The EnlightenMeFree (EMF) Online Debate Forum

Merry Holiday greetings to all!

Since leaving rse I would have to say that I pretty much identify myself as an atheist. Of course, we all know the importance of the Christ-in-Mass holiday in rse and I am not ashamed to admit that it is a holiday I very much enjoy. I've also done a bit of soul searching as to how I want to now identify with this holiday. Last year we decided not to send any presents to our families (partly out of lack of funds and partly out of the desire to boycott the holiday). In the end, I hated not having the joy of hearing whether the presents I sent were a hit or not and decided that the whole gift giving thing is just too much fun to pass up. Besides, I also have a young child, and no matter how often I tell her that Santa is just a guy dressed in a suit and that no one will ever come down our chimney without our permission (yikes!), she fervently believes in the jolly old man... So I guess I've given up trying to ruin her fun (amazing how powerful the drive to want to believe is...).

Anyway, this year I went all out and have thrown caution to the wind and even freely wish most people 'Merry Christmas' (gasp) and you bet I've spent too much money on presents! Still, I wanted to pass along this link in case others are similarly confused over this time of year and offer up an alternative (disclaimer: I am not advocating any 'one belief' here....).

Here are a group of people who celebrate Newton's birthday:

http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/h ... pness.html

Apparently, according to the old calendar, Newton's birthday falls on Dec. 25th (what luck!). I quite like the symbolism used but also have nothing against the simple idea that the holiday is just about sharing time with loved ones, expressing our love thru gifts, stuffing ourselves with good food, having a valid excuse for overeating chocolate and being thoughtful about the good things in life and reaching out to others who are perhaps less fortunate. Now I will also argue that this spirit would best be in our hearts at any time of year (ok, minus the chocolate part.... darn!).

So, may your holiday be merry and your new year be bright, filled with peace and contentment and good health and all that.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!

:)

here's another column that explains the calendar discrepancy, also includes an alternate version of the '12 days of Christmas'.

http://judson.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12 ... of-newton/

I personally don't see why it has to be anyone's birthday that gets celebrated... chocolate is good enough for me, what's wrong with chocolate anyway??

happy whatever to you all too...
littlewiseone points to Newton's birthday but Newton was "religious" and Christian despite his denial of the trinity and various other church doctrines. Most of his adult life he privately pursued alchemy and believed in the potential of "sympathetic" forces beyond gravity. A mysterious fire [that he may have set] burnt all his alchemical research in his lab. see my review of a bio on Newton:
http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/isaacnewton.htm

You also might get a kick out of this speculative essay about christmas, a mushroom and santa:
http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/bolondgomba.htm

By choosing to overlay the pagan solstice celebration with the birth of Christ, the Church actually valorized the universal aspect of this season and the deeper meaning of rebirth and resurrection. Otherwise much of all that old religion may have been diffused into less significance in the modern age.

All my family enjoys the gift exchanges---hope you all enjoy the day no matter what.
Joe

Thank you littlewiseone....

I also have a young child, and no matter how often I tell her that Santa is just a guy dressed in a suit and that no one will ever come down our chimney without our permission (yikes!), she fervently believes in the jolly old man... So I guess I've given up trying to ruin her fun (amazing how powerful the drive to want to believe is...).

I'm with you on this one littlewiseone.

"As JTRL would say "Some very salient points..........

I will reply in more depth during the chocolatemas holidays,
but for now, I will add this much..
What if he does exist??. Santa that is...
Can you prove to me that he does not exist?
I rest my case.

So.... I'm setting up the video camera tonight...perhaps I will catch Santa doing his thing?
If he is real and willing.. Perhaps he will do an exclusive LARSE interview?
I have some very challenging questions from my childhood to ask him.



David.

David... I think your chances of scoring an interview with Santa are about as good as getting an interview with ramtha...

