would we have joined RSE if we thought?Ramtha did not exist?

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would we have joined RSE if we thought?Ramtha did not exist?

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Copied from the Factnet Forum 2006 ...-Ramtha fact or fiction -

How many of us would have joined RSE if we thought ?Ramtha? did not exist?

david_mccarthy
08-21-2006, 01:31 AM
OK Guys.."Ramtha" fact or fiction....my take...........

Because ?something" is unexplainable does not prove the existence of ?something else??
Our Faith is the glue that holds our heart and mind together?
Take faith "trust" away and you have a ship without a rudder?A life without reality..
What the likes of JZ Knight have learnt to do is to control peoples ?faith?
Until it becomes totally disorientated and dependant on her ?Truth?
She can then pirate a life.... Goodbye rational thinking and welcome to Cultworld?
remember her slogan "Trust no one, love every one"
Somehow we must gently sift through our belief system ?Faith? and remove the RSE poison, including our belief in ?Ramtha??.
What then occurs is the healing and restoration of our hearts and minds?

And Happy sailing?

Forgive my ramblings but I was in a cult once..

chuckle..


David
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shakti
08-21-2006, 08:17 AM
thanks for a great post.

"remove the RSE poison, including our belief in ?Ramtha??. "

No offense to anyone, but I think David pointed out the most important aspect of escaping/moving past RSE. It is not uncommon that I see comments on various boards, that while noting RSE corruption and bad behavior, still seem to believe that there is a separate entity called "Ramtha" and use it as a "he". I use the term Ramtha as a "she" as in J.Z. "Ramtha" Knight. That's because Ramtha is J.Z. Knight. The whole thing is a fraud. Once people address it at that level rather than "J.Z seems to have misinterpreted the message of Ramtha", then everything else will fall into place.
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whatchamacallit
08-21-2006, 02:57 PM
shakti,

Do you have proof that there is no Ramtha? Or is this your opinion ? Just curious.
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trainedobserver
08-21-2006, 03:20 PM
"Do you have proof that there is no Ramtha?"

Well there is J.Z. Knight's bad acting for one.
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whatchamacallit
08-22-2006, 06:19 AM
and bad acting (subjective viewpoint) is not proof of Ramtha's existence, or non-existence.
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trainedobserver
08-22-2006, 06:21 AM
"and bad acting (subjective viewpoint) is not proof of Ramtha's existence, or non-existence."

The fact that she is an obvious phony is however.
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whatchamacallit
08-22-2006, 06:28 AM
I disagree, trained.
The question was if anyone had PROOF. The fact is, your opinion that she is a phoney, is your opinion. You're certainly entitled to it, but it's not proof.
I assume that you have read enough of my posts to know that I would be fine if the school closed. I am not in favor of what has been going on at that "school".
However, that viewpoint on my part, still does not prove or disprove whether or not Ramtha exists.
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trainedobserver
08-22-2006, 06:45 AM
Well there is such a thing as application of common sense and experience. In this case J.Z. Knight is obviously ripping off Jane Roberts' ?Seth?, there is nothing original about her. Her claims are absolutely ridiculous and unsupportable.

Knight is either a opportunistic phoney or an ?Ascended Master? that has chosen to create business out of enlightenment by setting up shop in an American housewife. In light of that Occam's Razor says that she's a phoney.
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whatchamacallit
08-22-2006, 07:02 AM
I understand what you're saying and why. I just approach it differently. To me, it may SEEM obvious that JZ is ripping off J. Robert's material.
You may want to look at Vera Stanley Alder's material. It certainly seems Knight has copied much of that work, too. I find that appalling, especially given the time/money/sincerity I put into the school !

Yes, I agree that at some point, common sense is also very important. That's why I am no longer a current student. I will not support what I have seen going on there, so I don't go.

But none of that is proof - to me - and possible to others. I want PROOF. Preferably legal proof - like she admits (hahahahah) she's a fraud, or it's somehow proven beyond all doubt, that she is. Or if Ramtha does exist, let that be known, too, and let him explain the controversy in the school ! Have some accountability here !!

It may be enough to choose to believe one way or the other, but it's just not proof. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to stay with the facts. I've seen years of people believing things without consistent proof (the fanatics in the school) and I just don't choose to do that.

I also respect others who have a different viewpoint than mine. That's another thing that is not tolerated in the school - everyone has to agree on everything or folks get quite threatened by it and one's dedication to the teachings is called on the line.

I have more to say but I have to get off here now!
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trainedobserver
08-22-2006, 07:12 AM
I mean no disrespect to you but in my leaving the realm of unrealistic belief the greatest obstacle for me was my desire for what I was investing myself in to be true. I believe when we realize we have been duped we naturally go through denial. It is a great loss akin to the death of a mate. Also, cultism does not encourage you to trust your own mind and your ability to think for yourself.
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david_mccarthy
08-22-2006, 11:22 AM
Proof?
Where?s Sherlock Holmes when you need him?
Oh but wait? he was a work of fiction also,
Chuckle..
Surely?Any claims of extraordinary human powers must be demonstrated with extraordinary proof.. ?I read that somewhere?.
Just how many red flags will it take?
If you are looking for a smoking gun then it will be too late, it may have been you, or a loved one at the end of its sights.
Proof?
Even when Clyde Hood was jailed for the Omega fraud most RSE students believed it to be a government conspiracy, Poor Clyde was innocent, and even when it was possible to get their money back by lodging a formal complaint.. Most students believed it was another conspiracy?.Did anyone hear from ?Ramtha? to explain how this ?FRAUD? could have happened. NO?
Proof..
It is already here?.but
The ?Ramifications? that ?Ramtha? is a work of fiction is enormous and possibly traumatic for some current and former RSE students.

I really hope our gathering in September will shed some light on this issue.
More on that later...

David

Proof anyone?
Email me at scamtha@yahoo.com


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trainedobserver
08-22-2006, 12:28 PM
Here is a similar scam that was busted recently.

