How can I keep my daughter from taking the grand kids to the

How to help if you have family or friends in RSE.
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Sad Grandfather
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How can I keep my daughter from taking the grand kids to the

Unread post by Sad Grandfather »

My daughter recently got indoctrinated into JZ's cult. Since she is obsessive compulsive, she has become totally obsessed! I know there is nothing I can do to change her mind, but do any of you know a way to keep her from taking her kids to brainwashing sessions, as well? As I see it, my son-in-law may be the only way, but he has always "gone along to get along" and I don't know how to get him to say, "enough is enough". I have only recently gotten him into discussion, so I am still hoping. He went to a "boot camp" (their words, not mine), and he went with them. He said he sees some value in it, but isn't a "convert". He says he won't go back to this next session. The more I read on the web, the more concerned I become.

By the way, I am not a hard core religious nut bent on saving them from Hell, but am more concerned about them ending up in a hell on earth, after the family's resources and the kids college money is blown on plane tickets and "class" fees, and the kids end up screwed up for life, by the brainwashing.
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!
Whatchamacallit
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit »

Sad G,

I'll think about what you're looking to do, and get back to you. I don't have a quick and easy answer but it's a difficult situation. Especially with an OCD daughter. If you talked to her about this site, and the contents of it, to "warn" her, she likely won't listen. But, perhaps you can tell her she risks the near certainty of her children being exposed to repeated abusive behavior. It would be good if you were there, so as a witness to the sexual talk, threats, ridicule and verbal/emotional abuse in particular, of a wine ceremony, that you could contact child protective services about it. That's extreme, but it might be necessary. Or, just call protective services and talk to them about your options. It's documented that what I've mentioned, has gone on.
tree
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Unread post by tree »

If you can PM Marie, she might be a really good source.
Marie has a mother and sister in the school and has been dealing with this issue for some time.

Keep posting your thoughts.

For me, I brought my son up in the school since age 1 (ack!!! hindsight is 20/20).

At my exit counseling (documented under "To all prospective students...." from the earlier version of EMF)
my very first question was: how did my son being raised around a cult (JZ does not think it is a cult because students do not live
on the premises) affect him?
Joe Sz's answer was : by the time a cult born child becomes 13 or 14, they usually have the eyes to see the group for what it is.
And they opt to leave. My son chose not to go to anymore events since the age of 13.

My son, who is now 21, hangs out with about 15-20 young people, in that age group, MOST of whom's parents still attend RSE. These children, thank god, figured it out before the parents did.
Of the 20 kids, I think I am the only adult who has seen her way out of RSE. The rest of the parents are currently hell bent on saving the school (because of this website, David, and myself. RSE students think we are targeting RSE to be shut down-which is NOT the case; and building UG's.)
There are just a very few of the friends in my son's age group who have had no affiliation with RSE.

In fact, Greg Simmons' son, the marketing director of RSE and one of the main teachers, is a part of this group of young people.
in regards to his father, Greg's son just remarks: "Whatever makes my dad happy........"
Two of the young people in this group: their mother commited suicide while she was still in RSE school.
One of the young people in this group: her father had a heart attack at the Ranch. Prior to that, JZR excalimed : NO ONE HAS EVER DIED IN MY AUDIENCE!! Great! We would all go to events knowing we would be protected from death.
Tell that to a 15 year old girl. And Her father had a GREAT respect amongst these kids because he was not fanatical and
he solidly did his disciplines every single day.
One young man, his mother has suffered extreme poisoning from the Sea-11 fiasco. She is on permanent disability.
Then there is me, who is diagnosed with PTSD, borderline, and agoraphobia from my entire experience at RSE.

Just sharing my experience and affects of such a group.
The husband seems to have the most going for him in regards to his "critical thinking" skills.
I would go that route.
Show him this post.
Go from there.

Sincerely,
Tree
See&E
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Alternative Choices

Unread post by See&E »

Dear Sad Grandfather,

Perhaps you and/or your son-in-law might get results by providing the opportunity for the grandkids to have other options presented to them. This works really well if they have other friends, or kids about their own age (or a little older) that can offer to do fun things with them. Depending on their ages, the actual activities will vary, but never underestimate "the freedom to choose known as free will" especially from wonderful children of any age.