Joe, I will check out those links. I was thinking today, what would be the point of celebrating Newton's birthday? I mean, he lived barely 400 years ago, certainly the earth has been around far longer than that. What could we celebrate then? The big bang? My husband informs me it would be impossible to pinpoint an anniversary for the big bang, since there was no such thing as time at that point in time (pun intended). Regardless, I believe there is value in celebrating the spirit of Christmas, whatever we choose to call it.

Not sure if you can tell I've had a drink or two tonight...
Happy day!

Since leaving rse I would have to say that I pretty much identify myself as an atheist.

this is about where I am at the moment.

as a side note, since last Christmas was my first Christmas out and it was such a rough time,
I never went into my Christmas decorations.
So, this past week, I attacked the box with much vigor as I was/am actually happy to fully participate
this year. The decorating of the tree was still interesting as I pulled out small RSE stockings I had hand made,
angels as depicted on the Assay IV (number 2) t-shrit, blue stars, etc
Although I was not as reactive as I was last year, I still felt some
"heebie-jeebies" with a few items.
Playing Christmas music was also interesting, but I figured, most of those songs had their own validity long
before jz used them for her own agenda and purpose at the ranch, so, I am still working through a few songs,
but MUCH better than last year.

I am in the absolute spirit to wish people a Merry Christmas, even though the politically correct thing is to say
"happy holiday!"

So, best wishes to everyone and may you spend it in a loving, happy atmosphere!!

Merry Christmas!

If this offends you, get a life! If you'd like to respond with
Happy Hollidays
OR
Happy Kwanza!
OR
Happy Hannuka
OR
See you in Hell!
That is your right, and I won't be offended.

I am sitting here with my wife thinking of my daughter and grandchildren, spending Christmas with Judy Knight.
This is the first time since we were married, 52 years ago, today, even through 10 years active military duty, that we have not spent Christmas with family.

Personal to Judy Knight (via her spies): You have run your SCAM for over 30 years. You have made yourself wealthy at the expense of those who fell for your phony god and line of BS. You have stolen livihoods, minds and lives. I don't know if there is a hell, but I fervently pray that one can be created just for you and that you will get there sooner, rather than later! I hope you ---moderator edit--- and the sooner the better, before you create any new victims. Merry Christmas! If that offends you, sue me!!

Merry Christmas everyone.

Sitting here this morning reading some of you posts,I went back to visit (like I always do every years) the Christmas of my Childhood.
The day before Christmas my mother an older sisters will be putting the final touch on the preparation for the Magical night,Food decoration would get up and the spirit of Christmas would be every where.
That night us little one will go to bed very early to be rested for the festivity and celebration we would fall asleep with all of the busell going on in the house.The adult would go to Midnight Mass,leaving one behind to stay with us,the house would become silence with only the smell of wonderful food, During that time SANTA would come to deliver all of the presents , the aldult would get back home the house would strat bussing again an we would wake up with all the Present under the Tree.(no present was put under the Tree before that night the natvity scene would be there instead) All the food would be brought out the table would be full and we would eat before gathering around the Tree for the distribution of the presents after all the presents had been open my father would get up ask for silence Thank God for all his blessing
and SANTA to have Brought all the Present.
What ever Santa existe or not has never been a concern to me, I am so GREATFUL to my Parents to have let me Belived in the Magic of it all Including SANTA.
What ever each Parents now chose to tell there Children about Chritmas it up to them.
But I will tell you this My belive in The Magic of Christmas has never hurt me,did not need deprogamation or consoling for it an still have all of the beautiful Memory to enjoy to this day an all my Christmas to come.
Merry Christmas everyone
Oldone

Sad,

OUCH!!!!!!!
I wish you a new year which brings you closer to your family!!


Did I hear someone say Santa was bringing mushrooms this year!!!!!??

Best to all

I can recall some of the legends of Kris Kringle, Santa Claus, etc. "Santa" means Saint. But who was it that coined the name "Santa?" Was this a "diabolical" scheme to take our minds off "Jesus?"