08.19.06
?Cult? called ?Gentle Wind? is ?blown away? by Maine?s Attorney General
As reported by the Ellsworth American a purported ?cult? called the ?Gentle Wind Project? (GWP) has been ?blown away? by Maine?s top law enforcer.
Read it all at: http://www.cultnews.com/
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shakti
08-22-2006, 01:05 PM
Legal proof that this is an intentional scam may be tough, but I think looking into the allegations that her deceased husband caught her practicing the Ramtha voice offstage could be fruitful. As for pure discussion purposes, the burden of proof is on nobody but Ramtha HERself. For one's own mental consideration, the best blueprint is Carl Sagan's brilliant essay "The Fine Art of Baloney Detection". These are the questions to be considered and when one thinks about it, the whole thing seems ludicrous.


http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~urban/docs/baloney.html

J.Z. Knight of the State of Washington claims to be in touch with a 35,000-year-old somebody called "Ramtha." He speaks English very well, using Knight's tongue, lips and vocal chords, producing what sounds to me to be an accent from the Indian Raj. Since most people know how to talk, and many -- from children to professional actors -- have a repertoire of voices at their command, the simplest hypothesis is that Ms. Knight makes "Ramtha" speak all by herself, and that she has no contact with disembodied entities from the Pleistocene Ice Age. If there's evidence to the contrary, I'd love to hear it. It would be considerably more impressive if Ramtha could speak by himself, without the assistance of Ms. Knight's mouth. Failing that, how might we test the claim? (The actress Shirley MacLaine attests that Ramtha was her brother in Atlantis, but that's another story.)

Suppose Ramtha were available for questioning. Could we verify whether he is who he says he is? How does he know that he lived 35,000 years ago, even approximately? What calendar does he employ? Who is keeping track of the intervening millennia? Thirty-five thousand plus or minus what? What were things like 35,000 years ago? Either Ramtha really is 35,000 years old, in which case we discover something about that period, or he's a phony and he'll (or rather she'll) slip up.

Where did Ramtha live? (I know he speaks English with an Indian accent, but where 35,000 years ago did they do that?) What was the climate? What did Ramtha eat? (Archaeologists know something about what people ate back then.) What were the indigenous languages, and social structure? Who else did Ramtha live with -- wife, wives, children, grandchildren? What was the life cycle, the infant mortality rate, the life expectancy? Did they have birth control? What clothes did they wear? How were the clothes manufactured? What were the most dangerous predators? Hunting and fishing implements and strategies? Weapons? Endemic sexism? Xenophobia and ethnocentrism? And if Ramtha came from the "high civilization" of Atlantis, where are the linguistic, technological, historical and other details? What was their writing like? Tell us. Instead, all we are offered are banal homilies.
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mathew_morrell
08-22-2006, 01:09 PM
JZ Knight's failed predictions are proof enough that she is not channeling an ascended master. No ascended master could possibly provide so many false prophesies and bad investment advice that JZ Knight has in the last twenty years.

You have to laugh when people ask for proof of Knight's charlantry. These are people who simply can't read the writing on the wall and objectivly see the facts. They're so immersed in their fantasy world that they're unable to achieve any sort of objective detachment.
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david_mccarthy
08-23-2006, 09:51 AM
I remember ?Ramtha? telling us how much he loved and cared for us all,
And asking us to surrender our doubts about him? It was ?Ramtha? the father figure,
Who Teaches, Protects, Gives and Punishes. We begin to love this fatherly figure and for some....
they fall ?in love? with ?him??????
There are defining moments that govern our lives long after the event has been forgotten.
In regards to ?Ramtha? being fact or fiction there was that defining moment when I surrendered my doubts and became a believer.
Was there ?proof? in that moment?
Or was it all smoke and mirrors?

It may be helpful for us to revisit that moment.


David.
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trainedobserver
08-23-2006, 10:10 AM
"Or was it all smoke and mirrors? "

I would say it was more like applied psychology. Knight is just using a proven formula.
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whatchamacallit
08-23-2006, 03:25 PM
Shakti, yes, legal proof may be tough to prove in these types of cases. But we have a judicial system for a reason. These sort of cases have been in court before and they can be again. Personally, that?s what I respect. Not simply talk, insults, and opinions & emotions from people. We?re not victims. If we believe something is a fraud, we have a moral choice to make ? we do SOMETHING to try to warn others. Or, we ignore it due to fear of repercussions, etc. MANY former RSE students are filled with that fear. I personally know current students who are scared to leave. That alone should be a red flag, IN MY OPINION. But it doesn?t prove or disprove Ramtha?s reality.



Shakti ? In answer to your question; there are people (current or former students) in RSE who claim to have received miraculous healings in the school; some claim Ramtha was involved because he touched them and they felt a feeling like electricity go through them, and they were healed of their conditions. I have heard these people. Did they lie ? Was it real? Does it prove or disprove Ramtha?s reality?

As for the questions you posed, many of those have been addressed by ?Ramtha? over the years, and are recorded on tapes and/or in books. I?m not supporting a position, I?m just answering your question ? the responses are in the teachings. That they are truthful or not, or can be verified, is another story. Since we can?t prove Ramtha?s existence, we choose to surrender and believe based on faith. Religious devotees of all types have done that for a long time.

How does one prove who is telling the truth, or what the truth is with regard to the above? I don't know that one can. At some point, we all choose what we believe based on our experiences, whether we accept it, deny it, or reserve the need for an opinion.

I don't need to force myself to choose a yes/no belief about it, nor staunchly defend and attack others , either...except the belief that, factually, "I do not know for sure because I can't prove anything" and that is good enough for me. There are all sorts of OPINIONS about the reality or non-reality of Ramtha.

There are people who believe JZ did channel Ramtha, and that she became so materialistic, that she lost the connection, as the once loving and empowering message became more and more infiltrated with control/power/greed issues.

There are people who believe nobody ever channels, never did, and never will.

There are people who believe that no type of human "paranormal/intuitive" events are real. Others believe they are, but they are the work of the devil. Others believe they are real, and claim abilities along that line - and not because they are channeling anybody, but because it is their own innate ability happening.

continued............
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whatchamacallit
08-23-2006, 03:27 PM
There are people who believe Ramtha is always channeling and JZ has never faked it and never would.

There are people who believe that somtimes JZ is channeling Ramtha; and other times, she?s tapped into her own consciousness, hence the base, human qualities coming through "the teachings".

There are people who have claimed to accomplish, with inconsisent results, almost all of the disciplines taught in the school. Others haven't. Nobody that I am aware of, can do all of them, all of the time. I have witnessed lots of people succeed consistently, some of the time.

These are the array of OPINIONS I have heard. Is only one opinion the correct one ? Who can prove it? Can anyone prove it ? If so, under what criteria?

Stuart Wilde (author) claims that he has accomplished many of the same abilities that are taught at RSE. He does not mention RSE, and I don't believe he's ever been there. I'm questioning - what's real about the human potential? Can anyone prove that ? The man is still alive and he is allegedly doing these things himself (dematerializing, etc) - not some master channeling through him. That can be proven. If the human potential allows for these things to truly be accomplished, then people can contact him and find out if he's full or bologna, or not. This is digressing from the topic of Ramtha; fact or fiction - however - it's related as the claims made are similar. I have no experience with Wilde, myself. I?ve heard about this from third hand, only.

