The EnlightenMeFree (EMF) Online Debate Forum

-Moderator Comment-
This new topic has been split from Joe's main thread: Catholic Church Cult.
Thank you Joe, Kensho.
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Kensho
thanks for response

I can think of dozens of channlers since the Theosophists al la Blavatsky unleashed the modern "thou art God" myth [totally misinterpreting Buddhist and Sanatanadharma teaching re Thou are That, not to mention Christian and Jewsih mysticism/gnosticism].

Guy Ballard and his wife Edna [Godfre Ray King/Lotus Ray King] are cases in point--note the names.

The Ballards took on all the "signs" of the Divine King, even claimning that one could do decrees/mantras to not only ascend in this life but become an "immortal" with an indestructible body Liz Prophet and her hubby taught the same thing. "Liz prophet married a man named Kosp (randall) after Mark Prophet died in 1973--Liz made Kospp change his name to King legally--thus she became Eliz. Clare Prophet-King!

JZ has done the same by claiming the "king" Ramtha as her own [she is his "daughter" thus inheriting the "crown" [Also, the god possesses her and she possesses the god]. JZ also repreats the Ballard mistake of yearning for that immortality on earth.
Hell, even Jesus had to give up the ghost after being battered to death..., so who are these channeler creeps trying to impress?

McNamara demontrates that the Divine King is totally human and must be willing to die, lay down his life for his friends, as the sacrifice for mistakes and sin...and this goes back to paleolithic times.
If not, he [JZ/Ram] is no divine king. he is merely "demon possessed", perhaps exhibiting some "divine powers" but also jealously guarding them like a dragon with its hoard of gold.

well, I finished McNamara's (2011) 2 volumes on Spirit Possession and Exorcism.

the 2nd volume ends with a 20 page reitieration of the Roman Catholic rite of exorcism that the author places squarely as similar to the early, preChristian rites from Zoroastrian and pre-Neolitic times. w/o elaborating here [this book is but an intro and leaves me with an awful lot to chew on, let alone digest], the author gives evidence for "positive" [divine king] and "negative" [demon] possession and what we have done as a society to sustain the good form of possession and eradicate [exorcise] the evil.

Possession in his view can be seen as giving oneself over to something transcendent to improve the self and society---as in being possesed by God or Buddha-mind---
or
succumbing to a lesser god or demon [or system] that will inevitably ruin the self.

All religion is based on this spirit possession.

I grasp this in my own 4 point 'what is a cult' model that begins with a "Transcendent Attraction" or something that can take us out of ourselves so we can shed the old and put on the new...you know, the old caterpillar--butterfly motif.

McNamara's book offers significant neurological evidence that we humans are instinctively wired to seek transcendence--I mean, "death" can't be the end...can IT???

A healthy brain however mimics the role of the divine king who not only is "God" but is also "Mortal", thus must apply reasonable rules and reality-based judgments to rule. iow, the divine king cannot merely act as God willynilly or purely thru intuition even if he is God.

In the same manner, a healthy brain/mind remains as asymetrical as possible, knowing how to separate dream from reality, heaven from earth, science from magic, lie from truth, etc.
The "demon" possessed brain, confuses all that, avoiding the truly divine [thus the screeching of demon possessed persons when a divine object is presented to them]. The demon will confuse--blend it all together in some symetrical concoction, claiming "all is one", "we are all divine", obey yourself and not the "divine king", there is no separation---thus, no need for sacrifice. In true sacrifice we separate the body from the blood, thus causing real death---iow, the king [or his holy proxy] must be willing to die for his people in battle because the king represents al the people and takes on all the evil afflicting his people.

I watched the Lord of the Rings 3rd film again yesterday--Tolkien was keenly aware of what McNamara posits as the divine king/sacrifice. All true kings in Tolkien went first into battle to face death. The evil "king" the Eye, sent his cloned orcs and others in his place and remained aloft as a burning all seeing eye on atop his tower, craving the ultimate power of the ring.

