Abuse on EMF

Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:39 am

Abuse on EMF

On a previous thread titled Neuro linguistic Programming (NLP) in RSE,

View topic -
http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... .php?t=690

Some very serious issues and disagreements arose with the poster "Tree" that have yet to be fully explored and understood.
These types of issues have risen with several other posters over time, though they have been short lived.
Another Dimension60's recent post touched upon this issue with an excellent thread titled, "Behavior Patterns"
View topic -
http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... .php't=736

"Abusive Behavior Patterns on EMF"...!
Perhaps this is one of the most single important issues on EMF so far.
This is not likely to be an easy thread to navigate through, so consider that if you choose to continue reading it.
It has been extremely difficult to deal with, especially for the moderators that have the task of shielding sincere posters from 'wolves in sheep's clothing'. That statement is not to be mistaken as whining or attention seeking, because it clearly is not. This is about sharing our realizations and responsibilities to protect each other and the integrity of EMF..
Overall, there have been issues of posters that not only wrestle for control of posts on EMF, but the control of EMF itself,
This is all about forms of manipulation, lack of self control, abuse, and the methods these posters use to install an air of trust and standing to achieve a goal, that ultimately, meets their personal emotional needs, regardless of the cost and destruction they may inflict along the way to others.
Such people may claim they are in "recovery" from RSE, but upon reflection of their track record, their patterns have been likened to being a mirror of JZ Knight. Their actions support that they expect tolerance without criticism, entitlement, and if so much as the perception of slight is received by them, they become divisive and personally attacking. No tolerance for differences of opinion, or respectful disagreements that are not laced with hostility. EMF was designed to be a "support and information" forum.
Yet, in the name of that support, the moderators have set aside certain complaints from a number of people, suggesting that certain posters were not at their best, perhaps needed help, and we encouraged more tolerance and support.

Moderators themselves have tolerated ongoing slams from a minority of posters, who really aren't offering words of support, but who are a divisive menace on EMF. How much moderator patience and tolerance is wise ' When do the moderators of a forum start holding posters responsible for their own choice of words, instead of babysitting their posts with time consuming edits and deletions of the most offending posts ' When do the moderators of a forum who are trying to uphold a safe haven for supportive and sincere dialogue to happen, assure that it does ' When do the moderators stop being bullied with false claims of "censorship", which is in fact not that, but upholding the foundation and purpose of the forum: support ' EMF is three years old and has a track record that speaks for itself.
There are many posts that contain content that is personally disagreeable to the moderators and others on EMF. But, it remains. What is being addressed, please understand, is not a requisite of meeting any one dogma. It is a pattern of bullying, abuse and sabotage that is based on disrespect of what this forum represents; support and information being shared in an atmosphere of respect.

It is high time to explore our 'dirty laundry and all' and expose their actions and the possible consequences of our own inaction to deal with this honestly and head-on. To my mind this does not supersede the RSE issues, because they are rooted in the same RSE attitudes. This divisiveness goes on right here on our own doorstep, relatively unnoticed and unchallenged by some; very much obvious to a number of others. This is not a moderator issue; this is an issue from a number of people, including the moderators about ongoing issues that have not been appropriately addressed, in the name of "support and tolerance". Instead, that lack of action by the moderators, in the name of "allowing recovery victims", has deteriorated into never-ending personal attacks and discomfort for the general reader. For you, the general readers, we apologize for our lack of timely action. We value the posters on EMF who truly are about the business of offering support, information and doing so in an atmosphere of respectful tolerance of diversity; not enabling levels of divisiveness.

If you choose to follow or participate on this thread, I ask for your understanding, because 'this is NOT a witch hunt against any individual'. We are all in this together. This is about behavior, attitudes, responsibility, accountability & beliefs. It is about bullying, abuse, divisiveness, neediness, and its fallout.

There is a hidden wound on EMF that needs to see the light of day. Unfortunately the bandage has been left on for far too long. It may prove somewhat painful to remove it. This decision was not made lightly. But remove it we must, so the healing will be complete for all of those who are ready for it.

Unread post by **EMFWebmaster** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:42 am

10 Apr 2009 03:12 pm Caterpillar posted

Hello everyone

Thank you for all your posts. Tree and David, I note there is some conflict here. I hope there will be a resolution.

I read some of Tree's posts and was very touched by her honesty and courage to speak up especially being an ex-staff. That gave me the courage to explore my own dissatisfaction with RSE and eventually contacting EMF and posting questions here, some of which were answered by Tree. I'm not taking sides as to the conflict but I wanted to say I was motivated to post on EMF because an ex-staff was on board and I had questions that I wanted answered by someone that was 'close' to JZ.

My partner & I have just watched LARSE video with Joe S. and Carroll C.. We also watched Jeff K and Glen C's videos. Thank you for producing the videos as they have helped us immensely to process our thoughts and come to terms with our choice of joining RSE and staying for so long. What buffoons! It's quite humbling to admit that to self!

I have asked heaps of questions here in the last 2 weeks and got my answers. There appears to be evidence that JZ/R's teachings are not original. Ramtha's predictions and comments to some people are not all accurate. Carroll discussed the scientific study of Ramtha and mentioned that the results may also be seen in persons with multiple personality disorders. My partner had a hunch that maybe JZ has the ability to move to a part of her brain where she can be the Ramtha character and speak for hours without notes and drink a lot. Ramtha could be just another personality that JZ slips into. That could explain all the discrepancies in RSE and lack of evidence of any extraordinary/supernatural ability of Ramtha, the ascended master. JZ is definitely a genius and RSE 'was' the best show in town for us. She is the best actress and deserves the top Academy award/Golden globe award.

After listening to those videos, I now have a better understanding of where I'm at and why I feel betrayed and angry. I'm certainly wiser now and will not be a 'follower' or put any teacher on a pedestal. I was a victim of RSE and their very clever marketing/NLP techniques. I gave my power away totally to JZ/R eventhough I was taught that I am God. However, I've also gained knowledge from RSE and have enjoyed the events and company of Ramsters. That is also the 'trap' and one of the reasons for not exiting when I noticed the hyprocrisies.

Caterpillar coming to terms with RSE

******************************************

10 Apr 2009 03:12 pm David McCarthy posted

Minefields.....

Dear Caterpillar
Quote:
Thank you for all your posts. Tree and David, I note there is some conflict here. I hope there will be a resolution.

I read some of Tree's posts and was very touched by her honesty and courage to speak up especially being an ex-staff. That gave me the courage to explore my own dissatisfaction with RSE and eventually contacting EMF and posting questions here, some of which were answered by Tree. I'm not taking sides as to the conflict but I wanted to say I was motivated to post on EMF because an ex-staff was on board and I had questions that I wanted answered by someone that was 'close' to JZ.

It must be very confusing and somewhat disturbing to witness this conflict between Tree and the moderators aired on EMF,
and my apology to anyone if this is upsetting to you. Bullies often count on others not making a fuss about there actions.
Unfortunately bullies can also endear a certain amount of honesty, courage and "trust? while inflicting much harm before they are caught and called to account.
Tree is at the forefront of this issue, much like a fireman who would rather see the house burn down if he cannot control the fire engine...! For EMF to remain a safe haven for everyone to post, vitriolic behavior in all its forms must be kept off the board,
sounds simple enough, but understanding this sort of phenomenon and then moderating it on EMF has proved to be a minefield that has caused an enormous amount of distress and wasted time for the moderators.
It is also a dirty little subject hidden away that few want to get their hands dirty with, and that includes the EMF moderators... for fear it will blow up in our faces: and it has...
For that reason alone, I believe it is time to fully explore and debate these issues on a separate thread titled Abuse on EMF ASAP. EMF is not a place that shirks away from controversy nor "wolves in sheep's clothing stalking EMF..
It is with a respectful dialogue, honesty and compassion that we are succeeding in helping each other navigate safely out
"and free" of the RSE quagmire, something bullies have no concept of.

There are some things in life that need to be handled with gloves on...

David.

****************************

11 Apr 2009 12:32 am Tree posted

Caterpiller-

Thank you for seeing through the murky lens.
I have been honest, forthright, and furthermore,
acknowledged the function of EMF and how much it has
contributed to people getting out of RSE.
I have acknowledged the moderators for the hard work,
and I have apologized on several occasions when I stepped
"out of bounds."
This last bashing by David was expected and over the top.

Just as when someone overshadows JZ, JZ has a way of lambasting
them and then showing them out the door.

This has happened numerous times here on EMF to me.
I first find EMF.
Have the courage and gall to post my story.
And then, when my well written posts get a little too much
attention (and I am not talking about the post in which I might give
an opinion or query about someone's intention), I get slammed
first by whatcha, and then by David.

I would like you all to know,
there are several "behind the scenes" people who financially
contributed to the start of EMF who no longer post or visit here
for this very reason I just mentioned.
The very thing David is accusing me of is the thing he is doing himself.

I personally know of 6 people who have left RSE and no longer even visit
here because of David's and the moderator's attacks on me.

I have not mentioned this before NOR have I made a stink about their lambasting
me. But I have had just about enough.

It is not in me to be mean, or demeaning, or degrading to any extent or degree.
And if I have, I always apologize.

When I mentioned the pot calling the kettle black in another thread,
this is exactly what I am referring to.
The very thing David is accusing me of doing,
he is doing himself (with an little ammo from his silently named side kick).

I have been kind, gracious, open and occasionally wrong.
I am very open, honest and discerning.
I have also been fortunate to have had
alot of help along the way, including a number of professionals.
By this time, they would have for sure called me on the carpet
for any emotional or mental ill-doings.
I even bring in my posts and the responses
from people here
so the counselors know I am not blowing smoke
up their ass.

I hope that EMF strives to continually find its' kind hearted original
purpose and that it continues to be a fine jumping off point,
so to speak, for former members of RSE.

May David keep this post in its' entirety.
It will serve a grand purpose.

Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:41 am

Tree,

Your post will stand, as with many of your other posts on EMF, these will be explored in their entirety also.
Like I cautioned before, this will prove to be a "dirty laundry thread".
It would have been far more "convenient" for the EMF moderators to just ban you and your kind, end of story.
but this would bring little understanding in unmasking "in my opinion" the very corruption that enables Judith's "Ramtha" deception to exist in our society.
As always...when we lift "Ramtha's rock" to shine a light..... its not very pleasant what crawls out.
Its going to be bumpy ride..fasten your seat belts....!

I would like you all to know,
there are several "behind the scenes" people who financially
contributed to the start of EMF who no longer post or visit here

Before I respond to the issue of abusive behavior on EMF in full,
I have a simple question for you,.
Are those "behind the scenes people"...! fully aware and support what you are now posting on EMF?

David.

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:48 am

After having started a thread about "Abuse at EMF",
David pointed out that "no one is being singled out."
yet....in this thread:

Tree is at the forefront of this issue, much like a fireman who would rather see the house burn down if he cannot control the fire engine...!

So, the singling out remark is not accurate. It was pretty much smoke.

Furthermore,
if I were a fireman and I went to a house, I would definitely rescue the people inside
as I am not a (diagnosed) soiciopath (and I have paperwork to back that up).
So, for me to watch a house burn would be beyond my human comprehension.
So, for mere starters, I think this analogy is quite hyperbolic in nature.

Thusly so,
if this is such an incongruent metaphor,
it begs to differ about the rest of the metaphors you have singled me out with.
oh wait! EMF was not singling any one out! How daft of me!

Might I also point out,
several weeks ago,
we had 2 experts in the cult recovery arena disagree with
the moderators on 2 accounts.
I did point out then,
that this was the case and almost amusing in nature
as we have 2 moderators here who highly disagree with the venue or need of counseling,
as neither of them have sought that out for themselves,
other than to consult joe sz for the occasional thread here on EMF and FACT.NET
not to mention the fact that the experts were agreeing with my point.
But, uh...David sidestepped that quite nicely.

You know David And ________,
I have not been attacking either of you this entire time here.
I had an opinion on a recent post about withholding a very small amount of information
which resulted in this entire disagreement.
So, instead of being gracious,
you continued on your bashing of me.

1) It is only one person against two.
And that, in and of itself, is not fair.
2) This is your website.
as I have said before,
it is yours and I don't have to play here.
I have only posted when I think it helps people.
And now this topic has vastly digressed from helping anybody.
That is why I have posted minimally in the last 2 weeks.

As I said,
I wish you all the good tidings, and wishes, help and knowledge with your
heartfelt mission here with EMF.
It is a godsend in the internet community.
May people get out of RSE alive
and intact and find their way to more meaningful life
other than devoting themselves to "becoming god"
or monitoring a forum as a daily regimen.
Heartfelt posts do not need monitoring.

Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:59 am

Regarding my remark.....
Tree is at the forefront of this issue,
much like a fireman who would rather see the house burn down if he cannot control the fire engine...!
At the close of this topic thread I am sure this will be self evident to most EMF readers, but more importantly
our understanding and compassion is all the greater to strengthen our responsibilities to help protect each other.
Is this "A bridge too far?" we will see.

After having started a thread about "Abuse on EMF",
David pointed out that "no one is being singled out."
yet....in this thread:
So, the singling out remark is not accurate. It was pretty much smoke.

Tree,
Actually what I said was..

If you choose to follow or participate on this thread, I ask for your understanding, because this is NOT a witch hunt against any individual. We are all in this together. This is about behavior, attitudes, responsibility, accountability & beliefs. It is about bullying, abuse, divisiveness, neediness, and their effects.

I still have that simple question for you,.
Are those "behind the scenes people"...! you are referring to, fully aware and support what you are now posting on this thread?
I certainly know of one individual "G", and I will certainly take the opportunity to respond later.
I am puzzled to hear there are two....!
It is important for me and the readers to know a more few details of what you are referring to in order to respond.

