The EnlightenMeFree (EMF) Online Debate Forum

Moved by the moderators from the Forum Index ? The Days To Come "TDTC"



First, I would like to thank you for having this website. It has provided me with a great perspective as I have worked with a loved one that is in RSE. Please keep up the good work and I am sure that this site will only grow in popularity. I thought that I would include a letter that I have recently been drafting, removing the identifying information but leaving the very feeling and conflict that I have experienced while confronting this issue. If any of you have suggestions, I would appreciate the input. Thank you. The letter is below:

Dear mom -

I have thought a lot about our recent conversations. I have become more concerned for you than I orginally was based upon your latest responses. I worry about your psychological health which may someday impact your physical well-being. A couple of the points that you have mentioned that give me particular concern are the following:

- As unwielding as fundamental evangelical Christians, you knew since you were a child that you are to be reserved for these last days, "end of days," the rapture, or days of apocalypse (that is pretty much a show-stopper: how can anyone reason with a person that persists in this irrefutable, irrational, narcissistic, unverifiable, emotion-based conclusion?);

- you now consider the end of days to occur as defined by the 2012 video (alien invasion, economic and environmental collapse, sundering of the ascended faithful and damned non-believers, etc.) on December 21st, 2012;

In my concern, I have reflected upon you and me - on my love for you and our past as wandering (and wondering) souls. I cannot end the conversation about this, settling for polite, uncomfortable silence, without saying what I need to say below. I suppose that Ramtha warns you that your family, including children, may turn on you as you delve deeper into the lessons (an effective ploy used in mind control outfits). I have no doubt that family members do this out of love, and I assure you that it is out of love and concern that I write to you now. I feel duty-bound as a loving son to share with you the following and I implore you to step outside of your reality for a moment to consider several points. If you decide that RSE is still for you and you believe that I am the unenlightened trying to deceive you, so be it - I will feel that I had tried what I could at the risk of hurt and offense, and I will love you no less. For me, this argument is as much intellectual as it is emotional. There will be no retributive behavior on my part - no silent treatments, no tantrums, no pouting...

I have just about no doubt in my mind that RSE represents something in your life that fills an incredible emotional void. I don't know what the genesis of that void is, but I can speculate from my perspective based upon our intertwined histories. Have you wondered if perhaps the reason why you have consistently sought after teachings that promise you eternal bliss and overcoming death beyond the final days of civilizational destruction is because you have an inner, perhaps subconscious phobia of death? You sought out the ___________ church in college. You admit to me that you probably joined the church for the apocalyptic teachings of the "last days." You have raised a family in a doomsday faith, one motivated by fear of punishment and promise of eternal reward, one that encourages the stocking of years of supply of food. I have spent my life trying to resolve my own participation in that faith and finally extricated myself from what can only be described as unethical childhood indoctrination. Some of my other siblings are still in it - all as a consequence of you trying to resolve this fascination of death and rebirth (immortality). Is that fair to them? I feel that the circle of experience has made me much stronger, so I have little regret. Do you feel that your children possibly suffered spiritual fallout because of your obsession? Dad has expressed to me his regret, which was touching, if unnecessary. I have heard ne'er a hint of this from you. What if in our impressionable years we were weened on the teachings of thought-provoking philosphers and rational scientists instead of the doomsday teachings of superstitious men recorded in hundred and thousand year-old writings, lessons that are so out of touch with our modern knowledge that I would laugh if I didn't find it so sad? Where would all of us be today if you taught us the mental discipline - outside of religion - to think for ourselves, judge our world, learn that our morality is derived not from religion, the Holy Ghost or Light of Christ, but from our membership in the precious family of humankind? Perhaps we would still have Christians in the family, perhaps not. At least our decisions about the origin of our existence and the future of our souls would not have been imposed upon us at the age of two (I think that's when you start sunday school, no?). The amazing phenomenon of memetic replication only guarantees that such dubious and fear-based realities are now impressed upon a whole new generation - your grandchildren, my nieces and nephews.

