Spouses and partners involved with RSE

[Kryptonite]

Thanks to all who have posted. You are very brave and whether you know it or not, helpful.

I have never attended an RSE event. However, my partner has attended many. At first I thought that this program was no big deal. That this was what my partner needed. You know to get away for a few days and "meditate". Recharge. Come back to life revitalized. I was almost caught up in the web of lies myself. My partner would come home and share the ideas presented at the ranch and some of it made sense to me. It was as though a veil was lifted and life began to make sense. That is until failure was blamed on me.

I have been involved in the martial arts for 10 years or so. When we test for our next belt rank, our teacher ensures that we knew all of the material inside and out. Why? Because the quality of test we have reflects directly on our teacher. A master does not blame the student for failure, the teacher blames him/herself. In fact, our teacher was concerned about his students having all details, to include paperwork, ready and turned in on time because he would pay the price from his higher ups if things were not in order. The student was not to blame. Even in training, if a concept is not grasped we are not yelled at or berated. The teacher finds another way to explain or tells us that we need more practice.

When I heard my partner say things like I did not try hard enough or I was not focused enough that was the first of many red flags. Then posters of JZ started to appear around the house and videos were purchased and C&E was almost a daily event. Promises of great wealth and a perfect life were made by my partner, yet nothing really changed. Then I did some surfing and uncovered many disturbing items that you are familiar with. Then the discovery of this site and things started to fall into place.

Since then, I have engaged my partner in several discussions of JZ's ideas. I have shot down many (if not all) of the arguments that have been made. (Thanks to info contained on this board) Yet, my partner cannot seem to realize that this is a sham. I cannot seem to get to that one breakthrough that is needed to shine the light bright enough for my partner to realize the fakery that this program is.

So, I have banned all things related to RSE to a corner of our house. I told my partner that all financial obligations to the school will not come from my income to this family. Money from my partners salary will have to be used to fund these trips. I was sure that was the end of the relationship. I was surprised when these demands were taken with a air of nonchalance. Despite all my efforts and arguing there is even talk of moving to Yelm, which I promptly said NO WAY! It seems to me that even though my arguments make perfect sense... no one is listening!

I am at dead end... I do not know where to take this from here. I feel as though I have done much. Yet I also feel that there is one more step I can take to make my partner see that this is another scam. I just do not know what. Or am I done? Is the responsibility now on my partner to see the light? This is so frustrating!

[Walk in the Park]

Kryptonite-
Keep doing what you are doing.
That is called "setting boundaries."
You have set them for yourself. That is wonderful.
I, too, was very surprsied your partner responded and did not rebel.

Read the posts by littlewiseone and journeythroughramthaland: http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... .php?t=115
their story may insipire you to keep the faith (their journey took many years).

I know it seems hopeless and sometimes frustrating. You can only do so much for the relationship and for yourself.
Your partner truly has to be willing to make some compromises as well.
If they do not, they are compromising to the organization.

Best wishes.

[Whatchamacallit]

Hi Kryptonite,

What I know, is that you will know when the time is right, what direction your relationship is going to take. I mean, the fork in the road.

For myself, my family all went out to Yelm for the teachings, way back in 1990 - 1991, though I watched all of the Ramtha videos from 1986 prior to ever going out there. My family didn't return, largely believing it was a bunch of bologna for the most part. They tolerated my attendance, though it had a negative impact upon them. I lost my brother and a daughter, in that, our relationship was destroyed over the issue of the teachings. My daughter and I are repairing the damage now, but my brother and his family (my only sibling) won't speak to me.

I have moved on from all of that, and at this point, despite the strain on my long term, and only marriage, things are now very good.

I say this because there was a "gray area" of time for us, where things in the various relationships (especially my marriage), could have come apart, or grown stronger. My husband is a very relaxed, easygoing person. While we have had our differences, and sometimes still do, we're very married. (He just needs to realize that the wife is always right ...insert humor...)