There were postings on this board with regard to a recent sequence of articles written in a local paper, about RSE. It was commented on here, that the articles were biased in favor of the school. Upon questioning the journalist, she claimed that there were former students who could speak from the opposite vantage point, but they backed out from doing so. That was her excuse for "one-sided" reporting. In a way, FACTnet, on this board, is one-sided posting, too. The fact also is that we do not have others posting on here, that support anything connected to RSE. That does not mean that other forums do not have such posts, however. They do.

The FACT is a court of law would require PROOF beyond a shadow of doubt that J.Z. Knight was/is a fraud. An Attorney General would be looking for proof, if that option for justice was followed. They are not in a fantasy world and neither am I. I don?t call personal opinion based on subjective experiences of myself or others, proof; it?s opinion. I am also not saying opinion is a bad thing ? just that I prefer to call it what it is. That such a trial would unfold without corruption and political involvement, is something some would question; that's another topic.

continued...............
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whatchamacallit
08-23-2006, 03:31 PM
Perhaps the question is, beyond anyone's personal opinion, what would a court of law look for in proving/disproving a fraud case such as RSE/JZ Knight ?

Perhaps another question is, as shakti said, if there is evidence to the contrary (that Ramtha does exist), let's hear it. The fact is, we have not heard of the incidents on this board, of what people could say if they posted here, to support Ramtha's reality. I would be willing to bet that if a student (current or former) dared to post anything at all in support of RSE on this board, they'd be attacked. I hope I am mistaken in that OPINION, but I doubt that I am.

I fully agree that it would be ideal - if he were real, that Ramtha would appear - perhaps in the middle of the arena - with 1,000 witnesses, and said who he is. Or maybe in an unexpected location, in front of lots of witnesses who aren?t even in the school. Or both. Or perhaps in the privacy of your own property. If he is real, and if he did such a thing, some people would still find a reason to deny it as real, or valid, or both. Who's living in a denial-fantasy world? If people don?t want to hear or see something, they aren?t likely to. Defense mechanisms can be quite powerful.

So, if one is willing to believe, as FACT, based on certain subjective, but acceptable-to-them-experiences or anecdotal evidence, that Ramtha does not exist, then what subjective, but acceptable experiences would define, for that same person, that he does exist, if he does ? If one isn't in a fantasy world on either end of the spectrum, they should have personal, subjective criteria that would set their minds toward making a choice about where they place their disbelief, or belief.

I am not in a fantasy world, and I can speak for myself and say that I am not the one with a "need" to believe/disbelieve Ramtha "is" or that s/he "isn't". I don't care if s/he is or isn't real as a priority. My purpose for posting on this board is because I know enough based on how JZ chooses to operate that school, that aren?t alright with me, and that?s bad enough. That alone forms my opinion about it. I care about what the school has devolved to, based on her business choices and practices. I am looking objectively at the facts as the experiences I have seen or heard myself and from others I believe to speak the truth directly; from what they themselves know firsthand. I don't like what's going on at that school, so I don't go. I'd like to see it shut down. Or it should be renamed to JZSM ? JZ?s School of Materialism.

But all of that still does not make opinion into fact. The only thing that is provable, is the fraud of RSE, through legal means. Unless JZ admits to fraud some, all or part of the time, or Ramtha materializes himself and says who he is. Then those who want to find a way to discredit it, can have a field day finding ways to deny it.
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david_mccarthy
08-23-2006, 08:35 PM
trainedobserver,

How about ?applied Brainwashing??

I believe we are dealing with ?an applied psychology of brainwashing?..by JZ Knight.
And just as trainedobserver observed ?Knight is just using a proven formula?.
This sorting out the fact from fiction?is paramount in helping to break the "Ramtha" delusion,
then Knights house of deception will fall,and the light turns on..
How many of us would have joined RSE if we thought ?Ramtha? did not exist?

So where does brainwashing fit into the "Ramtha" fact or fiction equation?

David.
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david_mccarthy
08-23-2006, 10:48 PM
While we are on the subject...

Today Mind control or brainwashing in academia is commonly referred to as coercive persuasion,

With coercive persuasion you can change people's attitudes without their knowledge and volition. You can create new "attitudes" where they will do things willingly which they formerly may have detested, things which previously only torture, physical pain, or drugs could have coerced them to do.
The advances in the extreme anxiety and emotional stress production technologies found in coercive persuasion supersede old style coercion that focuses on pain, torture, drugs, or threat in that these older systems do not change attitude so that subjects follow orders "willingly." Coercive persuasion changes both attitude AND behavior, not JUST behavior.


from http://www.factnet.org/rancho1.htm

*********


The goal is make the recruits vulnerable, to get them to give up whatever control over their thoughts and actions they might have. The goal is to make the cult members feel like passengers on a rudderless ship on a stormy sea. The recruiter or cult leader has a rudder and only he can guide the ship to safety.

The techniques available to manipulate the vulnerable are legion. One technique is to give them the love they feel they do not get elsewhere. Convince them that through you and your community they can find what they're looking for, even if they haven't got a clue that they're looking for anything. Convince them that they need faith in you and that you have faith in them. Convince them that their friends and family outside the group are hindrances to their salvation. Isolate them. Only you can give them what they need. You love them. You alone love them. You would die for them. So why wouldn't they die for you? But, love alone can only get you so far in winning them over. Fear is a great motivator. Fear that if they leave they'll be destroyed. Fear that if they don't cooperate they'll be condemned. Fear that they can't make it in this miserable world alone. The manipulator must make the recruit paranoid.

Love and fear may not be enough, however; so guilt must be used, too. Fill them with so much guilt that they will want to police their own thoughts. Remind them that they are nothing alone, but with you and God (or some Power or Technique) they are Everything. Fill them with contempt for themselves, so that they will want to be egoless, selfless, One with You and Yours. You not only strip them of any sense of self, you convince them that the ideal is be without a self. Keep up the pressure. Be relentless. Humiliate them from time to time. Soon they will consider it their duty to humiliate themselves. Control what they read, hear, see. Repeat the messages for eyes and ears. Gradually get them to make commitments, small ones at first, then work your way up until you own their property, their bodies, their souls. And don't forget to give them drugs, starve them, or have them meditate or dance or chant for hours at a time until they think they've had some sort of mystical experience. Make them think, "It was you, Lord, who made me feel so good." They won't want to give it up. They have never felt so good. Though they look as if they are in Hell to those of us on the outside, from the inside it looks like Heaven.

from http://skepdic.com/mindcont.html

(Message edited by David_McCarthy on August 24, 2006)
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trainedobserver
08-24-2006, 03:57 AM
?The FACT is a court of law would require PROOF beyond a shadow of doubt that J.Z. Knight was/is a fraud. ?