Instead of the days, nights, week having to sit, be still, and do disciplines... anything that the other kids are doing will likely be their natural preference.

Just an idea that certainly they will discover by the time they become teenagers (on their own).
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David McCarthy
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Unread post by David McCarthy »

Sad Grandfather,
Welcome and thank you for posting.

For those newly caught in the R$E trap..
it?s important to try and understand the psychology of what is going on in their hearts and minds,
as well as researching how cult leaders operate within our society and their methods of recruitment,
the law..the media, and how to be pro active in exposing the "Cults in our neighborhood"....!

RSE hijacks a person?s reasoning powers without them even knowing what took place?
It's a tragedy that most of the people drawn into a cult such as RSE are idealistic, smart and caring..
who are oblivious to the true nature of the trap they are falling into..
with the RSE roadshow and ?ramtha's? colorful performance and clever dialogues, they are bamboozled and seduced by a brilliant "smoke and mirror" deception..
performed by Judith and her stooges.
For your daughter..it will be inconceivable that someone is capable of faking such a performance
and orchestrating such a huge scale of a betrayal of the human spirit.
She will believe in all sincerely.. that miracles and magical powers are performed at RSE and are attainable by her.. IF.. she participates and pays her fees,
That somehow with all her ?Sincerity?, sacrifice and dedication to the "Great Work"..... this will be some kind of protection from harm.
She will believe that "Ramtha".. is an all knowing and loving God..! a fatherly figure and spiritual teacher with supernatural powers,
a ?Christ" no less, a personal trainer, teacher and protector, who knows her innermost soul..
Nothing could be further from the truth....

RSE members are indoctrinated into believing that the world.. our society, religions, and their families are against them,
who will attempt to hold them back from their true path to "Godhood" and enlightenment.
They will be worried about saving the lives of families and friends from the doomsday predictions..
They may become paranoid and frightened by all the conspiracies and secret teachings and decide to move to Yelm
where they have been taugh it is a "protected area", oftentimes leaving behind bewildered family members, broken homes, friendships and businesses.
"the ends justify the means" mentality...without any accountabilty to the means or the ends... blindsides ethics and feeds the destructive nature and hypocracy of RSE, yet... it serves very well in filling Judiths coffers.
For an outsider or family members to even begin to challenge this magnitude of a delusion and deception head on, is a lost cause,
that may even drive the RSE poison in deeper.
But?. educating yourself on the nature of cults such as RSE, and the constant love you share with your daughter and grandchildren
will outshine and outlast the RSE madness, and be a guiding light to everyone?.

Tread gently.. ?
We are here for you..

David.
Another Dimension60
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Unread post by Another Dimension60 »

David - your response/reply to Grandfather is awesomely beautiful - you've perfectly summarized the ramtha/cult journey - your heart and mind have sung the song of all our souls once/still lost in the mire of JZs mind.
Thank you.
Whatchamacallit
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit »

Yeah, David ! Succinctly summarized, so I can't add anything to that description !

Everyone has had helpful information to share, Sad Grandfather.

Unfortunately, you have a complex situation to deal with. I do agree with Tree, that the son-in-law may be the ticket to any sort of intervention...perhaps the easiest avenue.

Take one day at a time. Really.
journeythroughramthaland
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well said

Unread post by journeythroughramthaland »

"RSE hijacks a person?s reasoning powers without them even knowing what took place?
It's a tragedy that most of the people drawn into a cult such as RSE are idealistic, smart and caring..
who are oblivious to the true nature of the trap they are falling into..
with the RSE roadshow and ?ramtha's? colorful performance and clever dialogues, they are bamboozled and seduced by a brilliant "smoke and mirror" deception..
performed by Judith and her stooges. "

How succinct and perceptive. I agree wholeheartedly.

The point of the tragedy that often goes unmentioned or glanced over is so true. Most of them are the original non conformists.

JZ and crew uses this trait against them while providing them with orchestrated experiences in return. Virtually no one would knowingly agree to this. Her way of doing this has and continues to be a bold theft in my observation.

I heard someone the other night, they were either speaking about a con or abusive relationship and the context was the theft, what had been taken and in describing how deep it was and why, the person said something to the effect " When a burglar comes in your house he does so with stealth, he is ashamed, masked, he does not want to get caught. In this type of person, when they are caught red handed, they just smile and deny and claim that they themselves are the true victims."