When superimposing the letters in Santa we get the word "Satan." I wonder if this character was conjured up to replace the true meaning of Christmas...the birth of Jesus Christ...The Holy Family...the exchanging of gifts (leading to consumerism). When we celebrate "our" birthdays, we receive gifts. Why do we receive gifts on Jesus' Birthday? Shouldn't we be giving Him gifts? Creating a character like Santa=Satan seems like a malicious attempt to play down the true meaning of Christmas. Unfortunately, it worked! :(

Being the eldest of 3 girls & my Dad being a coal miner & steel mill worker at the same time, we were always strapped for money with the many layoffs & strikes. Our gifts to one another were simple. We would write an IOU to each other. Me being 6 yrs. old & my first sister just being born, I wrote to my Mom: I promise to help you take care of (sister's name). To my Dad I wrote: I promise to learn to run as fast as you. My parents did get me a baby doll for Christmas but I ruined the surprise by entering the living room before they had a chance to wrap the doll & they hid it on the couch & covered it so I wouldn't see it. Well, I sat down on the couch, right on top of the baby doll & saw it. I was so excited b/c I thanked my parents for giving me baby Jesus for Christmas & I put the baby doll inside the large nativity. Over the years, consumerism entered our family when my youngest sister was born when I was 12 yrs. old.

Christmas is a time to rejoice but instead we see people going into debt, being depressed, committing suicide. I hear people all around me saying, "I can't wait for Christmas to be over." People have been brainwashed into believing just what the retailers count on..."Gift Giving!"

When I need shoes, jeans, etc., I buy them when I need them & don't wait to get them for Christmas. I do give gifts of money to nieces & nephews for college, rent, etc. Grocery & gas certificates & other useful items to other family members. I'd received a sample of a new perfume in the mail & after using it for a month, I really loved it but didn't need it. My husband saved the empty sample & took it to a department store & bought it for me for Christmas. He said he loved that scent on me & got me a gift we could both enjoy. I buy him pants, shirts & ties for work as he is color blind & can't buy his own clothes!

Even though I'm a non-practicing Catholic, I am a believer of the One True God & I am heartbroken to see people on a buying frenzy, just b/c Santa & the "giving" of gifts has overcome the true meaning of Christmas. Now this is "brainwashing" in my book. Do you agree or disagree?

Wishing everyone the spirit of Christ_mas throughout the year!

I'm not much on conspiracy theories, so I don't think it was a diabolical plot, but a superimposing of different holidays from different cultures. St. Nicholas was from a legend of Norway??, maybe. I guess I could google it. When I was a kid, we also lived frugally, but believed in Santa until we were 8, or so, then pretended to believe, because it was so much fun. We were taught that we were giving gifts to celebrate Jesus' birthday because he gave us the greatest gift, of his life, for our sins. Our gifts were usually an apple or orange, sometimes toothpaste and a tooth brush, which we would have bought anyway, then a board game or whatever. My biggest Christmas ever, while a believer, was when Santa left a tricycle for my brother and me to share.

I do agree that the spirit of Christmas has been twisted to the point that commercialism has taken over and has become a form of entitlement to a lot of todays spoiled kids. I think it started back in the '60s, when some crackpot child psychologist started talking about "oppressing" children by telling them NO, etc. Now there are a lot of kids who, if they don't get everything on their wish list, will actually feel deprived. It's just my theory, but I think the "I want" mentality, taught to children (not only at Christmas), has carried over into adult life, such that, if they don't get exactly what they want, that it is totally unfair so they will leave a marriage abandon kids and even rob and steal to get what they feel they "deserve".

As to the overlapping of traditions, and celebrations, Easter was adopted by Christians to celebrate Jesus rising from the dead, but was originally the festival of Esther, the goddess of life and fertility, which the pagans used as an excuse to engage in all kinds of orgies and sexual excesses. We still have a couple of their symbols, the egg, for the beginning of life and the rabbit, one of the most prolific of all mammals. Hope I didn't ruin another holiday for you.

