send spies over to the next gathering and put the screws to you via the legal system.
Apparently, there is NOT enough room in the big sand box of human potential according to RSE.
You play in THEIR sandbox or leave.

[aussiegirl]

I notice that Swami refers a lot to orbs, does anyone remember the link for that excellent study on orbs and the scientific explanation for how they occur? I think it was a UK based experiment. Basically orbs are a natural phenomena and it was very logically worked through and explained. It was on the old forum.

[journeythroughramthaland]

Hi Aussigirl,

I don't have a link to any study, but orbs (the new age name) is a fairly common effect most often from dust and digital cameras. I can make them all the time in my woodshop, or perhaps they are the wood entities!! too bad I can't talk them into doing any sanding!!! LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orb_(paranormal)

[aussiegirl]

yes you are correct Journey that it is something to do with the abundance of digital photography. I am going to try and find the link because it was such a clear study and very hard to argue with (although I have no doubt Ramsters would) dont they believe something ludicrous like the orbs are entities? I think thats what my partner says - is that for real? Do intelligent people really believe that stuff - what am I saying, I know they do.

[Whatchamacallit]

Swam,

I'm sincerely glad that you are taking in the points we're making. As others have said, that is a sign that you are thinking for yourself, and open to being inquisitive, instead of shut down. You said you don't know what you're doing with all the information yet. You might like to know that when a person leaves a group such as RSE, it commonly takes them up to two years. During that time, they are questioning...and eventually, they slowly disengage emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and FINALLY, physically ! They deal with it first, in their own minds, then they leave. As I've posted before, I was "out" for 1-2 years before I physically left. Even then, I attended some online events just because I was curious. I knew that I was done, but I just "needed" to do so.

If only you would read the book, Take Back Your Life by Lilich and Tobias. It can't hurt ! Well, actually, on an emotional level, it might sting. When I read that book, I said to myself, so many times, "Oh, my God, that's so true. That's exactly what I was feeling/thinking/experiencing." The book isn't bashing "cults", but it's dissecting the dynamics of how they function, and how we function within them, and when we're leaving them. Human nature is pretty consistent at a general level...the phases are what we've all gone through when leaving, in our own ways. The leaving part (and I'm not telling you to leave) isn't the hard part. The hard part is FACING the limitations and wrongs/manipulation that were going on to control members, and keep them in mental/emotional chains so they keep coming back $$$$$$$$$$$ The leaving is a natural side effect of facing those things. Redefining your life once you've left can be interesting, too. Good for you that you're not current. AND your questioning.

That hurts. Especially when you are there because you're a sincere student.

Yes, I understand and agree that we are brainwashed by various aspects of our society. We need to be aware, as best we can. However, in the instance of a group that takes money from people, and coerces them into silence (the Conditions of Particpation gag order), and isn't forthcoming with their real agenda, such that you don't have INFORMED CONSENT, then there is a problem. Using politics for example, we have a choice about our opinion because we can do research and make a decision about what we choose to support. We're not being charged for a product or service that is going to mislead us by claiming one thing, and delivering another. That's fraud.

I will repeat, many of us have posted that we have had "positives" in the school. But they do not outweigh the negatives. When the foundation of the teachings are not built upon honesty, (to say the least), there is a red flag to consider. We were told we could ascend and do this and that. Gain enlightenment via the disciplines, healing, etc., etc. Yet, JZ's attorney was quick to deny the claims !!!!! The response to the Attorney General of WA State by JZ/her attorney, is one of the biggest red flags that there is, imo.

To get involved in a group that can prove and validate it's claims, fine. A group that substantiates its claims as well as its leader's claim to be superhuman, AND of very high moral fiber, truthful, etc...noble virtues, would be worth listening to. However, RSE does not supply that.

As for Debbie and Kenny's abilities...what's the point ? If they truly do have an active sixth sense so that they clairvoyantly know what is on the card, then they are "psychic". So what ? Many of us on EMF do not deny that a sixth sense exists. Animals have it. Science has written about it. Pseudoscience has written about it. That it exists, that an afterlife exists, etc, is not the issue. Making false claims to customers/students about what the school really is, intends to do, and actually does do, IS the issue. The physical abuse and other aspects of abuse that have gone on there, unchecked because "Ramtha knows best", IS the issue.