If anyone would have said that I would leave RSE, nobody would have believed it and certainly not my husband/family. I was a sincere student, though I always had an internal struggle with the "wrongs" that I witnessed at RSE (in assorted ways). When those "wrongs" escalated into some totally unacceptable, abusive behaviors, I knew it was over because no way would I condone that. No way would I fall into the trap of accepting the consensus groupthink at RSE that "Ramtha knows what is best for me", and go on to dismiss appalling behaviors such as physical assault of adults, IN FRONT OF CHILDREN, ongoing and repeated sexually explicit talk and degrading of adults, IN FRONT OF CHILDREN, drunken wine ceremonies with orgies going on, with children present at such events. Those types of things did not occur until the latter years of the "school".

All of that said, I left RSE, because ... I ... got to a point in my own mind where the teachings were not okay. I don't know that my family could have ever said anything to me, that would have sunk in, prior to the time that I reached the conclusion on my own, that it was o-v-e-r. My view was that my family just didn't understand what I knew.

So, for YOU... my personal opinion is that you need to stand your own ground, as kindly, calmly, and respectfully as you can (take the high road). All the while, planting seeds of potential doubt and awakening, for your partner. Sometimes we have to hit rock bottom in a relationship before we realize that we don't want to lose it. Sometimes, we allow ourselves to lose it, and perhaps regret it later. I don't know which way things will go for you, of course, but you do have control over what happens TO you, by setting your own limits of acceptability, and having the courage to let the chips fall where they may.

I feel for you, and I am sure that others who are reading your post and nodding their heads in understanding, are, too. You're not alone. FAR from it. Many, many, many relationships have been destroyed by their association with RSE. In some instances, "Ramtha" has partnered people together, and has stated (I heard it), that he does not care if the person(s) is/are already married.

Good luck, Kryptonite. You're up against a wall (of the mind) arguing with/for/to someone who is brainwashed with the RSE dogma.

[See&E]

Hi Kryptonite,

Congratulations for your caring enough to stand up, set your boundaries, and attempt to explain and reason with your partner. The challenge is, given the type of mind set that develops over time, it almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy to the faithful follower when they are challenged with "reality". Believing, as they have been taught, that they are both able to, and are 100% responsible for 'creating their own reality', your observation and perception that you are nonchalantly treated or perhaps not listened to, is likely true.

Has there ever been any other person, group or organization that your partner 'fell for' or became an avid member before? If so, and that ended with loss of time, investment, or other fall out, perhaps you might use that as an example?

Probably the best chance you have is continuing to share from love in your heart, on what brought you both together. In other words, something that likely was the most treasured, valued, and beloved part of your lives at one point (before this has happened).

There are some excellent posts, shared experiences on both this board and the original board which might be very helpful. There is experience, research, and even successful results from some on this site, not only with the school, but other organizations where it has disrupted, strained or had severe negative impact on finances, relationships, and whether they are exit counselors, impassioned relatives who have loved ones in these organizations. Keep at it.

There were two people that I knew there that finally began to see the light for themselves, but it took some time to get through. It can make it harder if part of the reason they become ready to move anywhere is to save or protect their loved ones (you & family) from the perceived danger or threat. It can develop into a psychology of survival, mistrust, even paranoia (like the movie Conspiracy Theory). One however, lost their relationship, drained their finances, and the other even lost their position/job for the increasing need to fly there for event after event, some for weeks at a time. It was sad, and they only recently threw out a garage full of spoiled wheat, dried food supplies, which they'd had for years and years.
They'd been waiting for economic collapse, since this time of year, 20 years ago!

With the economy currently in the news (it always is, goes up and down), nature cataclysms (it always is doing something), and other 'signs of the time' it creates a very real fear or panic to those that feel they have been warned, and told to prepare. So they do, or they go about these things as an insurance (just in case). Like the movie, "Blast From the Past" (1999) there is a whole invested potential that the 'chicken little' parable might just be true.

Again, there are gifted, experienced, and caring individuals here that may be able to offer some specific suggestions. All I can share, is to hang in there as long as you can, and keep trying to get through (this is not unlike trying to reason with a teenager, so handle with TLC).

Check out the links, material that have been shared on these boards by david, joe, journey, hal mansfield and others. There are video clips of meetings, and other articles, websites. Hard to know what will be the one thing that would make the difference. Likely, it will be many different attempts and your caring enough to try. Your partner is lucky.

Your reminder and sharing regarding martial arts is much appreciated. A very keen observation.

Wishing you continued strength, desire, caring in helping your loved one regain balance and recapture the cherished relationship which should help.