You left the _________ church and went up into the woods to pursue the teachings of Ramtha. In the wake of that change in institutional authority, I saw my mother leave her former life (including a retirement pension), file bankruptcy, hoard food, prepare for the inevitable bunker lifestyle of the last days and dedicate tens of thousands of dollars to an organization that promises you the keys to generating wealth. You have made many predictions, and I have seen you quote Ramtha as making many predictions that have simply failed to materialize. I'll never forget your determination about Omega investments (or anything, for that matter, that you perceive to be true but lacking reasonable evidence), your words, "just wait and see," still echoing in my head. All of these things have failed to come to be, yet you persist. Why? Is my mother a fool? No - not even close. She is very smart but I think she has a personality that makes her susceptible to marginal group influence. You and I have talked at length about emotional (wishful) thinking - about fear-motivated behavior, etc. I cannot believe that you were attempting to reasonably argue with me that you are not succumbing to this fallacy when you are pursuing so doggedly a group which defines as its fundamental promises the keys to the following:

- Ability to generate - spontaneously or through alchemy - wealth (gold, money, jewels);
- Ability to cure disease in yourself and others;
- Ability to cease the aging process;
- Ability to unlock the god within you.

Are you kidding me? Do red banners of doubt not furiously wave or screamnig alarms of danger not go off in your head, warning you that this could possibly (even mintuely so???) be the emotional reward promised to those that are susceptible to wishful thinking? I suppose for many, the bells fail to sound, or they find a way to ignore the flags. They think they are "special," that they have the insight and everybody else is lacking what they have (there's the narcissism). In essence, they "suspend belief [rational thought]." It is beyond belief to me that a god, or ascended one, comes to Earth, fails many predictions, copywrites his lessons of enlightenment (always evolving) and produces a multi-million dollar insititution, and still people think this is just the way of the enlightened one.

Below is a brief article on persuasivity in organizational behavior. This is one of a myriad of articles backed by study that finds very common traits in particular groups. There is a lot of dialog out there on the symptoms of those that are susceptible to the cognitive dissonance - the process that makes such groups attractive to them. The data are provided by professionals, by dispassionate researchers. I hope that you take some time to do some of your own research on the matter (even if it is not, no, especially because it is not on the RSE reading list). They are not trying to prove a particular group wrong or right - they are interested, as I am, in why people think the way they do. The data are legion. RSE is not special in this case. It is just one more organization that employs the same techniques and that has lived, died, or currently practices its demanding doctrine. You tell me how many symptoms you see in the RSE structure because I see just about every bullet point:

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Dr. Robert J. Lifton's Criteria for Thought Reform
Any ideology -- that is, any set of emotionally-charged convictions about men and his relationship to the natural or supernatural world -- may be carried by its adherents in a totalistic direction. But this is most likely to occur with those ideologies which are most sweeping in their content and most ambitious or messianic in their claim, whether a religious or political organization. And where totalism exists, a religion, or a political movement becomes little more than an exclusive cult.
Here you will find a set of criteria, eight psychological themes against which any environment may be judged. In combination, they create an atmosphere which may temporarily energize or exhilarate, but which at the same time pose the gravest of human threats.
(a brief outline)
MILIEU CONTROL

* The most basic feature is the control of human communication within an environment
* If the control is extremely intense, it becomes internalized control -- an attempt to manage an individual's inner communication
* Control over all a person sees, hears, reads, writes (information control) creates conflicts in respect to individual autonomy
* Groups express this in several ways: Group process, isolation from other people, psychological pressure, geographical distance or unavailable transportation, sometimes physical pressure
* Often a sequence of events, such as seminars, lectures, group encounters, which become increasingly intense and increasingly isolated, making it extremely difficult-- both physically and psychologically--for one to leave
* Sets up a sense of antagonism with the outside world; it's "us against them"
* Closely connected to the process of individual change (of personality)

MYSTICAL MANIPULATION (Planned spontaneity)

