Skepticism and concern

[Chris]

I admit I am very skeptical of Ramtha's teachings which is why I have stayed away from these "out there" ideas for so long...

But there's two things about RSE that grab my attention...

1) The 1997 study where JZ was professionally studied and found that her brain goes into delta and eight different activities in her brain shift while she is actively awake (seemingly as Ramtha) and talking with people in Delta which is most certainly impossible on it's own.

2) She is right about ONE thing -- people DO need to learn to detatch their negative emotions from the external world... people are addicted to things like anger, sex and all sorts of external things and I've always believed (long before I found out about RSE) that if you're not in control of yourself and happy without something you'll never be truly happy with it... but I do FULLY agree that people need to learn to detach their negative emotions from the external world and really own them in order to be truly happy with their life. I also agree with the whole "being better than your body" concept of being in control of your body and emotions and NOT letting them control you.

At the same time though, there are a number of contradictions and Ramtha seemingly changing teachings over the years that seems sketchy... so I don't know what to think. [/i]

[Another Dimension60]

tedious as it may be to read past posts, you may find that answers to your questions have been addressed here. Meanwhile - the Glen Cunningham interview, part 1, has some interesting things to say about the 'experts' that did the study. And there is a thread dedicated to the scientific study which speaks to your question.Aside from the fact that the "teachings" are mostly from other printed material, you'll find your beliefs/perspectives in sources other than Ramtha, and probably in a more comprehensive and clear fashion.
In the 80's the essence of what Ramtha taught was the power OF - OF Being, OF allowing that which is God to flow through you; the teachings of the late 80's on is about the power OVER/ mind over matter (an anathema to the early Ramtha!) - i.e. your desire to be in control. Personally, I agree with the power OF -- to me it's as simple (the concept, not necessarily the Be-ing) as catching a wave - yes, it's necessary to swim and swim - and there comes a moment when you gotta give up control and be with the wave -- or, orgasms only happen when you let go - control will never get you there. ... But that's got nothing to do with Ramtha - that's just my personal opinion.
Again - there's lots of info here - and in the "original" message board.
Congratulations on asking questions! - That's a monumental step.

[G2G]

AD60, what an insightful response. One other thing about the so-called "testing." JZ hand-picked those who tested her. She showed a high degree of "disassociation." The tests in NO way prove anything in the way of her channeling anything. The glossy medical reports were a disgrace and as medical people here, we wondered just where were JZ's chest x-rays, spirometry, etc. demonstrating that she had emphysema, and the after results of her "having cured herself." There is much more about this in these threads, and hopefully these threads can be found in order to help.

As for JZ's teachings, one thing I've always known is that one cannot be happy with -anything- unless they are first happy within. I wasn't in the early teachings. But just look at people who are truly wonderful and great: Love one another. Just love one another.

[joe sz]

Chris
others have good things to say in prior posts about this

but keep in mind, as far as science is concerned that kind of singular study of JZ has no meaning if there are no comparative studies using the same tests on many other channelers as well as actors who fake "channel" to see if the brain waves, vital signs, blood work, etc. vary in any signifiacnt way. NONE of that was done so.

One can also take an extreme position and say, okay, Ramtha is real or is an "autonomous complex" as Jung would call it. The tecahings are stoill confusing and horrible as a life philosophy...."he" needs to go back to school.

He or it has not done a very good job of presenting himself, could easily prove his presence animating other bodies and repeating consistently exactly what comes out of JZ's mouth from folks who never heard of or read ramtha before---there are a host of folks out there who channel and would go for it. Of course, R is trademarked, therefore JZ controls her god-on-a-leash.

I will not go through them here but there are any number of simple, child level tests that the psi-team that tested JZ could have done to show that ramtha was autonomous but they did none of them. It shows just how bogus the whole enterprise was. An utter waste of time and science, imo.

Well, here's one: One of my daughters got into a discussion with me about ouija boards when she was 14. "Why don't you believe that real spirits contact people through a ouija?" she asked. I said it is not that I disbelieve but I would want test for the spirit. One way is to take an easy to read number or word like "interloper" or "1984Z0002", write it privately on a piece of paper, put that paper facing up on top of someone's head who is doing the ouija board while "successfully" contacting a spirit. Then ask the spirit to "read" the name or number and spell it out on the board. No one doing ouija has ever made that work as far as I know. I doubt very much "Ramtha" could pull off that simple remote view under properly controlled conditions.