I don't know that is necessary. Did the judge require unreasonable proof in the ?Gentle Wind Project? (GWP) case in Maine? See http://www.cultnews.com/
?Maine?s AG filed a lawsuit against GWP for both unlawful mismanagement of charitable funds and making deceptive health claims about its paraphernalia.?
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journeythroughramthaland
08-24-2006, 06:26 AM
Hi Whatcha,

My desk dictionary has the following definition of "proof". I will only include the everyday usage and leave out the legal, mathmatical, and many other definitions of the word.

1. The act or process of proving; esp., the establishment of a fact by evidence or a truth by other truths.
2. A trial of strength, truth excellence, etc.
3.Evidence and argument sufficient to induce belief.

Given this framework I was wondering what you think is lacking as far as "proof" of R's existence and was wondering what would you require as "proof" for the existence or non existence of Ramtha??
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trainedobserver
08-24-2006, 06:47 AM
"...what would you require as "proof" for the existence or non existence of Ramtha??"

I'm thinking something as simple as a proper psychological evaluation of Knight in a clinical environment would do it.
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in_the_zone
08-24-2006, 08:44 AM
The only way to get to the bottom of all this is for people to come together and bring a class action lawsuit against JZ Knight for fraud, deceptive marketing practices and related issues, claiming that JZ is playing the part of Ramtha. Put her on the defensive and make her prove that she isn't conducting herself in a fraudulent way. A previous poster is right when speaking of those people in Maine...compared to JZ, those people in Maine were small potatoes.
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whatchamacallit
08-24-2006, 04:01 PM
This post is addressing responses to several of you?so you may find yourself in here. (smile)

JourneyTR, What would be ?proof? to me, is not what you posited. I am not interested in the ?general? dictionary definition. I am interested in the judicial system?s definition. RSE has hurt MANY people, as all posters on this forum know. Legal proceedings would give the opportunity for many people to speak out. In the same way that those of us on this forum have learned more than we already knew, by reading these posts, I assume there is even more that we don?t know, which would be brought to light in court. I?m interested in posting, and reading posts, which add to, and give back to me, information, opinions, and the SUBJECTIVE basis for myself and others to formulate an informed OPINION. That opinion may be, on a personal level, that the entire shebang is completely fraudulent. My entire point in this tread is one of LEGALLY defining fraud. I respect that. We?re talking about something here that?s very serious ? the potential of a woman?s business being cited as a fraud. If it is a fraud, let it be proven legally, beyond people?s opinions. Let her be accountable legally if she is found a fraud.

?I'm thinking something as simple as a proper psychological evaluation of Knight in a clinical environment would do it.?

I agree. Perhaps by several separate, and independent qualified clinicians. Not as with the ?testing? Knight participated in, with Krippner, whom she allegedly funded to do the study!!! Hello?

?The only way to get to the bottom of all this is for people to come together and bring a class action lawsuit against JZ Knight for fraud, deceptive marketing practices and related issues, claiming that JZ is playing the part of Ramtha.?

I agree with this, too. Someone already posted about filing with the Attorney General of WA state and gave the details to do so. Perhaps people will organize themselves and do just that ! If you read all of what I?ve posted below, you will also learn that the same Stanley Krippner that claimed the results of testing Knight ?proved? she was channeling, also was quoted as saying that Scientology was just dandy, too, like any other religion. Oops ! I dun?t think so, Lucy. I mean, Stanley.

continued.......
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david_mccarthy
08-24-2006, 04:02 PM
in_the_zone

Yes... Yes...and Yes.

Let us all participate and draw that day near...

David
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whatchamacallit
08-24-2006, 04:05 PM
hey, david....you messed up my 1, 2, 3 POSTS! giggle

continued.....

Quote from JZ Knight:
?We are not a cult, although we do love the sacred. And the sacred to us are those disciplines that we learn and those truths that we learn. When someone says, ?Well, what are you doing?? You say, ?Well, I am learning Consciousness & Energy?.? And they say, ?Well, what is that?? There are some aspects of it that you can?t tell people. And it isn?t that you are trying to hide anything.
It is just that, you know, there will come a time when you can never tell anybody anything; they have to experience it, just like you are going to experience it.? [excerpted from http://ramtha.com/html/aboutus/about-jz.stm ] [ insert whatcha?s personal comment: yeah, there will come a time you must shut up and sign a gag order, unless you want to be expelled, or sued. But nobody?s hiding anything, right ? insert sarcasm]

RSE?s ?proof? (tongue in cheek) that Ramtha exists:
This is what is posted on the RSE website about the TESTING done on Knight to ?prove? that she was/is channeling: http://ramtha.com/html/aboutus/faqs/jz/proof.stm

What else did the researchers discover?
Knight also withstood a number of psychological tests, along with a number of her students. "Knight and the students tested extremely high in their hypnotic abilities," said Dr. Stanley Krippner, a former divisional president of the American Parapsychological Association and Psychology Professor at Saybrook Institute in San Francisco. That, Krippner went on to explain, was a significant finding because the relationship between hypnotic ability and bipolar personality (schizophrenia) and other organic disorders is counterbalancing: when one goes up, the other goes down. "You cannot have both," he stated. [excerpted from http://ramtha.com/html/aboutus/faqs/jz/researchers.stm ]

Now for an opposing viewpoint of Knight?s and Krippner?s claims:
FRAUD? HOW TO DETERMINE IT ? IDEAS IN THIS ARTICLE
This is quite lengthy to read, but it addresses the criticism of the Melton study, claiming that what work did by Melton did NOT rule out FRAUD on the part of JZ Knight. Yet, it also offers considerations to ?prove? that JZ is a fraud, that are quite thoughtful in my opinion. http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/ram2.htm

How about a class action lawsuit against Knight for fraud, letting the judicial system decide, and if Ramtha does exist, he can show up in the courtroom in front of everyone, and claim his name and explain whether or not he has partially, fully, or never channeled through JZ Knight. If he has, then why is the school run in such a manner as it is, having caused thousands to depart and never return ?

continued....again...
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whatchamacallit
08-24-2006, 04:08 PM
?Ramtha? has said that he will do whatever it takes to get us to go home, including lying. JZ has referred to him saying it, also. It?s common knowledge, especially among long time students. The following might be of interest:

Nolo.com LEGAL dictionary - fraud
Intentionally deceiving another person and causing her to suffer a loss. Fraud includes lies and half-truths, such as selling a lemon and claiming "she runs like a dream."