David.

Compassion · Unread post by **Compassion** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:40 am

WOW! I wonder why there is so much resistance - 'to the grief of it all'. Grief is good; without grief there is no Self-love; without Self-Love there is no Life.

Compassion

Today Is A Good Day!

Caterpillar · Unread post by **Caterpillar** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:00 am

Hello David, Tree and Moderators

I don't mean to get involved in the 'politics' here. I understand that this sort of conflict can occur even on EMF as we have different personalities and opinions. It's worse as the written words can covey a different meaning as opposed to a face to face or phone conversation.

All I want to say is thank you again to the people (David, Whatcha, Joe, etc) who have set up LARSE/EMF. I'm also very grateful to Tree (ironically) who is the reason I even posted on EMF as I wanted an insider's honest opinion and experience of RSE.

I came to EMF to get information on RSE and I found it. I'm not bothered with the conflicts here but then I'm not in charge of EMF and have no past association with any of you.

Tree, I wish you all the best if you decide not to participate here. I'm glad I had the opportunity to 'chat' with you.

Caterpillar

Another Dimension60 · Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:26 pm

Cat 'In contemplating your response re Tree, it occurred to me that a next step in 'recovery', (at least one of many next steps), for me at least, seems to be about 'generalizing'/applying what I've learned in my experience with JZ and my 'recovery' from and integration of that experience. My post about a particular pattern of characteristics and behaviors (from now on noted as PPCB) has evolved through my reading here on EMF along with experiences with people in very different aspects of my life whose behaviors also fit this pattern.
Although each individual is very different in surface ways'each one, in iterating the described pattern, has helped me see it clearer in the other. For instance, as I mentioned in my previous post, I've been able to see with new clarity the dynamics with someone I've called friend for over 40 years. Part of the 'generalization' has also been an increased sensitivity to these subtle manipulations and charismatic personalities in the political arena, in our so-called news media, in our culture as a whole.
More specifically, for example ' you wrote how you were very touched by (Tree's) honesty and courage to speak up'which gave you courage to'. In the same vein, when I first met jz I 'was very touched by her honesty and courage'; 'That gave me the courage' to fly across the country to Dialogues(hadn't been on an airplane in years); to do something I'd wanted to do for 15 years ' move to the NW; to trust that 'The School' was a true next step in my evolution and being of greater service in my world. '. It was a painful journey to realize that what appeared to be honesty was lies and twisted truths, and what appeared to be courage is an unrelenting need to feed off others. '.

What I see is that people with this PPCB, in my experience, are instantly loveable people, charming, brilliant. We trust them. They provide interesting information. They seem to know/be able to do/understand somehow beyond our knowledge/abilities/understanding. Ultimately, though,everything they do and say is about them; somehow leaving you, though you love them still, feeling not enough, less than, not as 'in the know' as them; somehow being made or encouraged to feel grateful that they've allowed you into their space; a space in which there is to be no disagreement, no questioning, no expressed observation of their behavior, no allowance for anyone else to know more or something before they know it; a space in which you will always be wrong; in which if there is upset, it is always your or someone else's fault.

I can simply, humbly, gratefully acknowledge that my experience with JZ and my 'friend' and emf and similar others have provided me an opportunity for learning and growth. ' as can any experience or person be in our lives if we so choose. (and, I'm grateful to be living in the NW!). That doesn't change the facts of their self-centered ultimately abusive behavior, make it right, or in any way ok. I can appreciate and sincerely love a person with these characteristics, and (finally) say NO, you do not have my permission to hurt abuse use suck off me ' or anyone else - anymore. My questions remain: how do we learn to recognize people with these behavior patterns; what are the 'red flags'; how do we not let ourselves be caught; how do we warn others so they won't be hurt.

Another Dimension60 · Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:31 pm

On the 'mental health' thread watcha discussed the notion that brainwashing may not be the only or universal cause of 'hookedness' into an organization/cult/whatever ' such as jz's. In contemplating and writing down about certain 'behavior patterns'/PPCB, a key phenomenon seems to be the seemingly uncontrollable love of the person with these behaviors. Perhaps it's (what to me is) the mystery of what has also been labeled a 'charismatic personality' ' (Which is not to say /mean that all people with charisma are abusers or all people with PPCB are charismatic in whatever the true sense of that word is!).
Also in my process with these questions, I remembered that 20 or more years ago I sometimes warned people about my 'so called friend' ' I had observed too many times how she drew people in and ultimately hurt them. ' I remembered too how the warnings never worked. '. And it isn't as if I haven't emotionally stepped back over time in different 'phases' from my so called friend over the last at least 30 years; and it isn't as if I hadn't FINALLy recognized some of the consistent patterns of behavior and FINALLY was centered enough not to be so radically impacted by those behaviors --- It's that only now have I realized that in spite of what I thought was my emotional distance and recognition of how consistently hurtful my friend has been, that there is a part of me that still yearns for mutual recognition of what I perceived as our 'connection'; still part of me that doesn't accept the impossibility of such simple honesty. What is that'!' Sickness' incorrigible optimism' Some twisted energetic link' Eckhart Tolle's negative energy thing'

There are 'con artists'/charismatic personalities/self-centered users of others of all sorts in all sorts of roles ' why do we get conned' ' even when we think we're so astute, so perceptive, so intuitive, so mature so whatever that we believe we can spot the con. ''.Prior to getting hooked into jz/ramtha, I didn't believe in gurus, 'Teachers', groups or even channelers ' I certainly didn't believe in the value of cults, and considered myself not a 'follower' type of person ' and I was snookered by jz. And, as watcha indicated for herself, even within the context of the 'ranch', I felt different from those I considered fanatic, and was very much on the fringes. In the midst of a thousand milling talking warrior crying people in the arena, I could find the quiet place within me' ' yet, bottom line, I was as hooked as anyone else. Brainwashed or not. Hypnotized or not. I don't have answers, only questions '

Another Dimension60 · Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:37 pm

Short of a literal 'ephiphanous' miracle I don't think JZ will ever be able to see or own up to her behavior and how very many people she has hurt. I suspect she could read EMF posts all day long and would continue to laugh at, blame, accuse, judge anyone who disagrees with her/Ramtha. Tree, your posts on emf have, to me, reflected behavior so like JZ's I had to wonder for a while if you weren't her in disguise. Every word, concept, accusation, maneuver in just your NLP posts are absolute jz ramtha speak ' let alone your more recent response in the Abuse thread. Your posts are consistently predictable and reflect the characteristics and behavior patterns listed in my previous post. Therefore I have little hope that you are able to recognize or own up to your behavior on emf, and how very many people you have hurt.
Your response to Marie's post re her Sister is a clear an unadulterated example. Marie shares a heart rendering story of personal pain and estrangement from her loved ones - and your response is about you and some absurd irrelevant accusation/taunt/ mud slinging at me'!'! - -- In one of your NLP responses you made the accusation/judgment re 'apples and oranges' --- And so in this case you toss rotten oranges into a sweet apple pie. My question to you had been regarding your utter disdain and consistent bashing of ramsters while continuing to rent to, work for, hire, read about ramsters/jz/her minions. To me it is obvious that there is no relationship between that question to you and Marie's story. That it is not obvious to everyone else is mind boggling to me ' just as it is mind boggling to me that we didn't 'get' jz prior to being suckered and that people can't see what we now see ' just as it is mind boggling to me that some posters here don't see the self-centered consistency of your posts. But then it's still mind boggling to me that when people in my life saw the truth of jz, I was convinced they were wrong. It's mind boggling to me that it took me 40 years to recognize the obvious in my so called friend!
It is not my intention or desire to get into a mudslinging pissing battle with you or anyone else. My posts have been an attempt to better understand our experience with jz, and other people in our lives, to learn not to fall into the same trap again, and to warn others. When to me many of your posts make me sick, physically, emotionally, spiritually, I've watched other people be suckered into your pose as the all wise knowing compassionate intelligence expert on cults and recovery and everything about jz and ramtha etc'. It's too painful for me to go through each of your posts and point out the obvious. It also would put you once again where you seem to most need to be ' at the center of attention, once again distracting and dividing people's attention and energy from what is important. For you to again and again and again demean and judge and so falsely accuse the moderators of this website is, to me, sufficient reason to tell you to stop posting here. You're right in saying heartfelt posts don't need to be moderated. But posts like yours do.
This is not a political issue or a matter of simple disagreement. In the same way that we got suckered by JZ and abused on so many levels by her and weren't able until one fine morn to wake up and realize the emperor has no clothes, we have gotten suckered by Tree who has consistently and predictably abused emf and individuals on so many levels - - In the same vein that emf is about helping others to heal, move on and learn from their jz/ramtha experience, my pointing out the sameness of JZ's and Trees mindset and behavior is an attempt to point out what I have seen and learned, warn people, and invite you to see for yourselves.

Caterpillar · Unread post by **Caterpillar** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:40 pm

AD60, as per my previous posts, all I wanted to say is that Tree was my 'runner'

in exiting RSE. I haven't actually paid much attention to Tree's behavior on EMF as I have only read the posts that were relevant to me and she answered my questions without abuse. I have been to some events that she had mentioned in previous posts and she described the events accurately. It seems that the dissatisfaction with some of Tree's posts is not a recent thing. I wasn't bothered with the politics as I'm only here to find info about people's reasons for leaving RSE. I did NOT know about the extent of Tree's behavior here as described by you. Hmmm don't think Tree is JZ in disguise.

I'm still processing the shock of FINALLY leaving RSE. When I started writing here about 2.5 weeks ago, I was only seeking info and didn't think I would be exiting RSE. I even bought air tickets to an overseas event which I will now use for a vacation. Thanks for pointing out my naive pattern of behavior.

Caterpillar

journeythroughramthaland · Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:23 pm

why do we get conned? ? even when we think we?re so astute, so perceptive, so intuitive, so mature so whatever that we believe we can spot the con. ??.

Ad60,

There are a myriad of answers to the question you pose here, one of the answers I believe is the fact that we do have the ability to think we are so astute, intuitive, mature or whatever that we can spot the con.

As soon as one thinks that, ones guard is dropped, one thinks they know all the ways in which they can be conned when in fact the ways are virtually unlimited and dependent upon the lengths to which a con will go to hook their victim.

Knowing and realizing that one can always be conned if the con is good enough at least can provide one with the ability to examine what might be occurring and then the ability to try and check out their suspicions.

I am of the mind that it is not about how "aware" one is that prohibits or allows the con, it is how "good" the con is.

Or, perhaps another answer to your question would be to become just the type of personality you describe. Since they are so self centered, manipulative, they will more then likely always be too busy with their own agenda to be conned by another. Perhaps this is one of the factors which can draw us towards these personalities and one of the factors which add to their charisma is their seeming invulnerability to things the rest of us are vulnerable to.

Another Dimension60 · Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:19 pm

Blessings to you Cat / Exquisite Butterfly - you are the courageous one - not only were you willing to read emf, you apparently have done so with an open mind and heart. 2.5 weeks is not very long to absorb and integrate such. It's like a death; a divorce; a lost career job; the betrayal of a friend. It takes time to heal and renew.

It occurred to me in contemplating your previous post and my response(s) that's its taken me 20 years!! to see this pattern in jz, in my life and to recognize some of the 'red flags' - so I'm the slow learner here.! And yes, Tree has been a runner for me in this way. Not all of Tree's posts are overtly abusive, just as not all of jz's spewing as ramtha is abusive - some of it is pure poetry, some valid information, some inspiring to grand awareness, and some utter drivel, and all in an overall context of suckering you in. They did. Me. You. and many others. It's ok. We're learning.
And thank you journey for your serious and sincere consideration of my questions --
Maybe it's just a fact of life that some day somehow we'll be conned. Maybe we can catch some of the 'red flags' in time, maybe not. Maybe part of the lesson then is not to blame ourselves for being so caught in someone's sticky web/con.

And are the cons always conscious of what they do' And to what degree. Certainly some as JZ are conscious of their manipulations - some call it being a good salesman! - Some, perhaps as Tree, are not so conscious. No matter, they certainly don't seem able to accept responsibility for their actions. Another 'gift', so to speak, from them is a heartfelt prayer that I not be so blind to my own behavior; that I not inadvertently hurt others for my own needs.

And maybe no matter what, so what if we trust in the goodness and honesty of people and get burned now and then - better than becoming totally cynical and mistrusting. And perhaps its a question of balancing love of God/Whatever/Truth/Love and self and other. Perhaps for some of us, at least, it's been a matter of not trusting ourselves and God that speaks within as much as we've trusted some other. some external god.

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:54 pm

AD said:

Some, perhaps as Tree, are not so conscious.

lol. Sounds like someone
else I once knew telling me how I was/am. um.....I think I know better by now.

thank you for your assessments. They are quite off, and I have not assessed you in any such way.
Have I labeled this
little behavior abusive? I think not. But I could. But I shan't.
Three pees in a pod......

Most of all, before I read that silly quote:

To all of you who have been so kind and supportive to me and sending me PM's,
thank you. It means so much to me at this time .
The moderators have found it necessary to disable my ability to reply to you
or send a PM in return.
I think the posts speak in and of themselves without me having to attack
David, whatcha and what was her name? or even defend myself.

why? so more people can misconstrue and attack?

If someone wants some clarification, you all know I am willing.
And to the responder across the pond,
yes, I agree, I maybe could have not said a word about withholding information.
That would have been most diplomatic, especially when this is not my sandbox.
I hear you. Thank you.

And to the two recently out people....
My heart goes out to you. More than you know.
It is a very rough path, especially if you put your heart and soul into the teachings
like many of us did.
Keep yourself grounded, above all. Walk, touch the trees, touch the water, do yoga, whatever.
You will need to do this for some time.
Talk when you need to. VERY important.
And have a trusting confidante. That was my saving grace.