All that said, I don't see any harm in Santa or the Easter bunny, as long as it is kept in perspective and done as a game to provide some fun for the kids, and doesn't become an entitlement.

Santa is from Saint - as in Nicholas - who, as the story goes, was a priest who gave money to some young women for their dowries....
The Catholic Church tied Jesus' birth to existing spiritual traditions. Throughout time and culture this period of "time" per sun and stars and planets is a Sacred Time - of hope, of Love in the world, of Light. The tradition of 'stockings' evolved from European children leaving their shoes outside full of hay and grain for the eight legged horse of the god Odin... Every aspect of what we call Christmas stems from ancient traditions. The "Devil" didn't corrupt Christmas, Human Beings did. Everywhere, every aspect of our society has lost contact with the Sacred.
Santa Claus isn't evil, nor gifts, nor trees, nor lighted houses - it's the intention that matters.
And I've also been thinking- instead of being caught in travel madness - declare another day of the year to gather with Family with love and Gifts...
And, it wasn't gifts or leaving cookies for Santa Claus that injured me in my youth, but the unspoken pain my Mother carried that tarnished the Spirit of the day. Whether it was family stuff or Judith stuff that has corrupted our perspective of Christmas, it's up to us to 're-invent', re-connect to the true essence of the time... Judith can't own our hearts, it's up to us to open them.
I also agree that Chocolate is an essential Gift - any day of the week!
Blessings to all ---- And what seems to becoming an emf tradition of song... "shower the people you love with love..."

this is what I wrote about santa claus in that freewheeling essay about the Amanita mushroom I mentioned above:
http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/bolondgomba.htm

"Folk legends and myths have a way of changing over time as cultures and generations adapt new images and characters to old stories. Once written down or recorded, the tale becomes a testament, a scripture or a book. Our modern Santa Claus is less than 200 years old and was established by a writer and an artist. ??Twas the Night Before Christmas? appeared as "A Visit from Saint Nicholas" by Clement Clarke Moore who wrote the popular version in 1822. There is a strongly disputed claim that Moore plagiarized his poem from Major Henry Livingston Jr. (1748-1828). In 1860 Thomas Nast immortalized Santa Claus with an illustration for Harper's Weekly and subsequently refined the image of Saint Nicolas after studying Moore?s version of ??Twas the Night Before Christmas.? Artists standardized the modern Santa in a red suit with white fur trim by the 1920s, the Santa illustrations for Coca-Cola Christmas ads from 1931 through 1964 being the most memorable.

Some researchers ponder how a 4rth century Saint Nicholas, a saint who most likely emerged as a composite myth from pre-Christian influences, managed to end up in a red and white suit, live at the North Pole and ride in a sleigh pulled by reindeer with powers of flight? And why the bag? Why the time of winter solstice when the birthday of Christ was never established by the Gospel? Most scholars believe that December 25 is a reasonable date although some place the birth in September. But Santa, St. Nick, is another matter and ?he? appears to be a myth conglomerate that includes the shaman tradition of the Siberian tribes and Lapps. Back to our sacred mushroom: I learned from the websites mentioned below that the dried mushrooms were traditionally brought in a sack, and the shaman entered through a smoke hole by sliding or climbing down a birch pole that held up the typical Siberian yurt.

Santa Claus by name and type is a variation of earlier legends of a saintly gift giver at the winter solstice. In Greek, St. Nicholas is known as Hagios Nikolaos, Bishop of Myra (in the present day Turkey). St. Nicholas reportedly died about 342 C.E. Around 1000 C.E. a St. Nicholas tradition arrived in Russia, and it began to replace the role of the shamans of the nomadic tribes of Siberia. This is when reindeer began their relationship with Nikolai Chudovorits (St. Nicholas). The latter tradition helped to revive Christmas that had nearly died out in Europe due to earlier Papal suppression. Subsequent legends claimed that St. Nick brought gifts to good children and punished the bad ones, sometimes with a switch made from a birch branch. In China he is called Shengdan Laoren. In England where he has a longer coat and a longer beard his name is Father Christmas. In France he's known as Pere Noel. In Morocco he is Black Peter. In Germany, children get presents from Kris Kringle or ChristKindl, the Christ Child, as they do in Hungary from J?zuska. The American Santa is a direct descendant of the Dutch Sint Klaas. This Saint Nick is the merry old elf with red and white clothes, eight flying reindeer, a home located on or near the North Pole, the habit of filling socks or stockings with presents on Christmas Eve, carrying a sack over his shoulder, and the tradition of entering houses through the chimney."