The legal definition (which may not be the same as a general dictionary definition, by the way), of ?proof? is ?cogent evidence?. It is evidence in a court of law, toward determining something as one way or another. http://www.4lawschool.com/cgi-bin/nedic ... e&type=all
Cogent is ?telling, weighty, potent, powerful? http://www.4lawschool.com/cgi-bin/nedic ... t&type=all

If Knight is proven a fraud in a court of law, from the testimony of others, and perhaps the court ordered psychological evaluation of mental illness, that constitutes PROOF she is a fraud. In any other venue, personal or group, it remains opinion, or personal belief. Does that mean I am saying I think folks ought to attend that ?school? because we don?t (at this time) have legal proof of fraud ? Not at all. I wouldn?t recommend anyone go there. I certainly wouldn?t recommend anyone sign a gag order, who is current there, either. Whether one believes in their validity or not, there are many, many self-proclaimed channelers in the world. There are others who have a very similar message, and who do not have the need or belief that it?s necessary to have anyone sign a gag order to keep them quiet, of from publishing books, or traveling and gaining their own notoriety, or talking about their dreams (that just takes the thought police to a new level, eh? But it?s in the gag order ! ) ?and?these other channelers don?t have the need to justify that one must sign this legal gag order document in order to keep the teachings ?pure?. My opinion is the only thing impure, is the one with the strong arm coercive tactics ! My point is that there are so many reasons not to attend that ?school?, without the ?proof? of fraud. Gaining that proof in a legal setting, perhaps via a class action lawsuit, would be the frosting on the cake, since it would close the school and other innocent people wouldn?t get hurt anymore. That is more than the opinion/belief that the school is a fraud; it?s legal and gains action.

(the end)
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david_mccarthy
08-24-2006, 05:01 PM
hey, david....you messed up my 1, 2, 3 POSTS! giggle..

Yes..

I am also going to steal that giggle remark of yours.

Giggle..

So be it.


Oh by the way..

I know I may not say this often enough..

but.. Thank you..

David
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trainedobserver
08-25-2006, 05:08 AM
I just watched some J.Z. Knight video at google-video and I have say, the woman is so over the top I find it difficult to see why she has such a large following.

Go to You-Tube and watch this video of Jane Robert channeling "Seth." Compare her act with J.Z. Knight's. Both ladies are terrible actors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1hPZagaGhQ

(Message edited by trainedobserver on August 25, 2006)
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journeythroughramthaland
08-25-2006, 07:31 AM
Whatcha,

I agree with you. I think what she has done and continues to do is criminal. Unfortunately that is my opinion and I am not an attorney. However, the fact that she has a copywright on the character certainly gives credence to the fact that she is the originator of it. I mean, if some wierd frog that had never been discovered before came up to me in the woods, I don't believe I would have the right to copywrite it!

Another thing. I interviewed Krippner and the other guy Ian after the puplication of the study. I have a quote from him stating that in no way did his study proof the existance of Ramtha and he backed away from any inference of that statement. We also had an interesting discussion of the psycological profiles that had been developed of the students who had been tested.

Trained observer,
Don't you think that to expect JZ to submit to an evaluation like that is a bit like asking O.J. to take a lie detector test???

I was surprised that when the under aged girl had been molested that she got away with the excuse that she did nopt remember anything as she was channeling at the time, what an easy out! Why could she not have brought her copywrite to the courtroom to have its say??
________________________________________
david_mccarthy
08-26-2006, 10:27 PM
journeythroughramthaland...


I found some interesting reading from a web search today,
? True-believer syndrome? by M. Lamar Keene,
She has made some interesting discoveries??


David.

************************************************** ****

true-believer syndrome
The true-believer syndrome merits study by science. What is it that compels a person, past all reason, to believe the unbelievable? How can an otherwise sane individual become so enamored of a fantasy, an imposture, that even after it's exposed in the bright light of day he still clings to it--indeed, clings to it all the harder?
--M. Lamar Keene


From http://skepdic.com/truebeliever.html

A study done by psychologists Barry Singer and Victor Benassi at California State University at Long Beach illustrates the will to believe in psychic powers in the face of contrary evidence.
________________________________________
journeythroughramthaland
08-28-2006, 04:31 AM
Hi David,

If you have not read Keene's Psychic Mafia you will find it most helpful in discribing some of the many ways R/JZ can pull off her show. Keene was a phony psychic, and in the book revels many of the methods used to convince the flock. I am pretty sure it is still available for free on-line.
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whatchamacallit
08-28-2006, 10:14 AM
JTR and David,

I bought the book - it's an older book, but I got a used copy via amazon, (for your info). Yes, it is also available free, online. I read it there, but just wanted a hard copy, also.
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whatchamacallit
09-05-2006, 07:57 PM
I didn't want to start a new thread for this post, so this seems as good a place as any to share...
I came across this website in some internet travels today. It's owned by a woman who spent 30 years of her life in Scientology, much of the time at the very top "ranks". Yet, she broke FREE ! Then, because she is like many of us who has true compassion and concern for others, she created the website as an outreach. Here it is:
http://www.torymagoo.org/

It has echoes of the past......
________________________________________
trainedobserver
09-06-2006, 09:38 AM
If she were put on trial she could be ordered to by the court don't you think? She would have to "put up or shut up" once and for all.
________________________________________
david_mccarthy
09-06-2006, 10:45 AM
I sense that even JZ realizes her Ramtha days are numbered,
She is more and more inclined to promote herself as the star attraction of the show,
A modern day Joan of Ark... a spiritual leader with special powers.
She may have succeeded twenty years ago but her artificial reality is catching up with her,
Soon we will see the rats jumping off the RSE ship of selfishness,
the only person left will be JZ Knight drowning in her own delusions.
But until that day? I would like to see her dragged into court and called to account.

David.
________________________________________
whatchamacallit
09-06-2006, 11:46 AM
trainedobserver wrote: If she were put on trial she could be ordered to by the court don't you think? She would have to "put up or shut up" once and for all.

I'm not an attorney, but I do think a court to undergo testing from a source OTHER than the one she PAID TO TEST HER, as in Gordon Melton. This has received serious criticism. Gee, no conflict of interest there, huh ?