* Extensive personal manipulation
* Seeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such a way that it appears to have arisen spontaneously from within the environment, while it actually has been orchestrated
* Totalist leaders claim to be agents chosen by God, history, or some supernatural force, to carry out the mystical imperative
* The "principles" (God-centered or otherwise) can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation (or enlightenment)
* The individual then develops the psychology of the pawn, and participates actively in the manipulation of others
* The leader who becomes the center of the mystical manipulation (or the person in whose name it is done) can be sometimes more real than an abstract god and therefore attractive to cult members
* Legitimizes the deception used to recruit new members and/or raise funds, and the deception used on the "outside world"

THE DEMAND FOR PURITY

* The world becomes sharply divided into the pure and the impure, the absolutely good (the group/ideology) and the absolutely evil (everything outside the group)
* One must continually change or conform to the group "norm"
* Tendencies towards guilt and shame are used as emotional levers for the group's controlling and manipulative influences
* Once a person has experienced the totalist polarization of good/evil (black/white thinking), he has great difficulty in regaining a more balanced inner sensitivity to the complexities of human morality
* The radical separation of pure/impure is both within the environment (the group) and the individual
* Ties in with the process of confession -- one must confess when one is not conforming

CONFESSION

* Cultic confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself
* Sessions in which one confesses to one's sin are accompanied by patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change
* Is an act of symbolic self-surrender
* Makes it virtually impossible to attain a reasonable balance between worth and humility
* A person confessing to various sins of pre-cultic existence can both believe in those sins and be covering over other ideas and feelings that s/he is either unaware of or reluctant to discuss
* Often a person will confess to lesser sins while holding on to other secrets (often criticisms/questions/doubts about the group/leaders that may cause them not to advance to a leadership position)
* "The more I accuse myself, the more I have a right to judge you"

SACRED SCIENCE

* The totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic doctrine or ideology, holding it as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence
* Questioning or criticizing those basic assumptions is prohibited
* A reverence is demanded for the ideology/doctrine, the originators of the ideology/doctrine, the present bearers of the ideology/doctrine
* Offers considerable security to young people because it greatly simplifies the world and answers a contemporary need to combine a sacred set of dogmatic principles with a claim to a science embodying the truth about human behavior and human psychology

LOADING THE LANGUAGE

* The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliche (thought-stoppers)
* Repetitiously centered on all-encompassing jargon
* "The language of non-thought"
* Words are given new meanings -- the outside world does not use the words or phrases in the same way -- it becomes a "group" word or phrase

DOCTRINE OVER PERSON

* Every issue in one's life can be reduced to a single set of principles that have an inner coherence to the point that one can claim the experience of truth and feel it
* The pattern of doctrine over person occurs when there is a conflict between what one feels oneself experiencing and what the doctrine or ideology says one should experience
* If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly
* The underlying assumption is that doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one's experience to that "truth"
* The experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt
* One is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one's own evil
* When doubt arises, conflicts become intense

DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE

* Since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not saved, and do not have the right to exist
* "Being verses nothingness"
* Impediments to legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed
* One outside the group may always receive their right of existence by joining the group
* Fear manipulation -- if one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their transformation, for something bad will happen to them
* The group is the "elite", outsiders are "of the world", "evil", "unenlightened", etc.

Excerpted from: Thought Reform And The Psychology of Totalism, Chapter 22, (Chapel Hill, 1989) & The Future of Immortality, Chapter 155 (New York 1987).

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The article seems to be specifically referencing RSE, no? It's not. It is the same model used in Islam, Jonestown, Nazism, Heaven's Gate, the Davidians, the Singers, Charles Manson cultists and on and on and on...Another prevailing characteristic as outlined in articles and studies is the identification of a common characteristic in many that are susceptible to manipulation. Such groups (cults, study groups, religions, etc.) tend to attract many that indulge in a form of nacissistic thought - they have a tendency to fall for the "I understand what the rest of you don't" fallacy. How can anybody outside then have a discussion with them? You think we just don't get it. No wonder you need to "suspend belief" so often - none of it is based upon a reality to which we in the "outside" world can consent, and no loved one or disuading expert is going to convince you otherwise. Your predictions and RSE tenets of belief are certainly lacking in rational thought, structured critique and logical analysis. Sure, they are slyly mingled with wonderous lay interpolations of quantum physics, a New-age mysticism that has creeped into popular science and alarms the vast majority of physicists. Still, do you not have any concerns that the "outside" world may not be the ones that don't "get it?" It is the whole self-questioning thing that is part of healthy analysis. While you call it suspending belief, I call it forsaking your mental tools - your scrutiny and intuition that would tell you that there is danger in them thar hills of Yelm. Now that you are an RSE insider, you consider any input contravening your Ramtha doctrines as heretical, you no longer suspend your belief, but dismiss the warnings and counterarguments with uncritical ease. You become as closed-minded while on the inside as someone skeptical and on the outside may be of RSE. Then you accuse the outsiders of being closed-minded for not accepting RSE arguments (and RSE alone). Do you see the circular logic? It is very subtle.