No matter to me how he got here, we are stuck with him as he is now in America, a magical vehicle for capitalism. That is not such a bad thing as long as we keep the spending "real."

Joe

What if he does exist??. .......well on my journies to india i was in the mountains in a ashram.in the first year a friend called me into the teashopp"look what a wonderfull st niclas we have here"there was a guy sitting in the middel of a littel crowd wich could get away as santa.since it was sugested to me he is i put it away as a joke and whatever makes you happy.at the next year i was alone up there most of the other people went to the main ashram for the christmascelebrations.i was sitting in the same teashopp.there he was again comming in.this time i had more time to talk and think.this guy had kind of a monksrobe on.but with a simple belt [not a rope]his robe was also very different to what a saddu might wear.he had feisty cheeks a white beard and glasses his skin was very white .since he had all this western atributs i tried to talk in english which he dident understand[remember st niclas background is turky -russian and most everybody speaks some english in india].so the conversation was in the local hindy dialect.so we had some smalltalk.the atmosphere was very peacefull and impressive.when the guy left.i inquired the teashoppowner.he dident know him.he was no local.he remembered him from last year but he wasent seen in the time between.he showed up and left on foot.so the only box were he fitts in is the st niclas box.

both events happened near christmas.

Optymystic... it was the Christians who overlaid Jesus' birthday onto pagan celebrations of winter solstice to make the new Christian religion more palatable. A little research will prove this out, despite what the USA fundamentalist Christians offer up as "history."

Santa - Satan... c'mon, it's a simple anagram. Here's a little info on the etymology (word origin) of the term Satan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

I understand your choice of religion is Protestant "Jesus Saves" and that's fine. However, it's comments like this that make the Ramsters feel so much superior in their belief system to those enmeshed in religious thought that is equally without critical thinking on the part of believers.

Wakeup said:

Optymystic... it was the Christians who overlaid Jesus' birthday onto pagan celebrations of winter solstice to make the new Christian religion more palatable. A little research will prove this out, despite what the USA fundamentalist Christians offer up as "history."

Santa - Satan... c'mon, it's a simple anagram. Here's a little info on the etymology (word origin) of the term Satan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

I understand your choice of religion is Protestant "Jesus Saves" and that's fine. However, it's comments like this that make the Ramsters feel so much superior in their belief system to those enmeshed in religious thought that is equally without critical thinking on the part of believers.

My religion is the belief in the One True God of Creation. I do not succumb to the brainwashing of organized religions. There is a higher power, non-gender entity, to which I believe.

Why would my comments about "Santa" make the Ramsters feel so much superior in their belief system? How can you be so sure that the "simple anagram" Santa - Satan wasn't a magnificent method of mind control? I think it was a calculated plan. You cannot serve two "Masters." Money or God are the choices. Our belief system has been corrupted by such.

From Wikipedia...Santa...There has long been opposition to teaching children to believe in Santa Claus. Some Christians say the Santa tradition detracts from the religious origins and purpose of Christmas. Other critics feel that Santa Claus is an elaborate lie, and that it is unethical for parents to teach their children to believe in his existence.[6] Still others oppose Santa Claus as a symbol of the commercialization of the Christmas holiday, or as an intrusion upon their own national traditions.[7]

University of Texas at Austin psychology professor Jacqueline Woolley contradicts the notion that a belief in Santa is evidence of the gullibility of children, but evidence that they believe what their parents tell them and society reinforces. According to Woolley:

?The adults they count on to provide reliable information about the world introduce them to Santa. Then his existence is affirmed by friends, books, TV and movies. It is also validated by hard evidence: the half-eaten cookies and empty milk glasses by the tree on Christmas morning. In other words, children do a great job of scientifically evaluating Santa. And adults do a great job of duping them.[42]?