Personally, I agree with David that she's on a sinking ship - and a telltale sign of that is her need/want/choice to put herself in the spotlight as she has been doing, especially with the worldwide outreach attempts. Many if not most of the current student body are new foreigners.

Comments were made early in 2006 about the MANY students who have recently left the school.

It's also opposite of what was told to students in years gone by. Then, the message was that "Ramtha" only wanted or needed a handful of sincere students and that the teachings were not for the world, nor did "he" want them to be for the world. That also contributed to those of us who were current, feeling mighty elite about our lucky selves.

Yikes.

Live and learn.
________________________________________
whatchamacallit
09-06-2006, 01:18 PM
whatcha wrote: I'm not an attorney, but I do think a court to undergo testing from a source OTHER than the one she PAID TO TEST HER, as in Gordon Melton. This has received serious criticism. Gee, no conflict of interest there, huh ?

I meant to include the words "if a court ordered her". Just clarifying.
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mathew_morrell
09-06-2006, 09:06 PM
It seems as if all of us sense that the RSE movement is in decline, despite the success of the movie ?What the Bleep.? We see dropping attendance figures; we see rising anti-RSE sentiment in the Yelm community; we see signs of JZs growing frustration, evidenced by her increasing disregard for the student body. The movie was a shot-in-the-arm that temporarily vitalized the movement with national and world wide exposure, but at the expense of alienating those already in the school disinterested in the superficialities of popular culture.

After all, many RSE students are, indeed, sincere spiritual seekers. They?re the ones desiring a monastic lifestyle based on ?inwardness? and are un-motivated by the power-hungry aspects of JZs agenda. The back-to-nature impulse that the ?monastics? live by comes from a desire to simplify life down to it fundamental objectives, not to pimp JZs philosophies over the radio or to convert the ignorant masses through propaganda films.

A reason people feel the need to convert unbelievers is to compensate for their own spiritual emptiness. Out of this emptiness rises the conversion impulse: the desire to psychically enfeeble another person?s self identity in order that they may submit themselves to your will. Essentially, it is an act of frustration.

Collectively we can feel this spiritual frustration growing in strength in the minds and souls of the new-era RSE student. This is no longer the other-worldly sect that it was in the late 1980s and early 1990s, a sect which sought to hide its face from the world. The new-era RSE student seeks political office, the praise of pop culture, the thrill of conversion. New-era RSE cannot be satisfied with simple asceticism. It has been driven from it underground existence for the soul purpose of fulfilling JZs goals and ambitions.
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in_the_zone
09-07-2006, 07:29 AM
Regarding the intentions and outlook of people who pine to live monastic lifestyles, I think it is not as cut and dried as you suggest, Matthew. And I speak from experience when I say that there are a lot of simply lazy, something-for-nothing people who opt-into the "spiritual seeker" lifestyle. I know because I was one and I'm not the only one.

I didn't do the Yelm lifestyle thing but I've drifted in and out of numerous so called spiritual communities or spiritual meccas such as Sedona, Santa fe, Asheville and others. I was tempted to do the Yelm version, to move there from 1000 miles away and fortunately I decided to graduate from RSE instead, thank God.

I'm not so sure that people are attracted to the spiritual lifestyle because they're lazy and self-centered but they certainly become that once the lifestyle kicks in.

I think people who yearn for spiritual experiences and especially those who have them, sort of fall between the cracks and try and live between two worlds. This can be very confusing and can set the stage for living a sloppy life devoid of much accountability and willing to risk it all for one more deep spiritual connection.

Maybe this is just all in my experience of how I've lived my life but I suspect there are a lot of frustrated seekers who always feel like they're just a heartbeat away from "The Big One" spiritual experience that will set everything straight.

I've come to the conclusion after 38 years as a spiritual seeker that what matters most to me is little acts of love I can commit in life and get away with anonymously. Because if you look out across the ethers, what stands out most, what shines the brightest, what impacts energy around it is not words, yearnings, experiences. It's the sparks and light that jumps off a simple act of love, kindness, forgiveness.
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whatchamacallit
09-08-2006, 07:23 PM
Personally, I think that both of you (inthezone & mathew) are onto something. I think you're both right in regard to the types of "students" in the New Age movement, and/or RSE. There are probably other reasons for motivation, too.

Speaking from my own experience, I can totally relate to ITZ's comment about those who have/have had mystical experiences living between two worlds. That's me. That's been me since I was a little girl and had such experiences that I would tell my poor mother (who didn't know who to turn to as this stuff was not openly discussed as it is today).

I have like-minded friends that live in my general area, who can relate. Having one foot in a mystical world, and another foot in the physical reality of kids tugging on me, getting through college, fulfilling a career, planting gardens, visiting friends who talk about mundane things - and me wishing we could talk about other universes - or the validity of the current thought on quantum physics - can get quite interesting. For me, and for like-minded friends, we've expressed the need for solitude on the one hand, and keeping one's feet on the ground, too.

One woman said to me, "We're here. We incarnated and we are here to LIVE our lives; not wish we could escape it (RSE)." Makes sense to me.

That brings me to ITZ's conclusion that it's the little acts of love in life, that matter. Those things do have impact. Acts of kindness, from the heart, touching others. It can only benefit people - and it's free.

No mandatory events, no recruiting others from around the world, to pay large sums of money and being pigeonholed into some group at RSE...how lucky for us that we all figured it out, sooner or later.
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david_mccarthy
09-09-2006, 01:46 AM
I am sure most of us were attracted to RSE because of the promises made by RSE/?Ramtha? and co. The exhilaration of being amongst so many kindred spirits wanting to be a force of good in the world was like a homecoming of the soul, to become a powerful and positive force felt wonderful, We were ?convinced? we ?Masters? were destined to become great healers and social architects of a new world, We marched behind our great leader ?Ramtha?,, and nothing would stand in our way????. I helped dig underground bunkers and prepared for the end of the old world..
Such arrogance and madness..
?The End justifies the Means?. ?No pain No Gain|..
A master must sacrifice and must be tested..
?Ramtha? was even watching over my children.. ?Ramtha? was everywhere, even in the wind..even my thoughts...
I also believed that one day my children would be proud of their dad,
I had left them behind in New Zealand. They would finally come to understand the truth.
They could say.. My Dad is an enlightened master from RSE..

To discover I was part of the problem, not the solution was a devastatingly rude awakening.
Now?
I am so grateful and happy to be rid of the poisonous mindset of JZ Knight and the RSE cult.
I have reclaimed my mind and heart,
and the truth....