[ex]

I told my partner that all financial obligations to the school will not come from my income to this family. Money from my partners salary will have to be used to fund these trips. i had the same arrangement.since some of her money helped to pay the bills this arrangement dident work.i paid all bills and her income got spent for her pleasure at rse.aditionally i was a cheap babysitter and a cheap homebase.she will not argue with you.soon she will show you what extraordinary life she manifests are you part of it? [sorry for the bitter cynisem i went through this]also my ex dident throw pearls bevore me swine who obviusly dident get the teachings.all the best watch the money because you easy spend 10000$as a dedicated student.a move to yelm.....i dont wanna start with this.good luck.

[Kryptonite]

Wow! Thank you all for your encouraging words and insight. I am combing this board and site for as much information as i can gather. There are so many resources it is taking much time. Thank you for reminding me to handle this situation with TLC. I get angry at the idea that my partner cannot see RSE for what it really is and that tends to piss me off. I will need to remind myself to take a breath and relax when we are discussing these things. I will keep at it.

Whatchamacallit mentions many abusive behaviors and actions that take place at the school. I have also seen others talk about their own personal traumas (Tree? i believe). Are these things still going on? I have to believe that they are. Major concern! Damn! These people are really good to be able to keep their meat hooks into smart, educated people and still continue to abuse them. I have an uphill battle i guess.

I have made peace with the possibility that my marriage could go south at any time. However, I will not be at peace with myself if I do not try everything in my power to try and make my partner see what is really going on. I will also try to be more patient and remind myself that this may take years.

Thanks again and Keep the peace.
K

[aussiegirl]

Kryptonite

I am in a relationship with a long standing member of RSE. We met a few years ago and he has been a follower of Ramtha for around 20 years. It is very difficult to understand how he can believe this nonsense but reading this forum has helped me enormously in understanding that intelligent well meaning people can be duped by cults. You will find a lot of support here.

Will he ever see that it's all a lie, I don't know. I use the advise from ex-members on this forum to approach my partner with regards to RSE, but we still end up having some huge arguments, I can't always tread as lightly as I would like. The positive is that there are things he has stopped doing since we got together, he no longer does C&E (a daily occurence before we met), he hasn't been to a retreat in the past 3 years (was going to Yelm and Australian retreats regularly before then). Basically he is living more now, involved in this life with me our friends and family, it's manageable because Ramtha rarely comes into our relationship (but hovers occasionally in the background). Maybe this is the only way you can handle it for now, do things with your wife, be sociable, have fun together, if you can make that a better buzz than the one she gets from Ramtha then you might be able to keep the marriage going.

Part of me fears the fallout if my partner ever wakes up to the reality that he has been fooled, 20 years is a long time to believe a lie.

[Whatchamacallit]

Kryptonie and Aussiegirl,

I've heard plenty of stories about (or from) ex-students of RSE, who were like myself, dedicated, sincere students of "the Great Work". Those people have all left the school, after years, having "woken up" to the manipulation and lie of what RSE promotes, and what it actually does (and/or) delivers.

I want to chat here about something that is going to irritate some who disagree - but - it is very important that we all have our voice here. This is a hot topic - but I know ex-students of RSE who to this day, still believe there is a being (whether you want to call "it" Ramtha or Ethel or Fred) that comes through JZ, at least sometimes. Is it the SAME being that comes through ? I cannot say.

However, I know people who have had some very unusual experiences, that as intelligent adults, they cannot explain away easily. Perhaps there is an explanation OTHER THAN that JZ is/was/sometimes channels SOMETHING (good or bad), for these people's unusual experiences.

My point here, is not to debate the topic of whether or not Ramtha (or some other entity or entities) has ever, and/or does currently channel through JZ.

My point is that as people who are CUSTOMERS of a business, we have a moral obligation to give consideration to where we are spending our money, and why we do so, as well as WHAT we are supporting and if it deserves our financial support. Aside from the fact that many people have lost families, health and all or most of their finances, paying for more and more events, chasing the ever elusive carrot (becoming a God-woman or God-man realized in the flesh), the goods aren't delivered.