[ex]

that would be the end of it . if you would test ramtha with the abilitys he claims to have.even as a beleaving student you can watch that jzr never ever shows how its done bejond a doubt.she hids behind her succesfull students.

[joe sz]

ex
I challenge any of JZ's most "successful" remote view students [or ex-students who still believe they have this power] to take the simple ouija test I proposed above...and they would not even have to use a ouija board

Let a trained stage magician conduct the test agreed upon by both sides and with observers from "both sides". It should be video-taped by a neutral company from several angles.

btw, James Randi still has a BIG check for anyone who can pull this off....

[Caterpillar]

Hello Chris

I had the same concerns about RSE and the two things you mentioned kept me in RSE for 9 years! I only decided to exit from RSE two weeks ago.

In answer to Question one about the scientific study. It was not a true scientific study. Check out Carroll Cobb's brilliant speech at LARSE meeting about the so-called scientific study and the false science of the school. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0899846516

Carroll mentioned that people with multiple personality disorders can produce similar results.

Also there's some info on the not very scientific study on EMF. Here's the link:

http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... +cobbs#425

In answer to Question two about the teachings on the emotional body. Judith is NOT the originator of those teachings. Think Buddhism, Theosophy, Rosicrucian etc which existed before RSE. I only found out about the similarity between Theosophy and RSE from EMF in the last few weeks. I verified that for myself by going to the local Theosophy library and seeing similar teachings there and RSE recommended readings. I used to think that other people copied from Ramtha. I now realized that Judith copied from them but she patents everything which gives the impression that RSE is the originator. NOT!

I also found other discrepancies with Judith's own life story ie she has 3 different dates when Ramtha first appeared to her and whether or not, she was married to the dentist at the time when Ramtha appeared to her in Feb 1977. Judith can't even get her own story with Ramtha right.

My findings in the last month is in this thread if you're interested:

http://www.enlightenmefree.com/phpbb3/p ... sc&start=0

Caterpillar

[Chris]

Thanks guys for posting all of this stuff! Your answers were WONDERFUL and informative!

It's really good to read and expand my mind. The thing about this forum was that I KNEW that if I came on here and flipped through and RSE's teachings were in fact real that I would find numerous replies from some of the thousands of students over the years arguing back with "No, I worked hard and I did achieve the ability to tap into the mind of God" or "here's an example of what happened to me"... I seem to find NONE of that on the forums which leads me to believe RSE is either a scam or the "Master of Cards" is one enlightened and lucky man lol...

I'm glad I only downloaded RSE's audio stuff off the internet free to listen to it... I would have REALLY regretted spending more than a penny on that crap.

[Chris]

Also, after reading books such as Masters of the Far east, I have become further fascinated by the potential of the human body/mind.

I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on this :)...

http://www.yeeeeee.com/2008/06/28/the-a ... r-old-man/

[Another Dimension60]

You too are to be admired for your open minded search and willingness to hear.

Re the Masters of the Far East - fictional, perhaps truth. - also much discussed here - search the book title and I 'spose you'll find the posts. My surprise was that the Castenado books were fictional. Mutant Message Down Under is also claimed to be fictional -- but I saw the author when she was in Yelm years and years ago - and she 'felt' true to me -- at the very least, she "got" Ramsters RIGHT away.

Bottom line that I'm learning, and others here, I think - let books and teachers and whatever be at the most 'pointers' - the answers are within you, and no authority outside of your Within is to be given your authority.
Compassion posted a lovely quote re "abilities" - - but, if nevertheless you want to seek psychic abilities first anyway, there are "legitimate" classes available to learn to improve such sensitivities, and loads of books. The environment at RSE is NOT conducive to learning anything since it is at it's essence abusive, and, creates an internal division in a person - fostering constant guilt, not enough-ness, attempt to stop emotions and questions and personal understanding. Certainly people 'find' their cards, and guess colors, and even actually remote view - but so what. What does that prove? I had a regular Doctor try and tell me re the concept of where you put your consciousness is where you'll go - i.e. finding your card. ! So, again, none of the concepts at RSE are original.

How long does it take to grow 6 inches of fingernails!! Interesting story.