The very nature of the moderators ability to encourage this divisiveness speaks of itself
in this thread.
For this, I am sad because that is how RSE and other cults operate.
You are either one of us, or you are not.
Quite sad as we are all humans on this journey-whatever that means to each one of us.
Starting a new one titled "Abusive on EMF" is not entirely inviting nor does it encourage
looking at the subject objectively.
But good luck with that.

Thank you again PM'ers.
Keep grounded....

Kindest regards,

Tree

ex · Unread post by ex » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:03 pm

Some very serious issues and disagreements arose with the poster "Tree" that have yet to be fully explored and understood. These types of issues have risen with several other posters over time, though they have been short lived.

Yes, Tree has her corners. Who doesn't? She is an individual with unique experiences and a long history of willingness to help others. This current disagreement is blown out of proportion. What posts are welcome here ? All posts, I hope.

We all were part of a cult so we all have at least a little disability--some scaring and ugly leftover baggage. Let's not let this negatively influence our communication--<b> our </b>board. Our vulnerabilities and tender spots need to be healed and our board provides a venue for healing.

When we allow our emotions and personal stances to become bigger than the purpose of the board, the only smiling persons here are jzr and current cult members. They sit and smirk when they read of our inability to share and discuss in a mature, intelligent way. Public arguments pull at the foundations of any organizations or organized groups.

There are very importent issues on this board [like jzs plagerising, her inabilaty to make actual, clear predictions beyond the obvious, the ones we know as famous descrepancies] and they shouldn't get lost or sidetracked by animosity. [thats hijacking tactic of a tiger] Internal politics are probably impossible to avoid. However, they cannot take control of this board. Let's recognize them for what they are and keep them in perspective.

In my opinion, there are a few things that we <b>must</b> keep in mind and as our guiding principles. This list came off the top of my head--there are other positives, I'm sure.

We bring the common experience of having been cult members to the board.

We all want to put this experience in our past and move forward in a healthy, happy, and prosperous way.

We all want to help other members of the board. We help one another--in obvious ways, and in subtle ways.

We agree to disagree and do so with respect and regard that we may have emotional scars from the cult experience

We agree that all opinions and information shared here are welcome. There is no such thing as a wrong opinion--only personal opinions which are completely valid for the person sharing.

We agree that we are a diverse group of people and all bring something unique to the board. (Males, females, youth, seniors, short, tall, heavy, thin, doctors, lawyers, Indian Chiefs, farmers, retail salespersons, care givers, carpenters, janitors, and lots and lots of other things about this group of individuals.)

We agree that we contribute to the board in ways that express our views and ourselves. We will remember that although we have the anonimity of a board name, what we say reflects on ourselves.

Let's keep our focus, our goals and objectives as intended. Let's have a board that is full of ideas and camaraderie--one that we look forward to reading and feel good when we close the last window.

Code: Select all

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:23 pm

When we allow our emotions and personal stances to become bigger than the purpose of the board, the only smiling persons here are jzr and current cult members.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

tree · Unread post by **tree** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:58 pm

ex-

thank you for taking time to put your thoughts together with some help
as I know English is not your mother tongue.
Thank your friend for helping in the grammar
and thank you for searching out
for standing and stating so strongly
what we all steadfastly hopefully occurs:
and that is for regular human beings to going
back (somehow) to a "normal" life after RSE.

Thank you sooo much for your efforts and words.

G2G · Unread post by **G2G** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:09 am

So many here have posted their experiences while in RSE, both good and bad. Of course, not all will agree.

Jmo, but why not keep the "behind the scenes" spats exactly there - behind the scenes. Tree, Whatcha, David, Joe...everyone has been of help here. Please, I at least ask, exhibit tolerance. ::shrug:: Maye it's just me, but I can't see anything that Tree (sorry to keep using names) has done that is horrible. If we wish to NOT be as JZ, we must also drop the pettiness and try and rise to a more humane human condition. jmo.

Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:14 am

Thank you everyone for your input thus far.

ex,

This current disagreement is blown out of proportion.

I disagree,
This goes so much further than a 'political' disagreement blown out of proportion between an EMF member and the moderators.
This is an issue at the very core of how and why we were initially fooled into the ranks of RSE to begin with,
We are dealing with exactly the same complex issues of physiological abuse and its subsequent denial and cover-ups at RSE.
This I hope will become self evident as this thread unfolds,. I cannot emphasize enough how important this thread is.
Its our very own "EMF Pandora's box" that has only been opened a crack so far... we have a way to go.
I have yet to even begin a response to Tree's abusive behavior on EMF and subsequent lying and smearing to cover her tracks.
These tactics are worthy of JZ Knight herself, we now have an opportunity to explore this head-on.
JZ Knight cannot exist without her enablers, it is a symbiotic relationship that neither understands nor can admit too.
If we on EMF turn a blind eye to this abuse just because 'Tree is one of us', then EMF will collapse under the weight of its own hypocrisy. I will not standby and mutely allow this to happen. Thus this topic of 'Abuse on EMF' will see its course.
The equations are not difficult to understand once all the information is presented in its true proportion.

Dear Tree,
This is the third and final time .....I will care to ask you,

I still have that simple question for you,.
Are those "behind the scenes people"...! that you are referring to, fully aware and support what you are now posting on this thread?
I certainly know of one individual "G", and I will certainly take the opportunity to respond later.
I am puzzled to hear there are two....!
It is important for me and the readers to know a more few details of what you are referring to in order to respond.

Have these people been banned from EMF?
Please address my questions, they are straightforward enough for an honest reply,

David.

Another Dimension60 · Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:12 pm

by the way, I don?t like crowds, so being in a "pod" is not my thing ? in the metaphor of veggies, I?m more carrot like....

Robair · Unread post by **Robair** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:34 pm

Hello here we go.
Good Morning
Hey Well this morning while watching the Horizon project My PC froze and lost what was in the Minimize waiting to be posted. Do you guys think That is a sign for me to get prepare Again for TDTC??,and start working on my third UG this time in concrete, WOW WAIT, I am sitting at my desk looking at my pool and there it is the perfect place, all I have to do is drain the water, put a concrete roof,,a door, few air vent, fill up the deep end with 10 years food supply and there we go that simple READY.
Anyway I an not writing it again, AD did very well by bringing up the Behavior subject in his/her post I would have also brought up NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) subject,for the reason that while researching on the net about Behavior NPD came up on the top of the list so I looked into that also,witch seam to dovetail with Behavior.
That article mention also that nearly everyone has some Narcissistic traits.
Anyway I am just starting looking in Disorder problems really do not known that much about it yet but will.
Since Tree is the center of attention here,I would like to ask if anyone here knew her prior to this site,meaning during the time she was in the school,her Behavior,her relationship, all that stuff or would be unfair to bring that up,and judge her only by what she has posted here.

My Two cents
Oldone

Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:58 am

Anyway I am just starting looking in Disorder problems really do not known that much about it yet but will.

Oldone,

I recently came across the term... "Stung by a Narcissist". So very fitting when moderating a narcissist on EMF...!

David.

Narcissists at work: How to deal with arrogant, controlling, manipulative bullies
http://www.cio.com.au/article/224426/na ... 5202&rid=1

(NPD) by Jef Gazley, M.S., LMFT, DCC

http://www.asktheinternettherapist.com/ ... sorder.asp

Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:30 am

As time and tide permits. I would like to respond to several of Trees posts.
Tree posted on the Neuro linguistic Programming (NLP) in RSE thread. Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:02 pm
http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... .php?t=690

Well, now that I know what it is you are "trying to expose"
I have done a little research myself.
I spoke to Carol Giambalvo personally today.
She is aware of the post and the conflict on EMF.
She did not receive David's e-mail re his request this week.
She did receive Joe's e-mail.

Carol did not receive my email for no other reason than she had changed her email address.
Although I addressed my email to the correct ICSA contact on their website.

She did recall the interaction with you David, and as you put it, "slammed the door in my face."
She did clarify that at the time you requested videoing the conference, she re-iterated again,
for the sake of clients' personal safety, that no conference was to be video taped.
Perhaps there was a misunderstanding.

This not correct, after initially offering my services free of charge to video tape the conference with full editing control of the tapes to the ICSA.
Carol was not closed to the idea initially as her email below testifies.

From: "Carol Giambalvo" <affcarol>
Subject: RE: The Colorado Conference
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 15:36:36 -0400

[****spoke to me about this at the conference last week. While I appreciate where you and David are coming from, we have to look at the bigger picture. We like getting information out there, but we must be very, very careful about what goes out on the web. If we make such information available, we may, in fact, be putting valuable information (to ex-members) and ammunition in the hands of those people causing the harm. We have a policy not to allow any taping (audio or visual) at workshops. Perhaps we can sit down and talk about this at more length at the workshop. Looking forward to meeting both of you!

Carol Giambalvo

************

Then something went seriously awry when I received this Email out of the blue from Carol G
Stating??

Subject: Recovery Workshop
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 10:19:10 -0700
From: "Carol.Giambalvo" <Carol>

Dear David,
I've had correspondence with ------- regarding your desire to film the recovery workshop at St. Malo's.
I would like to make absolutely clear that ICSA's firm policy is that no audio or video recording or still pictures are permitted at our workshops.
The issue is not open for any further consideration. I'm hopeful that your commitment to the workshop is for your own personal recovery.
If this policy will get in the way of your participation in the workshop, you might want to consider withdrawing and finding another avenue to meet your particular needs. I certainly hope that is not the case and look forward to meeting you.
Sincerely,
Carol Giambalvo

My point is.. Those issues of privacy and protection was not at issue until ?G? mentioned to Carol that I was intending to video tape interviews outside of the ICSA conference regardless if I taped the conference itself.

?Perhaps there was a misunderstanding?.

Nope, no misunderstanding here. Just gross interference.

Carol has now retired from ICSA.

Carol has not retired from the ICSA.

She does not, was never trained in nor ever use NLP in any exit counseling.
She thought that was absurd exposing the very people who may have been exposed to
it, only to trigger possible episodes.

This does not make my initial question absurd nor is it "trying to expose" ICSA to ask....
Does your organization favors the use, or has ever used "Neuro-linguistic programming" within your ICSA workshops and counseling programs designed to help former members of cult involvement?.

Just wanted to clear that up.

I have several other of Tree's posts to respond to in due time.

David.

Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:32 am

This thread is about Abuse on EMF,
The following examples are not posts from Tree.

Here are just a few examples of what the EMF moderators have to put up with...
What happened..?
The moderators dared to "moderate EMF" and remove abusive remarks......

The bread and roses....

"Tyger"
I just want to offer my personal thanks and congratulations to David and the rest here for their patience and incredible effort on this web site. You guys ROCK!!!!!!!

The poison..

"Tyger"
This has been fun....kinda-sorta. Unfortunately for you guys, I have to make good on my promises and the "moderators",
I don't take to all the personal attacks and threats kindly.
Anyway....I'm bored shitless with this person deleting everything I've written....so I just forwarded it on to a few buddies of mine with far too much time on their hands, and am going to hit the hay with some sweet dreams on my agenda.
You guys have fun. I know I did. Too bad your social skills weren't more developed. Seriously....it's a shame.
Anyway....enjoy the ride

More bread and roses....

"Tyger"
Just another note of thanks to you and your moderators for giving me the freedom to post some off topic stuff for the site too.

The poison..

"Tyger"
You remove another one of my posts, and I'll just bring in a TON of real heavy hitters (you read: REAL heavy hitters)
to this website and take it apart piece by piece.?
?Tell you what.
In the interests of my former training and what I do for a living....let's make this quick.
You remove another one of my posts, and I'll just bring in a TON of real heavy hitters (you read: REAL heavy hitters)
to this website and take it apart piece by piece.?

"Wolfman" You really don'y understand the ways of the world David.
And thus YOU ARE THE SOCIOPATH.......Innocent and Ignorant as you are.
I "will" be back posting back at EMF.
Its up to you to be able to pick me out.
Enjoy you pathetic job and enjoy your DISease.
You have invited it ALL.

But the worst kind of abuse is far more transparent, clever and divisive, thus ultimately more destructive on EMF.

David.

ordinarymind · Unread post by **ordinarymind** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:51 am

The poison..

Quote:
You remove another one of my posts, and I'll just bring in a TON of real heavy hitters (you read: REAL heavy hitters)
to this website and take it apart piece by piece.?
?Tell you what.
In the interests of my former training and what I do for a living....let's make this quick.
You remove another one of my posts, and I'll just bring in a TON of real heavy hitters (you read: REAL heavy hitters)
to this website and take it apart piece by piece.?

This is all pretty confusing to me I must admit ... .I thought the above post was a post by Tyger ... and yet, the implication to me seems to be that it is now being credited to Tree ...I'm not sure what to make of all this and feel saddened by the conflict. I hope you are able to resolve all this soon so that the real good that EMF is doing can continue.
My two cents,
OrdinaryMind

ex · Unread post by ex » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:52 am

i agree guys like tiger? or tiger got too much tolerance.sadly they used up the patience of the moderators.even so i agree to leave a post like rse hatemails on the board for exposing the true mindset.maybe we get a< garbagebinthread>for posts like the above one .also i realy apreeciate this board for the help it got me.to see that i am not a loony and not alone.there is the danger that emf is the next cult for me.my frind made me aware that i read this board together with the news.kind of obsessive when you look at it.hope you two can shake hands soon.i hate to see davids work sabotaged but no chance that this got just out of hands?

Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:10 am

ordinarymind,

This is all pretty confusing to me I must admit ... .I thought the above post was a post by Tyger ... and yet, the implication to me seems to be that it is now being credited to Tree

Sorry for the confusion, No this was not Tree's posts, if it was she would have been banned long ago.
What I was trying to convey was more to the point of..

But the worst kind of abuse is far more transparent, clever and divisive,
this is what the moderators have been struggling to moderate with Tree's posts..
ultimately this is much more destructive on EMF.

David.

Another Dimension60 · Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:44 pm

G2 ' Because I respect and appreciate you/your posts, I'll spend some more time in attempt of clarification.
First ' as per the carrot metaphor ' I'm more the loner type ' that the webmasters got fed up with Tree's posts is their fed up-ness. Time and again Tree's posts have caused a reaction in me of never wanting to read, let alone post on emf again. To me, Tree's NLP posts were so unnecessarily self-centered, distractive, rude, demeaning judging accusing dividing, so jz/ramtha like that it was for me the last drop. I invite you to read those posts again. A serious question/issue was raised, relevant to everyone ' Tree's response had nothing to do with the question, put the attention on her and her superior vision, planted mistrust of the webmasters and other posters, questioned the integrity, mental health, and motivation of the webmasters while presenting herself as gracious honest more advanced in mental/emotional stability, and more knowledgeable than the rest of us'. Perhaps because she has done the same thing before when someone posts info she does not have, that the pattern of behavior previously described became crystal clear. (See: http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... .php't=485.)
Second ' this is not to me something personal or political or a petty issue or an issue just with the webmasters. I'm just another poster here ' with the same intention that I believe emf was formed with ' to help ourselves and each other understand and heal and move on from jz/ramtha. I have watched time and again people drawn into Tree, in the very same way we have been drawn into jz. Time and again I have seen people hurt by Tree, accused judged cursed blamed ridiculed demeaned. Where is the line of freedom of speech and allowing a bully to continue bullying' Perhaps if you have not been reading emf since its beginning, it's more difficult to see the predictable patterns of behavior. The metaphor used on emf of slowly heating the frog 'til it's boiled to death as description of involvement with jz/ramtha is, in my opinion, what Tree's posts do.
It was, as previously noted, a very painful journey to recognize, and attempt to articulate, and actually post what I personally/carrot-ly have observed here and in other areas of my life. What is my responsibility as a human being to other people ' do I share what I see, ' do I warn ' as emf attempts to warn re jz/ramtha' do I keep silent' I've tried before in more indirect ways to invite people to pay attention to certain characteristics. The webmasters have indicated that they have had to delete some of Tree's posts, so we haven't seen the worst; and that she was banned for awhile for such posts. I don't need to know Tree or the webmasters to see/experience the offensiveness overall of Tree's posts. To me, Tree's statements: 'It is not in me to be mean, or demeaning, or degrading to any extent or degree. And if I have, I always apologize. 'I have been kind, gracious, open and occasionally wrong. I am very open, honest and discerning.' are over the top in absurdity, let alone denial of the blatantly obvious.
And, if for no other reason, no other post than Tree's sarcastic, demeaning and insulting comments to the webmasters on the NLP thread is, to me, reason enough to invite her to stop posting. Why should the webmaster's have to tolerate such treatment when they voluntarily sacrifice hours and hours and hours of their own busy family lives to facilitate this message board. What is the value and validity of Tree's comments.'

Another Dimension60 · Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:59 pm

G2. Although the following is personal in the sense that it's using examples of Tree's response to me - the overall issue to me is not personal. Please consider the following again and ask yourself again if Tree's posts are "kind and gracious open and discerning", or mean, or "emeaning, or degrading".
Consider this: if you told me that you were allergic to peanuts, that they were quite offensive to your system, even being in the presence of peanuts was distressing ? and then told me how you keep bowls of (unshelled) peanuts everywhere in your home and snacked on peanuts every evening --- wouldn?t it be a fairly logical question for me to ask you why do you do that if peanuts are so bad for/to you?
In the same vein, Tree has consistently stated how terribly Ramsters have treated her, how offensive they are to her, and has consistently bashed demeaned and degraded them; and most recently stated: "I never wanted to see any ramsters while I was still there 1 1/2 years after my exit. Just seeing them caused a severe panic attack. I avoided them at all costs." ? meanwhile, per her own posts, renting to, working for, hiring, selling to and regularly researching ramsters. Is it not a fairly logical question for me to ask ? based on Tree?s posts ? why? And what were her responses: sarcasm, judgment, denial, avoidance of the question, divisiveness, accusation. (Current Students..Just Wondering..pg 1.. March 27 or so.. http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... 22&start=0 )
I asked the question again. No response until another irrelevant, self-centered response after Marie?s (what to me was) heart touching story re her Sister. Once again ? look at her posts ? once again putting the attention on herself. Once again making it perfectly clear that she is not to be questioned and if disagreed with in any way will always blame accuse demean judge the other person ? kinda just like jz/ramtha does.
I?m sorry G2, I?m just plain tired of it. Differences of opinion and perspective are one thing, - self-centered distracting divisive ?I know more than anyone else and after all I was the biggest victim and I was on staff and I?ve talked to experts and I?ve been diagnosed with this and that and am therefore an expert on everyone?s mental health status and know exactly what everyone else needs? is not ultimately helpful, and is ultimately destructive.

ordinarymind · Unread post by **ordinarymind** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:45 pm

ex wrote:also i realy apreeciate this board for the help it got me.to see that i am not a loony and not alone.there is the danger that emf is the next cult for me.my frind made me aware that i read this board together with the news.kind of obsessive when you look at it.

Yes, I have wondered that about myself also...am I transferring my addiction to RSE to an addiction to this board? . ...I too start my day by reading it and it is on my mind throughout the day

Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:41 pm

Like I warned everyone.
This thread Abuse on EMF will to be difficult and challenging.

I received this email today from "Wolfman"....
This particular poster had been posting and supporting EMF for several years now,
Until Dec 9 2008 when he posted a very Very nasty and personal attack towards Watcha and Aussiegirl
for no other reason than they happened to have a difference of opinion.
His post was immediately removed by the moderators.

Up until today.... "Wolfman" was not banned from EMF...!

May he receive a much greater understanding and healing than we were able to offer him on EMF.

David.

*******************

Dear David,

Your comments on EMF show a focus of ignorance.
My personal experience shows my own awareness.
You will hear from me in the future.
WE WILL SEE, is all I will say for now.
I wish you would not condem the American Way as you have on EMF.
The American way does not ACT as you have written.
You BACK the Welfare State projected by the current US media.
Go back to Australia..... PLEASE.
Your children are not welcomed here in my country.
We don't need any more like yourself here in WA.
WHY ARE YOU HERE?
I WILL BE REPORTING YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN TO THE AUTHORITIES.
dennis -------l usa citizen.
maybe jz knight can help you BUT I want you out of MY country.
WHO SPONSERS YOUR WEBSITE????????

d

Another Dimension60 · Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 pm

and I have also wondered... ... perhaps it's related to the same hunger that led us into jzland - the desire to know and understand and grow. The big big big differences - there are no fees, no financial gain for anyone - in fact, financial loss for the webmasters; nothing to join, no group, no specific belief system, no particular point of view (except the clearly stated purpose of the website and clearly stated guidelines for posting). We're free to come and go at will. The moderators do their best to keep the site clear of spam and porn, and abusive posts. There's no single leader to follow or agree with - a diversity of people with a diversity of backgrounds experiences and perspectives. There's no use of manipulative techniques, nothing being sold, no prominent personality to obey. There's no structure, organization, group to belong to. There are only a few people who have dedicated their lives to providing others a constructive playground on which to play and learn, if they choose - or not. Even after many years as an 'ex', I continue to learn and increase my understanding and am greatly appreciative of this message board and its posters.
And I agree that we do need to be more mindful of what we get 'hooked' into. Even as valuable as emf is, participation by reading and or posting needs to be kept in balance with the rest of our lives. Unlike a cult, there is nothing being done overtly or covertly to make you participate or keep coming back. Many folks have come and gone, some to return, some not.

Another Dimension60 · Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:54 pm

ps - my last comments were in reference to ex's and ordinary's query re emf being/becoming a cult. took me too long to post it so it may seem like a nonsequitor....
If it should be moved to another thread, webmaster, go for it.... I see you have other stuff to say more specific to the abuse issue on this thread and I don't want to divert it. Thanks.

Whatchamacallit · Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:27 am

I have two posts that I have written out, and have not yet posted. Sometimes, when a person is one of multiple moderators on a forum, they find themselves in a certain situation. Of course, even moderators have their own viewpoints and opinions about issues. So, for me to post the two posts I've written up, how do I share that with readers ? Do I post as a moderator, thus giving the impression that every word I typed is also supported fully by every other moderator ? It may or may not be, given any given situation. Even if all of the moderators do agree, it is still nevertheless true, that moderators should also be able to have their own voices ~ which may at times ~ dovetail both their personal and moderator voice.

So, after mulling over what the best thing to do is, and when, I just want to preface via THIS post, that after reading this thread tonight, it is clear to me, what to do. The following two posts I will post as "Whatchamacallit" allows me to have my own voice, even though the role of moderator is mentioned. It's no secret here that I'm one of the moderators, so please just bear in mind the backdrop of dual roles that my next two posts will be commenting about.

As for the comments on here by David and AD60, I must say that I do agree. While I find the need for this thread somewhat sad, I understand that it's high time that it takes place. The wiggles of discomfort that one may feel can be avoided by not reading the thread, or gaining wisdom from it. Whatever works for each of us in that way.

The decision to have this thread was not easy to make nor taken lightly. As David just commented upon again today, this thread can be challenging and more or less difficult. But there has been ongoing bullying, dishonesty and verbal abuse. Other approaches ... positive reinforcement, have failed. The pattern remains the same from certain posters and is just has to stop. In the end it becomes an evaluation of "do the benefits outweigh the cost?" and the answers is no.

Whatchamacallit · Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:35 am

Another Viewpoint: Replies to Tree's Comments

From Tree's post: This is a pattern David which has reared its' head before.

REPLY: Your comment is in itself a pattern of responding to any form of 'correction' or question of your behavior. INDEED ' this IS a pattern which has reared its head before ' yours! Moderators have had to edit and-or delete your posts upon occasion & consistently, because of your sarcasm, flames, citing personal information about people such as their names, along with personal attacks, to name some instances. It is the poster's responsibility to keep their comments respectful, not the moderators job to have to continue to babysit the same person's post, repeatedly over time.

From Tree's post: I consulted several experts regarding this issue with exiting members
and with those people who exit who do not get professional help.

REPLY: Tree, you do not know who has or has not gotten professional help. You insisted, as though it were fact that at least one of the moderators, whom you strongly denied even knowing; as 'needing professional help'. By your own admission, you've recently twice denied even knowing that moderator. The fact is, Tree, you haven't a clue what you are talking about; you simply needed to go into attack mode.

Curiously, at the end of this post, you voice your opinion that 'the moderators sit on a throne and aren't the end all, be all judge of ex-cult members'. Yet, because you cite phantom 'experts', one might say that you are way out of line with the above comments. It seems that any expert professional would refrain from commenting about other people when they do not know them, their history, or where they are at in their present situation. As a matter of fact, to do so would be quite unprofessional. We would be open to speaking for ourselves with the '30 year expert' that you are referring to. It would be wise for them to draw direct conclusions about others, instead of listening to tainted hearsay from you and your limited perceptions. No expert professional worth their salt would draw conclusions based on hearsay; biased input from one person. In light of all of that, YOU are not an expert; you're an amateur. To think that you even need to talk to "experts" and "convince" them that based on your perception, you are "right" speaks only of one thing; YOUR emotional need to be "right" . Hmmmmmm. It was already stated that the issue(s) in question, were being worked out toward understanding, between the parties INVOLVED. That would not be you.

From Tree's post: As it happened before,
and as I said before,
I do not have to play in your sand box.
I have only stayed for brief times when I feel my posts have helped others.
I don't live and die by EMF.

REPLY: Tree, when the volume of posts is compared to the length of stay on EMF, you are the number one poster for frequency relative to time on EMF. That fact does not support your claim that you have only stayed for brief times. 'I don't live and die by EMF', is an example of your sarcasm. Nobody ever said anyone poster on EMF should 'live and die by EMF'. Quite the contrary; it has been addressed a number of times that people will come and go for however short or long a period is they find they need/want to. When they leave, they don't receive any marketing campaign to return. They are warmly thought of, with the assumption that they have found their peace and have moved on to green pastures.

'I don't have to play in your sandbox', sounds like JZR speak, if not a tantruming child. You're right; NOBODY has to play in the EMF forum. And no moderators have to tolerate poster's attacks, either. Fortunately, for most posters, that's not an issue.

From Tree's post: I have not been insulting or degrading or flaming.
I have a moderator who feels insulted and insists my posts are "unwanted interjections."
I thought this was a forum.

REPLY: It is your opinion that you have not been insulting, degrading or flaming. There are others, in addition to the moderator you are so focused on attacking, that have privately emailed and complained about your posts, asking for it to STOP. If you think this is just about 'me', you are mistaken. As for the 'plural' reference by you, of me 'insist[ing] my posts', no. The reference was to your initial post, when you meddled into territory that you did not know the details about, nor still do.

EMF is a forum; exactly the point. What does EMF being a forum have to do with it ' You have had enough personal contact with the webmasters in the past, and if you had questions or concerns, you could have privately and politely queried their reasoning. It isn't the first time that someone posts information of which you are not aware, you question their integrity, attempt to demean and sabotage, and attempt to bring attention to you and away from the topic. You were content to derail the topic of a thread, and insert your own uninformed opinions and negativity, instead.

