mcgee
mcgee
Wow. Lots of anger and resentment here. Believe as you choose- but- have you now decided you need take no responsibility for your own choices? As a student of theology, philosophy and a person who has a life-long thirst for God, I read and experienced many other ares of thought/practice prior to finding RSE. Regardless of your beliefs about WHO Ramtha is, I wonder if you can find holes in the teachings. The subject of the biology of the brain and that innate ability we all have- that alone is life-changing.
Have you not experienced the peace and joy in going to the mid-brain, as all true meditation practices do, during your focusing work? Have you not SEEN through the cards? Explain that as a hoax? Explain your own experiences in healing- seeing through blindfolds, manifestations, psychic abilities- explain those as hoaxes. The message I received was always, "the power is within me." I find that exactly the message of Christ. I had my own issues with some of the approaches taken, some of the treatment, by the Red Guard, etc. but it taught me much about becoming detached, much about the Observer, which is also noted in many other philosophies, though called by different names. I did not want to be at the wine ceremonies- so I would leave. I did not give my power away.
It is my personal belief that without the school, my life would not be one of hope and confidence today. I believed I was powerless, had no way IN to my own power before RSE. I was empowered by my work there. I found a strength and WILL I did not know I had. I have manifested wonderful experiences, and of course I have my challenges as well. That is the nature of life on this plane of duality. But Ramthas's teachings urge me forward, doing the disciplines improves my day and my life. I am a better human being because of my time at the school. I am not a current student but I love the knowledge and experience I received while I was there.
All the anger and vitriol on this Board makes the words written incredible to me- as in, because you are so resentful I doubt your claims.
I wonder- I have not read discussion about the Future here. So- is this disavowed now as well? Or do you adhere to this still?
I do not understand why many of you feel people's personal choices to end their lives are JZ's responsibility. Are the healings then, to her credit, or Ramtha's credit, alone? You can't have it both ways. And any one who was a student for any length of time saw change in themselves, witnessed their own and other's healings, heard them proven, and documented- and spoken about by the student that healed himself/herself (whose God did that). You know the Blue Body dance had an effect, and so did C and E. How can you explain finding your card in the field? How? RSE is not the only school that has disciplines in focus. Candle focus is thousands of years old. Do you dismiss them all now?
And if one finds the $ amount too much, then one must be responsible and reasonable and not sell the farm to buy the cow. What I read here, is that people are furious because Ramtha is not a Savior, a Santa Claus who will fix everything. He has said time and again, the difficulties in moving beyond the light body in this human experience. He challenged us to much and I find it too much at times, and so I recalibrate for my OWN NEEDS.
If JZ is "pretending" to be Ramtha, then she is a genius. And I don't think JZ is a genius. How can you refute the science Ramtha taught about long before the science was mainstream information? I do not accept it all- there are places I feel free to have my own different opinion. What about the teachings on the repression of women? Was that mind control as well? Did that lessen you or strengthen you? His teachings on being virtuous sexually? Do you find those appalling now as well?
And as far as joy goes, how can you dispute the light hearts that are in abundance at RSE? "gray faces, empty eyes..." what? I would suggest a book, "Virus of the MInd" about programming/indoctrination. It is everywhere abundant. One must choose to take responsibility for one's life. I read here about victims who enjoy living in victim and fury land. What turmoil. Peace, peace, peace. Let it go. Follw your bliss. JZ a murderer? Your hyperbole discredits you in totality.
sorry that you r only frecqency specivic to the angry posts. lots of evidence all over this board that jz basicly copies whatever she teaches. its only new to people who never looked into sience or otherwise. most of your reasoning is plain jzr parroting. you could have learned candelfocus and seeing through cards from roald dahl. he descriebed it in a ~10$ paperback but yes we had the choise to learn it for a few 1000$. good that you r not current anymore. the, from you described, good effects last between1 and 2 years. i also presume that you went mostly to required events.also there is the question: can you do it all? have you seen all the evidence or is it just hersay you report? do you profit from taking prosac for your, found peace? yes the advice jz gives killed people.[see seawater,prosac and alcohol] yes i admitt i made some poor choises during i went to rse due to overwriting my critical thinking and trusting jzr is real. but simply its a scam and if you get enough out of it , to improove your life, good for you.