And? JZ Knight?
Whatever you think you are and whatever you think you have gained?
Your deceptions are fading and you will be held accountable.
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elsiet
09-09-2006, 01:48 PM
ODE TO RAM
This Ramtha dude- so we are told
Of strong physique and very bold
Could tote a 12 ft sword with ease
-Comes and goes on local breeze

He lived in times when earth was young
How could he speak with modern tongue?
But, JZ Knight who channels him
Imparts said wisdom- from within

Those that follow her strict decree
Must give ones all to inner see
That enlightenment is a special gift
Only the monkey mind dare resist

For our guru, life is sweet
Many rush to worship/grovel at her feet
But think again my fellow seeker
The price is high to find Eureka

You lose your ego,family friends
Your finance for her all depends
On rocking up, school after school
End result for me - ONE B#@!* IDIOT

Apologies- This just slipped out I think it is therupy !!
Also remember THOTS ? Small cylinder worn against the body to protect against electro magnetic fields The technology was said to be given thro dreams from Ram - I attacked mine [in a fit of pique] to discover a small copper coil set in resin
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whatchamacallit
09-09-2006, 06:27 PM
elsiet... i've never heard of THOTS. there are so many scams that went through (and still do) that community ! more than i ever realized before, which is another reason this forum is so informative; we learn from one another.

great creativity with the poem, too !
sad but true.

_________________________________________________________

Ramtha fact or fiction - Factnet Forum

http://www.factnet.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=9091
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....
Wakeup-Call
Posts: 271
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Unread post by Wakeup-Call »

Short answer - NO
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David McCarthy
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Unread post by David McCarthy »

Me too...

:roll:
But he has nothing on at all, cried at last the whole people....
California Dreamin'
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Unread post by California Dreamin' »

Absolutely NO :!:
California Dreamin'
Posts: 338
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Unread post by California Dreamin' »

P.S.

I was living a full and joyous life when I stumbled upon RSE. The month before I joined RSE I had a tarot reading in which the reader told me that in a month's time a male energy would enter my life that would be extremely influential in my life. Of course, the reader did not say whether the male energy would be a positive or negative influence.

I wish now that I could return to my state of mind (no pun intended) before encountering RSE.

Still recovering from post traumatic shock about the realization of the gigantic scam in which I was enmeshed. :x
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G2G
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Unread post by G2G »

I had to think about this answer quite a bit. My reasons for going to RSE weren't due to this "ancient being" jzrk claimed to channel. I really have never bought the idea of "channelling," and when I saw it at RSE for the first time, it was disturbing in that jzrk's behavior is what I would label as a circus act with abuse tossed in. So the answer to your question, if it were a real "ancient" school, aiding in helping us to achieve those 'gifts' the Bible purported, etc. (healing), enhancing one's pyschic (instead of psycho!!!) abilities - I still would have gone. I wasn't drawn because of Ramtha. It was that movie, "What the Bleep" through which I found RSE. Then on to the website and the ads of learning the ancient methods of healing, etc. I never wished to levitate, see through cards, or go oob. I already had a "dose" of intuition which served me well, but that was another issue that perhaps I could enhance, I thought. I only wished to help others. With or without the big guy/gal, these things are NOT accomplished. It's a sham, scam, and no-thank-you-ma'am, and the emphasis is purely on doing for oneself. Although there are students within RSE who do help others, it's only due to their own personalities and tendencies, and has little to do with the teachings, if anything, at all.

So, jzrk could give it up. If the "religions" of the world had provided truth for us, instead of more laws and mind control, people wouldn't be drawn to anyone like jzrk, imo. But again, my reasons had nothing to do with jzrk's impersonations, or whatever she might label it. I only wished to learn and help others.
Silly me! I ought to have known paying for such ought not be required, and only since I've been out after my short student stint, have I actually regained my spirituality and only now can look much more deeply within.

What I always see is this. The only thing that matters at all, anywhere, anyplace, anytime - is love - imo. It's all that I can see.

So, yep, I would have gone sans the ram - but again, this "character" wasn't the draw for me anyway.
Perhaps one day Judith will see through her "wisdom eye" - the spiritual damage her faux organization has caused for others. I would not wish to be in her shoes (if she hasn't sold them all on e-bay) - when she realizes this life or wherever - and feels the pain of those she's injured with her quest for qash - $$$.

8) 8) 8)
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972
sara
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How did I get hooked

Unread post by sara »

Dear EMF

This is my first post; I've been reading all the posts for two weeks now and want to say thank you to all of you - Tree, Whatcha, David and all the others - I have learned from and appreciated your openness and honesty, your willingness to put so much time into sharing your experiences, replying to other people, taking part in discussions. Your desire to help in a way that is true help; genuine, not deceptive or abusive, is amazing and a privilege to see. I wonder if maybe the "desire to be part of a force for good" (not the exact words) that I read about in a post - one of yours, David? is coming out now in the way you are here on this board giving your time to offer help to others, so that they don't go through all that you did? In any case, it is wonderful to see. I have gained so much from reading all the posts, so here is another example of someone you've reached and touched without even knowing it until now.

I don't know exactly what I can offer as I never quite made it to Yelm and only went to one retreat in Italy in 2003, but I'm going to share what I can as what I thought of as the Ram's teaching was incredibly important to me and a huge part of my life - and in some ways still is, even though I'm now picking apart what it was that I experienced - questioning everything, wondering to what extent I was taken in. I feel as though I have so little to offer in comparison with those who spent 10 or 20 years in the "school" - but will share it in the hope that it will maybe be of some use to someone. Some of the ways in which I got hooked in seemed - and maybe were - genuinely good - I did experience some good through RSE, although I can see that it could have come in different ways.