When one looks at RSE, and weighs the pros and cons of maintaining "current status" in the school, one has no choice but to consider these issues, whether they admit it to another soul or not. The topic of "doubt" has been addressed in many of the audience teachings over the years. It has been cited as a student's biggest "necromancer". In private moments, between events, plenty of students will talk with trusted family/friends about their doubts. I suspect that this may occur with those who are also current/former students, more so than outsiders, because it's common to believe that they will "understand". This is a big part of the, IMO, brainwashing. "Outsiders" are swine - villagers - social consciousness - fickle, not to be trusted. (Don't be mad at me for saying this; it's what is taught to us, not intended as a personal slam to non-students)

So, when one has doubts - and it needles them that they watched an adult woman be slapped in the face and punched in the stomach (repeatedly), in front of 1,000 people (adults and children), the surivial defense mechanisms kick in so we can cope. Justification: Ramtha knows what is best for us because he's a Master Teacher.
Rationalization: Ramtha wouldn't have done that to her if it wasn't for her higher good, so it has to be okay that he did.

Now, when the doubt starts to outweigh the defense mechanisms, the thoughts start going more like this:
If the universe is UNlimited, then Ramtha could have reached out to help that woman in a way that he manifested it with gentleness and loving compassion, not physical ASSAULT AND BATTERY. Hmmm, that's just not okay. Hmmm, what about that father whom Ramtha punched in the chest repeatedly, directly in front of the entire audience and next to his wife and young son ? He says he loves and protects children, but he sure did act like physical assault and battery was "okay" to have done that in front of a child - the hypocrite.

Is that okay with me ?
NEVER. Not in "my reality". Ramtha appears to have limitations.

This is, in my opinion, where the critical thinking becomes important. Once we get outside of the Brainwashed Zone and have lucid moments where we ARE thinking critically, we are positioning ourselves for a big breakthrough. If Ramtha exists, who cares ? If he never did, who cares ? If he did and he left last week or ten years ago, and JZ is faking it or bringing through a host of other entities claiming to be Ramtha, who cares ?

As my mother told me throughout my childhood, "Don't mind what people are saying, watch what they are doing." Well, mom, I'd say do BOTH. When I do that, with RSE and ALL of it's "teachers", alleged channeled ones, JZ as a teacher, the "appointed" teachers, staff, the answers become clear.

I recall "Ramtha" telling the students, on a number of occasions, "You don't have to like me but I insist on your respecting me." I remember, even then, thinking to myself, "Who are YOU? We all have to deserve respect, not command it."

On the surface, "they" appear to be kind enough, nice enough, knowledgable enough, spiritual enough....
Then, as the interactions continue, the teachings advance, and a student starts to hear, see, experience, witness, the rude, dictatorial, power-tripping actions/words from staff (these are role models ???), the focus by JZ on first three seal issues, and the contrariness and emotional outburts, physical, emotional, mental game playing, degradation and mind f*** of "Ramtha" toward students, it's time to say...

Good-bye.

If this is your reality of what's spiritual, I can't (won't) dine at the table with you, because my reality is of an unlimited God who can do a better job with the universe than stooping so low as to assault "his children" that he claims he loves. No matter how it's rationalized or justified in the minds of the current students who NEED their defense mechanisms in order to sustain their validation of the school/teachings/teacher, it is what it is: abuse.

Let's hope that the truth will prevail with your loved ones (Aussie and Kryp), as well as for all of those other seeker-students who are wanting so much to find God within themselves, to such a point that they shut down and defend the likes of whatever presents itself on the stage.

(sorry so long, but i really think this needed to be said)

[aussiegirl]

Thanks Whatcha that was a great post, you certainly didn't offend me, remember us non-Ramsters don't care what JZ/Ramtha says about us because we don't believe and consequently don't care.

Also what you said in relation to critical thinking and those moments when it all just doesn't gel with your own moral code is really insightful and I believe the only way my partner will ever "wake up". He has had experiences that to him are irrefutable that Ramtha exists, nothing would convince him at this moment in time that he has been brainwashed, he believes his own experiences to be true. I can't argue with that, it doesn't matter how many Derren Brown or cult videos I might suggest he watches, he just doesn't believe that it could happen to him.

[FreeNow]

Take hope, Kryptonite, literally thousands and thousands of people who have been to the school have seen the Light.

'my reality is of an unlimited God who can do a better job with the universe than stooping so low as to assault "his children" that he claims he loves.' Watchmacallit

Absolutely Watcha, God is pure love and loves unconditionally: without punishment, assault nor anger. Anything less than that is a lower vibration - darkness.