True to being open-minded and in the interest of debate, I study RSE. Despite the intellectual naseau that RSE initially produces in me, I look further and only become more dubious of the claims and more convinced that JZK, Inc. is nothing more than an incredible if not brilliant money-making machine. I have read a lot. I have read testimonies, doctrines, seen videos and the experiences of others first-hand. I am concerned for you. I do not suggest to you any other model around which to structure your life, so to what non-provable belief am I cleaving? I am not saying that MY cult is the right one...I am merely saying that my mental tools to discern the behavior of others are more accurate in our shared reality. The only thing I subscribe to is critical thought, to open-minded analysis, to historical facts (as opposed to alleged ancient mystical statements). If you simply try to trump that process by saying "so-and-so said it's true, so I believe it," or "I feel nice when so-and-so tells me that I can live forever," then you are failing the argument. If you do not become the least bit concerned by the cultish fervor of RSE, then you are not stepping outside of your reality and not being honest in your evaluation.

In our conversations and, more significantly, our lives together, I have become convinced of a deep personality trait of yours: you refuse to accept the mistakes and hardship that this line of thinking has brought upon you, therefore you are condemned to live it over and over again. Let me tell you something: if you decide to leave RSE in the next five or ten years, I predict that it will only be because you have found a greater promise of apocalypse and death avoidance offered by some other group - that is, unless you recognize in you your pattern of behavior and fear of mortality. You are not going to overcome death through creating your own reality, mom. You are not going to be able to cure yourself if you develop terminal cancer. You are not (despite what non-scientific testimony you have from RSE membership) going to be able to summon into existence gold coins. After all the times you have been mistaken in prediction, are you still so obstinate as to let something like this dominate you? I hope not. I hope that you hedge your bets some. As I said before, I will talk with you about this and always be honest with you about what I see. Here I see a patterned logical fallacy that has caused you harm and may someday destroy you. I confront you because I love you. I would expect somebody who loved me and observed me holding my hand repeatedly to a red-hot stove to try, with all their effort, to stop me and explain to me (since getting burned over and over again was not having a risk-avoidance effect) why this behavior was injurious.

I am happy for you when you are happy. There are times when Ramtha does not preach about doomsday and I see you much happier and tolerant. As long as this is a mind-expanding adventure for you, I am not worried. When it becomes a fear-mongering, black/white extremist creating, socially alienating, paranoia-inducing, physically dangerous nightmare that I see it now (and again) becoming for you, I am going to do my best to wake you up - to be a voice of reason in the darkness. At that point, I want my once-wise and measured mother back. The philosopher Daniel Dennet writes in his book Breaking the Spell that it is a legitimate moral dilemma to decide whether or not to confront others of irrational, nonsensical belief and behavior - even if it comes from mainstream religions. Dennet decides that it is incumbent upon others to do this when our loved ones' beliefs and actions can cause them and others harm. How much more so do I feel it necessary to break your spell in such a dogmatic, spiritually-parasitic group! In the end, however, we both know that you and I are only responsible to ourselves for our own behavior and I will respect this above all else. I will never mention this topic again unless you solicit additional conversation.