From Tree's post: I even have a 30 year expert in the area who is agreeing with me.

REPLY: Really' Agreeing with what' You don't have any "30 year expert" agreeing with you. YOU have a cryptic comment ! How ironic that is. That alleged "30 year expert" should be confident enough to stand behind their statements. But you are hiding them, or... they don't exist.

From Tree's post: I find it amusing that 2 ex cult members are disagreeing vehemenantly
with an expert in the field.
It just goes to show me that the more I grow, receive help and acknowledge resources,
the more distance grows with people who have not (um....that would be the moderators).

REPLY: Disagreeing with what ' Even if what you stated is true, since when is it written that 'experts' may not be disagreed with. YOU are the one who cannot handle disagreement. Your historical response to even the perception of disagreement with your views, is some form of attack. This is yet another of a long list of examples of you and your degrading, sarcastic, mocking comments. Thank you for making the point so well.

It is our contention that in any field, experts disagree with one another. Professional ones typically do so with respect, tolerance and flexibility. A professional expert would not find it 'amusing' that their view would sometimes be questioned; contrarily, it is a sign of a healthy relationship that doing so would be respected, even if there was disagreement. Perhaps you should educate yourself on the art of debate. Mature people who debate an ISSUE, do not need to resort to emotional outbursts toward others.

You claim you are 'growing', and while it has been apparent that you are not in the 'state' that you were in several years ago, you still have room for far more 'growing'. It's good that you are still receiving help. As for 'distance growing with people who have not (um'.that would be the moderators)', let it be factually stated that you, Tree, do not even know who all of the moderators ARE. You may think you know, but you don't. Further, one of them that you keep referring to here, you are arguing for as having 'not grown''yet'you repeatedly deny knowing this person. What you don't know, is what counseling 'the moderators' have or have not had. Yet, again, you use ignorant and untrue comments to support a fantasy that you hold in your own mind.

Let's keep in mind who has diagnosed mental illness, Tree. By your own admission, posted multiple ties on EMF, it is you who suffer mental illness. That is only one of the reasons that 'the moderators' have tolerated the irrational, emotionally unstable behaviors you have exhibited time and time again. Furthermore, let it be said that 'the moderators' are not mentally ill. For the reader's information, and to silence the rumors and gossip that Tree has espoused, one of the moderators that she likes to bash the best, has voluntarily undergone many psychological tests to help medical students'and'that moderator is nowhere near exhibiting any form of mental illness, nor has ever done so.
Furthermore, since you are feigning 'concern' over the moderator's lack of mental health, then please do explain an apparent contradiction in your words. David has asked you repeatedly, on a fairly recent thread, to share with him, privately or on EMF, the name of the therapist that you claimed as so wonderful. YOU REFUSED TO DO SO and even included a pretty harsh reply, filled with sarcasm. Interesting, inconsistent response.

From Tree's post: I have refrained for 2 years from being so frank,
but you both have bashed me in this thread and others when it is not necessary.
I thought we were talking about NLP this whole time.

REPLY: You are claiming that you have refrained, for 2 years, from being frank ' Untrue. Plenty of your posts have had to be withdrawn, or edited, or otherwise addressed, due to repeated inflammatory comments; you were quite frank. You were not bashed in this thread, but you were, specifically, disagreed with'and you have no problem slinging arrows, but when someone disagrees with you, another side of you shines through. You don't take criticism well, and you don't apologize for wrongdoing, either.

As for bashing 'others', nobody was bashed. What set YOU off, which was none of your business because you did not then, and you STILL do not know what you are talking about, since the issue has not been discussed or posted about (yet)'was the reference to something that was heard, connected to a woman at ICSA. Based on your latter post, you seem to believe that you have it all figured out. You don't. As was posted, when the issue is further understood and resolved, it will be shared with EMF readers. UNLIKE what you did, which was to reference a phantom '30 year cult expert''without explanation. THAT is okay, but for Whatcha to reference certain information with the rest forthcoming, is not okay ' YOU are a hypocrite. David is correct; you meddled where you did not belong.

From Tree's post: As YOU have pointed out before about what you perceive as my actions in addressing you,
the same goes the other way. You are not the be all, end all, judge of ex cult members.
You cannot sit up on your EMF throne and say: "See' THIS is what happens when you leave a cult.
You end up like people like ________." As if you are devoid of any misgivings or
likenesses of a ruling party.

REPLY: The moderators have never claimed to be the 'be all, end all, judge of ex cult members'. That sarcastic, flaming remark by you, again, reflects nothing more than YOUR attitude and, yet again, attack on the role of the moderators. Your reaction also shows how you don't handle any level of criticism without attack. Apparently the only thing anyone can post, is whatever agrees with your viewpoint ' Hardly. I know myself and others have posted numerous times that something we are stating is OUR OPINION, and we are extremely sensitive to claiming our own opinions, because we know full well that there are those who have other opinions. Hardly the same thing as the toxic reaction you have commonly given, usually toward the moderators.

However, we are all entitled to our opinions. Further, some of the moderators, who do post, have openly stated that they are glad to be flawed, and human, instead of trying to be perfect, and Gods. YOU are the one who is trying again, to deflect an issue away from yourself, and redirect it onto the ones you want to attack. The ISSUE is YOUR actions. YOU are the one who 'took the first shot', when you started in with your criticisms of a topic and issue that you knew not of and STILL know not of. Then, you didn't let it drop until Joe stepped in. For the record, for those EMF readers/posters who were wondering if the phantom '30 year expert' who believes that all of us who have left cults and not received psychological counseling are mentally ill BECAUSE we didn't get counseling, we have asked Joe. He does NOT believe that. He commented that perhaps 85% of former members of such groups move on with their lives, on their own or with other supports in place. So, BECAUSE TREE FAILED TO IDENTIFY, with no future date cited TO DO SO, who that 'expert' is, we do not want the readers to falsely attribute something to a person who isn't responsible. One might even ask if in fact, there is such a '30 year expert' who 'agrees with Tree''and about exactly what ' I surely would like to know what '30 year expert' would agree with hearsay from one person's viewpoint !' I sure would not want counseling from them, nor would I recommend them.

From Tree's post: Several times in this thread I could have lashed back.
But I chose the higher road.
I have praised EMF for what it is.
I find it odd that when I make some pretty worthy posts,
someone, somewhere on the East Coast takes great offense,
and this lambasting is the result.

REPLY: Several times on that original thread you could have lashed out ' That thread was doing just FINE until you came along with your unwanted interjections. FURTHERMORE, you believe that was due to offense being taken ' No. Not at all. Your interjections, especially due to your lack of understanding what you were even talking about, were just what they were said to be; unwanted. It appears the east coast person who was offended, was YOU.

Praising EMF for 'what it is', isn't the point. First of all, nobody has to praise EMF. But, they do have to post, respectfully. 'Someone' stated early on that you could both 'agree to disagree' and YOU did not leave it alone. Your off-topic attacks continued until Joe suggested that you stop.

From Tree's post: If you want to make it an ultimatum,
go ahead.
It's not going to ruin my life or my day.
and, of course this conversation is not closed.
you have preferred to air the laundry in public.

REPLY: An ultimatum' Thank you for your permission to give you one, but we don't need your permission.

US airing dirty laundry' We disagree. It is your post of Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:02 pm, that starts to air dirty laundry. You made direct reference to a private conversation. The issue was not your issue to begin with, but between other people, and was being addressed by and between those people. That was really not your affair. As was stated, 'unappreciated interjections'.

So why this post now ' Why not leave sleeping dogs lay ' Because what you refer to as 'the moderators', have been put in the position to deal with your toxic posts for years now. Further, you really should know, that 'the moderators' received numerous emails from regular posters/readers complaining about your attitude on the forum. After some of your explosive posts in months gone by, then, too, complaints were received. Tree, YOU, among all posters, have been 'cut more slack' than any other poster, EVER, on EMF. Posters such as Wolfman, Tyger and a few others, who have blatantly overstepped their bounds, disrespecting the guidelines that are there for everyone to have a safe haven for posting, and they have been called on it. Tyger (not Wolfman) was even banned. 'The moderators' have plenty of patience and tolerance, which anyone who has been around long enough to view EMF, knows.

Further, we have received emails from people in YOUR past, who refer to posts you've made and claim that your content is not factual.

So, as David has said already'what we are trying to expose is 'abuse'. And yes, the denial that it has ever happened is the worst of all. Where the moderators have 'failed', is in not dealing with the issue sooner, and more directly. Your high maintenance posts of the past ended up with you leaving the forum for months. We ENCOURAGED you to return, we applauded your recovery progress many times. But, Tree, you do not tolerate even perceived criticism without launching into a neverending volatile attack on character, intent and integrity. Others have had enough discomfort in reading that crap from you, and frankly, we're overextended even desiring to coddle you and tiptoe around it anymore. Your outbursts need to be self controlled and restrained, period. Our patience, and our encouragement and support has been worn thin by the ongoing and underlying flames. If history persists, you will now launch a major tirade. We take posting THIS response very seriously and considered, yet again, dropping the ball. Moving forward. But regardless of your opinion, we are considering others' over you for a change, and this post will stand.

As it is stated, and you have repeatedly on both old and the new forums, disregarded: 'This is a moderated forum. Post using maturity and respect toward others, in particular when you don't agree. We're all entitled to our viewpoints, and posting our viewpoints. However, be sure you disagree with issues, instead of attacking people.'

So, THIS post is being posted so that it is in the open, not backroom gossip about what did or didn't occur, and why. It was a long time in coming and we're saddened that our hope of things taking a more long term, positive direction are clearly not what has unfolded. Thank you for your admission that you've been 'holding back' for two years. It confirms and explains the intermittent leaking of hostility toward 'the moderators' that has been exemplified in your posts of that nature, finally deteriorating to you claiming that you and your "30 year expert" can so clearly see the pattern of your evolved self in your growth, seeing those of us who are mentally ill because we never got therapy. WRONG, Tree. But thank you for showing your hand to every reader of EMF and given them a taste of what we've dealt with from you for several years. The irony of which lies in your jabs at the particular moderator that you repeatedly claim 'not knowing'. There's an awful lot of importance and intensity attached to replies to a person you claim you don't know. Perhaps what the moderators are "guilty" of, is finding the raw nerve in yourself that you just don't want to look at. That is for you to decide. But as for us, we've decided; we've had enough. There are people on EMF who remain stealth because you post on here. There are others who won't post on here, because you post on here. What do they know ' The moderators were warned a number of times, but they refused to give up on an ex-student. Yet, what has been learned is, it's no excuse for, as David has already said, abuse and what's worse; the denial that it even happened.

This is not posted or said in anger, but with deep disappointment that the outcome wasn't better than was hoped for. Given almost three years, and watching the situation deteriorate to character assassinations about someone's state of mind, is unacceptable. And the denial of it, more so.

Whatchamacallit · Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:55 am

Another Viewpoint

Tree said, "I am not a (diagnosed) soiciopath (and I have paperwork to back that up)."

REPLY: Did you say that you were a sociopath' Don't recall that post. You did say that you've been diagnosed with mental illness; that's posted on EMF more than once by you. Due to that fact, you have been given more compassion and cut more slack than any other poster ever on EMF, in repeated attempts to support your healing. Unfortunately, it was a rollercoaster ride for the moderators and the numerous readers/posters that would privately contact the moderators because they were disturbed by what you posted as well as what they were afraid you would do to them if they posted.

Tree said, Might I also point out, several weeks ago, we had 2 experts in the cult recovery arena disagree with
the moderators on 2 accounts.

REPLY: You made the claim that two experts disagreed with the moderators. You also did not substantiate that claim with names. C.G. and Joe both said that they did not agree with your personal viewpoint that everyone who leaves a cult needs to have therapy. You should be educated about the assorted theories that are in existence about cult trauma. Exit counselors as well as licensed professionals do not agree with one theory, but have disagreement among them as to which theory might be correct, or if in fact any single one, is. Three of the four main theories do n-o-t accept that cult members become brainwashed. If you believe that yourself, then you've chosen to adopt the belief of the theory that agrees with that one view. The facts are that the majority of exit counselors and licensed professionals involved with the field of recovery believe that the majority of those exiting cults do not need therapy and go on to recover as normal, well functioning people in their lives.

Your 'experts' are only as 'expert' as the theory that they uphold, religiously. That is there choice, but it is not a validation of your OPINION. Nor does it invalidate the moderator's viewpoint.

Tree said, I did point out then,
that this was the case and almost amusing in nature
as we have 2 moderators here who highly disagree with the venue or need of counseling,

REPLY: As was just stated, instead of being so full of yourself being amused (and you did not say 'almost' amused, you said AMUSED), then you would take the time to educate yourself. The facts were just stated above. There is no need to be amused; be educated. The facts are that most counselors agree that most people do not need counseling. Carol and Joe have both told the moderators that they AGREE with that position, also. Nothing saying that some form of therapy can't help. However, there is also data that supports the development of PTSD in people who DO GET exit counseling. Perhaps you should do some homework before you are quite so 'amused' and feeling so qualified to make a blanket statement stating that everyone on EMF who has left RSE needs counseling. They don't. Statistics show that about 15% of them do. The remaining 85% go on to heal from the experience, perhaps the wiser for it, healthy and without a need for therapy.

Tree said, "as neither of them have sought that out for themselves,"

REPLY: For one thing, you have denied several times even knowing one of the moderators, so it's a bold faced lie that you would claim to know whether or not that person has received any counseling. The truth is, you don't know. Because you assume that the other moderator hasn't had counseling, either, is only a reflection showing what you may or may not know as fact versus assumption.

Tree said, "other than to consult joe sz for the occasional thread here on EMF and FACT.NET
not to mention the fact that the experts were agreeing with my point."