Santa Claus has nothing to do with Christ's birth...the three Wise Men brought gifts to Jesus...Santa did not. It's nothing but folklore. Wonderful poems, stories, songs, etc. have been written & have served to remove Christ from Christmas.

Would it be so harmful to tell your children that Mommy & Daddy buy them their presents for Christmas instead of letting them assume some mythical jolly old man does? Why is this deception necessary? Why do we adults continue to let ourselves be victims of commercialism? Is it we parents that just love to see the faces of our sweet children tearing into massive gifts & thinking about Santa & his reindeer? Has our perception of being "controlled" by outside influences tarnished our own thinking process?

It's every individual's right to choose to give gifts at Christmas. It's also every individual's right to believe in Santa Claus if they so choose. But to continue to make "gift-giving" the main focus of Christmas is abominable. Remember what the true meaning of Christmas is..."Jesus is the Reason for the Season."

Just look & listen to the greetings we receive today: Happy Holidays, Season's Greetings, etc.!

Christmas may as well be called "Jolly Days." Why should we go into debt just to make sure our kids have the latest toy craze & thereby line the pockets of the very companies that have overcharged us & taken away jobs from the United States which has thrown us into great economic turmoil?

Let's break this cycle of mandatory "gift-giving" & choose to do good deeds & help to put food & clothing on the backs of children in our own country. Poverty is all around us, you don't have to see starving children in other countries. The United States of America has children living in rat-infested homes, on the streets, starving, being driven to drug addiction to escape their plight. Thousands of American children suffering from illnesses & never getting the medical attention they need.

Let us start a new holiday...Children of God Day! Give a needy child food, a blanket, shelter & not an iPod.

My wish for 2009 is "Peace on Earth, Goodwill to Man."

I understand your choice of religion is Protestant "Jesus Saves" and that's fine. However, it's comments like this that make the Ramsters feel so much superior in their belief system to those enmeshed in religious thought that is equally without critical thinking on the part of believers.

From my experience, so far, you don't have to be a blind follower of some other religion for the Ramsters to "feel so much superior". My daughter has flatly referred to me as "ignorant", with a condescending air, rather than anger. I am, maybe, the worlds greatest skeptic, but of course, none of the ramtha teaching involves "faith" but has all been PROVEN by "science".

My religion is the belief in the One True God of Creation. I do not succumb to the brainwashing of organized religions. There is a higher power, non-gender entity, to which I believe.

I believe in th one true God of "creation", also, since it makes more sense that there is a Controlling Power of the infinite universe, than that it all just happened! Of course, the concept of "creation" becomes a bit meaningless, if you believe the universe is infinite, not only in space, but in "time", then there was no "beginning" and ther will be no "end". I have read one theory that makes some sense, to me, that, to God, there is no such thing as "time", since it was an invention of man to describe our very finite existance.

How can you be so sure that the "simple anagram" Santa - Satan wasn't a magnificent method of mind control? I think it was a calculated plan. You cannot serve two "Masters." Money or God are the choices. Our belief system has been corrupted by such.

We can't be "sure" of anything, pro or con, unless we choose to accept it on "faith", as memtioned above. If believing Santa is Satan makes you feel better, then go for it, BUT, if you start feeling your beliefs and, by association, your thoughts (and you) are superior to others, then what would make you different from the Ramsters??