After I speak to you on January 1st, 2013 and the world has not come to an end and you have not ascended with the "great masters,": what then? Please do not succumb to another revision of your history - to a mitigation of the fervor and the precision with which you judged the end of days to come to pass on December 21st, 2012. Two weeks later, will you then begin to suspect that there is a misfire in your interpretation of reality? I hope so. I hope that you confront whatever demon is driving you to overcome mortality - that you have the psychological courage, self-respect and mental discipline to be honest with yourself and recognize your fear - to seek your own spirituality and peace without the absolute control and permission of another, to conquer that fear instead of bury it under your wishful thoughts and the ulterior assurances of others. Free yourself. I love you.

Love your worried son

Ruprecht-

A very thorough, well thought out, loving letter to your mother. I can totally appreciate it for what it is , but I am on the 'outside' now.

As a former member fpr 19 years, I can say to you that had I read that letter 5 years ago, my brain could not and would not be able to
see all the logic and scientifically backed information in your letter. My brain did not have the ability to discern certain phrases or words.
And my brain definitely would have an aversion to many of the words and phrases.
And as far as emotionally, the more someone would have pursued trying to make me see the errors of my ways, I would have just thought:
"Well, I tried to persuade them, but I will just have to let them go and rot with the rest of the unknowing world."

I DO think the viability of the patterns you presented might be the one thing going for you. But to actually point out, point blank (as if "in your face" method) of "you have this fear of mortality", that might prove to be a bit much and backfire.
NO RAMSTER wants to be told they fear death. NO RAMSTER wants to be told they are human and subject to human conditions, because they just won't believe you even if their best friend who is in Blue College were lying next to them dying of cancer. They would reason (as has been taught at RSE) "my dying friend just did not do enough disciplines."

You have presented a wealth of information for your mother.
I hope SOMETHING leaks through to her.

My heart goes out to your entire family.

Ruprecht, what a deeply moving, thoughtful and sobering letter to write to your mother (does 'open letter' mean it is a letter you have written but not yet sent to her...? I never know, I'm slightly unfamiliar with that expression - anyway, it doesn't matter either way, although I definitely think this is a letter your mother should read). I disagree with Tree that confronting her on her fear of death is too 'in your face'. True, she may not be able to hear it right now but I think far more important than all the very well researched and documentable scientific arguments you make, is the obvious love and concern you have for your mother. This will be what strikes a chord in her and will remain as a flickering ember which may yet spark into the full fledged doubt and insight you are hoping to kindle.

I don't know your mother (I don't think) but I can tell you that your observation of pinpointing her propensity for involvement in groups like RSE to her fear of death is the most astute and accurate observation I have seen made by an 'outsider' yet. I firmly believe that it's accurate to call the root cause of my involvement in RSE fear of death, which seems ironic because while in the school I thought I was conquering that fear not living in it. By the way, I never subscribed to the days to come rhetoric so for me it wasn't fear of death in the cataclysmic sense but rather in the more basic sense.

The idea of 'conquering death' can only be borne out of obvious delusion or, to put it more compassionately, fear. Philosophically speaking, we could argue that to conquer death does not actually mean not dying, but rather living a life so fulfilled and complete that one is at peace with leaving it all behind.

Of course, this is not what is taught at RSE. I don't mean what is 'said', because 'ramtha' like any other inspirational speaker can conjure up all kinds of poetry when it comes to what life is really about. But rather we should look at what is 'done', since the actual teachings and disciplines are meant to remove students from what most sane people would define as living: experiencing the variety of life, engaging in thought-provoking dialogue and expression, appreciating human complexity and mystery and most importantly the ability to 'feel' (...a dirty word in rse, you know...) compassion and empathy for all life.

I commend you on writing such a heartfelt and clear letter to your mother and hope with all my heart that you will continue to reason with her. I received a handful of letters during my 8 years in RSE from friends and family similar to the one you've written and although I didn't specifically act on any one in particular, I never doubted that each was written with the utmost love and genuine concern. Somewhere inside, that had an impact even if I consciously wrote them off as 'not getting it'. Very often it's not one major thing that makes a person 'wake up' but lots of little things that add up. I can tell you that my dad's well reasoned arguments stuck with me even if I argued fervently against them at the time. As you probably realize, any argument you bring up has already been addressed within the teachings and your mother will have an answer she can recite based on the fallacious arguments prepared by RSE. However, just because she argues that line does not mean she wholeheartedly believes it... it may just take time for her to admit that.