REPLY: Your citation of 'experts' is meaningless; it's unsubstantiated. It holds about as much weight as your claim to know whether or not people you don't know have had counseling. One might expect that a professional would stand behind their viewpoint; yet yours are phantoms.

Tree said, "But, uh...David sidestepped that quite nicely.

You know David And ________,
I have not been attacking either of you this entire time here.
I had an opinion on a recent post about withholding a very small amount of information
which resulted in this entire disagreement.
So, instead of being gracious, you continued on your bashing of me."

REPLY: Gracious ' Gracious would have been you asking what was so concerning, and knowing that it had to be quite upsetting as an issue, for it to have been commented on. Gracious would have been offering support by saying that you hoped that the matter would be quickly understood and resolved. Hardly what you had to say. Perhaps, if you had nothing supportive to say about a genuine concern someone had'.shall we say a heartfelt concern, then perhaps, you could have shown more compassion while you were so 'amused'. Granted, however, that you have posted far more contentious posts in the past, though; that is a fact.

Tree said, "1) It is only one person against two.
And that, in and of itself, is not fair."

REPLY: 2 against 3, really. It's two moderators against three; you and your two phantom cult experts, it seems. You have your cult experts validating how right you are and how messed up and wrong the moderators are, along with every person on EMF who has not had the therapy they and you believe that they must have. Wonder what those cult experts would think of you speaking on their behalf ' As for what constitutes "fair", we have given 2-3 years of our patience and support to you, to say the least. What we've received for our effort can be cited by the quote, "No good deed goes unpunished."

Tree said, "2) This is your website.
as I have said before, it is yours and I don't have to play here.
I have only posted when I think it helps people.
And now this topic has vastly digressed from helping anybody.
That is why I have posted minimally in the last 2 weeks."

REPLY: The moderators have had plenty of positive things to say toward you and about your posts over time. Lots of support. Lots of praise for the seeming progress that you made from what you went through when you left RSE and found EMF, and starting to post. Nobody is saying you are bad or wrong. What is happening is, you need to know, that there are number of people who are affronted by the negative tone of some of your posts, to the point of withholding their identity to others and/or refusing to post on EMF because of what they know about you, which stops them, so they can avoid even the possibility of a bad experience. You have directed much of your hostility, sarcasm (or whatever exact adjective you wish you insert that is similar to that), toward the moderators, to say the least. The fact is that the tone of a number of your posts have elicited phone calls and emails to the moderators, because they feel uncomfortable with your posts. Many people, for a long time, have "cut you some slack", BECAUSE they hoped it would get better. But, "it" isn't something that's going to go away any time soon and that is clear.

The moderators know that EMF will not be all things to all people. No message board is. It is nevertheless a fact that many people have been helped. Especially when the nature of what EMF does, attracts people when they are in a vulnerable place; their experiencing the realization of being conned, which affects each of them uniquely. Some handle it far better and readjust more easily than others. We've seen quite a diversity. There are people who don't post on EMF but who are in contact with the moderators. Because someone is not posting, does not mean there is any ill will. There are also those who used to post who no longer do, because they did some very nasty manipulating and it caught up with them. We can't buy our way to heaven and we can't buy our way to coercing others to bend them to our personal will. Yes, this is the moderator's website, just as any other website on the internet has its originators. Joe has his own website, RSE has its own website, etc. Each of them have their own vision and purpose for being, and they are certainly entitled to that. The purpose of EMF is clearly stated. However, when a minority of people have posted over the years, we have had to deal with those who believe they are either exempt from respecting the posted guidelines, or they just don't care to respect them. Neither is acceptable, though much slack has been given to those whom we could have rightly said, 'Enough' far earlier on.

Certainly heartfelt posts are welcome. That is not a question. What is being called into question is the ongoing, periodic episodes of sarcasm, which you in particular have directed at the moderators, many times. Most recently, calling into question their mental health because you believe that they have never gotten therapy and as such, can't be as far along in their growth as you are since you've gotten help. Perhaps the fact is as simple as you needed the help and are getting it, and they didn't need it, if they didn't get it. The majority of recovery 'experts' would agree with that, and that is documented. Of course, you are free to believe what you need to believe, errant as it is.

Tree said, "As I said,
I wish you all the good tidings, and wishes, help and knowledge with your
heartfelt mission here with EMF.
It is a godsend in the internet community.
May people get out of RSE alive
and intact and find their way to more meaningful life
other than devoting themselves to "becoming god"
or monitoring a forum as a daily regimen.
Heartfelt posts do not need monitoring."

REPLY: Thank you. Herein lies an example of your sugar coated sarcasm. Yet again, is the leaking hostility with your comment that one should find a more meaningful life other than'monitoring a forum daily. Message Board moderators around the world would cast a sideways glance at that rock toss. People around the world find value in giving their time to many fields of volunteerism. Some of them happen to be on message forums. The EMF moderators would speak for themselves and say that they have very meaningful lives, which happens to include volunteering to moderate EMF. No, no moderating of heartfelt posts is needed; just the ones who include the flaming arrows.

I have posted many times that EMF is a small part of my life. I may also like to spend some of my time doing cross stitch, or knitting. I choose my EMF time; it does not choose me. As long as their is that balance in my life, it's worth my time. There are many people involved in the ex-cult support field in some capacity or another; some as total volunteers; some partial, some only for pay. That's the nature of volunteer work; passion, dedication and a belief in donating one's time to a worthy cause. But there has been a powerful lesson learned in the last few years; some things are not worth one's time, especially as a volunteer and that is being mistreated. We have learned that lesson well and it won't be repeated.

I wish every person who has ever left RSE or ever will, to find fulfillment in their lives and to be whole in their heart; no matter who that person is. But it excuses inappropriateness, for nobody.

sara · Unread post by **sara** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:29 pm

Dear EMF

What the moderators and others have referred to as flaming, sarcasm or attacks in Tree's posts doesn't seem that bad to me. Yes, I can imagine that moderators and others could have received some angry, attacking posts in the past; Tree has explained that to me and I understand the explanation - which is not an excuse. I would not be upset by anything that I've read of Tree's. I can hear exasperation, frustration and a way of expressing herself that might make people not want to post. It doesn't have that effect on me. Tree's posts were the main reason why I kept coming back to EMF, and her replies to me the most empathic that I received. They seem to me to come from the heart, along with whatever other mixed feelings and motivations might be behind them - don't most people have those? I think I can hear other things that might or might not be conscious, and which I recognise in myself as well. I also hear generosity, comments that are unsubstantiated, some that are unnecessary. I called Tree on that comment of hers about Whatchamacallit's holding back information, which did derail the thread, although it need not have done if it had been allowed to pass. I also noticed what Tree had noticed; that on a board dedicated to openness, information was being withheld; although I would have used the word "ironic" rather than "amusing". I can also see that although in an ideal world, everything could be known, the fact is that it can not; that confidentiality is necessary; Tree's comment did not seem 'thought through" and I found it provovative. I told Tree that I thought it was unnecessary; she heard me and also posted on this forum that she had done so.

I don't know if any of this is going to be heard or how it will be received. I've appreciated both Tree and Whatcha's generosity in the sheer amount of time and thought that they've put into posting and responding. Of course no story is fully shared, but I have valued every post for what it is, whether heartfelt, held-back, accurate, inaccurate, generous, imperfect, patient, impatient... I have never found any of Tree's posts to be harsh, despite Joe's comment; I have found many of the replies to her to be so, eg. AD's. Yes, of course there is "playground stuff" at times. I would be sorry if that and more could not be held, encompassed, understood. I can also see that EMF is not the place where that can be done very easily. I don't know how you are doing what you are doing, moderators, without therapy training or the depth of personal support that personal therapy ( which is a requirement of training) would give you. Of course you don't have to be a therapist to hold and handle strong emotions and attacks which can become very personal, but it is not easy to do. I hear you when you say that you have had complaints about Tree's posts. I've also heard that others have been upset by some of the replies to her. I can hear you trying to be considered in your replies; Tree is less careful in her tone. But I also hear you being very harsh, no doubt understandably. W; you come across to me as reasonable, given your viewpoint, but very hard indeed; some of David's words are simply judgemental - eg. "It would have been far more "convenient" for the EMF moderators to just ban you and your kind, end of story" - "your kind"?? You are making a judgement; and I know from all our phone conversations that you are convinced that you are right; I am not. I might be wrong; if so, so it is. But I don't see what you see yet. The title of this thread is hardly inviting ; you have named what is happening as "abuse", which is your opinion. It is not mine. If I am wrong, I hope I will find out.

You could take issue with the concrete details of more or less everything in Tree's 27. 3. 09 post. But I agree with one essential point that isn't being heard or taken on board; which is that there is a world of difference between people who've had therapy (and I mean a substantial therapy, psychodynamic not just cognitive, of at least a year, and probably several years) and those who have not. Therapy is not just for those who have a mental illness! Of course what you see as sarcasm speaks for itself, as do unsubstantiated comments or factual inaccuracies. Psychotherapy is a process, and those receiving it may still be expressing themselves in unconsidered ways, still not seeing blind spots of their own. They may appear to be struggling more than those who are not in any kind of deep therapy (and there is a world of difference also between counseling and psychotherapy), because once they are truly engaged in it, they open up places in themselves that would otherwise be easier to ignore, hold onto or control. Not everyone has the courage to face themselves at that deep level. This is not an excuse for inappropriate behaviour. But I don't think that you can have any idea of the power of therapy; how it moves, touches and changes you - and you the other person - until you have experienced it for yourself. Of course not everyone needs therapy. But I can see when people would benefit from the support and insight gained from therapy - and when people are not seeing things in themselves, just as others can see in me what I don't see.

I don't see any comparison between Tree's posts and the threatening communications from Tyger and Wolfman that you've recently posted here. I hope that EMF can continue to encompass her, for as long as she wants to continue posting here. It would be very sad if it could not - and the responsibility for that is shared, of course.

Sara

Another Dimension60 · Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:02 pm

Sara ? It may be relevant for you to know that the behaviors exhibited here on emf by Tree are not new ? and, according to previous posts, have gone on for years and years ? certainly throughout Tree?s years with jz/ramtha, certainly since ?leaving?, and probably, in my opinion, prior to any involvement with ramtha. That is, Tree?s posting behaviors on emf are not simply symptomatic of someone who has had a traumatic cult experience and is recovering. The posts reflect a long term personality pattern of behavior.
I wonder too if you read watcha's posts - the webmasters have been extremely kind and patient and allowing and supportive and diplomatic and not returned sarcasm for sarcasm/flame for flame/curse for curse from Tree.
I don't know what is "hard" about my posts re Tree - I gave examples from her posts. I found the ones specific to me insulting with an overt attempt to discredit and demean me. Assumptions were made, accusations and judgments. Simultaneously, and brilliantly, the comments were similar to the question: "have you stopped beating your wife" == there's no way to answer such without seeming defensive or tripping over one's own tongue. If you find her comments pleasant and welcoming, supportive and helpful, insightful, cooperative etc, such is your perception. I don't.

Another Dimension60 · Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:22 pm

Although this thread on abuse is for the most part singling out Tree?s behavior on emf, and although I think it essential that what I consider unnecessarily abusive behavior needs to be put to a stop; there is, to me, a far more important and significant issue here. As stated with my posts on behavior patterns, it has been helpful for me to recognize that there is a ?set? of characteristics and behavior patterns in people who have used me. Tree?s behavior has illuminated, exemplified, and provided insight about, for me, JZ?s behavior ? as herself and Ramtha, as well as other people in my life, past and present. Beyond even the specific of JZ, there is value, to me, in being able to recognize this identifiable pattern of characteristics and behaviors ? so that I don?t get suckered again, - or at least, fewer times. I share what I?ve learned, not to be hard or cruel but to help others.

Which of these characteristics and behaviors does JZ not exhibit? Which does Tree not exhibit.?
Remember ? is JZ?s/Ramtha?s charming, astute information that gets people hooked ? how helpful Ramtha is? how knowledgeable? how insightful?
- charming, likeable, loveable, charismatic ? you?re somehow immediately drawn to that person
- Information ? they have knowledge you don?t ? wow you with (their) knowledge- interesting and just beyond our usual knowledge base
- Suffering and sacrificing ? we?re constantly told about their suffering ? somehow implying that their suffering is worse than ours, that although our suffering is our fault we somehow are responsible for their suffering and sacrificing.
- good story tellers ? poetic prose revelations
-can spout profound philosophical, theological, psychological ?truths? ? living them is another story
- present selves as having a good sense of humor ? but you?re somehow not included in the laughter, almost as if the joke was on you ? humor usually based on mockery of someone else
- highly skilled, exceptional intelligence, talented, special ? which they immediately and repeatedly let you know about - always making you feel slightly ?less than? ? not as skilled, not as knowledgeable, not as insightful, not as humorous, not as?
- utter self-centeredness - manipulating every situation to be about them - even in appearing to reach out to someone, it?s about them
- self-righteous proclamations as if they were expert in whatever area they decide to proclaim about
-sudden changes of personality ? nice lovey dovey to threatening
- Intermittent bashing ? you never know when the person will turn on you, accuse you, judge you, blame you, curse you, criticize you, demean you, or ?attempt to sabotage you.
- accusing judging condemning mocking criticizing of others ? always a ?we/they?
- always will at least demean or mock, if not attack anyone who appears ?more? anything then them?
- no criticism of them, however mild, is allowed - always always always make an/other feel wrong, less than, somehow ignorant, emotionally immature ? you?ve got the problem, not them
- always setting people around them against each other
- demand to be seen as superior ? in knowledge, in suffering, in importance, in ability, in everything; ---
-ultimately inaccessible ? appearance of intimacy, but no true ?connection?/intimacy/closeness/we-ness;
- responses to situations are predictable
- deaf and blind- unawareness of how hurtful their behavior is to others; unable to hear or see their behavior - denial denial denial ? often claim not remembering - Never an apology, never taking responsibility for their actions.