On top of that I might add it is much like taking candy from a baby. One simply offers a larger candy in trade.
"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."
-William Mizner
ordinarymind
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Unread post by ordinarymind »

David McCarthy wrote:She will believe that "Ramtha".. is an all knowing and loving God..! a fatherly figure and spiritual teacher with supernatural powers,
a ?Christ" no less, a personal trainer, teacher and protector, who knows her innermost soul..
Nothing could be further from the truth....David.
Yes, David, your email captures the RSE experience exactly, from my perspective. The above quote especially rings true for me ...this belief was what ensnared me into RSE in the first place and kept me going faithfully for 15 years.

My belief that Ramtha was an all knowing and loving God was unshakeable. I believed it when he told us he "knew" the story of creation because he had seen it. I believed it when he said he was sitting by his fire dreaming the days of today into existence. I believed it when he said he saw the whole picture and that my mind was much too limited to grasp it all.

My good friend, who eventually helped me find a way out, tried for years to challenge my beliefs about Ramtha ...she suggested I take a look at other teachers, look into Buddhism, listen to some tapes by others ...but I, almost condescendingly, insisted that Ramtha had the full picture, so why would I seek out or listen to a "lesser" teacher. I still remember how elated I felt at one event when Ramtha said "once you have found your teacher, he will never leave you" ..and he looked straight at me since I was sitting close to the front ...he saw that I was moved by that and nodded and said it again .....how thrilled I was at that thought ..that Ramtha would be my teacher forever.

And so, Sad Grandfather, as you can see, the snare is very carefully and caluculatedly set, as others have suggested. And it's not that there aren't a whole bunch of red flags along the way . .there are . . .I had them, I just discounted them and explained them away, after all, Ramtha was "enlightened" and I was just beginning to "wake up" so what could I possibly know.

I don't know how long it would have taken for me to set myself free if my friend hadn't shown me this site and I hadn't read stories here that others have bravely posted about their shocking experiences and their doubts. I am so grateful for this site and for those who take the risk to post.
journeythroughramthaland
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rea$ons why

Unread post by journeythroughramthaland »

" I still remember how elated I felt at one event when Ramtha said "once you have found your teacher, he will never leave you" ..and he looked straight at me since I was sitting close to the front ...he saw that I was moved by that and nodded and said it again .....how thrilled I was at that thought ..that Ramtha would be my teacher forever."

Ordinarymind,

This quote reminds me of the time when I was 13 and working part time in a New York deli. A couple of people came in at the same time, one person wanted a coffee and a butter roll and the other wanted a hero sandwich. I served the guy with the hero and the other person left. When I was finished the store owner asked me why I had done so and I told him because the hero cost more and would make more money.

He then explained to me how the guy with the coffee and butter roll comes in 2 times a day, every day and could get his coffee and butter roll elsewhere , so I should not view him as anything less then a $500 bill.

In JZ's case the nod and repeat was a smart move because she too understands the value of members (monetary that is!)
"I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education."
-William Mizner
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Sad Grandfather
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Unread post by Sad Grandfather »

Thanks to all of you for your insights. My son-in-law says he doesn't see that big a problem with it, and sees it as just another of her obsessions, which will just go away, in time. He said she charged everything to her credit card, and he didn't even know what it cost. She has always taken care of the finances for the family and the business, since I stopped doing it about 10 years ago. I suggested he might want to find out before he and his business are in bankruptcy. My biggest concern is for the kids, but he says he thinks its just a fun outing for them and they're not treating it like a religion. I certainly hope he is right, but am much more concerned than he is. She and the kids are leaving shortly for another session. He wants to wait and try to talk to her, when she returns, as there will be a 2 month break before the one in October.

I'm too old and decrept to even consider doing such a thing, but an interesting experiment would be to blow CZ's brains out, while she was purporting to be Ramtha. Would Ramtha stop the bullet?? Would he be seen rising from her corpse? If nothing profound happened (other than her brain getting splattered), would the people under her control, see her as just the mortal con artist, she is, or would she become a martyr and be worshipped in absentia??