From Wikipedia...Santa...There has long been opposition to teaching children to believe in Santa Claus. Some Christians say the Santa tradition detracts from the religious origins and purpose of Christmas. Other critics feel that Santa Claus is an elaborate lie, and that it is unethical for parents to teach their children to believe in his existence.[6] Still others oppose Santa Claus as a symbol of the commercialization of the Christmas holiday, or as an intrusion upon their own national traditions.[7]

University of Texas at Austin psychology professor Jacqueline Woolley contradicts the notion that a belief in Santa is evidence of the gullibility of children, but evidence that they believe what their parents tell them and society reinforces. According to Woolley:

?The adults they count on to provide reliable information about the world introduce them to Santa. Then his existence is affirmed by friends, books, TV and movies. It is also validated by hard evidence: the half-eaten cookies and empty milk glasses by the tree on Christmas morning. In other words, children do a great job of scientifically evaluating Santa. And adults do a great job of duping them.[42]? [/quote]

Kids have active imaginations, and actually enjoy believing in Santa, the Easter bunny, the tooth fairy, fairies in general, Red Riding Hood and Alice in Wonderland. I see no harm in allowing them there fantasies, but if adults start pushing it on them and force feeding them the ideas (be it Santa or any other "faith" based concepts), what makes them any different from Judy Knight or Jim Jones??

Santa Claus has nothing to do with Christ's birth...the three Wise Men brought gifts to Jesus...Santa did not. It's nothing but folklore. Wonderful poems, stories, songs, etc. have been written & have served to remove Christ from Christmas.

I understand that it you take the accuracy and infallability of the Bible, on faith, that you would believe in this conspiracy, but in the end, there is no more proof for belief in the three Wise Men, the shepards, etc, than in ramtha, or even Santa. Everyone has a right to their own beliefs, and if they provide you peace and comfort, that is great, but if you start feeling "superior" because of those beliefs, then what makes you different from the Ramsters??

Would it be so harmful to tell your children that Mommy & Daddy buy them their presents for Christmas instead of letting them assume some mythical jolly old man does? Why is this deception necessary? Why do we adults continue to let ourselves be victims of commercialism? Is it we parents that just love to see the faces of our sweet children tearing into massive gifts & thinking about Santa & his reindeer? Has our perception of being "controlled" by outside influences tarnished our own thinking process?

No harm, whatever, but wouldn't it be more effective to tell the kids, that while Santa is a myth, that he is supposed to represent the spirit of giving, as Jesus gave his all, than to try to force feed them a conspiracy theory, while all their little friends are delighting in their belief in Santa??

It's every individual's right to choose to give gifts at Christmas. It's also every individual's right to believe in Santa Claus if they so choose. But to continue to make "gift-giving" the main focus of Christmas is abominable. Remember what the true meaning of Christmas is..."Jesus is the Reason for the Season."

The "true" meaning of Christmas, is whatever the individual chooses to make it.

Just look & listen to the greetings we receive today: Happy Holidays, Season's Greetings, etc.!

Political correctness has gotten totally out of hand, to the point of becoming another religion! I say "Merry Christmas", but if others want to say "Happy Holidays", "Season's Greetings", or whatever, I say whatever works, for you! If they start condemning my greeting, then we have a problem!

[quoteChristmas may as well be called "Jolly Days." Why should we go into debt just to make sure our kids have the latest toy craze & thereby line the pockets of the very companies that have overcharged us & taken away jobs from the United States which has thrown us into great economic turmoil?[/quote]

I agree, it is totally stupid to get sucked into the commercialization of Christmas, but think that is more a function of today's worship of "stuff" and the problem of parents teaching their kids an entitlement mentality and letting them think the universe revolves around them. There is nothing wrong with today's self centered kids (and adults) that telling them "NO" a few thousand times, during their formative years, rather than cater to their every whim, could not have helped.

"Let's break this cycle of mandatory "gift-giving" & choose to do good deeds & help to put food & clothing on the backs of children in our own country. Poverty is all around us, you don't have to see starving children in other countries. The United States of America has children living in rat-infested homes, on the streets, starving, being driven to drug addiction to escape their plight. Thousands of American children suffering from illnesses & never getting the medical attention they need.