Another Dimension60 · Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:29 pm

In the early days of emf someone posted re the ?cycle of abuse? via ramtha. There is certainly the more recent overt verbal and physical abuse directed at specific individuals and the group at large. The wine ceremonies ? the encouragement/command to drink, particularly for those who?s sobriety was hard won ? is abusive. The food and sleep deprivation is borderline ? certainly used in a manipulative way but not necessarily in and of itself abusive. The more sinister, or, perhaps as David would say, stealth abuse is not so easily observable ? the consistent pattern, from the early days of ramtha, of building people up, presenting himself as the answer for the next step of evolvement, slowly increasingly consistently battering folks ? with accusations of not enough ? not enough passion, not enough commitment, not enough practice, not enough____.. And then the cycle begins again ? you?re special, I?m your leader, bash bash bash?. In classic situations the abuser will often, in their remorseful phase, blame their behavior on previous abuse in their own lives ? and promise not to do it again? until they do. Tree?s behavior, as JZ/Ramtha?s exhibits this same stealth cycle ? she woos people in with how wonderful their posts, builds herself up as one who ?knows? more than anyone else about cults and recovery, after all she was on jz?s staff (as if that somehow means a staff person is more enlightened or knowledgeable or aware or special in some way), uses her emf star status as privilege (after all, she was the star victim of rse and in sharing her terrible story, of emf) ? to ridicule and demean Ramsters, and Yelm, and anyone else she chooses. Her privilege escalates to attempts to undermine the credibility and integrity of the webmasters ? a play for who is more all wise and knowing ? the webmasters or um her.
There is a definite identifiable pattern in jz?s behavior, in tree?s behavior, in the behavior of certain self-centered people. I can only warn and invite people to look and see for yourselves.
I was going to give up attempting to articulate what to me has become obvious ? until I read Grandfather?s posts ? he opened my heart which inspired me to not give up ? perhaps someone can be helped, one less person sucked in and ultimately abused by someone such as jz or tree or someone else in their world.

Robair · Unread post by **Robair** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:52 pm

Hello everyone

Since Tree is the center of attention here,I would like to ask if anyone here knew her prior to this site,meaning during the time she was in the school,her Behavior,her relationship, all that stuff or would be unfair to bring that up,and judge her only by what she has posted here.
My Two cents
Oldone

When I asked this question that what I was hoping to hear from someone who knew her back then, since AD60 has opened that door
I think it would be Very helpful to known if she (Tree) had similar Behavior in her past.

Oldone

Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:08 pm

Thank you everyone for posting....

Hello Sara,
And thank you for posting your very unique viewpoint.
Hey..nice photo, I like the personal touch.
chuckle...
Here is my tuppence worth for now?
I have enjoyed our conversations by phone, you have been very helpful to me personally , thank you.
As you know..I respectfully disagree with several of your points.
Since you have been talking with Tree directly... are you the ?Expert? Tree that has been referring too?
Its interesting to note that Tree chose not contacted me or the moderators over some very contentious and smearing accusations she made on EMF, yet, she phoned me just a month ago regarding something that was on her mind, so why not regarding those horrible accusations ...?

Tree posted..
I would like you all to know,
there are several "behind the scenes" people who financially
contributed to the start of EMF who no longer post or visit here
for this very reason I just mentioned.
The very thing David is accusing me of is the thing he is doing himself.

It is public now..so I will fully respond as such, in a later post.
As you have been talking with Tree, perhaps you can help her to understand the importance of answering my simple questions to
her, I was not asking for names, only clarification about what she was referring to.

What the moderators and others have referred to as flaming, sarcasm or attacks in Tree's posts doesn't seem that bad to me.

I know I am starting to sound like a stuck record here but...
This.... ?may not be that bad? becomes very bad?. When a poster simply just does not stop, and then goes to attack the moderators for doing their job, laced with sarcasm and RSE trigger words. On top of this, Tree does not taken responsibility for her behavior and will defect responsibly else ware at all cost.
That Tree has not been banned already is only because she has helped other posters ?such as yourself? on EMF. But the damage and negative fallout that Tree has inflicted on EMF far exceeds her positive contributions.
But like a selfish and naughty child that must always get the attention and their own way.!, the issues are derailed and the topic becomes ?all about Tree?, and here we are again. But this thread is about ?Abuse on EMF?
And in this ?vain??Yes? it mostly is ?all about Tree? ( Read NPD) and her abusive behavior on EMF.

You have named what is happening as "abuse", which is your opinion. It is not mine. If I am wrong, I hope I will find out.

Some of David's words are simply judgemental - e.g.. "It would have been far more "convenient" for the EMF moderators to just ban you and your kind, end of story" - "your kind"?? You are making a judgement;

Yes... I am totally making a judgment call here, and I stand by it 100%

I don't see any comparison between Tree's posts and the threatening communications from Tyger and Wolfman that you've recently posted here.

I did qualify this by the title of this thread ?Abuse on EMF?, this does include all types of abuse ,
some obvious and some ?stealth?, it is latter that inflicts the most harm.
Just like the clever school bully who knows how to bully without the teacher noticing..!
I have yet to fully responded Tree?s posts and accusations,
particularly when she resorted to smearing the very integrity of the moderators and EMF.
This has not gone unnoticed.
Tree is the fireman attacking the fire engine... while the house burns..make no mistake about that.
Peoples lives are being burnt and destroyed at RSE as we speak...
Meantime the moderators have to turn their attention to protect the EMF fire engine.
So much is lost from this sort of destructive behavior from "the likes of Tree"
What is also lost is a followup LARSE meeting in Yelm...........
We are volunteers and can only do so much.....
And if I sound angry at Tree, this is because I am angry at Tree.

I will address these issue ASAP.

David.

sara · Unread post by **sara** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:10 pm

Dear AD

I know that Tree's behaviour is not new - and I agree with you that there is a wider issue here than one person's behaviour; thank you for that reminder to everyone. I've also read all Whatcha's posts - I wrote how much I appreciated them - and also wrote in the same post that I could hear the moderators being very considered in their replies to Tree. I also used the word "patient" in that post to describe W's posts, although less clearly. I tried also to show that I recognised how much there was in Tree's posts for which she could legitimately be called to account, without getting into discussing the character and motivation of someone whom I don't know at all, apart from written correspondence. Re-read my post and you will see that I've hardly been unreservedly positive about them! I wanted to make the point that not everyone has been upset by her and not everyone sees her as negatively as some do - you and I have different perceptions and experiences and I completely respect yours - I might be wrong! I also wanted to make the point that everyone's perceptions are subjective and unconsciously influenced.

No, David, I haven't been talking with Tree, although I would be glad to. Do you really think that I wouldn't have told you? I let you know the very first time I PM'd her. As a therapist, I absolutely understand confidentiality, but am not into unnecessary secrets.

I'm not a 30 year expert! although I am a UKCP-registered psychotherapist with 17 years in the field, and have worked for a long time with "spiritual abuse" and people who have come out of destructive groups.

I can understand you wanting substantiation, and don't know whether the "30-year expert" is the same person as the "wonderful therapist" whose name you wanted to know. Please note that it's quite usual and to be expected for people not to want to disclose the name of their therapist; they tend to want to keep that person for themselves; nor would any reputable therapist work or even - usually - talk with anyone known to a client of theirs. Of course, unsubstantiated claims can only be given limited attention.

By inviting discussion of "abuse in EMF", you have invited group process, and that is not easily done by written word, nor in this kind of forum - in fact, I'm not sure that it can really be done at all. At least experiences and perceptions can be shared and discussed, recognising the limtations of all of our perceptions and understanding, and I welcome AD's wise reminder that there is a general issue here - I am not at all comfortable with a focus on one individual, although I can see that such a discussion may illuminate wider principles. Our perceptions and assessments of another person - if we make them - maybe be accurate in some ways, or may be quite off. Let's stay with trying to understand OUR experience and sharing our own understanding. Thank you for your honest replies to me.

Sara

sara · Unread post by **sara** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:36 pm

Ok, what else do I hear from the moderators - to be specific, from W's last e-mails to me; David, you're in a different place right now and are not afraid to admit that you are angry. In W's comments on this matter, I hear sincerity, patience, goodness of heart, lack of anger and the real desire to be as supportive and careful towards Tree as possible in the past - and I think it is in the present too, as you are holding back from posting as much as you could. I can see a lot of things in the way Tree operates, none of which I'm going to name in a public forum. None of it upsets me nor would it ever. Maybe it's easier for me to see through it as I work with these patterns every day and none of it makes the slightest difference to the way I feel about the people with whom I work. Maybe it's unrealistic to wish that an online support/information forum could be a little more holding, more detached and therapeutic. The moderators have, after all, as responsibility towards everyone, not just one person. However, isn't the way we treat the most vulnerable as important as the way in which we treat everyone? Maybe it's inappropriate in this setting to say, let's look at ourselves when we get upset or offended, and understand why - the other person is being the way they are at that moment; let them! I guess that would maybe be too much for newcomers to this board, who are most likely very vulnerable themselves, to hear. It isn't easy to be attacked and at times you do need to take action to protect yourself or others, but can people be called on what they do, with less harshness, less judgement, recognising that even when we accurately see something, we don't always see the whole story, and still less do we often see ourselves?

Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:32 am

Thanks you sara,

although I can see that such a discussion may illuminate wider principles.

Bingo...This is the main purpose of this thread.

Tree's posts were the main reason why I kept coming back to EMF, and her replies to me the most empathic that I received.

It is also true that former RSE insiders that know Tree do not post on EMF "because" Tree is prolifically posting here..

I told Tree that I thought it was unnecessary; she heard me and also posted on this forum that she had done so.

Yes..., there was a small acknowledgment from Tree,, but what real effect did you have on her behavior....
when more attacks were forthcoming, You were played...! "in my opinion".
what I have yet to understand is..
"As with JZ Knight".. is her abusive behavior conscious or unconscious?
either way, it has no place on EMF.

let's look at ourselves when we get upset or offended

I remember doing that to an aggressive dog at one time..I thought I was being very "masterful"..

It came up behind me and bit me on the backside.

David.

sara · Unread post by **sara** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:41 am

Hi David

Yes, I might well have been "played". I don't mind.

"Unconscious", I imagine.

Sara

sara · Unread post by **sara** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:50 am

Forgot to say - I don't know about JZ Knight. Part-unconscious, I'm sure.

Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:51 am

One thing I will say for Tree..
I like her dog..and she is a great poker player..
more later gator..

David.

ex · Unread post by ex » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:54 pm

David, thank you for running this ship. Yes you have all rights to say to anyone stop here. I also get that there is a big pool of possible conflicts. Like the answer asked at larse: do you wanna bring jz down? The official answer was of course not. jz needs actualy help. My answer would be of course she is a fraud and needs to get brought down. But I am sane enough or not dedicated enough to put my whole life and fortune to a cause like this. After all, I am selfish enough to have my own happy life and she took enough of my fortune so I dont wanna give her more. But I clearly wait and hope that the information which hits the international press to expose her shows up here on emf. I also see that emf should be the place of fair warning to the public and not a place were you need to pull valuable info out of a pool of conflicts and insanity. But yes I have to accept other people's choice of getting brainwashed and getting theire pockets emptied. I judge them harshly and refuse being polite about it.

Tree, I hope you are doing well. I got a little bit concerned about some of your posts too [they got very harsh on some issues.] I have to admit that I didn't read the initial inputs very thouroughly because they were very long. I am sure thoroughly researched. But neverless there is for sure a reason in me and you that we choose being in a cult. Is this flaw existing at birth? before we enter the cult? or get it developed during the time we are in? Does it realy matter if we don't leave it behind? And yes, leaving a cult in which we believed in takes time -- but not the whole world is a place of war, even if it looks like it sometime. I look forward to reading your posts again. Especially ones where you express welcome and enouragement to newcomers, and other posts where you share insight gained from working on the ranch as one of jz's team. You have seen and heard many things first hand that the rest of us could only imagine. Students get the polished, edited version of JZ. Staff hears "the rest of the story."

Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Again thank you everyone for your contribution to this thread,
I have read everyone's post carefully.
I'm sure a few here will breathe a sigh of relief when this thread completes its journey.
Why do I think this thread is so important.' .Please consider this'..
One of the main causes/ reasons that kept us from addressing the RSE red flags while we were "sincere" members , was because of 'The Good' we all recognized within the 'teachings'...! especially the sparkly 'Ramtha' presentations, that seemed so inspiring wonderful and TRUTHFUL...Oh..and Judith has sacrificed so much for us all..:-'

The fact was..I just tuned out and turned away from the abuse and hypocrisy, thinking that a higher cause was being played out with 'a higher authority watching the store'! besides all that... 'Ramtha' called me a 'Master'..that felt very "enlightening".
yet in truth..'he' hadn't a clue what my name was'! It so much easier for Judith just to call everyone 'Master..!
This behavior and denial is no different "in my opinion" to what has been going on here.
I remember excusing the RSE bullies who were parading around as 'special' and "Ramtha's" chosen staff members.
There has been 'abuse on EMF' as there have been the excuses to ignore it, WHY'... because of the 'greater good' of EMF.
But if we turn a blind eye to this, it will destroy EMF. It has already undermined our purpose on EMF more than most realize.
It is time to repair a leaky ship.
One of the worrying issues of Tree's 'abuse' is the overall silence by most to not address this issue....just as in RSE.
Tree's attacks towards the moderators and her follow-up innuendos goes much further than undermining the trust and confidence we have all worked so hard to achieve on EMF,
Her accusations also undermine potential benefactors that may come forward in the future.
On the subject of money and donations'None of the moderators have ever been paid,
EMF is not a business nor is LARSE.
What little donations we have received have been a FRACTION of the monetarily cost to create EMF, there have been countless hours others have freely given to have created EMF, and to make EMF freely available to everyone, and that includes Tree.
I am not playing the sympathy violin here, just presenting the facts.