[zyxwv]

Hey, so I used to post on the old board pretty frequently last fall, I don't think i've been back much since then. If anyone needs a refresher about me/my story, here it is:

I posted a lot about my then girlfriend who was getting into RSE pretty heavily. I was living with her (and one or two other Ramsters) and as I realized RSE was a dangerous cult, not just a "haha, look at those goofballs" cult, I got increasingly upset about her involvement. I asked for a lot of advice and even at one point asked for someone on this board to meet with us to tell her why RSE was a hoax, etc. We ended up breaking up, partially over Ramtha (paired with a general agreement that we were seeing life and our paths very differently and that there wasn't much use in carrying on a serious relationship when we didn't even share lifestyles, etc anymore), and I kind of stopped posting.

The relationship ended mutually and on good terms. We were still friends right away, and after a few months of awkwardness wearing off, we became even better friends. Anyways, I am SUPER glad to say that a couple months ago she decided not to go to her spring Primary, and last week she called me to say that she officially realized Ramtha is a cult and that she has severed pretty much all of her ties to it (mailing lists, etc).

We had a talk for a few hours and it went really well. She was only involved for a little over a year, so her freak out phase has been pretty short and mild, but I'm recommending her to EnlightenMeFree in case she needs any support. I don't know if she'll join the boards at all, but I just thought everyone would appreciate the update

[journeythroughramthaland]

zyxwv,

Glad to hear your x has disengaged herself. It would be interesting to hear from her her story of both her involvement and disengagement as well as the hows and whys.

Once again, Glad to hear from you!

[zyxwv]

thanks! I could tell her story for her pretty well, haha, but I'll see if she decides to join the boards so she can tell it herself. I just sent her the link about 10 minutes ago

[FreeNow]

Hip, hip, horray!

[Marie]

zyxwv -- I'm glad to hear your ex has been able to see through the muck! ... My family -- mom, sis, bro in law, continue to be heavily involved and are still planning their move to Yelm, as they are SURE that the end is "coming soon" and "very quickly"..... sigh.

[Whatchamacallit]

zyxwv,

what good news; another person gets out of that suppressive place. she may need some time to go through the information on this board, and the original emf msg board, if she wants to do that. if so, don't be surprised if she needs some time to think. then again, she may decide she wants to talk as she revisits her time in rse, and sees things from a different vantage point.

z's friend, if you're reading this, just know that you're one of many who has been in rse, gotten out, and then moved on with their lives. some more easily than others, and with different levels of fallout (financially, emotionally, etc).

one thing the readers/posters on emf can also tell you is that zyxwv sure does care about your well being, a lot !!! what a guy you have there ...smile...

[Whatchamacallit]

It's unfortunate that your family is still caught up at that place. Yes, the teachings are pushing the Doom & Gloom scenario, big time. A recent event that was held in France was even titled along the lines of preparing yourself to survive the Days to Come THAT ARE HERE. People that find that appealing for whatever reason, are going to go and buy into it, (in more than one way).

Someone once said to me that if they can be involved in helping others who were in groups such as RSE, one person at a time, then they consider they've done a good job. I agree, totally.

People need the support when they leave, a place to vent and release their justified anger, betrayal, confusion, whatever, along with getting support, information and resources that they may find helpful. If we do that here one person at a time, that's a good day's work.

When folks leave, they need to sort things out in their head, which may take who knows how long/short of a time. I've met and heard of a number of people who started "leaving" even when they were in the school. I also read about it in a book, where people will mentally and emotionally start to withdraw before they ever leave, physically. That's probably (for me), why I "got over it", within the first 4-6 months. Plus, I had a strong familial support system, who were dreaming of the day, LOL. We're all different and of course, process differently.

For you, you're on the flip side of it, dealing with these feelings because OTHERS are stuck, and you could probably pull your hair out with frustration. Perhaps in a way, it's good that you know what they are thinking, at least in general (preparing for doom and gloom at this time), so at least you have the awareness. Despite that it all sounds so crazy, it's good information for you to have so you know where they are at in the teachings.