Good luck and thank you for sharing your insights. I wish the best for you and your family.

Ruprecht
It's been a while since I have posted. forgot my emf id for a minute there!
Your "open letter" to mom is quite a statement. Shows me you have thought this thru for some time. As someone above mentioned the letter is really for yourself and "us". RSEMom will most likely find it tedious and will use "thought terminating cliches" [Lifton quoting Lionel Trilling] and the inner language of "non-thought" to avoid processing everything critical you say to her. In other words, she will take the easy way out due to cognitive dissonance: "Oh, that's just your reality and not my experience". The 'cd' theory by Leon Festinger and others says that most human beings will revert to old beliefs and superstitions rather than change their minds in the face of solid evidence to the contrary.

So, what might change her mind? Someone someday will have to present the solid evidence to her after she trusts that someone. It takes effort and time to cultivate that trust. Unfortunately, loved ones and good friends are rarely good sources because they cannot switch roles from "friends" to "experts" in the cult member's mind. One the other side, it is hard for a son or daughter to relate to mom as a client. Issues and emotions get easily confused. For similar reasons, professional, ethical counselors in any discipline will not "counsel" their loved ones. Neurologists will not do brain surgery on their daughters or sons but they will play the role of father well through the ordeal.

This is not to say she can't figure it out on her own....someday hopefully. Most people do leave cults on their own and then struggle to put the pieces together again, to become whole again. Those who learn to turn to appropriate sources and good counselors early on do better quicker.

best wishes,
Joe

on further contemplation of the mortality issue for myself today:

When I entered RSE, death had never even crossed my mind. I was 27.
So when RSE presented the potential of ascension I thought, "Wow! This rocks!"

When I left the school, however, 19 years later upon exiting, I was left with the issue of mortlaity
(along with spirituality, betrayal, loss of social structure, including the loss of RSE " family and friends,
loss of what home was, etc). To have to realize at the time of leaving the group that soon, I would have to address
each and everyone of these items. Add to that, a year of living hell , recovery and stress in Yelm adding to high blood pressure
(which my father died of) and PTSD.

So, mortality is a real issue upon exiting such a group. AT least for me it was.
But I did not have a pattern like RSEmom does.
And this is where I posted that I think Ruprecht
had a very viable observable pattern to present to his mother. She can't deny this pattern.

I can tell you that my dad's well reasoned arguments stuck with me even if I argued fervently against them at the time.

this, I think is quite poignant. This stands upon its' own merits above and beyond what littlewiseone offered about the heartfelt letters.

Wow. Thank you all so much for your comments. I find them very insightful, to the point that she would perhaps benefit more from your "former insider" perspective than my letter. To clarify, I composed this after months of more polite but fruitless conversations. I admit that the letter is perhaps too "in your face," and that is certainly a less-effective manner to persuade. The tone is borne by my frustration and desperation as I have seen my softer attempts to reason with her fail. I understand that "TDTC" rhetoric lately has been elevated at the ranch and I only have to observe my mother's harried messages of extremism and doom to feel a growing concern for her. If I can at least plant a seed of doubt with her, perhaps she will think twice before doing something which even in her surrendered state of mind, she would question the wisdom of it. I would not be honest if I did not say that my greatest fear is that my mother would blindly give her life if it was so wished by the capricious Ramtha. I do plan on giving her this letter (along with your input unless someone objects) soon, perhaps with some fine-tuning based to no small degree on your insight.

Thank you so much again,

Ruprecht

Perhaps if you were to pretend to align yourself with your mother's beliefs in RSE (only for the purpose of discussing your concerns) she would be more open to what you have to say.

When my husband wanted me to leave RSE (13 years before I actually left), he verbally attacked Ramtha, and RSE, and the teachings. He told me I was brainwashed. This approach put me on the defensive and made me even more tenacious in my defense of the school. At that point in my life, NO ONE was going to be allowed to question or attack what I believed was sacred. I thought I was "special" and that everyone outside the school just weren't as privileged as me since they didn't receive the "calling."