It is for the very fact that Tree has endeared "trust" and 'legitimacy' on EMF that I feel it is essential we take a deeper look at some disturbing issue at play here, that at first glance it is easy to dismiss as..."blown out of proportion", it is not.
I will say this again'This is not an issue between 'David and Tree' nor 'Us and them'. This is all about behavior, accountability 'or lack thereof' and its consequences, just plain old 'right and wrong'.
Surely we as EMF posters and moderators must hold the same standards of ethics and accountability we expect from JZ Knight/RSE..
Since Tree has not been forthcoming to answer my questions and to explain this post..........

Tree posted..
I would like you all to know,
there are several "behind the scenes" people who financially
contributed to the start of EMF who no longer post or visit here
for this very reason I just mentioned.
The very thing David is accusing me of is the thing he is doing himself.

I finally have a moment to respond with the following....
Tree is referring to a person 'I will call her 'G', she had little to do with the creation of EMF.
To help connect the dots here.... 'G' also knows Carol Giambalvo.
'G' is also member of the ICSA and is in touch with Tree.
Yes..'G' did help financially towards the cost paying our web designer to upgrade EMF for the sum of $500.00.
Here are my email correspondences with 'G' from that time...........

************
12 15 06
Dear David,
The new design cover page at http://www.enlightenmefree.com.
I took a look and think that it is wonderful. The butterfly in flight is beautiful and the muted stars and lightrays crossing each other look really neat. That is a website which says something to the world. Excellent, excellent, excellent.
I hope you won't mind me pointing out that it needs some editing. Welcome to 'Enlighten Me Free website has an ' on one end and not the other.
The body of copy is not centered under the title'''''''edit--------..

'G'

********

12 27 06
Dear David,
I asked you twice if you wanted me to soften the copy and both times you said, "Yes." On 12/16 you sent me an email saying, "I will send the new link ASAP. Never heard from you again before yesterday.
I wasn't able to soften the copy because I don't have it.
My impression of you is that you are very caught up in a rush. I could not understand why you were so insistent on launching Dec 22 when it clearly was not going to be ready and the timing could not have been worse. At one point you sent an email saying, "We'll launch when all of the creases have been ironed out," and then before I took another breath it was back to Dec 22 again. Then Jan 1 with no talk of a link...
....................Edit''''''''''
I do not know why you are in such a rush but it is obvious that you are. I'm not comfortable being a party to something that is less than a best effort so I will disappear. back from whence I came in order to pursue what is most important to me.
Fare thee well...

'G'

*********

12 28 06
Dear 'G'
If you decide that on reviewing the EMF website on Monday Jan 1st 2007
that you have wasted your money..
I will return your contribution of $500.00 ASAP
"We" all thank you for all your past support and encouragement..
You will be missed.

Wishing you a free heart and mind...

David.

Tel 360 894 5----

********
I would like to add that "G" was not disappointed with the final layout and launch of EMF.

I have a message for "G" and for Tree.....
EMF is not for sale, never was. never will be.
It will not be overrun by bullies either.

If our behavior remains abusive after leaving RSE, or any Cult for that matter...,
Have we really left'.

David.

sara · Unread post by **sara** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:16 am

David, are you aware that you are revealing a real name on this board? and that you are misspelling it? You say that JZR didn't know your name - this is someone you've known personally for a long time, and you don't know how to spell her name?

Sara

sara · Unread post by **sara** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:26 am

"If our behavior remains abusive after leaving RSE, or any Cult for that matter...,
Have we really left?."

I could ask you that same question...

Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:34 am

Dear Sara,

Thank you for your PM.

this is someone you've known personally for a long time, and you don't know how to spell her name?

I have a good friend also with the same name but spelled slightly different, I often get their spelling mixed up.
On top of this my spelling is atrocious, thank goodness for the spellchecker.
And Yes..I made a slip by including Tree's first name, two times during my last post. it was an honest mistake,
I fixed it immediately, thank you for pointing this out, you were not the only one to do so....

You say that JZR didn't know your name -

Sara...What I actually said was....

It so much easier for Judith just to call everyone ?Master..!

This was in context to ?Ramtha? calling everyone ?Master".
Crikey Sara.... Does my post make me abusive in your eyes?
This was a very tiring, time consuming, and difficult post for me to write....
that would NOT have been necessary were it not for Tree's abuse and unfounded accusations.
As for my comments....

"If our behavior remains abusive after leaving RSE, or any Cult for that matter...,
Have we really left?."

absolutely this includes me, did I say otherwise?

I could ask you that same question...

Please go ahead...
I am really perplexed as to what your point is here,
what you are referring to? Do you regard my bad spelling and accidentally posting Tree's first name in my post as abuse ?
Tree's real name is no secret on EMF. There has been no harm done. but of course it should not have been posted.
Please.....
Do you have any comments regarding the substance of my post?
Have you felt abused on EMF?.. or during your time as a"student" at RSE?

Davvidd....!

sara · Unread post by **sara** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:26 am

"Do you regard my bad spelling and accidentally posting Tree's first name in my post as abuse?"

No. Do you want me to quote a private conversation with you to clarify my reference? I won't say more than I did on a public board, unless you ask me to do so!

To answer your questions - "no" - slammed once by the mods, but as I've told you and them, there was nothing wrong with their e-mail, given the background that you explained to me. It came on very strong and was a stunning assumption and misjudgement of me, but I could understand why it was sent, and my feeling about and response to it were entirely my responsibility.

To you second question - "no" - I didn't feel abused in Italy or by my experience of the teaching in general - but RSE is a destructive, abusive organisation, so no doubt I was, along with every other student.

"no doubt I was" - yes, of course I was; spiritually and emotionally if not physically. That's a common pattern, isn't it? minimisation of abuse!

"feelings", not just "feeling about it" - better stop now - too many posts!

*

-moderator comment-
Sara,
Your four postings have been placed into one post.
Thank you for your understanding.

Those pesky Moderators.

Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:20 pm

Do you want me to quote a private conversation with you to clarify my reference? I won't say more than I did on a public board, unless you ask me to do so!

Hi Sara,
Thank you for your PM, I sent you a reply..

Yes,
I think you should quote that reference on EMF,
but please make sure you are keeping our private conversations in context to "abuse on EMF" as much as possible..
You also have the option of starting a new thread if " your reference"... is off topic to this thread.....

David.

View topic - POSTING GUIDELINES:

http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... ic.php?t=3

Unread post by **EMFWebmaster** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:56 pm

It has been a week and a half since the start of this "Abuse on EMF" thread.
People have had time, as well as the opportunity given to them to comment, and some have.

However, there is one fact that was and will always be present on EMF. That is the possibility of the continuation of the same abusive behavior patterns by certain posters, being repeated on EMF, as in the past.
This is the risk of an open and free discussion forum, unfortunately there will always be people that will abuse that freedom and the rights of others.
We have very carefully set in place our rules for posting on EMF to protect integrity for the forum as well as its posters and readers.

Questions have been asked, and answers (from Tree) have not been forthcoming. Instead, there were further barbed remarks, justifications, making unsubstantiated claims about cult experts who agreed with her, and a failure to be responsible or accountable for the posts that have been questioned. Resolution can only come from people who are willing to work toward it together. If someone is going to be "right" and the others are "wrong", then it only ends up with a monologue, not a dialogue working toward conflict resolution. Yet, this is not just about Tree.

Tyger and Wolfman's posts were also used as examples of abusive behavior, especially toward the moderators, along with Tree's.
While each of these people have had their share of constructive posts, that doesn't then give them special bonus points to also include posts that violate the stated purpose of the EMF forum and message board.

Everyone has an obligation to uphold the purpose of this forum, which includes posting RESPECTFULLY toward others; even, and perhaps especially, when you disagree.

Especially since there has been plenty of time to work toward resolution and that hasn't occurred, we want to let the thread stand for a short time. This thread is going to be locked, and Tree has our best wishes, but at this time she is going to be locked from further posting, at least for a time.

We thank everyone for your understanding.

The Moderators.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

EMF POSTING GUIDELINES
Responsibility of the Posters

EMF is discovered by people who are coming from all walks of life, having their own unique story to tell about RSE and, some of whom are very much in need of support. This forum is intended for them to have a safe haven for posting their experiences without being attacked or judged for the content of their posts. This can be done without flames.

Obviously, this is due to the fact that people that should be posting on EMF, who are either ex-members who are not proselytizing for RSE, or have family who is in the RSE, who need support and information.

These people may not be at their emotionally strongest point in their lives. What they need at EMF is support, and information about the dynamics of cults, mind control tactics, and recovery resource materials. Then, they can work toward their recovery and reintegrating into a healthy lifestyle, or helping their loved ones and themselves as affected family and-or friends.

What posters, as well as readers, don?t need are people who refuse to restrain themselves. Such posters apparently think they are entitled to their judgmental, arrogant, condescending, hateful, intolerant, angry attitudes. That comes biting through in posts that flame people, instead of addressing issues.

Posters should expect that since we have all had different experiences, share different viewpoints, and have different personalities, that you will be reading posts that you strongly disagree with. There are no "conditions of belief" for EMF posters. When you read a post that you think is opposite what you believe, perhaps it's best to respect another person's right to see things differently, and ignore the post. If we all feel the need to chime in every time we disagree with a post, we'll eventually have reason to find fault in every person. If you disagree with a viewpoint, and want to refute it, feel free to do so WITHOUT FLAMING THE PERSON and "making them wrong", or trying to "make yourself right". There's much to be learned from other people's perspectives, and who knows - we may even expand our own.

We can be angry at a poster's comments, or RSE for the scam, or JZ, or "Ramtha" etc., but we can't be hypocrits who come on here and post by calling people swears. That only makes us as guilty as "Ramtha" when we criticize how "he" talked to students during the so-called "Truth Teachings" in wine ceremonies. We want a higher standard that that, here.

Posters may or may not agree with these posting guidelines. If they do not, they are at risk for having their posts edited to fit these guidelines, or deleted. Repeatedly ignoring the guidelines puts posters at risk for being temporarily or permanently banned from this forum entirely. If these actions are taken, they may also occur without notice.

Responsibility of the Moderators

To be the arbiters of those who choose not to restrain themselves and need or want to post in a manner that is judgmental, arrogant, condescending, hateful, intolerant and other related flaming attitudes.

Flame posts are going to be deleted. If you have a post deleted, kicking and screaming and name calling toward the moderators isn?t going to work. The rules are posted. If you cannot or will not honor them, go elsewhere. This means YOU.

Experiences of the Moderators
The Good, The Bad and The Fugly

EMF is controversial; that?s a given. Over the past year, we?ve experienced people who have wanted to ?help?, but whose ?help? came their own agenda. In the guise of ?help?, what they were after, was control. EMF IS ?owned? by certain people, with a certain goal, and they have a right to that. Every website founder has a right to uphold their vision for creating it.

The moderators have endured harassment, threats, lies and more lies, attempts at manipulation, attempts at character assassination and similar bully tactics.
Calling us names isn?t going to budge us. It?s only going to alienate us from you.

Sometimes the support that posters need is beyond the scope of what EMF has to offer, because people?s issues are so serious, that they need the positive experience that a professionally trained counselor can give them. EMF is not a replacement for professional therapy. It is a support and information website with tools that can be used for the cult recovery process.

The good part of what we?ve experienced, is those sincere people who wanted to help us with what we needed to uphold the vision we have for EMF. The contacts, many of whom have never posted, who tell us to "Keep up the good work". Not because we need the accolades, but that we're aware that the site is doing what it set out to do.

We've also heard from a lot of people who have given us information to follow up on, but who don't post.

What we have experienced that is appreciated is sincere efforts to help us with what we need, such as when people ask ?What do you need that I could help with??, and they follow through on their word. The good is that we know we?re helping a lot of people. That is healing for others and for ourselves, too.

It?s one way to make lemonade out of lemons.

To contact the moderators of this forum, email: messageboard@enlightenmefree.com

Jay · Unread post by **Jay** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:05 pm

On every other message board I've ever seen on the Internet, what you are talking about is simply termed "flaming". It's part of all Internet message boards. Never heard it called "abuse" before.

Isn't that a little over the top?

Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:27 pm

Jay,

Have you read this thread?
Flaming is one thing, then there is 'verbal abuse" and "cyber-bullying" take it another notch there is "web rage"...and so on...
All are forms of abuse in my opinion, and have no place on EMF whatsoever.

David.

Another Dimension60 · Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:35 pm

Jay - perhaps you haven't read all the relevant posts here regarding this issue. Many of us have little episodes of temper tantrum, using 'incorrect' language, let our anger carry us away - on occasion. Then there is a consistent repetitive pattern of such along with a personality profile that lures people in based often on not quite so accurate information and a complete misrepresentation of the person with a consistent demand for the center of attention no matter the thread topic along with consistent vitrol and attempts to sabotage the integrity and mental health of the moderators and other posters = this is abusive.

The EnlightenMeFree (EMF) Online Debate Forum

Abuse on EMF

Abuse on EMF

At Any Moment The Question Is: What's Happening?

Hello everyone

Wolfman....

?abuse?

Hello

Damned if you do, and Damned if you don't...! and then....

un poco mas

Are we there yet..