There is nothing "mandatory" about gift giving. Giving to poor children is a great idea, but the greatest gift most of them could receive would be to get them out of their drug infested homes, and neighborhoods, and provide them the opportunity of a decent life, but that also seems to be politically incorrect. IMO most of those kids are where they are due to irresponsible, uncaring parents, who are more interested in their drug business or where their next fix is coming from, than their kids. It is, more often than not, the example of parents which gets kids into drugs. The escape part is the excuse taught them by their parents. That is not to say, that peer pressure is not a factor.

When I was a kid, most of the kids were thrilled with an apple, an orange and simple toy under the tree. All our parents lived very frugally, but no one considered themselves to be "poor". Back then, there was no such thing as welfare, food stamps, or other government assistance, and family and neighbors had to help each other. Everyone had a garden, and if one person had beans, another corn, and someone else had a hog, calf or yard chickens to put on the table, everyone ate.

Let us start a new holiday...Children of God Day! Give a needy child food, a blanket, shelter & not an iPod.

My wish for 2009 is "Peace on Earth, Goodwill to Man."

I totally agree with your latest holiday, but it won't replace Christmas. Please don't anyone get your feelings hurt by anything I have said (typed?). It is all just my opinion and you have the same right to your opinion as I do. I hope you all had a Merry Christmas, and that you have a happy and prosperous NEW YEAR!

From my experience, so far, you don't have to be a blind follower of some other religion for the Ramsters to "feel so much superior". My daughter has flatly referred to me as "ignorant",

yes....this comes from people being indoctrinated into cults, as a general rule.
You know grandfather, sometimes I wish you had a video camera so when your daughter acts like this,
she has "proof" of her arrogance for later on.


the rest of the post, I only have this story as commentary.
and you all know, I am not coming from any dogmatic position.
only as an ex student of RSE for 19 years.

I entered RSE when my son was 1 yr old.
I had decided I did not want any capitalistic holiday pressures from the git go, even before we moved
to Yelm.
So, I pondered this question about Santa carefully.
How to present the idea of Santa/Christmas to my son.
I spent many hours thinking about the consequences, the utopian philosophies, the
current affairs of the state (of the US) etc.

I never once told him a big fat guy in a red suit came down the chimney.
I never read him fairy tales.
I did, however, reiterate, according to RSE, "the spirit of Christmas."
He never saw "The Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown."
I never read him the bible. (He does know a few Jewish traditions from stories in History class
at the Waldorf School).
We did watch "How the Grinch Stole Christmas" every week before December 25.

One day, it was my turn to drive the carpool into school.
It was a blustery October day, late in the fall. Several children in the car.
One kid blurts out from the back, "Did you make your Christmas list?"
Another kid responds, " Dude. There is no Santa!"
The car is silent. Several kids are restless.
My son is in the front passenger seat and he is 9 years old.
He looks over to see the look on my face.
Tears are streaming down his cheeks.
I look at him, as only Mommy's can do.
My heart feels as if that last brown leaf that just hit the windshield
seared the bottom half of our hearts in one fell swoop.
Tears run down my face.
I had failed as a parent. I failed in the spirit of Christmas.

And I still have to get these kids to school.
Dear God, get me there in one piece.

We arrive at the school.
The other kids clamor out of the car.
My son and I sit in stone silence.
We look out through the car to a very bleak fall day.
There is nothing but stark gray in the horizon.
What a poopy day for an impromptu revelation about Santa.

I decide to pull him out of school for the day in that barren moment.
I run through the courtyard into the classroom.
I tell the teacher we had a "justifiable spiritual" emergency
and that I would be with my son for the day.

I take him downtown Olympia on a long walk, looking at and gathering leaves.
I buy a nerf football.
We toss that around in the park.
I take him to "The Dancing Goats" coffee shop for a hot chocolate.
We go to the pier to see all the ships preparing for winter.
We spend most of the day in silence but often glancing at each other
as if to double check if each was really there.
We held hands while gathering leaves.

This was, and was not the way I wanted to tell him
that Santa did not exist.
It was the best I could do in the moment.