Those are purely hypothetical questions. Do any of you with experience care to comment??
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!
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G2G
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Unread post by G2G »

David writes:

""RSE hijacks a person?s reasoning powers without them even knowing what took place?
It's a tragedy that most of the people drawn into a cult such as RSE are idealistic, smart and caring..
who are oblivious to the true nature of the trap they are falling into..
with the RSE roadshow and ?ramtha's? colorful performance and clever dialogues, they are bamboozled and seduced by a brilliant "smoke and mirror" deception..
performed by Judith and her stooges. ""

David, I found your post to be remarkable in its description of what occurs for so many at a simple beginner's event. My beginner's was one of the last of the nine-day events. I remember, sitting in that astro-turf ex-horse arena, to "just for the time you are here - keep an open mind" - forget about what you knew - just for that time. What occurs is people then experience the "smoke and mirrors," somehow find their cards or get remote views of flowers and butterflies - and it is done. They don't "resume" their critical-thinking mind. All one can think of is returning to this "wonderful" place so they learn more and don't fall behind. Then, after these beginner's events and follow-ups, perhaps the red flags appear. Many shake this off, but this is exactly when it's time to sit and think about it. One thing, so many had been indoctrinated into organized religion and all of its stories. We wanted a "free" mind. So we "opened" our minds. Then when it became "polluted" while open, we didn't do a "look-see" because we were so enamored with what we'd experienced, the new friends we made, and the highs of what, at that time, seemed to be a huge party and reunion of "kindred souls." We opened our minds and allowed jzk's teachings to pour in, and then we closed our minds off to what was "before" RSE. We didn't look back at just what we heard and how strange it all was - we were much too "high." And that's what we remembered about the first experience, and then went back.

Once the red flags appear, that's when we should have stopped, allowed ourselves to "think" for ourselves and look at it all from a realistic perspective. Maybe Sad Grandfather can, through his son-in-law, see if there are any "red flags" or things his daughter was a little "iffy" over. I know my partners and I were "iffy" at our beginner's - but we still were riding the "high" of the experience - loud music, wine, new friendships with people who were "open minded" like ourselves. Well, jrk asks you to open that mind, fills it with what she wants US to think, and then we close the mind with all of the garbage inside.

It's a real trip, indeed.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972
Whatchamacallit
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit »

Sad Grandfather said, "I'm too old and decrept to even consider doing such a thing, but an interesting experiment would be to blow CZ's brains out, while she was purporting to be Ramtha. Would Ramtha stop the bullet?? Would he be seen rising from her corpse? If nothing profound happened (other than her brain getting splattered), would the people under her control, see her as just the mortal con artist, she is, or would she become a martyr and be worshipped in absentia?? "

Sad,

First of all, I understand that you are asking such a question to make a point, not a threat.

That said, I will answer with this, to which other ex-students can certainly chime in to agree/disagree.

1) Ramtha could not have that situation occur, because he isn't holding that Reality in his frontal lobe, therefore it can't manifest for him.

2) If it did happen to him, it would be because he magnetized the experience to him, therefore he should get the greater good - the purposeful good, from the experience.

Yes, this is illogical and just plain WRONG thinking. It is the same thinking that allows a Ramster to accept that every single living being from pre-birth to old age, DESERVED to die in the Indian Ocean tsunami. Because they were too STUPID (not My words, but a quote from JZR) to know that the tsunami was coming, and get the heck outta Dodge beforehand, they deserved their deaths because their intuition didn't speak to them and/or they didn't listen.

This sort of logic would then also hold for every human being of any age, who gets any sort of challenge in their life: fatal illness, abusive relationships, stillbirth babies, SIDS, deformed or otherwise challenged newborns, losing a child in the military to war, losing someone to poverty, etc., etc. Every level of big/small painful life experiences and challenges, according to RSE, is brought into your life by your own electromagnetic self. Magnetized these things to you FOR THE EXPERIENCE. There are plenty of people who if they could, would consciously say, "NO THANKS!!" and let their challenges be gone forever, if they really had that power. They don't.

RSE teaches people that they themselves, control EVERYTHING. So, if Ramtha is verbally abusive to them in audience, they deserved it ? NOT. As is more likely the case, JZR can't/won't control him/herself and exercise respect, restraint, etc., toward another human being. It's sick. And sad.