My first contact was with a woman who was very active in RSE for a long time; I met her through friends at a time when spiritual experiences - or spiritual growth - were not at all new to me - I had been introduced to the kind of healing I do now (which is absolutely unlike even opposed to, what I learned from RSE!), I had started to have two-way conversations with what I thought of as my "higher self" or "infinite self" and with inner helpers who were nothing to do with spirit guides - more like pure light - I'd spent years among the Sufis, was just leaving that path, and had an understanding or "experience" of God, or Spirit, or love, or all-that-is - the names don't matter at all, I just know what it felt like to be loved and carried by that love, to know it was there even when I couldn't feel it for a while - but I didn't know that it was possible to be "taught from within" and have two-way conversations with helpers or angels. The woman who taught me that - or rather, taught me that I could make my own connection, used to say, "This is true for me. It's for you to decide whether or not it's true for you." I would walk for hours listening and learning, and I didn't think it mattered whether I - or anyone else - thought that the connection was with my higher self, my intuition, with angels or helpers - I thought that it came from a level at which it was all unity, and that if there was such a thing as God, or inner helpers, or angels, they would talk to my intuition, not my "left brain", so that it all came to the same. I was also very familiar with Chris Griscom's work at the Light Instutite, which was the closest I'd found to what I was doing in the UK with (at first) the colleague who taught me. This gives you a little background - moderators, please edit or move my post if it's too long or off-track. Into this mix came the woman who was part of RSE, who became a friend. When we first met, I was talking with her about having recently left a relationship, and that it was difficult to leave my partner's three children - almost harder than leaving my partner. She asked me, "Did you gain from being with them?", and I said yes; she asked if they had gained from living with me, and I said that I hoped so. She asked, "then where's the loss?" I asked, wasn't it human to feel the loss of these kids... (and I still think that it is!) and her answer really caught my interest - she said, "Don't be human; be God!". Now I look back and think that this is maybe typical of the way that human emotions can be dismissed at RSE - I saw much more of that later - but at the time her words stayed with me because they were very much what the Sufis say - that you are God - not in an ego sense. That was what I got from JZR in the beginning. I remember walking across as cornfield and "hearing" - not aloud - the words "Wake up! Don't you know that you are God?!" Very much what the Sufis would say, but much bolder and more uncompromising than I had heard it from them. At the time I loved and needed that boldness; the impulse, or reminder, to know that I could take charge of my thoughts and be responsible for myself and my life. My RSE friend gave me a book; I think it was the "beginners' guide", which I also loved, not recognising the pseudo-science at that time - and she and I started to spend time together. She didn't just talk about the teaching; she and her partner and I sat around her kitchen table talking about everything that we had learned and were learning about life, about how we operated, about learning to be loving... She recognised that her partner had been truly loving and there for her, even though she had thought that she knew more than he did. I was impressed by her willingness to question herself, to admit when she was wrong. She would catch herself judging her partner, and say, "He does that, well, I do this, who am I to say anything about what he does. The other thing that impressed me about her and about the teaching was what I heard from her partner and sister. They had not been at all into RSE at first, but after a year or 1 1/2 years they had both asked her about it, saying that before she got into the teaching she had been very irritable and hard to live with, and now she was much calmer and seemed happy. They wanted to learn about RSE because of the changes they had seen in her... She lent me any book, any CD or DVD that I wanted; her sister was amazed my her generosity, saying that she didn't lend things to anyone. I spent a long weekend staying with her in the country and we ate, breathed and slept JZR. She told me about and showed me the C&E breathing but never pushed me into it - I was the one who joined her on the floor one morning and started to do it. I don't know what videos or DVDs she showed me that weekend, but they spoke to me, and I connected with the energy that to me was "Ramtha", I guess there could be all kinds of other explanations for what I experienced that weekend and onwards, but I associated it with the teachings and with JZR. Another interesting thing that I was not expecting at all - knowing absolutely nothing about orbs, I dreamt on the second night that I could see hundreds of spherical lights coming towards me and past me - just like the orbs I later saw in photos. As they came near me, out of some of them came beings who looked like little goblins - I had very little concept then of nature devas or elementals. My friend said that that indicated a strong connection with the elemental kingdom - I didn't know what other explanation to give; it didn't seem that vital. She also said that there would be a beginners' retreat in Italy that summer and that she thought I would be on it. Was that a suggestion? I don't know, but later in the year - she and I met in the New Year - I signed up for the retreat at Sportilia because I wanted to.

More to follow, but I hope this gives you an idea of what got me into the teaching and how some of it did seem good. I also noticed my friend being quite insensitive to another friend, flatly contradicting something that the other person believed - I thought then that it was just her manner. I can see now how it was probably more to do with the certainties she got from RSE. She would tell me things as though they were absolutely true, including things that I've found from this site were not at all undisputed. I guess that was a red flag that I became aware of later. I have to go for now - I hope this will touch someone, somewhere.

Sara
sara
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How did I get hooked

Unread post by sara »

I forgot to say, when talking about the woman who taught me psychic healing and would say, "This is true for me; it's for you to decide whether or not it's true for you" - what a contrast with the way my RSE friend would tell me things as though they were absolute truth! I can see that so clearly now. My healer colleague would say, "This is what I see, of course things can change; you must take this and weigh it up and make your own decision" - what a difference!
tree
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Unread post by tree »

Thank you for posting Sara. And thank you for taking time to read through so many posts.
I know the quantitative aspects of time spent in RSE seem relevant, but I think it is not.
As is the case with a few others who have "just gone to one event"
your life was completely, in your mind, turned over to RSE way of thinking.
yes, some have had it imbued on them for years and years, but the effects are still the same.
I, for one, would love to hear about your process coming out, and what you are still dealing with
at the moment. You never know who you may touch.
Welcome!

She asked, "then where's the loss?" I asked, wasn't it human to feel the loss of these kids... (and I still think that it is!) and her answer really caught my interest - she said, "Don't be human; be God!".
this pat answer of "be God" totally dismisses very strong emotions that are a part of human life.

What a devestating loss for you Sara.And I am sure for the children as well.
To this day, a previous partner's kids STILL tell their parent: "Ms Tree was the BEST partner/parent you ever had!"
And this, to me, speaks volumes.
The loss, even though under the guise of RSE that "chaos is good, embrace the change", was still underpining.

As another example,
I knew a couple who had their house flooded up to the 5 foot mark in their house in McKenna.
They were told by every student that they encountered that "this was a blessing in disguise."
I will never forget the words of a fellow RSE student who happened to be a psychologist.
They said: "Having your house torn down is one of THEE most stressful things a person could have happen
in their life. They still need to process those feelings." Yet, when they were guided through this process
of loss, they were still told "It was for the better."


even though she had thought that she knew more than he did
MAJOR, MAJOR subtle red flag! ding! ding! ding!
That, and the way she flatly treated her other friend.

Sure, her family may have seen some calming effects of the group,
but they do not want to recognize this narcissistic arrogance.
Something is not computing properly. :wink:
sara
Posts: 70
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Location: UK

Unread post by sara »

"even though she had thought that she knew more than he did"

"
MAJOR, MAJOR subtle red flag! ding! ding! ding!
That, and the way she flatly treated her other friend.

Sure, her family may have seen some calming effects of the group,
but they do not want to recognize this narcissistic arrogance.
Something is not computing properly."


Replying to this in the "red flags" section!
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