Drunvalo

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ah, Drunvalo!!! It has been many years since I've looked into Bernie Perona's spiritual escapades.
Bernie is around my age, came of age with a college degree in fine arts @1970 after dropping out of math/science track. . We are on different tracks today by far.
Bernie may or may not be a nice guy, and someone may or may not have a "good experience" with him and his teachings. neither him being nice or 'you' having a good experience around him has anything to do with the validity or rigor of his form of mysticism. I'd call it pseudo-mysticism. His merkaba [chariot] meditiation is little else than what the Eckankar sect calls "soul travel" or what I call self-hypnosis/self-suggestion.
It is another ride in the New Age spiritual amusement park, maybe not dangerous or as addictive as some, but nevertheless, once you exit the gates to go home you have to pay to get back in for the experience. I do not wish to belabor this...
If you wish to get a better grip on mysticism, read Evelyn Underhill, esp her 1911 book by that title. She was like "us" in her youth when she joined the Order of the Golden Dawn for a time before her mature spiritual phase kicked in. If you wish to discover a more sophisticated approach to Jewish mysticism/kabbalah,
I recommend starting with Kenneth Hanson (1998) Kabbalah: Three thousand years of mystic tradition; Gershom Sholem 1977) Zohar: The book of splendor; and Gershom Sholem's defiitive book Kabbalah.
Of course, if you'd rather rely on personal experience, you can always pay Bernie---he'll sell you a ticket to ride.
I watched a few videos of Drunvalo speaking just now of his mayan connections and insights into the calendar as well as about how he got into native American stuff via Taos Pueblo teachers [mainly the peyote sect or Native American Church] over a14 year period. What I did not know about him was his experience in the early 1970s or so of & 2 Spheres, one green the other purple, that he now calls angels or angel guides, that &; to him telepathically. He then claims to have gone to 70 spiritual teachers and & tribal elders on his quest for the truth. After watching him speak, observing his word choice and insecure body language carefully, I am inclined to feel that this poor guy,
Bernie, had a psychotic break as a young adult and has not yet recovered. This does not make him dysfunctional as someone with, chronic schizophrenia, but it does speak of a man with a disorder that has made him spiritually preoccupied if not obsessed. His crude revision of Christianity and Judaism something I expect to hear from any average new age cult leader, not from an inspired mystic.

Joe

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Thanks Joe,
I suspect many of the......

A-hole in society

have found their calling in the “channeling” business...
Makes me wonder what diagnoses Judth would be categorized with if admitted to a psych hospital?
Although I think a psych prison ward would be more fitting...

David.

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the original point here was JZ using some evil merkaba/spinning triads, not necessarily Drunvalo. Thanks for the specifics to research mysticism and kaballah -- i was only able to recommend the topic, not the authors. Sacred geometry is sacred geometry and not made up by Bernie or Asshole or Whatever his name/claim to fame/ mistaken identity or psychosis. And a triad is a triad and not a merkabah. And Peter Paul and Mary were far more than 'entertainment' - no matter what their names or psychosis - they sang the soul of the 60's, they sang a harmony of three, they loved beyond peepees and holes -- and I paid far more to them than Drunvalo. Isn't more important that we learn to know and trust our Self, to recognize what is 'off the mark' and what is 'on'? to recognize the red flags? Isn't it true that there is no such thing as a human being that isn't both/simultaneously saint and sinner?
And if all Bernie is is a psychotic - don't you wish Joe that all 'your' psychotics were so capable of functioning in the world?

AD60

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Like to read about various religions, philosophies and disciplines, but if they make me feel as though I am being persuaded in some way, against my better judgment, I put them aside. I had no discomfort reading several books on the Kabalah, and, although, I am not recommending or advocating for it to anyone here, I have respect for people on that path.
Raised a Christian, I often had discomfort with some stories and strictures in the Bible, while other portions of it were, to me, beautiful, and I also have respect for that path. Hearing about the Death Star Merkhaba filled me with grave misgivings. I can entertain the thought that such things are possible, but not the thought that learning how to perform such a feat could do anybody any good. It does sound somewhat different from C & E, although I do not downplay the possibility that C & E does harm. I wonder, isn't there a difference between following somebody's teachings and being in their thrall?
Are all Gurus and Spiritual Teachers seeking power? Aren't some of them acting from altruistic motives?
And, does getting paid for your work become wrong when you are a spiritual leader?