I used to get emails that would have long lists of items to get for the days to come. The top 100 items that will run out in stores, that sort of thing. It was scary to think about not having those things. My husband, who maintained a more normalized view of it all, not being involved in RSE, kept bringing me back. I'd stock up on a few things, but not go too nuts with it, because he was an equalizer. I just worried for our kids. I suspect that it's fear that motivates all/most of those student-customers to do what they're doing right now. They are in survival mode in their minds. Perhaps the biggest hypocrisy of all, is that the core of the teachings is Behold God. Yet, these people are acting and preparing as though they are about as impotent as can be. The polar opposite of creating heaven on earth, that the glossy marketing campaign would entice (and delude) you into believing you WILL do.

I don't know how you can stand watching the madness. At least they believe in what they're doing, and why. You know better and you still are affected by it.

What keeps coming to mind is that ol' saying; You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[littlewiseone]

zyxwv----

Thank you so much for keeping us in the loop. This sounds so great! Funny how things work out sometimes. As I told you before, I'm very impressed with the way you handled the situation and it seems that the seeds you planted finally bore fruit!!

To your friend: If you decide to post here we would love to hear your story and I agree with Whatchamacallit, you have a very good friend in zyxwv.

[zyxwv]

zyxwv -- I'm glad to hear your ex has been able to see through the muck! ... My family -- mom, sis, bro in law, continue to be heavily involved and are still planning their move to Yelm, as they are SURE that the end is "coming soon" and "very quickly"..... sigh.

ugh, bummer. I don't really know what to say/what you hsould do about that, because people are all so different. In my case, I knew that 1) she wasn't TOO deep into it, 2) she's smart and with some occasionally pushing would totally figure it out on her own and 3) that over prodding would make her stubborn and resistant to me and therefore more likely to increase her RSE involvement. I'll be honest, I thought it might take a year or two, but I knew she wasn't stuck for life or anything. Your family's situation it pretty different, I really don't know what you can do about it :(

zyxwv,
what good news; another person gets out of that suppressive place. she may need some time to go through the information on this board, and the original emf msg board, if she wants to do that. if so, don't be surprised if she needs some time to think. then again, she may decide she wants to talk as she revisits her time in rse, and sees things from a different vantage point.

z's friend, if you're reading this, just know that you're one of many who has been in rse, gotten out, and then moved on with their lives. some more easily than others, and with different levels of fallout (financially, emotionally, etc).

one thingthe readers/posters on emf can also tell you is that zyxwv sure does care about your well being, a lot !!! what a guy you have there ...smile...

I don't think she was ever stuck so deeply that she would have any trauma preventing her from talking about it. I think she's really unsure what to tell her/our friends who are way more into RSE than she, but I'm pretty sure she's down to talk about it, etc. (Though her talking about it might range from reserved to pissed off! ) Fortunately, she didn't have too much invested in it (almost nothing financially, and I don't think too much emotionally either, though that's not for me to say), so it shouldn't be a really brutal "recovery" or anything.

I've met and heard of a number of people who started "leaving" even when they were in the school. I also read about it in a book, where people will mentally and emotionally start to withdraw before they ever leave, physically.

yeah, for reals. I think that's what she did, as well. She told me a few months ago that she wasn't going to her primary, but that she still wanted to be involved, etc, and that she still believed in it all. That was clearly her moment of withdrawal, even if it wasn't solidified yet.

Littlewise and Whatcha- thanks for the compliments I really did/do the best I can to just do what I can, accept the things I can't change, and work in the best way possible to help with the things I CAN change. it looks like this time it really paid off to be patient and admit when I was wrong, etc. She told me also that being honest, yet not angry or vehement was the best way that I could have gone about it. Really, I definitely have this e-community to thank to an extent. It was so necessary to hear from people with similar experiences, etc, and get different angles on how to approach this, even if i disgareed with some of the angles, heh.

[zyxwv]

Also, I gave her the lyrics to the song I wrote about this whole situation. Now that she has read them and laughed, I feel a lot more comfortable posting them on a public forum. I don't have a title for the song, and it's still not recorded, but here are the lyrics. Up until the first chorus it's more about she and I, less about RSE. But at the second verse it gets pretty biting; I think you guys will get a kick out of it:

Verse 1:
One time a lady was placed into my life,
at first I resisted but the timing seemed right.
While things weren?t perfect, they were near enough for me.
?What wasn?t quite on?? you ask, well that I would soon see

She lived her life by signs and what she felt inside.
To me at that time it felt just fine
That could have balanced a pair, but didn?t stop quite there
But all ups have their downs and so I didn?t think I cared

Pre-chorus 1:
I said ?I?m falling pretty hard, it?s catching me off guard
to have this pull right from the start?
But then out of she?d rise, which caught me more by surprise.
Because, she said, I couldn?t look into her eyes.