Hello everyone
Hello mcgee
Hello mcgee
Welcome to our board
Just a few things from me, other will respond to you in more detail I am sure.
You mentioned healing ,an proof of documentation,Can You supply us with some of them please.
Journeythroughramthaland (JTRL) a poster on this board have asked Greg Simmons for proof of healing,Greg told him that he was going to provide him evidences of student that healed them self,it has been two years now an nothing yet.
In my 8 years in Yelm I have heard of healing here an there,but never any proof,just talk,everyone that I know an I knew lot of them,that had health problem still have them to this day.
Some of them started at the same time then me in 1981 who are still in the school still have the same health issue.
JZ her self claim that she was healed by the children of CSE.she also can not provide any evidence of it she was in France at that time.
Until YOU provide some concrete evidences,meaning doctor reports,X ray before an after,you get my point. all it is,is people believing an lot of lack of knowledge.
But you seam to have mist the point here.our point is simple,Ramtha never existed.
JZ is faking it,an yes I think that she is a great actor.
Can you answer these for me please.
Explain to me why a suppose enlighten entity from the White Brotherhood,is having his students Using,Sea Water with lye in it ,Smoking Tobacco all day , Drinking wine by the gallon,tell his student That PROSAC,PROSAC PROSAC, is the drug that will help them achieve enlightement
an Tweekies will help you live for ever. Are you telling me that is an enlighten Entity that we should trust????
Oldone
Hello mcgee
Welcome to our board
Just a few things from me, other will respond to you in more detail I am sure.
You mentioned healing ,an proof of documentation,Can You supply us with some of them please.
Journeythroughramthaland (JTRL) a poster on this board have asked Greg Simmons for proof of healing,Greg told him that he was going to provide him evidences of student that healed them self,it has been two years now an nothing yet.
In my 8 years in Yelm I have heard of healing here an there,but never any proof,just talk,everyone that I know an I knew lot of them,that had health problem still have them to this day.
Some of them started at the same time then me in 1981 who are still in the school still have the same health issue.
JZ her self claim that she was healed by the children of CSE.she also can not provide any evidence of it she was in France at that time.
Until YOU provide some concrete evidences,meaning doctor reports,X ray before an after,you get my point. all it is,is people believing an lot of lack of knowledge.
But you seam to have mist the point here.our point is simple,Ramtha never existed.
JZ is faking it,an yes I think that she is a great actor.
Can you answer these for me please.
Explain to me why a suppose enlighten entity from the White Brotherhood,is having his students Using,Sea Water with lye in it ,Smoking Tobacco all day , Drinking wine by the gallon,tell his student That PROSAC,PROSAC PROSAC, is the drug that will help them achieve enlightement
an Tweekies will help you live for ever. Are you telling me that is an enlighten Entity that we should trust????
Oldone
I Value Things Not For What They Worth But For What They Represent
Re: mcgee
They are not "ramtha's teachings." The teachings have merely been collected and gathered from other sources, packaged by jzrk, and paid for by you.mcgee wrote: But Ramthas's teachings urge me forward
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972
i dont wanna be unfair and not explain what i mean with parroting in your post: ramtha or jz no matter what she he is a genius and the teachings r true. [i heard this line of thought too often on the ranch to see that its not your original thought. not one of the abilities is realy checked. there r no nonbeliever witnesses. just for instance a roulettweel set up on the ranch by ramfollowers to proof he is the big kahoona? please.[/quote: I do not understand why many of you feel people's personal choices to end their lives are JZ's responsibility] because some people might find not peace in theire midbrain after theire melatonin and seratonin levels get messed with on the ranch. sadly jz only supports paying customers. there is no chance of troubelshooting. if you dont have the money you cant talk to ramtha. [quote:how can you dispute the light hearts that are in abundance at RSE?]i know many people who where jolly and happy on the ranch. dident get anything done in theire personal lives. comming home complaining how happy thei r on the ranch. totaly deluted how they change the world by doing lousy jobs and beeing on the ranch. sorry for sounding so rude but you r here just repeating what you hear on the ranch. [/quote]
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journeythroughramthaland
- Posts: 248
- Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:36 pm
- Location: Los Angeles,CA
Hi magee,
Thanks for the post.