You would need to humble yourself, but I propose you tell your mother something along the lines - "because you are my mother and I love you I decided to sincerely review information that you said you're learning at RSE from your viewpoint and I want to have a better, more open understanding of the teachings because they are so important to you."

Maybe if you opened a conversation in this manner she would be receptive to having a non-threatening discussion with you. You could tell her that from what you have been able to determine you find the science and physics teachings fascinating, but tell her you are confused because XYZ presents that same information as Ramtha, only with a slightly different slant. Be prepared to show her what you're referring to. (I know that somewhere on this website other EMF messages refer to finding basically all of the knowledge already being presented by other teachers with the only difference being the wording.) You could show her examples from other sources of the same the physics, UFO's information, conspiracy theories, etc., to worldwide catastrophes. Eliz Prophet's school was a great example - UG's, food storage, doomsday.

Ask her to be patient with you and try to understand your "confusion" at how this sacred information could have possibly been around prior to Ramtha's introduction of it. Ask her how all of these other sources could have possibly gotten this information. Play it a little dumb -- tell her you just want to understand because you are genuinely confused.

Maybe when she sees that you are sincere she will be open to hearing that nothing new is being presented at RSE, that this same "sacred knowledge" she is being taught is already available through many sources on YouTube and through other sources, it might cause her to ponder the veracity of Ramtha's word. This might be a good way to plant a seed of doubt.

I think the approach I suggested to you might have worked for me if my husband or family had brought this information to my attention. Seeds of doubt might have been planted, and even though I would have initially resisted, there would have been a "crack" in my belief system into which more objective knowledge and questions could have been born.

You will most likely need to appear to relinquish your former view of RSE and humble yourself and ask questions that someone who is thinking about joining the school would ask. You might even want to tell your mother that you are considering attending a beginner's event just to make it appear that you want to align yourself with your mother and family.

These are merely the ideas that came to me. Good luck.

California Dreamin' - I like your idea. I think this plays well on the RSE entwined person's desire to 'convert' others and can very likely be an opening. My mother took this approach with me at times and if nothing else, it allowed us to have calm and intelligent (as far as that was possible from my side...) conversations that engaged me and encouraged me to think somewhat critically. Also, as mentioned before, the impact of such conversations may not be seen for months or years sometimes, so the family member has to be patient.

Also, Tree- something to remember, all the well reasoned arguments my dad brought meant nothing until we had reestablished a degree of trust and rapport. If I had not been convinced of my dad's deep love and concern for me thru all the perceived 'mistakes' and hurt I felt, I would never even have entertained anything he said. I guess from my point of view the two have to go hand in hand.

littlewiseone-
I was only trying to find the things that stuck in your mind the most during the time your parents were trying to get you out.
Your father's reasoning seemed to have stuck out more than the letters.
That's all I was saying.
Just trying to find the most effective approach for/with Ruprecht.

"If I can at least plant a seed of doubt with her, perhaps she will think twice before doing something which even in her surrendered state of mind, she would question the wisdom of it."

In my decades of work with intervention, "seeds of doubt" almost never work because the path of reliable evidence has not been pointed out. Only when you can encourage the cult member to take that critical path and be capable of walking it with them, will any "doubt" seeds begin to grow and take root.

Seeds of doubt are already there in abundance. Cult members by definition are continually fighting with or ignoring their doubts. That is the core principle of effective mind control. One more seed will go unnoticed, believe me, unless the path of evidence and proof has been established. Cult members need solid chunks of reliable earth to nurture their already existing seeds of doubt.

We do not leave a cult without making a free if difficult choice to do it. To make that choice free we need reliable information that can support that choice.

Hope this helps.
Joe

Interesting point, Joe. Could you elaborate on what the 'path of reliable evidence' would be? Thanks!

I think this would mean hard core facts.
Facts of science.
Facts that someone admittedly wrote a book of fiction when, let's say Ramtha said: "I inspired this book (and you all should believe
it and read it over and over)."
Actual facts of how the brain works.
Actual facts of people ascending.