In the past i saw this "symetrical brain" activity in Theosophy and all New Age cults of blending all religion into one as syncretic. Now i can grasp why this is wrong from a neurological pov...te brain needs to keep things separate to be able to "think" things through and come up with what Buddhists call "Right Mind".

On another thread, I read where seriously wrote:

As a kid (7-12) I remember seeing Edgar Cayce books around the house. I really didn't know what it was all about but I remember my Mom taking a trip to Virginia to go to a workshop. She would often discuss past lives, auras, channeling and other metaphysics.

Cayce was one of those channelers that mixed/confused his dream self with reality all the time, thus came up with some bizarre and useless "healings" and stupid predictions about the coming "earth changes."

McN indicates that the last real effort we made in the West to establish the proper Divine King was over 500 years ago with the Holy Roman Empire, but we made a mess of it, thus our society began to fracture into "priesthoods" with now thousands of christian and post-Christian neo-pagan sects and cults. he states that government has attemptd to take up this slack as in the US form of republican democracy, but he questions the long term efficacy of our system because we have "no overt form of sacrifice."

In the old days of the divine king, there was a divinized sacrificial victim [human, animal, veggies] that would be killed and burned, thus taking all the evils and maladies of society away so that society could begin anew.

i recall when i lived in Santa Fe NM, every year there would be the "burning of Zozobra or "old Man Gloom" in Sept as a harvest ritual to begin the Fiestas. An artist, John Slaon and others introduced this ritual in the 1920s--it was a subconscious revalorization of what McNamara says we "must" do to keep our culture healthy.
http://www.zozobra.com/history_zelpasa.html

We have to have a way to depose bad kings or cult leaders for cults to grow into healthy religion. We have to have a way to dispose of the evil in a real way and not merely through use of insular ritual like C&E, TM mantras, CUT decrees, bogus sweat lodges, etc.

Usually, a tradition will provide something that is proven to work to remedy ills or mistakes in any culture---cults tend to be insular or "bounded in choice" by a leader's limitations. Suc leaders are "possessed" by a "demon" in the model offered by McNamara, whether you view the demon literally or metaphorically, and not by "God."

It sounds like a set of books worth reading so it is on my order list. Thanks for your insight and comments, Joe. Based on what you have brought forward, here are some of mine:

QUOTE: "...a healthy brain/mind remains as asymmetrical as possible, knowing how to separate dream from reality, heaven from earth, science from magic, lie from truth, etc.
The "demon" possessed brain, confuses all that..."

Perhaps this is another fundamental difference between cultish organizations and Catholicism or other recognized religions. The former seems to promote this sort of confusion (giving one's mind over to a line of thinking which claims that one is a supernatural being or god-incarnate), while the latter promotes the separation between reality and fanciful/superstitious thinking (Deal with the fact that as a human being, one can strive for the ideal and higher grounds in morality, ethics, behaviour etc).


QUOTE: "In true sacrifice we separate the body from the blood..."

I remember hearing that the blood is considered to be the spirit in physical form (Sorry, but I can't remember where I heard that...it was pre-RSE though). Could it be a reference to releasing the spirit from the body as would be done in the acts of physical sacrifice?

Buddhists don't focus on a 'spirit' per se, but this may simply be a matter of semantics. I suspect that 'the continuum of consciousness' could be perceived as the equivalent to what some perceive to be the spirit.


QUOTE: "...the brain needs to keep things separate to be able to "think" things through..."

I fully support this persective. How else can one analyze anything and thus learn through experience; even on the most fundamental of levels?
The alternative to analysis is to operate with blind faith in hearsay. At least for most individuals, unless there has been a period of analysis so as to be certain that such faith is well founded or appropriate through past experience prior to that decision, such faith would truly be blind. Such an unfounded blind-faith state opens the door wide for the entry of abuse.

Cult leaders (especially self proclaimed enlightened ones), seem to universally claim that all analysis by humans/followers is and has been mistaken; and therefore is useless. The follower is pressed to choose between analysis and blind faith; but as the process of choosing is itself often manipulated/influenced by the cult, there really is no choice at all if an individual accepts even the smallest amount of what is being promoted. The door as it were has been opened enough by then for the abuser to enter and 'clean house'.