To reiterate what old one has said, yes I was told by Greg Simmons and others teaching at the school at that time (well more the 2 years ago, more like 6-7) that there were a series of documented cases of "healings" as well as the knitting of broken bones within hours and people who had grown new adult teeth. All said to be fully documented while they were selling their stuff at an intro. Alas, there was no documentation. If you have more then just anecdotal evidence I would be more then willing to consider it with regard to your claims.
However, without getting stuck on that point, I get the gist of your post. You feel that the school improved your life. That your life has been improved I take at face value what you say and am happy for you. What your post raises is a good example of the fact that every one in a group, be it cult or otherwise does not always have the same experiences.
You speak about having felt empowered. Quite often this can and does occur. The members who were shy, inhibited, or in other ways feeling less powerful are brought up and given opportunities to feel empowered. Sometimes they will be given positions of power to help them on their way. On the other hand, if one is full of bravado on entering the group, they will virtually all the time be brought down a peg or so. It is a leveling out process. Have a look at the video "the wave". and notice the student in the class that is given a leadership position as an example.
There are many possible explanations besides the ones given by the RSE organization and its students for the experiences that take place, They are listed on this site in various places so I will not address them here. If you have some specific instances would would like to hear possible alternative explanations for feel free to ask me and I will send them to you.
I would like to offer an analogy that might help to explain how you could have such a different experience then others on this board. Not meaning to take anything away from your experience, only to offer an insight into how it can be like that as you seem to disbelieve or deny the experiences of others based upon your own.
It is kind of like driving in traffic. We all get on the highway. RSE is not a highway, but they do claim to offer a map of sorts, even if the map is "You are your own map".
There is certainly a difference between RSE's map and ones that are more commonly used by people traveling on the highway. Some of the differences are as follow:
If the map is wrong, it is not the mapmakers fault but ones self.
Don't doubt the map.
Even if you get lost that is a good thing because you must have needed to do it.
If you don't use the map and methods, you will not be ready for the end-times (Or, don't take any of the exits or you might not get to where you want to go.)
I could go on.
Most people want to have trust in the map when they go on a trip. One might check to see if it is up to date or not.
You asked a question about the science R mentions before it becomes "mainstream". The majority of science never goes "mainstream" that is the nature of the beast. I am not aware of any single thing that R has mentioned that had not been mentioned by science prior to he/she bringing it up. If you are aware of something, please let me know.
SO, lets say for instance, you decide to go on a trip from LA to seattle, you take the freeway, you have other friends going at different times or days then you.
When you get within 100 miles of the Oregon border, you decide to get something to eat. After you eat, you take a nap for an hour or so before you get on the road again. You are unaware that 30 min. before you pulled over, at the Oregon border a drunk driver skipped across the divider and cause a 18 car pile up where several people died, some were terribly injured, some got away with minor injuries, and some by a seeming miracle escaped without a scratch on them or their vehicle.
You , meanwhile, get on the road again after your nap, by the time you get to the scene of the accident, traffic is moving smoothly, the wrecks have been cleared away, you are totally unaware that anything happened. Some of your friends who left around the same time as you were stuck in traffic for hours.
Same road, differing experiences.
The drunk driver effected the lives of many many others by his/her actions and behavior. What you are getting a sense for here is from many of those who lives have been effected by someone else's and in some cases their own drunk driving of sorts. Only in the land called ramthaland, there is no drunk driving, only driving. behavior is neither good or bad simply behavior that provide lessons to learn from. Being in ramthaland can relieve one of having to make judgements, decisions and having to face conflicting view, or, if one feels they have "arrived" then they simply "allow" instead of making decisions and judgments.
My comments are not directed at you as you have stated that you felt able to make judgments for yourself and decisions that were not always guided by group think.
My comments are directed towards you to attempt to give you another perspective on why people feel the way they do about JZ/R and the RSE corp.
Thanks for the post.
To reiterate what old one has said, yes I was told by Greg Simmons and others teaching at the school at that time (well more the 2 years ago, more like 6-7) that there were a series of documented cases of "healings" as well as the knitting of broken bones within hours and people who had grown new adult teeth. All said to be fully documented while they were selling their stuff at an intro. Alas, there was no documentation. If you have more then just anecdotal evidence I would be more then willing to consider it with regard to your claims.