Lost in Space

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first of all Joe I apologize for being a little snippy this morning....
secondly - I really don't, nor ever wanted to, defend Drunvalo -- I don't know him as guru or teacher or mystic or even as a spiritual leader; I certainly don't know his psychology; and I have no evidence that he's set himself up to be worhipped or followed or somehow sainted; so I don't want to defend him. I only wanted facts presented and not hearsay re the merkabah meditation that he teaches -- I don't do that meditation, I don't know if it's anything special and I don't want to defend it - I just didn't want it to be misrepresented. You bring up interesting points though - what is the difference of between liturgy, chanting, meditation, prayer or any other spiritual practice that has the intention of putting a person into an altered state and receptive to the Divine, and self-hypnosis? Seems to me there's a fine line. ...
but that's also another topic the moderators would have to move somewhere else!!

AD60

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I made some edits: ad60: gracious apology accepted but not needed.
This area of human mysticism is highly sensitive and utterly subjective because it is about & Being& [be still and know that I AM that I AM; TAT TVAM ASI--I am that].
The second we utter a thought, a word, an artistic stroke, a musical note, a step to begin a dance we muddy up the purity of that state. Christians call this original sin or breaking the rule of the original Edenic State in the Garden. Thus we are all sinners. I know that most Evangelicals have a cruder way of grasping this concept of "we are all sinners", but ask any Christian mystic and he or she will recognize what I mean. The Hindu traditions recognize this also but rather than love the Hindu mystic depends on refinement of self as in yoga [much like western alchemists who seek to refine lead into gold]. The process is driven by an urge to love our Source or the Atman-Brahman identification but not necessarily through love of one another. Hindus might call this dharma or duty to one another that emerges as love in the end, thus the high success rate of arranged marriages in India. But we must speak, dance, write, touch in order to relate and love--love cannot exist without relationship. Love is not Being but a way, if not the only way, to pure Being. We love a great symphony because it approaches what we mystically sense [not know] as somehow a closer reflection of that pure being we seek.
My gripe with the Drunvalos is their claim to fame as true mystics, when in fact they cannot even get the history of another religion straight much less manage a cult or their personal lives well. A mystical encounter with an angel or spiritual force should not make us stupider in the real world. Look at what happened to JZ--she is a mess and her philosophy reflects her disordered mind. Her facelifts are evidence enough that she does not get it. I grasp what you mean---even an amoeba and perhaps a rock participates in the transcendent reality--they cannot but help to do it, but humans are different.
We left the garden of Being and of mere instinct to forge an impossible reunion with being through our own effort. The Christian message says it cannot be done, thus the eternal death and resurrection of God for our sakes as a gift--it has already been done for us in Eternity as well as in history. Our choice, our freedom, is to reject or accept that gift. We reject it by replacing God with our self---iow, the Buddhist says we must empty the self [extinction] to accept nirvana.
So my take on what you say about your getting in touch with your inner "Self" is not to disparage it but to ask that we include an intelligent extension of self into every means possible to get it (the pure inspiration) "Right" or what the Buddhist calls right mind, right action, right speech, etc. As an artist I may have the exact same inspiration from pure Being as Bernini had, but I'll be dam*ed as a liar if I claim to be able to do anything as magnificent as his Ecstasy of St Teresa. That's my mind as right mind
http://www.artchive.com/artchive/B/bern ... a.jpg.html

Joe

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believe it or not, i think we agree!! Be Still - yes.to forge an impossible reunion with being through our own effort. ....it cannot be done I'll take it even a step further.... If, among other things, the NT provides role models -- the Magnificat/Mary says it all - Be it unto me according to Thy will. (I do understand that this 'conversation' may offend or turn off some folks - And, I appreciate Joe's understanding of a diversity of religions - and I'm seeing more that he sees the commonalities. And, Joe speaks Christian - so i will too.) When we have that utter allowing, then the Divine can come through in human form - a symphony, a hug, a smile, a Benini, a helpful post..