If orbs are genuinely spirits appearing on a digital camera, so what ? Why does RSE get "credit" for that. If it were true, it's always been true. There are a lot of websites that claim orbs are spirits, that have nothing to do with RSE. If they are real, it doesn't validate that in seven years, you too, can become God Realized.

Consider this: if it's true that God is EVERYWHERE, then God is also within us. That does not mean we ARE God. You can be on a message forum, but it doesn't mean it's your forum or you have access to all it's capabilities. God can be in us, but WE are on "moderation", which means....we're HUMAN. We're SUPPOSED to be human. If we were supposed to BE the things that JZ Knight claims we can/will be, then we deny the perfection of God having created us as HUMAN...we'd have incarnated as Other than that. IF, for example, 1% of the entire global population became immortal in the flesh, and it was some sort of mutation of the human being, that does not prove, or mean, that 100% of the population is going to, or is even supposed to, attain that same experience. Since we're human, and God is everywhere (assuming you believe that), we can comfortably go forward living our human lives k nowing that everything is in order as it should be. We can live fully what we are, instead of chasing what we are not, and miss the present moment because we're projected into a fantasy/hope/desire world of being a God Realized. If you attain some psychic "powers" along the way, so what ? Psychics still grow old and die.


I'll go look for Joe's article.

[swamibinton]

Hi All,

Thanks wakeup call for the info I was aware of the Holysinc method and have a demo on the way as we speak.

As for this debate i feel it has been exhausted as i dont agree as you dont agree and we get nowhere except resentment and frustration.
As for the teachings being valid we may never know and my hesitation is that nobody who has attended school or in school really applies it 110%, and untill this is done the results are not known.( kenny maybe has)
i can argue all nite and so can you as to some things i say and you say being "Here Say" even scientifically proven does not ring with me as I recently watched a doco on Stephen Hawkins who supposively is matching Einstein how after 30 years of his work came out and announced he was WRONG with what he said.( no ramtha speak here)
Tree thanks for spoon feeding me it was delicious.
Watchamacallit and all others thanks for your words and participation.i will strive to be open and observing more on my journey.
Journeythroughramthaland will be attempting your experiment and i will come back and tell you about the card on my forehead in my OBE. Your links are excellent but i still have a bit of uneasiness as to that this is the best explination of things as I will sit on the fence for now.ORBS ARE NOT DUST,surely these members can agree on that.

"For those who doubt nothing will suffice,for those who believe there needs no explination."

As ARNI says "I'll BE BACK"

swami

[swamibinton]

one more thing about orbs,i dont know if you have seen it or not,but the video RSE has on orbs from south africa is worth a look its very interesting.

swami

[Marie]

Re: Orbs, videos, pics, etc.......

My mother's response to my questions about rse, orbs, levitation, etc., is always the same "but I've seen the PICTURES and the VIDEOS"......

I am a graphic designer and have to always remind her.... "Ever hear of PHOTOSHOP????"

You can REALLY create your day with Adobe!...

It is ludicrous to point to any digital image as "proof" of anything.

[tree]

my hesitation is that nobody who has attended school or in school really applies it 110%,

you used one of the catch phrases very well to keep the group entrained.
"I will show you the way to enlightenment, I love you" and then....
the big hammer:
"you are not doing enough disciplines, you are not good enough, you are not evolved enough."

then back to "Love, I you greatly."

a p e r f e c t example of the cycle of abuse that Grace posted over a year ago.
And since I bent my spoon with my Uri Geller abilities, swami, you will actually have to work a bit
and go to the old site and search "cycle of abuse".

[swamibinton]

Hi All, long time no talk.
I have completed my observations of RSE and this web site and conclude as it all began.
You have definetly MISSED THE BOAT

Enjoy your life and what unfolds.
Swami

[David McCarthy]

Enjoy your life and what unfolds

Thank you swamibinton
Happy sailing to you and your loved ones.

David.

[journeythroughramthaland]

Swami,

Happy new year to you. hope it is not to hot down under.

Have no fear, the ones who have the knowledge to build a well fitted boat will only miss it when they exercise their ability to choose to do so!

[Marie]

That's one boat I'm glad I'm not on!

[G2G]

A Titanic in the making. It's very sad.