However, without getting stuck on that point, I get the gist of your post. You feel that the school improved your life. That your life has been improved I take at face value what you say and am happy for you. What your post raises is a good example of the fact that every one in a group, be it cult or otherwise does not always have the same experiences.
You speak about having felt empowered. Quite often this can and does occur. The members who were shy, inhibited, or in other ways feeling less powerful are brought up and given opportunities to feel empowered. Sometimes they will be given positions of power to help them on their way. On the other hand, if one is full of bravado on entering the group, they will virtually all the time be brought down a peg or so. It is a leveling out process. Have a look at the video "the wave". and notice the student in the class that is given a leadership position as an example.
There are many possible explanations besides the ones given by the RSE organization and its students for the experiences that take place, They are listed on this site in various places so I will not address them here. If you have some specific instances would would like to hear possible alternative explanations for feel free to ask me and I will send them to you.
I would like to offer an analogy that might help to explain how you could have such a different experience then others on this board. Not meaning to take anything away from your experience, only to offer an insight into how it can be like that as you seem to disbelieve or deny the experiences of others based upon your own.
It is kind of like driving in traffic. We all get on the highway. RSE is not a highway, but they do claim to offer a map of sorts, even if the map is "You are your own map".
There is certainly a difference between RSE's map and ones that are more commonly used by people traveling on the highway. Some of the differences are as follow:
If the map is wrong, it is not the mapmakers fault but ones self.
Don't doubt the map.
Even if you get lost that is a good thing because you must have needed to do it.
If you don't use the map and methods, you will not be ready for the end-times (Or, don't take any of the exits or you might not get to where you want to go.)
I could go on.
Most people want to have trust in the map when they go on a trip. One might check to see if it is up to date or not.
You asked a question about the science R mentions before it becomes "mainstream". The majority of science never goes "mainstream" that is the nature of the beast. I am not aware of any single thing that R has mentioned that had not been mentioned by science prior to he/she bringing it up. If you are aware of something, please let me know.
SO, lets say for instance, you decide to go on a trip from LA to seattle, you take the freeway, you have other friends going at different times or days then you.
When you get within 100 miles of the Oregon border, you decide to get something to eat. After you eat, you take a nap for an hour or so before you get on the road again. You are unaware that 30 min. before you pulled over, at the Oregon border a drunk driver skipped across the divider and cause a 18 car pile up where several people died, some were terribly injured, some got away with minor injuries, and some by a seeming miracle escaped without a scratch on them or their vehicle.
You , meanwhile, get on the road again after your nap, by the time you get to the scene of the accident, traffic is moving smoothly, the wrecks have been cleared away, you are totally unaware that anything happened. Some of your friends who left around the same time as you were stuck in traffic for hours.
Same road, differing experiences.
The drunk driver effected the lives of many many others by his/her actions and behavior. What you are getting a sense for here is from many of those who lives have been effected by someone else's and in some cases their own drunk driving of sorts. Only in the land called ramthaland, there is no drunk driving, only driving. behavior is neither good or bad simply behavior that provide lessons to learn from. Being in ramthaland can relieve one of having to make judgements, decisions and having to face conflicting view, or, if one feels they have "arrived" then they simply "allow" instead of making decisions and judgments.
My comments are not directed at you as you have stated that you felt able to make judgments for yourself and decisions that were not always guided by group think.
My comments are directed towards you to attempt to give you another perspective on why people feel the way they do about JZ/R and the RSE corp.
"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."
-William Mizner
-William Mizner
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Caterpillar
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:11 am
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Compassion
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:58 pm
Awareness Comes Before Change
Cat' I have a comedy show to get you on.Caterpillar wrote:Hello everyone
I used to think that JZ is a genius. I have since realized that she has not come up with anything original so she is definitely not a genius.
However, she is an excellent copier like Xerox (so reliable). Her middle initial, ?Z? is like ?Zerox?.
Question 'before the house': Why doesn't she copy other tax payers?
- Why would JZ not pay her property taxes (going into the third year unpaid) on properties in Yelm that she owns (which is many)? Maybe the auction money will get that done so Thurston County can get on with the business of the people.