As far as son-in-law, since he's planning to talk to her later on, during the two months off, perhaps now is a good time for YOU to go through this website forum, as well as the old one, and make a list of the major things that are wrong there, that he can use to speak to her. Also, to wake him up further, to t he sorts of things his c hildren will be exposed to. It's not pretty.

The topics on these threads (don't forget the old webforum, too), give major clues to what's wrong. Within them are details. Perhaps some of the topics would be more helpful to your cause, than others, so that you can read the details in the topics that you might benefit from. Stated shortly, make a real LIST of questions or comments. It might help.
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Unread post by Whatchamacallit »

Sad G,

G2G makes a good point, too. Don't try to "talk" to any of them RIGHT after an event !!! They will be high as a kite. Wait at least two weeks and just LISTEN. Then, the high will start to fade, and take the opportunities you get...or create some, to talk.
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Sad Grandfather
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She (and the grandkids) are on their way.

Unread post by Sad Grandfather »

Thanks for all the good input. Your insight has helped me understand how she got to where she is, but I'm afraid only time will get them out.

It is about finalized. I talked to my son-in-law, yesterday, and my daughter is taking my only grandchildren, Boy 18 and Girl 14, going to the big ramtha conference in Yelm, and is planning to stay, leaving my son-in-law to sell his business and join them there. She thinks he will be joining them in a couple of months, even though he has had the business on the market for a year. We discussed, with the economy like it is, that it might be years before he can sell it for any price. He is not happy with the situation, but says he has given his blessing to the plan, since that's the only way he could ever see his children again. He knows his son is old enough to make his own decision, and his daughter's desires would be a big factor in any custody battle, so he will just "go along to get along".

I am resigned to the situation, at this point, and will ignore the 'thing' to try to maintain contact with them. I suggested, to son-in-law, that if he does sell all the property, he might consider putting most of the money in an account, here, and give her the rest, telling her that's all he could get. At least that would give them a fallback, when the money is gone. She has never had any concept of "money", and has always spent it like it was in unlimited supply, so if she had to live frugally and ramtha did not manifest funds to suit her lifestyle, she might quickly become disillusioned. That's likely wishful thinking, for now, since she has always favored 4 star hotels, when they'd make a trip, and now is willing to pay the same money to live in a tent, at the cult. I hope son-in-law will take my advice and hold back money. He has a good business to support them, now, but it won't take Nita long to go through the proceeds of a sale if he lets her get access to it, since they will have no income in Yelm.

He says he is 54 and, when he sells the business, he will be retired and has no intention of working on fill in duty in Yelm, and I can't see my daughter flipping burgers at McDonald's. My grandson is very bright and is to start college, next year, so I hope that will take him away from the influence enough to get his mind back. My grand daughter is in 9th grade, this year, and has been home schooled since 2nd grade, so she is totally controlled by her mother, and I understand they have a 'school' for the kids, on the compound, so I guess she will be going there. I hear the 'school' even has a course in Quantum Physics! I hear a former high school counselor is 'teaching' it.

When I asked son-in-law, a couple of months ago, how she could believe all this stuff, he said she is nearing 50, her mother has Alzheimer's and she may have the gene, and ramtha promises that she can overcome age, affliction and death, so she thinks she has found a solution to everything and heaven on earth. I have now studied ramtha enough, and know her well enough, that I am getting to understand the thought processes that have gotten her into this. At this point, the only thing I can see, which could let her escape is, after enough time, when the money runs out, and things continue to worsen, with none of Judy's promises coming to pass, she may see the light. At that time, I would not be surprised, if she kills herself, rather than face reality again, but can only hope the kids can overcome it.

I am afraid my wife and I won't live to see that, but we can hope! Sorry to keep burdening you with all this. I appreciate all your concern and advice, but for now, it's out of our hands and only time will tell how long it may take, or what the outcome may be. I will let you know if things get better.

Thanks for all your help.
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G2G
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Unread post by G2G »

Oh Sad Grandfather, my heart goes out to you. Do you feel the kids really wish to go, or are just going along with their mother? The 18 yr. old going to college, will have other things to do. But the young girl - still a minor - I do know certain states have grandparent visitation rights. How do your grandchildren feel about the move, and possibly not seeing you or their grandmother again? Perhaps your daughter is thinking she can "heal" her mother via "blue body." Are you able to discuss your wife's condition with your daughter without the RSE issue creeping into the conversation?