Organized religion on the other hand tends to promote the benefits of analyzing actions and consequence; and yes, admittedly as in Catholicism and Buddhism as well, the faithful are often simply told that negative actions bear negative consequences beyond human imagination. I believe that this 'short-cut' to analysis (aside from socio-political influences), was and is in place because it was recognized early on in religious structure, that many people simple do not have the educational/experiential basis (we're talking sheep herders and nomads of old), or the mental capacity (children) to make such an analysis. This is much the same as telling someone to avoid something due to the consequence when they might not have the experience of it, but otherwise the consequence has been experienced by others.

Essentially the principles of analysis which must by its nature be based on duality (pro/con or good/bad), of experiences and the discernment that comes from that, is what is promoted in Catholicism as awareness of sin, an archery term meaning (having recognized) missing the mark, and in Buddhism as awareness of 'the law of karma'.
Both of the terms sin and karma have been given so many mistaken meanings especially in modern times that the original meanings of those terms is probably beyond rehabilitation, yet the basic principles of sin and karma are nothing more than the physical law of 'cause + condition = effect'.
IMO, the base principle of those terms have been left behind, when in reality, if one accepts the principle of cause, condition and effect, a super-natural being is not needed to right wrongs, exact human ideas of justice or reward so called good behaviour. Based on the principle alone, the effect of one's actions (good or bad), become the cause or the condition for another effect to manifest; and then that becomes the justice or reward to in turn be experienced.


QUOTE: "...cults tend to be insular or "bounded in choice" by a leader's limitations. Such leaders are "possessed" by a "demon" in the model offered by McNamara..."

If a 'demon' as described is perceived as something that one gives the mind over to, then one might also say that misplaced desire is at the root of it. Thus, if the desire for power, products, services and even belief structure itself etc, overtake the ability to differentiate between want and need, then pretty much anything that one embraces fully enough to be controlled by it could be perceived as a demon. Such a demon, would by its controlling influence, also obstruct the ability to act through intelligent analysis or critical thought.

It seems that people striving to be free of even the most common 'demons' such as food fixation/addiction, alcohol, cigarettes, loneliness, hatred, judgement etc; as well as those wo may be striving for something with greater meaning beyond day to day existence might be just what cult leaders and religious organizations are looking for in potential followers. The difference between the two lies in the motivation behind the offering of assistance, the methods used, as well as the potential outcome for the ones who are striving.

IMO, if the methods and outcome leaves those who are striving for such things with another controlling demon to contend with, it is probably a cult.
Even though I had some of this insight before getting involved with RSE, getting sucked in by the pseudo-neuroscience that was presented during a first event was enough to open the door to that particular demon.
Maybe this is why many religions suggest restrictions and/or place limits on some things that followers might read or pursue as 'education'.

With love, Kensho

Thanks for reply, Kensho

It seems we've gone away from the main topic, unless someone wants to continue with comments re "catholic cult."

To summarize, McNamara's 2 vol study:
It helps us place RSE and JZ in a specific category of a "demon possessed" religious activity.
Ch 2, Vol 2: Brain Basis of Demonic Possession goes over all the relevant brain disorders [eg epilepsy] to the history of "possession" and what we learned from published reports but NO brain scans have been done to his knowledge. The author is not arguing whether a real, testable demon exists, rather he accepts the phenomenon as a historical artifact and an explanation when all other relevant medical factors are ruled out and the patient has no chronic mental illness. Also, the "demon" in such cases appears to have an autonomous will and appears to respond to exorcism ritual. The demographics show that up to 75% of possessions are females w male possessing entities. He distinguishes between "mere spirit possession" and "demonic" as the latter eventually does psychologically and physically harm the host and others.
"The feminized brain [includes effeminate male] is characterized by a reduction in the asymmetrical organization that characterizes the brain of heterosexual adult males....in short, a reduction in asymmetry may be a risk factor for demonic possession." (Vol 2, 23)

This risk of lowering brain asymmetry can be exacerbated by focusing on ouija board games, trance exercises [recall JZ playing w pyramid power in 1977] and illnesses that disturb sleep/dreaming.