Maybe someone paid the taxes and after three years, they will own either all the properties or they will get interest on their monies if back taxes are paid up. Then again, maybe the taxes are not paid because the properties are quietly for sale.
We will see after the auction, if the taxes get paid.
TODAY IS A goOd DAY!
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Caterpillar
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:11 am
Quoted from Compassion: ?Why doesn?t she copy other tax payers??
Great question? Perhaps J.Zerox is still reading the unoriginal Fireside Series, ?The Master?s Key for Manipulating Time? in which imaginary Ramtha teaches the art of manifesting in a moment.
J.Zerox thinks she does not physically have to pay her taxes yet while she is walking back and forth, repeating these words ?For as long as I can remember, my property taxes have always been paid!?
Great question? Perhaps J.Zerox is still reading the unoriginal Fireside Series, ?The Master?s Key for Manipulating Time? in which imaginary Ramtha teaches the art of manifesting in a moment.
J.Zerox thinks she does not physically have to pay her taxes yet while she is walking back and forth, repeating these words ?For as long as I can remember, my property taxes have always been paid!?
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littlewiseone
- Posts: 327
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:26 am
- Location: US and A
not within
"the power is within me." I find that exactly the message of Christ. "....
Which Christ is that? Certainly all the channeled New Agey Christs parrot the within routine ad nauseum, but is that what the Gospel tradition says?
My answer has nothing to do with whether one is a Christian believer or not but I've looked into this thoroughly since my New Age days in the late 1970s.
I will be brief.: The Jesus of the Gospels is also called Emmanuel. or 'God is with us."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel
Another dumb mistake made by New Agers re Christology is that Jesus said "ye are gods" interpreted as You are God----wrong.
In context the word gods means "judges" as judges in the old Jewish tradition stood in place of God to judge right or wrong.
http://apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/yegods.htm
And last: Did the Gospel writers mean to write that Jesus said God is "within" you? Or was the true meaning God is among [with] you?
Here's a discussion that might help
http://www.puritanboard.com/f17/kingdom ... you-41000/
and here:
http://www.voiceofjesus.org/kingdom_not_within.html
or if you wish, attend an American Academy of Religion Conference sometime and wander around the 8000 scholars with Phds and advanced degrees in religious studies and ask one of them.
Which Christ is that? Certainly all the channeled New Agey Christs parrot the within routine ad nauseum, but is that what the Gospel tradition says?
My answer has nothing to do with whether one is a Christian believer or not but I've looked into this thoroughly since my New Age days in the late 1970s.
I will be brief.: The Jesus of the Gospels is also called Emmanuel. or 'God is with us."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel
Another dumb mistake made by New Agers re Christology is that Jesus said "ye are gods" interpreted as You are God----wrong.
In context the word gods means "judges" as judges in the old Jewish tradition stood in place of God to judge right or wrong.
http://apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/yegods.htm
And last: Did the Gospel writers mean to write that Jesus said God is "within" you? Or was the true meaning God is among [with] you?
Here's a discussion that might help
http://www.puritanboard.com/f17/kingdom ... you-41000/
and here:
http://www.voiceofjesus.org/kingdom_not_within.html
or if you wish, attend an American Academy of Religion Conference sometime and wander around the 8000 scholars with Phds and advanced degrees in religious studies and ask one of them.
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Compassion
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:58 pm
Re: Awareness Comes Before Change (Need to make a Correctio
Compassion wrote:Cat' I have a comedy show to get you on.Caterpillar wrote:Hello everyone
I used to think that JZ is a genius. I have since realized that she has not come up with anything original so she is definitely not a genius.
However, she is an excellent copier like Xerox (so reliable). Her middle initial, ?Z? is like ?Zerox?.
Question 'before the house': Why doesn't she copy other tax payers?
- Why would JZ not pay her property taxes (various times for each parcel) on properties in Yelm that she owns (which is many)? Maybe the auction money will get that done so Thurston County can get on with the business of the people.
Maybe someone paid the taxes and after three years, they will own either all the properties or they will get interest on their monies if back taxes are paid up. Then again, maybe the taxes are not paid because the properties are quietly for sale.
We will see after the auction, if the taxes get paid.