I have seen some parents behave in a very nasty way to their teens. One 13 yr. old next to me once, had a cold and sore throat, and the weather was very cold, raining and slick mud covered the field. The daughter came back inside (I stayed inside because I had a fever and took THAT decision into my own hands, at least that time). The young girl came in alone and wrapped herself up in her sleeping bag, and fell asleep on the floor. Soon, her mother comes inside, stomping and snarling to her young daughter, "YOU QUIT!" The poor child said, "mom, I feel sick." The mom again, "don't tell me that. YOU QUIT!" I thought to myself, how abusive this was, how could parent not even say, oh honey, let me check out your throat, see if you have a fever, or anything along that line. All this mom could do was accuse her sick, young teen daughter of "quitting." So, I wonder just where the 16 yr. old and 18 yr. old fit in here. Are they as gung ho as your daughter? You might have some hope with the children, especially when the father is remaining behind and once out there, who knows - if the business doesn't sell, your daughter just might turn on him. The other part, your daughter is going to have to get used to living like a pauper, since Yelm isn't a hotspot for jobs. How long will the "nightmare" carry her? I don't know. I didn't move to Yelm, THANK GOD! Also, do they have a place to stay out there? If so, what type of privacy will the 16 yr. old girl have? That's an age when girls are very much into their privacy. Maybe your daughter has lost her critical thinking, but perhaps the kids haven't. Good luck.
"I never really understood religion - it just seemed a good excuse to give" - Ten Years After circa 1972
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Sad Grandfather
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Unread post by Sad Grandfather »

The boy is 18 and, if he can get away to college, I hope he can get his head straight. The girl is 14, and has been homeschooled since 2nd grade, is very shy and retiring, so I'm afraid, is totally controllrd by her mother. I am in contact with the boy, by occasional email, but the only time I mentioned Yelm to him, he said I had agreed not to talk about that with his mother and he thought it best that we not talk about it either, so I dropped it.

The accomodations, for now, will likely be Donna's boarding house. The kids have been with her 3 times, but after a couple of months in the boarding house the kids patience could wear thin, especially if they watch their mother get drunk with Donna every night. I asked my daughter, after she told me about Donna, what kind of testimonial for the school was a student of 30 years, who is a messed up drunk?? She said, haughtily, that even though she had only been there a few months, that she was far ahead of Donna. She has always been protective of her kids, so I don't think she could abuse them, but in her state, who knows.

The money thing is my best bet for getting her to face reality. She has always spent money as if there was an inexhaustible supply, and her husbands business has supported her spending, but if he sells it, the money can't last long, especially if he takes my advice and keeps back most of it. I can only hope he is smart enough to do that.
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!
tree
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Unread post by tree »

Sad Grandfather-
I can tell you from personal experience, the daughter will get accustomed to Yelm life
very easily. She will not care what it takes to be near the school.
I would STRONGLY advise her husband to hold money back- or it will all be spent
on RSE, the "Children's School of Excellence" (that is at least $400 /month for the private
schooling of the granddaughter).
She will learn to adjust to living in squandoring conditions all in the name of healing herself,
living for 200 years or forever and "manifesting fabulous wealth"
(which she would consider from her husband a "manifestation" if he gives
in. OF course, SHE would have created that. Well, tell her to get off her
a$$ and create the money herself!!)
I can tell by your description of her, you are right on about her most likely path.
The 14 yr old may or may not "get it" by the time she is 20.
Nearly ALL of the children that go through RSE, minus one, in all these years, and I would number
that near the couple hundred mark, figure out RSE by the time they are 20.
The son should turn around a bit faster in college.

My heart really really goes out to you.

IF, and when your daughter ever leaves the group, the trip will be very very long and arduous with
the given genes and pre-disposition she has mentally, but at least she would be out.

Please continute to keep us posted about your situation.
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Sad Grandfather
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:18 pm
Location: Joe Reeves, Carthage, Mississippi http://joesue.com/
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Unread post by Sad Grandfather »

Thanks for the input. I'll try to get this to my son-in-law, when I can do so and know my daughter won't read it and become defensive with both of us.
Down with Judith Hampton Knight!
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