This is interesting when I look at all the channelers I've studied over the years. The vast majority are women, and mostly women historically follow channeling/possession cults. Males who channeled tended to be either gay or subservient to a female: EG, Nicholas Roerich deferred to wife Helena who did most of the "channeling" as far as 20 books of Agni Yoga teachings. Blavatsky was succeeded by C S Leadbeater, a gay man, as the next medium for the Masters after HPB. 2nd generation Theosophist W Q Judge also took up channeling the same masters after HPB died, was married to a staunch Methodist woman.

I recall one history professor I met, Lyle K, who took up channeling "Heltha" around 1985 after he began playing with automatic writing. He was a professor of Women's Studies at Cincinnati U. He told me his whole arm suddenly went numb during one automatic writing experiment and this Heltha entity took control of it. A few weeks later, he "allowed" Heltha to control his entire body and voice. He was equally as good at this as JZ ever was in her early years of Ramtha possession. Lyle is an example of what McNamara would call "spirit possessed" as opposed to demon. I believe Lyle stopped channeling shortly after I grilled Heltha on stage in front of her devoted audience of 50 people one time, a year in to "her" career. Lyle actually came up to me afterwards in the lobby and asked what I thought was happening to him! Heltha never got so into him to form another insular cult around him. And Heltha was not an alcoholic or addicted to nicotine when I met "her."
Heltha was New Age lite in her teachings at the time but seems to have disappeared.


The Catholic Church [and similar religions], in principle, value the Divine King possessed religious activity. iow, despite all the corruption and flawed popes and clergy, the idea promoted is one of Christ-self rule through self-sacrifice and charity [eg Mother Teresa; Sir Albert R Cook] based on the archetype of the founder. A Christian cannot be one with God unless "possessed" by God through Jesus and behaves accordingly ['If you love me, keep my commandments.' This is Right Action in Buddhism].

RSE values self-sacrifice only if it is directed to JZ and her workshops--whether Ramtha is a demon or not is less important than to recognize that Ramtha is no Divine King that has to be "spotless" [lamb of God] to be an effective sacrifice in a universal sense. Ramtha can't stop drinking and smoking....let alone bragging, boasting, fuming, cursing, acting, posturing, posing, refusing to debate in an open forum [as Jesus and Buddha did], abusing meds, etc...

more on Divine King principle in human evolution:

If anyone has been following the Penn State debacle regarding sex-abuser coach Sandusky and the recent [yesterday] published opinion as to weather Joe Paterno [Joe Pa] was truly an accomplice or enabler, the news was a harsh judgment on Paterno's giant legacy.
Jul 12:

Freeh concluded that Paterno and other powerful Penn State leaders were concerned that Sandusky be treated "humanely", but they did not express the same feelings towards his victims

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_State ... se_scandal

Using McNamara's theory we see Paterno, a true "divine king" type for Penn State, [and a catholic, btw] now in a position to "take on the sins" for the entire university by "crucifying" Paterno. There is a 90% outcry to tear down the Paterno statue and erase his name from Penn State honoraria--like Paterno library etc. The entire tribe will then feel 'forgiven' supposedly while they seek a new "king" who can appear as innocent [a lamb] as Paterno did for all those decades.

To put this in context for RSE, JZ cannot play the 'divine king' role because she lacks integrity as a "person"---I did not do it, Ramtha did!

With Joe Pa, the court was able to determine that it was indeed his fault to have enabled Jerry Sandusky all those years.

With religious channelers like JZ, the court might convict her of something but "Ramtha" remains innocent and vice versa. After all, didn't the so-called scientific study show that she was "not" Ramtha? therefore JZ can never be "king" and can never "die for her sins or the sins of her tribe."
Joe Pa was "the king" for Penn State.

This may be the true tragedy for all those who fall prey to the possession cycle of a channeled spirit---individual integrity dissolves and confusion reigns in the personality and among all the devotees.....