yay agreement.... More on mysticism--I am reviewing a book by John Horgan (2003) Rational Mysticism. he's a science writer who also experimented with all the "alternatives" in spirituality in the early 1970s. Good book so far. re mysticism in Horgan's chapter about postmodernism: The cryptic Ludwig Wittgenstein said: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." p 38 Old Jewish wisdom: "A Talmudic legend about four learned rabbis who are allowed to visit paradise makes the point: One rabbi dies outright, one goes mad, and one becomes a heretic. A single rabbi leaves heaven with a blissful, peaceful heart, his faith confirmed." p 29
yay back at you Joe. Thanks. It also occurred to me this morning - a significant dynamic of 'evaluating' a situation is - what is my Ideal? - What is the core 'value'/framework through which I live my life/ what is the "plume line" - physically, mentally, spiritually. Fortunately I never gave up my deepest Ideals during my years under the spell of JZK Inc - which ultimately, finally contributed to my being able to leave. ... And, yes, ironically, it was the same Ideals which initially allowed me to be hooked!! - because it seemed that JZ personally and Ramtha had the same Ideals --- slowly slowly slowly, and suddenly, it became undeniably clear that neither JZK inc personality had the same Ideals at all!!!

AD60

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I presented a PowerPoint lecture about Gnostic influences on modern cults at the ICSA conf in NY a few weeks ago. Here are notes re The Gnostic Movement from one of the slides I used:

Roots in Gurdjieff and Theosophism Victor Manuel Gomez Rodriguez (Columbian/Mexican: 1917-77) aka. “Samael Aun Woer” Joaquin Amortegui (Columbian: 1926-2000) aka. “Rabolu” Mark Pritchard (Welsh: born 1934, a current leader) “Beelzebub” aka. “Belzebuub” http://www.belzebuub.com/ International: Hundreds of branches mostly Mexico, Latin America, Greece, Spain[/quote:21b0cb99e8] And, a slide outlining Gnostic history--mentioned RSE: [quote:21b0cb99e8]Oriental religion—Jnana Yoga, Buddhism Pythagorean community at Krotona—(500 BCE) proto-Gnostic Gospel of John; letters of Paul—Gnostic elements Manicheans (242 CE)—radical dualism; rejected by St. Augustine Paulicians (657 CE) Cathars/Albigensians (11th Century) Rosicrucians—’Christian Rosencreutz’ (1616) Freemasons (1717) Theosophy—Madame Blavatsky (1875) New Thought; Unity (1890) Anthroposophy—Rudolf Steiner (1912) New Age (20th Century) Carl G. Jung “Self”-transformation groups: est, Scientology (1960s) Bible cults—Pentecostal, fundamentalist Ramtha School of Enlightenment (1980s) Dr Wayne Dyer: Intention and “Source” The Gnostic Movement: founder Rabolu—1970s; Mark Pritchard/Beelzebub

from another slide in my ICSA lecture---- Cathars (10th to 12th century) are often mentioned as a benign sect that was persecuted by the Catholic Inquisition. That is true but what the Cathars believed and practiced is often overlooked, especially by the New Age crowd. This is from someone who is a modern Gnostic:

Objection to the Cathars was not strictly theological in as much of what the Cathars taught and practiced had a very destabilizing effect on society. The dualism of the Cathars was also the basis of their moral teaching. Man, they taught, is a living contradiction. Hence, the liberation of the soul from its captivity in the body is the true end of our being. To attain this, suicide is commendable; it was customary among them in the form of the endura (starvation). The extinction of bodily life on the largest scale consistent with human existence is also a perfect aim. As generation propagates the slavery of the soul to the body, perpetual chastity should be practiced, by all Cathars, at all times http://www.glasgowgnostic.com)

Yes, unfortunately, it often takes time and experience to see the consequences of submission to bliss or what seems so right at first. An ancient adage was reiterated a few times by William James in his classic study & Varieties of Religious Experience;. Horgan in his Practical Mysticism states: "James concluded that neurology can neither prove nor disprove the validity of specific mystical visions. If a mystic suffers from mental illness or brain damage, that does not mean that her visions are worthless delusions, any more than the mental illness of poets, artists, or scientists invalidates their achievements. We must judge these visions by their philosophical and moral consequences.

By their fruits shall ye know them, not by their roots. --quoting W James

Joe

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Moving on a step further from anything that I have said before, after reading the profound thoughts in all of these postings, with none of which I can disagree, even though they appear, at times to disagree with each other, I really have nothing additional, or original, to add. So, thank you, everyone, from me.