Chorus:
She?s gone! Is she coming home?
Or has she left me for the land of the unknown?
Will we return to the way that we were,
or will this new found group insist that no one?s good enough for her?

Verse 2:
Sooner than I thought she came back, and not
so briefly this time she swore
It seemed that I had won but their tricks had only begun.
T?was a breeze foreshadowing the storm!

Their influence it grew altering what she knew
and reason would only hold out so long!
If I call them for what they are, playing games with our hearts
I still won?t win because by their rules they can?t ever be wrong

Pre-Chorus 2:
He?ll tell you ?Have no fear, it?s just that the Days to Come are near
but everything will be fine when you come here?
But then he?ll warn ?You better be scared, and get yourself prepared!?
If what he says has no merit you?ll just have to grin and bear it

Chorus:
She?s gone! Is she coming home?
No! She?s left for the world of the unknown.
If she returns, will the fires have burned
till there?s no longer an ability to love or be hurt?

Bridge:
Oh, the days are a-comin? and the thunder is rumblin?
Everyone better march to the beat this ?channeler? is drummin?
In your hovels you will hide to get away from the tide
So give your money and your life, come along for the ride,

It?ll be a brainwashing good time!

Verse 3:
So take a pill to become a zombie, or heal on one?s own?
Create reality yourself, but do what you are shown!
And live simply with few possessions and be self sustained?
Or make money, play the game because you are what you have gained!

They?ll present these dilemmas for which no answers exist,
but if you can?t conjure one up I guess you can?t manifest for shit!
You?ll have to see that in life you can?t have it all
When their two extremes don?t reconcile it?s not your fault!

They?ll tell you that on your own you?ll only accomplish one,
but they?ll scold you to the point where you?ll do none!
They say ?without us you?re just human, but here you are a God!?
Despite that you?ll always be needing them giving you the prod

Please, dear, forget those contradictions, they?re impossible.
You can?t do everything in the world!
But don?t forget the seed of doubt that has been planted in your mind
Let it grow, let it sprout, and freedom you will find!

Enlightenment you?ll find!

Happiness you?ll find!

[Wakeup-Call]

I thought this was a good place to post this comment.

Reading Swami Binton's remarkably rambling yet exceedingly arrogant commentary as he "debates" those on the board has really given me pause the past few days. It could be Danielle Graham almost verbatim. But then some phrases he used struck me so hard because it could have been ME verbatim in the past years.

It's one thing to realize that I was involved with a cult. But it's really hard to think about having been brainwashed. Funny, I've actually been fine with saying "oh, yeah, I realize I've been in a cult for 10 years".... but it's been more difficult to take in that there was some brainwashing that happened, too.

Anyway, I snapped at ole Swami in his boat thread...after my thoughtful, articulate, patient, even brilliant exposition of the flaws in his analysis was flippantly dismissed with his incoherent gibberish.

The benefit, though, was that I suddenly had empathy for all you folks posting here who deal with this daily with your Ramster loved ones. I really understand now why people like Marie and Aussiegirl need a forum like this to vent about the crazy talk. Sheesh.....even I went searching for another thread, "another room in the house", where Swami wouldn't read and respond with his rambling Ram-babble.

[aussiegirl]

thanks Wakeup, it really is great to have an arena to vent our frustrations and to understand our loved ones better. Without those of you who have left but still remember the way you were I would really be struggling to understand why my partner says and thinks what he does.

[tree]

It's one thing to realize that I was involved with a cult. But it's really hard to think about having been brainwashed.

I can totally relate.

For the most part, I use humor whenever possible.
And it is especially refreshing if you have someone who understands the situation and is just as humorous about it.

yes, it's a hard pill to swallow and often frustrating when dealing with someone like swami.
All you can state is: "this has been my experience" and then do the best you can to articulate what it is you went
through and feel.