TODAY IS A goOd DAY!
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As I Recall It
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:45 pm
Hi mcgee!
I will assume that you made your statement in this one post and have probably never checked in again - despite some of the comments by others we really do all respect your opinion, if we don't then we are all hypocrits as we have all been exactly where you have are, we once held to the same beliefs and defended the same teachings no matter what.....we all thought and spoke like you once upon a time.
Like David McCarthy and Glen Cunningham I too feel that there was some good phylosophical stuff including how to take back our power and to take responsibility for everyhthing in our lives....that still makes a lot of sense but Yelm is not the only place that message is being taught.
I intend no disrespect to you but the proof is really in the pudding - some 70,000 students have allegedly passed through the school and at best estimates (2 years ago) there are allegedly around 6,700 current students - we would suggest that half of that number is now probably closer to the truth but let's settle on 6,700....can you please tell me (without resorting to Ramtha jargon) where the other 63,300 former students have gone and have you seriously asked yourself why they have left?
63,300 people all had similar desires to know the truth - all 63,300 were taught by the same 'amazing' self acclaimed teacher....why did they all leave?
There is an old saying that "a tradesman always blames his tools" and in this case we have an alleged master teacher who needs to resort to "blaming his own students" for not being able to stick with the teachings - I can assure you that we all went with the intent of 'seeing it through' but even this master teacher couldn't hold his flock together....he would get sacked if he was in the private school sytem for failing to deliver the numbers.
Now those of us who are no longer Ramsters know the answer...."the 3,000 to 6,000 (debatable) that remain are the 'best of the best' and they are not only smarter but are also more committed than the rest of us failures who just couldn't handle the heat".
I would suggest that you stop kidding yourself my friend - yes there were many who were never going to see it through but there were 'thousands' who did have what it took and devoted their lives to what they then believed in, and many of those were in positions of privelege - I.E. close to Judith and the Big R - so why did they leave???
I wonder!
I will assume that you made your statement in this one post and have probably never checked in again - despite some of the comments by others we really do all respect your opinion, if we don't then we are all hypocrits as we have all been exactly where you have are, we once held to the same beliefs and defended the same teachings no matter what.....we all thought and spoke like you once upon a time.
Like David McCarthy and Glen Cunningham I too feel that there was some good phylosophical stuff including how to take back our power and to take responsibility for everyhthing in our lives....that still makes a lot of sense but Yelm is not the only place that message is being taught.
I intend no disrespect to you but the proof is really in the pudding - some 70,000 students have allegedly passed through the school and at best estimates (2 years ago) there are allegedly around 6,700 current students - we would suggest that half of that number is now probably closer to the truth but let's settle on 6,700....can you please tell me (without resorting to Ramtha jargon) where the other 63,300 former students have gone and have you seriously asked yourself why they have left?
63,300 people all had similar desires to know the truth - all 63,300 were taught by the same 'amazing' self acclaimed teacher....why did they all leave?
There is an old saying that "a tradesman always blames his tools" and in this case we have an alleged master teacher who needs to resort to "blaming his own students" for not being able to stick with the teachings - I can assure you that we all went with the intent of 'seeing it through' but even this master teacher couldn't hold his flock together....he would get sacked if he was in the private school sytem for failing to deliver the numbers.
Now those of us who are no longer Ramsters know the answer...."the 3,000 to 6,000 (debatable) that remain are the 'best of the best' and they are not only smarter but are also more committed than the rest of us failures who just couldn't handle the heat".
I would suggest that you stop kidding yourself my friend - yes there were many who were never going to see it through but there were 'thousands' who did have what it took and devoted their lives to what they then believed in, and many of those were in positions of privelege - I.E. close to Judith and the Big R - so why did they leave???
I wonder!
There are those who simply return to the secondary group since BC is so costly. So the 'better and better students' are in reality the older students who don't want to spend their money for the same teachings they now know will be passed onto them even if in secondary. I sat in that audience when jz as ramtha told us to come to bc and 'he' would teach us how to levitate. Oh sure. As IF that happened. Nothing happened and the teaching from that bc event were passed on by video to the primary group in March. Some old timers didn't leave unfortunately but learned how to get around paying for the 'advantage' of having the coveted blue college title. 
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972